A blinding obsession

…that erodes mens’ senses of discernment.

Readership: Men
Theme: Overcoming Obstacles
Length: 1,600 words
Reading Time: 5.5 minutes

The Effects of Sin on Faith

Over the past century, men have slowly drifted away from the more traditional forms and expressions of masculinity and have indulged themselves in an obsession with sex. (BTW, I think the same could be said for women too, along the lines of prioritizing hypergamy, YOLO, branch swinging, Marriage 2.0, etc.)

This obsession takes one of two general forms, each having many variants of expression.

  1. The S1ut Predator — Tends to be higher SMV men who can actually get laid without doing very much.
  2. The P0rn Glutton — Tends to be lower SMV men, or higher SMV men who would otherwise be getting laid if not for their religious convictions against extramarital sex.

Much has already been written about the heinous cultural environment and the immutable biological indices which reinforce these conditions. But the end result is that either way, and no matter where a man falls in the SMV hierarchy, there is this ubiquitous obsession with sex.

Few men can escape this obsession, especially younger men.

Image from From Dusk Till Dawn (1996).

This, I believe, lies at the root of modern western men’s most grievous fault.

I say this for two attendant reasons.

  1. These sex colored glasses induce a gynocentric Blue Pill shift in everything that comes before a man’s thoughts and senses.
  2. It is very rare, if not impossible, for a person to have an obsession with love, romance, and sex, and also have a well-developed sense of discernment. (King Solomon was one of those rare exceptions, by the grace of God.)

Therefore, Men’s obsession with idealistic love, sex, and romance has a blinding effect.

This has a major impact on intersexual relationships and marriage, especially through the various decisions made throughout the dating/mating/courtship phase. Without discernment and faith to guide people to the right sort of person, in the right way, at the right time, people will naturally follow what they’ve learned through the examples they’ve been most impressed by, be it their parents, peers, pop stars, or p0rn stars.

The Obsession is Limbic

Recently, Adam Piggott had an advertent post that addressed this condition, Too thirsty for the chicks (2022-3-30). He quoted this comment from deti.

“The love of a woman is one of the sweetest, most sublime experiences a man can know. It is integral, if not essential, to the human condition. Men and women are intended to be together. We are not intended to be isolated or alone. We are intended to be fruitful and multiply; and that requires social and sexual intercourse.”

Following this, Adam made deti out to be a p_ssy pedestalizer! At first reading, I laughed because of the sheer incongruency. I mean, for the past decade or so, deti has been one of the loudest voices in the Manosphere warning men of the dangers of pedestalization. But after I sat on it for a while, I realized that even the most aware men among us are prone to falling into this trap.

In fact, it’s ingrained in our limbic hardware.

At a more basic level, this “sublime experience” that deti speaks of is a subjective description of how sex bonds men to their wives — the dopamine, norepinephrine, oxytocin, and all the psychological idealization that goes with that. It leads to contentment, sanctification, and stability in marriage. This is a good thing, because without it, many wives and marriages would be insufferable.

Speaking for myself, I have noticed that if the sex with my wife is frequent and satisfying, then I can handle any kind of bad attitude or $h!t test from her. But if the sex is shameful, starfishy, or non-existent for weeks on end, then I can’t even tolerate seeing her around. Red Pill Apostle has stated similar sentiments, and I think it’s true for most men.

The problem with this bonding, as we all know, is when men get too comfortable around a woman (or women in general). They let down their guard, the sexual tension drops, the emotional boundaries get blurry, they lose frame, and then the natural bonding easily disintegrates into pedestalization.

Unmarried men are especially susceptible to pedestalization because (1) younger men’s stronger libido transforms the obsession with sex into a constant drumbeat that is practically irresistible, (2) limbic bonding occurs with illicit sex or p0rn (instead of a wife), and (3) they don’t have to live with the constant daily reminders of how much of a headache a woman can be, which tends to put everything into perspective. Taken together, this ultimately results in fantastical idealization (i.e. idolatry) and confusion about the value and purpose of the woman and her proper place and role in his life. Or as deti put it, “P_ssy makes men stupid!”

Real No Fap Celibacy

As I mentioned above, one major spiritual effect of sin and continually making poor decisions is a loss of discernment and faith. Celibacy and marriage are the Biblically prescribed ways to avoid the Blinding Obsession.

Adam wrote another post that describes the importance of exercising agency to embrace celibacy.

“Celibacy absolutely must be viewed as a positive Christian choice because by doing as such we are embracing God’s path for us in a positive manner. This is critically important because it means that as a man you have individual power and autonomy over your actions and choices.”

Adam Piggott: Voluntarily Celibate (2022-3-26)

Adam emphasized that celibacy must necessarily be of the no fapping sort. When I was younger, I didn’t believe jerking off was a sin. No one told me it was, and the Bible doesn’t really mention it specifically.* But looking back now, I can see that the last paragraph of the previous section applied to me. So judging by the overall effects of masturbation, now I have the opinion that it is a sin, or at the very least, a very bad habit that messes up the limbic programming and by extension, one’s psychology regarding intersexual relations.

You see, solo sex forms a self-reinforcing cycle, or a “stronghold” as some Christian authors have called it. Psychoanalysts call it an emotional dependence on auto-eroticism. Psychologists simply call it an addiction.

Adam also emphasized the importance of exercising autonomy and not getting drawn into the stronghold of lust, p0rn, and squirting. The implicit challenge of staying free or breaking out of this stronghold is this — embracing fap free celibacy is not a real option unless a man first takes off the sex colored blueshift lenses. Abandoning the sex lens is the crucial first step, because without doing so, a man can’t even get the vision of no-fap celibacy as being an actionable option. Adam mentioned that it took him a few months to get free from this stronghold, and I’d say that’s pretty fast. It took me a couple years to get free from wanking, and several more to escape the habit of lust. (Some strategies for dealing with this are listed in the Conclusions below.)

Adam ends this post with a critically pertinent injunctive that bears repeating.

“So take courage from these words and embrace the path that God has chosen for you, with grace and dignity and good humor. Do not overburden yourself with red pill rules while you jump through self-inflicted hoops to attract a mate or keep the one that you’re in danger of losing. Rather, get your own house in order. Focus on His rules and laws and how you can live them as a worthy servant of our Lord. If that means being celibate, really celibate, then so be it. If we are going to be worthy of Him then we need to be made of stern stuff.”

Adam Piggott: Voluntarily Celibate (2022-3-26)

* I thought the oft cited story of Onan in Genesis 38:9 didn’t apply, because he was not masturbating, he was having sex with his brother’s wife (which seemed odd in itself). Looking back, I see mine was a legalistic approach based on Purity Culture‘s views on Pseudo-Sex and Technical-Virginity (2020-5-11).

Conclusions

Going off of the 3 conditions listed in the last paragraph of The Obsession is Limbic, here are things that can help a man stay free from the blinding obsession.

  • Reduce libido (I’m not sure if this is possible?)
  • Abstain from illicit sex and avoid p0rn and masturbation.
  • Spend time with real women and read Red Pill literature to get a realistic mental concept of women. (Some men might want to avoid super hot women if this stokes their libido and incites lust.)
  • Also, stay focused on your own mission in life and pursue Flow, which tends to displace thoughts about women in general.

On that last point, and in closing, I’ll quote the final passage in the aforementioned post from Adam.

“Young men and boys today would do well to develop and cultivate their bonds of friendship through shared endeavors. As men we are made up of our experiences, our learned skills and our friendships; the pecking order where we stand with other men. Focus on and enjoy those, without the stress of worrying about whether the girls will like you or not. And funnily enough, the girls always go for the guys who don’t need them.”

Adam Piggott: Too thirsty for the chicks (2022-3-30)

About Jack

Jack is a world traveling artist, skilled in trading ideas and information, none of which are considered too holy, too nerdy, nor too profane to hijack and twist into useful fashion. Sigma Frame Mindsets and methods for building and maintaining a masculine Frame
This entry was posted in Adultery and Fornication, Agency, Boundaries, Conserving Power, Decision Making, Desire, Discernment, Wisdom, Discipline, Enduring Suffering, Fantasy and Illusion, Fundamental Frame, Holding Frame, Intersexual Dynamics, Introspection, Legalism, Masturbation, Maturity, Personal Growth and Development, Models of Failure, Models of Success, Moral Agency, Overcoming Addictions, Personal Domain, Personal Presentation, Psychology, Purity Culture, Purpose, Relationships, Sanctification & Defilement, Self-Concept, Self-Control, The Power of God. Bookmark the permalink.

94 Responses to A blinding obsession

  1. I have a friend, who is nearly 40, who is stuck in a tar pit of sorts.

    Little to no social life coupled with a mental auto rejection function brought on by porn. He also had personal problems that exacerbate his issues. (Terrible marriage examples, sick family members, physical issues, poor communicator…)

    I hate to see him both to set an unrealistic example in his head and to make him out to be an auto reject.

    We had met eloquent and attractive women when we were out. He would create reasons to “de select” them. The women were real. Quirky, fun, attractive. Smart. Faults that an enlightened man would find a “spicy of life” or even fun.

    He has it in his mind that there is some bolt-on-titted, gamer porn star around every corner. It is actually bizarre. He tried his hand at dating apps. With low sights in hand, he wasn’t “enough” to keep the few bites around. (One was a busy single mom, another was a desperate single mom diminishing looks.)

    I do know that he struggles with self image issues, but if he isn’t going to get professional help, it doesn’t look good.

    Even many single moms want a participating partner.

    Liked by 2 people

    • india_kilo_romeo says:

      Matt, responding here, as it builds on my solo comment just now.

      We all — self included — have afflictions, whether we be blind to them, know of them, know them exactly, know how to fix them — but for whatever reason, lack the ability to take action and resolve them. But until they reach a point they are ready to change, they are impervious to help.

      As a brief example, I have a close relative with children working a minimum wage, dead end job, when his credentialing would put him in a solid 95-99th percentile earning position. He was beat down, and the expectations — external and internal — placed on himself kept him in that state. It took him reaching a final point of desperation, for the words his close circle had been gently encouraging to reach him, to finally take action. More specifically: it took 7 years.

      Until a person is ready to change, the best one can do is be a firm advocate for the path necessary. But until the problem is acknowledged, it is utterly pointless to push the point.

      Some people are fast adapters, some take years (like my relative), some never reach the point where they feel the need (‘urgency’) to change.

      Liked by 3 people

    • Jack says:

      Mogadishu Matt,
      Thank you for sharing this story. Your description of your friend’s low self-image and social/mental auto rejection confirms the detrimental effects of p0rn-based idolatry. I’ve long suspected that p0rn affects mens sociosexual psychology, but clinical testimonies about this are scant. I find it remarkable that you or your friend were able to specifically identify p0rn as the cause.

      Liked by 1 person

  2. india_kilo_romeo says:

    “Following this, Adam made deti out to be a p_ssy pedestalizer! At first reading, I laughed because of the sheer incongruency. I mean, for the past decade or so, deti has been one of the loudest voices in the Manosphere warning men of the dangers of pedestalization. But after I sat on it for a while, I realized that even the most aware men among us are prone to falling into this trap.”

    Onya, Jack, for the maturity of introspection and the transparency of publicly recognizing a previous blindspot.

    I commented only once at Dalrock’s and immediately recognized there was a hidden undercurrent of DODO syndrome, both in his audience and the host himself. I came here some time after and have commented very infrequently, because the same undercurrent existed.

    When the conversation shifts from ‘what the problem is’ to ‘how to fix the problem’ but even moreso still ‘how can I be a solution (even at personal cost) to the problem’, then it becomes interesting.

    Everything else is mental masturbation. It’s just another henhouse, however it might be dressed.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Jack says:

      @IKR,

      “Onya, Jack, for the maturity of introspection and the transparency of publicly recognizing a previous blindspot.”

      Thanks~! I hope readers will find a lot of honest introspection here, but it doesn’t always produce pleasant nor easy reading. It also goes hand in hand with receiving more criticism, which makes it all the more difficult.

      Like

      • india_kilo_romeo says:

        “…it doesn’t always produce pleasant nor easy reading. It also goes hand in hand with receiving more criticism, which makes it all the more difficult.”

        I am aware. It is enough to have a long-held paradigm shattered and the mental exercise of processing subsequent beliefs, without having people ‘kick one while they are down’.

        If you’ll note, I offered additional insight, as the timing was ripe, without dogpiling.

        Liked by 1 person

    • info says:

      “I commented only once at Dalrock’s and immediately recognized there was a hidden undercurrent of DODO syndrome, both in his audience and the host himself. I came here some time after and have commented very infrequently, because the same undercurrent existed.”

      At least if it’s beyond their own personal power. I would tell the readers to pray.

      If the problem is legal. Then its behooves some to enter the Judiciary. Cancel the Duluth Model of Domestic Violence and No-Fault Divorce. And reorient marriage laws to how actually domestic violence works and its resolution:

      And reinstitute Fault Divorce.

      Like

  3. “Reduce libido (I’m not sure if this is possible?)”

    I agree that it isn’t possible, but I think you can avoid increasing libido by avoiding p0rn and a lot of other entertainment choices.

    “Also, stay focused on your own mission in life . . .”

    Amen to that! I am not familiar with Flow, but I came up with a model in the 90s that I’ve used with great success. I call it “Manage Your Mission,” where I set clear priorities and goals for each of these 7 Fs: Faith, Family, Fitness, Friends, Field (occupation), Fun (entertainment), and Finances. I have found that everything important in life fits in one of those. Faith is always the foundation, and it informs the other Fs. Clear priorities keep things in balance. For example, I’ve been blessed with a great career, but I saw early on what being a workaholic did to many people. So while working hard to succeed, I made it a point never to sacrifice my family or my fitness. Sure, there are countless things I’d do or say differently if I had the chance, but as an overall life model, I regret nothing. I’ve used it as a filter for so long that now I just do it reflexively. I never forgot my overall mission. Some things were out of my control (e.g., getting cancer three times), but I actively managed what I could and didn’t leave it to chance. It is all by the grace of Jesus, but it has helped me be successful in every area.

    Liked by 2 people

  4. feeriker says:

    “The love of a woman is one of the sweetest, most sublime experiences a man can know. It is integral, if not essential, to the human condition. Men and women are intended to be together. We are not intended to be isolated or alone. We are intended to be fruitful and multiply; and that requires social and sexual intercourse.”

    What Adam deti is stating here (i.e., the obvious) is that this “obsession” is biologically hardwired within us. The problem we face in our current age is that the sociological forces that both channeled this obsession into productive (i.e., stable family-forming) activity and also kept it managable are gone, long gone, if we look at recent history. This leaves the potentially (self-)destructive forces of this power unchecked and unchanneled, hence weaponization of it that is wreaking so much destrucion, much of which will be irreversible.

    Liked by 3 people

    • redpillboomer says:

      “What Adam deti is stating here (i.e., the obvious) is that this “obsession” is biologically hardwired within us. The problem we face in our current age is that the sociological forces that both channeled this obsession into productive (i.e., stable family-forming) activity and also kept it manageable are gone, long gone, if we look at recent history.”

      Bingo. In dealing with many men on the various men’s teams I’ve been a part of over the last five years, this “obsession” is alive and well, irregardless of the age of the man, i.e. twenty somethings to the sixty somethings. Age doesn’t seem to matter. It’s been astounding to see how deep the ‘blue pill’ conditioning in many men runs, even in the older men who have been burned by it in the past, i.e. multiple divorces, divorce raped, etc. The thing that makes it so dangerous these days for men roaming around our culture as ‘blue pill minded men’ is exactly what you said: “The problem we face in our current age is that the sociological forces that both channeled this obsession into productive (i.e., stable family-forming) activity and also kept it manageable are gone, long gone, if we look at recent history.”

      Modern day men may know this intellectually, or have awareness of it in varying degrees, from clueless to “they d@mn well know it”, yet I can’t tell you how many men just plow ahead with their obsession with women like it’s freakin’ 1955 or something. I’ve shuddered many times as I’ve listened to their latest gynocentric obsession/pursuit and want to scream, “Noooooo!!! Don’t go at it that way! You’re going to end up with your head handed to you on a platter yet once again!” Sadly, many just plow straight ahead with what seems to be a mindset of, “It will be different this time.” The male need for female attention and validation in many men runs very, very deep, even for some men well into their sixties!

      Liked by 2 people

      • feeriker says:

        “Modern day men may know this intellectually, or have awareness of it in varying degrees, from clueless to “they d@mn well know it”, yet I can’t tell you how many men just plow ahead with their obsession with women like it’s freakin’ 1955 or something.”

        “The male need for female attention and validation in many men runs very, very deep, even for some men well into their sixties!”

        They might know it, even if only viscerally. But even for those who are well and consciously aware of it, many ask themselves, “What can I do to change anything? The answer is ‘nothing at all,’ so I’m going to satisfy my need for both female companionship and validation by approaching it in the only way I know how.”

        Sadly, while most manosphere advice is both correct and well-intentioned, the fact is that facing the truth while being aware of the dangers and drawbacks of the blue pill approach doesn’t offer much advice, if any at all, about how to compensate for the danger while still having a chance at getting what you want without signing your own death warrant That’s probably because there really is none, but most men either can’t or won’t process that fact. Again, it runs counter to their biological and psychological hardwiring.

        Like

  5. caterpillar345 says:

    Frank personal observations incoming:

    I found, to my great surprise, that when I abstained from p0rn and fapping for an extended period of time (2 weeks to a couple months or more) that my libido did indeed drop off. So I suspect that what I imagined as libido is simply habit and the pleasure-reward system seeking for another “hit”. Logically, I don’t see how it would be different in marriage but at least there is a productive use for it and a real woman involved.

    Very subjectively, I’ve also found that my noetic sense seems heightened when abstaining as described. At some point I realized that even one return to viewing p0rn accompanied by jerking off meant my noetic senses were blunted by the next day. I didn’t want to think about God, spirituality, or long-game thinking. OTOH, infrequent jerkin’ of the gherkin (without p0rn) does NOT seem to have the same effect.

    I recently moved to a new city in the PNW when the project I was working on finished. I love outdoor activities, but for the first time in my life (in my mid-20’s), I have a group of 3 other solid men to regularly go do things with. These guys are all men’s men — no video games and anime to be found! We blocked out one afternoon a week for just the 4 of us (no women allowed!), which is typically mountain biking and usually facilitates conversation about things going on in life. Three of us go to a rock climbing gym 2 mornings a week at 6 AM. Sundays are always some longer activity with a larger group of friends. I’ve found, (likely in a surprise to no one), that it is infinitely easier to abstain from BOTH p0rn and spanking the monkey with all this extra-curricular physical activity and brotherhood that I’ve found in the last couple months.

    In my teens/early 20’s, I was so “afraid” of sinning by fornicating that it seemed the only outlet for my sexual desire was these two vices. It seemed like the lesser of two evils, so to speak. In reality, it just meant I stayed away from opportunities to interact with women, didn’t develop myself socially, and developed a sense of pride in the fact that I wasn’t fornicating and had better things to do (i.e. school, career) which probably just made me come across as an @sshole. I didn’t have masculine guidance to help me understand the importance of building my body/masculinity or a “band of brothers” to develop social capital with. So here I am finally figuring it out (with lots of help from sites like this). Hopefully better later than never.

    I think where I’ve landed is that although I can’t find a specific Biblical prohibition against either vice (best I could come up with is Prov 5:18-19), it isn’t helpful. It seems to me, in a strange way, that it might actually be “better” (though not encouraged) to sin by fornicating with a real woman than to dissipate myself online and by myself. (I think Jack and Deti have alluded to this in the past.)

    Liked by 2 people

    • jorgen says:

      “At some point I realized that even one return to viewing porn accompanied by jerking off meant my noetic senses were blunted by the next day.”

      This is true. But the more zinc in your diet, the faster you recover.

      Jerking + not enough zinc = longterm depression = jerking more to try and feel happy = losing more zinc and it being harder to catch up = jerking off even more to try and feel happy = whole thing over again.

      If you do screw up and jerk one day, take a zinc supplement that night so it will only take 1 day to recover rather than 3 or 4.

      Like

    • Sharkly says:

      “It seems to me, in a strange way, that it might actually be “better” (though not encouraged) to sin by fornicating with a real woman than to dissipate myself online and by myself (I think Jack and Deti have alluded to this in the past).”

      That is the soul-damning heresy that the scripturally-baseless Catholic doctrine of “No-Fap” so often leads people into.

      1 Corinthians 6:9 (NASB1995)
      Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

      Jack wrote:

      “When I was younger, I didn’t believe jerking off was a sin. No one told me it was, and the Bible doesn’t really mention it specifically.”

      Maybe the Bible doesn’t mention it because God’s not very concerned about it.

      So when you have a wet-dream, is that presumed to be God jerking you off (which then magically makes it holy), or do you go to hell if you wake up with a smile on your face, instead of mortified that you might be struck dead for an Onan-esque “wasting” of your seed? LOL!

      Although some might try to say that’s being sacrilegious, I, on the other hand, maintain that advocating damnable fornication instead of biblically-unmentioned masturbation, is satanic false teaching.

      Onan was defrauding his levirate-second-wife of children, out of hard-hearted selfishness. He was struck dead for his defrauding his brother out of family land allotted for his offspring in perpetuity, in order to seize his brother’s patriarchal inheritance for his own children, while also preventing his brother’s wife from marrying anybody else by f***ing her and thereby taking her in levirate marriage. That’s pretty low! And it was a great evil in the sight of God.

      Don’t get me wrong, I’m not advocating for porn, nor have I ever linked to it from my site. LOL at ya fools.

      Ecclesiastes 7:16 (ESV)
      Be not overly righteous, and do not make yourself too wise. Why should you destroy yourself?

      For those who don’t understand that verse, it is describing this very twisted situation where you try to be so righteous that you avoid things like masturbation which are not actually condemned by God, and then to accomplish your self-concocted sanctity you contemplate destroying your eternal inheritance by fornicating in order to avoid potentially masturbating, just because masturbation has been given a dirty connotation by centuries of the influence of the corrupted Church of Rome.

      Matthew 23:24 NIV)
      You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

      “Don’t fap! The pope says you’ll go blind!” LOL! Can you see the truth yet, or who is staggering about blindly? Swaying from advocating fornication and posting porn links one day to then saying even fapping is evil the next. LOL!

      I wouldn’t want to “stumble” anyone, but stick to what the Bible actually says, if you can without violating your own conscience, but don’t let anybody create new sins for you. There are enough sins already, if you’re not “overly righteous”. LOL!

      Liked by 4 people

      • Jamesthe1st says:

        You should study Catholicism better before you betray your ignorance about it. The Catholic teaching on sexuality is not at all Gnostic. If you read someone like Aquinas who has a much fuller development of anthropology and metaphysics than Augustine, you see him say that the sexual passion is good because God made it. The evil arises only from misuse, which is what every sin is, the misuse of something good. All the passions are good, the problem we have being the sons of Adam is that we have inherited original sin and the consequent concupiscence where the passions do not want to obey reason. The virtuous and holy man is through God’s grace has his passions properly under reason. The vicious and unholy man indulges his passions and ultimately is enslaved to the passion.

        The Catholic Church does not teach that every sexual act between man and wife must be procreative, rather it teaches that each one must be open to life without intentional unnatural blockages.

        As for ascetical practices, these are done because of concupiscence. Through God’s grace, the body must be disciplined to bring the passions back into alignment with reason. Mortifying the flesh is reason telling the flesh, “not today, I am control of what I do, not you.” These practices are supposed to be private, to tell others about your acts of penance is pride.

        The Catholic Church teaches that all the passions are good, that is why we have great festivals on feast days. There are times to celebrate, but also times to fast because the “spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.” The Catholic Church and Christ views the marital relationship so highly that it is in fact a sacrament that gives grace. So in the Catholic understanding, God gives the married couple grace through living out their vows, so that even marital sex properly done is holy. This is as opposed to Gnosticism as you can get. St Thomas Aquinas in fact was a Dominican friar of which order was founded to preach against the errors of the Cathars who were running around saying marriage is evil.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Sharkly says:

        As I still see it Augustine and others incorporated the gnostic sensibilities of their day against sex into the church of Rome. if Aquinas came along later and left those gnostic practices intact while putting a different (less gnostic) spin on their defense, that doesn’t counter my point that men like Augustine incorporated their gnostic leanings into church doctrine. Many other Bible based church denominations are not as anti-sex as the church of Rome. And don’t look now, but Pachamama may soon inform Woke-Pope Francis that older married priests are OK due to “pastoral necessity”, compromising the Gnosticism based rule of an entirely celibate priesthood.

        Yes, I should have said “as potentially procreative as possible” instead of just “procreative”, but I figured folks would already know that always conceiving a baby isn’t a guarantee.

        Like

    • Jack says:

      A little more “foolishness” from ol’ Jack…

      Caterpillar345 wrote,

      “I found, to my great surprise, that when I abstained from p0rn and fapping for an extended period of time (2 weeks to a couple months or more) that my libido did indeed drop off.”

      Sharkly wrote,

      “..the scripturally-baseless Catholic doctrine of “No-Fap” so often leads people into [soul-damning heresy].”

      So according to Sharkly, the “No Fap Doctrine” leads one into fornication (or justifying fornication), but Caterpillar stated that joying himself less reduced his libido, which I assume would make it easier to resist fornication. Who is correct? Or is this different to-a-man on a case-by-case basis?

      Like

      • Sharkly says:

        I didn’t say that the No-Fap doctrine leads to justifying fornication. The Roman church and their No-Fap doctrine not only forbid fornication and what God has forbidden, but they also forbid many natural and incidental things just for existing in that same physical realm. The church of Rome early on picked up the Gnostic idea of considering the flesh and the physical world to be inherently evil. Although I often use quotes from Saint Augustine, he was certainly seemingly pushing the Gnostic viewpoint that the spiritual/rational is the source of the divine while the physical/material is the source of evil. Thus sex, a physical act of indulging fleshly passion, was seen as ALWAYS evil by the heavily Gnostic influenced church. Some of them encouraged abstinence during marriage. And some like Augustine wrote that only via God’s command to “be fruitful and multiply” could it be possible to override the inherent evil of having sex with your lawfully wedded wife. Thus the Church of Rome came to have their fixation that all physical sex acts, or acts of marital-class physical intimacy, needed to be procreative, otherwise they were evil if they did not contain the redeeming aspect of a live sperm shot sent in to fertilize a woman’s egg, sans the pill.

        Anyhow, I reject the church of Rome’s Gnostic heresy, their push for clerical celibacy, and all their other nonsense which is not predicated on God’s word, but upon their Gnostic idea that pleasing your flesh is always evil. Logically then, scratching an itch would then be an evil act of fleshly indulgence, and the saintlier papists, being “overly righteous”, would wear a hair-shirt to make them itch all the more, to “mortify their flesh”. That literally happened.

        Anyhow, what I am saying is that denying men lawful outlets to satiate their physical drives leads men into far greater temptation to resort to illicit outlets. In his commentary on 1 Corinthians 7:5, Matthew Henry says:

        “Note, Persons expose themselves to great danger by attempting to perform what is above their strength, and at the same time not bound upon them by any law of God. If they abstain from lawful enjoyments, they may be ensnared into unlawful ones. The remedies God hath provided against sinful inclinations are certainly best.”

        Need I to go into how celibate Catholic clergy all too frequently bugger their altar boys? That Gnostic heresy in practice is its own punishment, but furthermore if you fail in your effort to keep your man-made tradition and commit real abominable acts, your eternal soul may be forfeit because of that foolishness.

        Liked by 3 people

      • Jack says:

        I think the answer to my question lies in recognizing the respective contexts. Caterpillar is stating his personal experience, emphasizing the confusion and difficulty, and concludes that not fapping is better for his spiritual life. OTOH, Sharkly is speaking from the standpoint of polity, emphasizing the extreme error of enforcing an Anti-Fap doctrine, and therefore implies that it is better to fap away! (hyperbole intended) This is not an either-or dilemma. By juxtaposing these two viewpoints, we can conclude that men should be encouraged to refrain from fapping, but not required. It is best left to the individual man to “work out his own salvation” (Philippians 2:12).

        Like

    • Jack says:

      Caterpillar345,
      Thank you for your honest thoughts. When men open up and get honest with themselves, with other men, and with God, then they’ll make greater progress in their personal lives.

      Liked by 2 people

  6. rontomlinson2 says:

    “Over the past century, men have slowly drifted away from the more traditional forms and expressions of masculinity and have indulged themselves in an obsession with sex.”

    Yes. Although people in the past were more religious, it’s also true that food was limited and pornography was even more limited.

    So they were more obsessed with eating than with sex. If they had had the opportunity, many would have followed the modern pattern, over-indulging in food and obsessing about sex. So there was no particular virtue in their behaviour, merely a lack of opportunity.

    My own view is that addictions and obsessions are unconscious strategies (or ‘defense mechanisms’) which we use in order to avoid particular feelings.

    For example, people who steadfastly accumulate power are trying to avoid fear, though without necessarily being aware of it. Specifically, the fear of other people.

    So what might be the hidden feeling that mostly good but sex-obsessed people are unconsciously trying to avoid?

    Presumably it’s a higher order feeling. Perhaps compassion.

    I’m not talking about an abstract idea or intention to behave compassionately but a raw feeling in a definite category. What we name it isn’t so important. Suffice it that the heart becomes fuller and fuller with concerns, difficulties and apprehension of evil, and this is unpleasant.

    However we are not meant to avoid the feeling, just as we are not meant to avoid feeling cold when we are cold or feeling hungry when we need food. Rather it is discharged in the best possible way by the Holy Spirit and at the appropriate time. This passionate release will be a pleasant feeling just as the relief of any need is. Pleasant all the way through, without the guilt of a fake release or distraction.

    It is the feeling that the addicts need to experience repeatedly in order to have a choice and to put their appetites into order generally.

    An analogy would be that of exercise. Until someone has consciously experienced the feeling of wellness in the body that exercise induces, repeatedly and reliably, he doesn’t fully understand the benefit of exercise. His understanding is partial and theoretical.

    Anyway, thanks for allowing me to indulge here, in this speculation!

    Liked by 4 people

    • Jack says:

      @RonTomlinson2,

      “So what might be the hidden feeling that mostly good but sex-obsessed people are unconsciously trying to avoid?

      Presumably it’s a higher order feeling. Perhaps compassion.”

      It’s something to ponder. I would also guess they might be trying to fill a void, be it joy, or love, or the unconditional acceptance of one’s unfettered, passionate self-expression, or maybe they’re trying to find healing from being deeply rejected. Or maybe it’s a push-pull combination of two or more factors.

      Like

      • rontomlinson2 says:

        Thanks Jack–

        Notwithstanding the fact that they’re slaves to their addiction, they think they are aiming at something positive; they’re trying to obtain satisfaction. They feel like their actions are under their control. Cocaine, as I understand it, gives users a strong feeling of control.

        They aren’t aware that their motivations are negative and avoidant. This strategy is closed to their awareness, being firmly inside the ‘black box’ portion of their minds.

        The feeling of compassion is unbearable because it is not under their own direct control. If one is not aligned with God and His creation, if one’s trust in God is weak, then this lack of control is intolerable.

        As I said, its proper release is guided by the Holy Spirit in a sort of divine intuition. How could it be otherwise? We’re not smart enough to fight evil on our own.

        We may sense that things are wrong, but by the time we understood a specific evil thoroughly enough to counteract it with a planned strategy, it would be too late.

        Liked by 1 person

  7. Lastmod says:

    “It is the feeling that the addicts need to experience repeatedly in order to have a choice and to put their appetites into order generally.”

    Hmmmmmm…… Maybe…

    Obession or addiction? Habit or a broken spirit (if you will)?

    Just like there are all kinds of pain or happiness, or love…. addiction would fall into a general same thing or “meaning”.

    I’ve looked at and seen porn. Yeah, arousing… sometimes downright funny. (Those old Ron Jeremy flicks we watched in college for laughs… Bad story lines, plots, acting… In fact, we would fast forward through the sex to watch the story. College kids……)

    Porn itself, like the strip club, seemed to be “fantasy” and I never felt addicted to it, or that I must watch it. When I ended up at a strip club (gentlemans club) as a young man with a crew of guys….. yeah, women were hot for the most part……. no doubt. No denying it. But even then I knew in real life, no gal that pretty or hot would ever go for a guy like me. I knew if I bumped into her on the cable car, or on BART, or at some other bar when she wasn’t working…. I would be a creep to her. Fantasy only. Fun times to go…. but I never threw dollar bills on a stage. I thought it kind of silly. Sad too…. After her dance, she’s clunking around in ho-heels, naked….. picking up her paper money that guys just threw at her.

    I never had to fight porn use…. I know many men do. The first time I did a line of cocaine (1996, in a mens bathroom at IBM with a bunch of shirt-and-strangled-by-tie guys). I was hooked. Immediately. Coming off it in 2004, it felt like someone was driving a golf ball through my skull with a sledgehammer. The pain and agony of detoxing was unreal. I will not belittle a man who is coming off porn addiction. It’s probably painful for them.

    Just me here… and I know Oscar will correct me, and belittle my answer: Addictions tend to be the result of a broken spirit in way or another. Scott used the term “trajectory” in one of his videos, stating that once “knocked off” a trajectory into a another direction… Life itself and its outcome can and will be changed forever, and your goal or the direction to that goal can not and in some cases can never be met.

    Different things affect different people addiction wise. To the men out there that have zero addictions or affliction (which is the majority), I cannot be happy for you, and you cannot expect me to. Likewise, I don’t expect sympathy from non-addicts concerning drugs and alcohol. Addicts in general are awful people. All of them.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Oscar says:

      “Just me here… and I know Oscar will correct me, and belittle my answer: addictions tend to be the result of a broken spirit in way or another.”

      Why would I belittle that?

      Like

    • Jack says:

      @LastMod,

      “…addictions tend to be the result of a broken spirit in way or another.”

      I would agree. In comment up north, RonTomlinson2 suggested that sex-obsessed people are unconsciously trying to avoid feelings of compassion. Instead of avoiding something, I also thought they might be trying to fill a void, such as joy, or love, or the unconditional acceptance of one’s unfettered, passionate self-expression, or maybe they’re trying to find healing from being deeply rejected.

      So if you don’t mind me asking, what would you say was the thing you were trying to avoid, or the missing piece you were hoping to find, through your addiction to cocaine?

      Like

      • Lastmod says:

        This is really hard to answer… not because I am going to bring some dark secret or slip you all the answer as to “why” I got addicted to cocaine. It wasn’t any of that.

        I was hardly a saint by 1996. I had done LSD in undergrad and graduate school. Smoked marijuana on and off. Was a beer drinker (ahhh…Samuel Adams… someone please drink one for me, in fact drink two! 🙂 ).

        Cocaine. I can’t explain. I just felt… okay. I didn’t feel nervous around people. I felt more at ease. I could laugh at peoples jokes. I could smile. I could talk. I felt great……. while this was going on… a mild glittery rush and eupohoria washed over me. I actually felt like “everyone else” seemingly confident, happy, having fun……

        Also… it’s a stimulant. So I could DRINK a TON more and not get the wobbles. Whenever I smoked a lot of marijuana I would get lazy or the blurs, and “deep tunnel” vision, which made it impossible for me to function in a social setting. Smoking marijuana was for when I was at home listening to music (usually The Beatles, Pink Floyd, or The Who).

        I could also stay up all night and DANCE on cocaine. I was, even back then, going to Soul / Northern Soul dances in San Francisco, and now I could drink more, feel more social, and could stay out later and dance longer. It also curbed hunger, which I loved. I kept my college-aged 29″ waist well into my late thirties…….

        Also. Work. Work at IBM got DONE. Rip a line or two, get on that computer, get going on work, and the next thing I knew I was plowing through documents. Answering the phone. Getting information. Getting proper notation. Getting answers. It made me HYPER focused at work.

        No, I didn’t get sex, or noticed, or girlfriends, or dates….. but I felt normal, I guess… or, I seemed to be able to function in a social setting properly. Also….. that rush man…… it always felt good. This strange feeling, pleasurable……. amplified….. I was also gagcking up really good cocaine. The quality I was getting was excellent. I was paying well over $150 a gram and it lasted long, and it wasn’t cut with a ton of other stuff. Good cocaine only needs to be cut with a very mild amphetamine.

        I think in the end it just made me fit in, or feel like I did. People didn’t give me nasty looks. People liked my company in social settings……. and it was something I never had as a boy, or a teen….. or even in college / grad school. My skills there were severely behind everyone else’s.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Jack says:

        LastMod, thanks for opening up.

        RonTomlinson just commented that cocaine addiction is about control, and that seems to mesh with your testimony. From what you’ve said, I would describe it as an effortless and efficacious power.

        Hey, I have some news for you (or maybe you already know this). I saw you on The Price is Right. I suppose you were probably playing it up for the camera, but even so, you definitely have a lot of charisma and social efficacy. Your excitement over your big win went viral on Twitter. People commented, “I want this guy’s energy!” You don’t need cocaine to be likeable… Really! You just need to stop being bitter about stuff and getting riled up so easily and be The Price is Right Jason. That is the real you. So when I say, Be yourself!, that should carry meaning. No cocaine added.

        Like

      • Lastmod says:

        Coda: Such a fitting song about cocaine….. and also fitting the art / underground art scene in late 1990’s San Francisco. The Velvet Underground’s “White Light / White Heat” (1968).

        Like

      • Lastmod says:

        Oh you mean this?

        Yeah. Last fall I was asking co-workers for something to do. Too old for the nightclub scene. Let’s not talk about the gym. Volunteering works if you are good looking…… Anyway…… My secretary mentioned, “Jason, go try out for a game show. They’re all produced at Television City or in Burbank, and even if you don’t get to be a contestant, it’s fun to be in the audience.” She then showed me a clip of her on Wheel of Fortune from about two years ago. She came in last, but she won $2,000.00 and she had such a great time.

        I had so much fun on the show. No, I don’t think I was hamming it up. I was genuinely excited. That show is such a fixture. Watching it as a boy in the 1970’s. Whenever I was sick and home from school I always watched it. During college, in-between classes in the TV lounge in the dorm… we would all be there slogging the contestants, “Idiot! You got it wrong! Those prizes should be mine!”

        It was fun. I do feel like I am a part of L.A. now. “Oh yeah, I’ve been on a game show! Hasn’t everybody?”

        Liked by 4 people

    • cameron232 says:

      Normal looking man, not ugly. Not much different looking than me except you’re taller and I have more hair (for now).

      The manosphere ladies auxiliary has said the same thing and they weren’t being nice – you weren’t present for the discussion.

      Normal looking man – average like most of us.

      Liked by 1 person

  8. Scott says:

    If you are a slave to love, just embrace it and listen to some Bryan Ferry.

    Like

  9. jorgen says:

    Once you separate from the following things, it becomes easier to let go the obsession:

    (1) Churches that preach constantly on marriage, making it the totality of Christianity, thus reinforcing sex-obsession.

    (2) Secular songs with lyrics in a language you understand, all of which are about sex and/or relationships, thus reinforcing sex-obsession.

    (3) The overwhelming majority of TV shows, especially sitcoms, which are about relationships and sex, thus reinforcing sex-obsession.

    (4) Mainstream news which constantly pushes LGBTQ+wertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbnm which is about sex, thus reinforcing sex-obsession.

    (5) Pron, which literally is sex, thus reinforcing sex-obsession.

    In fact to tackle the desire to watch pron, detox from the first 4.

    Although sex-obsession is real, it is not really caused by lust or sex-drive. It is caused by a feeling of missing out, or dejection/depression which in turn is caused by all the above sources of brainwashing that push sex-obsession. But because that seems counter-intuitive and “it obviously must be lust”, it’s hard to figure out the real sources of the problem. But behold, I have told you.

    Liked by 4 people

  10. Scott says:

    I gotta call it like I see it.

    In this particular instance, Sharkly is the one who sounds the most rational.

    Liked by 4 people

    • Scott says:

      There are two groups of people throughout history who are obsessed and preoccupied with sex.

      Uber religious/fundamentalists and secular hedonists (think LGTBTQ and that crowd).

      Neither knows how to handle sex.

      Liked by 4 people

      • feeriker says:

        I would argue that the former do infinitely more damage than the latter. Most people who are not one of the latter recognize the excessive degree to which such people fixate on sex. However, the former group go to the opposite extreme, treating sex as the most dangerous and damnable of human sins, rather than a gift from God that is just unfortunately too often abused – by themselves, as well as by hedonists, albeit in a different way.

        Like

  11. catacombresident says:

    The biblical focus is building a covenant community. When sex/marriage serves that purpose, a lot of other issues fall into their proper place. To fap or not is a personal conviction; it’s a huge mistake to make it a doctrine. But porn is idolatry; it’s too easy to figure that out. It’s far more important that we teach men to follow their own convictions by teaching what conviction is; discovering and living by your convictions is a critical element in being a covenant man.

    Liked by 4 people

    • Sharkly says:

      Hopefully when you write, “discovering and living by your convictions”, you mean by reading the Bible and applying it, and are not implying that men should, as the Feminists urge, “find the goddess within yourself”. LOL

      Liked by 1 person

  12. Oscar says:

    Off Topic: Paging Mr. Deti….

    Now if you and your friends are anything like the other young Christian women I know, your chief complaint has to do with the paucity of guys. Where are all the guys? Where did they all go? And then, when you are looking at the handful of guys who do hang around in your church community, you think to yourself, as the saying goes, “the odds may be good, but the goods are odd.”

    And once this complaint has settled in, the tendency is to blame the guys for not showing up. Where are they? It is a natural question, but I actually regard it as a very natural mistake.
    ………
    Say that a young woman in the church applies to and is accepted to the Naval Academy, and she is telling everyone that she wants to fly fighters off carriers. In the average evangelical church, who will be the odd man out? The woman who has this goal, or the person who tries to register some level of concern about it?
    ……..
    A woman today might want to find her BFF, marry him, and then go hiking with him across Europe to create memories. But marriage is a vocation, not a scrapbooking exercise.

    And Paul says that women who turn aside after Satan are women who avoid marriage, avoid having babies, and who avoid the domestic arts. That’s how women turn aside after Satan. And all God’s people said yikes.

    ~ Blog and Mablog (Douglas Wilson): And At Least Six With Chubby Cheeks (2022-4-13)

    Here’s the YouTube version.

    Like

    • Scott says:

      No kidding about being the odd man out.

      You are required to cheer her on, or be ostracized for your ogrish comment.

      Liked by 1 person

      • feeriker says:

        Any church that cheers a woman on for doing such a thing, or for having such an aspiration is NOT a real New Testament church. This would be a church from which one should flee, tout de suite.

        Yes, there are A LOT of fake churches. But you all knew that already.

        Liked by 1 person

  13. Scott says:

    It is a little weird discussing whether or not masturbating is a sin on a blog that links to a husband and wife amateur p0rn site.

    Liked by 3 people

    • Oscar says:

      Um…. what?

      Like

    • Jack says:

      Scott, et al.,
      I added that link to the sidebar a few years ago because the author was writing about how he was dealing with problems in his marriage and how he was making a lot of progress. Since then, he’s changed the overall theme of his blog. The problem with the new theme is that readers can’t glean those tidbits of wisdom from him anymore because they’re distracted by the nude images. I don’t want to give the impression that I endorse or encourage p0rn (which is idolatry), so I have removed that link from the sidebar. Thank you for bringing this up and pointing out the incongruencies.

      Like

  14. imnobody00 says:

    “…they don’t have to live with the constant daily reminders of how much of a headache a woman can be…”

    “This is a good thing, because without it, many wives and marriages would be insufferable.

    Speaking for myself, I have noticed that if the sex with my wife is frequent and satisfying, then I can handle any kind of bad attitude or $h!t test from her. But if the sex is shameful, starfishy, or non-existent for weeks on end, then I can’t even tolerate seeing her around.”

    Yes, this is the problem with American men. The little head is the one choosing the woman to marry. Then, they complain that women are b!tches, but they choose them to marry and have kids with. After that, a life of divorce or marriage conflict, but, hey, the sex is good while it lasts! This is why America is full of b!tches. It is the preferred model.

    I don’t want to be mean or to look that I am AMOGing. My wife is not insufferable for me. She is my best help, my best companion and my life is much better with her. She is the sweetest and kinder spouse. What’s the catch? The catch is the sex is OK, nothing spectacular, especially for a reformed lothario like me.

    By constrast, my first girlfriend was a sex bomb but she was a complete b!tch. I decided not to marry her. I chose my wife with my big head. To each his own, but if you marry a b!tch, please don’t complain.

    Liked by 2 people

    • feeriker says:

      “But if the sex is shameful, starfishy, or non-existent for weeks on end, then I can’t even tolerate seeing her around.”

      I refuse to be dissuaded from the idea that this is one of the reasons why the ancients practiced polygyny. If Wife #1 turns into a frigid and insufferable b!+ch, then she’s replaced in the bedroom with a younger and more willing model, leaving the FB to be head of the household, but with no more sexual attention unless or until she loses the attitude.

      Liked by 2 people

    • Jack says:

      @ImNoBody,

      “But if the sex is shameful, starfishy, or non-existent for weeks on end, then I can’t even tolerate seeing her around.”

      “Yes, this is the problem with American men. The little head is the one choosing the woman to marry.”

      This is true for myself to some extent. (Attractiveness wasn’t the only qualification I had for a wife.) But not so much for RPA. He only became intolerant of his wife after she denied him sex for 17 years.

      Like

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        “But not so much for RPA. He only became intolerant of his wife after she denied him sex for 17 years.”

        This is VERY true Jack. I wanted to marry Mrs. A because she was my best friend and at the time I could not imagine not having her to talk to every day. Conversation came easy and we talked for hundreds of hours over the course of dating. Wives withholding sex messes husbands up and is one of the chief ways they enact Proverbs 14:1.

        Liked by 3 people

      • “Wives withholding sex messes husbands up and is one of the chief ways they enact Proverbs 14:1.”

        Yep. Some close friends divorced after 30 years. She’d have sex with him about once a year and only when drunk. She thought the marriage was a 7 or 8 out of 10. Sad commentary on the church and culture that she was so blind to the truth. He left her, and she’s still clueless as to why. Not that I needed to, but it was an opportunity to put a little dread game into my wife as a friendly reminder, but mostly to encourage her to counsel other women not to withhold sex. She’s had friends who admitted that they use sex to manipulate their husbands. My wife knows that is a profoundly bad idea.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        EM – Your wife is a loving friend if she counsels her friends about the biblical stance on sex in marriage. Wives who use sex to manipulate their husbands, that is to get what they want, are prostituting themselves in every sense of the word, and there are a host of bad consequences that stem from it.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Exactly! If only pastors and others would remind women that exchanging sex for goods and services has an age-old name, and it applies whether you are married or not. Oh, and they should obey 1 Corinthians 7 as well!

        Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        “Exactly! If only pastors and others would remind women that exchanging sex for goods and services has an age-old name, and it applies whether you are married or not. Oh, and they should obey 1 Corinthians 7 as well!”

        The correct biblical stance on married sex is that neither spouse should ever say no when they are capable of saying yes, with the lone exception being abstaining for prayer and fasting for a mutually agreed upon time. Anything short of this is one spouse being sexually immoral towards the other.

        I have read, and then pondered the idea, that withholding sex is done for personal gain on some level, whether that is as simple as being mad your spouse and using sex as the means to communicate being upset or a more straight forward tit for tat performance situation where “He didn’t do X, so I won’t do him.” Withholding is a form of porneia and every bit as damaging to the covenant relationship as the more common English translation of porneia, adultery.

        Liked by 2 people

      • And it isn’t like it is a hard passage to understand. 1 Corinthians 7:1-5 couldn’t be more clear. And even though the feminists want to hate it, it holds men to precisely the same standard. Too bad so many pastors are too gutless to preach on this. They should use it at weddings!

        Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        EM – Along with boldly preaching the very simple to understand message of 1 Corinthians 7, they should hammer the implications of those verses home for weeks at marriage counseling. In an ideal world, the pastor would take the would be groom and his wife would take the would be bride to tell them they can’t say no to each other in order to get as honest a reaction from each party as possible. I bet the percentage of women that would out themselves as being unfit for marriage based simply on their views of control over their bodies would be >75%.

        Liked by 3 people

      • Oscar says:

        I know of a church where a woman was excommunicated for withholding sex from her husband. So, once again, the supposedly impossible is happening. But, also, the pastor was accused of preaching in favor of marital rape, and the husband was accused of all kinds of horrendous abuse in the divorce proceedings.

        There are real life consequences to this stuff.

        Liked by 1 person

    • Scott says:

      Wise words and very similar in concept to the “hot/crazy” matrix that we sometimes see around the net.

      The unicorn, who is basically a 10/10 hot chick with no crazy (and is in to you, and only you) is a unicorn for a reason. In high school, I learned quickly that the hotter my current girlfriend, the more work she was. The only benefit it really gave me was, after going out with a couple like that, I think I benefitted greatly from preselection. “Meet cutes” were almost a given, and I didn’t have to really worry about it.

      The sweet spot is subjective, obviously and my thoughts on assortive mating would be applicable here. Sometimes I see men with very plain-looking wives who (at least in public) are so incredibly sweet to their husbands and I bet those men are super happy. Some of the more average-looking girlfriends I have had were very aggressive and enthusiastic in the bedroom also, so there’s that. It didn’t really bother me if she was a 6.8 or whatever.

      It is a very difficult gauntlet to run indeed, as Jack has suggested in the fornication clarification post. I stand by my long-standing assertion that the developmental trajectory you go through from about 12 y/o to the loss of virginity (however that event happens in your particular case) is the primary factor in how successful you will be in the future, no matter blue pill you are. Once you are solidly on a more or less normative path, its really hard to get knocked off it.

      This makes me “black pill” I think. I bet Thinking Ape would agree with me.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Oscar says:

        Like I said before, hotter women tend to be bitchier because men are more likely to let them get away with it.

        If you can find yourself a woman who’s hot and sweet, go for it! You hit the jackpot! But you’re more likely to find one that is plain and sweet.

        The usual caveats apply. “Hot” and “plain” are subjective terms, and there exists an abundance of bitchy women who vastly overestimate their “hotness”, so as the ref says, protect yourselves at all times.

        Like

      • Oscar says:

        Speaking of the Hot/Crazy Matrix….

        “Say hello to 25-year old Courtney Clenney, aka “Courtney Tailor,” who reportedly has more than a million followers on her OnlyFans account.”
        …….
        “Last we heard from Miss Clenney, she had been committed to psychiatric care under Florida’s Baker Act, after Miami police say she stabbed her ex-boyfriend to death in a luxury apartment. Miss Clenney’s lawyer insists that the stabbing was an act of self-defense, and authorities say that at different times, both she and her ex-boyfriend had been charged with domestic violence.”
        …….
        “Some readers may be tempted to jump to conclusions about this case, but I think it’s important to keep an open mind, to wait for the completion of the police investigation before we decide that this bitch is crazy.

        Looney Tunes, Froot Loops, cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs.

        Permit me to say that a woman who peddles her assets on OnlyFans is a woman that any wise man would be careful to avoid. What sort of status does a man expect to attain from associating with such a woman?

        “Oh, yeah, I saw your girlfriend naked on the Internet.”

        Way to go, Captain Save-a-Hoe.”

        ~ The Other McCain: ‘A Pretty Face Can Hide an Evil Mind’ (2022-4-14)

        Talk about a nightmare.

        Like

    • redpillboomer says:

      “By constrast, my first girlfriend was a sex bomb but she was a complete b!tch. I decided not to marry her. I chose my wife with my big head. To each his own, but if you marry a b!tch, please don’t complain.”

      How true. I was in a similar spot. I had two attractive girls, both potential wives, one a b!tch and one a “good girl.” Looking back, it should NOT have been a battle whatsoever. In fact, when I look back at the situation with a red pill lense, I’d be telling my younger self, “Get the he!! out of there! Run as fast as you can from the B!” BUT, the B was hot, definitely an 8, maybe a 9 (I’m not quite sure what the difference is), definitely “aced the boner test.” AND, I had been in a two year dry spell, pursuing God and my career, and having just turned 30, it was like manna from heaven coming out of my dry spell like that.

      But that’s not what happened (getting the H out of there sooner rather than later). I lingered, I thought and thought about it, grappled with it; and finally, thank God, made a decision, the correct one for certain. I chose my wife, the “good girl”, with my big head, but could have gone the other way which would have unleashed on me, I believe, total he!! in the FEW years there would have been with the B after marrying her.

      What made the difference for me, besides, I believe, God having mercy on my blue pill soul, was the B had this habit of going off on me in spades, and then making it all up in SPADES. The extremes of mood and behavior (Cluster B anyone?) were riveting.

      When the B found out about the “good girl”, she went off on me in extremis, and I believe it was enough to pierce my blue pill mind and register as, “I gotta get the freak out of here!” She tried to make it up to me. I mean, she showed up at my condo in the sexiest outfit I’d ever seen her in, not only were the heels “F me”, everything else was too. And, amazingly my big head told my little head , “No!” She went off on me again right there and then, and I KNEW what I was supposed to do. Somehow, I momentarily was red pilled and I knew I’d not have ANYTHING to do with her anymore. Nothing. Nada. Zilch.

      IMO, it’s the one thing we could teach the younger men (and some of the older ones as well); you’ve got to SEE those red flags (or discern them if more subtle), and get the he!! away or else. Run! Do not pass go. Get the he!! out of there… Or else be prepared for untold misery in your future.

      BTW, I saw my old Cluster B flame on Facebook, she’s an older lady now, not really good looking, even for an older woman, hit the wall hard at some point. She’s got a real sour expression on her face; and she’s also apparently single (no surprise there), and… drum roll please… a Cat Lady with an FB pic of her holding two cats in her arms. You can’t make this stuff up.

      And “good girl” now? We’ve been married for 33 years. I can’t emphasize the criticality of vetting women properly for men, especially these days. I was lucky God had mercy on me and wouldn’t let my little head make the decision.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Good for you! And yes, it is by the mercy of God that I didn’t choose otherwise as well. The stupid things I did back then were legion, especially with girls, but I knew enough that there was a limited category of girls you should marry. My dad said that marrying Mrs. EM was the smartest thing I ever did, and he was probably right. Of course, she has her flaws. But on balance, she was the wisest choice, and we are in our 37th year of marriage.

        Side note: While there are no guarantees on this, I made it clear when we were dating that I wanted a wife that wouldn’t let herself go physically. She was an athlete in high school (volleyball) but had drifted from working out until we got serious. Then she got disciplined about fitness while we were dating. She’s done a variety of things over the years (currently Pilates and ballroom dancing) and her figure is better than most teens. I did my part by always staying in shape as well.

        Liked by 1 person

    • anonymous_ng says:

      I’m reminded of reading about the actor Earnest Borgnine who was married twice. His first marriage lasted for two weeks before he divorced her. As the story goes, he realized that while relationships require effort, they shouldn’t be hard work, and a battle every day.

      Apparently, his second marriage was notable for how well he and his wife got on with each other.

      This compounds on the idea that generally, things are going to be the best they will ever be when you are first dating. I know that it’s not entirely true, but there is some truth there.

      When you aren’t living together, even if you are feeling a bit under the weather, you can put on a happy face for a couple hours to go on a date etc.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Sharkly says:

        In hindsight I should have divorced after two weeks as well. It was clear almost immediately that my wife suddenly had zero interest in being the same person I had been attracted to during our courtship. And instead she began exhibiting horrible evil distancing behaviors to try to end all chances of any form of close intimacy, emotional, spiritual, or physical. I didn’t believe in divorce and tried to get help from churches and such, but in the end she sh!t in her own nest so profusely that even she couldn’t live with the mess she had made, and she divorced me. Like Christ, as I was giving up my own life, I was being abused, rejected, and spat upon for it.

        At one point my opinion would have been that Ernest Borgnine showed a lack of character by divorcing after only two weeks, but now, being older and wizened, I would advise my own sons to bail out just as quickly from an unequally yoked marriage to a godless liar who suddenly has no intention of being the godly wife she pretended she would be.

        Here is some ancient wisdom:

        Sirach 25:24-26 (GNT)
        24 Sin began with a woman, and we must all die because of her. 25 Don’t let a bad wife have her way, any more than you would allow water to leak from your cistern. 26 If she won’t do as you tell her, divorce her.

        Like

    • Oscar says:

      “Yes, this is the problem with American men. The little head is the one choosing the woman to marry.”

      It’s not just American men, it’s all men from every culture and every time. Otherwise, why would the book of Proverbs warn men that “charm is deceitful, and beauty is fleeting” (Proverbs 31:30)? Why are there similar warnings in the wise writings of every civilization with a written language?

      Let’s not pretend that this is a problem unique to our time or place. No temptation has befallen us than that which is common to man (1 Corinthians 10:13).

      Liked by 1 person

  15. Pingback: A Clarification on Fornication | Σ Frame

  16. Rock Kitaro says:

    Gotta add my two cents here because this is an issue that’s racked my conscience on and off for a few years. In reading the Bible, I’ve found no specific verse that says fapping is a sin… but there are scriptures that’s pretty clear about fornication and sexual immorality. I’ve concluded that fapping isn’t one of those things that’s going to keep me from the Kingdom of Heaven, but deep down, I confess there’s a bit of shame in me.

    1) I am a virgin. I vowed to wait until marriage to have sex and I’m very outspoken on my website about how destructive and sinful the Hook-Up Culture and Sex Outside of marriage is. Like, it’s wrong. Plain as day. That being said… part of me feels like a hypocrite who has no business preaching about the topic because of the habit. It’s a small part of me, but it’s there.

    2) While I am proud of being a virgin, another part of me feels like “the habit” almost negates my chastity. I do believe that “sex” is between two people. So you can’t have sex with yourself. But at the same time, you can “simulate it”… so… it’s a stupid blurred line that my conscience struggles with.

    3) As much as I have tried to stop, especially since reading the entire Bible and committing my life to being a Bible practicing Christian… I don’t want to say I’m different, but compared to the effects described by others, it just doesn’t sound familiar.

    To be clear, I don’t watch p0rn, nor do I feel like I’m a slave to the habit. When the act happens, it’s mainly just mental stimulation that results in my having a need to “relieve” myself, almost like a biological need to get it out of my system, like using the restroom. This “relieving” is important to mention, because I’ve seen MGTOW videos where pump-up guys are like, “Instead of fapping, you need to take that energy and hit the gym!”

    But for me… it’s like, it isn’t UNTIL I relieve myself that I can actually function on a higher, more productive level, letting go of feelings like loneliness or wishing I was with someone. I can still function without relieving myself, but I confess, it’s more difficult. My stupid mind, like others have mentioned, keeps wandering to the sex that’s flashed at me nearly every turn in society. Honestly, the relief really is like an internal reaction where the cloud is lifted. I’m now able to focus better on goals and be more efficient in my work. Not before, but after. Is that weird? Sorry if this is all stupid. I’ve never disclosed this to anyone. Not even my brothers.

    Liked by 3 people

    • cameron232 says:

      No Rock it’s very typical – you’re not unusual. Young men are bombarded with female immodesty and sex from the time they’re middle school age or earlier. Very hard to get sex off your mind once it’s there. It would help if society has reasonably modest standards for female modesty.

      Liked by 3 people

    • Hey Rock — Just came across this Podcast where they addressed that subject.

      Men in the Arena Podcast: AMA 6: Is Masturbation a Sin?- Equipping Men in Ten EP 535 (2022-4-19)

      Short version: In their view, it isn’t a sin if lust isn’t involved.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Jack says:

      Rock,
      Thank you for opening up. This is one area in which men have a strong aversion against discussing. But I think if men can talk about it, then we can sort things out much faster.

      P0rn is idolatry, and should be avoided. Whether masturbating is a sin, or detrimental to one’s spiritual life, depends on the individual. Some men can function well without relieving themselves, while others can’t. Some men can jerk off without succumbing to lust and p0rn, but others can’t. However, if a man can’t function without jerkin the gherkin, and he can’t masturbate without impulsively going to p0rn, then this will become a stronghold, as mentioned in the OP. Men like this probably have to get married to escape this stronghold, but of course, this introduces a whole different set of problems to work through.

      “…it isn’t UNTIL I relieve myself that I can actually function on a higher, more productive level, letting go of feelings like loneliness or wishing I was with someone. I can still function without relieving myself, but I confess, it’s more difficult. My stupid mind, like others have mentioned, keeps wandering to the sex that’s flashed at me nearly every turn in society. Honestly, the relief really is like an internal reaction where the cloud is lifted. I’m now able to focus better on goals and be more efficient in my work. Not before, but after. Is that weird?”

      Judging by the comments from others in the past, I think your experience is rather typical, and in terms of its effects on your life, you’re probably better off than average. What is different from man to man is (1) how severe that “cloud” is, (2) whether he is able to jerk off without giving in to lust and p0rn, and (3) whether it becomes a stumbling block in his spiritual life. I think the severity of the “cloud”, the overall effects of masturbation on one’s mood and spiritual life, and the magnetic draw towards p0rn all depend on a wide assortment of exacerbating factors, including things like generational curses (e.g. idolatry, parental marital dysfunction and/or divorce, being orphaned), poor parenting (e.g. single mother), dysfunctional upbringing (e.g. physical abuse, harpy female relatives), a bad marriage (e.g. an affair, divorce), sick family members, physical issues (athletic disinterest, poor health, poor diet/nutrition), poor socialization habits (e.g. being a poor communicator, poor social adjustment, history of rejection), psychological issues (e.g. personality, temperament, childhood trauma, low self-image, depression, repressed anger), and probably many others.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Rock Kitaro says:

        Thanks man! Between you and Eternity, I certainly have a lot to think about. Just one more question…perhaps you’ve already written about it and I can find a link….what’s the difference between Lust and Attraction? My mind’s pretty determined when it comes to not “lusting” after another man’s wife (or even committed girlfriend). But when it comes to single women, I confess, I think my attraction for them is tied to my lust. I want to have sex with them (when we’re married) and that’s the main reason why I want to get to know them and learn about their personalities. So, if it isn’t for lust, I wouldn’t be drawn to her. I’d just see her as a platonic associate.

        Like

      • Jack says:

        Rock,
        I have not yet written a post about the difference between lust and attraction, but I’ll say a few things here according to my own understanding of attraction and lust.

        Attraction is a natural gravitation that draws one to another. The Manosphere has described attraction in great detail for both men and women, but I’ll add that most of what you’ll find here concerns the fleshly attraction. I don’t think fleshly attraction is wrong or sinful, but if that’s all you’ve got, then it’s not going to be enough to make a relationship work out. I believe there is a deeper kind of attraction, which can be discovered through the methods described in the two most recent posts, Harnessing the Motivations of Others and Pursuing Flow to develop Confidence and Trust, but of course, there is much more that happens in a mature, God glorifying relationship, things like humility, trust, shared values, shared experiences, having complementary personalities, reciprocality, and others. All of these things contribute towards attraction.

        OTOH, lust is what the Manosphere would call a “poverty mentality” (as opposed to an “abundance mentality”), meaning, that you’re choosing or opening yourself up to not being content with yourself and what you have, and you’re wanting something you don’t have, and (probably) can’t/won’t get (or at least not properly). It’s sort of a complaint against God because you’re convincing yourself that you’re not satisfied with Him, and that He won’t give you what you need. In the end, you’re just making yourself unthankful, discontent, and frustrated, all because of your desires and imaginations.

        However, if you’re involved with a real life love interest with the potential of moving forward towards marriage, then the desire shifts from being a fantasy about an unattainable object to a hope for something real and attainable. The difference lust and hope in this case is that you have the faith to obtain that which is hoped for. But the thing is, if your hope is not fulfilled within a short timeframe, then it will leave you as broken as lust would have done, maybe moreso, because it also breaks your faith.

        Also, Deep Strength has written a lot of posts about attraction and lust that you’ll want to check out. Here are a few to get you started.

        Christianity and Masculinity: Male and female sexual desire is not sinful (2015-8-19)
        Christianity and Masculinity: The law of reciprocality (2015-8-20)
        Christianity and Masculinity: Revisiting Matthew 5:27-28 on lust (2016-12-19)
        Christianity and Masculinity: The fear of women leads to failure (2021-3-26)

        You can do a internet search and find a lot more information about lust in the Bible and Bible commentaries. But if you still find all this hard to comprehend in your heart, then I suggest that you should pray and ask God to show you exactly what lust is, and how it is different from attraction.

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        Here’s a definition of lust.

        New Advent: Lust (2021)

        I don’t know if any studies have been done but you would think that in about 99% of cases men who are beating off are either watching pornography or thinking about sex with a woman they’re not married to. This fits my understanding of the definition of lust but there will be many men here who will be happy to share the teachings of the bible with you.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Jack says:

        “I don’t know if any studies have been done but you would think that in about 99% of cases men who are beating off are either watching pornography or thinking about sex with a woman they’re not married to.”

        Yeah, whenever I hear people say that “Masturbation is fine, as long as you don’t lust, I think they’re not being very realistic. Most men, once they’ve fallen into the throes of erotic passion, are going to be scratching and clawing their keyboards to the ends of the internet for any skin images they can find.

        Liked by 3 people

      • cameron232 says:

        You would think so. Even if you deny yourself cable and internet service there would be the temptation to indulge in thoughts about women around you in real life who aren’t your wife.

        Liked by 3 people

      • Jack says:

        “…there would be the temptation to indulge in thoughts about women around you in real life who aren’t your wife.”

        Yes, this gets closer to the heart of the matter.

        I’ve known some Christians here in Taiwan who believe that it’s corrupting/lustful/sinful to fantasize about love, romance, or sex — with anyone — at all! They take Matthew 5:28 literally! (Imagine that!) They won’t put themselves into places or situations where sexual fantasies enter into their minds. The way sex works for them is whenever sex happens, they get into the moment, immerse themselves in passion, and just do it. They don’t think about it at all! I never heard about this mental-control as a means of self-control until I met people from Taiwan. But I’ve come to believe that they have a much better handle on not letting lust enter into their hearts than anyone I’ve known in the States.

        I think they picked up on this because James 1:14-15 corresponds to a Buddhist teaching that is well known in this culture (paraphrased): “Desires become thoughts. Thoughts become actions. Actions become habits. Habits become a lifestyle.” The Buddhist conclusion is that desire must be controlled or eradicated, but the Christian approach is to monitor the inclinations of the heart and to direct one’s imaginations towards positive things (Philippians 4:8-9). 1 Corinthians 10 and Galatians 5:16-26 also correspond with this same idea.

        I should add that these people seem to have a lower libido than average. I’m not sure if that’s a cause or an effect of them taking this approach. Maybe both, as it has the nature of a stronghold.

        Liked by 1 person

  17. Scott says:

    “OTOH, lust is what the Manosphere would call a “poverty mentality” (as opposed to an “abundance mentality”)…”

    Jack, I am not sure about this.

    Scarcity vs. Abundance mentality are concepts that predate the manosphere, and come from social psychology. In short, the scarcity principle is why Home Shopping Network has a countdown in the corner of the screen.

    “Only 15 left.”

    “Hurry, while supplies last!”

    And so on.

    When we believe, or are made to believe that the opportunity to obtain something has dwindled (or is rapidly dwindling) we are more likely to do whatever it takes to obtain it before supply runs out. Even if the thing is useless or we have no need for it. People are idiots. It has implications in economic (game) theory and you can probably also see, many other areas of our lives.

    Men who walk around with a scarcity mentality have “one-itis” believing that the girl they have latched on to with their orbiting crush behavior or the one they just lost in a break up was their “soul mate” or their one and only “true love.” They believe this because of everything from Lancelot to John Hughes. It is important (to women) for men to believe this, because the female preferred mating strategy is serial monogamy, and hopefully sticking the landing on the last one. If all men are stuck in this mentality (especially the super sexy hot alphas that they actually want), they can be manipulated to the full bend of the feminine imperative.

    Abundance mentality then, is the idea (or I would call just knowing in your heart) that there are a million more where she came from, and if you just wait for a half-second another one will come along shortly. Like buses, or fish in the sea, or whatever metaphor you choose.

    I think there are some things you can do to increase abundance mentality, but my usual caveats apply (most of it is genetic/developmental). Also, if you never have “meet-cutes” because of intrinsic interpersonal weirdness, you will probably latch on to any girl that looks in your direction, and be susceptible to one-itis.

    I guess you could adopt a mantra like Rollo has — “No matter how hot she is, there is some guy out there who is sick of her sh!t” is my favorite one.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Jack says:

      @Scott,

      “Men who walk around with a scarcity mentality have “one-itis” believing that the girl they have latched on to with their orbiting crush behavior or the one they just lost in a break up was their “soul mate” or their one and only “true love.”

      This is exactly what I’m talking about. Men like this are victims of their own lusts. Their weakness for lust is what screws up their inner game and makes them wussified. It’s also the reason why women pass them over. Then they feel rejected and become desperate, and this increases their lusts. It’s a stronghold.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Scott says:

        Alright, I can buy that. It’s probably got some variant noise, but more or less correlates.

        I think lust is a weird word in general. Probably just a personal hang up.

        Like

      • Jack says:

        “It’s probably got some variant noise, but more or less correlates.

        I think lust is a weird word in general. Probably just a personal hang up.”

        Yeah, it is hard to nail down a concise definition of lust, because it is an abstract spiritual disposition, not an observable behavior. But if I were to assign a set of behaviors that are associated with lust, it would be the ongoing poverty mentality, and an “addiction” to masturbation and p0rnography (the latter is an idol associated with lust). You’re right, it’s a correlation, but I think it’s a strong correlation.

        I use the term “poverty mentality” as opposed to “scarcity mentality” because it puts the focus on one’s attitude, not the market conditions. But this could be confusing too, because “poverty” is associated with financial destitution. But I mean it to describe spiritual destitution.

        The Bible uses the descriptor “concupiscence” which is nearly archaic and doesn’t offer any more insight towards a description.

        Like

      • Scott says:

        Quoting myself…

        “Abundance mentality then, is the idea (or I would call just knowing in your heart) that there are a million more where she came from, and if you just wait for a half-second another one will come along shortly. Like buses, or fish in the sea, or whatever metaphor you choose.”

        I think this is why I have been so “successful” in this regard. I am naturally inclined to operate quite comfortably in the false-created world of serial monogamy. I have generally suffered in between LTRs and other less than ideal situations from one-itis with an intrinsic knowledge of the reality of the situation. Eventually, I snap out of it and back to abundance as soon as I “want” to or feel I have sufficiently processed the death of the previous relationship.

        Looking back, I realize now that I was always in complete control of that process.

        Like

      • Jack says:

        @Scott,

        “Looking back, I realize now that I was always in complete control of that process.”

        In the past, you said you had no control over when you got your “Meet Cute mojo” back after a break up. Sometimes it took weeks, and other times it took a year or two. Is having an abundance mentality not the same thing? How do you think they are related?

        Like

      • Scott says:

        I think the point I am making here is the difference between actually having no control and perceiving it. It’s locus of control stuff.

        When I think about the periods in between when I was wallowing in self-doubt and believing that I found the one true love who got away, it was all mindset. Some of it was aesthetic, to be honest. You sort of “have” to act that way so as to make it look like you’re good for the cameras (your peers).

        Never underestimate the power of conditioning.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Jack says:

        Scott,
        Yes, it’s locus of control stuff. But men who can’t perceive that they have control don’t actually have control. I would guess this largely depends on the overall trajectory. Nevertheless, the thinking and the deeper beliefs behind the self-actualization (or the lack thereof, for lack of a better term) make all the difference. That period of wallowing in self-doubt is a time when men grapple with the issues and learn that they DO have agency and control, and that they CAN move past it. Some men can do this in a short time, others longer, while some never get it.

        To address my earlier question, I’m guessing that the “Meet Cute mojo” correlates with having an abundance mentality, but I’m not sure how well they are related. I think there are other factors as well.

        Like

  18. Maniac says:

    As I’ve said in other similar posts, I believe Jesus’s words about lust in the SOTM were intended to prevent self-righteousness, not promote sexual repression.

    In Matthew 11:30, Jesus tells us that His yoke is light, and trying to block every sexual urge, thought, tingle, sensation, and notion back when I was a teenager felt like an anvil was tied around my neck.

    Liked by 2 people

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