Man up and Meet Cute, or muckrake and masturbate.  Either option is hopeless.

Readership: Men;


Scott’s post about the Meet Cute phenomenon, and a few follow ups which have examined this idea further, have dropped a figurative bombshell on the Σ Frame blog.

  1. Σ Frame (Scott): Probabilities (2020-2-24)
  2. Σ Frame (Scott): Opportunities (2020-2-26)
  3. Σ Frame: Trajectories (2020-02-28)
  4. Christianity and Masculinity: Meet Cutes – Are they common? (2020-3-13)
  5. Σ Frame: List of Female IOI’s (2020-03-30)
  6. Σ Frame: On the Significance and Value of the Meet Cute Experience (2020-4-3)
  7. Radix Fidem: Marriage: Path through the Shadows (2020-4-4)

From post (6), we found that there are three fundamental qualities that are absolutely necessary to make a marriage work over the long haul.

  1. Commitment
  2. Maturity
  3. Trusting in the Holy Spirit

But these are confounded respectively because of the following.

  1. Youthful foolishness and confusion, as well as the weaknesses of the flesh and the will to do right.
  2. Sexual libido peaks before emotional maturity occurs.
  3. Faith (and one’s sense of purpose) is weak before spiritual maturity can be attained.

The above conditions require a family and a community of believers offering constant guidance and instruction to young people in order to produce a stable marriage.  But this is a lost social art.  In addition, there are many influences present that set us up to fail.

Scott’s main point about the Meet Cute phenomena is that the woman’s level of sexual attraction is important to the long-term health of a marriage, and it has to be present from the outset, and it has to be maintained.

I agree with him on this point, and I think the real value of this insight is specifically for younger men who are faced with the challenge of choosing a suitable spouse, but who don’t have a Christian social support group to help them through the process.  They’re not going to wait for society to reform itself before they sow their oats.

It should be emphasized that having a Meet Cute experience does not discount the many other things that are necessary to build a good marriage, and it does take time and effort.  It’s just one thing that needs to be highlighted as important.

However, this information has proved to be very disheartening to many men, not only to single men who’ve never experienced a “Meet Cute”, but also to those men who have a less-than-satisfying marriage.

The Nu-Clear Bomb Explodes

Jason has emphasized that placing any importance on having a Meet Cute experience is nuclear bomb to many men’s hopes of having a fulfilling relationship.  His main point of contention (I think) can be summed up in this statement.

“The message he’s spreading IS basically hopelessness for those in marriages where maybe the attraction wasn’t that strong at first.  And he’s totally throwing out the reality that women have personal and spiritual agency to make choices to be easier to live with…  like his own wife finally chose to do, which sounds like it was a miracle.”

I am aware of this sense of hopelessness because of my own experiences.

I grew up in a home that was “emotionally dead” (according to my sister’s description), and my parents divorced while I was in college.  (Yes, it was my mother who filed the papers, which fits the RP stereotype.)  For many years, I subconsciously carried the notion that if I had my own wife in marriage, then I could make up for all the love I had missed out on in my childhood.  But this was a false hope.

Marriage and family is, or should be, the primary vehicle which God uses to fulfill our needs for love and belonging, especially for children.  And when this is absent, abnormal, or dysfunctional, we fail to experience the glory and presence of God.  We fail learn the truth about God and life, and so we suffer and fail in life.

In a heart-felt recognition of this truth, people (including myself when I was younger) tend to have a child-like, idealistic view of marriage as some monolithic entity that should just “be” a solution to all our needs and expectations for love and belonging.  But it is not the marriage or family itself that creates hope, it is the presence of God that is manifested in the home of a spiritually mature, well-paired couple.  But for those who never experienced the fullness of this, the default assumption is to think it is a spouse, or a marriage that is the missing piece.  (BTW, Scott has an upcoming post which describes his own experience with this.)

The current atomization of marriage in the west is working overtime to dispel this myth.

You see, a lot of our hopes for marriage are actually false hopes, and these false hopes need to be upset and revised before we can get down to the nuts and bolts of living out our lives.

The Demolition Derby

Derek has propped up our hope by consistently downplaying the importance of having a Meet Cute towards achieving a successful marriage.

Derek probably isn’t aware of this, but the popularity he has experienced as a potential husband, and the success he has achieved in marriage, along with his emanating viewpoints, were entirely due to the support of the social community of which he was a part, and were not so much based on his attributes as an individual man.  (I don’t intend to be an @$$ by pointing this out.)  He inadvertently confirmed this when he wrote,

“It’s becoming a too common criticism that if I had followed the advice on this blog, I wouldn’t have married.  This is a real problem.  I can’t recall ever receiving any of the IOIs in this list (maybe I forgot one or two?).  Despite all that, I somehow managed to get two women to want to marry me.”

Derek’s statement stands as a testament that in the past the grand majority of men were hugely dependent upon the social structure of their society to help them navigate through the process of assortative mating and finding a wife.  That kind of social entourage continues to survive in microcultures like the Amish or Mennonites, but within the wider society, this social structure is totally extinct, and so men are now hard pressed to compete with each other for the meager left-over mating opportunities.  The loss of culture is the thing that is truly hopeless, and not so much the “man up and Meet Cute” news as some suppose, because this too may soon slip into history.

One might think that Derek is encouraging false hope by maintaining that a man in the current western MMP can achieve a successful marriage without doing the “man up and Meet Cute” bit.  But if we recognize the value of his testimony within its proper context, we see that it’s not false at all – it’s just out of reach to the average man.

On this point, Derek wrote,

“As Jason has noted on a hundred occasions, the invisible 3/10 man isn’t going to be able to improve to the 9/10 that every woman notices when he enters the room, no matter how much they follow the “alpha / Game / Frame / social cues / the secret language of women playbook.”  It is not honest to blame men because women don’t find them attractive or tell them that all they have to do is change their physical appearance, etc.”

Let’s break this down further.  Consider the following truth statements.

  1. If you “man up and Meet Cute” then you can have a snickerdoodle marriage.
  2. Only those who can “man up and Meet Cute” have a ghost of a chance in ћә11 at marriage.

It is not honest to tell men (1) if that inspires false hope.  It’s more honest to openly discuss (2) as the current reality, especially if that destroys false hope.

Let the chips fall where they may.

So we come to the question, what makes any particular hope true for some men, but false for others?

Crushing the Great Divide

Jason wrote the following response (edited for clarity) to my own brief testimony of how I struggled to achieve an abundance mentality.

“Jack, you and I are just going to disagree.  I have lived Scott’s description of not meeting cute…  You say you agree and then tell us there is a way.”

Of course, my testimony is just one data point on a scatterplot.  Derek’s is another.  Scott’s is a third.  Jason’s a fourth, Deep Strength, Roosh, etc.  No man’s experience is identical to another’s.  It’s hard to write about this, because this issue is very complex and nuanced, and difficult to sort out.  I have to oversimplify it to some degree.  It’s too easy to talk past one another.

Jason continued,

“Knowing your place is another thing.  If you are indeed a low level guy, you are not going to become a top tier one, especially if you’re over the age of 35.  That’s lying to yourself.  It’s not healthy and it’s not living in reality.”

Yes, one thing is for sure, we can’t simply tell men to follow an order of procedure and expect every man to get the same results.  Some men need to give up the same hopes that other men need to cling to as if their souls depended on it.

“No.  I learned my limits.  I knew what I was good at or not.  You are doing a disservice to older single men by giving them false hope.  That causes the anger.  The bile.

You wonder why MGTOW and various movements have grown.  You’re part of this.”

Yes, unfulfilled desires are a B!@tch.  But ultimately, I believe God’s purpose in all of this is for us to learn how to depend on Christ alone.  You can’t really get to this state just from praying and studying the Bible.  I suppose there are a few who have done it this way, but for most, you have to do the hard messy work of overcoming.

What is involved with the task of revising our hope?

The overarching goal for us as Christian men is to incorporate the peace and presence of God into our lives.  How this might be done for any particular man is unique to the individual.

  1. For many single men, this might include taking the Black Pill and facing the unpleasant fact that marriage is not a necessary nor realistic option.
  2. For higher SMV single men, this might include the relatively more difficult process of coming to terms with themselves, and working through their opportunities to find out exactly what they might be capable of achieving. The thing that makes this path difficult is that during the time it takes for this to happen, the subjective legitimacy of one’s hope is held in limbo.
  3. For married men, this would take the form of letting go of certain expectations and seeing our spouse for who they really are, and doing the hard work of washing them clean and building them up accordingly.

As for me, I have gone through several states of hopelessness as I passed through different stages of life.  Recently, I have learned to focus more on fulfilling my role as a husband and serving my wife’s needs.  This actually helps my wife do more of the same, and our relationship has slowly improved over time.


About Jack

Jack is a world traveling artist, skilled in trading ideas and information, none of which are considered too holy, too nerdy, nor too profane to hijack and twist into useful fashion. Sigma Frame Mindsets and methods for building and maintaining a masculine Frame
This entry was posted in Collective Strength, Discerning Lies and Deception, Discernment, Wisdom, Enduring Suffering, Faith Community, Introspection, Maturity, Personal Growth and Development, Models of Failure, Organization and Structure, Purpose, Self-Concept, Strategy and tagged , , . Bookmark the permalink.

17 Responses to Hopelessness

  1. Ed Hurst says:

    I still say we should develop an expectation of building an alternative society, rather than vain attempts at dominating the mainstream that has made such a hash of marriage (and everything else). I’m convinced the notion of creating a Christianized nation is totally wrong and flatly impossible. The normative vision from the New Testament is a parallel society within a faithless world. Following Jesus cannot be made into a set of rules and policies that changes human politics and “saves” the world. Any attempt at creating a Christian government simply perverts the message.

    Liked by 3 people

    • Jack says:

      @ Ed,
      Yes, I agree. When I speak of social community here, I assume that this entourage has to be small, a few hundred people at most. If you have any more than that, then it’s impossible for anyone to know the others on a personal basis, and then the accountability becomes too diffuse to carry any weight on the individual.


  2. lastmod says:

    “For many single men, this might include taking the Black Pill and facing the unpleasant fact that marriage is not a necessary nor realistic option”

    I don’t like the term ‘black pill’ because it is always assumed to be defeatist even though at times, it may be the “only” decision for the circumstances.

    Black Pill isn’t always “giving up” it usually is an acceptance of a cold reality that one really has no other choice but to take……..any other choice will cause more frustration, more dead ends and more anger.

    Do I think people should default to this as the first option in their lives? No. Do I think or believe ‘black pill’ is “go and kill yourself”? Again, no. Is this loose term ‘black pill’ a solution to a problem…….again, no. Though it can “end” the problem or challenge a person has been dealing with by just “putting it to rest” and “getting on”

    Christians live in a very interesting world. Anything good by and for them was from “god” and anything bad was because of their own “free will” and bad choices. Being born ugly, or handicapped, or with Autism, or other strikes……sent to have your legs blown off to defend national interests like oil, banks, a supposed ‘chosen people’ by christians is seen as a gift (try living it…most of you would break real quick…..I don’t care how many ‘meet cutes’ or how many masculine pursuits you have).

    There comes a point in the mating and dating game……culture and its trappings aside……you have it or you don’t.

    In the post-war / cold war era (1945-1989) it seemed actually seemed to be a brief exception. Most men and women could find or have someone to marry. The pent up consumption, the smashed world economy (except for the USA for the most part), the massive proliferation of a rising standard of living……even with the poor……..and some sort of brief balance. The impact of the Pill not felt until the 1970’s. Low national debt, low cost of living, plenty of work….and still the “hope” that a man could do better than his father.

    The later part of this era when the cold war was indeed waning…..the MAD / dante with the Soviet Union, and other problems raising its head from the massive wealth generated in the earlier part of the era……

    We seem to have been reverting more towards a very strange hybred of Darwin, feminism, the teachings of a lukewarm faith, bad behavior rewarded inside this faith, and………..a ‘black pill’ rising out of all this.

    Black Pill in this sense didn’t come from feminism. Nor did it come from our “godless culture”

    It came directly out of the PUA / Game / Frame thing…….men seeing first hand, a lot of them that they were not going to be allowed to “play” in this new(er) dating and mating market.

    And many of you are “shocked” and “surprised” by this.


  3. ramman3000 says:

    “He inadvertently confirmed this…”

    No, not exactly. I think you read more into what I said than what I actually said.

    When I left high school, I left my ethnic group and went to a secular college in a different state. It was there that I met a nominal Catholic, fell in love, and fell just short of walking down the aisle. This was a somewhat typical ‘blue-pill’ college relationship (disconnected from my upbringing). Moreover, my wife did not grow up Anabaptist and she went to college. Of the two of us, I was immersed in the culture while she was less so.

    I brought that example up because, despite not receiving IOIs, I still managed to find marriage opportunities. I found prospects both within and without my ethnic group. Consequently, I don’t completely agree with this:

    “it’s just out of reach to the average man.”

    While I consider my upbringing to be essential to my marital success (so far), I had some measure of marriage marketplace and other female relationship success among the general church population (Presbyterian, Catholic, Baptist). In other words, there exists relationship strategies for an average man. That’s a weak claim, sure, and it is based on a single data point, but at least it is something.


  4. Scott says:

    The “meet cute” is, of course, a time and culture bound phenomenon that is fading from view, just like all others. It is not clear exactly what it is being replaced by either. Some say the internet, but that only describes half the picture.

    If context can be described as ever increasing in size and scope concentric circles (as you move away from the thing itself), what was the context of the this thing called “meet cute?”

    First, for Christians (and “Americans”) it was arguably a fem-centric, very important part of what the blogger Dalrock used to refer as her sacred path marriage.

    Recall, the preferred female mating strategy is serial monogamy. In context, “meet cute” legitimizes the sexual relationship (that every one knows is happening–even “Christians”) that develops through some number of boyfriends who are being run through a gauntlet of games and comparisons on the way to her hand in marriage. I’ll try to weave this into why it “worked” for me here if I remember but the short version is, I am a rare male who also prefers serial monogamy. I have tried plate spinning (the preferred male strategy) and hated it.

    Further, the meet cute has the added bonus of scratching the itch (however mathematically absurd) of the “soul mate” idea. Through this process, you can convince yourself that God has placed this person in your path who was “meant” to be happily every after. All the other meet cutes leading up to that were user error. Just a bump in the road leading to the “real” one.

    In another culture, in another time, (say, pretty much every culture the various books of the Bible were written in) the meet cute would be a bizarre perversion of how one obtains a spouse. That has been discussed ad nauseum in every corner of the reaction-o-sphere. Hell, I took part in those discussion to the greatest extent possible with my “The Courtship Pledge” website.

    But it appears that for now, that ship has sailed, and the debate is now one of arguing just how far outside the Overton window one is willing to travel to find a wife. Moving to Russia, or whatever the case may be–these times are as good as any to try that stuff because its almost like there is no Overton window. “Social norms” are joke today–which by the way makes my job as a psychologist very difficult, since psychopathology is defined (at least in part) as behavior that is decidedly outside those objective norms.

    Getting back the idea of being more suited for this particular trajectory (for me, precisely). I absolutely love the feeling of “falling in love.” Those first few weeks to months in a new relationship are like heaven to me. And I have discussed this openly, even with my wife, so its not a secret. If I was NOT married, I would just do the serial monogamy thing until I died. I could do this, because IOIs are a pretty regular part of my life. Get a new girlfriend every 3 months to 2 years, which is about the longest the bliss ever seems to last. That way I could do the falling in love thing over and over again and then die. But, I have a family and that path would fail to produce the permanence I wanted.

    So, I work very hard at keeping that euphoria going with Mychael because I am addicted to it. In Rollos rubric, it makes me the powerless one in the relationship because I “need” it more. It also makes me hopelessly “beta” or whatever. Don’t care. Men who read my stuff can assess my status on that scale all they want. Assess whether or not my marriage, my life, my whatever have been successful.

    Liked by 2 people

  5. lastmod says:

    “First, for Christians (and “Americans”) it was arguably a fem-centric, very important part of what the blogger Dalrock used to refer as her sacred path marriage”

    I agree……but “her sacred path to marriage” that men actively participated in despite everyone claiming in the sphere “they have game/ frame / masculinity / don’t do anything a female wants or likes”

    I mentioned this back in 2014? maybe 2015 on Dalrock and was “pounced upon” for my insolence. How dare I mention or say that “women do the choosing”

    I think you musing on this Scott are excellent….though we may disagree in part here and there of “what is next” or “what now?”

    But I do hope in these matters and on this issue…..you would consider my input not being black pill, or defeatest…but rational in some of these “meet cute” matters for a man it doesn’t happen to who “wants” this.


    • Jack says:

      When Dalrock wrote “her sacred path to marriage” it was a loaded phrase meaning something more to the tune of “her preconceived notion of what the sacred path to marriage should be”

      “How dare I mention or say that “women do the choosing”.”

      If we be honest, this much has always been clear. “If she likes’ya, then you’ve gotta chance!” is the way I’ve heard it described to me as a teenager. Obviously fem-centric, and feeelz-centric, so it is surprising to me how well the Meet Cute method worked out for those that did it.
      But if you pointed this out in 2014, then it would have seemed like you were championing the old ways, not looking to break new RP ground.


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  7. lastmod says:

    DS again breaking our marriage problem into a math equation. He cannot understand bc he is not in the bottom 20%. By the government and AMA i am overweight. 161 lbs and 6’3″

    “Just dont be fat, obese, picky…easy to find a wife”

    Next week we’ll get another post about veting properly in x number of days / weeks and how “no woman is worth marrying today”

    Or a post about men being blue pilled and pedestalizing women. “Just be masculine and non obese, wife materoal women will be a knocking”

    That chart doesnt explain eatly death. Nor includes women who “never married but lived with a guy or guys there adult life”

    He assumes all the women were virgins at the wedding and never had sex before settling for mr nlue pill….who obviously fidnt vett properly.

    Why did he publish a book if this is so damned “easy” to get married. Why does he then waste so much time on duscussing this.

    Because he effing knows the stats are wrong or charted / graphed to show how “actually divorce is low and just dont be a beta mouth breather…and dont be picky. Work out…lead a bible study and carry a guitar case around”


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