Wives reap what they sow

The opposite of submission is not necessarily rebellion, but a heart that is miserly with affection and grace.

Readership: All
Theme: The Integrity and Fidelity of Marriage
Author’s Note: Stephanie (author of the discontinued blog, All Things Bright And Beautiful) asked me to write this post. She and I share the view that this topic is one that needs to be continually taught.
Reader’s Note: More women should read this and become aware of how they have a choice to either build up their marriages with faith, or tear it down with foolishness.
Length:
2,500 words
Reading Time: 8.5 minutes

Husbands have a long fuse, but once they blow up, they’re gone!

Stephanie, the host of an older Femosphere blog that is now defunct, All Things Bright and Beautiful, wrote an excellent post entitled, “Don’t Ruin Your Husband’s Love Toward You” (2018 April 9) (Web archive here.) I have extracted sections of this post to be quoted below.

““…the reality of how we treat others is reflected back in how they end up treating us.  Grace or not, Christian or not, I believe God often allows us to reap what we have sown into the hearts of others – our friends, our family members, our children, but especially our husbands.

It’s not usually talked about in our culture, especially in regard to how women treat their husbands.  But the fact and spiritual principle of reaping and sowing, affects everything we do and everyone around us – whether we want to admit to it or not.”

And I think we’d be wise to have a healthy fear of this.  If we love our husbands, we must take into effect that this could be possible if we continue in sin against him, always believing that tomorrow is another chance, and yet never taking the measures to truly change for good.”

“…a wife can harm her husband’s ability to love her so terribly, that it almost becomes impossible for him to feel the same feelings toward her as he once did.  Keep in mind this doesn’t usually happen within the first 10 years or so of marriage. I think it happens after a couple or more decades… it’s a slow husband-love killer.

Σ Axiom 22 (AKA The Mob in the Crucible Effect, c.f. “frogs in the pot”, or “crabs in the bucket”): We all influence those around us, for better or for worse. We are all subject to the decisions and actions of others, especially those in positions of power (including power players in the SMP). Thus, it is the will of God for us to act as responsible independent moral agents.

Case Study 1 – Jack’s First Marriage

This is exactly what happened to me and my first wife. She would frequently get angry about things that she refused to talk about. About once every month or so, she threatened to get a divorce, and she would even pack a suitcase and leave the house for a few days or a week. Each time she did that, it made me worried and sad. But after she went on like this for about two years, I just couldn’t take any more of her anger and drama, and something inside me just snapped. I stopped trusting her. I stopped believing that things would improve. Then, the next time she spoke of divorce and left, I actually felt glad that she was gone. When she came back a few days later, I felt so depressed.

After she pulled this stunt a couple more times, I realized how my emotional reaction to her behavior had changed, and then I knew in my heart that our marriage was truly hopeless and would soon be over. I finally started to believe all her talk about divorce, and I started seeing her threats as a legal liability. I felt like I had to face the facts, and deal with it. Sure enough, it wasn’t long after that, she really did file for a divorce, and I was very glad to finally get her out of my life.

Looking back, I can’t help but wonder how differently things might have turned out, if she had learned to settle down and enjoy married life, instead of using her anger to control everything, including me. Looking back, I can only conclude that she only viewed marriage as a tool to advance her own purposes, and not as an opportunity to enjoy life together with another person.

Case Study 2 – Leo and Sophiya Tolstoy

Stephanie quoted an excerpt from one of her favorite books on a woman’s role in a godly marriage.  It was about the relationship Leo Tolstoy had with his wife.

“When a wife constantly pushes or nettles her husband, it is like the bite of a poisonous snake and can cause the destruction of a could-be holy marriage.  One of the most tragic cases in history is that of the Russian novelist, Count Leo Tolstoi and his wife.”

“In the beginning of their marriage, Tolstoi and his wife were so blissfully happy that, kneeling together they prayed to God to continue the ecstasy that was theirs.

Tolstoi is one of the most famous novelists of all time.  Two of his masterpieces, War and Peace and Anna Karenina, are considered literary treasures.  He was so admired by his people that they followed him around day and night and took down in shorthand every word he uttered.”

Leo Tolstoy

“Although he was a man of wealth and fame, after studying the teachings of Jesus, he gave away his property, worked in the fields chopping wood, and pitching hay, made his own shoes, ate out of a wooden bowl, and tried to love his enemies.  He gave away the publishing rights to his books and had the courage of his convictions to live a life he believed in.

But his wife never accepted him or his simple philosophy of life.  She loved luxury and he despised it.  She craved fame and the esteem of society, but these things meant nothing to him.  She longed for money and riches, but he thought these things a sin.  For years she made every effort to change him and his views.  She screamed at him because he insisted on giving away the publishing right to his books.  When he opposed her she threw herself into fits of hysteria, threatening to kill herself or jump down the well.

After 48 years, this man who had adored his wife when he married her could hardly bear the sight of her.  And one of the most tragic scenes as when Countess Tolstoi, heartbroken and old and starving for affection would kneel at her husband’s feet and beg him to read aloud the exquisite love passages that he had written about her in his diary fifty years previously.  And as he read of those beautiful happy days that were now gone forever, both of them wept.”

Leo Tolstoy

“His dying request was that she should not be permitted to come into his presence.”

…which is a poignant way of saying, “Let me die in peace.”

Case Study 3 – Too little, too late

Stephanie wrote the following commentary about this all to common tragedy.

“When I was in a marriage group some time ago, I would see women like Tolstoi’s wife come in fairly often – already usually a couple of decades into their marriage – and be desperately pleading with us on how they can turn everything around, all the while admitting that they’ve been treating their husbands horribly for the past few decades. […] Usually he had finally had enough, or reached some kind of “breaking point,” and he wanted out.  Or he had found another woman who treated him kind again – who admired him and loved him more than his wife seemed capable of.”

It is sad that it has to come to this before wives are motivated to face the issue and do something in order to have a happier marriage.

Stephanie went on to explain how these women responded when they realized that the damage had already been done and that there was nothing left for them to do but to face the bitter consequences of the bitterness they had been sowing for decades.

“It was usually apparent that it was already too late, but it was very interesting to watch these women go through psychological changes of first being extremely repentant and humbling themselves, eager to learn and read and practice trying to honor and respect him.  I often had such great hopes for them that they were truly changing in their hearts.  But when it didn’t work (and often times the husband wouldn’t believe their change was real or genuine), they would turn angry, they would get bitter, and then become very resentful even toward us as they believed our advice for happy marriages wasn’t true.

They would become indignant that their husbands’ didn’t accept their changes.  I would see these women start suddenly claiming that their husbands had really “emotionally abused them,” all this time, and that their (the wife’s) sin was in submitting to them too much.  Then they’d often blame sites like mine in creating women who submitted too much!  It was… like I said… very interesting to watch psychologically.  I talked about that here in this post a little.”

So, when they saw that they would not avail of any mercy, that there would be no personal benefit to their repentance, then instead of grieving over their errors and losses and making the best of it, they totally backtracked and denied any wrongdoing on their behalf, even going so far as to blame their husbands and attack those who were telling them the truth and who were offering assistance.

“Again, though, like in the Tolstoi example, this sort of behavior is actually tantamount to abusive in my opinion, toward the husband.  It falls under the “Borderline” or “Cluster B” disorders, which are extremely hard to fix, never-mind how hard it would be to live with someone with those psychological disorders.  A wife like this will usually never be able to admit she was verbally or emotionally abusive for years, until it’s almost too late, but it’s interesting how quick they are to act like they were the victim of emotional abuse, when just a few months before, they were admitting (finally) that they treated their husbands so terribly that they couldn’t believe he put up with it for so long!”

D@mn solipsism!

Leo Tolstoy’s wife, Sophiya, and their children.

Case Study 4 – Sabrina tries to Straddle the Feminist Fence

In the comments under Stephanie’s post, Sabrina wrote the typical hypercognitive viewpoint of a Strong Independent Woman who is churched up enough to value the institution of marriage, but who is also converged enough to insist on seeing marriage as a partnership of equals and a zero sum game.  She doesn’t understand the beauty of submission and the peace of being under a husband’s spiritual covering. She wrote,

“[In Ephesians 5:21-24,] Paul is reminding wives to submit to their husbands, even though he is asking the husbands to submit to the wives as well. Paul wanted to make sure wives understood that this revolutionary idea wasn’t changing their role as wives. He was asking for a change in the reason why. He was asking the wives to submit because they “want to”, not because they have to. Paul was asking Christians to mutually submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. He was selfless and so should we be as well.”

“The interesting thing is when you look at the original Greek, the word submit isn’t even in verse 22. It says, “wives to your husbands”. The “submit” is implied because of verse 21. However, the Lord is asking for submission none the less. Husbands submit to your wives and wives submit to your husbands, in everything.”

“We’ve been conditioned to believe we are less than our men, but that simply isn’t the case.”

Red Pilled readers should know by now that it is a gross misinterpretation of scripture to conclude that the Bible says, “husbands should submit to their wives.” It’s also despicable and disrespectful, both to themselves and to God, for women to assume that godly submission implies that they are somehow less human than men.

Stephanie responded well to Sabrina’s solipsistic self-deception.

“Yes, I do think it’s good for husbands to value their wives’ opinions and to listen to them, that’s not “submitting” to their wives though. Hopefully y’all can understand the huge difference between submitting to someone (doing what they want to do) and listening to their ideas and opinions and deciding if it makes more sense. And also, that’s not what Tolstoi’s wife was doing when she was throwing herself into hysterics and threatening to kill herself just because he wanted to live out his Christian convictions. Hopefully y’all can see that like I said in the post, that behavior is under the Cluster B and Borderline psychological disorders, and should never be used as a good method to get your husband to “listen” to you. Talking, sure, trying to persuade him, maybe… it all depends on how emotionally mature and respectful the wife is in the way she views her husband.

Also, she was still supported financially, so it’s not that he was sinning by refusing to take care of them. And he wasn’t physically harming her either! She just had a craving for his wealth and fame and success and wanted more money from his books (which he felt convicted to give away).”

Woman’s Mission: Companion of Manhood (1863), by George Elgar Hicks (1824-1914). Part of a 3 piece composition dedicated to a “Woman’s Mission.” Presented by David Barclay at the Tate Museum (1960). This painting was to depict a loving wife being her husband’s companion.  It was said that the woman in the paintings strongly resembled the artist’s own wife.  He honored her so much, and was so grateful for her companionship, that she became his artistic inspiration.

Having an unacceptable Influence makes a woman unacceptable

In his study of the factors of successful marriages, John Gottman concluded that it’s very important for husbands to be “accepting of their wives’ influence.” Feminists are quick to interpret this as meaning that husbands should accept their wives demands and share the balance of power. (I also tend to believe Gottman himself was somewhat of a feminist, as most people of his generation are.) However, Gottman’s research showed that active listening, compassion, gentleness, and physiological soothing between both the husband and wife were key ingredients that enable marriages to succeed. This lines up with the Biblical command for husbands to love their wives (Ephesians 5:25-33) and it hints at the reason why all believers should submit to one another in love (Ephesians 5:21).

If we consider the Biblical analogy of how the relationship between Christ and the church is similar to that of husbands and wives (also in Ephesians 5:25-33), this would imply that Christ/husbands have the authority, and should be accepting of the church’s/wives’ influence, and that the church/wives should submit to Christ/husbands in everything. This viewpoint seems to agree with scripture, but it also depends on what kind of influence they might have.

A husband’s acceptance of his wife’s influence could be considered a form of the mutual submission to all believers that Paul mentions in Ephesians 5:21, but it’s quite different from submission in a hierarchical order within marriage which Paul succinctly emphasizes in verses 22-24.

Moreover, Sabrina’s attempt to hijack and misappropriate the truth of the scriptures (case study 4) is an evasion from the overriding point of Stephanie’s post — that there is no middle ground between wifely submission and being contentious. Sabrina’s stance offers us an excellent example of how women will do mental backflips to justify their non-submission. Anything, it seems, is better than submission, even at the cost of their own sanctification.

Conclusions

As I described in Women have sex to influence men (2021-11-10), most secular women will use whatever means they can to make themselves socially relevant and to influence a man, and sex is at the top of the list. But unfortunately, we have many churchianized wives, like Sabrina, who have a dim view of sex, and are not content to merely be an influence in a man’s life. The thing is, a woman’s neglect or rejection of her role as an influencer (e.g. Sabrina) invariably erodes Headship authority and summarily presents itself as a negative influence in a man’s life.

Σ Frame Maxim 25: A woman’s neglect or rejection of her role as an influencer (as opposed to a more direct expression of control) invariably presents itself as an unacceptable influence in a man’s life.

If this influence is so pernicious that it destroys a man’s confidence, his domain of authority, his finances, his reputation, his progeny, yea, even his faith in God, then he may reach a point where he comes to weigh the cost-to-benefit ratio of retaining the presence of this influence, face up to his ability to cope with it, and decide whether to keep this woman (i.e. his wife) in his life or not. As Father Spyridon said, it becomes an issue of salvation/sanctification. In anticipation of readers’ objections that this emphasis on soul-preservation is not a Christian way for a man to deal with his wife, I need to emphasize that this is not a conscious decision made of free will, but one that a man is forced into against his volition, as described in case studies 1 and 2 above. IOW, it is a natural consequence of what their wives have been sowing in their hearts over the years.

Corollary to Maxim 25: A woman who has a grossly unacceptable influence is unacceptable as a wife.

Wifely submission is absolutely necessary for a man to get any sense of satisfaction out of the union. Her submission is also necessary for the marriage to glorify God. If a woman is not being feminine and submissive enough to allow her husband to experience joy, peace, and contentment in the relationship (i.e. sanctification), then at some point, he’s going to withdraw from her emotionally, and perhaps physically as well.

“Can God redeem marriages like this?  I believe He can do anything.  But it’s not the norm that these marriages are ever fully repaired, so it’s best if you don’t ever fall into this pattern, as it all could have been so easily avoidable from the beginning.

And if anything, please remember Leo Tolstoi’s bitter marriage, and be on guard against women like his wife who suddenly tried to twist the truth in the end, in an effort to destroy her husband’s legacy and reputation.”

The sad thing is that once 20+ years of a bad marriage are lost to the sands of time, this dynamic is unlikely to ever be reversed. As Stephanie said, “God often allows us to reap what we have sown into the hearts of others.” It’s difficult to argue against God’s concept of justice.

Also see the comments under these posts.

About Jack

Jack is a world traveling artist, skilled in trading ideas and information, none of which are considered too holy, too nerdy, nor too profane to hijack and twist into useful fashion. Sigma Frame Mindsets and methods for building and maintaining a masculine Frame
This entry was posted in Agency, Choosing a Partner or Spouse, Complementarianism, Conflict Management, Convergence, Courtship and Marriage, Discernment, Wisdom, Divorce, Enduring Suffering, Female Power, Feminism, Fundamental Frame, Generational Curses, Glory, God's Concept of Justice, Headship and Patriarchy, Holding Frame, Introspection, Love, Models of Failure, Moral Agency, Organization and Structure, Psychological Disorders, Psychology, Purpose, Relationships, Respect, Sanctification & Defilement, Self-Concept, Self-Control, Solipsism, Sphere of Influence, Stewardship, The Power of God, Trust, Vetting Women. Bookmark the permalink.

38 Responses to Wives reap what they sow

  1. cameron232 says:

    Sabrina:

    “He was asking the wives to submit because they “want to”, not because they have to.”

    Dalrock wrote about a million words about this. The woman’s feelings (as to whether hubby is worthy of submission) are the ultimate guide to whether or not she should submit. If she doesn’t, it’s proof of his failure. She’s obviously ignoring the far clearer verses instructing women to submit and the fact that these verses were universally understood this way prior to the rise of modern (secular) feminism. Christians somehow always got it wrong (for nearly 2,000 years) until they were gracefully corrected by non-believers in the late 20th century.

    Both Peter and Paul are quite clear. But her bible verse can beat up yours.

    Liked by 4 people

      • One of my relatives sent this to me yesterday.

        Hilarious but sadly true. Very Babylon Bee-esque “satire” that’s actually real though. :\

        Liked by 3 people

      • feeriker says:

        You KNOW that, just as with everything the Babylon Bee puts out, this won’t remain mere satire for very long.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Elspeth says:

        John Crist nails it more often than not. I am very glad to see him back in fighting form after they tried to “me too” him out of the spot light.

        By the way, he didn’t rape anyone or do anything to any woman that she wasn’t a participant in, and it was truly mild stuff, like making out after too many drinks. But of course, all the women and the liberal preachers held him as the man “accountable” for the later hurt feelings of the princesses. I was kind of outraged on his behalf.

        Glad he’s back.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        I have seen Crist live a couple times now and actually got to meet him after his show at the Fox Theater a couple years ago. His satire on church culture is quite funny and he grew up in the same town Mrs. Apostle did, so there are times when his references literally hit home.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Elspeth says:

        I should note that I am not trying to excuse the sexual sin of a Christian who got caught simply because I want to give him a pass as a man. Crist was wrong, but I just don’t like the way the women were being painted as victims rather than willing participants.

        Liked by 1 person

  2. cameron232 says:

    “Anything, it seems, is better than submission”

    Unless they land a rare alphabux in which case submission is often far easier.

    Like

    • redpillboomer says:

      “Unless they land a rare alphabux in which case submission is often far easier.”

      In the couple of cases I’ve seen where a thirty something woman pulls this off, I’ve noticed this is not enough for her, i.e. the apparent and enviable, in the eyes of the sisterhood, ‘sticking of the landing’ with a marriage to an Alphabux. What seems to be the issue is she ‘got him,’ to include the wedding and a couple of kids which earns her all the applause from female society, but a few years into the marriage she’s dissatisfied.

      In the one case, my wife and I got to work with a couple like this. I noticed the wife always couched things in “He doesn’t do this, and he doesn’t do that” language. Had I not had a red pill lense and been viewing it through my prior blue pill mindset, I’d have thought, “Okay, Captain America, you need to at least meet the little lady half way with some of these ‘do’s’ she’s requesting/demanding.” However, in viewing it through a red pill lense and scripture, I saw the conflict was rooted in a lack of submission on the wife’s part. I could see the socialization in her background to view her marriage in egalitarian terms. In other words, “We’re equal partners in this thing called marriage, and he’s not doing ‘his half’,” as SHE DEFINED IT.

      As far as I could tell, the husband was TRYING to meet her half way, but coming up short time and time again in her eyes, especially with the kids and around the house. To me, he really seemed to be working at it, but could not satisfy her or keep her satisfied when he temporarily met her expectations; AND, he was getting increasingly frustrated. I could see a divorce looming in their future, if the Missus did not get what she was doing to him and her marriage. HOWEVER, it was hard for her to see it even though my wife and I were helping her.

      Interestingly, while we were coaching her and them as a couple, she began to do the things we suggested, reluctantly at first, but increasingly as time went on. She gradually began to submit to his headship, and Voila!, the relationship started to improve. She started to appreciate him during our calls, acknowledge him for all he was doing and endeavoring to do, and working with him to meet his needs. In turn, he was ramping up his attention on meeting her needs, a lot of it without us telling him he had to, he just did it.

      Unfortunately, we stopped coaching them, as we are all part of a couples program, and couples get rotated once a quarter. They now have stopped participating because in large measure, they’re back at it again, her not submitting, demanding egalitarianism, and creating drama and conflict.

      Liked by 3 people

    • locustsplease says:

      If they have to divorce an alphabux you can see the pain in their eyes. Child support and alimony is a crappy trade from being the permanent arm candy of a 6’4″ ripped millionaire. A lady told me, “He wouldnt stop cheating on me. We had sex 3 times a day, and then he cheated on me after 10 years. Then he stopped coming home and I had to make excuses for him to the kids.”

      But to guys like me — “Ohhh… I see some spots on those dishes! Get out of here, bum! You’re easily replaceable! And pay me that d@mn child support, slave!” Also, “I never loved you!”

      Liked by 2 people

  3. “In his study of the factors of successful marriages, John Gottman concluded that it’s very important for husbands to be “accepting of their wives’ influence.” Feminists are quick to interpret this as meaning that husbands should accept their wives demands and share the balance of power. (I also tend to believe Gottman himself was somewhat of a feminist, as most people of his generation are.) However, Gottman’s research showed that active listening, compassion, gentleness, and physiological soothing between both the husband and wife were key ingredients that enable marriages to succeed. This lines up with the Biblical command for husbands to love their wives (Ephesians 5:25-33) and it hints at the reason why all believers should submit to one another in love (Ephesians 5:21).

    If we consider the Biblical analogy of how the relationship between Christ and the church is similar to that of husbands and wives (also in Ephesians 5:25-33), this would imply that Christ/husbands have the authority, and should be accepting of the church’s/wives’ influence, and that the church/wives should submit to Christ/husbands in everything. This viewpoint seems to agree with scripture, but it also depends on what kind of influence they might have.

    A husband’s acceptance of his wife’s influence could be considered a form of the mutual submission to all believers that Paul mentions in Ephesians 5:21, but it’s quite different from submission in a hierarchical order within marriage which Paul succinctly emphasizes in verses 22-24.”

    Ah, you missed it. A husband accepting his wife’s influence is why marriage was created in the first place:

    Genesis 2:18
    The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”

    Not accepting help from your helper is one way to increase distrust.

    Believers submitting to one another in Christ is for the purpose of unity in that it creates a temporary authority structure between equals to dissuade selfishness (also, Phil 2:1-8), but unity in a marriage is completely different because of actual authority structure: headship-submission and love-respect.

    Liked by 2 people

  4. Red Pill Apostle says:

    I read Stephanie’s post about wives reaping what they sow. It is absolutely true. Even though my marriage is much better than it used to be and continues to improve, the way I feel about Mrs. Apostle now is a shadow of what I felt for her in the beginning. Frequent sex sooths and softens the heart, but if we go a few days without for whatever reason the toughness is still there. I can tell because I have to work much harder at patience, caring, and not being short with her after a couple days without sex. I completely understand Tolstoy’s last wishes regarding his wife and have been there myself.

    Like

  5. Sharkly says:

    “It’s also despicable and disrespectful, both to themselves and to God, for women to assume that godly submission implies that they are somehow less human than men.”

    Women are fully as human as men, but they are the inferior representative of the species.

    Men, as we are told, are the image and glory of God, while women are the glory of men. (1 Corinthians 11:7) The weaker vessel was not made to bear the image of the most high Father or Son. In Ephesians 5 the husband images Christ (God) while the wife images the straying church (not God). And in Ephesians 5:33 she is told to see to it that she reverences her husband. 1 Timothy 2:9-10 tells us that women professing godliness should adorn themselves with shamefacedness. Alternately the husband images (Christ) the exalted head, while the wife images the body. God made the man first and preeminent and he made the woman as a second class of human to serve the first and be under the dominion of the primary representatives of the species. Righteous and just and loving God made the man to rule over the wife and declared that to be His holy patriarchal will. It is no usurpation at all for the man to rule over the woman since he is categorically the superior creature and a likeness of the Godhead. For a woman to presume to pretend to be the equal of a man is usurpation and rebellion against God’s holy patriarchal kingdom.

    No, she’s not less human, but she is certainly categorically less than all men who are the image and glory of God. And it is disrespectful for any woman to try to act as an equal to men, and it blasphemes God, for her to pretend to be equal or greater than the image of the most high God. When she is to be under subjection to the image of God, as it is only fitting. (Colossians 3:18)

    Liked by 1 person

    • Rock Kitaro says:

      Don’t you find it weird that people are so bogged down by this notion of who’s superior, who’s better, we MUST BE EQUALS. To those who’s ego and self-esteem seems so preoccupied by the issue, I usually go with, “we’re equal in value but different by nature”, if they’re so defiant against the idea of accepting that men and women are indeed different.

      Like

    • redpillboomer says:

      “No, she’s not less human, but she is certainly categorically less than all men who are the image and glory of God. And it is disrespectful for any woman to try to act as an equal to men, and it blasphemes God, for her to pretend to be equal or greater than the image of the most high God.”

      My wife and I are part of a church home group that includes several couples, a widow and a divorced woman. What strikes me about the group is the respect and submission the female members have for the men leading the group, and the rest of the men in the group in general. They just seem to ‘get it’ at some level without needing a ‘lesson’ in submission or respect being given.

      The group has tremendous harmony when we meet every other Friday night for a meal, Bible study, and fellowship. All the women there seem to intuitively get the concept Sharkly wrote above: “She is certainly categorically less than all men who are the image and glory of God.”

      They instinctively seem to know their place in God’s order of things. Yes, they are “not less human,” aka less valued or appreciated, but they definitely seem to be aligning themselves with this scriptural concept: “Men, as we are told, are the image and glory of God, while women are the glory of men.” (1 Corinthians 11:7).

      The women fully participate, but never ‘step over’ the men in the group. They let the men lead and they follow. In fact, sometimes we have to encourage them to participate more as they will tend to remain silent if we don’t. It’s not a low confidence/low self-esteem kind of silence, but a silence of respect for the men in the group.

      The group functions meeting after meeting like this, and has for several years now. God’s order just works. The women seem to understand this and conform to it without a word ever being spoken about it. It’s just the ‘way things are.’

      Liked by 4 people

      • info says:

        “They instinctively seem to know their place in God’s order of things. Yes, they are “not less human,” aka less valued or appreciated, but they definitely seem to be aligning themselves with this scriptural concept: “Men, as we are told, are the image and glory of God, while women are the glory of men.” (1 Corinthians 11:7).”

        If we go all the way with this logic of submission being the equivalent of being devalued and treated as less than human…

        Then Parents would have no rights over their children either. What is applied in relations between Men and Women can easily be reapplied in relation to parents and children.

        Liked by 1 person

  6. Rock Kitaro says:

    Thanks for sharing your personal experience, Jack. LOL, it took me all day to read this on the clock, but I had to. Definitely one to remember. Admittedly, I knew of the name Tolstoy, but the subjects of his books didn’t spark an interest in me. After reading this, and a quick skim to Wikipedia… d@mn! It definitely strengthens my resolve to find one already endeavoring to put God first. And I’m certainly glad I committed myself to Christ before I got married, lest my future wife use the cliche, “You changed!” cry that we’re heard so many times before.

    I’ve never been in that kind of relationship… where you forgive the seemingly repentant person only for that person to keep antagonizing you once they’ve realized you’ve forgiven them. In Dennis Prager’s book about “Exodus,” he uses this very example of domestic/spousal abuse to describe Pharaoh who asked for forgiveness after the Plague of Locusts. As soon as the plague was lifted, Pharaoh went back to refusing to let the Israelites go.

    And then there’s the once-effective counterattack of, “I thought you loved me! I guess that was a lie!” to justify you not putting up with them anymore.

    All strong lessons to remember. Thank you!

    Like

  7. Random Angeleno says:

    This post hit me hard.

    Jack spoke of a husband’s love destroyed after decades of marriage. How about just a few years? That’s how long my marriage lasted. I was the one who left; the ex was living in her own solipsistic fantasy land in which I would always take whatever she had to dish out. The day I served the divorce papers on her was also the day I moved out. I was actually disgusted when she begged me to stay, that’s how far gone I was. But some of that was I hated myself for having to leave plus I hated myself for the failure to follow my parents’ example of a lifelong marriage and in turn, the fiasco was the most humbling experience of my life.

    Looking back, I had to accept full responsibility for not dumping her when her red flags appeared before we were engaged. Since then, I have no innocence left and a very low tolerance for poor conduct. I know it’s a feature, not a bug, but I have zero ****s to give. Probably explains why I haven’t remarried.

    One critical insight that I got from Gottman that isn’t mentioned above is that contempt is his most critical marker for determining if a marriage will end in divorce at some distant time from the present. In particular, the contempt of a wife for her husband. Lack of respect is the Christian phrase for it, but contempt goes beyond just a lack of respect. I found these points about contempt and respect echoed in Dalrock and The Rational Male, among other Manosphere writers. So I’ve come to realize that if a husband does not have his wife’s unequivocal respect, nothing else matters. It is only when a wife truly respects her husband that it becomes easier for her to act like his wife in the ways that matter to him. But as Rollo says, it’s still incumbent on the men to keep performing. Another state of affairs that has little appeal to many men. “Why should I keep performing for that harridan?”

    Liked by 7 people

    • Jack says:

      Random Angeleno,

      I remember reading about the corrosive effects of contempt in Gottman’s work.

      “[The contempt of a wife for her husband is the] most critical marker for determining if a marriage will end in divorce at some distant time from the present. […] Lack of respect is the Christian phrase for it, but contempt goes beyond just a lack of respect.”

      Yes, contempt is expressly anti-respect. That is why it’s so destructive.

      Contempt goes under the radar for a long time, partly because women are skilled in keeping it toned down in order to stay relevant and advance their own purposes. But to the trained observer, it can be detected in certain indicators of contempt (IOC), things like huffing, heavy sighing, rolling the eyes, edgy-ness, tedious impatience, sudden deft actions (like slamming a door or throwing a book on a table carelessly), and sharp dismissive statements like, “yeah, right…”, “whatever…”, “OK, I’m done here”, and others. Men find these IOCs annoying but they don’t really recognize this lack of humility as the latent rebellion that it is, and that the relationship is on thin ice.

      Liked by 3 people

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Mrs. Apostle did all of the indicators you mentioned for years. Every. Single. One. These are indicative of a Proverbs 21:9 & 19 woman, and you will suffer if you are in a relationship with one. For single men, if you see any of these recur during dating you either try to fix her or end it, but the reality is the amount of effort required to readjust her attitude is not worth it when you can put the same effort into looking for a decent woman.

        Liked by 1 person

    • Red Pill Apostle says:

      RA – For me it was the combination of the post and Stephanie’s post that Jack linked to. They ring very true.

      Like

  8. info says:

    “So, when they saw that they would not avail of any mercy, that there would be no personal benefit to their repentance, then instead of grieving over their errors and losses and making the best of it, they totally backtracked and denied any wrongdoing on their behalf, even going so far as to blame their husbands and attack those who were telling them the truth and who were offering assistance.”

    “Again, though, like in the Tolstoi example, this sort of behavior is actually tantamount to abusive in my opinion, toward the husband. It falls under the “Borderline” or “Cluster B” disorders, which are extremely hard to fix, never-mind how hard it would be to live with someone with those psychological disorders. A wife like this will usually never be able to admit she was verbally or emotionally abusive for years, until it’s almost too late, but it’s interesting how quick they are to act like they were the victim of emotional abuse, when just a few months before, they were admitting (finally) that they treated their husbands so terribly that they couldn’t believe he put up with it for so long!”

    “D@mn solipsism!”

    They have become like Satan — full of pride and denying any wrongdoing and punishing their victims by falsely accusing them of being the true perpetrators whilst believing their own victimization.

    Creatures bound for d@mnation. As Satan accused us. So those women prove their hellbound destiny. Unless they truly embrace God’s grace and turn themselves around and repent.

    Liked by 2 people

    • redpillboomer says:

      “It falls under the “Borderline” or “Cluster B” disorders, which are extremely hard to fix, never-mind how hard it would be to live with someone with those psychological disorders.”

      Agree. Even if the woman is what they call sub-clinical, that is, she exhibits many of the traits of the Borderline, but it doesn’t quite rise to the level to be diagnosed as a Borderline Personality Disorder, it doesn’t matter. In a relationship, you’ll still feel pretty much the full effects of a woman with diagnosed BPD. The same is true for the other Cluster B personality disorders: Narcissism, Anti-Social, and Histrionic.

      I’ve experienced the ‘Cluster B’s’ who were more than likely sub-clinical, and let me tell you, it’s no ‘walk in the park’ relationship-wise with them either. The only difference I saw between the sub-clinicals and the clinicals in my experience was the more subtle nature of the sub-clinicals. The clinical version of the Cluster B’s pretty much ‘walks up to you’ and ‘slaps you in the face with it.’ In other words, they wear it on their sleeves so to speak. The subclinicals, they act pretty much normal much of the time and then BOOM, here it comes; catches you off guard because you weren’t expecting it. For example the classic narcissists, the so-called Grandiose Narcissist, parades around for all to see his/her narcissism on full display; but the Covert Narcissist, he/she is more subtle, and yet when it manifests: BOOM gotcha too.

      Like

      • info says:

        Demons are quite narcissistic. I suspect a supernatural influence behind all narcissism too.

        Some report supernatural events that occur around many narcissists.

        Like

  9. anonymous_ng says:

    I just never could understand the problem with submission. Perhaps it’s because men are socialized from an early age to work together in groups and often use more objective measures to establish a pecking order.

    It seems so simple from my time in the military. When a decision was needed, it was the prerogative, even the duty of those junior to raise issues and concerns and even to advocate for one option over another, and in so doing give the commander the best information possible. However, once the decision was made, at that point the focus and responsibility shifts to doing everything possible within the necessary boundaries to make the decision successful.

    As a junior military officer, I never felt less because I didn’t make the final decision and had to submit to the decision of the commander. The trouble wives have seems truly an ungodly affection.

    Liked by 3 people

    • cameron232 says:

      Most women can only get the consolation prize beta male. So they’ll be d@mned if they’re gonna submit to the consolation prize. They gotta get something good out of the deal — control, power, their way, etc.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Lastmod says:

        I am discovering here in LA anyway…….. most women really don’t like men. Sure, as an accessory, for a fling……. a baby…… the government / state / county will back them up as a single mom. The culture does too.

        Again, as for the Alpha / Beta male thing. In the sphere its pretty much settled now that Alpha means “a guy who is a hit with the ladies by his chance of winning the genetic lottery.”

        Beta means a supplicating loser who could be an Alpha easily if he just goes to the gym, exudes masculinity (whatever THAT means) and just “goes up and talks to women cause they don’t bite”, and if he doesn’t do this EXACTLY correctly like Rollo, DS, and others say in easy steps…… then “he is weak, and just doesn’t want to put in the work to find the unicorns which are everywhere, but are not everywhere, because AWALT.”

        On that rare occasion I talk to younger men….. a few at work…… one or two I have met in my apartment building: “Focus on your career, lowering or eliminating debt, hobbies, and stuff you like doing for the sake of doing them.”

        Women in this world, esp in LA or NYC, DC, Miami, Dallas, Boston….. really don’t need men for anything, and really don’t like them. I tell younger men, “Don’t waste your time on them like I did, and with zero results. Travel. Get a house. Enjoy the decline.” Even the ones where I grew up in the great North of New York State really don’t like men either.

        Young men need to find their place in the New World Order and make sure they count when it comes to a career. (There are other things besides STEM. Most men will never be mechanical engineers.) To be a leader today is so diluted. I have met maybe one or two men in my entire life that could be called “leaders.” Most men have jobs where they have some minor authority on what task gets done first at work and claim this is amazing “Alpha leadership.”

        I attended a friend’s church in Fresno when I was practicing. They called men who were ushers “leaders” because they had the very difficult task of handing out a program at the entrance……. Leadership, like the word “love”, means little today.

        Liked by 4 people

      • Sharkly says:

        Women are cursed to try to be usurpers. Don’t blame the beta-males. Women try the same rebellion and shit-tests with the alpha-males, but the alpha-males are just better at pushing their own frame of reference onto others. The right to physically discipline our wives has been robbed from us, so we are only left to resort to psychological/social manipulation (which alpha-males are better at) to try to get rebellious usurping wives back on track. Ultimately if the wife chooses to go nuclear or scorched earth, the marriage is toast, whether the man is alpha or not. The alpha-male’s social dominance and social skills might buy him some more time, or might even resolve things with a less contentious woman, but if the woman is a stubborn enough fool she will surely destroy her home since a house divided against itself cannot stand.

        The reason that many women can’t submit to making a marriage work with an easy-going beta-male is not because the beta-male is so intolerable, it is because their own rebellion, usurping, and pattern of returning evil for good, and scorning the liberty that the beta-male affords them, destroys the relationship that God intended to last until death. The answer to this all is to reinstate and uphold the patriarch’s right to physically discipline all the other members of the family including his wife. Otherwise he’s fighting with his hands tied behind his back, only relying on manipulation techniques and bluffing or threatening the marriage himself.

        God didn’t make the man the stronger vessel for nothing. He didn’t make the man stronger than apes or lions or tigers, mainly just stronger than womankind. Anybody who categorically denies husbands the right to physically discipline their wives and other dependents is serving Satan’s purposes. And whining about the possibility of abuse is just a blanket excuse to defy God and strip men of their headship, it is never brought up in a good faith effort to assure a patriarch his rights, while also offering counsel and accountability that upholds his headship. It is just satanic scaremongering about some boogeyman who might go too far. It is just Saul Alinsky’s satanic strategies turned against all husbands and God’s patriarchal institution of marriage.

        Even the world knows that the “Pimp hand” is how you rule over whores. It is a shame that the apostate churches worship women to the point where they feel wives can never be wrong or in need of discipline from their husband. They have to take men’s God-given advantage away to assure women that they can rebel without ever fearing any physical correction.

        Ephesians 5:33 (Geneva)
        Therefore everyone of you, do ye so: let everyone love his wife, even as himself, and let the wife see that she fear her husband.

        Before any b!tch-worshipping gynogroveler tries to say that wives should not fear their husbands, he should open his satanically-blinded eyes and see where fearless wives have gotten us today. If you don’t think that wives should fear their husbands, then your argument is with God, because He is the One who has asked that we should fear Him, and that wives should also fear their husbands, who image God. And don’t bring up 1 John 4:18 and try to make God a liar. I’ll tell you in advance that you don’t get what the verse is explaining if you think it contradicts the fear of the Lord and wives fearing their husbands.

        Like

  10. Excellent post! I’m not married and probably won’t, but it’s interesting to learn about how things work in the marriage.

    The standard view of divorce is that the woman puts out a lot of warnings and the man ignores them until it’s too late. This is certainly different.

    Answer me this: how would you 1) detect and 2) fix this behavior prior to the wedding? What info can you show her or activities can you lead her through before marriage that will fix this problem?

    Like

    • “Answer me this: how would you 1) detect and 2) fix this behavior prior to the wedding? What info can you show her or activities can you lead her through before marriage that will fix this problem?”

      I went over this here:

      Christianity and Masculinity: Practical advice to single Christian men establishing leadership and the right frame when starting a relationship (2021-12-23)

      Essentially, lead and see if she follows, much like Jesus did with His disciples. If she balks for whatever reason, try to correct her (gently and kindly and with the fruit of the Spirit and such). If she persists consistently in ignoring your leadership or has a bad attitude then she’s not someone you want to marry. These things don’t magically get fixed in marriage. How she treats you while dating/relationship/engaged with disrespect, rebelliousness, etc is how she’s going to treat you when married.

      Liked by 2 people

  11. locustsplease says:

    The “reap what they sow” statement always sounds harsh but this is just a reality about every relationship business or financial decision we make our entire lives. Nobody runs their mouth to a person at their job and expects good service back. Middle class college educated women aren’t buying a car, getting in the salesman’s face, and yelling, “What do you want to do, hit me, tough guy? You think your tough! Go ahead and do it!” This is saved for that special someone in their life.

    It’s 100% never the other way around, even once — a gas lighting psycho in public but giving 1st class service to the man in her life.

    Like

  12. feeriker says:

    “So, when they saw that they would not avail of any mercy, that there would be no personal benefit to their repentance, then instead of grieving over their errors and losses and making the best of it, they totally backtracked and denied any wrongdoing on their behalf, even going so far as to blame their husbands and attack those who were telling them the truth and who were offering assistance.”

    I certainly hope that this behavioral observation did not come as a surprise to the author, even as a woman. What she describes here is, very simply, a woman being a woman. That is to say, “unable to take responsibility for the consequences of her own behavior.” A woman doesn’t even have to be dealing with anything as serious or traumatic as her own self-annihilated marriage to behave this way. She reacts this way to even minor acts of her own carelessness or error. Ergo, the idea that someone who can’t accept responsibility or consequences for even her most minor missteps is going to do so for something as serious as destroying her own marriage and family is just patently absurd. It goes against her psychoneurological programming. It’s like expecting a child not to lie when they’re caught red-handed with their hand in the cookie jar.

    Like

    • Sharkly says:

      Many women today (especially Feminists) are mentally much like children due to early arrested development because of their refusal to resolve their inherent pen1s envy. They remain stuck in an envious state, unable to resolve themselves to focusing on making the most of their womanhood.

      Liked by 1 person

  13. RMIV says:

    Isn’t all of this abuse from women caused by mens’ unwillingness to discipline or spank their wives over their bad behavior?

    Perceived male weakness is the reason for all sh!t tests, yes?

    Liked by 1 person

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