On the Significance and Value of the Meet Cute Experience

Under what circumstances is a Meet Cute of crucial importance?

Readership: Christians; Men;

A Summary of the “Meet Cute” Discussion

Starting with Scott’s post, Probabilities (2020-2-24), there began a debate, largely between Scott and Derek, about the importance and value of the Meet Cute experience.

As I was following this discussion, I found that both sides had noteworthy points, and recognized that neither side was entirely right or wrong.  Since then, I’ve been contemplating how this might be sorted out.

In a follow up study of Scott’s posts, Trajectories (2020-2-28), I made a comparison between two life trajectories, a legalistic path on the one hand, and a hedonistic path at the other end of the spectrum.  It was presumed that if a man wishes to have a fulfilling marriage and family, he should shoot for a trajectory somewhere in between these two extremes.

But the next question was, what does this trajectory look like from the ground?  A legalist is focused on remaining inside the confines of moral acceptability and on maintaining his own righteousness.  A hedonist is focused on maximizing his own pleasure and expanding his life experiences.  But what does a man aiming for an ideal trajectory focus on?

At first glance, we might think he should be focused on Christ, or his God-ordained purpose in life, or on preparing himself for marriage.  But for a young, inexperienced person, these goals are almost just as nebulous.

To fill in this blank, I’ll offer a brief list of tasks a young man can focus on that should take him in the right direction.

  • Building character.
  • Developing charisma.
  • Coming to terms with himself.
  • Earning an education and preparing for a career.
  • Developing an abundance mindset as opposed to a poverty mindset.
  • Maintaining good nutrition and developing physical strength and health.

Although the above things can certainly help, they are woefully insufficient to get one into the elite Christian married club, as Jason has adamantly pointed out.

I believe the main difference between Scott’s and Derek’s stances is in the values and norms proscribed by the non-shared environmental socialization factors, including the perceived ideal, and this is combined with one’s individual locus of passion and purpose for living.  Thus, all the argumentation is centered around the discussion of various elements of an underlying hierarchy of values and ideals.  I will explain this in the remainder of this essay.

Biblical Courtship is not Perceivable to the Majority

Those of us who have been following Christian Red Pill sites for a while are well aware of how the church in the west is converged.  That is to say, it has very few identifying characteristics which distinguish itself from the wider secular culture.  This convergence extends to include the expected (but unspoken) norms for “dating” and romance.

Moreover, there are a plethora of influences pushing us into fornication, and setting us up to fail.  These influences include gynocentric cultural norms, converged churchianity, well-meaning but ignorant friends, our own fleshly nature, and for some, their own family members too.  To make matters worse, these influences are quick to shame us if we fail to either (1) have Meet Cute opportunities, or (2) take advantage of those opportunities.  The only other option is to become a prudish legalistic hermit, which was essentially the outcome of the Purity Movement, and it has also been argued that this path might be even worse, because there is no opportunity to experience God’s grace and learn something from your choices.

This is why Bruce Batsche summed up the past discussion as,

“…current conditions incentivize men seeking a good marriage (good by male standards anyway) to fornicate.  As Scott said (more or less) somewhere, the best way to ensure marriage to a woman who wants you forever is to choose one who wants to fornicate with you a lot over an extended “courtship” (my interpretation of what he said).  Hard for a woman to fake genuine desire for an extended period of time.  So a Christian is incentivized to sin to get a good marriage – twisted really.”

But I have to point out, this has only become necessary because it is the norm, and there are virtually no other options available to the average man, short of converting to be Amish (or its near cousin, Mennonite, such as brother Derek).

So for a man in this situation, Scott’s advice becomes highly relevant:

  1. Find a woman who is really crazy about you, a Meet Cute who is consistently displaying IOI’s.
  2. You need to be on the edge of losing your self-control, which is an indication that (1) you need to be married, and also that (2) you have the necessary degree of desire for her.
  3. You need to keep a clear head and vet her on many other checkpoints.  Deep Strength has offered a large number of posts dedicated to the task of wife vetting.
  4. Be sensitive to the feedback you might receive from trusted friends, family members, and those in your faith community.
  5. Plan for a wedding and resist having sex before the big day.

Bruce and probably others have thought or said to look for a woman who wants to fornicate with you.  This is not exactly right, and I think this is just a male view of the situation.  If a woman is intentionally trying to fornicate with you, that should be taken as an orange flag.  You don’t want a woman who rushes into a sexual relationship without any qualms.  Such a woman is probably not inexperienced.  The idea here is that the woman should have a spontaneous, genuine enthusiasm about showing natural physical affection to you, like she can’t keep her hands off of you, she wants to hold hands or kiss…  Immature women might show their attachment by getting jealous, making petulant demands, or $h!t testing you.

But the thing that everyone seems to miss is that it is possible to love someone, and to be “in love” with someone, without having sex.  It is possible for a woman to be in love and not be focused on the sexual.  But we are inundated with the half-baked argument that love is a justifiable reason for having sex, and this blurred understanding has blinded the eyes of many once-innocent souls.

For instance, the verbs “date” and “marry” are too often used as euphemisms for sexual relations.  It would be much more honest if people really said what they mean in this regard.  As a result of this misnomenclature, “I love you” is commonly interpreted to mean, “I wanna shag you!”  But this debases the glory of loving others and being loved.

Problems with the Meet Cute experience

If we reconsider the SMP from both the male and female perspectives, and from both the high and low SMV male perspectives, we discover the inherent errors of the cultural norm.

Consider this.  If a young man of average SMV falls in love with a girl, then that is usually seen as an embarrassing inconvenience.  But if a girl gets her panties soaked for a man, then we invariably see what Scott described in a recent comment: $h!ts and giggles from friends setting them up to be alone, followed by playful touching, then sneaking off, kissing underneath the bleachers, and so on.  And all this inevitably leads to sexual adventures — riding high in the back of the truck under the moonlight, escapades on magic blankets in beautiful secluded spots, etc.

Of course, the Meet Cute experience only happens to high SMV men.

The reason I find this interesting is because if a man is really bonkers about the girl, then we have the potential for a marriage commitment from him, which is labeled “good” by Christians.  But when the girl’s feelings take center stage, then we have the makings of delicious, illicit (to coin a new word: illicious) sex, which is portentously labeled “evil” by Christians.  So why then do we see practically everyone, Christians included, encouraging Meet Cute’s when they happen?  Are they hoping that the man will get hooked on the sex and pursue marriage with her?  But if he isn’t eager to marry the ho, then that renders him as a bad boy?  But if he does choose to stay with her, or even marry her, and she loses the Tingles later on, then it must be because he’s selfish and incompetent and so deserves to be thrown aside?  These are the opinions we are used to hearing, even within the church.  But obviously, we’re stuck in first gear with this rhetoric because no one is thinking that far ahead.

We’re still only talking about high SMV men.  Low SMV men are invisible to women.

Derek’s stance hereby becomes evident – that the present cultural emphasis on (her) feelings of sexual attraction is faulty.

Ultimately, a Meet Cute is a high SMV man’s challenge to find Christ.

In conclusion, the Biblical conscription of marriage is d@mn near impossible to attain through an independent discovery.

A Hierarchy of Ideals

So what makes Derek or Ed so special, that they could attain an “ideal” Biblical marriage?

For Derek, I would have to conclude that it was an absence of the negative influences described above, and the presence of positive influences that gave Derek a trajectory that is close to the ideal.  Namely, having a Christian community that offers real opportunities for viable pairings at an early age, and which offers the correlating teaching and guidance to move towards marriage, are absolutely necessary to enter into a fulfilling Christ-centered marriage.

For Ed, he summed up his approach in terms of finding a helper for his divinely ordained purpose in life.

“The thing that Scott’s article brings to mind for me is that very few men in our society are trained to think in terms of having a mission in life that would outlive you. More to the point, they have no idea what it looks like in a woman, so they can’t identify a prospective wife who will be supportive of that mission far, far down the road. How I learned it as a young man, I’m not sure I can explain, but it was a major criteria when I decided to marry.”

I suppose it is possible for a man to make it on Christ alone, but not probable, given the average level of maturity.

Thus, those who are without a strong internal sense of Christian purpose, and those who are lacking the constant, caring support of a network of wise believers, the choices for men default to the following,

  1. Hunt the world over for a submissive, obedient virgin to wife up, who is also willing to marry you and have your babies.
  2. Meet Cute and explore in the hope that you’ll wind up there eventually.  The usual pitfalls can be expected – jealousy, STD’s, out of wedlock births, divorce, etc.
  3. Withdrawal, isolation, masturbation.

Red Pilled Dad (R.P. McMurphy) describes Why deregulation of SMP makes pairing up hard. (2020 March 31)

Note 1: In the western MMP, the outcome of option 1 is likely to be the same as option 3.

Note 2: If a young man actually goes abroad in his search for a wife, the outcome of option 1 is the same as option 2.

“I heard pollution in the world is way down because everybody is staying inside masturbating right now.  Which got me thinking… hear me out here, but I’m pretty sure I’m right about this.  I think… I think coronavirus was created and released by Greta Thunberg in an attempt to combat climate change.  You heard it hear first.

Conclusions

Derek argued that the overall marital satisfaction is not necessarily dependent on the intensity and frequency of sexual passion.  Derek summed up his position as,

”So precisely, my personal stance is that the Meet Cute approach can be beneficial or detrimental, but that—in comparison—respecting one’s vows is more important.  Jason’s stance is, as far as I can tell from witnessing dozens or hundreds of marriages, is the most important component of a successful marriage.”

Jason’s stance is cited as follows.

“One of the most plain truths I got from the bible was “have your yes mean yes and your no mean no” […] My parents knew each other six months and married.  My mom always said “your father and I never kept a match or score on each other.” My dad always said “Your mother and I just took our wedding vows seriously.  It was a promise before family, friends and god.  It was just understood, and especially after your older brother… we only had each other… we had to make it work.”

The difficulties with Derek’s argument includes the following.

  1. It requires a community of mature believers offering constant instruction and guidance to a pool of young people large enough to allow assortative pair selection – something 95+% of men these days don’t have, and never will have.
  2. The approach of unwavering commitment and devotion relies heavily on vows and willpower, which are insufficient without the help of the Holy Spirit.  In other words, this method would be a hard grind for unbelievers, and unlikely to attract their longitudinal adherence.

There is one point of overarching importance: Commitment may be significantly less challenging if a man seriously considers his God-ordained mission in life, and considers the suitability of a particular, potential wife with respect to her ability to play the role of a helper and companion to him in that mission.

For those men who cannot achieve Derek’s approach, presumably because of the lack of maturity and a supporting network of believers, Scott’s approach towards marriage becomes the next best option.

Scott’s main position is that a wife’s (sexual) enthusiasm has to be present from the onset, and if it is not, it is highly unlikely to suddenly materialize eight years down the road.  Scott also argued that one major benefit of the Meet Cute path is that the sex is likely to be regular and rather satisfying.  The marriage covenant is better maintained through regular sexual intercourse, and if the woman has a high level of enthusiasm for having sex with her husband, then this contributes to the stability and satisfaction of the marriage.

The problem with Scott’s position is that it relies heavily upon emotional bonding, and while this can be quite strong, it is not consistent over time as it tends to wane.  At some point, commitment through thick or thin will need to emerge among the top shared values, and the difficulty of making this transition may prove to be the fatal hiccup for the union.

One positive aspect of Scott’s position is that it allows a man to gain an added appreciation of the grace of God.

The cultural norm, including the Meet Cute phenomenon, all seems easily understandable to us, maybe even inspirational.  Many readers may relate to Scott’s testimony because they have fond memories of past experiences.  But we should be aware that we might find it easy to accept this as fact, merely because we are familiar with it.  But in fact, this process is not God’s ideal.  It has a high likelihood of failure, as Scott has attested, and it is fraught with heartache and frustration, mainly because it does not place Christ first.

Remember, a Meet Cute is a special case scenario which is glorified as the romantic norm.

Of note, the inherent power structure of both paths conform to the God-honoring Respect Model of courtship.

Another key problem with both paths is that the longitudinal outcome of the marriage goes back to what Sharkly said under “Probabilities”:

“Relationships are not usually controlled by what you do as a man and a leader, the relationship is always controlled by the least emotionally mature partner.  The relationship cannot grow above the point that the least mature partner will not sustain.  So, if the man is the weak link, he can improve things, by getting his act together.  But, in our generation, most of the time, the entitled victim spoiled feminist goddess (daughter of the King) is the more emotionally stunted one.  So, almost all progress in the marriage is dependent on her maturing in Christ.  You as a husband can do cartwheels, send smoke signals, hire a psychologist, call a prayer meeting, drop hints, but until your wife chooses to grow up, or has an epiphany, you’re stuck having the level of development in your marriage dictated by that rebellious immature girl’s selfish choices.

Given that the adolescent libido peaks long before emotional maturity is achieved, most young people are like a child playing with a loaded weapon.  All the pressures, all the responsibilities, and they don’t know what they’re doing.

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About Jack

Jack is a world traveling artist, skilled in trading ideas and information, none of which are considered too holy, too nerdy, nor too profane to hijack and twist into useful fashion. Sigma Frame Mindsets and methods for building and maintaining a masculine Frame
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38 Responses to On the Significance and Value of the Meet Cute Experience

  1. ramman3000 says:

    “there are virtually no other options available to the average man, short of converting to be Amish (or its near cousin, Mennonite, such as brother Derek)”

    Christianity, at the beginning, consisted of small communities of believers. There was no universal church and any communication between bodies of believers required foot travel, sea travel, or letters. Options were similarly limited, but this did not stop the spread of Christianity from person to person.

    When governments across the world declared that all non-essential, non-life-sustaining activities must be cancelled, the converged church said:

    “Yes, we agree. We are neither essential nor life-sustaining. We will close now, but don’t forget to keep your donations up!”

    We should not look to the church for answers, for it has none. It is utterly lost, and the beer virus has unambiguously highlighted this for everyone to see. It is crystal clear.

    “In conclusion, the Biblical conscription of marriage is d@mn near impossible to attain through an independent discovery.”

    We can look to other Christians or members of our local community. Perhaps there is assistance to be found. But ultimately, you must rely on individual study and revelation from God. There is no other practical and consistent option. If you are a man who wants to find a wife, you must rely on God in a way that has rarely been required in history due to the breakdown of Christian institutions (including family).

    I got lucky by being in one of the few communities that still had viable Christian institutions. Ed, on the other hand, seems to be demonstrating the modern approach that must be emulated. A man, once red-pilled or ‘born again’, must embrace Christ alone despite the difficulties of the approach:

    “I suppose it is possible for a man to make it on Christ alone, but not probable, given the average level of maturity.”

    God promises that he will not forsake those who seek him. Advice that we all can provide may or may not be useful, depending on context. But if you truly believe that trusting in God is a real and reliable thing, then you truly believe that it is the only consistent option. Indeed, difficult or not, it is a prerequisite.

    Liked by 1 person

  2. Scott says:

    You have kind of embedded it in the discussion, but to spell something out, putting a fine point on it. I have done so explicitly in multiple forums around the ‘sphere for decades:

    A “meet cute” is the American, socially normative way that couples meet and it doesn’t matter if you are “Christian” or not. All efforts to combat it, to attack it, to change it on a massive scale have failed to date. Move to a commune, use Joshua Harris “kissed dating goodbye” methods, whatever–as soon as you tell THAT story to your friends, you are an oddball freakshow overly religious couple who don’t have a meet cute story. Ewwwwwww.

    Now, this has implications that have also been discussed around here as well. So no need to belabor the point too much. But either:

    Christianity in America has become so indistinguishable, even on this very important issue so as to make it irrelevant as force on earth. –or–
    There is some way to make meet cutes fit into a hybrid Christian model that is still God-honoring and holy (enough) to be pleasing to Him when he sees it.

    I am leaning toward number two for my own kids. I am trying to make sure they have plenty of exposure to Christians of the opposite sex whose parents more or less agree with me about marriage and its purpose. We actually discuss this with our friends who kids around the same age as ours openly.

    Beyond that?

    Liked by 2 people

    • @ Scott

      I wouldn’t overthink it. It’s not that hard to help your kids be some of the best quality young men and young women if you start early.

      For what it’s worth, I think you’re doing it right as early exposure leads to them decreasing social awkwardness. You can also guide them effectively through modeling relationships and mentoring (most young men and women don’t have this) and becoming masculine men and feminine women respectively (and society is going the opposite, so they stand out).

      The hardest part I think would be to find quality spouses for them, which you are doing through exposing them with like-minded parents’ children.

      Liked by 1 person

  3. lastmod says:

    Who knows? Part of the reason MGTOW is what it is, and part of the reason why the so called “red pill rage” and “anti-PUA” forums and the like are big is because many don’t / didn’t and never will have a “meet cute” no matter what they do.

    I am trying to ponder and think of viable way for men like this who don’t have that. In Dischord chats, some MGTOW forums I have been purporting some brash truth “You’re 33 (or older) and never had a date, or girlfriend? Pack it in. Hit the shower find something else to do. Don’t waste your time anymore getting destroyed over this because it will destroy you.”

    All the therapy in the world, or counseling probably won’t help at this point.

    At one time I would have told people to find a church….but no longer. I might have suggested some advice from some blogs, and the advice itself may be decent or good but the comments from the high SMV men will suck the life-force out of you. These men giving you advice were the same guys who flushed your head in the toilet back in jr. high…ah but now their cheap talk of “just shower, be alpha, work out” are snide and done to still put you down and make you more miserable.

    I wish I had the answer. Or the the stance to “make your sexual frustration go away”
    for men in this situation. Porn? Hookers? Going to Vegas? Some that will be the only route. For a ‘christian’ guy, he basically has to “burn” be frustrated and sit around listening all day from pastors about “pursue! lead! man up!” and the SMV men in church he hears “I just did my own thing, and god brought me a this amazing wife / girlfriend….have you tried volunteering in the church / community / ministry….christian women love men who do this etc…….”

    One thing that helped me was sometime in 2016 I got so angry……..I was crying at home every night. I just said to myself, and I don’t know what or when caused me to think this, but it just came out: What do you want to do? Mid forties now. What do YOU want to do???????

    I always wanted to go to the UK, and see my relatives. I always wanted to go and buy records there, shop for clothing, dance all night to soul music in blue collar city of Manchester. I wanted to walk across Abbey Road barefoot like McCartney did for the famous 1969 album cover.

    I began to save, plan. I did it.

    I always wanted to hike the Adirondack Trail from Northville to Lake Placid. 133 miles through some of the most remote parts of this HUGE state park. In 2017 I did it.

    I always wanted to climb Mt. Whitney, the tallest mountain in the lower 48 states. In 2018 I did this.

    I am still discovering that “meet cute” doesn’t mean boring life, or unfulfilled life, or “you’re missing out life”

    Is it fair that this didn’t happen to me? No, it’s not. Is it fair that many so-called christians lived this life, had tons of “meet cutes” and did things “against” god “word” and still were rewarded? No, probably not….but since god doesn’t care if you sin or not….what of it?

    Is it fair? Is it fair? Is it right?

    the answers all come back to “no, but what of it?”

    Since we live in such a sex-soaked culture and times, its easy for men especially to boast how much, what number on the scale how long, how big and how awesome they are……

    In some cases, some of these men are like gay men…..they base their whole reality and lifestyle on sex. Good for them. Be happy for them……if you are or were locked out…you are just going to have to find some other identity you fit into.

    My advice by the way is for men probably in their mid thirties and up.

    Liked by 3 people

  4. Jack says:

    A friend and his wife from church introduced me and my wife to another nice UMC Christian couple today. We were sitting on the veranda of his apartment building, eating nuts, drinking tea, and enjoying a nice breezy afternoon on a tropical island in Asia. Since I had already written the majority of this post by then, I saw this one coming… One of the first questions they asked us was, “So, tell us how you two met.” Of course, they were expecting to hear a Meet Cute story. I recognized that exchanging Meet Cute stories was the typical way that most newly introduced couples kick off a conversation and establish emotional bonding, and that this is no less true for Christians, maybe even more so. This confirmed many of the statements in this post about Meet Cutes being the norm.

    However, my wife and I met online (through OkCupid, back when it was still good), so we don’t have much of a story. They prodded us with a few more questions, but they were visibly uninspired by our response. Presumably considering this to be a dead end topic, they didn’t share their own Meet Cute story, and instead moved on to the next topic.

    Afterwards, I asked myself, what have I lost by not having a Meet Cute story to share with others? Some good memory to brag and laugh about, I suppose. Some verbal tool to help establish relationships with other married couples. I don’t consider this to be a huge loss, but I find the question awkward to address. I’ve had the idea that maybe I should consider it a loss.

    With other couples I perceive to be less formal and more open minded, I’ve sometimes made the joke that we met at a sex party, and we decided that we didn’t want anyone else — ever — so we got married. (Although we were never involved in an actual sex party, the emotional experience we shared upon our first meeting was reminiscent of such, making this joke somewhat true.) This story never fails to get the conversation rolling. In doing so, I’ve found a few wives who became extremely excited by this story and who enthusiastically formed a renewed respect for me. One of them just couldn’t keep her hands off of me, which actually put some distance between us as couples. This only confirms everything Red Pill to me, namely that female sexuality is a feral beast to be reckoned with.

    But all of this makes me wonder, what is the actual value of having a Meet Cute experience?

    Like

    • ramman3000 says:

      “However, my wife and I met online (through OkCupid, back when it was still good), so we don’t have much of a story. [..] what have I lost by not having a Meet Cute story to share with others? Some good memory to brag and laugh about, I suppose.”

      A few posts back, you said something along the lines that I married my high school sweetheart (the exactly quote isn’t important). The truth of the matter is that we were best friends, but did not get romantically involved until over a year after graduation. Almost all of our dating was online, including after engagement.

      When we meet new couples, we tell them that we met in high school. If necessary, I know how to spin the story details to make it into an interesting origin story, but ultimately people just want to think that we were high school sweethearts, because that’s a Meet Cute trope they are familiar with. Once they have this in their head, they usually don’t push for more details and just move on.

      Socially, our ‘fake’ Meet Cute is just as useful as a ‘real’ one.

      Liked by 2 people

    • However, my wife and I met online (through OkCupid, back when it was still good), so we don’t have much of a story. They prodded us with a few more questions, but they were visibly uninspired by our response. Presumably considering this to be a dead end topic, they didn’t share their own Meet Cute story, and instead moved on to the next topic.

      I think you’re overthinking this. My wife and I met online through mutual friends and most people are actually interested to know the story.

      Like Derek said it’s probably how you’re framing it. If you’re just saying our profiles matched, we talked a bit and went out on a few dates, and next thing led to next and we ended up getting married then of course it’s going to sound boring. It’s the “guy” version of the story. Women generally want to hear the “girl” version of the story with the details.

      If women can spin how they got all worked up watching a TV show (which happens all the time) then it’s easy to make an online meet up story interesting if you wanted. You just need to include lots of details about how the process made you feel or when you knew she was the one or whatever.

      Liked by 2 people

  5. Scott says:

    Wives care about the story of how you met, not husbands

    It is the narrative filter they (and their envious single friends) use to decide if it is “true love”

    The story itself holds a magical/mystical power over the legitimacy of the relationship. It must a sufficient amount of fateful-bumped-into-my-soulmate aura around it to be a true love story.

    Liked by 4 people

  6. Scott says:

    To jump on my last comment

    If you cannot accurately recall the details of the story she will hold you in contempt. This is an important part of the ritual.

    Liked by 1 person

  7. Scott says:

    The current wife/girlfriend

    You mustn’t mix up previous meet cute stories. Those were all the ones you mistakenly took for true love leading to the real true love.

    Liked by 1 person

  8. Jack says:

    Scott brings up a powerful point.

    “It is the narrative filter they (and their envious single friends) use to decide if it is “true love”

    The story itself holds a magical/mystical power over the legitimacy of the relationship. It must [convey] a sufficient amount of fateful-bumped-into-my-soulmate aura around it to be a true love story.”

    The actual meeting is but a moment in time, but the significance of the meeting holds a heavy sway over everything thereafter, especially for the females.
    I am beginning to think that it is worthy to cook up an embellishment of the meeting merely for the sake of maintaining the relationship and glorifying it for posterity.

    Liked by 1 person

  9. Ed Hurst says:

    This time the comments were more uniformly interesting, as was the post itself, of course. I doubt there is a single answer to the problem we all recognize. In more ancient societies, there was always a sort of noble standard that men could be raised and apprenticed to take up leadership in their society. If they managed to stay with the program, they would be imbued with a vision of preserving their culture and society. The choice of spouse was always handled as a secondary matter, dependent on that deeply instilled sense of purpose. Even the West had a little of that, but it was poorly staged and too often a secretive order of nobility. Indeed, we still have that kind of crap around, but without much of the nobility these days. Outside the West it would include a sense of privilege without entitlement. You know, something that rested on humility that didn’t disable genuine courage. Maybe I’ll turn this into a post some day, or even some fiction, but it’s not bugging me to write it right now.

    Like

  10. JPF says:

    A very good article Jack.

    Note 1: In the western MMP, the outcome of option 1 is likely to be the same as option 3.

    Sadly, based on the results of my male friends at church, I have to agree.

    Note 2: If a young man actually goes abroad in his search for a wife, the outcome of option 1 is the same as option 2.

    If you mean that this is more of an adventure, with the excitement of exploring a new culture and different (exotic) women, then sure it has excitement similar to option 2.
    I am sure many women will see the man as exciting/different/exotic also. Some women due to seeing him as a foreigner. And unfortunately, some women due to the perception that he must be a rich foreigner.

    But at least for me, there was no fornication. There also were not any offered opportunities, although this may in part be due to selection-bias, as I was seeking a moral wife.

    1. It requires a community of mature believers offering constant instruction and guidance to a pool of young people large enough to allow assortative pair selection – something 95+% of men these days don’t have, and never will have.

    A very important point. Women who want a moral (if unexciting) husband will have no problem finding one. But good luck for the men; they’ll need either luck or a heavy dose of good looks, charisma, or something.

    For those men who cannot achieve Derek’s approach, presumably because of the lack of maturity and a supporting network of believers, Scott’s approach towards marriage becomes the next best option.

    a) Very sad conclusion, but not unjustified.
    b) If you can’t find any fish in the toilet, try going to the river. (I.e. go to Eastern Europe; if you are roman Catholic, South America may be a good choice.) And yes, I know some good women can be found here. The fact I could not grab one for myself does not prove they do not exist; but they are not plentiful.

    As more people meet up via dating websites, I expect you will get less grief for not having a great Meet Cute story.

    Like

  11. Scott says:

    The loss of assortive mating based on accurate self assessment has also made “meet cutes” very unlikely to occur for all but a small percentage of people.

    In a rational world, people would match up with others who are in the same “league”

    ie: on the 1-10 scale you are likely to be with someone within one deviation up or down. (a 6 with a 5, 6, or 7)

    It sounds crude, but based purely on the how things like that are normally distributed, everyone would have a (better) shot at a serious LTR leading to marriage (if they were so inclined) under conditions like that.

    One of the darker truths revealed by the OKCupid data some years back is that women tend to rate themselves as much higher on that scale than the bell curve would warrant. There simply cannot be that many 8s, 9s, and 10s. The math doesnt work. Hence the vast numbers of men in online dating who never get even one email from an interested girl. Any man who is objectively a 7 or below might as well as be invisible.

    In the world I grew up and have described, I will concede that there were probably a lot of guys who simply were not invited to the party. And I bet that if any of those guys had received attention from a girl in their “league” they would have been ecstatic to have it. And this is NOT the same as “settling.”

    An cursory perusal of my Ljubomir Farms site would reveal to even the most casual observer that neither me nor my wife are “10s” on that scale, but we make a very attractive couple because we well matched. We are not “3s” either, I admit. But I think my wife is adorable and I am totally satisfied. She often tells people that she still has a crush on me.

    My only solution to that problem is to have serious discussions with girls who are young NOW about hypergamy and accurate self rating. Sure, make all the improvements you want. Stay thin, keep your hair long, be sweet. For men, work out, take risks, learn to have courage and a mission. But the raw material is what attracts, and if you are a 5 naturally, you will never be a 9.

    I would love to see more couples meet up this way. It would be lovely.

    Liked by 2 people

  12. Scott says:

    …cont

    In online dating, getting an unsolicited email from a woman to a man is the virtual/e-version of a IOI, which then leads to a meet cute.

    I’ve heard that for guys, it takes 10s even 100s of emails and “winks” and stuff like that to get just one back.

    When I used an online profile, I never once sent out an email. I just waited for them come in. I was using the exact same “technique” I used in real life, just online. I never had to have a Friday without a date, if I didn’t want one. So, the incoming data suggests that I am in that 20% I still don’t like thinking about that, or mentioning it because it makes me feel like a totally conceited dirtbag world class cocky a-hole.

    So, these forums are really for the bottom 80% guys, with whom I have great deal of desire to help. I want them to feel what its like to have a woman occupy a place in your heart who makes them feel 100 feet tall when they come home. I want them to figure out to get there, but I keep coming up with nothing other than cold, statistical, clinical observations about probabilities.

    Liked by 1 person

  13. lastmod says:

    I may be way off or wrong. Scott’s original short and concise clip about “meet cute” wasn’t about having a “meet cute” story to share with your married friends per say….

    It was about men needing this or having the experiences in this to help themselves grow into “normal” men with a dating set and meeting cute that eventually led to the one they married.

    The men who didnt have this and never did…..from his general observations probably would not by the time they reached a certain age. No he did not define that age. Some guys were just awkward at 16 but by the time they were 23…..they were okay……maybe a bit behind other men in these matters but did fine.

    Him using the term “meet cute” in this way was actually tactically smart.

    Scott also clearly admitted he didnt have the answer to and for men who didnt have this.

    An older man….lets say….35. Average looking. Not a mouth breather or ass scratcher. Decent job or position in his respected trade….not fat….no bad haircut and no poor personal habits. That guy. Tons of them like this today. What about him?

    It doesnt look good bc even if he followed Deep Strenghts advice and went from a 4/5 to a 6/7 in looks….which dont matter but do, but dont…..ughh….

    He is so behind the curve. Trying to date. Dating. Finding the right one. Breaking up. Meeting. Going out. Still getting rejected at times as well……working 40 hrs a week or more some weeks. Saving. Working out. Life balance.

    He still may not find a wife….

    Too much time got past him bc of not “meeting cute” and learning a lot of this stuff at age when many men just “do”

    Scott even admitted to this. IOI’s he just got from women.

    Not saying his life was easy…..but in these matters….well, he did seem to get them. Lots of guys did.

    Like

  14. Scott says:

    Yep. Its like the space-time continuum from “Back to the Future.”

    Once you get derailed form the trajectory, the story changes and cannot be changed back.

    George McFly gets a re-do because his son travels back in time and gives him the gift of a totally different story for how he got the girl.

    This is human psychological development 101. These milestones matter. You can get a little bit off track, but the further you get from it, the more grossly distorted the outcome is. Think geometry and lines that are not parallel. Or think about why a rifle is more accurate than a pistol. The distance between the sights on a rifle is greater, so its easier to stay close to parallel and on target.

    The whole I time I have been writing about this, it has been from the perspective of a psychologist. I want so badly to repair these trajectories, but I just have not come up with a brilliant solution. Its like my original idea that I am trying so hard to develop.

    Like

  15. Scott says:

    …and the variables that are unknown, unaccounted for and uncontrollable are immense.

    Genetic loads for a certain type of problem solving and approach vectoring? Check.
    Cultural/social norms constantly changing? Check
    Parental modelling all fucked up? Check
    Weird Christian upbringings/blue pill/tradcon conditioning? Check

    Its impossible.

    Liked by 2 people

  16. @ Scott

    This is human psychological development 101. These milestones matter. You can get a little bit off track, but the further you get from it, the more grossly distorted the outcome is. Think geometry and lines that are not parallel. Or think about why a rifle is more accurate than a pistol. The distance between the sights on a rifle is greater, so its easier to stay close to parallel and on target.

    The whole I time I have been writing about this, it has been from the perspective of a psychologist. I want so badly to repair these trajectories, but I just have not come up with a brilliant solution. Its like my original idea that I am trying so hard to develop.

    Genetic loads for a certain type of problem solving and approach vectoring? Check.
    Cultural/social norms constantly changing? Check
    Parental modelling all fucked up? Check
    Weird Christian upbringings/blue pill/tradcon conditioning? Check

    Its impossible.

    Black pill much?

    I don’t know how much you keep up with neuroscience research, but the brain is much more malleable and changeable than what was commonly thought throughout the 80s-00s. All of us are here because we recognized there are problems with how the Church is doing things. All of the 20s and 30s men I’ve given copies of the book have agreed too. I found that particularly surprising since I thought there would be at least some disagreement.

    I’m not claiming that it isn’t much harder the older you get and more settled into various habits, but change is possible. There is also the element of age differences. I don’t think I’ve claimed that if you’re late 30s or 40s you’re going to get a young 20 something virgin. Largest age gap is probably going to be about 5-10 years at these ages. It’s fairly rare to get a 15-20 age gap unless you are conventionally attractive.

    I’ve seen some (not few, but also not many) men who are 35+, 40s and 50s get first time married in the Protestant circles I’ve been in. The older the harder it is, and the less picky you can be. There is hope, though the more you have to stand out. However, standing out isn’t that hard when most men are getting overweight or obese post 30 and 40 and are already set in their ways too.

    It’s usually not looks that prohibit relationships at these stages unless a man is aiming high. It’s either sociability or behaviors that actively sabotage attraction or impart negative effects on relationship sustainability.

    Like

  17. Scott says:

    Well, I don’t know much about the black pill, other than sometimes I get accused of it by Rollo.

    I’ve also been watching a lot of the red-pill content on youtube and such and the reality is that the incentive is to do change is possible, because it sells superchats and books. My message is “I’m not sure what works. And neither is anyone else” which is why I don’t make much money doing this.

    I also think the genetic research is stronger than neuroscience at predicting broad, macro level behaviors. I’m at roughly 35,000 clinical contact hours in my practice and I have not seen much in the way of deep, temperament level change that sticks. And I have been trying to drag that horse across the finish line for years. The only exception to this is Christ and the changes He makes in people. I cannot explain religious experiences or conversions.

    I am in almost the exact same place as my father at the same age. Like separated a birth twin studies level weird.

    Most clients come in and engage in brief, solution oriented therapies which gives them relief for a time on the particular issue they came in for and then six months to a couple of years later the underlying issue has manifested in another maladaptive behavior set. Its like that arcade game Whack a Mole. You knock it down with behavioral modification, but it pops back up in just a slightly different way. The problems exist at the subconscious level–the stuff you don’t have access too. (Yes, this is a nod to pscyhodynamic theory).

    My coaching clients (not “therapy”) tend to be relived by the breath of fresh air when I tell them that the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior and the chances of success along the dimension(s) they are seeking to change are slim to none.

    Sometimes I feel like that doctor from the movie “Idiocracy.”

    “What I would do is, just, you know, psssshhhh.”

    “I need you to be serious for a minute.”

    “There’s that fag talk we talked about.”

    Or I want to just say “have you ever thought about not being such a colossal dork all the time?”

    And none of that is going to get men where they want to be. I want them to have those things too. I just think there is more that we don’t know about whats really going than we know.

    Liked by 1 person

  18. lastmod says:

    Standing out!

    DS. How much more does a 50+ year old man have to stand out? And to whom?

    You’re telling me this man “could” attract a woman 10-15 years younger…..you know, low n count, easy on the eyes, never married….well divorced but no kids…and the 35 to 40 year old woman is ready to settle down….be a biblical wife. Sure…..all over the place. These women are everywhere!

    Then you say “dont be picky”

    No shit? Really.

    I hear over and over from christians like you that they have met and know plenty of men marrying for the first time at 40 or 50+

    Yet stats show in the church it isnt happening. Sure. Wont disagree it doesnt…..but this is not the norm at all.

    “Just change your outlook and never give up” is as bad as telling a man “god has an amzing plan for your life”

    I was not going to be that guy in church who was 40 or 50 or older of “god has this great plan for me” and while i am striving to figure out his mission for me in life….life is effing passing me by.

    Once i left. I actually started DOING instead of serving and believing the bible.

    No i didnt start dating hot 25 year olds or even women around my age (that ship and opportunity left almost two decades ago). I started living.

    Your book is great for a younger man. Over 35? 40? Starting from the level / experience of 15-16 year old at that age?

    You’re smoking crack. You will look foolish and actually desperate. Its cute as a teen and college boy…..but after that???? Maybe a few years a guy could catch up….be “picky” and have time to life balance everything your book requires.

    Most men should for their OWN mental health…if meet cutes or meeting mrs cute has not rolled around by forty….and hes a virgin and never has had a date????

    Well…then i would support gentle but directional…..firm coaching like Scott mentioned. This coaching needs to ciach the man to other areas and to acceptance of his situation.

    Booker T has spoken. Take that suckas!!

    Like

  19. Jack says:

    I agree with DS, in saying that when there’s a will (or faith) there’s a way. In past posts, I’ve called this approach “the orange pill”.
    Personally, I’ve always believed that part of my mission in life was to marry and have children. But I was never happy with the quality of women who came my way in America. At some point, I realized that I had to allow my desire to become more of a motivating factor. I had to work harder, spend more money, lift weights, meet more women, try new things, take more risks, travel abroad, learn another language, pray more, earn another degree, be more humble, adjust my expectations… And all this only scratches the surface of desire. Eventually, I was able to get to a place/state in which I was getting so much Meet Cute action that I couldn’t resist the daily onslaught of temptation. That was when I got married.

    Once I attained this state (when I was in my early 30’s), I found what Scott has described about feedback loop reinforcement. When this is present, it is much easier to maintain, and even as I have aged. But as I get older, I rely more on Frame games, charisma, and dressing well, and less on athleticism, detachment, and looking sharp.

    Contrary to what some have claimed in earlier comments here, at the age of 48, I still get Meet Cutes from all sorts of women on a regular basis, some younger, some much younger, some older, some single, some married. But since my wife does a fairly good job at keeping my balls drained, I can appreciate these gestures more for what they are – simple expressions of love and respect for me as a person. This is why I wrote in this post that it is possible to love others purely without jumping to sex. But it takes a mature abundance mindset to get past the obsession with coitus and vagina worship. Ultimately, I believe this is God’s purpose in all of this – to learn how to depend on Christ alone. You can’t really get to this state just from praying and studying the Bible. You have to do the hard messy work of overcoming.

    I really appreciate what Jason wrote about walking across Abbey road, mountain climbing and so on. I’m sure these endeavors also carried their own unique sets of costs, risks, and “transgressions”. Moreover, there are other ways for men to achieve an abundance mindset and overcome.

    Like

    • I agree with DS, in saying that when there’s a will (or faith) there’s a way. In past posts, I’ve called this approach “the orange pill”.

      Personally, I’ve always believed that part of my mission in life was to marry and have children. But I was never happy with the quality of women who came my way in America. At some point, I realized that I had to allow my desire to become more of a motivating factor. I had to work harder, spend more money, lift weights, meet more women, try new things, take more risks, travel abroad, learn another language, pray more, earn another degree, be more humble, adjust my expectations… And all this only scratches the surface of desire. Eventually, I was able to get to a place/state in which I was getting so much Meet Cute action that I couldn’t resist the daily onslaught of temptation. That was when I got married.

      Yup, most men won’t put full effort. That’s just the way it is I guess.

      It’s one thing to know and another thing to do. Much like the Christian walk.

      Liked by 1 person

  20. @ Scott

    I’ve also been watching a lot of the red-pill content on youtube and such and the reality is that the incentive is to do change is possible, because it sells superchats and books. My message is “I’m not sure what works. And neither is anyone else” which is why I don’t make much money doing this.

    I also think the genetic research is stronger than neuroscience at predicting broad, macro level behaviors. I’m at roughly 35,000 clinical contact hours in my practice and I have not seen much in the way of deep, temperament level change that sticks. And I have been trying to drag that horse across the finish line for years. The only exception to this is Christ and the changes He makes in people. I cannot explain religious experiences or conversions.

    I agree in part. Christ can totally transform (and I think there are certain earthly/physical reasons for that aside from the Holy Spirit), but let’s lay that aside for a sec.

    Things like the Big 5 personality traits don’t change much if at all over the course of one’s life. In this respect, temperament and personality are relatively fixed from a young age. I’m not saying to change these types of things though. One should operate within the framework of their own temperament and personality to be the best man they can be. Not every man needs to be some “outgoing, life of the party, charismatic alpha male.”

    To use a fitness analogy that has stuck with me from one of my trainers a decade ago, the best routine is the one you can consistently stick to. There’s many ways to skin a cat in terms of getting strong and muscular. Some stick with a traditional bodybuilder split. Others do full body workouts. Others do circuit training or things like CrossFit. A lot of things work to certain degrees of effectiveness. People just need to find the one that suits their particular personality and temperament and stick with it. No need to be shoving a square peg into a round hole. People easily fall into a dichotomous mindset where there’s only one right and one wrong way to do things. This is barely true anywhere, but it’s a cognitive bias that gives us excuses to not do things.

    There are so many obese to muscular or skinny to muscular transformations out there on the Internet. I bet many would do it if they were promised $1 million to gain 25 lbs of muscle in a few years. But they won’t do it because it will up their attractiveness with women making getting into a relationship and married easier. It makes you think. How important is getting married then? Not as important as most people say it is to them if they’re unwilling to make lifestyle changes.

    Anyway, that’s a bit of a tangent. I’m with you on the fact that Christ produces the largest scale transformations of all. The true irony of this is that really starting to behave like the Bible says (putting God and His mission for us first) really starts to eradicate many of the behaviors that make men and women unattractive is just icing on the cake. But many Christians are stuck in the churchian way of thinking, and so they are not being transformed and still put women on the pedestal.

    Like

  21. lastmod says:

    DS you’rw like trying to talk to Bernie Sanders followers. You tell them something…out spits the same answer. Single men ate not single men because they pedestalize women.

    They are single bc theu are ugly. Emotional IQ is way, way behind other men and other factors or a combination of them.

    Men like YOU pedestalze women. Lets not forget that.

    Jaxk. You and i are just going to disagree. I have lived Scott’s description of not meeting cute…..you say you agree and then tell us there is a way.

    Tell the cripple to go out bsckpacking treks i went on. If there is a will there is a way right? Tell mu brother with Downs Syndrome (RIP) “hey Greg……your reading ability is only first grade. Your’re just not trying. You’re defeatist.”

    Part of at least getting better (still have my rough days) in this area for me waa: knowing in these matters….god / jesus / the sanits / angels……whatever dont care in these matters. They dont hem and haw over “he should have a wife” they could care less. Knowing your place is another thong. If you are indeed a low level guy. You are not going to become a top tier one esp over the age of 35. That’s lying to yourself. Its not healthy and its not living in reality. I have to still push myself to yes take risks…..but risks i do take have rewards and good outcomes. Me hearing again from turds like DS to “have a better mindset” bs at just about 50 is silly.

    Mindset. Yeah. Rock solid frame held in a downpour in the wilderness 60 miles from tbe nearest town. Fire built with mild hypothermia setting in. Blow yourself.

    Mindset. I speal one of the most ancient languages of Europe. Lots of study over the decades. Yet i am defeatist and i pedestalize women.

    No. I learned my limits. Knew what i was good at or not. You are doing a disservice to older single men giving false hope. That causes the anger. The bile.

    You wonder why MGTOW and various movements have grown. You’re part of this.

    Like

    • Ed Hurst says:

      Up to this point, I was ready to entertain your comments. However, once you assert that God doesn’t care, you make yourself totally irrelevant to the discussion.

      Like

    • Jack says:

      Jason…

      “At least part of getting better (although I still have my rough days) in this area for me was knowing in these matters… God / Jesus / the saints / angels…whatever… don’t care in these matters. They dont hem and haw over “he should have a wife”. They couldn’t care less.”

      I’ll accept this as an emotional rant, because I’ve felt the same way in the past, and it proved to be an acceptance of my own hopelessness which then yielded a turn of repentance.

      However, based on my experience, it is more truthful and accurate to say that “God doesn’t care as much as I do about the idolatrous things that I have mistakenly deemed to be more important than what God warrants. There must be something else that is more important to God.”
      Pray like this and you’ll really get somewhere. (And I’m not being condescending. I’m serious!)

      Also, your profusely poor grammar and spelling (which I’ve corrected above) makes me suspect that you’re drunk or something. If this is true, I perceive you’re going through a rough patch and that we need to pray for you. Please kindly confirm or deny.

      Liked by 1 person

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  23. lastmod says:

    Using my phone to post. Usually i reply at work. I cannot get Internet at home bc AT&T will not install until the pandemic passes. Hence why i have not paid attention to my silly blog.

    I just moved back to Fresno. I cannot even get landline installed.

    No. Been clean and sober for 16 years. No relapses ever. I at one time thanked God for this. I then realized “i” held my sobriety. Not God. I did the work. Not God. I paid a price. Not God. Thank you for the concerns though. Apologies on the spelling and all. This keypad and autocorrect is annoying

    Like

  24. lastmod says:

    I repented a long time ago Jack. The repentance didnt matter. What mattered was my actions after. What matters to god? Very little. He’s god.

    When i promised that I was never going to drink or drug again. I was more scared straight than afraid of god. He could care less. No bolts of lightening from heaven struck me down when i was an addict.
    No light from heaven was shown upon me when i was practicing and wasting twelve years on the streets helping in “his name” the lost and broken. I should have looked for meet cute and put my energies there being arrogant, cocky and self righteous…..that is what attracts a “Christian wife” and meet cutes.

    Following the ministry of jesus in the streets? Strictly for the birds and it evidently somehow means i was somehow pedestalizing women and being blue pilled as well.

    Doesnt matter anymore. What matters in the future of the christian faith in the west and the USA is getting married.

    The older men like myself should serve as a warning to the younger guys. Be an a-hole. Be a real SOB. Meet cute or cutes…get married THEN repent.

    Like

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