Explicit answers to the questions that were brought up earlier posts.
Length: 2,200 words
Reading Time: 7.5 minutes
Reader’s Note: This is the 9th and last post of a series on masculinity. Here is the full list of posts in this series.
- Σ Frame: Redefining Manhood as Boyish Immaturity (2021 June 14)
- Σ Frame: Do men need talk therapy? (2021 June 16)
- Σ Frame: Entering Manhood (Rite of Passage) (2021 June 18)
- Σ Frame: A Man’s Ability to Read IOIs Depends on Having a Firm Grasp on His Personal Archetypal Mythos (2021 June 21)
- Σ Frame: Men’s Fantasy of Emotional Intimacy (2021 June 23)
- Σ Frame: 8 Things that Increase Discernment (2021 June 25)
- Σ Frame: Women rely on a man’s Frame for Redemptive Introspection (2021 June 28)
- Σ Frame: When walking on eggshells, step boldly! (2021 June 30)
- Σ Frame: Answers to the Exit Questions for the Series on Masculinity (2021 July 2)
Of note, this series received a few responses from around the Manosphere.
- Radix Fidem: God Doesn’t Play Games (2021 June 23)
- Radix Fidem: Don’t Kill It (2021 June 24)
- Christianity and Masculinity: The fallacy of teaching men to be emotionally honest part 2 (2021 June 24)
- Christianity and Masculinity: “That all changed after we married…” (2021 June 28)
- Adam Piggott: Husbands must not unburden themselves (2021 July 6)
Based on the insights and arguments tendered in the discussions, I’ll answer the questions that were posed in this series of posts.
Questions and Answers
Q1. Is it possible for a man to experience a deep, emotionally humbling love for a woman without taking the risk of “opening up” to her in the manner described here?
A1. NO – A man can love a woman in other ways, including Agape love, tough love, washing her clean, and so on, but without honesty and humility, his joyful enthusiasm will always be lacking. If sexual intimacy doesn’t take up the slack, I think there would be little else that could hold his heart in the relationship, outside of willful commitment (e.g., for the children’s sake, or to maintaining economic integrity, etc.). Unfortunately, too many marriages are solely fueled by male willpower.
Q2. Is men’s desire for honesty and openness with their wives just a quirky conceited fantasy, or is this how God intends for men to “love their wives”?
A2. It is God’s will for men to be authentic, honest, and open with their wives, and for men to experience intimacy, humility, and joy in doing so. Most men who have successful marriages (Ed, Scott, and I) will readily agree with this. However, this only works out well for men who have the following traits.
- Have very few weaknesses that are intolerable to women.
- Can generate the venerable Tingles in their wives (which blinds the woman to the man’s weaknesses).
- Have a wife who has a generous will, and is faithful enough to overlook or forgive anything she perceives as a weakness.
- Have a wife who is emotionally stable and spiritually mature enough to know how to micromanage her own emotions and deal with problems and setbacks.
As can be seen by the items on this list, whether or not a man can be honest with his wife depends largely on the character of his wife.
When these traits are lacking, she will interpret his honesty as him dumping his worries and grief onto her. This will make her insecure and vexed, and she will attempt to dump this anxiety back onto the man. Thus, it is extremely unwise for a man to be gut wrenchingly honest and emotionally vulnerable in front of his wife, because this will be perceived as a weakness. The weakness plays on her insecurities and fears, and gives her mind (1) some evidence that she should listen to Satan and (2) a justifiable reason to lose faith and defect.
Deep Strength says it is a fallacy to teach men to be emotionally honest, and in essence, he is saying that men’s desire for deep authentic honesty with a woman is merely a fantasy. But I say it is not a fallacy at all. It only appears to be a fallacy for men who don’t have the traits listed above, and who don’t have a woman who is sufficiently mature. (Granted, this is most men.) If the wife is wholly untrustworthy, intractable, and intransigent, then yes, it is a fantasy to those men.
Q3. Should a woman ever be expected to be a faithful, loyal listener when a man needs to talk things through?
A3. As a theoretical ideal, yes. In reality, no.
Eric Francis Silk answered this question well.
“They say that the relationship between husband and wife is like the relationship between God and us.
Well… We know considerably less about God’s mind/heart than God knows about our minds/hearts.”
“Right. When a man has problems, fears, anxieties, despair, depression, etc., he’s to go to God with it. He’s to go to other men with it (iron sharpening iron). Men are iron; women are cheesecloth, or in some cases Brillo pads. Cheesecloth does not sharpen iron. Brillo pads do not sharpen iron; they’re just abrasive irritants.
Children go to parents, usually Mom, with problems.
Wife goes to husband with problems.
Husband goes to God with problems.
Children respect/submit to parents; wife respects/submits to husband; husband respects/submits to God.
God loves husband; husband loves wife, wife loves children.”
Q4. Do women know that men fall for women with whom they can be humble and honest, and use this to control and manipulate men?
A4. YES – This is the primary reason why women are accepting of a man’s honesty before marriage, and very harsh and discriminatory afterwards. In a future post, I will discuss What changes after marriage? &
Q5. If a woman/wife insists on being the talk therapist to a man, is this her will manifesting as pride, as DS described?
A5. YES – A man should feel comfortable in opening up spontaneously with her. She should not try to force it into the open, or coerce him to talk about his feelings. Furthermore, if a woman does, this, it is taken by a man as disrespect.
Scott offered an alternative explanation when he said,
“The most likely scenario is she is repeating what she has been conditioned to repeat. Than men need to talk about their feelings more. But she doesn’t actually believe it. The analog of this is men who say they love kick ass girls with guns. They only think they are supposed to say this.”
Q6. If a man cannot face, deal with, or talk about his feelings, does this mean that he is weak or immature in some way?
A6. NO – Scott said,
“Cannot” is a loaded term here. But if we take it face value, it is more likely that he feels there is no he can talk to about it.”
I’ll add that he might have some issues that he is not able to put into words. It might also mean he cannot trust others enough to open up. Whether this truly indicates a weakness depends on the man on a case-by-case basis, but it should be noted that while an inability to “get honest” might be an indicator that a weakness is lurking, a man’s inability to talk about his feelings openly and on demand does not constitute a weakness by itself.
The issue of maturity, as was discussed in the first post in this series, is a little more nuanced, but the answer is still NO. This is because women have a false concept of “maturity”. (See Post 8 in the series.) Dalrock wrote about this compounding effect of societal decay in his post, Connecting the pathological fear of husbands having power with the peter pan manboy syndrome. (2012 October 4)
Q7. Is it worth trying to educate women that their husbands will love them more deeply and more genuinely if they would allow him to “open up” his Heart Trust and humility, and honestly communicate his thoughts and feelings without any backlash?
A7. YES — In theory, it is definitely worth it. But in practice, education alone may not be effective because of women’s inherent weaknesses in dealing with perceived weaknesses in men.
I find it ironically hilarious that not one, but two examples of this futility came up in the comments. I’ll convey these two examples as case studies.
Case Study 1 – Shame is as shame does, not what we say about it.
Under the 5th post in this series, there was a conversation between Cameron, Deti, Elspeth, Liz, et al. It all began when Liz mentioned an old Chateau Heartiste post, Petraeus and the Infidelity Risk Curve (2012 November 15). There was a disagreement about how Petraeus’ wife was shamed in various ways. Liz took the position that (1) she was a good wife. (2) Heartiste’s post shamed her, and (3) she doesn’t deserve that. The sentiment from the men was that, (1) Heartiste’s post, rude though it may be, was simply common sense. (2) She shamed both herself and Petraeus by “letting herself go” way too far (as the wife of such a powerful man). (3) She inadvertently subjected Petraeus to temptation as a byproduct. (4) Petraeus shamed both himself and his wife by having an affair. (5) Heartiste is a nihilistic prick, but even so, (6) there’s no shame in talking about it. To make a long tiff short, I believe all of the chatter can be summed up in one statement from Deti,
“No one disagrees with the Red Pill. They just hate it when you talk about Red Pill.”
Yes, because when you do, you’re serving up slices of humble pie, and if the shoe fits, well, you’ve just helped someone understand their own problem, and shamed the ħә11 out of them in the process…
Case Study 2 – Love Overlooks a Fault
There was another discussion focused on whether mens’ weaknesses (by various definitions) affects a woman’s view of him. The women, who happen to be very happily married, could not be convinced that their husbands had any significant weaknesses.
In closure of this discussion, Deti wrote,
“I am convinced that I am dealing with extreme, extreme outliers in the Manosphere Ladies’ Auxiliary (MLA). Women in the MLA are not anything like women in the real, actual, functioning everyday world. Not at all.”
Yes, the MLA are extreme outliers — unicorns that never fart! And these are women who already agree with the larger points being made on this blog (based on their stated interactions with their husbands, if not cognitively). Yet even with them, it proved to be very difficult to get the point across that all men have intrinsic weaknesses. We can’t know how open their husbands have actually been with them, so I will presume their stubbornness is because they can’t cognitively admit the fact without doubting their faith. We might be annoyed by their disagreeableness, but in this particular matter, this is to be commended of them.
Comprehensively, this conversation sums up the overriding message of this series – that a major piece of intersexual communication is transmitted by faith alone, and that love overlooks a fault. Without this faith and love, marriage is stormy.
Q8. What is your guiding star? Is it a deeply inspired personal mythos combined with a divine purpose for living, or are your psychological assessments guided by something else?
A8. This question is deeply personal, and each man must find the answer for himself. I will only say that it is unwise to place your trust in a wife, if both your confidence in yourself, and your trust in God are not significantly greater. Therefore, your mythos must transcend that of merely having a harmonious marriage. Instead, it must rest on something larger and greater.
A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. Make sure you know your ball and chain well before you anchor your soul to her by pouring your heart out in honesty and humility. Of course, it’s God’s will that you should do so, but good luck pulling that off!
- Σ Frame: Confidence and Authenticity in Speech (2009 December 28)
- Illimitable Men: The Game of Power (2014 April 22)
- Illimitable Men: Understanding Female Psychology (2016 March 16)
- Σ Frame: Conflict Structure and Marital Satisfaction (2017 November 15)
- Σ Frame: Disciplined, Submissive, Happy Wives (2018 February 15)
- Σ Frame: How To Get A Better Response From Your Girl (2018 February 27)
- Σ Frame (J.T. Anderson): Moulding an Excellent Wife (2018 March 5)
- Σ Frame: Apprehending True Humility (2019 April 7)
- Σ Frame: The Trust Factor (2019 April 18)
- Σ Frame: 2 Frames of Reference for Identifying the Trust Factor (2019 April 23)
- Σ Frame: Creating and Maintaining Heart Trust (2019 April 28)
- Σ Frame: Do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing. (2020 January 27)