When walking on eggshells, step boldly!

A deeper understanding of the risks and benefits of opening up to a woman.

Readership: All
Length: 2,100 words
Reading Time: 7 minutes
Reader’s Note: This is the 8th post of a series on masculinity. Here is the full list of posts in this series.

  1. Σ Frame: Redefining Manhood as Boyish Immaturity (2021 June 14)
  2. Σ Frame: Do men need talk therapy? (2021 June 16)
  3. Σ Frame: Entering Manhood (Rite of Passage) (2021 June 18)
  4. Σ Frame: A Man’s Ability to Read IOIs Depends on Having a Firm Grasp on His Personal Archetypal Mythos (2021 June 21)*
  5. Σ Frame: Men’s Fantasy of Emotional Intimacy (2021 June 23)
  6. Σ Frame: 8 Things that Increase Discernment (2021 June 25)
  7. Σ Frame: Women rely on a man’s Frame for Redemptive Introspection (2021 June 28)
  8. Σ Frame: When walking on eggshells, step boldly! (2021 June 30)
  9. Σ Frame: Answers to the Exit Questions for the Series on Masculinity (2021 July 2)

Of note, this series received a few responses from around the Manosphere.

This post will summarize the major conclusions from this series.

Definitions of “Maturity”

The subject of maturity was introduced in the first post. It was noted that self-centered, solipsistic women are prone to psychological projection, and have their own definition of maturity that fits the following descriptions.

  1. Any symptom of human frailty is boyish immaturity.
  2. Anything she feels is undignified or makes her feel embarrassed or ashamed is juvenile.
  3. Any interest in stereotypically masculine interests (e.g., drinking, fitness training, sports, hobbies, territory marking behaviors, etc.) is seen as immaturity.
  4. A lack of “respect” is regarded as immaturity.*
  5. Anything extraneous to the feminine imperative is labeled boyish immaturity.

* Women have their own definition of “respect” as well. He must defer obeisant fealty to her royal pain-in-the-@$$ imagined feminine dominance, and if he doesn’t, then he is being disrespectful to her.

As Deep Strength pointed out,

“The issue is not maturity though. A woman’s preconceived notions of what they think is “mature” or not is their will manifesting as pride: they think they know what is better than the man they are with and are setting themselves up as the judge of that.”

Yes, and although this is a false concept of maturity, being aware of this fact allows men to translate the femtalk code.

IMHO, immaturity may be better understood as a lack of maturity. Maturity is a complex topic that I will address in a future post. &

Definitions of “Weakness”

In previous comments, the discussion of mens’ weaknesses were generally contained within three different categories.

  1. Weaknesses due to Human Frailty – Depression, emotional wounds, errors, failures, flaws, foibles, hurts, illness, injuries, imperfections, joblessness, mistakes, pains, screwups, setbacks, and personal struggles.
  2. Weaknesses in Character/Personality – Evading responsibility, lack of applied intelligence, lack of self-control, lack of self-discipline, mental issues, moral defects, physically abusive, rebelliousness, self-justification, sexual promiscuity, substance abuse/addiction, etc.
  3. Weaknesses in Confidence/Faith –Cowardly, effeminate, having a flaccid will, indecisive, insufficiently determined to “finish the job” well, and a willingness to fold at the first setback, loss, or difficulty.

Generally speaking, Alpha’s don’t show weaknesses of any variety. It seems to be their personal code of situational ethics. Alpha’s are exceptionally good at covering their weaknesses, and/or recasting/transforming their weaknesses into strengths. Some women will be blinded by the Alpha-ness, and only see a man who has a resilient ego and is impervious to weakness. Women may choose to be content with this impression and consider this to be sufficient for their hypergamous ego needs.

Robin Williams and Paul Dooley star as Popeye (foreground) and J. Wellington “Wimpy” (background) respectively (1980).

Concerning womens’ weaknesses, a previous scientific study of Conflict Structure and Marital Satisfaction (2017 November 15), revealed that women who have the following traits are usually considered (by men) to be weaker than others.

  1. Women who have been abused, or who are more emotionally needy, i.e. who have an intense craving for closeness.
  2. Women who are rude, ungrateful, disrespectful, domineering, and therefore cannot maintain a satisfying relationship with a man who desires to be close to them.
  3. Women who have been rejected by men, who consequently have a greater desire for closeness.
  4. Sexually frigid women, or women with an exceedingly low SMV/MMV, whom men do not want to be close to.
  5. Women who have had intimate, sexual relationships with a number of men, and thus have gained certain emotional needs/expectations which cannot be satisfied through closeness to any one man.
  6. Women who lack the skills and abilities required to meet others’ needs, which reduces the power they have in maintaining closeness.

It is interesting to note that all of these indicators of womens’ weaknesses fit within the second category of mens’ weaknesses — Weaknesses in Character/Personality. Women are not considered weak because of their Human Frailties nor their lack of Faith/Confidence. After all, they are women!

Aside from the Alpha-apex fallacy, different women have different views of mens’ weaknesses. In general, more mature women are more forgiving of human frailty, and less so about character flaws. Less mature women prioritize human strengths, and are more accepting of character flaws. Men are strongly disqualified by most all women for weaknesses in Confidence/Faith.

The interplay between mens’ and womens’ views of emotional vulnerability and weakness will be explored in the next four sections. Remember that the arguments about weakness are subject to the respective definitions given above.

The Difference Between Emotional Vulnerability and Weakness

This is Deti’s first point in a comment. He describes the case in which a woman is blinded by Alphaness/Tingles and is never faced with existential concerns.

“There’s a difference between vulnerability and weakness.”

“A woman is fine seeing a man’s vulnerability, IF AND ONLY IF:

  1. She is very sexually attracted to him, so hard sexually attracted to him she can’t even see straight (e.g., Elspeth, Liz, and Mychael)
    1. Those vulnerabilities do not affect her personally, threaten her home or children, or threaten to put her in the poorhouse
    1. Those vulnerabilities are temporary and resolve on their own with no action or intervention from her.

She is NOT EVER fine seeing him weak, or wounded, or down and out, or down on his luck.”

An excellent example of this is the famous interview with Flex Lewis in which he talks about his pain and suffering in his efforts to win a championship, while the two female reporters are totally $h!t faced with visceral desire for him.

The Difference between a Man’s Desire for Love and his Desire for Respect

This is Deti’s second point.

“There’s also a difference between a man’s desire for love and his desire for respect.

It is NOT the “desire of a man’s heart to be loved on the basis of [her] intimate knowledge [of him]”. That’s love he gets from Mom. It IS the desire of a man’s heart that his wife respect him on the basis of recognition of his abilities, strengths, and position.”

“…a man does not “desire to be loved on the basis of intimate knowledge”. He desires to be RESPECTED based on her knowledge of his abilities, strengths, and position.”

Superposed on top of this is the fact that men feel loved when they are able to open up in humility and Heart Trust, and speak freely about their thoughts, emotions, fears, and desires, without any fear of backlash, and still be respected by the woman!

The problem is that men often fail to exercise discernment as to whether a woman is actually capable of offering either love or respect, and therefore he opens up under the assumption that it is right to do so, or that honesty is important, or merely because he desires to be loved by her. As a general rule of thumb (for those men who are weak in discernment), a woman is not going to offer this kind of acceptance, understanding, and love unless and until she is already in the regular habit of offering respect.

The Difference between How a Woman interprets the Intimacy of Emotional Vulnerability and her Revulsion of Seeing Certain Weaknesses in Him

Here’s Deti’s third point. This is where things get confusing for men and sticky for women.

“And yet another difference between a woman knowing a man intimately; and a woman seeing a man at his worst when he’s down, down on his luck, knocked down, wounded and weak.

Knowing a man intimately is a woman knowing her man’s likes, dislikes, personality, foibles, quirks, idiosyncracies, routines, and the way he lives his life day in day out.

A woman does NOT want to know intimately a man’s wounds, weaknesses, injuries, hurts, pains, failures, setbacks, mistakes, screw-ups, and struggles. Or, if she knows them, she wants to just know of them, and know that he’s taking care of them on his own with no help from her, and that those things will not affect her, her kids, or her access to resources. She needs to make sure that no matter what, the resource flow to her and her kids continues uninterrupted. No matter what else is going on with him, he needs to make damn sure she’s getting what she needs. Doesn’t matter if he’s hurt, in pain, dealing with wounds, or whatever – the money needs to keep flowing, or else she’s OUT.”

Here, Deti is describing a very specific kind of interaction. In more general terms, whatever weaknesses the man has, it cannot be something that affects her peculiar set of emotional and psychological needs. Again, this varies somewhat from woman to woman. The problem is that most men bumble into a relationship while being totally ignorant of what she sees in him that is attractive to her. Because of his lack of self-awareness, he doesn’t know what to reveal to her, and what not to reveal, and so she becomes upset and offended by those things that she is sensitive to, and he is totally unaware of why she lost her cool. But if a man can show emotional vulnerability without crossing her sacred inviolable combination of Tingle factors, then this can increase intimacy between them.

For most men, this is more trouble than it is worth, given the insufferable quality of women that are available these days. They’ll never come out and explicitly say what they want and need, and they’ll never do what Hanging with Mi suggests in the next video.

To some extent, a woman must take up the slack. In the following video, Hanging with Mi describes how women can restrain themselves from their own relationship destroying habits. These habits allow a man to come out of his shell and experience humility, peace, and joy in the relationship.

The next section will address the main reason why women cannot do this.

Women are Fearful of Weak Men

Deti wrote about how women are incapable of dealing with perceived weaknesses in men [edited for clarity]. Ultimately, it boils down to her own personal weaknesses combined with a lack of faith.

“What also factors into this is the women’s/wives’ character flaws. Because of those flaws, those women are damaged if not completely broken. A damaged or broken woman cannot handle vulnerability or weakness in men. She can’t countenance damage or breakage in others – because she herself is damaged and broken. She needs him to be strong because she can’t do it- things in her are damaged and broken. This prevents men from showing vulnerability because if she sees a man vulnerable or wounded, alarm bells go off in her head –

“He can’t take care of me!  He can’t help me!  He’s gonna get killed!  He’s gonna get me killed!  He’s gonna get our kids killed!  We’re gonna lose everything!  We’re gonna end up in the poorhouse!!  OH MY GOD!!!  GET ME AWAY FROM HIM!!”

That’s the dynamic.”

The problem here is that every man has his own set of weaknesses, and these weaknesses cannot be made to vanish overnight. To some extent, the woman must accept this as a fact of life, and those who cannot will always be disappointed with the man.

NovaSeeker further explained why men cannot show vulnerability, and why this is more important after marriage.

“[Women] catalog everything we [men] say or do that shows any sort of vulnerability or weakness away in their brains and later on that information and knowledge is deployed against you in some way. It often doesn’t happen immediately, and in the context of a BF/GF relationship with a woman who is not naturally toxic/BPD/etc., it can seem to work ok. But when the marriage comes into force, the entire power dynamic is forcibly shifted, and you will eventually have all of that info come back and be used against you, either openly or covertly, in how she decides to “manage” you.”

Emotionally healthy and spiritually mature women are exceedingly rare. Most women are like hungry, wounded animals. Even though you might be trying to help them, they will still lash out and bite, and they will hit you where you are most vulnerable.

Conclusions

Red Pill Apostle wrote a summary which forms an excellent conclusion here.

“…the reality [is] that many women, when faced with her husband being open about his fears, his doubts, his desires, react very poorly. Shaming. Manipulation. Anger. These are the responses many of us get from our wives. It only takes so long before a man, me included, realizes that the burden of not opening up to his wife is less than the burden of opening up to her.

Part of the burden is not having someone to ease the load at times. Part of the burden is knowing that the girl you have chosen as your one and only, the person who your heart should be safe with does not have the same capacity for depth of intimacy. So we assess our relationship in the world we actually live in, determine the pleasantries, some fun times in each other’s company, enough physical intimacy to satisfy the itch and common goals are enough to continue to build a life that is better than most.

But get to the point where you can trust your wife with your heart when she’s been so reckless over the years? It’s a long shot that is probably not going to work out well. This is why Proverbs 31:10-12 says,

”A wife of noble character who can find?  She is worth far more than rubies.  Her husband has full confidence in her and lacks nothing of value.  She brings him good, not harm, all the days of her life.”

If a man has such a wife, he might be able to feel the freedom, heartfelt love, and joy that comes of sharing his whole heart, mind, and soul with her. But for some men, this deeper understanding only comes in old age, after being married for decades, when nothing really matters anymore. The majority of men never make it that far, probably because they say too much, too honestly, in their desire for greater intimacy with their wives.

Related

  1. Σ Frame: Confidence and Authenticity in Speech (2009 December 28)
  2. Illimitable Men: The Game of Power (2014 April 22)
  3. Illimitable Men: Understanding Female Psychology (2016 March 16)
  4. Σ Frame: Conflict Structure and Marital Satisfaction (2017 November 15)
  5. Σ Frame: Disciplined, Submissive, Happy Wives (2018 February 15)
  6. Σ Frame: How To Get A Better Response From Your Girl (2018 February 27)
  7. Σ Frame (J.T. Anderson): Moulding an Excellent Wife (2018 March 5)
  8. Σ Frame: Apprehending True Humility (2019 April 7)
  9. Σ Frame: The Trust Factor (2019 April 18)
  10. Σ Frame: 2 Frames of Reference for Identifying the Trust Factor (2019 April 23)
  11. Σ Frame: Creating and Maintaining Heart Trust (2019 April 28)
  12. Σ Frame: Do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing. (2020 January 27)

About Jack

Jack is a world traveling artist, skilled in trading ideas and information, none of which are considered too holy, too nerdy, nor too profane to hijack and twist into useful fashion. Sigma Frame Mindsets and methods for building and maintaining a masculine Frame
This entry was posted in Attraction, Confidence, Conflict Management, Determination, Fundamental Frame, Health, Holding Frame, Hypergamy, Influence, Introspection, IOI's, Leadership, Male Power, Maturity, Personal Growth and Development, Models of Failure, Models of Success, Personal Presentation, Power, Self-Concept, Sexual Authority, SMV/MMV, Solipsism, Vetting Women. Bookmark the permalink.

174 Responses to When walking on eggshells, step boldly!

  1. cameron232 says:

    Scott said this I think – you’re alone in the world – just accept it and find peace. You’ll never be able to share what’s inside you with her and she probably wouldn’t empathize anyway. She’ll care when she senses something is wrong AND SHE DOESN’T KNOW WHAT because women hate when something’s wrong and they don’t know what it is. But once she knows she won’t empathize (if you’re lucky) and if you’re unlucky she will use it against you. Worse yet if it involves her because they can’t usually see their own flaws and how they f_ck you up inside. They’re always victims not perps. Oh yeah – she might sympathize if she thinks it’s an existential threat to whatever she gets out of the relatinship (e.g. her debit card working) and thinks another woman might take that from her and she thinks she can actually do something about it to bring you back.

    And most men won’t care either, you’ll get an obligatory “yeah man that sucks” if the guy is your friend. If there’s one that would it’s your dad (if you were lucky enough to get a good one) and he’s dead and gone.

    Adam P. I think said something similar to what Scott said. From memory. You only really know two people in this world: yourself and Jesus. Everyone else is a mystery and in any case is working their own sh!t out. The moment you realize, realize you’re utterly alone in this world, this is the most horrifying moment in your life but when you accept it and don’t give a sh!t, it’s liberating. Adam gets credit for that one – he’s right.

    Liked by 2 people

    • redpillboomer says:

      “Adam P. I think said something similar to what Scott said. From memory. You only really know two people in this world: yourself and Jesus. Everyone else is a mystery and in any case is working their own sh!t out. The moment you realize, realize you’re utterly alone in this world, this is the most horrifying moment in your life. But when you accept it and don’t give a sh!t, it’s liberating. Adam gets credit for that one – he’s right.”

      Agree with this! One slight alteration:

      “The moment you realize, realize you’re utterly alone in this world, this is the most horrifying moment in your life. But when you accept it, and don’t give a sh!t, and develop your relationship with God and let Him handle it all, then it’s liberating.”

      I value any help I get from men or women, but I don’t go looking for it. I focus on God, go to work on myself in becoming the best version of myself I can possibly be/become, then any ‘help’ that comes along, I see the ‘hand of God’ in it. In other words, He set it up. I appreciate the source, man/men or woman/women, but I know the real source up underneath it all, it’s Him, not man. AND…it is liberating, very liberating!! A bit lonely at first until it becomes a way of life, but then, satisfying.

      “One who has unreliable friends soon comes to ruin, but there is a friend who sticks closer than a brother.” ~ Proverbs 18:24 New International Version

      Liked by 1 person

  2. professorGBFMtm2021 says:

    Jack,this is my fave post in this series! This is how a interaction with a woman,her family&polite soceity usualy goes with a bold egg-shell smashing man like myself!

    She forgot the picnic basket!So we had to later stop at a publix store on the way to the picnic spot!
    Now see why you must be bold&a true romantic like myself for all da women in your life!?

    Like

  3. professorGBFMtm2021 says:

    Heres why MANOWAR is dabest tradional male power- metal band!
    !https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTq00jfwtE8
    Heres the 3rd member of the GBFM&DAL’ MANUP CLUB!

    Heres the FEMINAZIS at the view hating on him!

    Liked by 1 person

  4. Liz says:

    Hanging with Mi describes how women can restrain themselves from their own relationship destroying habits. These habits allow a man to come out of his shell and experience humility, peace, and joy in the relationship.

    Never heard of this girl, but this was a really good video. I’d “cosign” all of that.
    The one portion “don’t compare your relationship” I think can apply online also.
    Comparison can lead to discontentment.
    And when she says, “who knows what it took to get there?”…so true.
    One of the frustrations in conveying details online…people put their own experiences into the details of others. I can’t bottle up almost 30 years into a succinct statement or statements. I’ve called it battle testing. If you’ve been battle tested again and again your relationship comes out better, but it’s not necessarily something others can duplicate without the same experience.
    So in that vein the topic of “weakness” is difficult. I’m a person who goes to bed at nine if I can. Last night I got up at one and spoke to Mike on the phone for an hour from one until two in the morning to make sure he didn’t fall asleep on the drive home. I worry about him, and like to help. I don’t think he is some invulnerable being. We’ve both made mistakes in our life together. And yes, I’m sexually attracted to my husband but that is a really gross simplification of what our life together has been about.

    Liked by 3 people

    • Elspeth says:

      Comparison can lead to discontentment.
      And when she says, “who knows what it took to get there?”…so true.
      One of the frustrations in conveying details online…people put their own experiences into the details of others. I can’t bottle up almost 30 years into a succinct statement or statements. I’ve called it battle testing. If you’ve been battle tested again and again your relationship comes out better, but it’s not necessarily something others can duplicate without the same experience.

      All of this, Liz, x 100!

      It never fails to occur to me that an online discussion is necessarily one-dimensional.None of it takes into account the journey. None of it takes into account personalities and temperaments, etc. There’s things between the two people that no one else knows and appreciates.

      It’s so much more than the sex. Sex, no matter how spectacular, cannot keep a couple together through the testing that the battles of life bring. I absolutely believe it serves as a type of oil that greases the skids of hard times, but it’s not the sum total of why a wife is loyal, loving, and faithful.

      To be honest, I’d hope only a young wife would need that advice that “Mi” offered in her video. It’s common sense.

      Liked by 3 people

  5. thedeti says:

    An excellent example of this is the famous interview with Flex Lewis in which he talks about his pain and suffering in his efforts to win a championship, while the two female reporters are totally $h!t faced with visceral desire for him.

    The woman holding the microphone is the reporter. The woman in the pink dress is his girlfriend.

    We all watched this for the reporter’s reactions. You can practically hear the puddle forming under her during the interview.

    Liked by 1 person

    • thedeti says:

      But, oh yeah, tell me again how “women don’t like muscles”. Tell me again how women love dad bods. Tell me more about how women just want a little definition and low body fat. Tell me more about how “women think muscles are gross.”

      uh huh. Sure. RIIIIGHT.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Liz says:

        Women who are “into” the super jacked look are into it. The interviewer would certainly be into it, it’s her biz. The wife is going to be into it…and likely a body builder type herself (that tends to happen). People who aren’t body builders aren’t as into it. Let’s leave out excluded middle fallacy land where it’s all super big jacked muscles or nothing. Yes, women like muscles.

        Like

      • professorGBFMtm2021 says:

        Wimminz only realy love the love muscle like alice cooper said in his early days,right DETI?They love vigourous workouts too!!

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        Martie Hazelton has shown research on this. Women like muscles but not too much – yeah i’m sure there’s women who like jacked but it’s not the preferred type.

        Liked by 3 people

      • professorGBFMtm2021 says:

        Hey,DETI!DAL’&GBFM MANUP CLUB proudly presents GIRLSMIRIN for delicate womens like rachel!!!

        This one is me&DAL’ at the local gyms in dallas-fort worth talking to womens!!

        Heres more delicate shy wimmins fainting over us ripped&sensitive dudes!!!

        Even sodomiting ellen DEGENERATE got hot over one shy guy sensitive dude in this one!
        This is what us male 9&10s go through everyday with shy delicate wimminz!!!

        Liked by 1 person

  6. lastmod says:

    Well..those female reporters interviewing that very, very exceptional fighter…..yeah…all the men in the ‘sphere (secular and sacred) look like this, I forgot everyone here is in the top percentile…..its men like me who are “ruining” it for everyone 😉

    Liked by 1 person

    • professorGBFMtm2021 says:

      Jason I look like lemmy&john lennon& with a little elbow grease& confidant toughness any man can reach the top 1% easily!😎😉
      Just think positive like tony robison use to say before he got caught ”forcing”innocent wimminz even though he gets all dawomen,right?
      Can you imagine the MANosphere without you&I jason?😎
      It would be just boring 1%betas&alphas,instead of cool rebel outsiders,right?
      Heres other cool rebel outsiders on eds big show in the ’60’s

      This is tommys high point,before he got persuaded by crystals!😉

      Liked by 1 person

    • professorGBFMtm2021 says:

      DETI,yeah but the guitar in crimson&clover is so boss&cool to be ignored by daladies that we all hunger for 24/7,right?Sometimes they fall aslep with all the blissfulness of blue crystals being ”pushed” on them all the time!

      Like

  7. Liz says:

    I would love to see an all female (anonymous) poll of what percentage of women find men who are that super-jacked attractive.
    (it will be higher than a Jimmy Stewart body type, if one isn’t actually Jimmy Stewart, but I suspect it would be lower than most men suspect)

    Liked by 2 people

    • professorGBFMtm2021 says:

      LIZ theres been studies how women perfer bruce lee- type builds to the super jacked incredible hulk in toons&comics!!But I have never needed any of these add-ons as I have always had girly attention since age 4!
      But most men of the last 35 years have never experienced the IOIS I received in one day with the kind to me&in general nurses at the hospitol&phys rehab in all their lives!But again this is with the restrainsts on sex removed from soceity&marriage that has made the huge gulf between men like I&scott&most other men possible like DETI has always said too!!

      Liked by 2 people

    • Jack says:

      I wouldn’t trust a poll, because it’s based on what women say. To get the true answer, you’d have to take her to a body building competition and ask her to hold the guy’s towel and oil while he’s pumping the iron. Let’s see her reaction then!

      Liked by 2 people

      • Liz says:

        I think there was a science experiment where they found out women were attracted to baboons having sex, and all that. They were least attracted in this experiment (if memory serves) to a body builder walking alone on the beach.

        Like

      • thedeti says:

        beat me to it.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Liz says:

        They had probes attached to their hoo hoos to measure arousal, kinda hard to lie about that one.

        Like

      • thedeti says:

        I think there was a science experiment where they found out women were attracted to baboons having sex, and all that.

        No, women were not attracted to baboons having sex; they were sexually aroused by seeing video of baboons having sex. The reason being they were just sexually aroused by seeing mammals having sex. They were less sexually aroused by video of a body builder alone.

        Keep in mind:

        The participants KNEW they were experiment subjects. They KNEW they were being watched.

        The participants weren’t actually in the same room as baboons having sex.

        The participants were not standing right next to a bodybuilder alone.

        The participants did not have the opportunity to compare a body builder to a less muscular or less fit man, or be in both such men’s presence simultaneously.

        Liked by 2 people

      • professorGBFMtm2021 says:

        But that could stirr up forbidden lust in delicate virgin wimminz jack!!

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        @liz, I’ll have you know the correct terminology is “hoo haas” not hoo hoos. Or Vajayjays.

        Liked by 3 people

    • thedeti says:

      A more accurate response would be to gather a random sample of women and put them one by one near jacked ripped men like that, without them knowing they’re being watched. What, I’m gonna believe what women SAY about this? Hell no. I’ll believe what I SEE women ACTUALLY DO.

      Liked by 2 people

      • professorGBFMtm2021 says:

        Most of those wimminz were facinated by male sodomites having sex too just like wimminz love lesbian porn!Why is this kept secret by the MSM&churchians!?
        Any thoughts DETI?

        Liked by 1 person

  8. Elspeth says:

    Jacked up body builders are a “type” but I wouldn’t say they are universally preferred. I’d argue many women would prefer this guy:

    https://i.pinimg.com/236x/f4/77/58/f477585900b7e9904f67e4d77bbc9aa6.jpg?b=t

    Over that super jacked up body building champion. The issue is that the guy in the interview is most often contrasted with a far men who are typically far less fit. And also, those two women clearly have an innate preference for body builders.

    Liked by 2 people

    • cameron232 says:

      Studies have shown that women prefer muscular men but less muscular than most men assume. The bodybuilder look isn’t the preferred type for many women.

      Liked by 2 people

    • Liz says:

      I recognize the super-jacked guy has worked very hard to develop that look. I can appreciate the hard work and dedication, but I don’t find the over-jacked look attractive in general. Not compared to a more MMA build (which I only started to notice because Mike and the boys have gotten into MMA). Strangely, just this morning Joe Rogan did a plug for their instructor in BJJ, said he was the best in the country.

      Liked by 2 people

    • Liz says:

      Our boys have really large builds an build muscle mass freakishly quickly. They got that from me, not Mike. He worked hard and took 20 years to get even half of that. I prefer his build, but I’d like to believe women are more attracted to the other type (I want to be a grandmother).

      Like

      • Lastmod says:

        I was on the alpine ski team in college, in the college swimming pool three nights a week for three hours treading water, laps…..this was before the snow fell and we could actually practice. Usually by late October we were on the slopes (Killington / Pico). From August to October those fours years I was in the pool. What did all this swimming get me? Eh…some mild definition. My team mates razzed me a bit over it……our coach, who actually was a real top-tier skier back in the 1960’s…..and had this gentle “ethos” about him. He told me “Some men, and you are one of these men……all the swimming, weight training in the world will not bulk you up…blame your parents” he said with a smile. “Don’t worry about these other guys, you’re a good skier, and the time on the slope is what matters to me, not if you’re bulking up….your cadrio is much better than these guys for sure. You should be a runner.”

        Even my dad in his prime (well over 6’5″) slender, worked construction daily…..heavy lifting, hammer in hand…..pouring concrete in the rain. Millwright, carpenter………was never a bulked out man. Sure, definition, and he was solid…but as for muscles…never really any…light definition.

        Though in my weight class for alpine, I was like a light plastic sled…….get that wind behind me…bam! This mattered for east coast alpine and racing because we ski on packed ice 🙂

        So I see what you are saying. I hike and backpack a lot. Even hauling a 65lb pack in the mountains above 8,000 feet doesn’t make my shoulders broad

        Liked by 3 people

    • Liz says:

      I should add, just genetics of my side of the family…I don’t have a ripped body, but I build super fast and it’s the reason I do yoga and run, and don’t cycle or do a lot of weights. I’ve had this conversation in the sphere many times. A lot of weight isn’t good for me, power lifting would make me look very muscular very fast (for a woman). Even without a lot of T.

      Like

    • thedeti says:

      The point is that women are just flat out lying when they say they don’t like muscles or say they think muscles are gross, or say they much prefer Seth Rogen’s fatboy bod or the usual dadbod to fit, muscle defined men.

      Liked by 2 people

      • lastmod says:

        Again…you’re making into “a man must be this way, or the other”

        Of course women are going to preen and hew over a guy who has muscles…..but comparing that to the other extreme of Seth Rogan is really not cool. “You must either be like this, or you’re Seth Rogan” stages the whole convo and skewers it. Of course women are going to choose the other over Seth Rogan (have no idea who he is btw, until I looked at pictures)

        Liked by 1 person

    • Liz says:

      The point is that women are just flat out lying when they say they don’t like muscles or say they think muscles are gross, or say they much prefer Seth Rogen’s fatboy bod or the usual dadbod to fit, muscle defined men.

      Do women really say they prefer a Seth Rogen fat bod to an athletic body?
      I think most people know that isn’t true. I will say I do think over muscled physiques, especially with the thong thing on….it’s not appealing to me. Not at all.

      Like

      • cameron232 says:

        Yes, some women do say this Liz and it is a smokescreen. If they prefer dadbod it’s only because A. hubby with a hot body makes out of shape wifey look bad by comparison. B. she figures hot body makes him more likely to get taken by another woman – dad bod make this less likely to cheat

        Ok here’s my best guess on the bodybuilder thing. A lot of women don’t prefer the single digit bodyfat look. It’s not natural to have single digit bodyfat. When you find it on a guy with big muscles it looks like a muscular man who’s starving to death. When you find it on a guy with small muscles it looks like a crackhead. The type that Elspeth linked to is the MMA type – probably preferred by most women and it’s hard for most men to look even like that let alone like an elite bodybuilder.

        There are probably two types of (physical) alphas in the simple way that Nova defines alpha. Peacocks and gorillas. Women probably vary as to which type they are oriented towards.

        http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2007/09/popularity-of-pretty-boys-and-frequency.php

        What level of muscularity aside, the most important pointis that women’s attraction to average guys is low – much lower than an average guy’s attraction to the average woman. Yeah, women pick men for other things but the lack of visceral attraction causes a number of difficulties as Scott has explained many times. The 80/20.

        Liked by 1 person

      • thedeti says:

        When it’s all said and done, Liz, women can say all day long that they don’t like jacked ripped gymrats or the bodybuilder look. They can protest forever that they don’t like it and never have.

        But when you put women in the vicinity of these men, they absolutely disintegrate and start showing unmistakable unfake-able IOIs. I’ve seen it too many times to believe otherwise. I don’t care what anyone says about this. I especially don’t care what women say about this. I have actually seen, in real time, how women respond and react, and it cannot be faked or concealed. So, no, I don’t believe women for one minute when they deny attraction to that look.

        I know what real sexual attraction from a woman to a man looks like, and it has to be seen to be believed. I know that no woman has actually seen what they look like when they’re in the throes of sexual attraction. Well, I have seen it. There’s nothing else like it, it cannot be contrived or concealed, and you know when it’s happening.

        There’s a subreddit called “GirlsMirin”. reddit.com/r/GirlsMirin. It’s full of photos and video clips showing women displaying sheer lust. Go check it out. THAT is what sexual attraction looks like. THAT is what love looks like. THAT is what women do when they want a man.

        I will NEVER EVER believe ANYTHING women say about this. NEVER.

        Liked by 3 people

    • Liz says:

      One could say the same thing about female body builders. Not every man likes that.
      A man saying he doesn’t like a super muscular look on a woman isn’t the same as saying he likes a fat out of shape woman.

      Liked by 2 people

      • cameron232 says:

        Very few men like that. Would assume theuy’re latent homosexuals.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Liz says:

        Quite a few body builders seem to like that look, Cameron.
        Kim Lyons (I posted her here) married a body builder (to me unattractively large muscled, but she obviously likes it) and he obviously likes that too. Lots of men who compete in body building find fellow female body builders attractive.

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        I googled Kim Lyons and it wasn’t what I expected for a female bodybuilder. It was a woman who was too fit for my personal taste. Too low bodyfat, more muscle than I prefer. But not what I think of when I think of female bodybuilder. I think of the (now deceased) female pro wrestler “Chyna”) or the woman in the 80’s David Lee Roth version of “California Girls.” I don’t know if that’s a female bodybuilder or a fitness model.

        Sure there are very fit women with tight butts and (generally fake) really large perfectly round boobs. Yeah I can believe plenty of dudes would be attracted to that – most guys would hit that as the PUAs would say.

        Like

    • cameron232 says:

      An elite bodybuilder is the top 0.00001% or whatever. The guy Elspeth posted is not as elite but is way above the 80th percentile.

      The problem isn’t that all women want a guy who’s top 0.00001% it’s that they don’t want 80% of men.

      Like

  9. Elspeth says:

    One of Jack’s points:

    Alpha’s are exceptionally good at covering their weaknesses, and/or recasting/transforming their weaknesses into strengths. Some women will be blinded by the Alpha-ness, and only see a man who has a resilient ego and is impervious to weakness. Women may choose to be content with this impression and consider this to be sufficient for their hypergamous ego needs.

    I would add a caveat to that, since it sounds a lot like a summation of the conversation deti and I had.

    This is true if, and only if, this recasting/transforming yada yada yada comes with results. Results speak for themselves, and prove that one’s man’s “recasting” is another man’s “getting [stuff] done.” The two things are not equivalent.

    If my husband’s confidence and ability to overcome obstacles was only a function of words and attitude, but never resulted in a victory, then what good would it be? It would be little more than irrational confidence and self-delusion on his part with a heaping dose of Pollyanna from me to make it all better while the kids went without shoes and we ate rice and beans all year long.

    There is a sort of feedback loop that takes place when we internalize certain things about ourselves, and I think this is more true for men than women because women are much more capable of chameleon-like living than men are.

    That internal setting makes a big difference in how he processes relationships, challenges, and setbacks. That’s what I think based on what I have seen of the two most influential men in my life, who both skewed highly confident and competent both in life and relationships.

    Liked by 1 person

    • elspeth says:

      Addendum to the preceding thought:

      There are plenty of men around who fit that bill: Talk a good game, silver tongued, but no real accomplishments: No money, no steady career trajectory, largely wife dependent, etc. I can promise you that no amount of his attempts to recast anything serves the hypergamous needs of a wife who is carrying a big bulk of the family load.

      We know a young couple with two young children. Youngest child was always -still is, actually- getting sick in daycare. Wife figured maybe they needed to rethink the whole daycare thing. Husband is tall, fit, good looking guy. Not the most personable, but he doesn’t come off like a timid dude at all. He wasn’t willing to take on the “risk” of living on the one income just for a year in the interest of the child’s health. He insisted the wife stay on full time, not even part time. It would’ve meant fewer toys, but yeah, they could made it work.

      My husband eventually had to tell her when she was in our house for a birthday party, “Your attitude towards your husband seeps out every time you reference him. It’s disrespectful. I’m telling you this because you’re a nice girl. You need to stop that.”

      Liked by 2 people

      • thedeti says:

        But at the end of the day:

        The accomplished, decent, good natured man loses and gets raked over the coals and divorce raped, disrespected, ridiculed, and made fun of. In addition to that, people like James Dobson and Dennis Rainey and twice divorced thrice married Steve Arterburn kick him around, make fun of him, and verbally thrash him to “be better”.

        This man: “talks a good game, silver tongued, but no real accomplishments: No money, no steady career trajectory, largely wife dependent, etc.” wins – he stays married, everyone loves him, and he makes it.

        Like

      • thedeti says:

        My husband eventually had to tell her when she was in our house for a birthday party, “Your attitude towards your husband seeps out every time you reference him. It’s disrespectful. I’m telling you this because you’re a nice girl. You need to stop that.”

        Most men saying anything like that to a woman would get women throwing drinks in their faces and white knights threatening them physically, and later ostracized, marginalized, and demonized – and that would be the response of the churchgoers.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Elspeth says:

        This man: “talks a good game, silver tongued, but no real accomplishments: No money, no steady career trajectory, largely wife dependent, etc.” wins – he stays married, everyone loves him, and he makes it.

        I don’t think that’s always true, or even mostly true. Does it happen? Sure. But everyone can see that that man is weak.

        Like

      • professorGBFMtm2021 says:

        This good natured fellow is the fourth member(Count them four main MAN members of the redpill MANUP CLUB!!!) of the DAL’&GBFM MANUP CLUB!!!

        Hesa just like me a very ”nice”&motivating MAN that challenges
        All unmanly churchians to do better for dawimminz&children&soceity!!!

        Liked by 1 person

      • elspeth says:

        Also, deti, I was making a clear distinction between two terms that Jack conflated which I would categorize as mutually exclusive.

        To recast weakness or setback is one thing. To transform a setback into a successful opportunity or venture is another. The former is about selling perceptions and imagery. The latter is about (to borrow from my man again), “getting [stuff] done”. That latter trait, upon further contemplation, is that thing that made me answer in the negative when you asked me about weaknesses and setbacks. My husband has that internal compass I was telling you about.

        He has a friend who recently changed jobs, and that was hard enough for him to do. He knew he needed to, even though he scared to death he did it. Nevertheless, he lacked the confidence that he could do a good job, and expressed a fair amount of anxiety about the switch.

        SAM was incredulous. He knows this man’s industry well. He knows how smart he is and what he can contribute. He knows there is no reason why he shouldn’t excel, and he firmly believed this man could have negotiated for a better package than he settled for. He encouraged his friend (I know because his wife told me about it), and it helped him feel a little more at ease.

        But that’s the internal compass thing I was referring to. It’s not that he doesn’t experience setbacks and challenges. It’s that he looks at them and sees opportunity. Something better MUST be waiting around the corner, so he sets off to go find it, slicing through the brush (whatever that brush looks like, until he gets to it.

        Feedback loop, self-fulfilling prophecy, whatever you want to call it. But it’s a different thing from snake oil salesmen who somehow seem to make it. I’ve yet to see one stay married though. They’re never lonely, and they attract attractive women, but I’ve only known one who stayed married.

        Liked by 2 people

      • thedeti says:

        The former is about selling perceptions and imagery. The latter is about (to borrow from my man again), “getting [stuff] done”.

        Both guys make it.

        The honest decent man gets crapped on.

        Like

      • Jack says:

        Deti,

        “The honest decent man gets crapped on.”

        You’re talking about those men who are invisible to women, so I don’t imagine you’ll get much traction with women by using this argument, no matter how true it is.

        Liked by 1 person

      • thedeti says:

        Another thing is that you’ve never actually experienced this as a man; you’ve only watched other men go through it either close up or from afar.

        Liked by 1 person

  10. What a great job/opportunity that reporter chick has. She literally waits at the finish line and then gets to put herself right in front of the winner.

    Liked by 2 people

    • cameron232 says:

      If you’re a pretty woman, that’s your prerogative I guess. Wait for the two bull elk to bash each other up and grab the winner. We’re a tournament species.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Liz says:

        Bitch needs to back off, married dude coming through.
        That’s a married dude, pick another, bitch!

        Liked by 2 people

      • cameron232 says:

        You sound like my wife, Liz. She thinks every other woman is out to get me from her. The few times when she was clearly right she actually confronted the woman. One of them – well she and her friend talked about throwing sh_tty baby diapers on the woman’s front porch.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Jack says:

        In response to cameron’s comment…
        Some women are extremely jealous and possessive, and this almost always has a detrimental effect on the relationship. Judging by those I have seen, it seems to me that their jealousy is not well justified and seems to be a weakness in their character. I have a theory that women who are like this either had (1) a father who didn’t give them very much attention, and/or (2) a past lover who ran around on them.

        Liked by 3 people

      • cameron232 says:

        The “every other woman” is an exaggeration but this has come up in our life. E.g. she thinks the neighbor woman across the street wants me. The reality is there are a lot of women out there on the prowl for a man and the preselection thing – they frequently want another woman’s man. You’re right about one thing – she didn’t’ have a father at all.

        We had an incident early in our relationship when I was in college where I was hanging out with another girl – I mean hanging out – I didn’t bang her – our first real fight and maybe responsible for this problem too. Depending on your definition – I “cheated” – some women don’t think you have to have sex to “cheat.” This has come up more than once – “I would rather that you had f_cked her!”

        It’s ridiculous from my perspective because I’m as beta as they come – constitutionally incapable of cheating.

        Liked by 1 person

      • professorGBFMtm2021 says:

        Cameron&jack remember my first girl?She was only age 6&did’nt like her mom coming up to me just one-time!She could’nt have her father to herself so she was definitely going to keep me for herself!I don’t think she learned this behavior from any women at age 6,right?This is innate like how eve was when she heard she might not be getting her full amount that she knew was hers in genesis too!!I still love my first girl 3&half decades later!Thats how I can better understand gods love for his wayward children!

        Liked by 1 person

      • Liz says:

        Some women are extremely jealous and possessive, and this almost always has a detrimental effect on the relationship. Judging by those I have seen, it seems to me that their jealousy is not well justified and seems to be a weakness in their character.

        Hyperactive jealousy seldom works out well, whether “justified” or no.
        Often folks are projecting (I’ve seen this a lot).
        And if they’re right about their suspicions, it’s unlikely to help.

        Side note (maybe tangentially related), one of the drawbacks through the years of living in hurricane zones was…the pilots left with the aircraft and their families had to evacuate along (and board up the home, and all that). When we had wee ones, it was quite difficult for me. And Mike said if he ever had the opportunity this is something he would change. He’d evacuate the jets of course, but then offer the pilots airlift home to help the families. Well…eventually he was able to do that.
        What he didn’t foresee was, some pilots didn’t want to go back and help. They’d rather drink and gamble, etc, in Las Vegas while their families faced the storm alone. Now…as one might imagine, that’s not the story they told their families. They told them the boss made them leave, and it was all out of their control, yada yada. Led to some problems when the wives would call me. I didn’t know what to say.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        I watched the video Liz. The blond interviewing the bodybuilder is considerably prettier than his wife – I would agree that she should have a back off attitude.

        Liked by 1 person

    • Lastmod says:

      EH……all these women in “sports broadcasting” who get “lockerr oom interviews” and the like just got the job because they are “cute” and studied “communications” or “english” in college.

      Today in football, end of a hard game….cute female field reporter asks “How do you feeeeel??” and always the heartfelt story behind the athlete of how he “overcame” and all that. The montage of him with his kids, his girlfriend…..interviews with his mom…..

      Back in the 1970’s you had Howard Cosell, some real sports journalism and reporting. Knew the facts, the stats, and wasn’t afraid to ask questions.

      Tough quarterback, had the snot beat out of him the whole game. They lost. They are tired. It was rough. It’s over…..her comes Cosell with the microphone to the quarterback

      “Hey, you guys looked terrible out there. How do you expect to win football games with a team full of bozos like this?”

      Times have changed.

      Went to see Kenny Rogers in concert in the early 1990’s. Okay…not a coutry-op fan, but my parents had the tickets. Like some of his big hits……

      Ol Kenny comes out in his white “Colonel Sanders” suit with a bootlace tie sing “Ruby” and then sings “Ruben James” and then…..three big screens come down. He shows pictures of his farm, his kids, his grandkids, his horses, his wife…the farm, his animals…..picnics……

      This went on for an hour, he then sang “Coward of The County” did zero encores and that was it. The dumb audience after “oh, it was such a great concert” (even my parents enjoyed it). He didn’t even sing “The Gambler” and he wasted everyones money for four songs.

      Exactly like femme sports journalism today. Half the men watching will think its a great interview and the otehr half are wishing their wife looked like the reporter….

      Liked by 4 people

  11. Scott says:

    Most of the guys at the gym who are huge and ripped seem like they have no people skills.

    I’m married, so I don’t care. But I feel like I could walk right past any of them and start talking to the hot girl that everyone is staring at without much trouble.

    Liked by 2 people

    • thedeti says:

      I dunno. Most of the men I’ve met at the gym you’d think would be complete jerks. But the jacked gymrats I’ve been around are some of the friendliest most affable guys I’ve ever met. Personable, conversational, and will do anything for you.

      Liked by 4 people

    • feeriker says:

      Most of the women at the gym (the younger ones, anyway) make it clear that they’re there to attract male attention. Ignore them and act as business-like and regimen focused as possible and you can literally almost smell the rage.

      Liked by 1 person

  12. Regarding looks it’s a range. Let’s say these are an approximation of all the body types:

    Anorexic
    Skinny-fat
    Skinny
    Normal
    Slim ripped (swimmer body type / climber)
    Athletic muscular (track and field)
    Athletic jacked (crossfit, gymnastics, etc)
    Bear type bodytype (some fat but obviously very muscular)
    Bodybuilder level

    Most women prefer 6-7, but they wouldn’t kick 5-9 out of bed.

    Typically, when we see women talking about something we must take in context what range they are in to evaluate her claims.

    For instance, it depends on how athletic/muscular she is too. If she’s 6-7 herself, she probably prefers 6-9 but at the very least more than her in those situations. 6 woman swimmer might prefer another 6 swimmer but usually only if he’s more muscular (which men tend to be at the same level, and especially if he’s more successful in competitions).

    Additionally, women who are in the 1-3 range themselves may say they don’t prefer something like 7-9, but that’s cause they think it’s out of their league just like some men think some women are out of their league if they’re very attractive and the man is below average or average.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Scott says:

      I’ve never looked at any woman and thought “out of my league”

      But I went out with the “one that everyone wanted” a couple times in high school and learned very quickly that those are the highest maintenance ones on earth to keep happy. I was exhausted and neurotic after 4 months of dating that crap.

      Drop down to strong 7’s weak 8’s and you are in the sweet spot. Perfectly cute, and easy to make happy.

      Like

      • @ Scott

        I’ve occasionally met women where I flinched that their perceived beauty. Not sure why that was the case, but you can condition yourself out of that.

        A lot of my friends who were more on the unattractive scale like I was in high school definitely acknowledged the “out of my league” statement, so I guess that’s where our experience diverges there. If you’ve always been on the more attractive side of things I wouldn’t think you would think that you’ve had those types of moments. I personally haven’t believed the “out of my league” statement either in the sense that I thought a girl was out of my league, but I have acknowledged that to at least tick her hypergamy I’d probably have to be much richer, attractive, confident, etc. Not likely worth the time to invest in those circumstances when there are better things to do with it.

        Also, my numbers were talking about the arbitrary list I created with the anorexic to bodybuilder and not actually 1-10 scale that you were referring to.

        Like

  13. professorGBFMtm2021 says:

    Scott&DS the real problem is most men are so demoralized that they will say why bother with anything like muscles&people skillz!Most mens&womens for some reason in RL seem intimadited by my 6’3”&215lps frame&once they here me talk they usualy become more shy around me,why?
    I just am being my natural aloofself like popeye!
    Womens are scared to approach/sexup anyman they like?Is that why they happily attack cops&judges today?

    Like

  14. Lastmod says:

    This whole numbers thing is so outt a line. To me an 8 is someone else’s 5 or 4. And I am sure that is the other way around. Indeed if this is a scale……most people in their prime will indeed fall into the 4-6 range. Most. The outliers are the very attractive or just very ugly. But God is a just God…he just happened to make a few very attractive, most average and many a plenty just ugly….

    Never knew so many women were in the 8-10 in looks. Didn’t know this many women existed.

    Had a serious tackle of my looks. The Age Pill is brutal. I was rated about a 2. I thought i was a 3. In my prime…with a nice head of hair? Maybe a 4.

    Like

    • Scott says:

      But God is a just God…he just happened to make a few very attractive, most average and many a plenty just ugly….

      This is called a normal distribution, and it applies to every dimension there is. Looks, income, height, intelligence, charm, etc.

      Once you study statistics and internalize what this truth means, it is hard to stay faithful, I agree.

      Like

      • cameron232 says:

        To geek out, this is the result of many traits being highly polygenic and having approximately the same level of effect. The normal distribution and the log-normal are two very common distributions in nature.

        It just means God doesn’t weight the already ancestrally weighted (through decisions your ancestors made) toss of the dice that happens when you mate with someone.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        The genes behind the trait having approximately the same average level of effect on phenotype. Gaussian is a consequence of this.

        I need to read my comments before I type.

        Like

      • Scott says:

        Cameron.

        Beautiful, charming, motivated intelligent people mating to make more beautiful, charming, motivated intelligent people.

        It’s science and math. N stuff.

        Liked by 2 people

    • cameron232 says:

      DS and Scott just used numbers in a different way. DS was listing body types and assigning them an number – not necessarily in rank order of attractiveness. Scott was using numbers in rank order of attractiveness. Just thought I’d point out as the discussion progresses.

      Nova discusses the ranking system in terms of a gaussian distribution and will tell you 9-10s are very rare.

      Like

      • Scott says:

        LIke I said, normal distribution. The tails have almost no one in them. Most people are 3-6s

        Its just the way the world works.

        Nova adds a very important dimension which for men, turns the continuum into a dichotomy. There is a group that I would do, right down to a theoretical number where that “yes I would” becomes “nope. No matter how drunk, no matter what she is wearing, no matter how great her personality, no matter how strong she is coming on to me, no matter how desperate I am.”

        This is why the attraction equation (as he puts it) is easier to solve for us guys.

        Liked by 2 people

      • thedeti says:

        There is a group that I would do, right down to a theoretical number where that “yes I would” becomes “nope. No matter how drunk, no matter what she is wearing, no matter how great her personality, no matter how strong she is coming on to me, no matter how desperate I am.”

        That level is the “attraction floor”. Every man has one.

        Liked by 3 people

      • cameron232 says:

        Yeah, sorry not correcting you. Normal distribution is strictly speaking the normalized version of the gaussian I think – so you can use standardized Z scores with a mean of 0.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        I just like to use “guassian” because it sounds more technical and geeky.

        @Deti,

        Im sure it’s ultimately related subconsciously to sex but I’d characterize it personally as: do I get twitterpated by that girl – does she give me romantic feelings, butterflies in the stomach, whatever. But yeah, same concept. It’s not (at least at the conscious level) for me a “ would I do her” way of thinking.

        Like

      • Scott says:

        Your mom is Gaussian

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        Ah ha! – my mama’s so old she knew Gauss.

        Like

  15. Lastmod says:

    Cameron, I know what DS is implying……and I know what Scott is implying. This whole thing is for people who just had it from birth. We can blame women all day long about hypergamy….and the other trapping that fall with it….but no woman is going to “be attracted” to a low level guy looks wise because of his great personality, no matter how much he loves “jesus”

    Besides….when a man understands that he isn’t “above average” looks wise, the better off he will be. Yes….I know, he just has to go to the gym, work out and his looks will improve many points. What DS and others don’t understand (because they were never below average) is that you can’t make a guy who is a four or three into an six, or seven…….

    Then again, no women are worth marrying today anyway……right 😉

    After now three weeks living in Pasadena and working in Brentwood (evil commute in the morning btw), its amplified here in the Southland. Way more than Fresno and even more than the pretentious San Francisco Bay.

    My admin, who (in a perfect world) would be about my daughters age if I had one. Very pretty must be 23-24. Other women I work with are def pretty. No one is overweight here at this office. Most of us are in our forties / early fifties. No one has given me IOI’s or asked about my personal / dating life (they just know…”he doesn’t have one” and it has not been brought up…thankfully!). No one has offered about a “friend” they have they would want to set me up with. Nor will they. I know where I stand in this world on this scale…..the lower end.

    I was invited to lunch on Monday, and we went out for sushi. It was decent, and there was baseball talk, I mentioned I was a SF Giants fan (big social faux pas to say in the LA area). These are co-workers. Friendly enough people…..work gets done, I don’t see any goofing off here. People dress up for work (as they should) and that’s all it should be. It’s work.

    Liked by 3 people

    • cameron232 says:

      Glad the new job seems to be working out lastmod.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Lastmod says:

        Going well. I have an office with a window. 5th floor. It looks down on the main strip through here. I get my own parking space. The pay is very good (though I could’ve pushed for more…in time grasshopper 😉 ). I love living in Pasadena, this is a beautiful town. The streets are clean. Its quiet at night. The food / restaurant scene is excellent. It fits my age now. I could’ve moved to a hipper area of LA I am sure with more of a nightlife…but this works very well for me. Fits my age.

        Been bumping LA’s own ‘champagne soul’ pop group lately. Fits the mood, the sky, and design of this whole area…track from 1968

        Liked by 2 people

    • Joe2 says:

      “No one has given me IOI’s or asked about my personal / dating life (they just know…”he doesn’t have one” and it has not been brought up…thankfully!).”

      Not necessarily.

      They may be more concerned about potential sexual harassment or some type of discrimination charges being filed if they began to explore your personal / dating life.

      Liked by 1 person

  16. cameron232 says:

    20 years with my company still in a cubical no parking space.

    Single mom got promoted I didn’t she whined that she deserved it because she’s a single mom so her time is valluable

    Liked by 1 person

    • lastmod says:

      Hey……just over three years ago I was mopping floors. One guy I met at a Starbucks in Fresno just started talking to me. He saw potential where most people assumed failure.

      I was cut for better work, but I had been beat down by men mostly, in the church and I wasted ten years of “its all in god’s timing” while the rest of the world moved on, and the ones telling me about “waiting on god” for some reason didn’t think THEY had to wait. In some regards, the christian faith matches the Indian Caste System. Keeps you in your place and MAYBE you will be rewarded in your next life.

      I had the skills for this type of work….I didn’t deserve, but trying to climb up in your forties is freaking hard, esp if you “blew it” when you were younger. I don’t aplogize for my career. They gave a chance, and I delivered. Exceptionally. Hence why i am here now.

      I am dumb as rocks compared to you all. The only thing I do have is a tidy work ethic that can run circles around people….but if you are not having sex, getting IOI’s and being called “a leader” and “amazing” all day, perhaps that is why I fell on my work ethic….because it was the only thing I had. Who knows.

      Liked by 5 people

      • thedeti says:

        This is wonderful, Jason.

        believe it or not, no one here begrudges you anything. No one here wants anything but the best for you. For my part, I rejoice a little that you’ve experienced success.

        All my best. I mean that.

        Liked by 5 people

      • professorGBFMtm2021 says:

        Jason you know I don’t msake a big deal about IOIS or anything else!My life is a old comfortable suit so why would it be a big deal to myself?Who says your dumb?You have held your own with the best of the best of this sphere for 5 years or so& someone could easily call you dumb?

        Liked by 1 person

      • feeriker says:

        “I was cut for better work, but I had been beat down by men mostly, in the church and I wasted ten years of “its all in god’s timing” while the rest of the world moved on, and the ones telling me about “waiting on god”, for some reason, didn’t think THEY had to wait. In some regards, the christian faith matches the Indian Caste System. Keeps you in your place and MAYBE you will be rewarded in your next life.”

        I generally share your perception of church(ian) men. As far as most of them are concerned, if you’re not one of the “jocks” (i.e., praise group leader, pastor, pastor’s pet “piss boy” from among the elders) you basically don’t exist except for when they need to pick your pocket or need a body for some kind of scut work. It’s a weird amalgamation of the Hindu Caste System and American high school.

        The beautiful thing about your situation is that just by living the life you’re now living, you’ve exposed them for the fraudulent fools they are and always have been. It’s like a permanent middle finger raised in their faces. I sincerely hope at least a few of them are aware of how far you’ve risen.

        Liked by 4 people

    • feeriker says:

      Single mom got promoted I didn’t she whined that she deserved it because she’s a single mom so her time is valluable

      One of the reasons Corporate America is so toxic and dysfunctional.

      Liked by 3 people

  17. elspeth says:

    Gonna do a combo comment before I have to check out.

    Deti almost had me on that “girlsmirin” thing until I saw Kamala Harris tucked in there. Maybe she’s smitten with Dougie, but she has never struck me as being genuine ever, especially if she knows there’s a camera anywhere in the vicinity.
    On the muscle thing. Girls like muscles, but not all girls like the same kinds of things. A couple of those ‘mirin girls were looking at men who were clearly not muscular. Not talking about the adorable old couples that melted my heart, 🙂
    My husband isn’t muscular anymore. Well, he has very broad shoulders and really nice arms, but he looks a lot like Will Smith did when he released https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-cynical-truth-behind-will-smiths-quarantine-bod-reveal and declared he was going to get back in shape, except my guy is probably 15 pounds heavier than Will was in that pic. He is currently tightening things back up, and my guy has naturally broad shoulders no matter what shape he is in, which is nice. I still think he’s amazing!
    I think most people when young are fairly attractive, as in around 6-8, if they are in decent shape physically, which I know is far from a given these days. Youth is inherently attractive. Out of all our children, I would say only two of them match their dad in terms of raw attractiveness. The others are certainly cute, because they have a mom who was cute, but the “You could be a model” looks are only possessed by two despite their dad having model good looks. A large part of what we look like is dependent on what we do with our raw materials. That’s s hard pill to swallow, so most people overplay the genes card. Not that genes are irrelevant (they aren’t), but still. We have a role to play here.
    You’re right deti. I don’t know what it’s like to view this stuff from a masculine vantage point. I can’t. Like you, when you analyze women whom you cannot fully understand, I judge by what I see.

    Liked by 2 people

    • elspeth says:

      jack:

      Why can I not number my points in your combox???? It always looks as if I don’t know how to insert proper paragraphs, and I never remember this quirk until after I hit ‘reply’.

      Liked by 1 person

    • thedeti says:

      Most of the girls on r/girlsmirin don’t know they’re being photographed or recorded. Or, they’re aware they’re being photographed or recorded, and have an unguarded moment the camera captures. Remember: a woman’s authentic sexual attraction cannot be faked or concealed. If she is feeling it, she’ll show it. She also cannot contrive it or make it up.

      Kamala Harris is always playing to the camera, even if she doesn’t do so very well.

      I think most people when young are fairly attractive, as in around 6-8, if they are in decent shape physically, which I know is far from a given these days. Youth is inherently attractive

      No. I’ve seen plenty of unattractive young people, and most young people are not above average even if they’re not overweight.

      Liked by 4 people

      • elspeth says:

        I suppose you’re right. Average is…average. But today’s standards of what is attractive are very high. I would argue too high (especially on the part of women but not just women), but I’m not in the market. And neither is my husband, although he has had an interesting month at work. He started at a new company during the pandemic, so no one had seen his face.

        He’s gotten a few, “Wow! Didn’t know you were so handsome!” comments since masks came off this month. Yeah, but you knew he had on a ring…

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        A couple years ago we went to a kids birthday party at chain of lakes. A mom friend of my wife (a black lady actually), somewhat younger than us, told my wife, “Your husband is handsome!” From what I’m being told here, “handsome” sounds like “attractive” and that’s less of a compliment than it sounds like. They say guys women are really attracted to are described as “hot” or “gorgeous”, and “attractive” really means “meh”.

        Like

      • Elspeth says:

        Perhaps, Cameron. May have been innocent niceties.

        SAM has a face that has been complimented his whole life (well since about 14), so I figured it meant what it has usually meant. Not black women though.

        Once a black cashier did tell me point blank, “Your husband is a beautiful black man.”

        I thought it was bold but I thanked her.

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        I think you said he looks like Denzel – to me Denzel is the prototype of a handsome black man – basically the black Brad Pitt.

        Like

      • Elspeth says:

        I dont think he looks like Denzel at all. Some burly dude at a window tinting place said that: “Has anyone ever told you you look like Denzel?”

        No gaydar ping either so it was pretty funny. Every once in a while this happens and I think, “So it isn’t just husband goggles. He really is still far too handsome, even in his 40s”.

        Liked by 2 people

      • thedeti says:

        And neither is my husband, although he has had an interesting month at work. He started at a new company during the pandemic, so no one had seen his face.

        I don’t think you have any idea just how rare it is for a wife to gush so profusely about her husband. It’s rare, because most women just don’t feel the way about their husbands that you feel about yours.

        What you have is rare. Most people don’t have that and will never ever have that.

        Liked by 3 people

      • cameron232 says:

        As rare as an alphabux which is comparatively rare – considerably less than 20% of men since 20% only captures alphaness.

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        In reality, they’re even rarer because it isn’t just SAM’s alphabux. E’s faith makes them an even rarer couple.

        Liked by 2 people

      • thedeti says:

        The point I’m making is that most men and women do not have SAM/Elspeth, Mike/Liz, or Scott/Mychael marriages. Those are extremely, extremely rare. The only way a marriage like that can exist is when the wife has hard, visceral sexual attraction for her husband and it was there from the very first moment she ever saw him.

        I don’t have that kind of a marriage, and I never will, because I know Mrs. d doesn’t feel that way about me, and she never will. I don’t think she’s capable of it. And I don’t know anyone in real life who does have that kind of marriage. .

        Liked by 3 people

      • thedeti says:

        Don’t get me wrong – Mrs. D loves me and cares about me. She does what I ask, mostly, and has calmed way way down to the point that our lives together are much, much more tranquil and productive. We’ve built something durable that I hope will see me through until The Big One finally happens.

        But hard, visceral, “I just HAVE to f ** k you RIGHT NOW” look at me with lust in her eyes? No. That’s never ever been there, and it will never be there. Mrs d just cannot muster it up. I am sure she could for men she met before me. I’ve seen other women express it at me. But Mrs. d. cannot do that for me. It’s not that she won’t. It’s that she can’t.

        Most marriages have always been this way. I’m pretty sure my parents didn’t have that kind of marriage, nor did their parents. The difference is that our culture’s obsession with sex and the power of the internet allow people to talk about this. What is also different is the sheer amount of access women have to premarital sex with men they love having sex with , but can never ever get for commitment.

        Just another day in the gender wars that women long ago won and are now in cleanup mode.

        Just one more condom in the landfill.

        http://freenortherner.com/2013/10/18/one-more-condom-in-the-landfill/

        Liked by 2 people

      • cameron232 says:

        “I am sure she could for men she met before me.”

        Well yeah that knowledge in general is probably why a lot of guys want the wife to behave like a pornstar – the dude presumably wants the validation that Chad got. The whole point of most male oriented porn is that the woman actually wants to have sex with you – she’s not just trading it for betabux.

        Don’t know what to say – most men need to say no hymen no diamond or if that’s not feasible take the PUA pump and dump approach to escape this. Female attraction is more visceral when she sees a new opportunity – as Nova has said. Even lesbos feel attraction for their new dyke (it fades in a year or two) This is why some dudes just move from woman to woman. Variety plus an increase in visceral attraction that comes with a new relationship.

        Course none of that is Christian.

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        There’s a logic (if not Christian morality) in the position that I saw Dalrock describe.

        “You had your fun/turn when your SMP value was high. Now you want the rules to be within-marriage-chastity for men as their SMP increases and yours decreases. Nope, my turn now. I’m the prize now.”

        Course the law is set up to favor them and prevent that.

        Liked by 1 person

      • thedeti says:

        Don’t know what to say

        There’s nothing to say except what you’ve said. It is what it is. Things done, things said, choices made. Too late for me and for a lot of us. I am doing this to help my son avoid writing about his losses in internet comboxes. I’m going out and getting the answers so he won’t have to. I’m doing for my son what my father, my family, and my community could not or would not do for me.

        Liked by 3 people

      • cameron232 says:

        People just need to marry young – especially the woman. We were a rare case of highschool sweethearts finding each other before either of us was experienced daters – we know very few couples who had that situation. Honestly, only one other couple from high school – they’re still together too.

        Yeah I guess I’m mostly here for my sons too – and I think it’s important to understand this stuff if you have daughters as well.

        Liked by 2 people

      • elspeth says:

        Mr. Deti:

        Our life is quiet, content and routine at this point. We have plenty of fun, because SAM simply refuses to live a life without fun or joy in it, but for the most part, we’re just a long married middle aged couple. It’s really nice, but no one is swinging from the chandeliers around here.

        But it wasn’t easy in the early years, and I battled a lot of jealousy and insecurity and all the stuff that could have torn our house down before we’d even laid a foundation. Thankfully, my husband was excellent at setting boundaries (for other people, especially females I mean, not me). Made it easy to set thing on a smooth course, for which we are both grateful.

        I’m sure you understand that at this stage of life, but see Liz’s comments from before. Everything comes with tradeoffs. EV.ER.Y.THING. I would make al the same trades again in a heartbeat, but I know that there are couples who did it differently, and who have really great marriages. I’ve met them.

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        @deti, To be perfectly honest I’m also kinda here supporting the men who got burned even if I didn’t. I 100% believe the guys in the manosphere – their experiences – who would humble himself to describe what happened to him if it weren’t true. You think men WANT to admit this stuff – what was done to them. The guy who showed up here who was assaulted – no man WANTS to talk about that unless it’s really eating at him – who would make that up?

        @Elspeth, Guess im going to defend deti’s side – there’s a trauma that your relationship didn’t experience, deti has seen things he can’t unsee – he has explained the details a bunch of times – the redpill has helped him understand and contextualize what happened to him. But I can see how it’s hard to settle into the quiet, comfortable, middle-age romance that a couple like you & SAM can settle into.

        Liked by 2 people

      • elspeth says:

        People just need to marry young – especially the woman. We were a rare case of highschool sweethearts finding each other before either of us was experienced daters – we know very few couples who had that situation. Honestly, only one other couple from high school – they’re still together too.

        I think a large part of our marriage dynamic is the fact that we married very young, combined with our respective upbringings.

        Times have changed a lot over the past -nearly- 30 years. There are people marrying later for reasons other than frivolity and purposefully delaying marriage. Our culture (and GenX has played a major role in this), has set up a system that makes it nigh impossible to both marry young and be content to start from nothing and build a life together from the ground up. And that’s before you consider the changing economics of the last 30 years, and the exponential increase in corporate corruption and dysfunction of the last 10.

        For instance, and I was talking with a male relative about this yesterday, most young men today who want to do what SAM does are immediately funneled into the college pipeline. He wasn’t, and he’s still done well. There have been times when that particular piece of paper might have been exceedingly useful compared to the credentials he has, but he’s mostly made it on his talent, intellect, competence, and building a stellar reputation. He was making a very solid salary when I met him and he was just shy of 20 when we met.

        Most young men will take a lot longer to get established, and when they do, they want a woman who has some of the same evidence of accomplishment. Nova is the only one around here who will readily acknowledge this for some reason. It’s not as easy for Gen Z to “just get married young” as it was for us.

        Liked by 2 people

      • thedeti says:

        Elspeth

        Thanks for your response. Heartfelt as it was, it did not respond to anything I said to you, nor address the rarity of your marriage, nor address the reasons I identified for that rarity.

        The point is that all those hardships, problems, etc. you mentioned were buoyed, offset, and negated by your hard visceral sexual attraction. When a woman does not have that for her husband, all those marriages run aground on the shoals of said hardships. You were spared that, because of your hard visceral attraction.

        Because when a woman has that for her husband, absolutely nothing else matters.

        THAT is the point.

        Liked by 1 person

      • thedeti says:

        I know that there are couples who did it differently, and who have really great marriages. I’ve met them.

        Appearances are usually deceiving. “Staying married” does not necessarily equate to “great marriage”.

        If they have “great marriages”, they paid much, much higher prices than you did for your near perfect marriage. You got more for less, yes?

        I have a pretty good marriage. But man oh man, have I paid for it. I haven’t even told you the worst of it. I have paid an extremely high price for what I have, primarily for the sake of my children, who should not have to bear their parents’ sins.

        As Cam said – I can’t unsee what I’ve seen, and what I see just doesn’t jibe with the roses and rainbows in your neck of the woods. I’ve got clover and partly cloudy, and I’m damn lucky to have that.

        Liked by 4 people

      • thedeti says:

        I 100% believe the guys in the manosphere – their experiences – who would humble himself to describe what happened to him if it weren’t true. You think men WANT to admit this stuff – what was done to them.

        I’ve often said that everyone is free to disbelieve me if they want. But it would not be in my interests to spend hours a day talking to people with similar experiences, helping them, getting help, and baring my soul and negative experiences just because I made it all up.

        It is completely NOT in my interests to bring my already brought-low life even lower unless I’m telling the truth about my tribulations and embarrassingly cringeworthy moments with the opposite sex. It is NOT in my interests to humiliate myself and hold myself up as a virtual pinata, if I’m not trying to fix something. It will not benefit me to let the girls here do that point and snicker thing they do, unless I’m trying to get answers.

        Liked by 3 people

      • cameron232 says:

        Sex is simply a large part of how men feel loved, desired, appreciated, etc. It just is. Scott has talked to this I think. Men aren’t going to change – that’s how men are – if women don’t accept this they shouldn’t marry men – they can become lesbians. Men don’t owe women marriage. Men shouldn’t and can’t change their nature. Women either accept and love men for how they are or marry another woman.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Elspeth says:

        You got more for less, yes?

        I want to say that’s an unfair characterization, but if we’re looking at objective balance sheets (good years vs years of struggle and toil), then yeah. I suppose that might be a fair assessment. The fun has outweighed any bad times exponentially and almost every hard time was an external pressures rather than any internal relationship issue.

        But we believe we paid our dues like everyone else. We’ve had to work through our stuff like everyone else. This admittedly wonderful relationship didn’t just fall in our laps. We had to choose it. The thing is, we both chose it. We both made serious decisions about how we would behave towards each other. Even when we haven’t behaved perfectly, we quickly look for the ramp back on to the right road. We looked each other and the eye (really!) and said, “This is what we want. This is who we are. We’re on the same page, right?”

        It’s not like we got this for free, but we owe our parent a huge debt for actually teaching us that there is an order that works best. Especially my dad, for showing SAM by example how to strike the right balance.

        Like

      • Liz says:

        It will not benefit me to let the girls here do that point and snicker thing they do, unless I’m trying to get answers.

        Could you provide an example where I have pointed and snickered at you, in your estimation?

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        Deti:

        “You got more for less, yes?”

        Elspeth:

        “I want to say that’s an unfair characterization…”

        I assume his point is something like, “Everything comes a lot easier when the woman gets an attractive man.” If that’s his point, then in general, I think he’s right.

        Liked by 1 person

      • thedeti says:

        “I assume his point is something like, “Everything comes a lot easier when the woman gets an attractive man.” If that’s his point, then in general, I think he’s right.”

        Pretty much.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Elspeth wrote,

        “The fun has outweighed any bad times exponentially and almost every hard time was an external pressures rather than any internal relationship issue.”

        If I may, I’d like to give you a little insight into what it is like when this is not the case. It may help when men like me or Deti get a little direct with our choice of words.

        We fight battles at work and in the world every day. There is pressure, some wins and some losses with the goal that the wins outnumber the losses over time and the impact of the losses is minimized. There are times of immense pressure, which you are aware of.

        But when we get home, there is no peace, only contentiousness, more competition, more scrapping and clawing, not to win something that is up for grabs but to simply try to fulfill your God ordained role as a husband. This goes on for years and it wears on you. There is little recovery because she is never satisfied or happy. There is manipulation, both subtle and overt, and sex most definitely is used as a tool in this. Sex is withheld when she is not happy with you. It is a bargaining chip when she wants something. This grinds on for years and the weariness that results from the constant battle inside and outside the home begins to wear on you professionally, socially and relationally.

        The girl you loved enough for forsake all others is now the impediment to sexual intimacy and is yet another weight for you to carry around. You can not morally have sexual intimacy with anyone else and you know the stats of children of divorce. So leaving is not an option because you love your children too much to sentence them to pain they don’t deserve. Any time you raise the subject with the Mrs. you are met with,

        “You only want me for sex!” (when it’s been months)
        “If you were more successful…” (then maybe she would be more “in the mood”)
        “Do you really think you deserve it???” (which is basically a cut down, followed by another “man up” message)
        “My life is sooo hard, so I’m tooo tired, and if you loved me, then you’d understand.” (hamstering and gaslighting)

        Eventually, your work and other relationships begin to suffer under the crushing weight of your marriage and a downward spiral ensues until you get to the point that you can not, nor will you, take it anymore.

        This is the basis for Deti’s admonition that women need to be cross eyed with sexual desire for their husbands. Because what I just described, or something similar is often what happens when they are not. Mostly it leads to divorce. For a few of us, we break, get up, realize we’ve been lied to about women all our lives and set out to climb the mountain of change both for ourselves and our families. Many men who choose to stay then have to come to grips with the fact that their wives aren’t really attracted to them and make the best of it for their remaining decades.

        In the short time I have read your comments, I do not get the idea that you and SAM are anything like what I have described. By God’s grace your combination of faith, attraction for SAM and his dominant persona have spared you the all too common outcome. I doubt that SAM on a regular basis has to give himself a pep talk to find the will to stay married to you for the next few decades. If that last sentence sounds ridiculous to you, this is why Deti writes that y’all are marriage outliers and says you don’t really understand.

        On to lighter things …. since you are in Florida, and football season is right around the corner are you for FSU, UM or UF. Understand that the wrong answer will reflect poorly on your character.

        Liked by 4 people

      • cameron232 says:

        “You only want me for sex……. If you loved me, you’d understand…”

        Hmmm.

        “You only want me for my paycheck, labor, and free babysitting. I hate that soul crushing job. I gave up my freedom for this? I don’t want to go there. I want to sit on the couch… That’s who I am. I am a nice loving man. Why can’t you love me for who I am?”

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        I admire your faith and commitment to your children. I would have likely cheated probably with her best friend or her sister.

        If a woman isn’t attracted to a man then marriage is probably like monogamous prostitution to them – feels icky to them I imagine.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Elspeth says:

        @RPA:

        Not a college sports ball fan at all. Gators, ‘Noles, ‘Canes, Knights.. Don’t care about any of them.

        Did I pass?

        Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Elspeth – You’ve gone Switzerland. About college football. In Florida. It may take me a while to process this. Maybe Liz can help me out.

        Go Gators!

        Liked by 2 people

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Cameron – I’If a woman isn’t attracted to a man then marriage is probably like monogamous prostitution to them – feels icky to them I imagine.”

        I remember a few years ago she wanted to go on a trip and I was still a couple years from becoming “RPA” which means I was blue pill through and through. I told her that the sexless marriage made me not want to go anywhere with her. She showed some initiative and “sacrificed” for me to 1-2 times a week to make things good enough to go on the trip. After the trip she tried for a little while but soon the motivation waned. Eventually, she would not even look at her husband during sex on those occasions we actually had it. I was that repulsive to her. But she had endured to get the trip she wanted.

        So yes, it feels “icky” to wives with the feminist corruption no matter what they say.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        You’re a better man than I am. I go without for more than a few days I wanna punch a hole in the wall I get violently angry.

        Dont understand some women – dont want to do it with their husband but no other woman can either. They take away all mens relationships with other men and women including potential ones. Morality aside its like: “look, you don’t want to do it with me so why do you care if someone else does it with me – you’ll still get your paycheck, freebabysitting and status as “wife”

        Dont listen to anything I say I get really hot

        Like

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Cameron – I remember being in an argument over sexlessness and bringing up the very logic you did. Basically, if I committed to her alone and she is supposed to be my only option but refuses, then why can’t I have sex with women who would be willing to? It did not go over well. She got even more heated and started making threats.

        Every time I think about incidents like this, it still piques my anger. Then I remember that I do the equivalent to God on a daily basis. He says, “Don’t! It’s for your own good. I know because I made you.” Then I go and act like I know better and do it anyway. I can think of numerous verses affirming God’s perfection, love and divine purpose. So maybe the marriage I have, and the difficulties therein, are more about the gifts God has given me being used to sanctifying Mrs. A. Maybe my suffering is the impetus to gain wisdom to pass to the next generation. Maybe my suffering is just for me to grow in faith. Maybe it’s all of the above and other things I have not considered.

        I really don’t know the answer. I have seen enough, looking back on the chain of events in my own life with improbable possibilities working out and being protected from myself, that I know God is in fact in control and is working out the events of my life for my eternal good. But marriage is certainly tougher than it could be and that is the lot I have in life.

        Liked by 1 person

      • elspeth says:

        @ Cameron:

        The Practical Conservative has a post up laying out the changing demographics of marriage in America. She actually has a LOT of those posts, but her most recent one briefly touches on the political implications of the shift. She basically found that what Novaseeker says is correct, and it’s a big part of why people are marrying later, and of those who marry young, having kids much later.

        https://thepracticalconservative.wordpress.com/2021/07/01/married-parent-demographics/

        Liked by 2 people

      • cameron232 says:

        So does this suggest another RP axiom?

        If your wife isn’t sexually attracted to you, marriage is like institutionalized monogamous prostitution.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Comandante Baksuz says:

        //

        0:15, and then again throughout the video… //

        Like

    • cameron232 says:

      @all, my 11 yo went off fishing this am and came back with a new friend and a big, dead fish which he scaled and gutted on mom’s clean counter. That’s my childhood.

      Just wanted to mention that red blooded American boyhood still exists here in Florida.

      Liked by 2 people

      • elspeth says:

        “Just wanted to mention that red blooded American boyhood still exists here in Florida.”

        That’s very good news for all of today’s 6 year-old girls in Florida. 🙂

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        He’s my alpha male, my only one (didn’t get it from me). He already had a little Korean girl he brought home (didn’t call her his “girlfriend” of course). Then he had a girl named “Alexis” who he kept visiting – we didn’t meet her. He is the one who was thrown in the back of a cop car, he is currently sparring/boxing with a 15 year old boy in our neighborhood and has been sent to the office at school a bunch of times (including the school record for how fast – I got a call from the school here at work at 8:37am). He keeps pushing us to buy him a motorcycle.

        So yeah, the little girls of Florida will love him I’m sure. My task is to shape him into a SAM-like alpha instead of a jerk-player type alpha.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Liz says:

        Heh, I remember when our boys slayed an iguana and put its corpse in our refrigerator.
        They wanted me to cook it. I said I couldn’t cook a lizard with those legs sticking out. So they asked if it would be better if they broke the legs so they didn’t look so much like legs anymore. Eventually they ended up cooking the thing themselves in a fire pit outside (I didn’t want the thing in my kitchen).

        Liked by 2 people

      • elspeth says:

        Liz:

        My latest post was basically pics of iguanas that we took last weekend. Okrahead left a comment with a link to the proper handling of iguana along with recipes. Best part of the article was:

        DO NOT TRY TO MAKE IGUANA CEVICHE, because there is no evidence that the acid kills all possible parasites or pathogens.

        LOL!

        Liked by 3 people

      • Liz says:

        Heh, if there is ever an EMP, south Florida is set for meat for a while. 😆
        (never tried iguana myself, but the boys say it takes like a combination of chicken and venison.

        Liked by 3 people

      • Scott says:

        The iguanas at Guantanamo Bay are the size of miniature dinosaurs

        Liked by 3 people

      • cameron232 says:

        Wife and I went on one of those unofficial high school trips to Cancun – 27 years ago or whatever. The iguanas (gay ones not green) were everywhere – we remarked that they were as common as squirrels are in Florida – I think they must have filled the equivalent ecological niche.

        Liked by 2 people

      • cameron232 says:

        aww hell’s bells!

        “Gray” iguanas not “gay” iguanas. Don’t know if there’s such a thing as gay iguanas. Maybe they’re still in the closet.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Scott says:

        Gay ones is way funnier

        Liked by 3 people

      • Elspeth says:

        Thank you for asking, Liz. I was going to let that slide, but since you brought it up.

        Deti and I go way back. He knows my story, and I know his. I have never, ever once giggled, snickered, or commented with any specificity the things he shared about his wife over the years.

        He was not so kind to me, and still, I refrained from returning an insult. I have never giggled and snickered at him. I wouldn’t, because I recognize that his journey has been an arduous one. On the contrary, I have actually prayed for him.

        Liked by 2 people

      • professorGBFMtm2021 says:

        Its all in the DAL’ family,right elspeth?
        Were just one big happy family going into a great &inspiring new decade together like in the2010;s too!

        Liked by 1 person

    • Liz says:

      Deti almost had me on that “girlsmirin” thing until I saw Kamala Harris tucked in there.

      We already know that entire videos taken out of context can “lie” and not tell the true story. So, yes, a split half second photo does not necessarily reveal much of anything.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Jack says:

        Liz wrote,

        “We already know that entire videos taken out of context can “lie” and not tell the true story. So, yes, a split half second photo does not necessarily reveal much of anything.”

        She misses the main point, and I hope it’s not just an intentional effort to be contentious. Personally, I think women know exactly what is going on, much more acutely than men do, so if MLA women wanted to be helpful, they should be explaining, instead of arguing.

        The photographs showcased at GirlsMirin indicate women’s expressions at the moment a woman opens her heart to a man, i.e. Heart Trust. Yes, it only lasts for a moment, but that’s what it looks like. This is one type of IOI.

        I have spent hours searching for photos like this to add to posts, in order to convey an ideal male-female ontology, and they are very difficult to find, almost like they are scrubbed from the web. So it is not surprising that too many men don’t know what this looks like, or what it means.

        Liz says it “does not necessarily reveal much of anything”. It depends on what you mean by “anything”. It doesn’t mean they’re having sex, or that she would have sex with that man, but it does probably mean she would not be adverse to the idea of spending more time with that man, and maybe even having sex with him (if the planets are in alignment), even though she might never admit that.

        For men, getting a look like this is like a first step in developing an authentic relationship, “getting your foot in the door”, so to speak. Scott’s Axiom says that if a woman doesn’t give a man this kind of look from the beginning and quite regularly, then there is no hope of a mutual romance. As Cameron quipped, “Everything comes a lot easier when the woman gets an attractive man.” Too many men never pick up on this, nor how important it is for marital sanctification, and this is why we are emphasizing it here. Any argument to the contrary is an obfuscation of this hard won truth.

        P.S. We already know that Kamala Harris opens her Heart (and knees) to men quite easily. Her inclusion does not discount the main point, but rather emphasizes it.

        Liked by 3 people

      • Liz says:

        There was an interview with Loni Anderson long, long ago on Oprah. People might remember she and Burt Reynolds had a nasty divorce. And she asserted that just a couple of weeks before, he was praising her at the Emmies! They showed him quipping “thanks to my wife for giving me ‘the big one’ (for however many years). Oprah shook her head in disbelief. But I remembered right before that, Kirstie Alley kinda stole the show thanking her husband for “giving her the big one” for eight years. So in the spirit of a follow up, the intent was to be funny…and Burt was very funny. That’s probably the first time I learned to think critically when I see partial information and/or hearsay.
        So, no, I was not being intentionally contentious nor misleading in my statement. One truly cannot gleam much information from a split second photo. FWIW, Kristie and Parker divorced soon after also. You just never know. Takes a lot more than that to make a marriage work. Which I have attempted to explain here.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Liz says:

        When we lived on an Island a while back, I knew a person (former pilot) who sold weapons as a private contractor (his own company). He went to Columbia, and occasionally met up with Russians in Las Vegas. He said the ones in Las Vegas would always fly in two prostitutes. They were always very beautiful top tier model looking women. One would be rejected and go home, the other was kept for the duration of the time there. It was important to have one to reject. The one who was rejected would go back home with much less money than the one who was kept.
        I wasn’t there, but I’m pretty sure if a photo was taken at the moment the buyer was inspecting them, they were “mirin” at him pretty hard. Like a kid mirin at Santa (unless he/she is screaming). Again, still photos can easily mislead. There are probably photos out there of Hillary mirin at Bill.

        Liked by 1 person

      • thedeti says:

        One truly cannot gleam much information from a split second photo.

        Continuing to miss the point hard.

        Maybe YOU can’t get much from a ‘mirin photo, but I can.

        You don’t get much from it because you don’t know what to look for. You don’t get much from it because what’s contained in it means nothing to you.

        But it means EVERYTHING to us men.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Liz says:

        But it means EVERYTHING to us men.
        I don’t even know what to say to this.
        Putting faith in a photo without many underlying facts and context is simply a foolish thing to do.

        Like

      • thedeti says:

        Takes a lot more than that to make a marriage work. Which I have attempted to explain here.

        Easy for you to say, when you’re ‘mirin Mike hard. HARD. Real easy for you to talk down to men who look for this, when it’s all you and Mike have ever experienced.

        The girls around here don’t get to tell the men what they want, need or should have for their relationships, particularly when they ALREADY HAVE IT. The girls here also don’t get to tell men what it takes to build a marriage because THEY ARE GIRLS. The reason I had a sh!tty marriage for years was because I listened to women tell me what I should do, what I should think, what was important, what works, and what doesn’t. So, with all due respect, I am DONE listening to what women think about this stuff. Frankly, you shouldn’t be talking about it. Frankly, you shouldn’t be lecturing men about what they need from their marriages. Not your call to make. Not for you to decide. Leave that to the men to decide. Frankly, you don’t have anything worthwhile to offer on this particular issue.

        I bet if I saw Liz next to Mike, I’d see lots of ‘mirin. I KNOW i’ve seen Mychael ‘mirin Scott, and I am pretty sure Elspeth ‘mires SAM. Elspeth literally GUSHES here about him. You can literally sense the sexual arousal jumping off the screen every time she writes about him.

        You can’t get to marriage unless there’s ‘mirin there. You can’t get there without her admiration. That’s the foundation of a healthy marriage.

        So don’t come in here telling me how it “takes more” than that, WHEN YOU ALREADY HAVE IT and when you don’t know what it’s like to NOT have it.

        Liked by 1 person

      • thedeti says:

        But it means EVERYTHING to us men.
        I don’t even know what to say to this.
        Putting faith in a photo without many underlying facts and context is simply a foolish thing to do.

        I cannot believe how hard you miss the point.

        How about you don’t say anything.

        The PHOTO does not mean everything. It’s the SENTIMENT CONVEYED IN THE PHOTO that means everything. That is how every man wants his woman to look at him – a look you’ve given Mike without even thinking about it first, because it was an involuntary reflex.

        No one is “putting faith” in ANYTHING. The photo is a depiction of something men want and that women give the men they’re attracted to. It is not about faith. There is no “facts” and “context”. Yeah, sure, Liz, let’s talk “facts” and “context” when we’re talking about attraction which is a foundation of any successful male-female relationship. Sure. The sentiments and her attraction are all the “facts” and “context” one needs.

        I just cannot be more clear about this. What is it about “it’s really really important that a woman be sexually attracted to her man, and that’s depicted in these photos” do people not understand? It is NOT about “faith”. It is about what you can CLEARLY see is conveyed BY THE WOMEN in those photos.

        And, Liz, it’s real easy to talk about how unimportant that is when you already have it.

        Got it now?

        Like

      • Liz says:

        I bet if I saw Liz next to Mike, I’d see lots of ‘mirin. I KNOW i’ve seen Mychael ‘mirin Scott, and I am pretty sure Elspeth ‘mires SAM.
        Yes. In this case there are some underlying facts which support that said “mirin” is legit.
        Support facts that lend credibility to said “mirin” imagery.
        Photos without context or background knowledge, by contrast, do not.
        This is why thousands of people are miserable looking at facebook images of imaginary situations where people fain happiness and success when they are anything but.

        I am not “talking down to” people when I share my thoughts and experiences here.
        But if that is your impression I will go away.
        In fact, I am gone here. I am very sorry to have caused you so much distress.
        Truly, I am an unbeat person and like to be helpful not harmful and I feel like I am causing you harm by the way you are responding to my posts (and have been responding).
        Best wishes to you, truly.
        Grace and peace. Liz out.

        Like

      • thedeti says:

        Yeah, I’m out too.

        Like

      • thedeti says:

        Yeah, I should be done too. The notion of sexual attraction is a VERY simple concept – it’s about the sentiment shown in the photo. It’s a clear depiction of attraction. It’s important. It’s vital. Marriages fail without it. And here we have women posting here, who should know better, lecturing men that it’s not important, it’s deceiving, and we can’t draw conclusions from what we can clearly see.

        No. I’m not going to listen to that. I’m not going to accept that. I’m not going to be lectured to by women who already have theirs and are telling other men it’s not important or that it’s not real when I know damn well it is real.

        Liked by 1 person

      • professorGBFMtm2021 says:

        Tell it brother DETI!!!You are repersenting all of us MEN out here!!!

        Heres some brothers telling women about how they don’t understand us high-value men-types at all!!!

        Like

      • thedeti says:

        GBFM:

        I’m not a high value man. I’m just a man. I’ve just seen some things that I can’t unsee. So I can’t accept “well, a woman’s admiration is not important” or “those women aren’t admiring the men they’re looking at” when I can see with my own two eyes EXACTLY what is going on. I can’t accept being told that something’s not important when I know it is.

        I’m just an ordinary man who connected some dots, that’s all – and I can’t unconnect them. And I can’t listen to women tell me that what I want and need isn’t important.

        Liked by 2 people

  18. Lastmod says:

    Cameron, you know… sometimes in company, it’s just good “manners” to say such things…… It is the South. It doesn’t matter if she means it or not…… To me, it shows this woman was raised properly in the art of conversation.

    There was a an old black woman at senior center when I worked for the Salvation Army. She was as old as Methuselah. She was from Tupelo Mississippi. Once, I mentioned to her, “Oh, that is where Elvis Presley was from…”

    She replied, “Umm…. yes, yes he was….. but he was country…”

    It was just the gentle mannerism……. of “yes”, polite reply……. but “he was country”, implying he was not of good stock like her, or people she knew. She was not talking about “country” music.

    I loved it!

    Liked by 2 people

    • cameron232 says:

      That’s true lastmod. Also if it’s not said directly to the person it seems more likely to be a polite nicety. A woman saying it directly to SAM is more likely to really mean it.

      Cool story about her reaction to Elvis.

      Like

    • Red Pill Apostle says:

      Lastmod – Your Elvis story is great. When my grandmother moved from the northeast to her first house in the South, she was taught by some of her neighbors how seemingly innocuous language would leave people with a social shiv in the back. To her, being told someone was “nice” would have been a compliment. But, it was an understood that someone labeled “nice” was not good people. The adjectives for good people were, “precious”, “wonderful” or similar. Good manners prevented unbecoming language, which is how “nice” becomes the bottom of the barrel.

      Liked by 1 person

  19. locustsplease says:

    Women are excellent judges of mens physiques. The reason womens attraction for men that size decreases is because they have lost a lot of athleticism. He is also short. A body like that isnt any good in a fight. However there is almost no amount of leanness that turns women off. The above look is also not natural hes not a freak women want a physical freak, hes on steroids and hgh counterfit.

    I would say womens max hotness in a man is 6’4″ 230 and sub 12%bf. Men like this do not have competition or probably any game! They find a soul mate every day they leave the house! Lean enough that you could run a marathon. Yet enough muscle to bench 400+ and win fights. I worked for a guy like this. Total stud. In his 50s i saw him out on a saturday night with a solid 10 early 20s. The look on her face ill never forget couldnt have been happier she won the vanity contest. Hes also rich.

    Liked by 2 people

  20. Lastmod says:

    Denzel is my actor. Just a really down to earth guy. Love his acting.

    Liked by 3 people

  21. professorGBFMtm2021 says:

    Heres another average day out&about for myself!These girls are so clingy&possessive but its my body girls so my choice with what I do with it!!!

    They even try to claim my harley too?OH HELL NO!!!

    I don’t play that GAME!!!

    This might be my one last try at true romantic love!!!

    Like

  22. Scott says:

    If I don’t log in for a few days, happy Independence Day or whatever.

    Liked by 4 people

  23. Pingback: Answers to the Exit Questions for the Series on Masculinity | Σ Frame

  24. thedeti says:

    This is the basis for Deti’s admonition that women need to be cross eyed with sexual desire for their husbands. Because what I just described, or something similar is often what happens when they are not. Mostly it leads to divorce. For a few of us, we break, get up, realize we’ve been lied to about women all our lives and set out to climb the mountain of change both for ourselves and our families. Many men who choose to stay then have to come to grips with the fact that their wives aren’t really attracted to them and make the best of it for their remaining decades.

    In the short time I have read your comments, I do not get the idea that you and SAM are anything like what I have described. By God’s grace your combination of faith, attraction for SAM and his dominant persona have spared you the all too common outcome. I doubt that SAM on a regular basis has to give himself a pep talk to find the will to stay married to you for the next few decades. If that last sentence sounds ridiculous to you, this is why Deti writes that y’all are marriage outliers and says you don’t really understand.

    Damn right.

    I have been here for TEN G.. D… YEARS and people STILL do not get this. The women STILL do not get this. They can’t even intellectually understand it.

    Liked by 2 people

  25. Lastmod says:

    You’re doomed everyone….unless a woman has “that look” from the moment she sees you…….it will never work. So who will judge this look…..a new panel of “christian sphere experts” to deduce this look, and see if she is using her “female nature” to trick you.

    outreageous nonsense….hence why most non-christians want nothing to do with this place.

    Like

  26. Pingback: Why challenge the character of your wife? | Σ Frame

  27. Pingback: Secrets | Σ Frame

  28. Pingback: Exhuming the Masculine Frame | Σ Frame

  29. Pingback: Knowing how things are supposed to be | Σ Frame

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s