Opportunities

Missing milestones seems pretty hard to overcome to me.

Readership: This insight is specifically for Christian men challenged with the task of choosing a suitable spouse.  It may also be of interest to married couples or those interested in marriage or LTR’s.

Author Information: The compilation of this post was a joint effort by Scott and Jack.

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Scott made a video that is “sort of” a companion to the piece he posted on Monday, Probabilities (2020 February 24).

Have you ever had a Meet Cute?

Several comments about this video were extracted from the discussion under the post, A Response to Jason’s Comments (2020 February 21), and have been adapted below in an easy-to-read format.

To offer a heuristic comparison of the longitudinal results of a Meet Cute, based on how a man might react, Jack and Scott offer our accounts of how we responded, and how it turned out for us.

Scott’s Account of messing it up, but getting it right

I’m not exaggerating when I say I have never had to go more than about 2 weeks without an option placing herself in front of me.  And my developmental argument stands – that started at 16 and never let up until I was married the first time at 23.  My first wife (who eventually frivorced me) was absolutely crazy about me, and called off her engagement to another man the nanosecond she found out I was on the market again (after a breakup I had).  What those experiences did for me is created what sociologists (and red-pill guys have latched onto) call an abundance mentality.  It never occurred to me to go looking because I just knew that something would land in my lap.  I just had to go about the business of whatever I was doing in the meantime.

What I mean is, feedback loops are real.  You get good reviews in the form of IOIs right out the puberty gate and they build on themselves to the point where you just expect more of the same.

I don’t know what it is.  I am not super model attractive.  I am 6’1″ and I take care of myself, but I have the same insecurities and negative traits as just about anybody else.  I’m goofy, sometimes self-deprecating, and am very quiet in social settings.  I stand up straight, look people in the eye and speak in a pretty low, bass voice, but that’s about it. I just know my limitations and I am comfortable in my own skin.

All of this is why I am not tracking the “natural alpha” verses “learned alpha” stuff. I am a regular guy with what I assume are regular guy experiences. I win some and I lose some. I just never give up.

Jack’s Account of doing it right, but getting it wrong

After reading Scott’s post Probabilities (2020 February 24) and watching the video, I’ve done some reflection on my own experiences, and found similarities concerning the Meet Cute phenomenon.  If she was really loopy in love with me, then it was really hard for that relationship to go south – all other things notwithstanding.  Having sex with such a woman sets that in stone.  Female infatuation (or whatever you want to call it) can be so strong that it can endure eternally!  Even after I got married, a couple of my past lovers made it clear that they were only a phone call away.

As far as the man is concerned, as Scott and others have said before, there really isn’t anything he can do to create that initial attraction in a woman, and I’ll add that, according to my experience, there isn’t much he can do to destroy it either.  It’s either there, or it’s not.  The only thing he can do is to be wise in choosing a woman who joyfully flies in circles around him. This news is bound to be disheartening for most men.

In my case, I dismissed many of those relationships because they lacked certain other qualities that I believed were more important for a marriage.  (These qualities concerned things like age, race, virginity, past experiences, our agreement on political issues and religious beliefs, among others).  I also found her craziness (caused by being in love with me) to be embarrassing, obnoxious and troublesome.

I rejected these opportunities simply because (1) I didn’t see them as “marriage material” (according to the mental criterion I held at the time), and (2) I was afraid of fornicating with someone I couldn’t envision as a possible wife.

Now, 20-30 years later, I have many deep regrets about rejecting those relationships.  To be graphically honest, I wish I would have taken advantage of the blatant sexual invitations those women gave me.  But I chose not to do that because I believed it was wrong.  I never thought I would regret doing what I thought was the right thing, and I know I shouldn’t feel regretful about that, but I do.  I regret it to the point that the sudden recurrent memory of those moments startles me awake at night.  So it continues to grieve and trouble me, even to this day.

I’m not saying that I should have fornicated.  That’s not my point here.  I’m saying that my fear of fornicating prevented me from exploring and examining those relationships as viable candidates for marriage, and now I regret missing those opportunities.

In all, I think the reason I feel regretful is because I was too particular (critical of both her and myself, too legalistic, too fearful of messing up, and not truly appreciating the women God brought into my life for what they coaxed out of me, namely passion, trust (confidence), and humility.

I didn’t understand how a vibrant relationship can lead people to mature, grow, and change.  I didn’t fully understand what it meant to be “saved by grace”, and not by my righteousness under the Law.  (I think I had this conviction because of my strict upbringing, and my involvement in the Purity Movement.)

I should have at least explored the possibilities a little further, experienced God’s grace in the matter, and learned something more from the opportunity.  I am certain this would have contributed greatly to my confidence and maturity, even to this day.  But as it turned out, rejecting those relationships really delayed my emotional maturity and hurt my spiritual growth.

The Importance of Reading IOI’s in Mate Selection

Scott: Rollo has retweeted my video on twitter and asserts that my line of thinking is the basis for the black pill.  That is, I am telling men if you aren’t generating attraction right from the start, you might as well give up and “kill yourself” (His words).

I have spent an entire career trying to get men NOT to kill themselves, so that part was a little hyperbolic.  However, I do get where the rub comes from.  What I am wondering, out loud as I am apt to do, is can there be some focus on calibrating a man’s IOI detection apparatus?  That part I think is lacking in much of this discussion.

Jack: A man’s accurate discernment of womens’ IOI’s plays a crucial role in determining the outcome of his socio-sexual life story.  This subject is well worthy of a detailed analysis, and I expect it will not be a short one.  It will probably require a large number of posts to cover it adequately.

Scott: Novaseeker would respond “Scott has had IOIs from attractive women, or at least women who are attractive to him which is why this is so confusing for him.  And that’s fair enough too.  So I spitball and brainstorm for solutions.  Is the problem one of unrealistic assortive mating selection criteria?  Do only the ones that are invisible to you show IOIs so you do not reciprocate?  Or is it a little of both?  (Not noticing, and not wanting it from the ones who DO show interest?)

Jack’s Conclusions

I’ve come to see there’s an important, perhaps crucial element in courtship that I/we need to explore in future posts.  That is, that the woman’s level of attraction to the man is a key factor leading to a stable, satisfying, successful marriage – not Alpha confidence, Beta provision, low notch count, game proficiency, or any of the other qualities that have been presumed to correlate with positive relationship outcomes.  Of course these qualities play an important part, but they are not the “do all, end all” solutions to having a solid marriage.  There is something else going on.

In my past studies, I’ve gathered that the woman somehow holds the keys to relationship success, but I’ve not been able to nail it down.  I always assumed that the man had a more central role in choosing a mate, and that assigning too much selective discretion to the woman was a form of gynocentrism.  There’s a very ephemeral illusion surrounding our understanding of these matters, made even more confusing by the feminist Churchian environment, and this is what is tripping everyone up.

So far, I think Ed got the closest to nailing it down with this statement.

Ed Hurst: Very few men in our society are trained to think in terms of having a mission in life that would outlive you.  More to the point, they have no idea what it looks like in a woman, so they can’t identify a prospective wife who will be supportive of that mission far, far down the road.  How I learned it as a young man, I’m not sure I can explain, but it was a major criteria when I decided to marry.

Of note, Scott and Derek agreed that Ed’s assertion applies to their own marriages.

At this point, I am guessing that spiritual maturity (discernment and wisdom), and sexual purity would be critical factors in helping a man identify those women that might offer a relationship with greater potential.  Add to this, the man’s ability to read IOI’s and make a discriminating choice among these possible mates.

Scott’s Conclusions

My hypothesis is simple but is complicated by factors in the environment that may be difficult to investigate and control for.  I posit that one very significant factor associated with lifelong marital bliss is “how attracted was the woman to the man from the very start of the relationship?”  I would estimate that higher her initial infatuation, the less lifelong difficulty a couple will have, and the easier time they will have in recovering from adversity.

The present culture assesses “marital satisfaction” according to feminized ideals of what that might look like.  In the context of that culture, men are incentivized and may even sub-consciously self-sabotage accurate depictions of what a satisfying marriage looks like to them, in the service of what TRM calls “the feminine imperative”.  They are likely to make efforts on self report scales, for example intended to make them appear sensitive and capable of something “deeper” than sex.

Most modern men are not comfortable admitting that such a satisfying marriage necessarily includes regular, passionate, enthusiastic sexual access to their wives.  Doing so is to reinforce the negative stereotype of mens supposedly unsophisticated, selfish shallow inability to truly be intimate and express deep love.

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59 Responses to Opportunities

  1. I don’t think this is nearly the blackpill Scott thinks it is.

    Despite his protestations, Scott’s a good-looking guy. Not necessarily a model face, but has a good, solid body type. And not going to get confused for a woman any time soon. And importantly: hard to screw up. Maybe if he got really fat or something, idk.

    I’m the same height, but of slimmer build and with more unruly hair. Also, I get really really into some things sometimes, to the point of just ignoring everyone.

    The reason I mention this is because my guess is that my attractiveness is more variable than Scott’s. I’ve had periods where I couldn’t beat them off with a stick, and periods where I felt like I must have acne or something.

    Over time, I figured out the things that made the difference. Not rocket science—it was mostly LAMPS and whether I was feeling my oats enough for good game to come naturally.

    My point is: I think this is much less binary, and much less written in stone, than the blackpill view might lead one to think.

    Liked by 1 person

  2. lastmod says:

    Very well done. I have to say this is the best post I have ever read about this in a christian forum.

    I have some takes on this…..but what of it at this point?

    I seen in some “darker” MGTOW forums, and a few so-called “black pill” forums that have touched on this for the past few years, and the message is not “go and kill yourself” but more of anger directed towards not men like like Scott, or even Jack…….or married men who “never had a problem in these matters”

    They seem to be more upset at the recycled, repackaged, and re-branded “latest’ new, foolproof methods of getting dates, a girlfriend or wife. Eight easy steps……..just watch this video……I know a guy who is 5’4” and always has a hot girlfriend, pretty easy do actually…..just do this…..just do that.

    And on the christian side of “real manhood” its just being a leader, praying real, real, real, hard. Read the Bible, lead a prayer group, volunteer…….christian women just want a man who follows the word of god.

    Many of you have heard the sarcastic “okay boomer” phrase and seen the meme out there? Many in these forums use many of the phrases listed in sarcasm to these solutions like that meme and phrase: “just take a shower bro!” and “just be alpha bro!” and “you think she’s cute? just walk right up to her, say hello, build attraction, offer your phone number, make her laugh…easy.” and “just be a boss. women don’t care about looks, they just want a leader bro” and many others.

    Scott is right when he mentions (Paraphrasing) “and if a man isn’t getting this, and by a certain age if he never has this….he probably isn’t going to”

    Brutal. But yes, true…….for most men in this situation. I know there are exceptions out there. Yes, everyone knows that guy or girl who met someone when they turned 65. Scott hated to mention this……but sometimes, it’s just “luck”. I know many men who used a phrase of “right place right time” on how they met their wife. That would be my fathers story. Perhaps this could be another way of saying “luck”

    Many in MGTOW are annoyed (usually the leaning Incel side of that vast swath of men in MGTOW) by just being told they have to try harder. Watch more videos, debate which ioi means what and how to build this into getting a girlfriend. Many too get downright mad when regular guys out therew just tell them “looks don’t really matter to women”

    And that lie right there is the rub, the burn, and the salt thrown on an open sore. These men know differently. Scott is a decent looking man. I don’t know how to rate him, but he is better looking than most. I don’t swing that way. Scott, I thank you for your humility here……but you don’t believe you are an unattractive man. You don’t.

    The solution? Well for the christian world…………many of these men are lost, and evidently the church needs them. Most want a sense of belonging, and their fellow men won’t give it to them…..and it would take work to reach them, build trust, and help them find a mission. That would take too much work…..so another bible study, another silly workshop, another “blue pilled” styled workshop to “equip” men will be done. These men see right through it.

    To the secular side. Many do end up “finding” direction through work, hobbies…..they still feel cheating out of something…..but learn to accept their hand….usually the guys that crest into their mid forties to early fifties (Gen X again…….leading the way). Many sadly fall into poor health, bad choices, and blame women for their problems…..and the media, the red-pill-christian sphere LOVE to point to these men. “He’s fat, lives in mom’s basement………no wonder he’s single! Duh!!!”

    This group that Scott mentions in “meet cute” is real, is growing and is much bigger than the church, women, and the red pill world would like to admit.

    Another decade will be spent on blaming or analyzing why these men are like this, more time wasted really.

    These men are going to have to figure something out on their own that is unique to them. I’m still working on this……but what other choice do they have????

    I’m balding fast now, but there is no damn way I am going to be fat, or living in a van…..down by the river

    -end

    Liked by 1 person

  3. lastmod says:

    Face & LMS is supposedly “black pil” and has a big following. His videos are well done, and made. He is from the UK. He has been talking about this for now almost eight years. I don’t find him depressing, but I find him speaking a reality and truth many, many men experience today. The question “why” is it like this today? We can blame women…..our culture and times but I think its deeper. With unlimited choices people have today………..people seem to up the ante and think there is something better. When my parents met in 1964….my dad was about 29. My mother 18. My dad figured my mother was going to be his last chance…..and my mother figured this was the best guy she would attract. Roll of this dice. Luck. Hard work and a “knowing” that options for better probably would not come.

    Have a watch, if you dare

    Like

  4. lastmod says:

    If I do have ONE criticism of this whole post, it is this:

    “This insight is specifically for Christian men challenged with the task of choosing a suitable spouse. It may also be of interest to married couples or those interested in marriage or LTR’s”

    “choosing” as suitable spouse? FINDING one is better word……….choosing assumes a man has plenty of ioi’s dates alot, and has great Game and (cough) Frame. The men that looking to “choose” a suitable spouse this post wouldn’t apply to as much.

    Liked by 1 person

  5. ramman3000 says:

    Let’s consider what deti said…

    “You must, MUST, find a woman who was very sexually attracted to you from the very beginning. You ABSOLUTELY MUST hold out for this. DO NOT get into any relationship with any woman where this is not present.

    …and contrast it with the Face & LMS video that Jason posted above.

    An attractive man, like Scott, is going to have no trouble—from the age of 16 onward—getting a woman who is very sexually attracted to him. He’s going to be in that rare 13% of married men that are completely sexually satisfied. He is the married elite.

    Men like Scott choose. But what about the rest of men, those average men who have sex once per week? They must, as Jason, notes, find (if they can). Deti describes this:

    Sex will be, at best, there to scratch the itch and keep your sexual urges in check. That is the best your sex life will ever be.”

    Let’s not kid ourselves and lie to men. There is only so much a man can do to make himself more attractive. You can’t fight genetics. The sexually desirable men have the looks and if you don’t have them you never will. Men who don’t have looks have a drastically lower chance of a relationship where she is “very sexually attracted to you” (defined as high frequency of sex). He might luck into an elite marriage, but he probably won’t.

    Realistically, the unattractive man is faced with the choice of average sex or no marriage at all. And to make matters worse, he most likely has to marry in his 20s to have any chance at all. Telling him that he MUST hold out for a woman who is very sexually attracted to him is cruel.

    “My take on the piece was “I have lots of sex because I love my wife” and it could be taken….I said could….”well if you don’t have lots of sex with your wife….you are a lesser man, or a man with problems””

    It isn’t the case that you are a lesser man if you are willing to marry a woman who doesn’t give you the elite 13% sex. As Dalrock might say, marriage is not just for the elite.

    Sex is a part of marriage, but marriage is not primarily about sex. When Eve was created, it was first and foremost to be Adam’s helper:

    “Very few men in our society are trained to think in terms of having a mission in life that would outlive you. More to the point, they have no idea what it looks like in a woman, so they can’t identify a prospective wife who will be supportive of that mission far, far down the road. How I learned it as a young man, I’m not sure I can explain, but it was a major criteria when I decided to marry.”

    Like

    • thedeti says:

      Realistically, the unattractive man is faced with the choice of average sex or no marriage at all.

      I would state it like this:

      The average man is faced with the choice of marital sex to a woman who is at best lukewarm about him; or no sex at all.

      Liked by 3 people

    • thedeti says:

      Most men marry for sex. Most men marry because they are having sex with this woman, he wants to keep having that sex, and the only way to “make sure” he gets to keep having that sex is to lock her down and marry her.

      Most men have to work like hell to get women attracted to them. Most men lock down one woman so they won’t have to work so hard for it.

      The other reason most men marry is so they can have families. So they can have something they can call their own. His own castle, his own empire.

      Liked by 2 people

  6. Scott says:

    “Married elite”

    I am totally putting that in my signature block from now on.

    Liked by 4 people

    • ramman3000 says:

      It’s not a compliment per se (see below), but it would be funny in an ironic way. Here are the pertinent quotes from Dalrock:

      “Part of the temptation here is pride, but another part is finding a way to seem traditional without offending our feminist and chivalrous sensibilities. Surely Christian women deserve only the best husbands; they are after all the daughters of the King most high, the pearl of great price. Non exceptional men don’t deserve a wife. This last part is technically true. No man deserves a wife. But we should keep in mind that just like men half of all women are below average, and the vast majority of women are unexceptional. Most women can’t attract an exceptional man. All of those women who are married to the poor excuses for men that we look down on? They are every bit the losers their husbands are! If they had better options they would have taken them. Even if a woman had better options but chose a poor slob for a husband, this generally tells us the woman was gifted with attractiveness but blew it due to being below average in wisdom. Granted there will be a handful of true exceptions, but these aren’t the rule.”

      In a modern climate where many unexceptional women will refuse to marry, the unexceptional men stand little chance of entering marriage. Then factor in that women won’t marry at their level (or lower) because they are pearls of great price, and it gets even worse.

      “So when we look down on unexceptional men as unworthy, we are implicitly looking down on the loser women who can’t do any better. But as Romans 12:10 reminds us, this isn’t a Christian way of looking at things. It also sets marriage up as something only for elite men and women. For if we take the non elite men out of the marriage market, who will their counterpart women marry?”

      Telling unexceptional men that they should stand tough and hold out for the perfect marriage is a bachelor’s sentence for the unworthy. It makes marriage into something only for the elite.

      In the previous post, we agreed that “there is nothing ‘objectively’ wrong about once a week sex”, but there has been strong overtones in several comments that imply that there is something very wrong with this.

      Like

      • Scott says:

        but there has been strong overtones in several comments that imply that there is something very wrong with this.

        I don’t know which comments but I have not ever implied this. There is no number that I adhere to. Mychael and I have become very busy of late, building the house, her travelling nurse position, etc. Several bugs have ravaged through our home so sick sex is no fun. So the frequency waxes and wanes for reasons outside anyone’s control. In six months we might be at it every day for 2 weeks, then something comes up.

        But this is what bugged me about your very first comment on Monday’s thread, and I couldn’t quite put my finger on it until now.

        I think you conflate “what most couples have” with “satisfying” (or something like satisfying) Why should I look at my marriage and compare it the mode when the mode sucks? To soothe my pain in a “misery loves company” scenario?

        You quote statistics about the average couple and how their sex frequency is distributed and I quote statistics about couples who have knock it out of the park chemistry that lasts forever.

        I am going to formulate my thoughts on how I became so almost obsessed with having a passionate life long love affair and write a post about it — if I can figure out a way to tell that story that actually helps men.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Jack says:

        “Telling unexceptional men that they should stand tough and hold out for the perfect marriage is a bachelor’s sentence for the unworthy. It makes marriage into something only for the elite.”

        I agree with this statement, because it’s essentially what I did (holding out for what I believed was perfect). But that line of thinking (that we should tell men NOT to expect perfection) opens a Pandora’s box of trying to determine what “less than perfect” qualities should be admitted or considered “acceptable” towards securing a marriage. Moreover, this approach misses the point of what a good marriage is all about (which was also something I didn’t have a grasp on before too late).
        However, I don’t believe this was what Scott was saying at all. Scott’s message was to underscore the quality of the emotional dynamic as a crucial factor in determining the strength of bonding (in a marriage). That means, even a low SMV man could find a low(er) SMV woman that would go crazy for him, and who would pose a viable opportunity for a marriage.

        Like

  7. larryzb says:

    “I’m not saying that I should have fornicated. That’s not my point here. I’m saying that my fear of fornicating prevented me from exploring and examining those relationships as viable candidates for marriage, and now I regret missing those opportunities.”

    Jack’s thoughts about this are similar to thoughts I have had over time. There is much that we wish we had known or understood when we were young men and looking for a suitable wife.

    Good post all around.

    Liked by 1 person

  8. lastmod says:

    Agreed. This post by Scott and Jack is gold to me. I will be sharing in the few Dischord forums I belong to, and see what some have to say…………yes, some will hate it……no matter what, some will agree but many actually will TALK about it which is better than writing it off or just goosestepping to it. I will keep you informed.

    Scott, your VIDEO on “meet cute” was the most humble, thoughtful and actually GOOD take on it….and it was done in a way that would cause a grip-ton of men in that situation to actually watch it.

    Great comments on this all around to quote larryzb here

    Like

    • Jack says:

      Jason, there’s talk that we’re leading you astray, and this concerns me. Could you tell us exactly why this post is so insightful to you? I need to know what it is that you’ve learned from this.

      Like

  9. ramman3000 says:

    @thedeti

    “The average man is faced with the choice of marital sex to a woman who is at best lukewarm about him; or no sex at all.”

    A few years ago my wife and I were separated (for medical reasons) for 5 months. She had one of the kids, and I had the rest back at home. I was physically with her for one weekend during that time. Despite the misery of being a single parent of three (and it is horrible), I confirmed that even a sexless, but loving, marriage to her was still a thousand times better than being alone. It wasn’t that I preferred that state of affairs, but it was clearly better than any of the alternatives.

    “Most men marry for sex. [..] Most men have to work like hell to get women attracted to them. Most men lock down one woman so they won’t have to work so hard for it.”

    Sure, being in the elite 13% is the obviously preferred (all else equal), but we need to give men practical advice. If they are finders—not choosers—then a lot of them are going to need advice that teaches them to compromise and to fully understand the consequences of what that means.

    Given the time constraints on men (marriage in the 18-32 age bracket), the low marriage rate (< 26%), the low virginity rates (< 10% @ age 25), and other factors, a man willing to compromise needs to do so before it is too late to make a difference.

    Liked by 1 person

  10. Sharkly says:

    Sorry this will be a stream of consciousness rant. The teaching in this post is worldly. While it contains some bits of truth and wisdom, it also contains godless foolishness, perhaps as a result of the two author’s own moral failings and the spiritual naïveté of weighing sexual sins too lightly, that might have contributed to the authors succumbing to them in the first place.

    Scott’s first wife seemed even more sexually charged by him initially than his current wife. If that marriage ended in failure, and assuming his current marriage lasts until death, Scott and these ultra-horny lovers of his have had a 50% success rate, which, I believe, is actually slightly below the average. Results wise, Derek has actually got both Jack and Scott beat with his, less erotic, but 100% lasting first marriage.

    Fornication and Adultery are sins against your own body, the intended temple of the Holy Spirit, and as such we are warned that these sins are worse than others and more to be avoided than others, and these sins have no place in the church or the life of a believer. We are told not to be deceived, that the sexually immoral have no inheritance in the kingdom of God. Once a person is redeemed, if they pollute the temple of God, I suspect there is no further redemption for them. Christ will not be killed afresh for their rebellion, and their last state is worse off than if they had never trampled the grace of God and the blood of Christ underfoot and committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, whom God jealously desires to live within us. God will not be joined to a harlot, if you choose to illicitly join yourself to a whore, I believe you thereby participate in the worship of the great whore while blaspheming the Holy Spirit within you, at the expense of your soul. Don’t be deceived, the twice dead, will no longer have any inheritance in the kingdom of God. Nor should we as Christians idolatrously long for the lovers of our youth, and missed opportunities to defile ourselves with women. If you are indeed a new creature, you should put away the old things.

    Adultery and Fornication were both punishable by death by the divine law of our Holy God. Those who do these things were commanded to be dispatched from our lives and our world, never to pollute our morals again with their ungodly wickedness.

    Martin Luther lamented that when some monarchs of his day quit executing adulterers, their nations were on the slippery slope to an immoral culture. He wasn’t wrong, we’re there now.

    At one point I employed a man who had spent 21 years in jail for murder.(of a liquor store clerk, to get some more beer for free) He was quite ashamed of what he had done, and even was too ashamed to give the details of his drunken crime, but only spoke of it generally. His talk was always full of ownership statements like, “I choose bad friends”, “I put myself in bad situations”, and “I make bad choices”. His AA/NA group leader also worked for me and would often recommend felons who were taking ownership of and making consistent progress in changing their lives for the better. I also employed a young man who had spent three years in jail for stealing car stereos. Any time any conversation ever even hinted at his past thievery, he would go into a lengthy explanation that what he had done was stupid, and he had been a stupid kid, he had learned his lesson, he wasn’t like that anymore, and thievery is a foolish thing that nobody gains from.
    These felons had both been punished for their crimes, and were quite apologetic, and wanted to make sure that they always made it clear that nobody should do what they had done. If I thought somebody was contemplating murder, I wouldn’t hesitate to have that former murderer coach them, knowing that he, better than anybody, would not shy away from convincing them of the devastating consequences of such a selfish and evil choice. If I had the opportunity to have Scott or Jack speak to my sons regarding fornication, I think I’d pass. After reading Scott’s reply on the previous post to my call for him to show more remorse, I’m even more convinced now that it would be beneficial.

    Scott seems to say that, some people respond he is too “legalistically “ down on sin, while others say he is not contrite enough, so, since he can’t please everybody, he will just please himself. Listening to their peers varied opinions (carpe diem Vs. purity culture) and then defaulting to pleasing themselves is likely what led Jack and Scott to become habitual fornicators in the first place. Then Scott said: I’m tired of starting every post with “I know I have a dirt bag sexual past, and here is a list every thing I ever screwed up and sinned about, BUT here’s what I think” It just gets old.”

    I’m not asking you to inject all your faults into every discussion.(nice histrionic strawman) I’m just saying when you do choose to speak of your “dirt bag sexual past”, try not to speak of it so fondly, and wear it like a badge of honor.(You do!) Alpha male credential – serial fornication validated (pussy tingle approved)

    If your attitude was more godly, you would not be so bothered that you couldn’t please the world with your level of expressed repentance, but your focus would be on how does God, and so great a cloud of His holy saints witnessing my life, feel about my words regarding my fornication.

    Although he may not admit it, I think some folks like some of you have stumbled Brother Jason. Don’t make me patch together the quotes to prove it. And, Jason is not as low IQ, as he claims.(I believe Scott described such talk as “self-loathing”) He has been pretty good at picking apart your work here.

    A friend told me that it is pretty hard to shame whores. Unlike the murderer and thief I mentioned, I can hardly recall meeting a whore vociferously repentant. Perhaps there was one mentioned in Luke 7:38 And [she] stood at His feet behind Him weeping, and began to wash His feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed His feet, and anointed them with the ointment.

    That ointment was quite costly and was the fruit of years of harlotry. She had to fuck a lot of guys to buy that alabaster box of spikenard ointment, but she broke the container and poured all of it on Jesus, with evident repentance and remorse for all to see.

    But most generally whores are self-justifying. Proverbs 30:20 Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eateth, and wipeth her mouth, and saith, I have done no wickedness.

    Choose your words of testimony carefully. We will be judged by our own words, and we will only overcome by the blood of Jesus and the word of our testimony. Your testimony should be one of repentance and God’s mercy, not a self-aggrandizing story about what a care free lady killer you were before killjoy Jesus demanded you exit the carousel for a middle-aged life of monogamy. Even boasting that you really stuck the landing on the second try, because women are into you, so you could choose a really infatuated one, still comes off as though you are seeking a validation other than God’s. This worldly validation is only a valuable developmental or maturation step if being cool and fitting into the world well is your priority. If you seek friendship with God, which brings enmity with the world, worldly validation is not a developmental aid, for godliness, but a lure away from it. Jason is undefiled with women, and dearly loved by God. If Jason were to turn back to God, he would likely be closer to God than most of the rest of us.(and God rejoices to make-up with His prodigal sons) Even without having earned your, supposedly developmental, fornication merit badge. /S
    Luke 16:15 And He said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

    Liked by 2 people

    • thedeti says:

      I don’t read the OP that way.

      I read it as pointing out, quite simply, prior errors, and how these men have fixed them. Also, pointing out the very real fact that if a man is not sexually attractive and has not done things to make himself attractive, he’s gonna have a really tough time of it.

      Remember deti’s second law: “There are no functional differences between Christian women and nonChristian women. Christian women are attracted to sexually attractive men just like their secular sisters are. They might be Christians, but they’re still women, with all the faults and foibles that accompany being women. ” We as men ignore that law at our peril.

      Liked by 2 people

    • thedeti says:

      We as men, and the men coming after us, live in the sexual and marriage marketplaces that exist NOW, not the ones we wish existed or that we think should exist. We have to make do with what we have NOW, not what we wish we had or think we should have.

      We have to deal with what IS, not what we wish was, or what we think should be.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Sharkly says:

        Of course we need to live in the world of today. But we need to know our history to figure out how things got off track, how things were often improved, and how they got worse again. And some of us need to make a plan to make things better. Having a huge big plan for how men’s thousand year Reich is going to flourish is not necessary since things can change in unforeseen ways in just a few years. But after analyzing the past and mulling the potential future, it is good to plan your best next step to get things to where you think they might be made to head. Are you steaming towards New York, or just randomly dodging icebergs? It’s best if you can also be progressing to where you need to go while dodging the seemingly immoveable objects.

        Like

    • Jack says:

      Sharkly wrote,

      “Scott’s first wife seemed even more sexually charged by him initially than his current wife. If that marriage ended in failure, and assuming his current marriage lasts until death, Scott and these ultra-horny lovers of his have had a 50% success rate, which, I believe, is actually slightly below the average. Results wise, Derek has actually got both Jack and Scott beat with his, less erotic, but 100% lasting first marriage.”

      You have made a logical error here. The choice of a horny mate was not necessarily the direct cause of the split. The claim that “sexual attraction is absolutely necessary, but not sufficient for marital success” is still valid.

      Like

      • ramman3000 says:

        “The claim that “sexual attraction is absolutely necessary, but not sufficient for marital success” is still valid.”

        Let’s examine this claim and see if it is non-biblical framing.

        First, a marriage requires a man having sex with an unmarried woman. Sexual attraction is not a necessary factor, only the sexual act.

        Second, many marriages fail to (1) be submissive and obedient (e.g. 1 Cor 7) and (2) treat marriage as permanent (e.g. Matt 19). These benefit from, but do not require, sexual attraction.

        Third, the NT explicitly requires that husbands agape (not eros) love their wives (Eph 5). Jacob’s loveless sexual attraction to Leah or Elkanah’s loveless sexual attraction to Peninnah meant little to them.

        Fourth, while any marriage without unfaithfulness or divorce is ‘successful’, historically children were considered the primary indication of a marital success. Jacob’s sexual attraction to Rachel or Elkanah’s sexual attraction to Hannah meant little to them without children.

        Fifth, many valid marriages in the Bible are not characterized by sexual attraction. Most interesting with Leah, Rachel, Peninnah, and Hannah is how unimportant erotic sexual attraction was. It isn’t even mentioned. Their primary concern was either non-erotic love or having children. Sexual attraction was hardly Leah’s and Rachel’s primary concern. They got into a proxy battle of children:

        “Sexual attraction is so super-de-duper important to me….here, husband, have sex with my servant girl, and make sure you get her pregnant TWICE!”

        A good marriage involves shared purpose (e.g. helpmate), harmony (e.g. Proverbs 21:9,19) and erotic love (e.g. Proverbs 5:18–19; Ecclesiastes 9:9; Song of Solomon; Hebrews 13:4), but to say it is absolutely necessary is unsupported.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Sharkly says:

        I’m actually pretty good with logic. I never said that the horny mate was the cause of the split. And sexual attraction might be quite beneficial, but it isn’t absolutely necessary. I’ve got an obese cousin that married a blind man. I’m not really sure what he sees in her.

        Like

      • Sharkly says:

        I heard a story concerning Martin Luther. Apparently some nuns escaped from a convent hidden in a wagon and wound up transported to Wittenberg. A local said: “A wagon load of vestal virgins has just come to town, all more eager for marriage than for life. God grant them husbands lest worse befall.” Apparently Luther’s underlings were able to arrange marriages for all but one of the nuns, who, legend tells us, was not very pretty. Luther eventually came to the conclusion that “his marriage would please his father, rile the pope, cause the angels to laugh, and the devils to weep.” So Martin Luther married the ugly duckling to set a precedent for the clergy of his Lutheran church. Apparently he felt she would make good household help. And that she did.

        So, at least from the man’s side, the physical attraction is not a necessity. And while I suspect that attraction is more necessary for the woman, I still think some women could have a successful marriage without it.
        I had a teacher in Junior High who had been a model, and was ridiculously hot. She looked like young Pamela Anderson and wore the sexiest clothes. She turned on many of us students, And a fellow student got suspended for publicly yelling out that the principal had a boner, once when the principal was talking to her in front of many students. And the student was clearly correct. For whatever reason, she had married a man who was a burn victim. When asked why, she claimed he was a really good man and a really good husband. Apparently she hadn’t been looking primarily for physical good looks.

        Like

  11. Sharkly says:

    Dalrock said: “No man deserves a wife.”
    That’s cunt worship!
    1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. 8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. 9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

    Every man is created in the image and glory of God. God knew It was not good for the man to be alone, So God made him a help meet for him. Apparently God felt men, whom He made to image Himself and share in His glory, deserve wives, and so God made women, to be the glory of men.
    Ecclesiastes 9:9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which He hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.

    Incels are jealous for their portion.

    I deserved a wife. Prove me wrong. … Actually don’t bother. You’d be wasting your effort trying to convince me I’m unworthy of my portion of what God created for men.

    Like

  12. Scott says:

    I’ve really knocked it out of the park with these two posts, having been decorated with two awards.

    Married elite
    Fornication Merit Badge

    I’ve been fascinated for a long time by the topic of causing others to stumble. I have found that in 9/10 cases, when this charge is leveled, it is exactly backward. Recalling that the stumblers in the analogy were brand new Christians in danger of being turned off by rigid, set in their ways religious folks, I try to always remember that.

    It is usually used by older, further along in their journey Christians to make other Christians they disagree with stop doing something they don’t like

    No one here is a babe in Christ. Jason has been active in the Savlation Army ministry for decades. There is nothing I could say or do to make him question his faith, and I get the feeling he is just really angry. That is undesrstandable in context.

    Liked by 1 person

  13. lastmod says:

    My man Sharkly!

    Causing me to stumble? I did that on my own the first time I ever did a line of cocaine. I was raised better, and I knew better. Bad choices that made me lose a decade of my life that I am still rebuilding and paying a price for……even with 15 years of sobriety and not one relapse.Folsk in the church, beta or alpha……….never made me forget. But their past?????? Oh, well……god says this, god means that…..jesus said……

    These men (including you) did not make me leave the faith. I did. My choice. I was pretty hopeless when I arrived and still stuck after a very long time. I just realized I didn’t want to spend an eternity with a bunch of folks who would always be “better” than me in anything and everything….and then patted on the head like a “good dog” and told me “christianity is suffering” while they got to reap the rewards….and I had to you know “scrub the toilets” for them.

    It;s not that I went back to drugs. Nor went back to a sinful life……I just wanted some plain acceptance in a faith community. I never got that. Never. No hate on Scott or you here…………but none just viewed me as a man. I was viewed in a context of terms greek terms, charts, IQ tests, metrics, and of course “bitter” if the so called sage advice wasn’t working that was so “lovingly” given. I wasn’t trying hard enough……the usual. I figured at least out of the church I could at least try to repair my self-esteem.

    In the christian faith in the end “god made a few better than most” and those were who not made “better” have to suffer in the name of eternity while the few……well, they have all the answers. Just be like them. Easy. No problem.

    Jack…….what was the best thing of this post? What I liked is the fact that someone (Scott) and I must admit “I” was even a bit surprised that he was acknowledging…..not justifying, or making excuses………….that yes…..some men, well………they are not going to meet cute. He didn’t say it was because “they are ugly” nor did he state “they are just beta losers who need to man up”

    He plainly stated that there are men like this……..he didn’t give us the answer, nor did he try to break it down as to why……nor did he tell them to read Rollo’s book, or talk to “their pastor”

    He…..as a man who is married. Who does have a good marriage, and has never had this problem just put it out there. The comments (including Sharkly) have been excellent. There has not been on this post “negs” or slams on people…..it’s a topic that NEEDS to be addressed in the ‘sphere. Not with, well…..let’s get some solutions here……and maybe some will indeed come in time.

    If I, or some guy in the MGTOW or Incel world said this (and I have hinted at it at times on Dalrock’s forum) the “you’re bitter / jealous / cuckservative / omega / beta / blue-pilled sap” would have come out.

    The biggest help was indeed that Scott brought this up, and he did it with a short video, and it was just done right. Not too long. Not solutions of “this is black pill, fuck those losers”. Something like this facing many men…..christian or not HAD to be ssaid by a man like Scott. That is why it was helpful

    Flame away!

    Liked by 1 person

    • ramman3000 says:

      “it’s a topic that NEEDS to be addressed in the ‘sphere”

      This is why I participate in this blog, even though I disagree with a lot of its content. For over a year now, I’ve felt that this blog is the most likely place where this could occur.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Jack says:

      Jason, I’m glad to know that you got something good out of this post. And I agree with Scott, that causing others to stumble usually involves the use of legalism to inflict guilt trips and performance anxiety. True spiritual vitality requires one to live life authentically and from the heart. Stumbling is when that vitality gets shut down.

      Liked by 2 people

  14. ramman3000 says:

    “Scott’s message was to underscore the quality of the emotional dynamic as a crucial factor in determining the strength of bonding (in a marriage).”

    I believe that marriage primarily requires intellectual assent. Once marriage was largely contractual (e.g. arranged marriage). Participants prioritized roles and responsibilities, despite any battling emotions. Romantic love, sexual attraction, and other positive feelings normally developed in most cases, but they were optional.

    God united woman to man as a helper in shared purpose. Treating the emotional dynamic as crucial is an error. A (romantically) loveless marriage is as sacred, valid, and important to God as the reckless passionate one.

    “But that line of thinking opens a Pandora’s box of trying to determine what “less than perfect” qualities should be admitted or considered “acceptable” towards securing a marriage”

    No marriage is perfect. None. It is essential that a future husband realize that his wife is not going to be ideal. Both must compromise. Historically, both parties tended to accept this as a matter of course. Every unmarried man must decide for himself to risk admitting “less than perfect” qualities into his marriage. He must do so!

    “While it contains some bits of truth and wisdom, it also contains godless foolishness, perhaps as a result of the two author’s own moral failings and the spiritual naïveté of weighing sexual sins too lightly, that might have contributed to the authors succumbing to them in the first place. [..] Adultery and Fornication were both punishable by death by the divine law of our Holy God. “

    Sexual sins—fornication, adultery, divorce and remarriage, pornography—cause permanent damage. There is a reason that divorce—specifically—disqualifies a person from being an overseer in the church. In the Anabaptist tradition being divorced usually meant a permanent disqualification from being a pastor (and possible removal from the fellowship). It is very serious!

    Let me preface the following by saying it is my opinion. I’m not prepared to state it definitively, though I cite the evidence where I can.

    Science tells us that, in men, sex releases dopamine which acts as a drug that leads men to desire more sex. The sexual sins do likewise: creating a craving for more. Sex is highly addictive and desirable. It is especially dangerous that the feelings it creates are self-justifying: they feel so right.

    The research cited earlier found that on average marriages with high passion tend to end up with low passion as the decades fly by. But, those marriages with sexual moderation end up with more moderate passion. Perhaps this is due to higher stability, maturity, discipline, or self-control. This…

    “And although its clear (I guess) that they love their wives, it looks like they haven’t really F$%&ed each other in decades. Maybe they are having their once a week sex”

    …is a problem. It is unduly negative. It is a false witness. It presumes that the great majority of marriages are broken and unhappy, even though the statistics do not support this claim. It discounts the possibility that these relationships can be normal, healthy, and thriving.

    A marriage focused on sex misses the mark. Even in marriage it is possible to worship sex. Non-procreative sex is fantastic entertainment, but it doesn’t pay the bills, raise the children, produce great works of civilization, or fulfill the Great Commission. IMO, sexual sins cause one to misvalue sex.

    “I’m just saying when you do choose to speak of your “dirt bag sexual past”, try not to speak of it so fondly, and wear it like a badge of honor. (You do!)”

    My suggestion to men like caterpillar345 is to master the sexual urges. Mastery is a masculine virtue that will serve well. Whatever you do, don’t take her for a ‘test drive’ to determine sexual compatibility. Men with a ‘dirt bag sexual past’ or those who have already married know how sexual compatibility works, but this actually a liability. It took me a long time to realize and fully accept this.

    If you fall in love with a woman and marry her, be understanding of her sexual needs, even if that means sacrificing your own. If she was totally into you before you married, maybe she will after marriage…but maybe not. As said previously:

    “The duties of a husband and wife towards each other (e.g. 1 Cor. 7; Eph. 5) are not conditional. A husband has an irrevocable and unconditional duty to behave properly towards his wife, and she to him. Failures require repentance. It is unacceptable to hold grudges or fail to repent even if the spouse fails to repent.”

    If your wife defauds you sexually, work to repair that. If you fail, your recourse is to love her more. This is a difficult truth! These are traditional Protestant marriage vows that my wife and I, more-or-less, exchanged:

    “…to have and to hold, from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death do us part…”

    They are, notably, unconditional.

    Liked by 2 people

    • caterpillar345 says:

      Please read my long comment below first.

      I do agree that mastery is an important masculine virtue. It is, in fact, one that I need to become better at in other aspects of my life. However, in the context of my long comment below, I have come to believe mastering my sexual urges by completely denying them doesn’t seem to be a wise long-term strategy. In fact, it appears that it may (at least in my case) have contributed to what seems to be a missing milestone. However, as you said:

      Sexual sins—fornication, adultery, divorce and remarriage, pornography—cause permanent damage.

      The sexual sins do likewise: creating a craving for more. Sex is highly addictive and desirable. It is especially dangerous that the feelings it creates are self-justifying: they feel so right.

      IMO, sexual sins cause one to misvalue sex.

      I recognize that these may be valid points and that I may be discounting it. However, as I was trying to get at in my original comment on “Probabilities” and as I mentioned in my long post below,

      And, as I’ve recently discovered, there are some leaps of learning involved with that assumption such as how one develops and discovers what the physical side of a relationship looks like and means to him prior to committing to one woman for the rest of his life (while continuing to be a virgin, live a chaste life, and expecting her to do the same)!

      Unsurprisingly, I now find myself with no framework for how to initiate/engage in any level of physical intimacy, even to reciprocate if a girl was showing overt physical attraction to me. I know what I want in my mind and I know it when I see it in other people (i.e. Scott and Mychael) but I just can’t seem to put it together myself in my own real-life experience.

      I’m probably overthinking it but I just fail to understand how I’m going to end up with any semblance of a fulfilling physical relationship by me and a hypothetical potential wife going from none to anything goes after saying “I do.” But I suppose it will just happen naturally or it will just happen because I’ve done what God said and stayed chaste until marriage or something…

      So again, the question I keep asking is something like “How do I, coming from a rather traditional, “hands-off, no touching” approach to relationships (and presumably intending to marry a similar woman) understand whether we will be sexually compatible for the rest of my/our life?” Perhaps there is no good/straightforward/universal answer. As I have a tendancy to do I’m probably looking for an “equation” that I can solve and get “the answer.” One way to look at it is that the process of discovery along the way is what makes life interesting. But another way to look at it is that I’d like to seek the advice of men with more experience than me so that I might make fewer mistakes.

      At this point I think I’m rambling and just trying to talk through my thoughts so I’ll wrap it up for tonight.

      Again, I say (more for my own reminder than anything) that I am not going to be bitter or be a victim of whatever circumstance I find myself in. I will move forward and do something, even it turns out to be wrong. At this point, I think it better to start moving – do something – and correct the errors as I go than to continue to stay where I am and wait for the perfect plan.

      Like

      • ramman3000 says:

        “Please read my long comment below first.”

        I ask for your forbearance for the long general or abstract comments that follow. While I hope they benefit you, you deserve more specific useful advice. I think I have some in regards to your long comment, but it will have to wait until I have more time to write.

        “How do I…understand whether we will be sexually compatible for the rest of my/our life?” [..] I’m probably overthinking it but I just fail to understand how I’m going to end up with any semblance of a fulfilling physical relationship by me and a hypothetical potential wife going from none to anything goes after saying “I do.” But I suppose it will just happen naturally or it will just happen because I’ve done what God said and stayed chaste until marriage or something…”

        While dating, my wife and I spent ~90% of our time apart. We attended different colleges in different states. She spent a semester in a foreign country. During the little time we had together—summers, breaks, and internships—we kept physical contact to holding hands and hello/goodbye hugs. I recall that we once exchanged two short kisses on the cheek before she left for a foreign country for months.

        I’ve been to dozens of weddings. The weddings of those who gave it all away before their wedding day were nice, but they were not…hungry. Not so for our wedding, for we had saved it for that day. Our marriage began like any arranged marriage, except that we had the advantage of already being deeply in love. I have no regrets for that choice.

        “Men with a ‘dirt bag sexual past’ or those who have already married know how sexual compatibility works, but this is actually a liability. It took me a long time to realize and fully accept this.”

        It was scary to marry without knowing what our ‘sexual compatibility’ was. We had read some books on sex, but nothing prepares you for the reality. For a while, even after marriage, I wished I had known the answer to your question. I was wrong.

        I’ve been married now for a long time and I know all about sexual compatibility. Had I taken her for a test drive—as statistics show—I would have had a substantially higher risk of marital sexual dissatisfaction, divorce, or one of us might have decided not to marry! ‘Sexual compatibility’ is a lie and I now know it to be a liability.

        We faced the vulnerability and unknown together. It was raw. It was messy. It was intense. It was scary. It was fun. It was easy. It was extremely difficult. Non-virgin men don’t get to experience this with their non-virgin wives, but it is how God intended it to be.

        “sexual sins cause one to misvalue sex”

        I do not mean that sex is unimportant. Try to find a wife who is totally into you! You absolutely can and should learn her views are on, say, 1 Cor. 7:5. When I say ‘sexual (in)compatibility’ below, I’m not necessarily referring to having or not having sex, but the expectations and intensity of emotion. I’m primarily referring to the value that you place on sex.

        Sexual sins cause one to misvalue sex: overvalue it, undervalue it, or misjudge its role. The sexual experiences, fetishes, and expectations that you bring into marriage only get in the way of adapting to your wife and she to you.[1] Anyone extolling the virtues of sexual compatibility is saying that preferred sexual expectations are of higher importance than the marriage. This is a lie!

        Do you know that 75% of women experience pain during sex at least once, and for some this more frequent, even chronic? Do you know that “about 75% of all women never reach orgasm from intercourse alone”?[2] Do you know that many women have hormonal, mental, or emotional imbalances that affect their libido? Would you refuse to marry an otherwise perfect girl because of any of these? After all, isn’t ‘sexual compatibility’ important? It is not.

        You’d be a fool to turn down a godly wife because of ‘sexual incompatibility’. For example, If you found out you could only engage in mutual masturbation with each other, but she was an amazing person, you’d be a fool to turn that down. Yeah, you’d be very disappointed, but your disappointment would be directly proportional to the expectations you brought into marriage, your inability to master your sexual urges, and your inability to love and adapt. If you do nothing else, reflect on the story Sharkly told about Martin Luther.

        I’m not going to promise you that it will happen naturally or that you will have a fulfilling physical relationship. I can cite many statistics that say you probably will, but maybe you won’t. The hardest truth is acknowledging that there is no magic formula that will guarantee a fulfilling physical relationship:

        “Perhaps there is no good/straightforward/universal answer.”

        A Christian can’t test-drive his future wife, so there is no legitimate way to guarantee ‘sexual compatibility’. Logically, if sexual compatibility can’t be guaranteed, then it can’t be essential. If it isn’t essential, then focusing on it is misguided and any attempts to make it essential are not biblical. My examples from the Bible (e.g. Jacob, Leah, and Rachel) support this. You can still have a highly fulfilling marriage regardless. Much of that is up to you.

        [1] This can lead to being dissatisfied with “boring” sex and desiring “kinky” sex. It is very damaging when one’s experiences and expectations prevent one from enjoying simple and basic experiences, especially if the partners have different expectations.

        [2] It can be incredibly difficult for those 75% of women who cannot reproduce the idealized sex that they see on TV and movies. Such sex is one form of pornography—sexual sin—that is under-recognized. It can be incredibly damaging to the expectations of both men and women (e.g. inflame the passions of men and suppress the passions of women).

        Like

      • Jack says:

        Derek is right about the test drive argument. It is an excuse based on the augmentation of doubt. If you’re both fresh virgins, then you create your own sexual compatibility.

        Liked by 2 people

  15. Pingback: The extent of attraction | Christianity and masculinity

  16. Scott says:

    Derek we get it

    Especially those of us in canonical faith traditions

    You are talking about the elements that must be present in order for a marriage to formed in the technical sense

    I have a marriage like that even I don’t really Mychael. I’m
    Orthodox.

    That’s not what either of these posts are about and I’m pretty sure you know that.

    I just don’t get why you feel the need to be so obtuse about it.

    Like

  17. Scott says:

    Somewhere in one of these threads you quoted Dalrocks musings about how the new paradigm
    Is that romantic love sanctifies marriage rather than the other way around— as if this is an argument against what is being discussed here

    We all agree that marriage is the moral context for pursuing sex and romance.

    This post is about making that pursuit less of a pain in the ass by finding features in the pre-marriage chemistry set so the couple doesn’t have to work so hard at it.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Jack says:

      “We all agree that marriage is the moral context for pursuing sex and romance.”

      We all agree that marriage is the moral context for pursuing sex and romance – according to the Bible and basic rationale. But the reality on the ground is that marriage is the ideal context for pursuing sex and romance, and this ideal is rarely achieved. This is what Deti was getting at when he wrote,

      “We as men, and the men coming after us, live in the sexual and marriage marketplaces that exist NOW, not the ones we wish existed or that we think should exist. We have to make do with what we have NOW, not what we wish we had or think we should have.
      We have to deal with what IS, not what we wish was, or what we think should be.”

      This is where it gets ugly and messy. If we just tell young men the ideal, we aren’t helping them much. If we tell them that sex is not (very) important for marriage, as Derek has been saying, then we’re actually pushing them away from the Christian ideal and perhaps also from the faith.
      A few commenters have already pointed out that young men get married for sex (and having children). This is an undeniable fact. It may not be polite or acceptable, it may not be the right motivation to marry, but this is the reality. We need to identify the ways in which men can meet this desire in a moral context, because this desire isn’t going to disappear next week. I think Scott’s (and Deti’s) arguments contribute to this end.

      Liked by 1 person

      • caterpillar345 says:

        Jack, I think this is the most accurate summary of the discussions here and in Probabilities. I can personally attest to your statement’s accuracy:

        This is where it gets ugly and messy. If we just tell young men the ideal, we aren’t helping them much. If we tell them that sex is not (very) important for marriage, as Derek has been saying, then we’re actually pushing them away from the Christian ideal and perhaps also from the faith.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Jack says:

        We also need to distinguish between marriage as an ideal, and marriage as the death trap it has become.

        Like

  18. Sharkly says:

    There are some contemplation worthy thoughts given, in the following link, on how much of marriage is a matter of the will, and how much is a matter of emotion:
    https://marriagemissions.com/quotes-ravi-zacharias-marriage-message-340/
    If I recall correctly, Ravi’s brother didn’t actually physically meet his bride until about a week before their arranged wedding. However he had already decided he was going to love her.

    …the new paradigm is that romantic love sanctifies marriage…
    Keep up. That was a few years back. Now it is “consent” that sanctifies sex, not romance or marriage. /S

    Liked by 1 person

    • Sharkly says:

      Since “consent” is now what sanctifies sex, if a girl wants to “revenge fuck” some friend or relative to get back at her ex, or fuck the old scabby guy who owns the mega yacht so that she will be invited on his next lavish cruise, or indulge a short fat scabby movie producer’s perversity … its all cool … until she later claims her consent was coerced.
      That’s where Christian husbands run afoul of the cunt worshipping churches. If you try to coerce your wife to provide the sex she vowed with guilt or Bible verses or bribes or negative reinforcement, the synagogue of Satan will drop on you like a ton of bricks, because a woman’s consent is sacred, and not to be toyed with and manipulated by mere men. If she consents to fuck other dudes, because of your abusive desire for sex, the church will console her and offer her their victim’s services. Women really can’t sin anymore. Romance not required. Furthermore if you get mad about it, that then proves your guilt. Because no goddess should have to live with anything but unconditional acceptance of her most wicked behavior. The church has full time staff just hired to make up excuses for defrauding wives. They’ve got a whole list of ready made shit they’ll throw at you without even knowing who your wife is. It obviously can’t be her fault, because – Vagina!

      Liked by 1 person

  19. caterpillar345 says:

    Scott, Jack, Ramman, Sharkly, Derek, Jason… thanks for continuing the discussion. It’s something that’s really on my mind these days. Feels like a very alienating topic to discuss with any people I know in real life. I can only imagine what it would be like if I asked these questions of my pastor, my parents, or even other trusted people I seek advice from. I think I would be looked at like I have 3 eyes!

    I believe if we were all had the opportunity in real life we could sit down with a couple beers and talk for hours.

    Liked by 3 people

    • lastmod says:

      You can all drink the beer. I’ll have a Pepsi or if its summer a tonic and a bunch of limes in a pint glass. No straw. Older men who have not “met cute” dont need to have input per say but they need to be accepted not as lesser men but driven and pushed to find areas to serve to lead and grow. You are not going to take a 37 year old semi sucessful man….college educated and make him into some sort of cassinova or ladies man if he is “average” or “below” looks wise. Its not happening. That ship has sailed. Yes, he could meet someone but not the norm. Yes he could be introduced and sure…get married. Get sex. Perhaps it will be great maybe okay. Ask him that when / if he gets there. What he needs from men like Scott or men like him…..and Derek. If a fellowship of men is indeed needed in this world. This kind of man will at least have to be considered. This segment is growing and assuming they all have Cheeto dust on them us really shortchanging yourselves

      Liked by 1 person

  20. caterpillar345 says:

    In an attempt to contribute something to further understanding, I thought I might add a data point of experience (at the risk of exposing myself on the internet to a bunch of anonymous strangers…)

    After watching Scott’s video and reading the section in this OP, “Jack’s Account of doing it right, but getting it wrong,” I find myself nervously agreeing, based on my own experience. The following statements from Jack really resonate with me (Hey! I resemble that remark!!):

    In all, I think the reason I feel regretful is because I was too particular (critical of both her and myself, too legalistic, too fearful of messing up, and not truly appreciating the women God brought into my life for what they coaxed out of me, namely passion, trust (confidence), and humility….

    …(I think I had this conviction because of my strict upbringing, and my involvement in the Purity Movement.)

    I should have at least explored the possibilities a little further, experienced God’s grace in the matter, and learned something more from the opportunity.  I am certain this would have contributed greatly to my confidence and maturity, even to this day.  But as it turned out, rejecting those relationships really delayed my emotional maturity and hurt my spiritual growth.

    Similar to Jack, I’ve been a part of the Purity Culture and had a more or less conservative Christian upbringing. All my life up to recently, I’ve had a very big focus on doing everything “right” and been “afraid” of fornicating (whatever that means). I have three distinct memories from about age 16 to 18 that relate.

    One was the exhilarating experience of sitting right next to (touching) a pretty young girl who was into me (and I was into her) at a church-sponsored summer camp. This was in a public setting with other church people around, so pretty innocent looking back on it. After reflecting on this, and realizing how exhilarating it was, I determined that I could never do something like that again (touch a girl in something approximating an intimate way) until I was married, or possibly when engaged, lest I commit the ultimate sin of premarital sex.

    In addition to deciding not to do anything physical, I decidedthere was no real point in pursuing relationships of any kind with girls since I had no way of acting on a relationship if it did turn out well (i.e. getting married and having a paying job) until I was done with my education (4+ years in higher ed).

    Finally, I remember a specific conversation with a former boss as I was about to head off to college after I graduated from high school. He said something about how he had a couple buddies who were top academic performers in high school who then went to the college I was going to, partied, and essentially came to nothing. He on the other hand, went to trade school, learned to weld, and started his own excavation business (where I was working for him years later). After that conversation, coupled with other conversations I had heard from older church members about college-aged attendees who had gone to college and left the church while doing so, I decided I would keep to myself as much as possible when I went to college in a determined effort to avoid such things. I was happy to have my own room, not spend any unnecessary time with any fellow students, and just get in and out with my education. I basically eschewed the idea of parties, extra-curricular clubs, and all parts of the “college experience.”

    I always assumed that I was decent at social interaction and that once I was done with school, I would just “make myself available” and wouldn’t have much trouble finding a suitable mate and that this suitable mate and I would have a fulfilling physical relationship. However, it has not turned out that way (imagine that!). And, as I’ve recently discovered, there are some leaps of learning involved with that assumption such as how one develops and discovers what the physical side of a relationship looks like and means to him prior to committing to one woman for the rest of his life (while continuing to be a virgin, live a chaste life, and expecting her to do the same)!

    In reality, I believe these three things taken together have stunted my growth in several areas like confidence, maturity, emotional, and even spiritual growth. And it’s taken nearly 10 years to realize the effects of these choices. At almost 25, I feel more underdeveloped now than I did when I was, say, 18. To use red pill terminology, I feel like I’ve “wasted” about 5 or so years of the “potential” that a man in his 20’s has (at least in terms of the social skills/relationship aspect of my life).

    Regarding the choice to stay away from social interaction at college, I think it has stunted my social skills, particularly with women, and my networks of friends. I’m not saying I wish I could go back and be a party-hard frat guy, but I only spent time with any other students if I had to work on a group project or study in a group with them. [As an aside, the good thing that came out of this period was that I had time to be hyper-focused on a particular side interest. I developed a solid skillset in it which has served me well in the last 5 years and is a marketable skill if I need it in the future].

    Regarding the decision not to do anything physical, I have stuck with this for the last approximately 10 years since then and have literally never done anything more with any girl than give her a quick hug. Unsurprisingly, I now find myself with no framework for how to initiate/engage in any level of physical intimacy, even to reciprocate if a girl was showing overt physical attraction to me. I know what I want in my mind and I know it when I see it in other people (i.e. Scott and Mychael) but I just can’t seem to put it together myself in my own real-life experience.

    I think there is some truth to needing to have a “meet cute” moment (for lack of a better term) by a certain age for a young man’s confidence, maturity, emotional, and even spiritual growth. To be sure, it’s not the only method of accomplishing these things but I think it would help. I’m also starting to agree with Scott and Jason that if it doesn’t happen by a certain age, it may very well never happen.

    I’m trying my best not to have a victim mentality. But I do want to understand where I am and what constructive things I can do to move onwards and upwards. All I can say is that I’m very thankful to have discovered the manosphere/red pill in the last 2-3 years. It’s taken a long time for me to sift through the various perspectives to find things I can get behind (i.e. less of the PUA mindset). I am still optimistic that in the next 5 years, having recognized all these things, I can improve who I am and the ways I think and hopefully find (maybe choose!) a high-quality wife.

    Like

    • Jack says:

      Caterpillar,
      First of all, most colleges are four-year F@#k-fests for some men and most women. You have to be wary of this if you choose to go to college. I mean, there may be more women there, but fewer marriage-quality women there. However, that said, college is an excellent time to develop your career credential and meet lots of people (i.e. women) and figure out what kind of stuff fits your value set and purposes in life.
      At 25, you’re still young, and your SMV is still rising. So you still have more opportunity to achieve an ideal life trajectory than you did 5 years ago. If I were you, I would set my sights on getting married by 30 and put a concentrated effort on sifting through the choices. Realize that you may have to move to a different church, college, or city (or country, as I did), to maximize your options and flesh out your purpose in life (and a mate who is supportive of the same). Time is of the essence, so don’t waste the next 5 years of your life in a place that isn’t showing you the best of what God has to offer you in life. The manosphere paints a dismal picture of women and marriage, but in fact, the possibilities are much better now than they were 10-30 years ago. You just have to be smart and seek them out.

      Like

    • Caterpiller,

      You’re doing fine. I started the process you’re going through a couple years later than you did. The mere fact that you know you have some things to work on puts you way ahead of most.

      If you need any advice, you’re always free to ask me on my blog and the men should be able to help you out as well.

      Like

  21. Pingback: Trajectories | Σ Frame

  22. lastmod says:

    Caterpillar…..

    I would suggest first do in your faith is pray. Secondly be involved a bit (don’t let it consume your life) in a ministry that isn’t a “mens group” do the food pantry, or community stuff (going with a group to visit the sick, the shut ins), don’t make it your life but stay way from the men in an organized mens group….sure you can help when asked…and go to mens retreats or whatever….in these other ministries you may meet women. No, maybe not your wife or even a future girlfriend……but you MUST start being around women in situations to get used to talking to them not in a work / job environment.

    Whatever hobby you have……master it. You don’t have a hobby? Get one. Collecting stamps, camping, gym, walking, bird watching……….repairing / restoring stuff (cars, furniture). You always wanted to learn to be a mechanic…..but went to college? Take a basic class then and start learning.
    Don’t let any other man tell you your hobby is unmasculine…..or not cool enough. Is it cool for you? Learn it. Grow it.

    At home, practice walking with shoulders back (my posture has always been decent but when I really started backpacking, getting good at it……man…I feel better and my height now is commanding). I’m 6’4″ and slender…..and proper posture no matter your height is a good thing if you are not the best looking or were not blessing with a nice face……….I know that well!

    Stay away from porn. Not because its un-christian or I am some sort of moral police…….it just isn’t good for you. Christian or not. Not because it degrades women (many women degrade themselves daily without the porn industry). No, you won’t die by watching it…..but it does kind of make you lazy about trying at least be aware of meeting a woman. With porn…..hey, it’s slick, hot and safe…..you kind of get lazy in not wanting to improve on a basic level and the women in porn……..most women out there DON’T look like this and it sets a standard that you should have a woman like this. Lighting, camera angles, makeup…..youth……it sets in the male brain that you can only and must get this kind of woman. The reality is most don’t look like this after a night of sick babies, a stressful week at work, and you and her trying to pay the bills and do the budget.

    As for reality…..never seen so many guys with a schlong where one stroke goes six blocks. Live in reality. Stay away from porn.

    Finally, you need to start speaking or improving this skill…..volunteer to take the podium to read Scripture on a Sunday. Read aloud at home.

    There is plenty to do, and yes…..you do have time to “meet cute” but it will be harder. That is a truth. I am sure you can get other info from here, Dalrock (watch the comments though….some of those men are really hateful) and even Deep Strenght (can’t believe I am saying that).

    Don’t get caught up on “steps” though….well I followed Dalrock, but DS says this and I need to reach this goal before that one, and have to, and have to and must do…….

    You will sound like an AA person…believe me, these folks get stuck in their program and steps……they really don’t improve on anything.

    Like

    • Jason, the funny thing is that I agree with much of your advice, and it’s many things I recommend (but coming from me to you it’s “this step that step” lol).

      I have no idea why you take some of my disagreement with your statements as an indicator that I hate you. That’s pretty far from the case. I don’t hate you, and your situation actually really sucks. The thing I don’t like is that you keep taking your anger out on those around you including me and the other commenters who wanted to help you. No one cares if you vent and we even encourage it most of the time because we don’t have a place in the real world to do that, but attacking others is a no no.

      Like

  23. lastmod says:

    Guys…..I am moving today, so I probably won’t be back on until sometime after the weekend. Moving back to Fresno. Gotta get the U-haul loaded, and ugh….drive five freaking hours. The cat is gonna hate the ride.

    If anyone here has a beef with anything I have said…..I will reply to you sometime early next week more than likely. 😉

    Liked by 1 person

  24. Scott says:

    Derek is right about the test drive argument. It is an excuse based on the augmentation of doubt. If you’re both fresh virgins, then you create your own sexual compatibility.

    But no fornication merit badge.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Jack says:

      “But no fornication merit badge.”

      I think what Scott means is that all choices, good and bad, have some benefits and some setbacks, or “costs of opportunity” – some carnal, some social, some spiritual. It’s just a question of whether it is taking you to where you need to be in life, and whether it serves God’s purposes for your life.
      As a worst case example of what I mean, if Roosh wasn’t a player for 20 years, then he probably wouldn’t have turned to Christ, and if he did, then it wouldn’t have had the impact that it has. Compare Roosh to Josh Harris, who was a central figure in the Purity Movement, but then later turned from the faith.

      Like

      • Sharkly says:

        … if Roosh wasn’t a player for 20 years, then he probably wouldn’t have turned to Christ …

        LOL And Jack questions my logic. Perhaps our logic is different.
        The apostle Paul persecuted and had Christians put to death. But God chose to save these men. Paul didn’t murder, and Roosh didn’t fornicate his way into the kingdom of heaven. Like Jonah, when God called him to go to Nineveh, he fled the opposite direction on a ship to Tarshish. Some folks run straight away from God before finding that they can’t escape from God. God’s Spirit brought them to repentance, not their ignorant rebellion. Some folks like to self-justify all their past mistakes as being what brought them to God, but that’s just self-justifying, not soundness of mind. God redeemed you in spite of your past sins, not for them.

        Like

      • Jack says:

        Sharkly, technically you are correct. But have you ever wondered why we have these archetypes? Why do these trajectories appear again and again in different men’s lives?

        Like

  25. Jack says:

    The key to avoiding fornication is not to put yourself in a situation where it might occur. However, it’s important to put yourself in places where you can interact with lots of women so that you can develop your social skills. So the trick is being around women but not in risky situations. The traditional way people have achieved this is through social gatherings, dinners, dances, community activities, etc. But in recent times, these types of gatherings have almost disappeared, and church functions are dysfunctional to this end. So you have to be imaginative in finding places to put yourself.

    Like

    • Sharkly says:

      I would say the key is to fear God and flee from evil, and to know thyself. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Different people may react very differently to the same temptation. Some of the things I read, I just can’t relate to because I’m different. I never once thought or worried about what I would say to a girl. I just say stuff. I never once worried about sex with my wife. I just assumed I’d use my physical abilities my mental abilities my willpower my perseverance and my sex drive to quickly get good at it. And I was dedicated to enjoying the training. I don’t know why, but I never ever imagined I wouldn’t be decent at it. I never ever worried that I’d mess up and have sex with a girl. How’s my dick going to wind up inside her by accident? I just won’t do that. But I can hold hands and kiss and tell her to just take my erection as a compliment. I can say “no” to people. But, I also stayed away from loose women and alcohol, and things that might compromise my resolve. flirting with women shouldn’t be stressful and anxiety inducing. Just imagine how lucky they are to be enjoying some of your attention and to get a chance to flirt back with a man who is the total package of what most women can only dream of. Then go tell ’em how lucky they are to get to try out their skill at hitting on a stud like yourself, and then just keep doubling down on the cockiness until they start laughing. Obviously not everybody can pull that off, but everybody should be able to at least try it, and if it doesn’t work for you, try it on some uglier chicks, until you find one that laughs at your jokes. Ah, what am I saying, just mope! /S
      To practice social skills, when you’re in the grocery store, don’t wander around to find what you want, find a hot woman who might be single and ask her if she knows where it is. Then if she helps you find it, thank her for helping you find what you wanted and say that you’re glad you found her, and then you can ask for her phone number, a date, or just what her name is, and then try to keep her talking with you if she doesn’t look like she wants to escape. Now if you really want to go full Jerk-boy and get the bonus point, and find out if she thinks you are hawt, after she finds the item for you pick it up look at it and say I think you’ve shown me exactly what I want, then slip it back on the shelf while grinning and giving her some side-eye and turn with a smirk eye her up then look at her eyes and say I want your number. She will likely start some comeback, but you can tease her by laughing and saying you were just playing with her, as you pull the item back off the shelf and put it in your cart. There’s plenty of interaction to be had, just wing it. FWIW I don’t recommend the Jerk-boy approach that’s just for your own entertainment.

      Like

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