Why challenge the character of your wife?

Kindness and Grace are not what we are led to believe.

Readership: Christians; Married Men;
Length: 1,300 words
Reading Time: 4.5 minutes

There are three things which are too wonderful for me,
Yes, four which I do not understand:
The way of an eagle in the air,
The way of a serpent on a rock,
The way of a ship in the midst of the sea,
And the way of a man with a virgin.

Proverbs 30:18-19 (NKJV)


Kindness, properly understood as a spiritual characteristic, is the impartation of the quality of acceptance into God’s presence and His world of Shalom. Grace is when one is given the opportunity to enter into that Shalom when one is yet unqualified or unfit to do so. (The term “unearned” is often used, but I feel this is a misnomer, since it cannot be earned.) Once the doorway to Shalom has been opened to an individual by the power of God’s kindness and grace, it is expected that the individual will realize that there is a parallel paradigm in which to navigate life and that through the participatory experience, one will learn to adapt and become a part of the Covenant Life.

Modern Christians, and many non-Christians as well, have somehow gained the notion that kindness and grace are “nice”, patient, polite, soft, and “caring” — something akin to agape love. While this may often be the case, this quality is not absolutely necessary, and can sometimes work against the process of integration. I won’t pretend to know where this notion came from (maybe we’ll figure it out as we go), but I’ll guess that it went hand in hand with chivalry and the feminization of Christianity.

This post will examine how kindness and grace are not very “nice” in the context of intersexual interactions and marital sanctification.

An Unregenerated Character is a Loose Cannon

From an evo-psyche perspective, the goal is procreation, while simultaneously, the goal of the Holy Spirit is our sanctification. For kindness and grace to take effect, there are various “obstacles” to these goals that need to be “removed”.

In the Answers to the Exit Questions for the Series on Masculinity (2021-07-02), one of the conclusions was that the character of the wife is a large determinant of whether or not a man can be honest with her.

RedPillBoomer wrote,

“This got me to thinking about my wife and her character. Whether it’s the ability to be honest around her or really anything else we do as a couple, a lot of what makes our relationship work is her character. Yes, there is/was visceral attraction, and as important as that was back in the day when we met, the character issue was as important, and probably more important to making the marriage last in the long run.”

“So, it’s not just about ‘maintaining frame’ and all the other stuff we guys are supposed to do that makes it work. Her character is/was the difference maker. In other words, I could have done all that stuff and it still would not have worked out in the long run if she didn’t have the character.”

In other words, the standard implementation of Frame and Game is not consistently effective towards sanctification (i.e. entering into a state of Covenant Shalom). In order for her to be cooperative to this end, she must first be made to “see” the parallel paradigm.

Deep Strength responded,

“Generally, “reframing” fixes most of these issues. If you’re going to emote and cry over a fear or worry you have that’s generally something that a woman would do. Some men do this. Their women are repulsed. Sharing it the “masculine” way per se by indicating that this could be an issue and sharing it with a wife and asking her suggestions without getting overly emotional and problem solving the issue is good potential leadership.

It seems to me that some of the issue might be the way in which someone does something rather than what they are actually doing. The way in which a confident man would ask out a woman rather than a timid man is pretty stark even setting aside physical appearance.”

There are a couple things about Deep Strength’s viewpoint that need further explanation. First, early in a relationship, it is necessary for the man to construct the Covenant relational archetype by being assertive, confident, and masculine. In other words, he must establish Headship. This is Deep Strength’s point. However, this alone is not enough to impart the kindness and grace necessary to draw her into Shalom.

Secondly, if a man is going to be totally honest and authentic, then he doesn’t have much of a choice about whether it will come off as “masculine” or “feminine”. The only choice he has is whether to go on pretending to be what he thinks he should be (which is usually much easier), or to be real. If he chooses the latter, then when the real person comes out, whatever is inside will be manifested, quirks, farts, warts and all.

The value of being honest and authentic is that it is a confession/profession of character – it allows the real person to come out where it can be seen and dealt with, and this creates an opportunity for any shortcomings to be improved. It is a step towards grace. It also helps others understand the man for who he really is, and not what people want to think about him.

The problem with this is that if the man is not sufficiently mature, then taking this approach may benefit his own growth, but it does not fit the Covenant relational archetype, and will not yield any sanctification in an intersexual relationship. This is the main point that Adam Piggott made in his critique, Husbands must not unburden themselves (2021 July 6).

Deep Strength continues [emphasis mine],

“I can choose to be fat or muscular and one is obviously better for attracting my wife versus challenging and negatively influencing her in submission and respect.”

Yes, physical “candy” (as well as other LAMPS qualities) can be an effective “lure” to draw her in (if he has it), but this too is not enough to achieve sanctification. A man must address the spiritual interaction, and not only the physical.

“[Likewise,] I can be “open and honest” with my wife if I do it in a masculine way but not in a feminine way, and it shouldn’t have much negative blowback whether I was attractive to her or not. However, the exception is if the way you do it (or the way she perceives it) perpetuates an inverted roles relationship in which that would be bad all around.”

Once again, the exception proves the rule. Ultimately, it is about maintaining Headship, which goes back to my first point. The only way that a man can assert Headship, and come across as more masculine than feminine, is by improving his character, or as past Manospherians have put it, “You can’t fake being Alpha. You actually have to become a better man!”

Challenges Bring Maturity in Men

Much of this maturation comes through acculturation and upbringing, but this venue of personal growth has failed in our modern culture. However, a spiritually minded man will recognizes that the challenges of life, as orchestrated by God, have the effect of refining his character. A man can be more willing to embrace the challenges, engage in this process, and nurture a positive attitude about it (which admittedly can be difficult at times), but ultimately, the process of maturation is the work of God in a man.

Why should God challenge the character of a man? It is for the benefit of his own refinement, and by extension, the spiritual lives of all those whom he may influence throughout his life. This is an expression of the kindness of God towards that man specifically, and towards his family and community in general. I know the word “kindness” will cause some readers to flinch and think twice, so I’ll say that it would be unkind for God to allow a man to wallow in an immature, unregenerated state against his will and His purposes, so God allows pain, pressures, and challenges in life as a form of refinement and growth.†  Of course, during this process of regeneration, it is to be expected that the man’s weaknesses and vulnerabilities will become manifested. But this is a part of the process. Those things must become apparent, so that those issues can be dealt with and resolved.

Challenges bring Maturity in Women too

In several previous posts, I’ve described how a man’s relationship with God is reminiscent of a wife’s relationship with her husband. So when Deep Strength asks,

“Given what I already said in the previous section, why challenge the character of your wife?

The answer should be evident. It is for the benefit of her own refinement, and by extension, the spiritual lives of all those whom she may influence throughout her life.

In fact, a man doesn’t need to make much effort at all to challenge his wife’s character. His own weaknesses and the hardships of life are sufficient for this purpose. But the problem is that many men try to play the proverbial Chivalrous Nice Guy™, and they even believe that it is the “Christian” thing to do! By doing so, not only do they prevent a woman from ever waking up to her worst nature, but they stoke the flames of her indignant discontentment even higher! So from a spiritual viewpoint, the Chivalrous Nice Guy™ is more misogynistic than not, because he neglects his God ordained duty to teach and mould his wife (if he has one), and thereby allows her spiritual constitution to stagnate and fester.

A man who has fewer weaknesses and a bit of Game is a little better off in this regard, but not much. A man who relies on Game tactics to appease his wife’s worst nature may be doing what it takes to keep his marriage intact, but he’s still being rather unkind to his wife because this still allows her poor spiritual constitution to continue on unchecked. A kinder man would allow the character of his wife to be challenged, just as God allows his own character to be challenged, all for the purpose of growth and refinement.*

All of this is just another way of saying something we already know — that being “nice” won’t produce sanctification in a relationship, and in fact, it can be rather annoying.

* Before anyone labels this misogynistic, of course, this must be done without violating trust, or else it all falls apart. Exercising discernment is key.

Case Study – Make no bones about it!

Here is a case study to help readers understand what I am talking about in this post.

I won’t eat the cartilage on the end of bones, but my wife likes to eat that. She told me that eating soft bone and epithelial tissue is good for her skin. (Actually, it’s true!) During meals, she often expressed that she wanted me to give her the soft bone to eat instead of passing it to the garbage. So after a while, I developed a habit of eating the meat off of the bone, and then putting the bones and cartilage on my wife’s plate for her to gnaw on.

Then one day, I gave her a chicken bone and it made her angry. She said, “I always give you the best cuts of meat, and you always give me the bones! You only give me what you don’t want for yourself!” In response, I told her, “Yes, I always give you the bones… because I love you! [said with sarcastic emphasis] If I didn’t love you, then I wouldn’t give you any bones at all! I would just throw them in the garbage.” At first, she interpreted my words as arrogant chauvinism, which made her more angry and indignant. But after a moment, she recognized the inherent and ironic kindness of the act, and it brought her into Shalom! This made her feel loved and she burst into tears. Since then, we laugh about this whenever we remember it.

Isn’t it surprising how being a chauvinist @$$ can bring Sanctification? I believe this is what the author of Proverbs was referring to in verse 19 (cited before the introduction). It is the power of God at work!


My main point here is that Kindness must be properly understood as an acceptance into God’s presence and His world of Shalom, and Grace (in this specific context) is when the wife is given the opportunity to enter into the Shalom of Headship when she is unqualified or unfit to do so. As you can imagine, western men need a lot of grace towards their wives these days! A man who extends kindness and grace to his wife may actually need to be very rude in his efforts to wake her up from the prevalent worldly paradigm and make her see another way of living. A man’s task of making this goal evident to his wife may be just as difficult as God making the goal of suffering understood by a man.

We are tempted to cling to Red Pill tenets of being masculine, developing Game, and maintaining Frame, thinking that this should be a magic bullet for relational woes. But while this is necessary, it is not sufficient. Men must not lose sight of the overall goal, which is to make his wife realize that there is a parallel paradigm of Covenant Headship in which the marriage can be harmonious and satisfying, and that through her participation, she can learn to adapt and become a part of the Covenant Life.

Anyone who says this is unrealistic, or that “it doesn’t work”, is only thinking along a short term humanistic strategy and fails to understand God’s prerogatives of Redemption and Sanctification. Those who can understand the deep inner workings of the Holy Spirit and “the way of a man with a maiden” may come to understand why “Chicks dig jerks!”


The problem of pain and suffering: In a nutshell, many people believe that if God were good and kind, then suffering and evil would not exist. But in fact, God’s kindness is what allows men to have (1) the free will that results in their own sufferings, and (2) the divine grace necessary to produce regeneration in the crucible of life. Only those who (1) idolize pleasure, comfort, and convenience, or (2) cannot envision God’s plan of redemption will conclude that God is negligent, evil, or does not exist.

Wintery Knight has reviewed the problems of evil and suffering.

About Jack

Jack is a world traveling artist, skilled in trading ideas and information, none of which are considered too holy, too nerdy, nor too profane to hijack and twist into useful fashion. Sigma Frame Mindsets and methods for building and maintaining a masculine Frame
This entry was posted in Attitude, Authenticity, Boundaries, Confidence, Conflict Management, Conserving Power, Courtship and Marriage, Discernment, Wisdom, Discipline, Fundamental Frame, Headship and Patriarchy, Holding Frame, Joy, Leadership, Love, Male Power, Maturity, Personal Growth and Development, Models of Failure, Models of Success, Moral Agency, Purpose, Relationships, Self-Concept, Sphere of Influence, Stewardship, Strategy, The Power of God, Vetting Women. Bookmark the permalink.

83 Responses to Why challenge the character of your wife?

  1. professorGBFMtm2021 says:

    These women demand kindness!!!&will give up the poon for it in a kind heart beat!!!

    Learn the ”kind&nice rules of fornication&adultery”&you too young men!!

    This was the begining of the first MGTOW as we met the bluepill world for the first time!!!

    Here we are after the kindness of GAME&churchian redpillers!!!

    Liked by 1 person

  2. professorGBFMtm2021 says:

    Here is the war to end all wars of churchian redpill kindness that is not age restricted!!!


    • professorGBFMtm2021 says:

      Sleazy like churchians!Seduction the good headship way!!!!No-non-sense kind guide to getting wimminz!!!Whats wrong with being a minimalist like I&aaron!?https://aaronsleazy.blogspot.com/p/minimal-game.html
      Hes mature&married!!!So he knows whats up,right?
      When did the manosphere die?Thursday, November 1, 2012
      This tell you about the churchians big fornication heroes they want young men to emulate!!!
      Is not the”christian”redpill persumptous against the sacred smp/mmp?


      • professorGBFMtm2021 says:

        So if you don’t agree with fake game you’ll burn in the lake of fire,right?
        This tell minz whats up with womens character!!
        Heres the first MGTOW before churchian GAMERS infiltrated it with minzup doctrines of persumptousness!!!

        Heres some more churchian kindness!!!

        Wheres all this kindness&dcency talk at when I’m getting IOIS at the gym&on the streets?
        This is for churchians!!

        Book project will lead to happy&wholesome marriage crops for everybody!!!
        Realy exciting results for dads&rachels alike!!


      • professorGBFMtm2021 says:

        This is for mission-focused he-men!!!This is from a unknown traditional true romantic!!!
        Protestants rewrote gods word,huh?
        Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM)
        GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM) says:
        August 9, 2012 at 10:35 am
        Vox Writes,
        ” Being truth, Game is a subset of Christianity that happens to relate to an area of particular importance and interest to men.”
        Heartsiste must be very flattered as Heartiste’s teachings are now a subset of
        Christ’ teachings as Witnessed Firtshand by Dalrock and Vox, during Christ’ other
        Sermonon the Mount which was a Seromon on Mounting Poon lzozozzoz! I did not
        catch this in Matthew, Mark, Luke, nor John, but I imagine Deacon Dalrock is
        adding a new book–the book of Dalrock, in which the sermon on the mount and all
        that crap about the meek is replaced with Vox’s idea of “Christianity as Game”
        lzozlzozooz which is all about pursuing and dominating poon and learning how to
        make a owman’s gina and butt tingelzzozlozoz:
        http://heartiste.wordpress.com/the-sixteen-commandments-of-poon/ (note that heartiste signs this as Your Lord and King, as Heartiste, acting through Christ as Dalrock & Vox insist, is their true Lord and King! lzozozozoz) :
        Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John all had the day off, but Dalrock and Vox got up
        early to see Jesus preaching Game on the mount (the sermon on the mount was
        actually a sermon on how to mount poon! lzozozozlzlzoz)
        Dalrock and Vox both Testify that they Witnessed Jesus Preaching:
        The Sixteen Commandments Of Poon (the sermon on the mount–on how to
        (As originally taught by Jesus Christ as Witnessed by Dalrock and Vox)
        Dalrock and Vox both Testify that they Witnessed Jesus Preaching:
        I. Never say ‘I Love You’ first
        Women want to feel like they have to overcome obstacles to win a man’s heart. They crave the challenge of capturing the interest of a man who has other women competing for his attention, and eventually prevailing over his grudging reluctance to award his committed exclusivity. The man who gives his emotional world away too easily robs women of the satisfaction of earning his love. Though you may be in love with her, don’t say it before she has said it. Show compassionate restraint for her need to struggle toward yin fulfillment. Inspire her to take the leap for you, and she’ll return the favor a thousandfold.
        Dalrock and Vox both Testify that they Witnessed Jesus Preaching:
        II. Make her jealous

        Flirt with other women in front of her. Do not dissuade other women from flirting with you. Women will never admit this but jealousy excites them. The thought of you turning on another woman will arouse her sexually. No girl wants a man that no other woman wants. The partner who harnesses the gale storm of jealousy controls the direction of the relationship.
        Dalrock and Vox both Testify that they Witnessed Jesus Preaching:
        III. You shall make your mission, not your woman, your priority
        Forget all those romantic cliches of the leading man proclaiming his undying love for the woman who completes him. Despite whatever protestations to the contrary, women do not want to be “The One” or the center of a man’s existence. They in fact want to subordinate themselves to a worthy man’s life purpose, to help him achieve that purpose with their feminine support, and to follow the path he lays out. You must respect a woman’s integrity and not lie to her that she is “your everything”. She is not your everything, and if she is, she will soon not be anymore.

        Dalrock and Vox both Testify that they Witnessed Jesus Preaching:
        IV. Don’t play by her rules
        If you allow a woman to make the rules she will resent you with a seething contempt even a rapist cannot inspire. The strongest woman and the most strident feminist wants to be led by, and to submit to, a more powerful man. Polarity is the core of a healthy loving relationship. She does not want the prerogative to walk all over you with her capricious demands and mercurial moods. Her emotions are a hurricane, her soul a saboteur. Think of yourself as a bulwark against her tempest. When she grasps for a pillar to steady herself against the whipping winds or yearns for an authority figure to foil her worst instincts, it is you who has to be there… strong, solid, unshakeable and immovable.

        Dalrock and Vox both Testify that they Witnessed Jesus Preaching:
        V. Adhere to the golden ratio
        Give your woman 2/3 of everything she gives you. For every three calls or texts, give her two back. Three declarations of love earn two in return. Three gifts; two nights out. Give her two displays of affection and stop until she has answered with three more. When she speaks, you reply with fewer words. When she emotes, you emote less. The idea behind the golden ratio is twofold — it establishes your greater value by making her chase you, and it demonstrates that you have the self-restraint to avoid getting swept up in her personal dramas. Refraining from reciprocating everything she does for you in equal measure instills in her the proper attitude of belief in your higher status. In her deepest loins it is what she truly wants.

        Dalrock and Vox both Testify that they Witnessed Jesus Preaching:
        VI. Keep her guessing
        True to their inscrutable natures, women ask questions they don’t really want direct answers to. Woe be the man who plays it straight — his fate is the suffering of the beta. Evade, tease, obfuscate. She thrives when she has to imagine what you’re thinking about her, and withers when she knows exactly how you feel. A woman may want financial and family security, but she does not want passion security. In the same manner, when she has displeased you, punish swiftly, but when she has done you right, reward slowly. Reward her good behavior intermittently and unpredictably and she will never tire of working hard to please you.

        Dalrock and Vox both Testify that they Witnessed Jesus Preaching:
        VII. Always keep two in the kitty
        Never allow yourself to be a “kept man”. A man with options is a man without need. It builds confidence and encourages boldness with women if there is another woman, a safety net, to catch you in case you slip and risk a breakup, divorce, or a lost prospect, leading to loneliness and a grinding dry spell. A woman knows once she has slept with a man she has abdicated a measure of her power; when she has fallen in love with him she has surrendered nearly all of it. But love is ephemeral and with time she may rediscover her power and threaten to leave you. It is her final trump card. Withdrawing all her love and all her body in an instant will rend your soul if you are faced with contemplating the empty abyss alone. Knowing there is another you can turn to for affection will fortify your will and satisfy your manhood.
        :Dalrock and Vox both Testify that they Witnessed Jesus Preaching:
        VIII. Say you’re sorry only when absolutely necessary
        Do not say you’re sorry for every wrong thing you do. It is a posture of submission that no man should reflexively adopt, no matter how alpha he is. Apologizing increases the demand for more apologies. She will come to expect your contrition, like a cat expects its meal at a set time each day. And then your value will lower in her eyes. Instead, if you have done something wrong, you should acknowledge your guilt in a glancing way without resorting to the actual words “I’m sorry.” Pull the Bill Clinton maneuver and say “Mistakes were made” or tell her you “feel bad” about what you did. You are granted two freebie “I’m sorry”s for the life of your relationship; use them wisely.

        Dalrock and Vox both Testify that they Witnessed Jesus Preaching:
        IX. Connect with her emotions
        Set yourself apart from other men and connect with a woman’s emotional landscape. Her mind is an alien world that requires deft navigation to reach your rendevous. Frolic in the surf of emotions rather than the arid desert of logic. Be playful. Employ all your senses. Describe in lush detail scenarios to set her heart afire. Give your feelings freedom to roam. ROAM. Yes, that is a good word. You’re not on a linear path with her. You are ROAMING all over, taking her on an adventure. In this world, there is no need to finish thoughts or draw conclusions. There is only need to EXPERIENCE. You’re grabbing her hand and running with her down an infinite, labyrinthine alleyway with no end, laughing and letting your fingers glide on the cobblestone walls along the way.
        Dalrock and Vox both Testify that they Witnessed Jesus Preaching:
        X. Ignore her beauty

        The man who trains his mind to subdue the reward centers of his brain when reflecting upon a beautiful female face will magically transform his interactions with women. His apprehension and self-consciousness will melt away, paving the path for more honest and self-possessed interactions with the objects of his desire. This is one reason why the greatest lotharios drown in more love than they can handle — through positive experiences with so many beautiful women they lose their awe of beauty and, in turn, their powerlessness under its spell. It will help you acquire the right frame of mind to stop using the words hot, cute, gorgeous, or beautiful to describe girls who turn you on. Instead, say to yourself “she’s interesting” or “she might be worth getting to know”. Never compliment a girl on her looks, especially not a girl you aren’t fucking. Turn off that part of your brain that wants to put them on pedestals. Further advanced training to reach this state of unawed Zen transcendence is to sleep with many MANY attractive women (try to avoid sleeping with a lot of ugly women if you don’t want to regress). Soon, a Jedi lover you will be.
        Dalrock and Vox both Testify that they Witnessed Jesus Preaching:
        XI. Be irrationally self-confident
        No matter what your station in life, stride through the world without apology or excuse. It does not matter if objectively you are not the best man a woman can get; what matters is that you think and act like you are. Women have a dog’s instinct for uncovering weakness in men; don’t make it easy for them. Self-confidence, warranted or not, triggers submissive emotional responses in women. Irrational self-confidence will get you more p@ssy than rational defeatism.

        Dalrock and Vox both Testify that they Witnessed Jesus Preaching:
        XII. Maximize your strengths, minimize your weaknesses
        In the betterment of ourselves as men we attract women into our orbit. To accomplish this gravitational pull as painlessly and efficiently as possible, you must identify your natural talents and shortcomings and parcel your efforts accordingly. If you are a gifted jokester, don’t waste time and energy trying to raise your status in philosophical debate. If you write well but dance poorly, don’t kill yourself trying to expand your manly influence on the dancefloor. Your goal should be to attract women effortlessly, so play to your strengths no matter what they are; there is a groupie for every male endeavor. Except World of Warcraft.

        Dalrock and Vox both Testify that they Witnessed Jesus Preaching:
        XIII. Err on the side of too much boldness, rather than too little
        Touching a woman inappropriately on the first date will get you further with her than not touching her at all. Don’t let a woman’s faux indignation at your boldness sway you; they secretly love it when a man aggressively pursues what he wants and makes his sexual intentions known. You don’t have to be an asshole, but if you have no choice, being an inconsiderate asshole beats being a polite beta, every time.
        Dalrock and Vox both Testify that they Witnessed Jesus Preaching:
        XIV. Fuck her good
        Fuck her like it’s your last f@ck. And hers. F@ck her so good, so hard, so wantonly, so profligately that she is left a quivering, sparking mass of shaking flesh and sex fluids. Drain her of everything, then drain her some more. Kiss her all over, make love to her all night, and hold her close in the morning. Own her body, own her gratitude, own her love. If you don’t know how, learn to give her squirting
        orgasms.Dads who fantize about your non-wife wimminz you okay with this?
        Dalrock and Vox both Testify that they Witnessed Jesus Preaching:
        XV. Maintain your state control
        You are an oak tree. You will not be manipulated by crying, yelling, lying, head games, sexual withdrawal, jealousy ploys, pity plays, s#it tests, hot/cold/hot/cold, disappearing acts, or guilt trips. She will rain and thunder all around you and you will shelter her until her storm passes. She will not drag you into her chaos or uproot you. When you have mastery over yourself, you will have mastery over her.
        Dalrock and Vox both Testify that they Witnessed Jesus Preaching:
        XVI. Never be afraid to lose her
        You must not fear. Fear is the love-killer. Fear is the ego-triumph that brings abject loneliness. You will face your fear. You will permit it to pass over and through you. And when your ego-fear is gone you will turn and face your lover, and only your heart will remain. You will walk away from her when she has violated your integrity, and you will let her walk when her heart is closed to you. She who can destroy you, controls you. Don’t give her that power over yourself. Love yourself before you love her.
        and keep real, true unconditional love and happiness in your life.


        Your Lord and King

        lzozozlozolzlzoz(Daold days!)

        If you want to see more of what Dalrock and Vox Witnessed Jesus teaching, watch the videos of Roosh & Mystery! lzozlzozoozzlo(Daold days again!!!)
        Who needs to tell minz to minzup again!?
        All these good fathers dreaming of getting young stuff who love this stuff?
        In front of goddess rachel even?

        P.S.Is GAME part of being a christian or not!?
        As usual most minz will not be able to remember all this!!!
        Most don’t have a good memory at all!!!
        Just because alot of this is true,how does that elevate it to god’s word?


      • professorGBFMtm2021 says:

        Why is my comment in moderation when I’m just quoting peoples game savior!?


      • professorGBFMtm2021 says:

        Whats the big deal about a few effs here&there?What nobodys watched HBO before or other churchian channels?


  3. cameron232 says:

    “which made her more angry and indignant. But after a moment, ……. This made her feel loved and she burst into tears.”

    They’re all emotion driven – she cried over a d-mned chicken bone?!!! Mine cried because I shaved my beard – even though we had 20+ years together of me not having a beard – huh?!!!!

    Neurotic to the bone, no doubt about it.


    • elspeth says:

      I am not a crier. Neurotic? Yeah sometimes, but I do not do outbursts of emotion. That is not a universal female triat because I know a couple of other similarly constituted women.

      Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        Intentional hyperbole on my part. Yeah I know you’re not all like that. I know stone cold ladies. You dont generally see we say AWALT in my comments.


      • cameron232 says:


        “There are a few assumptions made that are a natural product, I assume, of reading the sphere. One of them is that confident attractive men who CAN sleep around automatically WILL sleep around without the restraints of religion. It’s not always the case.”

        I guess in my mind multiple girlfriends at a young age usually qualifies as sleeping around. Almost no one, especially non-Christians, dates without having a sexual relationship. Especially guys that party hard and fight hard.

        “Overlapped” the way used is referred to as “monkey-branching” in the sphere. That all just seems like alpha male behavior. There’s this popular myth that alpha males just go around having one-night stands at will but it’s not true. Alpha males usually date short term. The behavior pattern is to test women I suppose – have the fun of the early stages of a relationship (including but not just sex) with a series of women but don’t marry the ones that are too easy or not valuable enough. When they find an attractive and chaste woman like you that’s the one to marry. Young men aren’t known for worrying about things like whether or not they deflower a bunch of other men’s future wives in the process.

        By the way, you shouldn’t be so dismissive of your “good church girl” status. I realize no one is perfect in God’s eyes, but your “good church girl” status makes you valuable in men’s eyes (the ones who would make good husbands). As an attractive good church girl – you’re the prize to the rare alphabux – rejoice and be happy.

        Not “accusing” him of anything… (What would I be accusing him of? Being really attractive?) – Just interested in the contrast between alpha and beta mentality and behavior. A lot of us simply never dealt with the level of temptation he did because we’re not uber-attractive. We’re not any less sinful. God sees what’s in the heart and mind — not just external behavior. – Some of us are probably more sinful than he is.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Elspeth says:

        “I guess in my mind multiple girlfriends at a young age usually qualifies as sleeping around.”

        He would agree with you, now. 100%

        “Young men aren’t known for worrying about things like whether or not they deflower a bunch of other mens’ future wives in the process.

        It is primarily a woman’s job to be concerned with her future husband.

        Liked by 2 people

      • cameron232 says:

        Yeah, I guess the question is whether promiscuity is relative. I mean n=2 is promiscuity/sleeping around. At a practical level, the sphere treats it as relative because it recognizes there are practical differences between n=2, n=10 and n=100 or whatever. For men and women. And the standard of n=1 would cut almost all men out of the possibility of marriage. So modern men have to define promiscuity in relative terms.

        “It is primarily a woman’s job to be concerned with her future husband.”

        It’s been argued in the sphere that, morality aside, it’s more effective to try to control female sexuality than male. I would expect that as a chaste woman you’d argue the above quoted because you kept that discipline/did-the-right thing. Promiscuous women (and those concerned with equality/fairness) will remind us that every ho’ is created by a promiscuous man.

        Liked by 2 people

      • elspeth says:

        “It’s been argued in the sphere that, morality aside, it’s more effective to try to control female sexuality than male. I would expect that as a chaste woman you’d argue the above quoted because you kept that discipline/did-the-right thing. Promiscuous women (and those concerned with equality/fairness) will remind us that every ho’ is created by a promiscuous man.”

        I agree with both statements. It is not either/or. It’s both/and.

        Liked by 1 person

    • elspeth says:

      @ Cam:

      Totally off topic, but a good example on perspective and how we see what’s immediately in front of us versus how others perceive it.

      So, Hearthie shlepped across the continent over the weekend to celebrate my birthday with me. We’d neve rmet in the flesh and it was a total surprise that my kids pulled off without my having a clue. It is NOT easy to get one over on me, so this was big.

      Anyhow, she went on about how beautiful it is in FL, how green it is, how good it smelled to be in the midst of so many trees, etc. She thought this was a lovely, tropical place. Yes, hot. Yes, humid (particularly for a lifelong Cali girl), but still a showcase of a particular part of the beauty of God’s creation. She couldn’t ever live in it, but it was nice to visit for a bit.

      Speaking of nice things to do (while I’m rambling on at you about stuff not related to red pill): If you ever have the time and space to take your bride somewhere for a quick getaway (well, couple hours road trip which is fun, too), I totally recommend this place:


      Okay, I’m done.

      Liked by 2 people

      • cameron232 says:

        Elspeth, I think that’s super sweet that she did that for you. I joke with my wife about how women always fight with each other but sincere female friendship is quite beautiful. My wife has a very good friend who moved away – they end their phone conversations with I love you – very sweet and touching.

        I’ve been out west and I have to admit that I don’t like how dry and dead looking many spots are – lack of vegetation. I think it’s just the heat and humidity for so long here that gets to me.

        Mt. Dora seems like a popular spot for in-Florida tourism – a lot of people go on and on about it.

        Liked by 1 person

      • elspeth says:

        It’s because Mt. Dora is one of the few places which still has imprints of Old Florida throughout it. Old buildings, brick roads, lots of small shops and whatnot.

        The hotel rooms at the inn? They still give you actual keys which I thought was charming and quaint. They try to retain as much of the 1883 vibe as is reasonably possible, which was also nice. It made the place a lot more romantic; at least to us.

        Liked by 1 person

  4. Scott says:

    That story about the chicken bones is the exemplification of why commenter Red Pill Apostle (I think) wrote something in another recent post about having to have a “weekly pep talk with yourself to stay married to her” (or something like that).

    It almost seems better to NOT listen to what she likes on purpose. Be annoying. Do the things she hates on purpose. This gives her purpose and meaning in life. “I have to train my obnoxious boor of a husband because he’s always leaving his clothes on the floor.”

    The more effort you make to listen and do things exactly the way she has articulated, the more hell your life becomes.

    I mean, what would they be doing if they weren’t scanning the horizon for things to complain about you?

    Liked by 1 person

    • Scott says:

      It also offers itself as probably the single most rich for mining area of married life and premarital work that women like Elspeth and others could be doing. (I have no idea if they are or not).

      The malcontontentedness that they are cursed with from the fall can be fought against. It is a monkey on the backs of pretty much every marriage. To tell young women–your daughters, young ladies in the church looking for husbands, whatever that they will have to struggle against this tendency to nag and make their husbands want to jump off a cliff is crucial. There is no peace in a home when the wife cannot stop complaining.

      Let us men work on each other. I can tell husbands all day about their obligations but without the older Christian women admonishing the younger ones about their sarcastic, malcontented, resentful nature and how to fight it from within, there is absolutely no hope for marriage.

      Liked by 5 people

      • elspeth says:

        Yes, Scott. I spend an inordinate amount of time talking to women young and even older and long married.


      • cameron232 says:

        Leave whiskers on the bathroom sink – they LOVE that!

        Actually my wife does tell women not to complain or when they do she tells them things like this: “there are many women out there who don’t have a man who wish they had one to leave his whiskers on the sink.” I got a pretty good one.

        Liked by 3 people

      • professorGBFMtm2021 says:

        Heres more obligations to women!

        Heres more knowledge for dawimminz!!!
        Be commited men!!!


    • Red Pill Apostle says:

      “The more effort you make to listen and do things exactly the way she has articulated, the more hell your life becomes.”

      This is the subtle, or not so subtle, inversion of headship that robs marriages of joy for both parties. When you are married to a woman that does not have the temperament to resist the urge to be discontent, then vigilantly stay on mission. A couple things will happen. She will find plenty of things to complain about that you can brush aside as not relevant to the mission, which helps establish hierarchy and, eventually, she will begin to mold herself to you.

      Liked by 2 people

    • professorGBFMtm2021 says:

      Intimacy&therapy!!!Heres that psychiatry-science study that said rmxpuactive&DAL’were liars!https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/intersections/201509/70-wives-kill-their-husbands-i-read-it-the-internet
      The truth is the FBI dos’nt count wives getting others to murder their husband or them using vechiles to run over husbands!Why is this kept quiet?
      Let gregoire,wilson&others be bold&sexy with this info!!!!
      This is a time for redpill egg shell smashing boldness or going back to blue pill lameness that hates god!?Should’nt we have wives accountability groups to keep them from murdering their simp-beta-cuck husbands?

      Heres a mennonite wedding to keep marriage rabies at bay!!!


    • feeriker says:

      Oxygen. Water. Food. Drama.

      The four elements, in order of criticality, that are essential life sustenance for women.

      Liked by 1 person

    • professorGBFMtm2021 says:

      Heres another thing that the old-skool loving modern manosphere dos’nt mention anymore!!TEAM WOMAN!!!https://hawaiianlibertarian.blogspot.com/2014/01/team-woman.html
      Wheres that raw in-your-face masculinity at now!?Maybe cowering in the corner!?This is why the modern manosphere has failed dawimminz,children&soceity!!
      MANUP or shutup!!Telling me about ”blaming the guys” back in march,huh?Your the churchians who do that with each new post!!!Heres some daring video from a hottie that many manosphereans seem to want to bone to motivate every man to further GREATness!!!

      Keep the secular-whoring going christian-manosphere!!
      Called me a bad behavior-fornicator,huh?
      How many of you agree with these MEN!?
      I say, then, that man requires clothes for nothing else than the covering of the body, for defense against excess of cold and intensity of heat, lest the inclemency of the air injure us. And if this is the object of clothing, see that one kind be not assigned to men and another to women. For it is common to both to be covered, as it is to eat and drink. Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.2 pg.264

      In short, I find no dress cursed by God, except a woman’s dress on a man: for “cursed,” said He, “is every man who clothes himself in woman’s attire.” Tertullian (A.D. 198) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.3 pg. 71

      Then, too, as in His law it is declared that the man is cursed who attires himself in female garments, what must be His judgment of the pantomime, who is even brought up to play the woman! Tertullian (A.D. 198) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.3 pg.89

      Nay, there is more than this: for even Christ, we shall find, has ordinary raiment; Paul, too, has his cloak. Tertullian (A.D. 198) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.3 pg. 97-98

      But if any necessity arises, commanding the presence of married women, let them be well clothed–without by raiment, within by modesty. Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.2 pg.252

      For these superfluous and diaphanous materials are the proof of a weak mind, covering as they do the shame of the body with a slender veil. For luxurious clothing, which cannot conceal the shape of the body, is no more a covering. For such clothing, falling close to the body, takes its form more easily, and adhering as it were to the flesh, receives its shape, and marks out the woman’s figure, so that the whole make of the body is visible to spectators, though not seeing the body itself. Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.2 pg.265

      Let the woman observe this, further. Let her be entirely covered, unless she happen to be at home. For that style of dress is grave, and protects from being gazed at. And she will never fall, who puts before her eyes modesty, and her shawl; nor will she invite another to fall into sin by uncovering her face. For this is the wish of the Word, since it is becoming for her to pray veiled. Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.2 pg.290

      Touching modesty of dress and ornamentation, indeed, the prescription of Peter likewise is plain, checking as he does with the same mouth, because with the same Spirit, as Paul, the glory of garments, and the pride of gold, and the meretricious elaboration of the hair. Tertullian (A.D. 198) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.3 pg. 687

      You call yourself wealthy and rich; but Paul meets your riches, and with his own voice prescribes for the moderating of your dress and ornament within a just limit. “Let women,” said he, “adorn themselves with shamefacedness and sobriety, not with broidered hair, nor gold, nor pearls, nor costly array, but as becomes women professing chastity, with a good conversation.” Also Peter consents to these same precepts, and says, “Let there be in the woman not the outward adorning of array, or gold, or apparel, but the adorning of the heart.” …and draw the sighs of young men after you, nourish the lust of concupiscence, and inflame the fuel of sighs, so that, although you yourself perish not, yet you cause others to perish, and offer yourself, as it were, a sword or poison to the spectators; you cannot be excused on the pretense that you are chaste and modest in mind. Your shameful dress and immodest ornament accuse you; nor can you be counted now among Christ’s maidens and virgins, since you live in such a manner as to make yourselves objects of desire. Cyprian (A.D. 250) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.5 pg.432
      Thes guys are not your fornication heroes are they?
      Keep wearing peacock hats guys while blaming these guys for your sins!!!

      Liked by 1 person

  5. Scott says:

    Back in the early 2010’s a sort of cottage movement of “Proverbs 31” groups started popping up. There was even a FB group called “Fort Hood Proverbs 31 wives”

    And of course, the entire point of the text was missed. I am no Bible scholar, but I can read and here’s my take on Proverbs 31.

    Solomons mom, an older woman now says to her son: “Boy. Now that you are looking for a wife, here’s a bunch of characteristics you should be looking for. And by the way, you probably won’t find.”

    In that context, these groups SHOULD have been accountability groups for women to aspire to the eponymous “excellent wife” found in the text, knowing that they could never actually live up to it.

    Nope. These groups quickly deteriorated into “you go grrrrrrrrrl” sessions about how pretty much all woman are excellent wives by the fact that they exist. Fail.

    Too bad.

    Liked by 6 people

  6. Lastmod says:

    putting up with all of this for some sex……and I was called an addict, crazy and insane

    Liked by 5 people

  7. professorGBFMtm2021 says:

    Heres women fighting to save men money!!!

    These women so beatifulY&nice!!
    Here was my first serious stalker named rose back in jr.high as I &the local MGTOW rode our harleys!!!

    Her dad said she&I was bad but she did’nt care she was following her kind ”nice”guy loving heart!!!
    Don’t get offended ladies!!!Heres more your going to hell preaching from churchians!!!

    You must go to bed tired or hell for you boys who can shave!!!


    • Lastmod says:

      I remember this sermon by Chandler. At the time in my mens “accountability group” at The Salvation Army, this was shown. The older men nodded in silent agreement, but you know….none of them did that or put up with that in THEIR home.

      This is where I began to actually think….many men…..didn’t want younger men to marry. They would set these impossible standards to live up to to “deserve” a wife, by gods grace…….but they just were “themselves” and women just came up to them.

      I then realized that Chandler doesn’t believe one word of this. He just says it because he knows who the demographic is and who is putting money in that collection plate.

      Chandler also met his wife when he was like 23 working at a church camp and she was 15 or 16. You as a man in YOUR church try this? You would be run out by all the “real authentic” men there, unless you’re good looking, the pastos son, or the praise leader.

      This is why I cannot belong to a church anymore. No place for the lower 80% of men, they just have to be the audience and be lectured to on anything and everything.

      Liked by 2 people

      • professorGBFMtm2021 says:

        Your talking about the fake alpha amogsThese ”men” live just to push around men that are actualy the kind guys they’ll never be!!) who think they can at least push around younger men-types to look good&nice in front of women for poon,cash&prizes like DAL’ always said too!!!If I was in your shoes jason I would’nt think of going to church either more than likely!


  8. Lastmod says:

    Oh……a question. So women “don’t” have character, or its inborn as pure evil? The man (again) has to mold, build, Game, tease, belittle, lead, teach, admonish…..

    So why not just marry a very HOT woman, and teach her…..maybe Chandler is on to something. Doing all of this stuff, plus work, plus everything else, plus your masculine hobbies (you all are restoring 1960’s Mopars on the side I am sure, plus the gym, plus “leadership” in church……yeah a man woule be exhausetd every night.

    Not worth it. I would have expected my wife to have some accountability to her actions and responsibility for them. So why did you get married? Because “the bible” told you to? Just for sex…and all this effort at home, in church, on theese forums / blogs to just get that to me is sounding more and more insane. Hence MGTOW.

    Liked by 3 people

    • professorGBFMtm2021 says:

      These churchian-types won’t hear of supermodels being unconditionaly loved for their minds&I only restore harleys like other responsible dedicated men-types like rollo&arron sleazy!!
      I actualy like talking to delicate ”nice”guy loving wimminz as we stroll parks&beaches hand in hand together for america&its glorious future!!!


    • Scott says:

      Men and women have different challenges, or demons to do battle with based on the specifics of the curse (their fallen nature).

      (Also, you don’t have to be Christian to understand this, as it is totally observable phenomena)

      Currently, we (our “society”) heavily rely on men to fight their nature, and encourage women to give in to theirs.

      Liked by 8 people

      • professorGBFMtm2021 says:

        Why don’t all the young dudes be like I&SAM the pickiest men of feminine-minded women?Then there would be no need of artificial GAME!!!


    • cameron232 says:

      “So why did you get married? “

      To own a woman’s feminine beauty (mine!!!), to enjoy that feminine beauty in various ways, the ultimate way being sex, and to love the children that result from my desire for her feminine beauty.

      I can’t relate to SAM’s “conquest” of a woman mentality but I can relate to his “ownership” over her mentality. I think that’s basic to almost all men.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Lastmod says:

        There is no conquest Cameron, you spend your whole marrige doing this.

        Liked by 2 people

      • cameron232 says:

        Lastmod, that’s a specific reference to something Elspeth referred to wrt her husband’s mentality. As an alpha male he has that sort of mentality. As a beta male, I can’t relate to that. Not good or bad – neither he or I are better men – just different.

        Liked by 2 people

      • cameron232 says:

        I guess I never related to that – never saw a woman as a notch or potential notch on my belt. Not as a conquest. Not as a “success.” I wanted a girl, ONE GIRL who I was attracted to who felt the same way. I did not have the alpha mentality – the guy who slept with a gal and bragged to his buddies (and usually half the school) as if he accomplished something. What did you accomplish besides sleeping with another man’s future wife and emptying your gonads into her?

        But women find the gonad-emptiers attractive. Life’s not fair – I don’t have to tell you that.


      • elspeth says:

        It’s interesting, Cameron. That jump from my husband’s thought of “conquest” to the notion of racking up notches, because that is never who he was. He actually found his brothers’ way of being (as they dated way, way more women than he did) as pretty distasteful, even as a single guy.

        I’m not sure your understanding of conquest is the same as his. Huh. Curious.

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        Yeah it’s a single word so there’s the possibility of different interpretations.

        Most men who use this word are promiscuous men who are racking up notches (even if it isn’t 100 or whatever) – once you conquer what else is there to do but move to the next? Conquer means you’re done.

        They don’t usually mean “subdue her into a monogamous marriage” with this word conquest. To me “ownership” is much more typical of the monogamous man mentality.

        It’s also possible he was a “conquerer” who changed and became an “owner.” People can change – God changes them – praise God.

        But he may use this word different – I can’t judge a man I don’t even know.


      • elspeth says:

        He’s always been super picky, LOL. Yeah, I know that sounds self-serving, but in my observation, men who are interested purely conquest have sliding scales of standards. And they don’t marry at 21, either, pregnant girlfriend or not.

        Alright. Time to go. Glad you guys are safe, Cam. I thought you, your bride and brood were on the less safe west coast.

        Liked by 2 people

      • caterpillar345 says:

        Elspeth – what would you say SAM’s understanding of “conquest” is?


      • Elspeth says:


        You see something you want. You go for it.

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        @E, I could see that as a legitimate definition of conquest – the idea of a more active, less passive approach to a woman or women – “I go for it!”

        I guess conquest applied to a single woman only – to me would suggest a very high value woman and/or a woman who plays hard to get (or a good girl) – in other words a challenge and one worth pursuing. It would have to be something like this in order to not mean a promiscuous mentality. A conquest man normally means a notch count guy. A friend of my wife’s – she was her husband’s 18th conquest – and he was pretty young when they got together. Their marriage has been nothing but grief for her but then again he’s not a Christian man and doesn’t pretend to be.

        There’s also just context that matters. If it’s multiple/serial conquests then yeah – conquest is alpha promiscuity. If your wife is your only or I suppose final “conquest” then yeah that’s something different I guess.


      • Scott says:

        It’s an interesting sub conversation

        Mychael works in a very high octane/testosterone environment (ER) surrounded by cops, firefighters, ER docs, and such. I am sure some of them have hit on her, or have crushes on her.

        I don’t worry about it at all, because she’s “mine” and is really clear about that.

        Liked by 5 people

      • elspeth says:

        There are a few assumptions made that are a natural product, I assume, of reading the sphere. One of them is that confident attractive men who CAN sleep around automatically WILL sleep around without the restraints of religion. It’s not always the case.

        My husband had a number of girlfriends before I met him. He wasn’t a monk. We don’t really discuss it (because why would we since he’s been a faithful husband?), but I “overlapped” another relationship that was phasing out when he met me. It’s not like he was married. I was a little hard to get, and I was a “good church girl” and all the things.

        But my husband puts it this way. A cute, shapely girl in some super short shorts and a low cut tank top is really nice to look at, but the ease with which she shows that much skin in public is an indication that she isn’t all that shy about showing what’s left to the imagination. And how many other men have seen it? And is she a walking petri dish? And is she worth the hassle because he has been the unfortunate guy trying to move on from a “refuses to let go” relationship. And on and on it goes. So she had to be really worth the hassle. Some women he decided were worth the hassle, and he paid the price for his folly. A steep price, in one case. But the girls he wanted and/or thought were worth the hassle, I guess you could say he “conquered”, although semi-mostly-serial monogamy was his preferred dating method.

        All that to say, not every man lets his gonads lead him around just because he has the option of satisfying everything his eyes see. Some men have foresight and discipline and a vision of the world and of life, and of women, that doesn’t allow us the power to overcome their wills.

        I promised Jack I’d say less, so I need to say less. I hope this long windy comment hits all the answers to the questions and intimations offered.

        Liked by 2 people

      • cameron232 says:

        I supposed what interested me (without dissecting the heck out of your personal life) was just the contrast between owning and conquering where I can relate to one mentality but not the other. It was not my intention to pry into your business. Conquering may just mean a more aggressive man, one that doesn’t wait for the girl to come to him like I did – no big deal or reason to read too much into one word.

        Overlapping in a relationship – I can see how a man would end something with a girl who doesn’t look like she will be a good wife – and definitely trade up to you (a good wife and mother). That’s a great trade, a no-brainer.

        Can totally agree with his “petri dish” comment- I have the same reaction – “where has that girl been, what does she have?”

        In the end he “owned” the woman that is worth owning. That’s all that really matters whether you were “conquered” or not.

        sorry not trying to suck you back in – just fascinating

        Liked by 1 person

  9. Lastmod says:

    Just seems to me, Scott, from this post, that women have a fallen nature and men have to “man up” and fix it by leaving hair in the sink after shaving, and fighting over chicken bones. Do you see what I am saying? My parents read aloud to each other in front of me and my brother. They laughed. They talked. My father never “belittled” my mother…, and my mom, to her credit, didn’t behave like some of the wives I have read about here. SO….it comes back to the phrase which I too hate “so you didn’t vett her properly”

    I don’t know. Just a billion pounds of effort to maybe have an “okay” marriage, or just throw it all to the wind and say “she has to have the viscereal / submissive look when she first meets you or you’re doomed”

    I just don’t think or believe the ‘sphere here is correct, or has the answers……… I just expected more from people in general. After my horrid addiction, problems…… I had to just learn “I was wrong” and leave it at that. Women can’t seem to do this, or don’t want to….and now it’s your job “as a man” to do this for her……sounds exhausting, and overall futile.

    Liked by 3 people

    • Scott says:

      This is another way of saying the same thing.

      Some years back, Christina Hoff Sommers pointed out that the options for mens life path are getting smaller and smaller, (stuff men can acceptably aspire to be, be interested in, etc) while for women the sky had become the limit.

      It is related to the same issue, on a macro scale. Men are STILL being held to a “chivalry/gentleman/whatever” standard, while nothing is sacred when it comes to women’s private or public behavior (or choice of careers, etc).

      It actually kind of explains the explosion of trans women. These men are probably subconsciously trying to short circuit the pigeon hole they are being shunted into by pretending to be women so they can “have it all (too)”

      Liked by 2 people

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        The good news for men is that the effort to become a woman has been greatly reduced. Instead of having to actually try and look like a woman men have to do is choose to identify as female and enforce the use of the correct pronoun to match their feeling for the day. Progress!

        Liked by 3 people

      • professorGBFMtm2021 says:

        Listen this song from ’86!It dos’nt sound like the anthem for the few sane men&women who have survived the last 50+ years of feminism overload?


    • Red Pill Apostle says:

      Futile? Maybe? We’ll see as there is progress. I will attest that much of what I have found works with Mrs. A are the principles and effort I use raising my children. Vetting … I was blind to what I really needed to look for and it led to all sorts of issues. You do not like the term, so think of it more as searching for those characteristics that will make work as a man and husband easier so the relationship will be more rewarding.

      “Just seems to me, Scott, from this post, that women have a fallen nature and men have to “man up” and fix it…”

      Every word of this is true as a trend. I missed that Mrs. A expected her father to bend to her whims and cater to her. I was taught that this is what men do for women by my own father. I also did not know how to judge her father’s concern that I not stop her graduate school educational goals if she where to marry me. What I walked into was a wife that expected me to take over for her father’s catering, with her father as the back up if I didn’t meet her expectations, but not have the same responsibilities towards her husband. It was the fertile ground solipsism needed to flourish.

      “I just expected more from people in general.” is on the right track and had I known to enforce those expectations, instead of acting out the assumption that Mrs. A was my equal, things may have been different. You are very correct in that it is “a billions pounds of effort”. For me the jury is still out on the sentiment that you seem to express that for marriage in its current state, the juice may not be worth the squeeze.


    • professorGBFMtm2021 says:

      Heres the anthem!!!


  10. professorGBFMtm2021 says:

    Hey scott!!Here it is!!http://www.femulate.org/2021/04/why-would-anyone-want-to-be-woman.html
    The other men thought this guy was going to be easy to poke as most he-man leader-types with strong mission statements on paper hope for!!!Of course the ones realy ”allowed” to be MEN are either rich noble idealistic men or lesbians that betas&cucks want to bone for daladies protection!!
    I was thinking this was true back in daold first true MGTOW glory days of riding harleys.going nuclear&not giving or taking a $hit!!
    Heres video of 99% of churches to come showing idealistic love to trans!!!

    Is your church next is the question,right!?
    The old men in church will have plenty of MINZUP dreams after this happens everywhere!!!!


  11. lastholdout says:

    “Let us men work on each other. I can tell husbands all day about their obligations but without the older Christian women admonishing the younger ones about their sarcastic, malcontented, resentful nature and how to fight it from within, there is absolutely no hope for marriage.”

    It’s not happening in the churches – in any form. I’m convinced that pressure is needed on the church leaders. There is nothing wrong with pastors taking on some of these topics in the pulpit. There is a certain amount of accountability when these matters are spoken of in the corporate setting. Secrecy is the devil’s opportunity.

    On the other hand, there are women who have made it their mission to take on the role of the “older Christian women” through books and blogs. April Cassidy does a fine job. Here she calls out churchians.

    Liked by 2 people

  12. Yes, physical “candy” (as well as other LAMPS qualities) can be an effective “lure” to draw her in (if he has it), but this too is not enough to achieve sanctification. A man must address the spiritual interaction, and not only the physical.

    Yeah, I agree. Wrote on that waaay back when.


    I hope people mostly understand my general points which is that:

    A. You should be doing what the Bible says which is be the head, love her for the purpose of sanctification, etc. The goal is obviously sanctification, and that’s really the main thing that can help fight against unrestrained hypergamy and sin.

    B. It would be wise to do things that can influence your wife (and others) in a positive manner. Attraction is one of those.

    In that comment I was discussing #2 and not #1.

    Once again, the exception proves the rule. Ultimately, it is about maintaining Headship, which goes back to my first point. The only way that a man can assert Headship, and come across as more masculine than feminine, is by improving his character, or as past Manospherians have put it, “You can’t fake being Alpha. You actually have to become a better man!”

    Yeah, this is the big quibble about game across the ‘sphere I think. Being more charismatic in whatever way you do it does help. There’s only so much “marketing” (e.g. social charisma) that you can do to make a bad product look good.

    But building a stronger foundation or product with mission, masculinity, godliness, and such makes the product/foundation strong. Then when you work on charisma and whatnot it’s much, much easier to “market” a better product. Kind of like how the attractive man tends to get the benefit of the doubt over the unattractive man.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Lastmod says:

      “You actually have to become a better man!”

      Yes, you all do well.

      Defined on what terms? Roosh was convinced he was a “better man” when he wrote books like the “Bang Europe” series. He was getting hot women through being “charismatic” and the usual cocky-funny lines on women who didn’t know better evidently.

      Rollo is convinced he’s better than all of us because he published books.

      So being better. Better at “what”? Being a Christian? Plenty of solid men are Christian… and have no reason to boast as such, and hence they are unknown for the fact they live their faith. What woman is going to notice or care, or even think about a man who is living his faith today? Ah… If he is “really hot” physically they will… Otherwise “being a better man” here will reap nothing… Well, not in this life….. But this life counts more evidently…. even in the Christian world by the actions I see / witnessed.

      I’m a better man than I was a two decades ago. It really has given me nothing aside from being able to sleep better at night.

      Better as in competition? Well…… All men are losers to compared to most of you. They will never be “better” at anything. I dance well, can dress “better” than most men style wise for my age and I can make a good cup of coffee. I worked well with children in church… and not a masculine trait, despite most boys don’t have a father, or one that is involved (those men are too busy being real men evidently).

      Being a better man, like the way you want your coffee, how you want your steak cooked is pretty subjective. This “abundance mentality” thing of confidence, and whatever works only if you have the genetics to back it up. It’s sad, but a truism of the world today.

      Again, did Jesus punch evildoers in the mouth? Did he stop on his journey and say, “Wait men, we gotta do some reps, and go to the local gymnasium here in Jericho before we minister.”

      Even the ‘word of god’ tells us he had “no comeliness about him that we should be attracted to him.”

      And he was the greatest man that ever lived according to believers…… and yet….. I see little or no Jesus being implemented in most men’s real life.

      Become a better man! Just get confidence! Just take a shower! Just study STEM! Just walk up to women and talk to them.

      It goes on…

      Liked by 3 people

      • professorGBFMtm2021 says:

        Jason,heres whose terms!!From boundless rules for men,not one rule for wimminz site
        The Marks of Manhood
        OCTOBER 30, 2009
        When does a boy become a man? (Hint: It’s not your age.) Find out if you have what it takes to be a godly man. The Bible is clear about a man’s responsibility to exercise spiritual maturity and spiritual leadership. Of course, this spiritual maturity takes time to develop, and it is a gift of the Holy Spirit working within the life of the believer. The disciplines of the Christian life, including prayer and serious Bible study, are among the means God uses to mold a boy into a man and to bring spiritual maturity into the life of one who is charged to lead a wife and family.This spiritual leadership is central to the Christian vision of marriage and family life. A man’s spiritual leadership is not a matter of dictatorial power, but of firm and credible spiritual leadership and influence. A man must be ready to lead his wife and his children in a way that will honor God, demonstrate godliness, inculcate Christian character, and lead his family to desire Christ and to seek God’s glory.
        Spiritual maturity is a mark of true Christian manhood, and a spiritually immature man is, in at least this crucial sense, spiritually just a boy.
        2. Personal maturity sufficient to be a responsible husband and father.
        True masculinity is not a matter of exhibiting supposedly masculine characteristics devoid of the context of responsibility. In the Bible, a man is called to fulfill his role as husband and father. Unless granted the gift of celibacy for gospel service, the Christian boy is to aim for marriage and fatherhood. This is assuredly a counter-cultural assertion, but the role of husband and father is central to manhood.Marriage is unparalleled in its effect on men, as it channels their energies and directs their responsibilities to the devoted covenant of marriage and the grace-filled civilization of the family. They must aspire to be the kind of man a Christian woman would gladly marry and children will trust, respect and obey.
        3. Economic maturity sufficient to hold an adult job and handle money.
        Advertisers and marketers know where to aim their messages — directly at adolescent boys and young men. This particular segment of the population is inordinately attracted to material goods, popular entertainment, sporting events and other consumer options. The portrait of young manhood made popular in the media and presented as normal through entertainment is characterized by economic carelessness, self-centeredness and laziness.
        A real man knows how to hold a job, handle money with responsibility, and take care of the needs of his wife and family. A failure to develop economic maturity means that these young men often float from job to job, and take years to “find themselves” in terms of career and vocation.Once again, an extended adolescence marks a huge segment of today’s young male population. Slothfulness, laziness and economic carelessness are marks of immaturity. A real man knows how to earn, manage and respect money. A Christian man understands the danger that comes from the love of money and fulfills his responsibility as a Christian steward.4. Physical maturity sufficient to work and protect a family.Unless afflicted by injury or illness, a boy should develop the physical maturity that, by stature and strength, marks recognizable manhood. Of course, men come in many sizes and demonstrate different levels of physical strength, but common to all men is a maturity, through which a man demonstrates his masculinity by movement, confidence and strength.

        A man must be ready to put his physical strength on the line to protect his wife and children and to fulfill his God-assigned tasks. A boy must be taught to channel his developing strength and emerging size into a self-consciousness of responsibility, recognizing that adult strength is to be combined with adult responsibility and true maturity.
        5. Sexual maturity sufficient to marry and fulfill God’s purposes.Even as the society celebrates sex in every form and at every age, the true Christian man practices sexual integrity, avoiding pornography, fornication, all forms of sexual promiscuity and corruption. He understands the danger of lust, but rejoices in the sexual capacity and reproductive power God has put within him, committing himself to find a wife, and to earn her love, trust and admiration — and eventually to win her hand in marriage.
        It’s critical that men respect this incredible gift, and to protect this gift until, within the context of holy marriage, they are able to fulfill this gift, love their wives and look to God’s gift of children. Male sexuality separated from the context and integrity of marriage is an explosive and dangerous reality. The boy must understand, even as he travels through the road of puberty and an awakened sexuality, that he is accountable to God for his stewardship of this great gift.6. Moral maturity sufficient to lead as an example of righteousness.6. Moral maturity sufficient to lead as an example of righteousness.
        7. Ethical maturity sufficient to make responsible decisions.To be a man is to make decisions. One of the most fundamental tasks of leadership is decision-making. The indecisiveness of so many contemporary males is evidence of a stunted manhood.
        Of course, a man does not rush to a decision without thought, consideration or care, but a man does put himself on the line in making a decision — and making it stick. This requires an extension of moral responsibility into mature ethical decision-making that brings glory to God, is faithful to God’s Word and is open to moral scrutiny. A real man knows how to make a decision and live with its consequences — even if that means that he must later acknowledge that he has learned by making a bad decision, and then by making the appropriate correction.
        8. Worldview maturity sufficient to understand what is really important.
        An inversion of values marks our postmodern age, and the predicament of modern manhood is made all the more perplexing by the fact that many men lack the capacity of consistent worldview thinking. For the Christian, this is doubly tragic, for our Christian discipleship must be demonstrated in the development of a Christian mind.

        The Christian man must understand how to interpret and evaluate issues across the spectrum of politics, economics, morality, entertainment, education and a seemingly endless list of other fields. The absence of consistent biblical worldview thinking is a key mark of spiritual immaturity.
        A boy must learn how to translate Christian truth into genuine Christian thinking. He must learn how to defend biblical truth before his peers and in the public square, and he must acquire the ability to extend Christian thinking, based on biblical principles, to every arena of life.9. Relational maturity sufficient to understand and respect others.
        Psychologists now talk of “emotional intelligence,” or EQ, as a major factor in personal development. While the world has given much attention to IQ, EQ is just as important. Individuals who lack the ability to relate to others are destined to fail at some of life’s most significant challenges and will not fulfill some of their most important responsibilities and roles.

        By nature, many boys are inwardly directed. While girls learn how to read emotional signals and connect, many boys lack the capacity to do so, and seemingly fail to understand the absence of these skills. While a man is to demonstrate emotional strength, constancy, and steadfastness, he must be able to relate to his wife, his children, his peers, his colleagues and a host of others in a way that demonstrates respect, understanding and appropriate empathy. This will not be learned by entering into the privatized world experienced by many male adolescents.
        10. Social maturity sufficient to make a contribution to society.While the arena of the home is an essential and inescapable focus of a man’s responsibility, he is also called out of the home into the workplace and the larger world as a witness, and as one who will make a contribution to the common good.

        God has created human beings as social creatures, and even though our ultimate citizenship is in heaven, we must also fulfill our citizenship on earth. A boy must learn to fulfill a political responsibility as a citizen, and a moral responsibility as a member of a human community. The Christian man bears a civilizational responsibility, and boys must be taught to see themselves as shapers of the society even as the church is identified by our Lord as both salt and light.

        Similarly, a Christian man must learn how to relate to unbelievers, both as witness and as fellow citizens of an earthly kingdom.
        11. Verbal maturity sufficient to communicate and articulate as a man.
        A man must be able to speak, to be understood and to communicate in a way that will honor God and convey God’s truth to others. Beyond the context of conversation, a boy must learn how to speak before larger groups, overcoming the natural intimidation and fear that comes from looking at a crowd, opening one’s mouth and projecting words.

        Though not all men will become public speakers, every man should have the ability to take his ground, frame his words, and make his case when truth is under fire and when belief and conviction must be translated into argument.12. Character maturity sufficient to demonstrate courage under fire.13. Biblical maturity sufficient to lead at some level in the church.
        A close look at many churches will reveal that a central problem is a lack of biblical maturity among the men of the congregation and a lack of biblical knowledge that leaves men ill-equipped and completely unprepared to exercise spiritual leadership.

        Boys must know their way around the biblical text and feel at home in the study of God’s Word. They must stand ready to take their place as leaders in the local church.

        While God has appointed specific officers for his church — men who are specially gifted and publicly called — every man should fulfill some leadership responsibility within the life of the congregation. For some men, this may mean a less public role of leadership than is the case with others. In any event, a man should be able to teach someone, and to lead in some ministry, translating his personal discipleship into the fulfillment of a godly call.

        There is a role of leadership for every man in every church, whether that role is public or private, large or small, official or unofficial. A man should know how to pray before others, to present the Gospel and to stand in the gap where a leadership need is apparent.

        All these rules&musts!!!Then wheresdamen?REALLY?https://churchformen.com/
        David murrow wonders why men hate church&feminists like himself too!?Just like redpillers wonder why did most young men form the newer MGTOW&the incel insurrection!?All those rules&musts up above mainly!Do they even beleive in the simple faith that men,women&children who could’nt read&write beleived in?

        Liked by 1 person

      • @ Lastmod

        You’re confusing two different things.

        No one is saying you should lift or you must be more attractive or any of the things you mentioned to be a Christian.

        What people including me are saying is that it’s a wise thing to work on various physical, spiritual, emotional, and mental traits that are attractive if you want to be married. Especially in these last 20+ years with the cultural disruptions to marriage formation.

        It’s not a secret that men want to be with beautiful women and women want to be with PSALM traits men.


  13. Lastmod says:

    Oh professor…… First, I have no idea who this Mohler (Moler? Molar?) person is. He says boys are to fulfill their roles as husband and father. Well, here in the ‘sphere, “God promises you nothing. Suffer and burn if you can’t find a wife. It’s your own fault….. But please buy my book about how to find a Godly wife that doesn’t exist. It’s on Amazon btw…”

    So if a boy cannot fulfill this duty?? Does he go to the “Lake of Fire” because he could not?

    And this, this is rich…

    “While God has appointed specific officers for his church — men who are specially gifted and publicly called — every man should fulfill some leadership responsibility within the life of the congregation. For some men, this may mean a less public role of leadership than is the case with others. In any event, a man should be able to teach someone, and to lead in some ministry, translating his personal discipleship into the fulfillment of a godly call…”

    Strictly for the birds. Who is popular gets to lead, and a few people ALL the gifts, a few men might have one, and for the rest of the unwashed masses of them, “it’s gods timing, well… I mean ‘He’ will decide when you can lead… Trust us. Oh, we noticed you didn’t commit to the new building project that is going to “reach out” and save this whole city and bring it to Jesus… How much can you pledge this month? God wants a cherry giver!!!!!!!!!!!”

    Its a load of excrement. If the church actually believed the Gospel and men in LEADERSHIP were actually qualified and actually had an attitude like Jesus (can teach, had wisdom, had patience, had actual advice, and could tell the truth…… and other solid traits), then the pews would be filled.

    And we can’t have that!!! Actually helping men?????? No way! Only “the elect” and men with Egos the size of god can lead.

    Liked by 2 people

  14. Lastmod says:

    This needs a SEPERATE entry:

    “Economic maturity sufficient to hold an adult job and handle money.
    Advertisers and marketers know where to aim their messages — directly at adolescent boys and young men. This particular segment of the population is inordinately attracted to material goods, popular entertainment, sporting events and other consumer options”

    Except when the cool, frat boy pastor wants to take “the guys” to a football game (rolls eyes).

    While I agree there are plenty of distractions material wise living in a modern capitalistic culture so to speak, I will say:

    Rubbish. I worked retail. Clothing in high school and college. I “LIKE” shopping for clothing. Not a shopaholic, but when I do go out to buy clothing… It’s an event (London 2019). I will spend a whole day looking at shoes, shirts, trying stuff on. I like it. I don’t maxx the cards, nor do I live like “a fool and his money is some party!”

    FACT: Most clothing stores in the USA and UK are for WOMEN. Even in Macys, Nordstroms, Dillards… Most, over 75% of the clothing retail space is for WOMEN. What is for men? A large Levis section. a few ties, ugly… UGLY… styles today btw… and FEMME in color (mauve, purple, pink, periwinkle). Most younger boys have to shop at a skateshop (skatefashion) which only logos. Boutiques, small shops, all for women or with a small section for men.

    Spare me: Men’s Warehouse

    In London, at Harrods in the MENS department of Burberry. The tailor was a man, The floor supervisor was a man. The sales rep was a man….. The “butter” was an attractive (not slutty) but classy gal who would help you, smile, gently butter you up and friendly-flirt (so you would buy more). High gloss strip club????? Maybe with no clothing taken off and no sex…. But she knew her job well, and was genuine about how she acted……..

    Waiting for my shirts to get tailored, she brought a tea, chatted with you. Seemed interested. A professional “hostess” of sorts. I tipped her well when I left. Not to show off, but she did her job. I felt like a million bucks and was happy. A great SHOPPING experience.

    SO this guy has no clue. Women decide most of what a budget is for now with couples….. Women are the ones who have zero clue about money. Zero.

    Liked by 3 people

    • professorGBFMtm2021 says:

      YEP!90% of spending is ”decided”(DEMANDED!) by women!As use to be talked about in the manosphere years ago!

      Heres some more ”smart” money women!!


  15. Lastmod says:

    The Only Christian in the room, and real man DS said:

    “You’re confusing two different things.

    No one is saying you should lift or you must be more attractive or any of the things you mentioned to be a Christian.

    What people including me are saying is that it’s a wise thing to work on various physical, spiritual, emotional, and mental traits that are attractive if you want to be married. Especially in these last 20+ years with the cultural disruptions to marriage formation.

    It’s not a secret that men want to be with beautiful women and women want to be with PSALM traits men”

    Jesus didn’t mention any of these traits in his ministry. Jesus told his followers to love God, and their neighbor. Nothing about status….. Why was Jesus put on earth, born into humble conditions? God could have had him be born in the powerful Tribe of Levi, and he could have become a chief priest and reformed the whole thing from the top. It’s because of the way that God wanted to teach us. You don’t need to born of status to follow him. So status to the Christian is out.

    Money? Jesus talked a lot about money, and he never once bragged, boasted or spoke about how much he “could have made” while employed as a carpenter. He never told followers, or the “crowds” to “just get a good job in the Roman civil service” or “You all should learn Latin so you men can find a better job, and find a beautiful woman to marry.”

    Most of the history of this faith, and its followers have been poor. I guess their faith, and following of tradition was good enough. (Okay Scott, you got me… Tradition can be a glue.) Every man is not going to be like DS, a genius. Besides, who is gonna pick up your garbage? Who is gonna make sure your Amazon packages are delivered? These men obviously don’t deserve “beautiful women” because they don’t have money.

    Power? Most Christian leaders, and not just the ‘pastor’ mind you, his yes-men, the praise leader (ughhhhh modern praise is so awful) are so drunk on their own, its a turn-off for people to come to the faith. It’s one of the reasons why I left. They don’t believe a word of it.

    Looks? Well, on men today it is the ONLY thing that matters. You have to have that initial spark. Are beautiful women (by your logic) “worthy” of dating, or to be a wife, a mother, and a partner? Is your wife on the cover of Vogue? J Crew or LL Bean model? No??? She’s not beautiful. She’s probably pretty, but average, and I am sure she is a doormat to anything you say.

    Most men are straight up genetically unfit. Watch your mouth and tongue with swipes of “men are just fat and lazy” because many are not… and now even above average looking men are being left out because they were not LUCKY like you, born with the right height, body frame, bone mass, and looks. You would last ONE day in my shoes demanding your god to do something about it. Men who say clap-trap like you have NEVER had to be single, dateless, and invisible their whole lives to women. You probably could kick my ass, but if I ever met you face to face, and you started sprouting this PSALM stuff, you had better be reading out of the Bible while trying to teach me a Psalm, or else you might get decked. Sure, you would kick my ass… but I’d get a good fist in laid on you.

    This cheapens your word of god… using the term Psalm as a way to get “women to like you”. You should be slapped on general principles for that.

    Liked by 1 person

    • cameron232 says:

      Re: poor/lousy followers I guess the “bishop” churches (Orthodox/Catholic) have a place for both saints and sinners. The red hot and lukewarm. The serious Christian and the Latina prostitute sinner you mentioned (Fresno?) awhile. I dont just mean “they dont kick you out” I mean theologically a place for both types. A home for saints and a hospital for sinners. A place for people who will barely manage to let God save them. No it isn’t an excuse for half arsed Christianity it’s for people as they are and always have been.

      Re: lifting weights I have had the thought: “would the Apostles be doing this” All I can say is my exercise routine has shifted to less vanity focused stuff.


      • Lastmod says:

        the disciples were mostly fishermen. It wasn’t a “Union job and good provision” and it was very hard work, from work in itself, I am sure they were pretty fit. Also they walked everywhere…….yes, they got a donkey for Jesus to ride into Jerusalem……..

        But as for “going to the gymnasium”…to get muscles and “attract beautiful women” is doubtful. They did have gymnasiums back in thise times in that part of the world (Greek past influences, and the current Roman administration) I honestly think Jesus and the disciples going to them was doubtful. The gym, like theater back then was very sexually charged, bawdy….and not of “gods people” or behavior.

        In todays hyper-masculinity and the rigid lines in this sphere of wehat it takes to be a real man, sure…its the only thing that matters. Just ask DS. He’ll tell you.

        We are probably in a Christian sense to “take care of our bodies” because it is a creation of god type of thing……so going to the gym isn’t bad, nor is eating right, nor is walking, nor is actually following the bible…..

        Most people are average looking, most people in the past found someone….and in jesus’s time, marriages were arranged. You didn’t hang out in the temple courts waiyting to “chat up the girl you liked” after sabbath. Unless you were someone like David….you just did what you pleased and god still rewarded you.

        Same today. Some are blessed. SOme get a break here and there, and most have to live under a weight of “this faith is pure suffering”

        No hope.

        Liked by 1 person

    • @ lastmod

      You’re still conflating being a Christian with the utility of attraction. One does not need to have any of these things to be a Christian, but they have some value if you want to do them. It’s discretionary wisdom. Don’t want to do it? Don’t do it. If you think it will help with certain situation? Do it.

      1 Tim 4:8 For bodily exercise has some value, but godliness has value in all things, having the promise of the life which is now, and of that which is to come.

      Christians should be focused on godliness, but saying that things like exercise is against what Jesus is saying is not Biblical. What is some value? That some value is that exercise and musculature are generally useful as a man and for attraction if you desire a wife.

      You keep contradicting yourself. You say looks are everything with getting a wife, but then you decry working out to gain muscles. Which is it?

      “Most men are straight up genetically unfit. Watch your mouth and tongue with swipes of “men are just fat and lazy” because many are not… and now even above average looking men are being left out because they were not LUCKY like you, born with the right height, body frame, bone mass, and looks. You would last ONE day in my shoes demanding your god to do something about it. Men who say clap-trap like you have NEVER had to be single, dateless, and invisible their whole lives to women.”

      I’ve mentioned it before but I was under average height and 110 lbs soaking wet coming out of high school. I was socially awkward. I’ve been invisible to women before. I’ve experienced becoming more attractive over time to women. Change is possible.

      Genetically unfit is an odd thing to say.


      Nothing has changed with genetics in the past 50 years. In the 1970s, 91% of all men and women had ever been married. You’ve acknowledged this. Across various cultures it has hovered in the 90-95% range. This means that most people, even those of below average looks, married at high rates.

      What has changed is the feminization of men and masculinization of women, obesity, and other various social changes. If you want to argue that the culture and feminism has disrupted marriage I’m all with you. If you’re arguing that looks are a be-all end-all then I can’t agree.


  16. cameron232 says:

    A lot of people have a hard time separating utility from belief. Probably most, DS. I want bourgeoisie values and good spouses for my children – these things aren’t belief.

    In lastmod’s defense he’s been virtually told here (I don’t mean 10 years ago at Dalrock’s) that looks are all that matter. He has gotten this message from a lot of us.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Lastmod says:

      Well…to be “fair” about it. In 2011, and 2012 it was “looks don’t matter to women. It’s science. Fact. Men are visual, women want security” kind of thing. Slowly, it then became “well..of course looks matter, but not as much to women”

      And now……its stated as if a new “secret” was discovered “Umm, women like muscles, like men who are handsome, dress well, are in shape…..”

      Well duh! I knew this back in 1988. Poo-pooed for it as were all Incels or men in situations like mine. “Fine, you just like being a beta” and “Join a gym, work out, get confidence….women will drop everything to be near you”

      Working out or whatever is great. I am not against it. A man who is 5’6″ and is a gym rat, gets a nice body is still going to be “below average” to about 99% of women.

      We can argue hypergamy, we can argue the times we are in. We can blame Apps and online dating. Speed dating. Women pretty much, and for a LONG time now only want a good looking guy. Most will settle when their proverbial wall hits, or they decide….”okay, I guess he’ll do”

      The mistake Game, PUA and red pill makes is that you are all under the assumption that YOU choose the woman. You’re all kidding yourself. She decides. She chooses. You have to look good ie genetically, and have the other trapping (status, ego, ego, ego, confidence, cocky-funny) that WORK when you are deemed handsome on a cultural standard.

      Most men don’t have this, and all the gym time won’t make a man who is a 3 at age 27 an 8 at age 28. Never.

      There are so many factors involved (social IQ and the like that really can’t grow or change much after the age of 25. Career…….sure, a man like me got a second chance…but many men don’t get this. The only thing that did get me this was a “right place / right time” and a killer work ethic that would surprise and dare I say frighten many of you.

      Who knows.

      The best way a man in faith can get better is to have men walk deeper with him. Have expectations, but this “guy neggin'” and “bro culture” with a jesus stamp is trite, silly and looks really fake. Cause it is.


      • cameron232 says:

        I wasnt reading 10 years ago. I would have never said looks dont matter. I knew that was never true. That sounds like something unattractive men were saying as part of a fantasy scheme to “get girls” I never wanted to get girls I wanted one girl.

        Liked by 1 person

  17. lastmod says:

    “I’ve mentioned it before but I was under average height and 110 lbs soaking wet coming out of high school. I was socially awkward. I’ve been invisible to women before. I’ve experienced becoming more attractive over time to women. Change is possible.”

    You’re married. You dated. You had options. I changed as well over the past three and a half decades. Zilch. Looks only matter today. They do.

    I don’t decry working out. A 6’3″ ectomorph like myself in 1987…no matter all the swimming, hiking, backpacking, camping……has given me “muscle mass” All it did was improve cardio and I don’t break out in a sweat while carrying a 50lb pack up Mt. Whitney like I did in 2018.

    Your posts and comments make it out as if Jesus expects you to do this to get a wife.

    All the exercise, all the bible studies, playing an instrument, speaking a foreign language fluently, having hobbies, traveled, beating a horrid drug and alcohol problem, and even having “provision” now still leave me invisible. Not that it matters at this point, I probably have a bout ten years to twelve good years left anyway.

    Looks matter. You don’t have them? Women don’t care about you. Feminist or not.

    I did stats for fifteen years at IBM. Those stats are not counting previously married, separated, and men like you would bemoan all these men because “settled” (and shame on them right?) but they had to…because sex is the only thing that matters to men evidently, and to this sphere….except those called to celibacy (which all here hate anyway, that isn’t ‘masculine’). Most men will put up with a Reichian wife to maybe get some action.

    I don’t believe those stats btw……way, way, way more men and women are single than ever before. Also, look at the questions. Many “consider” themselves married when they are just “living together”

    Your posts make Christianity to be being attractive to women. Glad its worked for you.

    Liked by 2 people

  18. Lastmod says:

    What had changed in the past fifty years?

    The last time real wages rose in this country was 1974. The church became a club, yes…all are welcome……but its straight up ‘Animal Farm’ god loves more than others. This is shown in all areas of leadership. Please; calling a man a “leader” in church because he passes out the program and is an usher is patronizing and that man knows it. The church janitor who may well be a volunteer is looked upon with disdain by the people in church with nice teeth.

    I’ll agree the church is a mess today….but men like you? The “leaders” in church? You play right along because your ego needs a stroking in places like that. No man is allowed to “improve” in church. That’s not the feminist and the nosy-church mommies, its men like you. Played in the band, went to mens retreats, ran the boys youth program (the little boys, Cub Scouts and older, Boy Scouts), went to countless horrible bible studies led by men who was ALWAYS married, and these men just happened to be ALWAYS good looking.

    In defense of my one Officer (pastor) at The Salvation Army, when I was selected by him to run the Scouting Program. I was a bit surprised by “all the men” who didn’t think or believe I was the “right choice” (because I wasn’t married, because I wasn’t handsome, because I had a past drug problem, because I didn’t talk about how great / awesome / popular I was…the list went on). These men could not say it to my face because of the fakes they were “Well, god has to decide…and Officer, we just have to discussed it enough or prayed enough about it….I mean, Jason is growing well….but leadership requires tests from god….” (blah, blah, blah)

    The Officer just said “he has gifts with children, and we need MEN running our boys youth programs. I have decided he is going to run it.”

    As soon as that Officer was transferred in 2016, the new one removed me. I was going to step down anyway for other issues….but I found it funny, they placed one of the “inner circle” (good looking, arrogant, a leader in the church supposedly….just a popularity contest based on looks and ego.

    You all can have it

    Liked by 2 people

  19. Lastmod says:

    A TV show….but so real when this aired in 2007? 2008? House here nails it, and of course Chase has no clue. Men who are born handsome really don’t have one on matters the rest face. Ignorance is bliss. Funny clip

    Liked by 1 person

    • Lastmod says:

      This was a big trend from the mid 2000’s for a bit. I’m guilty, did this back then a few times in San Francisco (you know, you-have-to-put-yourself-out-there and yes women did the choosing. Men are the product).

      And it usually ended up with one or two men getting “all” the interest cards, maybe some men would get a few. Most would get none.

      Waste of time actually. But its not about your looks, or genetics…….its all about your confidence, being funny, and reading her secret cues and language. Being “masculine” and having masculine pursuits, and being a leader 😉

      Liked by 1 person

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