If a woman had the hots for you, would you even know it?
Readership: Single men;
Out of all the discussion of Scott’s post, Probabilities (2020-2-24), it has become evident that a man’s ability to detect and read female IOI’s is a crucial factor in determining his socio-sexual life trajectory.
Comprehensively, an IOI is anything that uniquely reveals her humility and heart-trust towards you, which are absolutely essential to establish a stable, meaningful relationship. Women feel vulnerable in this state, so they tend to think they have made their interest clear. But in fact, men are generally obtusely inept at detecting this emotional-spiritual state.
This information has been sparsely covered in the secular Manosphere, and virtually untouched in the Christian ‘sphere (to my present knowledge). So here’s a list of female IOI’s to watch out for, broken down by category.
- Acting extraordinarily clumsy, silly, or stupid, especially if she’s laughing at herself for being that way.
- Laughing or giggling (genuinely) at little things that no one else is laughing about, especially things you do or say.
- Glorification – Others may notice that she has changed as a result of being with you. If so, someone might say she’s a different person around you, or something to that effect.
- She feels embarrassed to talk to others about how she feels about you.
- Dilated pupils.
- Extended eye contact (more than 3-5 seconds). If she’s talking to you directly, the timeframe for an IOI is extended to 6-10 seconds.
- Eye contact combined with a warm smile.
- Frequent Gaze – In a public setting, you catch her staring at you from across the room more than 2-3 times within half an hour.
- Looking at you with a gaping mouth.
- S1ut Eye™ – Wide eyed, and looking like a deer in the headlights. Be sure to verify that she only looks at you this way, and not at every guy with a SMV higher than her own.
- Staring – She can’t take her eyes off of you.
Non-Verbal Communication (AKA Body Language)
- Animated antics when interacting with you, especially twisting her body in a rhythmic fashion, jumping or skipping, or lifting her hands above her head.
- Anxiously smoothing or straightening her clothing, or checking her hair and makeup, as if preparing herself to meet you.
- Loosening or unbuttoning her collar.
- Mindlessly stroking or playing with her necklace or other accessories.
- She eagerly takes advantage of an opportunity to hug you.
- She attempts to communicate with you using hand movements and/or facial expressions. (BTW, if you can’t understand it, just make some weird gesture back. Don’t ignore it or let yourself appear confused.)
- Stroking or massaging her body in an amused or nervous fashion.
- In east Asia, if a woman strokes a man’s lower leg with her foot, she’s inviting him to have a sexual relationship.
Physical IOI’s (Position, Posture, or Habits)
- Her toes point towards you when she’s standing near you.
- Her knees point towards you when she’s sitting near you.
- Her shoulders are squarely facing you.
- She moves her hands excitedly whenever she’s talking with you.
- Open body posture – She shows the palms of the hands, the inside of the wrists and lower arms.
- Flushed or reddened face, neck, or upper chest area.
- She assumes a military posture while in your presence.
- Playfully or nervously touching her hair, face, or neck.
- Breathing patterns change, either deeply, erratically, or she exhibits shortness of breath.
- Increased pulse rate. You can feel this if you have the chance to hold her wrist, or put your forearm around her neck.
- Touching your body casually – brushing against you while passing, sitting next to you with body contact, etc.
- Touching your body intentionally, especially your arms, chest, shoulders or head.
- Soon after meeting you, she starts paying more attention to her appearance, e.g. getting her hair done, wearing makeup, buying new clothes, dressing more attractively, etc.
- Chewing food with her mouth open when she’s sitting near a guy she likes at a restaurant. (To make sure she’s not an uncultured, low-IQ cow, watch how she behaves when he is not around, or ask her friends if she usually has this habit.)
- Deviating from her schedule to spend (more) time with you. Leaving work early; staying up late.
- Going out of her way to interact with you, like crossing the street, or breaking away from her circle of friends.
- Losing her train of thought while talking to you, especially mid-sentence.
- Sitting near you when given a choice of sitting elsewhere.
- Unnecessary or exaggerated acts of kindness. For example, giving you a gift out of the blue; Serving you a drink on her own initiative.
- Asking for help – Example: “Would you help me move some furniture?” or “Would you come help me bring the tea into the living room?”
- Coded Speech – She says something that has a double meaning. This falls under plausible deniability, but if she does it frequently, it’s an IOI.
- Freudian Slips (AKA parapraxis) – Casually and innocently using a word which sounds similar to the word intended, but which reveals her deeper psyche. For example, she says, “I’m twenty-sex years old… I mean, twenty-six.” Or “Would you like to go over me again?” (Using “me” instead of “it”.)
- Loaded Language – Rhetoric used to influence an audience by using words and phrases with strong connotations associated with them in order to invoke an emotional response and/or exploit stereotypes. For example, saying your name or the pronoun “you” in a drawn out, emotionally flighty, or flattering way. Or if she says “It’s sooo hot in here!” it could be an IOI.
- Nicknames – Using terms of endearment, especially pet names or flattering nicknames.
- Pointed Suggestions – Example: “I like to play tennis. Maybe you should try playing tennis (with me) sometime.”
- Secret Language – She says something that either implies something else or has an esoteric meaning known only to you, which usually brings to mind an earlier conversation or interaction you had together.
- Subliminal Speech – A language of the heart that is extremely rare and hard to explain. Only very intelligent and sophisticated women do this. I’ve never seen it described anywhere.
- Suggestive Innuendos – Examples: “Maybe I’ll see you there!” or “If you need anything, I’m just a phone call away!”
- Word Semantics – Playing with fuzzy semantics to form suggestive euphemisms. A woman will often do this to test your intelligence, your level of experience, and your awareness. For example, she just spilled her drink all over her dress. Instead of saying, I need to go clean up, etc., she says, “I need to take this dress off.”
Tips for Detecting and Reading IOI’s
- Watch for IOI’s using your peripheral vision.
- Be aware of when you can feel the weight of her stare.
- The best IOI’s from the best quality women are given when she’s unaware of sending you an IOI.
- No one woman will show all of these IOI’s. Her personality determines which set of IOI’s she displays. Extroverted personalities will be more expressive and animated, while introverted ladies will show IOI’s indicating her amusement.
- Her psychological state also has an impact. For example, if she’s sad or depressed, then IOI’s will be curtailed. Also of note, women who are intoxicated will show IOI’s more freely and be less discriminating in who they show them to.
- IOI’s that are blatantly obvious should be interpreted as a red flag. For example, I worked at a summer camp when I was in college. On one occasion, the head cook (40-ish and married) asked me to accompany her to deliver some food. On the way back, she casually asked me, “Wanna climb in the back of the truck and ride me?” I laughed it off as a joke. She was probably just checking her own SMV, but I’m sure she was half-serious.
Tips for making yourself more likely to Receive and Detect IOI’s
These achievements alone will do miracles for your ability to detect IOI’s.
- Learn to be heart-led. Don’t get lost in the vanity of your mind.
- Develop your spiritual discernment and wisdom to know what’s going on around you.
- Be consciously aware of your desire. Accept it as a part of your nature.
- Become comfortable with your body and appearance. Dress better if necessary.
- Love yourself (and her) enough to act with grace and dignity.
- Value yourself enough not to chase after low hanging fruit.
- Respect yourself enough not to waste your time pursuing any woman who is married, or who isn’t giving you clear IOI’s from the get go.
- Trust God with yourself (i.e. your sexual nature). Don’t kill opportunities before they appear.
Note: I may edit or add to this list in the future.
- Σ Frame: List of Slut Tells (2017-10-15)
Pray tell, what does the acronym IOI mean? ( I did not see it defined at the top.) Thanks.
I’m too goofy today.
IOI = Indicator of Interest
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Is it ok for me to admit that it’s sad this post has to be made?
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Are you suggesting this knowledge is innate? Does it not ring true in your clinical experience? If some guys don’t know this, might that explain the number of books on how to meet girls (and I’m not referring to “Game”)?
Scott, now that you mention it, I do sense a sadness. But it’s not about this post. It’s more of a diffuse grief over the severity of the cultural disintegration that lends pertinency to this post.
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Your video about “meet cute” Scott answers your question.
Mindlessly stroking or playing with her necklace or other accessories.
or with her long hair. For the few women that have long hair, drawing your attention to her glory (1 Cor 11:14-16) is likely an attempt to maximize her appeal to you.
Flushed … upper chest area
Saw this one time in a woman that had just finished jogging. (So it was not an IOI.) Not sure why, but I found the sight very attractive.
Many IOI’s will come off as very attractive or adorable. There are a few that will make her annoying or troublesome. This will also depend on her mood, her personality, and her level of emotional/spiritual maturity.
Let’s discuss your tips.
This advice is useless for the men at the bottom who don’t receive IOIs. IOIs exist because women are highly selective. For example, the OKCupid rankings suggest that women may only give the time of day to the top 20% of men. Perhaps that isn’t completely representative of the whole population, but the debate is the distribution, not the fact.
As Jason has noted on a hundred occasions, the invisible 3/10 man isn’t going to be able to improve to the 9/10 that every woman notices when he enters the room, no matter how much they follow the “alpha / Game / Frame / social cues / the secret language of women playbook.” It is not honest to blame men because women don’t find them attractive or tell them that all they have to do is change their physical appearance, etc.
This is another way of saying that non-elite men shouldn’t bother trying to find a woman. Unattractive men shouldn’t chase after easy women and they shouldn’t pursue women out of their league. That leaves them with nothing.
It’s becoming a too common criticism that if I had followed the advice on this blog, I wouldn’t have married. This is a real problem. I can’t recall ever receiving any of the IOIs in this list (maybe I forgot one or two?). Despite all that, I somehow managed to get two women to want to marry me.
IOIs are not essential. As I’ve said in many previous comments, the focus on raw and emotional sexual attraction utterly misses the point of a biblical marriage. I’ll quote Jason’s comment again because it is important:
IMO, this hypersexualization of relationships is more damaging than it is helpful. Right now there are a lot of people stuck at home with people they are sexually attracted to, but don’t actually like. Sadly, I suspect a lot of divorces will result.
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Look, my situation and the situation of men like me (the bottom 20%) know good and well by this point in their lives this article that Sigma has posted really doesn’t apply to them.
There is another group of men who probably needs a “dust-off” of sorts and maybe this would help. Men in Scott’s tier just don’t understand why people don’t get this, or just know it.
I think it’s helpful in a sense. Many men know how to recognize these IOI’s (even men at my level) but also know these IOI’s are for Scott, J Crew models, guys who have a ‘who farted’ look on their face…..
Many women know they have ZERO consequences for their behavior (christian or not) and have the luxury to give IOI’s to men…..many of these men that get these IOI’s are indeed the “ride” and “carefree time for her” and she knows she’ll be held to zero standards.
This right here demonstrates that women CAN help who they fall for. Game says “they cannot”
I don’t have a problem with this list so to speak……great if you can get this from a woman. If not, guy in question will have to navigate the best he can, deal, or hope for luck. The more frustrated of the lot in my situation shouldn’t even read this….it tends to cause more pain.
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In America the normative psycho-social developmental trajectory looks something like this (If you are of late boomer, GENX and early millenial)
From the time you first start interacting with the opposite sex, it’s usually experienced as a group. The boys have cooties, the girls girls have cooties, you chase each other around on the playground at school, its harmless.
As individuals, (you all at whatever pace based on your personality and temperament), start to notice the stark contrasts between yourself and the other by way of identifying with your same sax parent and noticing that you are not like your opposite sex parent in many, important ways.
Your parents relationship is either a good or bad model for this (or they are divorced or barely get along or something) and you continue to develop under those conditions. Biology and time are relentlessly moving on. Regardless, you begin to notice that you feel all gooey and weird inside around the other–the same ones who had cooties just a few years ago.
Around 10-11-12 you start passing notes, going behind behind buildings, holding hands and having first kisses, and so on.
After junior high, you begin to have more serious time together, maybe lose your virginity, have a steady, long term girlfriend feel the pain of a break up. Experience the discomfort of things like jealously when you don’t know what they are doing, wanting to be with them all the time, stuff like that.
Those phone calls that go on forever about stupid stuff, planning the next trip to lake in the back of the truck.
You emerge from that and maybe have a few more of those, maybe a ONS or two, and eventually you get married.
All of that happens in the milieu of young people being thrown together in semi-private situations (School, high school work/jobs/college/etc) and, normally, nobody has to explain how it works. You don’t think much of it at the time. You are just doing what comes naturally.
That girl from the “meet cute” video, Angelica? For brevity I didn’t even tell half the story. During the lead up to me deciding whether or not I wanted to ask her out, when I would walk by her work area, she would drop whatever she was doing and run across the lawn to the fence to get a glimpse and wave at me, jumping up and down like a puppy excited to see its owner come home. It was so friggin cute. Made my face turn red every time. And still I wasn’t sure.
After several weeks of that, and hearing more stories from people about the things she was saying about me, I happened to walk into the food trailer where we all had lunch. She was sitting there with several of her friends, and as I grabbed my food I headed to her table, and they all cleared out. Only she was left, so I sat next to her and finally began a conversation over more than the previous 4 second ones we had before that. She was nervous and because of the way I slid into the booth, she was trapped. I noticed a little bracelet on her wrist, so I reached over grabbed and flipped it over to read the inscription. “With love”
I made a very smart ass dig about her having a boy friend and she spent the next 20 minutes nervously explaining that she absolutely did not have have one and that it a bracelet she borrowed from her sister. I finally said something like “relax. You are hyperventilating.”
The whole story took about 3 weeks, but it was so natural, so smooth even in all its awkwardness.
I’m often amused by reminiscent songs from that time now. Kenney Chesney, for example is about my age and he sings “I go back” which contains this passage:
I go back to the feel of the 50 yard line, a blanket, a girl and some raspberry wine, wishing time would stop right in it’s tracks.
And I think. Yep, Did the blanket and 50 yard line thing. Didn’t everyone?
One of the sad things I have learned coming across the manosphere is the answer to that question. No, they didn’t.
No, they didn’t.
Hell no, they didn’t.
I think I was “over-churched”. Or at least, over-“churchian”-churched. It was drilled into the young men to treat women with respect.
And that women do not want sex, or even physical touching other than hugs. So if a couple is being physical (even apart from sexual touching), it is because the man is being pushy. Or because she is being a dutiful wife, enduring the attentions of her husband despite her feelings on the matter.
With this kind of repeated message, men get the idea that they are not supposed to feel sexual desire for the women they see. And not to pursue them unless you have “purer” reasons/desires.
It was rather confusing to me when I actually had a short relationship with a mid-teens young woman. She was acting “all wrong”. She was the one pushing for kisses, and dropping increasingly direct hints about sexual touching. Pure, Christian young women are supposedly not like this.
And even more confusing when I had other relationships, and they almost all acted the same “wrong” way. Out of about 10 relationships, only 2 did not push for sex. And I don’t classify as a high-status hunk or rock-star; I’m just an average guy. I play a musical instrument, which is appealing to some women, but I’ll never be even slightly famous for that. Think “nerd”, not “dreamboat”.
Plus the complete lack of info being given to the young men about what women find attractive, other than lies. In one college age Bible study, the teacher asked the men and women what they found attractive. The only comments given were the spiritual maturity of the other person. So the teacher concluded, “So what is most attractive to men and women is a strong Christian.” Bullshit. That is merely all that was acceptable to be spoken in a churchian environment.
Yes, a mature character and good morals may be necessary for her to agree to proceed to marriage; but in my experience it as absolutely irrelevant to getting you a first date.
Plus the “churches” that either deliberately interfered with relationships, or at least made not effort to support them. I was in one college-aged group; the leader said their leadership team had been discussing me and the frequency with which I chose to speak with the women of the group; they disapproved. While I was developing friends with several men too, apparently that was all I “should” be doing. The women were all off-limits.
When we deliberately say that there is something wrong with pursuing marriage when you are 20-24, something drastic needs to change. Pretty disgusting when a young man can get better advice on how to get to a marriage relationship from a PUA than from his “church” advisors/leaders.
Only time I remember any church environment expressing an openness to relationships between the men/women was a church camp I was at for a week.
And as far as anyone encouraging the women to consider the men available in the group? Never.
Allowing a young man to lead an activity to show off a skill he had to possibly gain attention from a woman? Never.
Having the leader say, “Tommy, you know quite a bit about OT prophecy / life of Jesus / NT commands / whatever, how about you answer John’s question”? (To show respect from another man toward Tommy.) Never.
Scott and JPF:
I’ll agree with JPF. He describes very closely the mindset/framework I was taught growing up and assumed was true pretty much until I found the manosphere a couple years ago.
What Scott describes is pretty much exactly the opposite of how I grew up. Opposite-sex relationships (other than “friends”) were all but discouraged (until some unknown older age) and anything physical was definitely frowned on as inappropriate, except maybe the occasional quick hug. I would have considered Scott’s experience very “wordly” (and maybe it was to some degree, depending on how you look at it). As I was growing up, whenever I saw other people my age being physical with the opposite sex in pretty much any manner, I just knew they weren’t being very Christian/moral/Godly.
With a lot of reading in the Manosphere, I’ve realized that, in fact, things like attraction, beauty, sexuality, physical touching, etc. are things that aren’t inherently wrong. In fact, some of it seems necessary for a certain amount of development. It seems that the attitudes and motivations behind them are what matter more (i.e. PUA vs. attracting/being attractive to a Godly spouse). But despite what I know I now have to work on rebuilding how I act based on that knowledge. Which is why I am grateful for the many words that have been spent to write articles like this one to explain what might otherwise be obvious concepts learned by experience.
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I am coming to the conclusion that this kind of advice/teaching was/is intended to preemptively defuse the embarrassing situations of premature pregnancies, male infatuation, and any possible accusations of harassment. It is probably accepted to be practical wisdom, intended to dampen the ravaging sex drive of high SMV men, and offered as a kindness to lower SMV men. But it is ultimately harmful because it’s a bald faced lie about the sexual nature of women. It is also lazy, because they don’t have to go to the trouble to educate the young men any further.
a) I think Jack’s assumptions are likely valid, for at least large portions of the religious leaders pushing the “not here” message.
b) intended to preemptively defuse the embarrassing situations of premature pregnancies
Yeah, I don’t see any indication they were successful here, either in my peer group when I was in school or afterward. In fact I see evidence to the contrary. Although, at least in the 1990s, there was at least some shame involved in the failures.
No, this was common stuff in the 90s and 00s out of the Joshua Harris “I kissed dating goodbye” in the evangelical movement.
Defusing things like harassment is a symptom more of the ’10s and “MeToo” more than when most of us were teenagers.
“One of the sad things I have learned coming across the man-o-sphere is the answer to that question. No, they didn’t.”
Many didn’t. I won’t say most but a large swath didn’t. This is where I personally believe why many men slowly came “to” the man-o-sphere looking for these answers. Not of just “why it didn’t happen” but answers of “how” to make it happen.
The answers and helps worked for some. Not others. Some it caused more problems, and some it was indeed “too late”
Accepting the “too late” thing probably is the hardest pill to swallow for many men. I include myself in that. How does a man at 35, 40, 45, 49 go out and try to attract a woman with a low “n” count, with a visceral look, dating, meeting and applying the knowledge gained from man-o-sphere sites…….
Would any of the men here approve of their 18 year old daughter being approached by a 35 year old man or older who loved god….served in church? A decent career? Sure, some may but most would not accept that or want that. Yet, a man at this age is expected to find someone like this?
More variables. More questions. “Meet Cute” is a good way to start this, and again credit to Scott for bringing it up this way. A lot of it is up to fate, and not “giving up” but there is a point where one looks more foolish and desperate than looking like an Alpha, or a real man, or trying to live like a rock n’ roll song from the 1970’s or high school at the age of 35, 40, 49……..
Going overseas is an option I suppose but not a reality for most.
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I got a different message when I was active and dutiful in the Salvation Army, being a “good” soldier.
Over and over and over our Officer (pastor) in my local Corps (church) told us men to “ask women out, they don’t bite….and we have so many mighty women of God here who are looking / wanting a husband!”
Our Corps actually had more single men than women.
The women would complain at Sunday school and gatherings at homes “the men won’t ask us out”
What I noticed was…….if a man asked a woman out, and the man was not already “pre-selected” as okay enough to date by her and her peers….she would run to the Officer and say “please tell such and such to not ask me out or bother me, I don’t like him that way!”
And the Soldier would be spoken to by the Officer and the “leaders” in the Corps to leave the women alone. The answer would be also “pray on it, and let God lead you to a woman to date”
Then the next week, during the message, the men would be told to “ask women out, they don’t bite”
The women were never instructed to “ummm ladies, if man asks you out on a friendly date why are you refusing?”
This was never addressed. What was never said by these ladies was “we want only hot, attractive men asking us out that happen to be christian”
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On the overchurched thing.
I went to a private Christian school from 4th to 9th grade–right in the heat of those developmental years of which I am referring.
The school was a typical, tradcon factory. Heavy metal is the devil. SSSSSSSEXXXXX is the devil. Chapel every morning. Shirts with collars and slacks for the boys. Skirts had to be three inches below the knees.
And we all received the same messaging. We all knew better. All of us thought it was stupid.
Heavy metal is the devil.
I remember that. And then, what to do when bands like Petra came out…. They should have pointed out the sin in the lyrics, rather than the style of music. That would have been applicable broadly, without the oops when a Christian band started using that style of music. (Assuming it as valid to refer to heavy metal as “music”…)
I hesitate to agree with Jason about anything for fear of having my head chewed off, but he is right about his assessment of what I am trying to say here.
If, at 35, 40, 45 you are trying to figure out how to have a meet cute by learning how to detect IOIs from young virginal church girls, you are on crack. You will be shunned as a creep. By them, their parents, and the whole church.
When I was on round two–I was divorced at 29–it never occurred to me to go fishing at high schools and colleges. Those chicks are hot and everything, but as soon as they open their mouths they sound like children.
I had one girlfriend in gradate school before Mychael. She was 2 years yonger than me, and everybody thought she was great. We ultimately broke up over values/politics believe it or not. We had our “meet cute” but it was 30s style.
The point is, I knew I would be hanging out and dating women around my age, some of whom had kids, or were divorced (like me) because they had been on the same developmental trajectory I mentioned earlier. The girls I went out with my first few years in the army and then in graduate school as I was looking for Mychael, were sweet, nice, cute, well boundaried, “normal.” Not tatted up bordeline personality baby mommies with four kids from four different guys, sassy attitudes and all that. But they weren’t 19 year old virgins either. I was swinging in my own league and age group. I’ve always had a sense of that. Going through the experiences I mentioned before I think help prepare you for that.
Here’s another piece of this that is related, and I can’t quite figure out how. During the period from 29-36 when I was dating again, I had this experience a number of times:
I would go out with a women once or twice and have sex very early on. The “rule” for Genexers is something like “if she gives it up before the third date, its just a fling” So if you are following along at home, this is a game. You are supposed to push a little on those first few dates, but the sweet spot is the third date, then you know she is a “good girl” who wanted to make sure it was true love. Both of you are playing the game and know that you are tying to hit the third date target sex right on the nose. I know this is stupid. I am just reporting what this is like for men and women in my cohort.
Several of the women I dated had sex before that, like on the first or second date. And I asked every one of them, why? And each one of them had the same answer. “I didn’t think you were going to be around for long, so I took my shot”
Now filter that through a red pill lense. The second and third effects of that statement are pretty profound. I am just not sure I believe it.
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Scott. Believe it or not…despite how different we are. I have taken what you have said over the years in most cases with a “hmmmm let me think about that”
I just never liked some of your attitude towards me when I did in all “Brady Bunch honesty” nothing to you.
As a young man and a teen i put up with it from people. As an adult now balding and a real lifelong bachelor……I dont put up with it. I dont care if you are retired military or if your wife thinks the world of you.
That said. I liked your post about meet cute.
I never went after 18 yr olds in my thirties. When i was trying to date and at least be married before my late forties….and get help……what did i get from the peanut gallery concerning women. Nope. Any woman over 30. No good. Carousel rider. Divorced? Nope damaged goods. Nope. Single mom. Nope….that’s no good.
I was pulling my hair out at one point. You real men telling me do this, do that…..and then telling me my options at my age were almost zero…..and so what was left? Younger women and believe ut or not. They were off limits by my own personal conscious.
No kidding a man my age going for a young woman is creepy.
I don’t recall ever telling someone in their 30s-40s that any particular trait was an automatic next.
At that age, it is unrealistic to think that having an “abundance mentality” is/was a good strategy for the average guy.
Especially if abundance mentality means “there are plenty of women around my age with no divorces, no kids in tow, no past available.”
I think my problem is that I can offer zero advice on the topic. My situation is so unique, such an outlier so as to make it impossible to glean anything from it. It cannot be generalized into a strategy.
I was single, divorced, marginally and nominally Christian, having sex with every girl I went out with, in a line of women on the way to marriage to Mychael, a single (never married) mom. Then we started going back to church. I started reading red-pill sites. She started reading stuff like martha Peace and Sunshine Mary. Some of the stuff I read and tried to employ actually HURT the relationship. We were a pretty scorching couple without the red pill, to be honest. It just helped me contextualize and understand some of what I already kind of new but didn’t want to deal with.
We’ve been married almost 14 years. Yet, she leaves for 3 days to go to work and comes back and acts like a teenager who has been kept from her boyfriend for a month. I can’t explain it. It’s nice but its a total mystery. According to the manosphere, since she was not anything like a virgin at 32 when I met her, she should not be bonded to me at all. It should be impossible, right? But here we are. So what can guys who read around here learn from that? Probably nothing.
The thing to learn from Scott’s testimony is that we are totally reliant upon the grace of God.
I dont believe Scott was relying on the “grace of god” when he was getting gf after gf after his divorce and preparing himself for the woman who became his wife by those behaviors.
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“Accepting the “too late” thing probably is the hardest pill to swallow for many men. I include myself in that. How does a man at 35, 40, 45, 49 go out and try to attract a woman with a low “n” count, with a visceral look, dating, meeting and applying the knowledge gained from man-o-sphere sites…….”
This is an interesting point you made here. As I listen to the Manosphere content creators, certainly the RP dudes & some of the CRP’ers, there seems to be a message to the 40-45-50 crowd that you ‘still got it dude!’ I think the message being delivered is something along the lines of: “Hey, these young women are all sluts nowadays and it is a buffet of opportunity for all us Alpha males who are not only RP’d, but also ‘maintaining frame,’ ‘pursuing high value,’ ‘having game,’ etc. Maybe….But in my sitting back taking the opportunity to observe this a bit in the ‘real world,’ what I’ve seen is that this only ‘works’ for the 35 to 45 year old PLAYERS, and only for a short period of time. These guys because of their looks and a certain degree of resources, seem to be able to hook up with the late twentysomething sluts (27-29) and have an STR with them which almost invariably breaks apart after a few months. The players then just move on to the next younger woman willing to ‘play’ the game along with them. The only other thing I’ve seen out there for the 40+ (certainly the 45+) year old men is the sugar daddy thing. In the couple of cases that I’ve observed, this involves a married guy willing to have a mistress on the side and compensate her with some level of resource. In one case it was a furnished apartment he paid for; and in the other, it was investing in the business that she was starting up.
the other interesting point you made: “Would any of the men here approve of their 18 year old daughter being approached by a 35 year old man or older who loved god….served in church? A decent career? Sure, some may but most would not accept that or want that. Yet, a man at this age is expected to find someone like this?”
My daughter was this girl at one time (she’s now 29), and as her father, the answer would have been unequivocally HELL NO, unless it was some exceedingly unusual situation (which I’d have to sit back and think about even now what that might have been back then-I don’t know off the top of my head). In my mind when I think of the 35 year old man going after the 24 year old or younger women, yes it can work in theory certainly, however it still seems in a ‘real world’ sense problematic. Most younger women are conditioned NOT to be looking for a husband at this stage of life, but to be following some version of the feminist life script (You Go Girl!, You Can Have it All, You’re Amazing!, YOLO-You Only Live Once, etc. etc.), So these guys, the 35 to say 40 maybe at the far-end the 45 year old exceptional men, are going to get plenty of bedroom fun as long as they are fairly good looking for their age, and more importantly, have some money to spend on these young ladies and their desires–travel, etc. The one’s that do seem available to them are the thirtysomething, ex-You Can Have It All Girls, now looking to jump off the CC jump with the intent of locking down a man with resource value so they can have their Big Day they haven’t experienced yet, aka their wedding, and then start having their babies.
What am I trying to say? I detect in the men in the Manospere a lot of ego-speak that they (the content creators and their followers who aspire to be like their favorite content creators) still having as high an SMV as they think they have because being 35-55 is their ‘prime.’ Maybe for the exceptions or outliers of the 40+ bunch, you know the famous guy’s with a lot of money, but for the average/above average man, not so sure it’s such a ‘great buffet’ out there as they seem to think; unless of course, they want to go the route of a player/sugar daddy to just hook up with these girls and have an STR. I just don’t see the LTR potential in what they are advocating. Thoughts guys? I’m still fairly new to the RP and Manosphere (three years now), and I’m still thinking through some of these things, like what I posted about above. Do we have a lot of guys kidding themselves that they still got it going on after 40, that they have a ‘buffet’ out there for the partaking?
The manosphere has never claimed there was a buffet of LTRs with hot women available for older men. The reality is that there isn’t a buffet of good LTRs available for men of any age.
Best bet for men is being in his 30s and maxing his attraction vectors (physical, financial, personality, experience/mastery, social/charm) and screening women until he finds one who stands out in more ways than most.
For men in their 50s, there is no buffet of women. The sphere has never said that there was. What the sphere has said is that if men stay maxed (max looks, max finance, max persona, max social), they can have access for “dating”/sex/STR to attractive women for longer. LTRs? Not really.
For a Christian man in his 50s who is looking for an LTR, and for whom looks are not immaterial (that is, would rather not be with someone to whom he isn’t very strongly attracted physically) there are basically three options: (1) go to Christian dating sites and bang your head against the wall as thousands of men compete for a literal handful of attractive women, (2) ditch Christian morals, personally max himself (max looks, max finances, max persona, max social/charm, max career/drive/direction/velocity) and “date”/sex/STR the most attractive women they can find, regardless of whether an LTR is forthcoming or likely (and some of these guys end up being coaxed into a very sub-par LTR/marriage situation by a very sub-par woman if they take this approach), and (3) go single, meaning being open to finding someone if she comes along and is attractive and Christian and not problematic, but not expecting this, and instead moving on with other aspects of your life.
For men who aren’t Christian, it’s a matter of assessing what a maxed man of their age (i.e., maxed physically, financially, socially, persona, career/direction) can attain realistically in his market and then deciding whether he wants to bother maxing or not.
There is no silver bullet. The manosphere has never said that there was. What some of the older guys said was this: if you max yourself in everything, you can still attract women at these ages, because your competition is thin on the ground. And that’s true. But … it depends on whether you can feasibly max, and how much you can (many guys are capped at how much they can max for various reasons), where you are located and what the competition is doing (some places have many, many more maxed older men than others). It’s really dependent on all of this.
As for the older/younger issue, one key thing to keep in mind is this. There are marginally more older hot women than there were in prior eras. This is due to various things, ranging from improved fitness regimes (more targeted to toning), more effective skin care, more effective nutrition and diet, and more effective surgeries and treatments. It’s still a fairly small percentage of women in these age ranges, but it’s very noticeable more of them, for certain — not equally distributed in any way (skews more coastal, urban, higher SES, clearly), but very noticeable. However, this trend is in no way, shape or form helpful for older men. The reason is that the competition for these women is insane, because they are even today so relatively uncommon. A hot 48 year old woman who can still turn heads is turning heads of guys from 21 (or at least 31) to 70. She can date up, down, and sideways. She has much more demand than she likely ever has, because her female competition at her own age range has disappeared for the most part.
So, as most older men who have re-entered the market have learned, trying to find the attractive older women and chasing them is a strategy for failure and frustration. You will have an easier time with younger women, quite frankly, provided you’re not trying for “much younger”. That is, if you’re 53, you are going to have a better chance with an attractive 43 year old than with an attractive 50 year old, because the 50 year old has fewer competitors at her age, senses her increased market power, and is going to be more difficult for you, more picky, and more of an all-around pain in the ass for you. Going just a bit younger offers a greater number of “still attractive” women without them being so uncommon for their age that they become as picky as they were at 22.
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When you get older you get a surprising amount of interest from women, often significantly younger ones because of (as far as I can tell) your status and life as a husband and father. There are a number of women who seem to be attracted to you because of what you represent (the idyllic family life) to them – something a lot of them still want despite the feminist script and lifestyle. It can’t be appearance because none of us look like we did at 25.
Obviously this is of no use to a married man. It’s tempting to ask though: “where was this when I was a lonely 17 year old??”
Well put. I experience this to some degree now. It is tempting to think the classic trope, “If I knew then what I know now.” I’ve thought through this a bit, just as a fun thought experiment, and come to the conclusion, “Yes I could really make some hay now, knowing what I know now,” yet it is an exercise in futility and unreality. I didn’t know then what I know now, so it ends up in the ‘hindsight is 20-20’ cliche.
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For me this is the most important advice: Learn to be heart-led. Don’t get lost in the vanity of your mind.
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