Do men need talk therapy?

Women always say men should talk about their feelings. Really?

Readership: Christian Men
Reader’s Note: This is Part 2 of a series.
Length: 800 words
Reading Time: 3 minutes

Introduction

In the first post on the topic of masculine maturity, Redefining Manhood as Boyish Immaturity (2021 June 14), we reviewed the feminist perspectives on the definition of immaturity. The takeaways from this post are given here.

  1. Women are solipsistic.
  2. Men suppress certain emotions, and the woman thinks it is her job to extract those emotions.  Playing the mother is the most satisfying way (for her) to do this.
  3. There is a marked display of disrespect towards men and masculinity in general.
  4. Anything extraneous to the feminine imperative is labeled boyish immaturity.
  5. Any symptom of human frailty is boyish immaturity.

RonTomlinson pointed out that since women are solipsistic, and because women need to talk about their feelings, they assume that men do too. Psychological Projection is another word for this.

Deep Strength summarized all this in saying,

“The issue is not maturity though. A woman’s preconceived notions of what they think is “mature” or not is their will manifesting as pride: they think they know what is better than the man they are with and are setting themselves up as the judge of that.”

Indeed.

In this post, we’ll break away from the prideful feminist viewpoints and review a more serious assessment of one socio-emotional need that men have, and how it contributes to the impression of male immaturity.

Case Study – Talk Therapy

The Good Men Project (feat. Jane Garapick): Why We Love the Little Boy Inside the Man (May 24, 2015)

“As women, what we want more than anything else is a sensitive, caring, feeling, emotionally stable and strong man.”

“It seemed like he played the part very well, except he didn’t.

Not on the inside. Not where it really counts.

That’s why he’s still the little boy inside. That’s why the relationships we have are never about the two adults we think they are, the ones we see in front of us. They’re really about those hurt little boys and girls, the ones that live deep down inside of us.

We’re just learning to recognize their need to come out and express themselves. And feel. And hurt. And cry. And finally be allowed to express every single emotion they feel.”

And hopefully get a chance to play. And feel loved.”

What Garapick is talking about is what I’ve labeled “Heart Trust” in previous posts. Heart trust is when you’re able to say what you think, show how you feel, and not worry about being misunderstood or condemned by those around you. In other words, it’s the freedom to “be yourself” with another person.

In previous posts, I’ve focused mostly on how a man can build up a woman’s Heart Trust in himself. But it’s a two way street. A woman should also be focused on how she can be so loyal, supporting, and emotionally stable that she could offer a “safe” ear for her man’s Heart Trust in herself.

Furthermore, whenever a man is vetting a woman for a LTR, not only should he pay attention to the extraction of her Heart Trust, in the form of IOIs, but he should also consider how much Heart Trust he can realistically place in her as well.

Conclusions

I have written before about Why do Women Incite Others to Emote? (2018 June 19), and how women expect to be a man’s Kleenex. The problem with this is that once a man reveals his fears and weaknesses to a woman, she loses respect for him and is likely to use those things against him when the next opportunity strikes. She’ll insist that she won’t, but then she invariably does. Wise men intuitively know this. So at first reaction, we are prone to dismiss Garapick’s words as more nagging to emote ourselves to our own demise. But on the other hand, and before we dismiss this annoying aspect of women’s nature, we have to admit there is a kernel of truth behind this. Men do need to talk about their desires, fears, and hang-ups. Confessing these things to another person who is trustworthy, loyal, and non-judgmental can be renewing to the soul.

However, a woman is generally not the best choice of a person for a man to do this with. He needs to find other men to share this burden with.

Exit Questions

  1. If a man cannot face, deal with, or talk about his feelings, does this mean that he is immature in some way?
  2. If a woman/wife insists on being the talk therapist to a man, is this her will manifesting as pride, as DS described?
  3. Should a woman ever be expected to be a faithful, loyal listener when a man needs to talk things through?

Related

About Jack

Jack is a world traveling artist, skilled in trading ideas and information, none of which are considered too holy, too nerdy, nor too profane to hijack and twist into useful fashion. Sigma Frame Mindsets and methods for building and maintaining a masculine Frame
This entry was posted in Boundaries, Communications, Courtship and Marriage, Decision Making, Discerning Lies and Deception, Discernment, Wisdom, Discipline, Fundamental Frame, Headship and Patriarchy, Health, Holding Frame, Introspection, Maturity, Personal Growth and Development, Models of Failure, Personal Presentation, Relationships, Solipsism, The Power of God, Vetting Women. Bookmark the permalink.

82 Responses to Do men need talk therapy?

  1. professorGBFMtm2021 says:

    Young caring nurses always love talking to me about serious stuff like jennifer anistons father is john aniston on days of our lives(Hence why joey was on it on that friends show!That I never watched until’09!)&about SVUS mariska hargitys parents being jane mansfeild&the1950’s arnold shwarsznegger known as mickey hargarity!
    Thats the unexpected conversation everybody(Especialy young wimminz!) can always expect out of myself!
    Thats what I mean about natural alpha GAME!
    I have lived the unexpected life of a greatman since I could remember anything as a non-chalante young romantic gentleman of the old age of 4!
    Dr.scott&the professor could teach all the great things of natural aloof alpha living to those not-great peeps at thegoodmanginaproject!
    People thought I was joking back in feburary that I talk to women about what I want to talk to them about&women need to be loving&understanding about it!?
    Have you ever heard what most women today want to talk about?
    Its nowhere near as eccentric&interesting as a natural aloof alphas discussion topics!

    Liked by 1 person

  2. Scott says:

    When a woman (or collectively “women”) say they want a man to be vulnerable and talk about his feelings, you just need to filter it. Like this:

    “I want a [super hot sexy man] to talk about his feelings, [as long as what he is saying makes me feel good about myself but I don’t want any negative, icky stuff or pain, or fear, or needs or anxieties because this makes me see him as weak and he will fall apart under pressure when the barbarians are at the gate].”

    Liked by 6 people

  3. Scott says:

    Exit answers:

    one- “Cannot” is a loaded term here. But if we take it face value, it is more likely that he feels there is no he can talk to about it.

    two- see my comment above. The most likely scenario is she is repeating what she has been conditioned to repeat. Than men need to talk about their feelings more. But she doesn’t actually believe it. The analog of this is men who say they love kick ass girls with guns. They only think they are supposed to say this.

    three- I would not expect this from a woman.

    Liked by 2 people

  4. lastmod says:

    Well…that depends. In AA / NA this type of therapy I believe is very helpful. These programs are free, and you get to see, listen and speak first hand and discover others are indeed fighting the same problems you are. Yes, guidelines need to be followed and the lead or mediator needs to keep the discussion focused at hand on which step, topic, or situation is being discussed.

    In the ‘red pill’ world I find it, or it seems like this:

    Man goes out finds woman who will submit. He never tells her anything, never shows his feelings, never expresses love. He demands. She submits. If she doesn’t “you’re a beta-cuck who pedestalizes women, and didn’t vett properly, and have zero confidence, and are a simp, and not exuding masculinity to your wife or girlfriend which she will find hot, and she will still try to subvert you anyway…so might as well sleep around!”

    To me, it sounds like most men in the red pill world have icy cold marriages, devoid of conversation, only the threat of divorce, and zero love or affection. I know not all here have this…but in general. Here in the christian side of things too. I mean, did you men marry a robot, or “yes girl”? I also would personally be exhausted in your world because it sounds like you are micromanaging every behavior, every action,……..is this what a “loving christian marriage” is today?

    Or is it all just guys trying to “out-alpha” or “one up” each other.

    Any man who doesn’t communicate love, gentle correction, and actually LIKE his wife’s company perhaps needs to be thinking about why he got married to begin with

    Liked by 4 people

    • Red Pill Apostle says:

      lastmod – See my comment below at 11:56. The couple I describe are very close family friends. We’ve spent time at their home. They have helped watch our kids for us. The lady is a good hardworking woman. The man is sacrificial in his giving of himself, tending both to his wife and mother-in-law in their illnesses over the years. He is genuinely good, kind and thoughtful. Buy solipsism and hypergamy are very real in all women and at times even good women struggle against them.

      Liked by 1 person

    • thedeti says:

      Come on Jason, you’ve been here long enough to know what’s going on.

      What happened is men who weren’t properly socialized or trained or educated in how women are, got married to women who were told they are princesses who deserve everything and that it’s men’s job to give it to them. This was all done with everyone’s “blessing” and with literally everyone telling men what they’re supposed to do and be, while expecting nothing of their wives.

      These are men who did communicate love, gentle correction, and liked their wives’ company… and got sh!t on for it. These are men who did everything “right”, and got excoriated for it. These are men who did everything everyone told them to do, and it crashed and burned spectacularly.

      These are men whose wives treated them like sh!t for doing nothing other than being the husbands those wives demanded and that everyone else told them they should be.

      So when these men get red pilled, they’re naturally standoffish, suspicious, quiet, taciturn, reserved, and vigilant.

      No, we’re not micromanaging everything; but we are watching much more closely and paying much more attention to what is going on.

      No, we didn’t marry robots. We are flawed men who married flawed women. It’s just that we now know what her flaws are, we talk about them openly and without fear of reprisal, and we know how to address them directly now.

      No, our marriages are not ice cold, devoid of love or affection, or constantly threatening divorce. They’re more evenhanded now. They’re marriages in which we men get some things we want. To accomplish those things, many times we have to stand firm, say “no”, and not be entirely “nice” about it. Most importantly, we are never going back to the way it used to be in our marriages, and that requires us to be more steadfast, less yielding, less willing to compromise, and place a firmer hand on the marriage’s helm.

      I suppose that looks and sounds insensitive, unloving, and cold. I don’t really care. I’m going to get what I want and need from my marriage, or I’m not staying in it. If I’m going to be a husband, Mrs. deti needs to be a wife. Yes, there’s care. Yes, there’s love. Yes, there’s gentle correction. When gentle correction doesn’t work, as is often the case, firmer correction is applied.

      And this is just my part of things. Mrs. deti has her share of responsibility for how her marriage to me has looked and operated, before and after. It isn’t just me who wasn’t pulling his weight – she didn’t pull her weight either while at the same time demanding that I pull my weight AND hers too. No. NO NO NO. That is NOT how it’s going to be. Long story short, a lot of what you see and hear is me insisting that Mrs. deti pull her weight while I pull mine, because I WILL NOT do her job for her. She doesn’t do my job for me, so I damn well won’t do hers for her.

      Yes, there’s love, care, and gentleness. There’s also fairness, evenhandedness, and appropriate division of responsibility. Because I ain’t carrying this whole thing on my back anymore. Women who want marriages need to do their part.

      Liked by 3 people

      • lastmod says:

        Have a decafe Deti. I’ve read enough red-pill stuff in the comments over the decade, and by posters, v-blogs and the like. It just seems, you all make decision, she accepts them, or “I’m out / kick her to the curb / red-flag” kind of stuff.

        I learned that people in the end are responsible for their OWN decisions. Just sounds like most of you have bad marriages…..and even before red-pill…….men like you all who HAVE / HAD options seemed to choose someone who had issues, but you married them anyway.

        So what is Mrs. Deti’s job in the marriage? I mean, many of you here and other areas of the ‘sphere have opinions and expectations of how she will raise the children, how she will respond to you, how the budget will be done, how the house is supposed to be, what she is supposed to say and think, how she is supposed to dress, what kind of job she “may” or “may not” have…….who lives like that? Now or 100 years ago?

        I am lost cause. But really…….reading Dalrock on “how you vett a wife” (considering a man actually has the options to have a variety of an okay selection….)to DS, and his steps, and knowing if a wife is marriage material in a few days or whatever…….

        Is it any wonder more men WITH options (looks and the other trappings that they got by genetics or luck) are just staying home? Building that car? Traveling? Hiking?

        No man really wants a robot, or a woman who can’t use the bathroom without asking her husband or can’t decide which brand of coffee to buy……..

        Some of what many of you are purporting for a young man to find is really impossible….and even in the “good ol days” women didn’t behave like what you are expecting them to now using game, skills, tools, red-pill (cough) logic. Why bother? None of them are good anyway.

        Maybe that’s why sex doll sales are up….who konws? Maybe that’s why hook-up culture is hated…but you know is (wink wink) okay because a man has needs……and god doesn’t want him to burn….

        It just seems to be “either / or” and that’s it…and them impossible to actually fall in love, grow, enjoy and build something together.

        Like

      • thedeti says:

        Jason, I responded to you directly in my typical florid style. Come on. Let’s not be derisive unnecessarily.

        Yes, people are responsible for their own decisions. Bad marriages? Maybe. I prefer to think of them as not perfect marriages. I’ll never have a SAM/Elspeth or Scott/Mychael marriage. I have one that’s functional. I am sure that current me would not have married Mrs. deti if current me existed before we got married. OK. Fine. Whatever. I can’t change that. What’s done is done. There’s work to be done now. There’s things we need now. I have to deal with the world I have now, not the nonexistent “perfect world” I can never have.

        As for the rest of it – agreed. Marriage is virtually impossible now. If I were single now, I wouldn’t marry. If I ever become single for any reason, I’ll never remarry. I don’t recommend marriage now. I can’t in good conscience recommend marriage to anyone now. Frankly, most men don’t have what it takes to be husbands to the current crop of women. Most women don’t have anything like what it takes to be wives to ANY men. No one is getting any good training or education on how to be married or what marriage even is. Most men should GTOW, because they don’t have the stuff to be husbands and most women are incapable of being wives. As for women, all I can say is that they need to get trained to be wives and to bring their expectations down from the ionosphere if they’re to have any hope of anything like a “successful” marriage (“successful” being “didn’t get divorced).

        Liked by 3 people

  5. Red Pill Apostle says:

    “Men do need to talk about their desires, fears, and hang-ups. Confessing these things to another person who is trustworthy, loyal, and non-judgmental can be renewing to the soul.

    However, a woman is generally not the best choice of a person for a man to do this with. He needs to find other men to share this burden with.”

    This is so true. Having found like minded men who have had similar experiences to talk with has been very helpful. I once was of the mindset that a wife was supposed to be the person that knew everything about you and that you could share anything with. I was a fool. She will not find you attractive and more importantly she can not be trusted to handle the information you give her well. It will come back to bite you at some point when her emotions take over and she will then justify her actions somehow.

    “Should a woman ever be expected to be a faithful, loyal listener when a man needs to talk things through?”

    See above, NO. My experience is that women do not handle the uncertainty that comes with doubt well when it comes to a man. Men all have doubts and uncertainties that we wrestle with in life. The man, like me, who mistakenly shares these with a woman will confirm that circumstantial love is the default for women, and only the rare few are able to fight against this.

    I have a recent example of women’s tendency for circumstantial love and hypergamy. It’s an elderly couple where the husband is over 10 years older than the wife that I know quite well through spending time around their family over the years. She was a post wall widowed single mother. He fell for her deeply and raised her offspring as his own. I have witnessed her physically slap his face in anger, then blame it on hormones and watch him laugh it off while reassuring her that she couldn’t hurt him. To her credit she apologized to him and then to me for having witnessed her inappropriate outburst, as she is a good woman. Her mother (his mother in-law) lived with them and he helped with her care as dementia, and all the mental and physical deterioration entailed with it, set in. I have never heard him complain in the decades he’s been her husband, ever. He is a saint. He is now slowing down as he is in his 8th decade and the age difference is becoming more apparent. I overheard his wife question if she made the right choice in marrying him due the prospect of not doing things in retirement she might want to do. In one musing a woman’s tendency for circumstantial love due to solipsism, coupled with hypergamy was on full display. I believe she will tamp down the impulse, but that she would even suggest something like this is absurd. I doubt a similar thought would ever cross his mind.

    So, if you, as a man, choose to make your woman a faithful, loyal listener, you ignore red pill truth at your peril.

    Liked by 3 people

    • thedeti says:

      I once was of the mindset that a wife was supposed to be the person that knew everything about you and that you could share anything with. I was a fool. She will not find you attractive and more importantly she can not be trusted to handle the information you give her well. It will come back to bite you at some point when her emotions take over and she will then justify her actions somehow.

      Cosign this.

      There is way too much honesty between men and women, and it’s causing all kinds of problems. Men knowing as much as they do about women is causing men to hate women. Women knowing as much as they do about men is causing women to disrespect men.

      Bringing it down to the granular, the thought is that there are to be “no secrets” in a marriage. This has somehow gotten translated to “spouses are entitled to know and required to know absolutely everything the other is thinking, feeling, praying, and cogitating about; and to know everything about the other’s inner thought life.” No, no they are not. No, she is not entitled to know that you think Ariana Grande is superhot. She doesn’t really want to know. No, you are not required to know, and in fact you should not know, what she thinks your flaccid penis looks like. No, you do not have to tell her how you feel at any given moment.

      And no, you don’t have to be 100% honest about it. Neither does she. (She won’t be anyway.)

      If you need to bare your soul, find a man or group of men you trust. Maybe that’s online, I don’t know. It sure doesn’t help when wives, and women, are infiltrating and extinguishing male spaces. It sure doesn’t help when wives complain about their men spending time “with the boys”. It sure doesn’t help when wives commandeer and monopolize every last minute of their husbands’ free time and mental/emotional bandwidth. Wives, leave them alone. Don’t demand to know things you don’t want to know. Don’t demand to be his amateur therapist and then complain when he actually takes you up on it.

      Husbands, don’t tell her everything. Tell her a white lie or three. “What do you think about Ariana Grande?” “I don’t.” “How do you feel?” “Pretty good.” “How was work?” “It was fine.” “Does my ass look fat in these jeans?” “Just pleasantly plump.”

      Liked by 2 people

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Deti – In the past, men had a much better grasp of the authority hierarchy and both men and women knew their places in it. As such, men kept certain aspects of their lives from their wives. They knew women were the weaker vessel and this applied both physically and emotionally from a stability standpoint. They did not put their burdens on their wives because the Mrs. was not built to handle that stress all the time, and because of this they talked with other men, in men’s spaces.

        Women today would call what I wrote sexist. But if men were to implement what I wrote they would think it was sexy. Women say they want the man in touch with his feelings, with the confidence to share. But what all their actions say is that they really want a man that they feel is in touch with his feelings while in reality he exhibits masculinity.

        It was this lesson that I learned from Mrs. A. She told me she wanted me to still chase her like back when we were dating (see the red flag?) and to show her how I felt. I started leaving little notes for her and doing acts of service (5 Love Languages stuff) and what response did I get? I got begrudging gratitude for thinking of her, with but that’s really not what makes me feel loved. Did not matter what I tried, or shared, or did, it was never right or enough or whatever. Then I recalled a time in the mountains years before when we were in an iffy situation on a 4-wheeling trail. I took control, told her to calm down, reassured her that we would be fine and got us safely where we were going. That is what she is attracted to and is the one time in our marriage I felt like she really wanted me.

        So I changed my focus to being more masculine, enforcing God’s authority hierarchy and giving her just enough at times so she feels I care. This is what has has changed my marriage the most.

        Liked by 3 people

      • thedeti says:

        Women today would call what I wrote sexist. But if men were to implement what I wrote they would think it was sexy.

        It’s not that women hate Red Pill stuff. It’s that women hate it when men talk about Red Pill stuff.

        It’s not sexist to be masculine. It’s sexist to talk about being masculine. It’s not toxic to be manly. It’s toxic to see descriptions of manliness in print, and even worse when women read them.

        Women love it when men act masculine and don’t put up with their crap. Women hate it when men talk about masculinity and not putting up with women’s crap.

        Liked by 5 people

      • professorGBFMtm2021 says:

        Deti of course,men were doing this in the ”old days”!
        Even ward cleaver:”The sexiest man alive” at least according to jim geharity&dennis praeger would do that to mrs.cleaver on leave it to beaver when she would ask him about work on almost every episode that I have ever watched&most conservatives have most likely never watched clearly not jim geharity or dennis praeger!
        But ”conservatives” helped rewrite history&suddenly men were always telling their wives everything about themselves!
        This is what being redpilled helps men to see much more clearly as I&everyone here also knows!

        Like

      • thedeti says:

        @ProfessorGBFM:

        Deti of course,men were doing this in the ”old days”!

        Yeah. The reason women don’t like men talking about red pill stuff is that men are talking about women, what women do, how they do it, and what happens. Men are holding a mirror up to women. And women don’t like it.

        I used to see this at HUS 2.0, where Giggles and her girls would run screaming from the virtual room when men showed up and talked about what women were really saying and doing.

        Liked by 2 people

    • thedeti says:

      To her credit she apologized to him and then to me for having witnessed her inappropriate outburst, as she is a good woman

      If she can’t regulate her emotions, she is not a good woman; she is an emotionally unstable woman.

      If she treats her husband as you say she does, she’s not a good woman – she’s a cruel, mean spirited woman. Her poor treatment of her husband speaks directly to her poor substandard character.

      I have witnessed her physically slap his face in anger, then blame it on hormones

      I overheard his wife question if she made the right choice in marrying him due the prospect of not doing things in retirement she might want to do.

      This is unmitigated cruelty. This is abuse. This is the kind of thing that’s grounds for immediate divorce as “cruel and inhuman” or “cruel and abusive” treatment. Any judge in the land would give that man a divorce today if he asked for one. No man should put up with that. You can bet your ass that no woman would.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Deti – She really is quite a good lady, generous, loving, kind, but faulty like we all are and like all women subject to emotional outbursts. Recounting the worst incidents about them, that happened years apart, and his reaction(s) served to highlight the kind of man he is, at the same time highlighting female sin nature in her. As genders we have our respective struggles, and even good women are subject to the emotionally driven pitfalls of solipsism and hypergamy.

        Like

      • thedeti says:

        Any man who did that to a woman, even years apart, would get hauled into divorce court and disemboweled alive, William Wallace style. Any man who did that would spend a month in jail and then be ordered to pay her alimony for the rest of his life. Any man who did that would be reported to his employers, canceled, doxxed, excommunicated, and be made a societal pariah.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        You’re right. The guy is a uniquely good and patient man.

        Like

  6. My wife has always said that she considers me some kind of a “spy” because I rarely share my thoughts with her. Whenever something’s bothering me, it shows on my face and she’d ask me to share. Because trust (of others, even my next-of-kin) is an issue for me and of all that I read on red pill blogs (e.g., Dalrock and Cane Caldo), I find it very difficult to share with her. The biggest issue would be not getting much of an understanding or empathy (it surprises me even after five years of marriage how empathy does not come naturally to women) from her, or worse, judged or questioned. So if I do not share (or go into talk therapy) with the wife, it angers her.

    So what should I do? I’ve been cut off from all of my male friends (because my wife is clingy and would prefer to be by my side 99% of the time). There’s no one I can talk to or share without being judged.

    Liked by 4 people

    • thedeti says:

      First of all, assuming you’re really looking for advice here:

      1) Mrs. CORP’s clinginess and need to be with you all the time needs to be addressed. If she really is that clingy and needs to be with you all the time, that’s not normal. Something’s wrong. She has an attachment style that doesn’t work right. That’s not fair to you.

      2) You need to be more assertive about needing time for your male friends and your “own time”. It isn’t just because of her. She made this happen, and you let it happen. You need to stop letting her run the show like this.

      3) Your trust of others needs to be addressed too. If you really don’t trust anyone other than Mrs. CORP, that’s a problem you need to address.

      4) You can’t “go into talk therapy” with Mrs. CORP. It’s not working. So stop that.

      What you should do is

      — get into individual therapy to address this stuff. INDIVIDUAL therapy. As in Mrs. CORP will not be in attendance.

      — rekindle your friendships with men.

      — encourage Mrs. CORP to get into therapy of her own. Gently.

      — let Mrs. CORP be angry. Or feel her feelings. Stop walking on eggshells around her. Stop being afraid of her feelings. Just let her be in her feelings.

      She’s angry. OK, Mrs. CORP – be angry. You’ll get over it. OK, Mrs. C – be sad, or mad, or frustrated, or in despair. OK. I get that’s how you feel. But your feelings do not dictate everyone else’s lives. The world is not going to stop just because you feel this or that. Feelings are real, but they are not the truth, and they do not set us free. And you don’t get to use your feelings to imprison or manipulate or denigrate or deprive CORP of something he needs. CORP is not responsible for your feelings. YOU are responsible for your feelings. CORP is not required to fix your feelings or to prevent you from feeling certain ways. Your feelings are on YOU, not him.

      Liked by 2 people

      • whiteguy1 says:

        This is good advice from Deti. Really brother. Get to a personal therapist, keep posting here if you can’t get men friends in ‘meat space’ yet (but work towards this). That where I started, until I got friends in real life AND reconnected with family in a more healthy way. Get to the gym and start lifting (pick up heavy shit), any program just stick with it for at least 3 months. I treated the gym like a bar, I went there to get away, work out my issues and get healthy, all good things, heck you might even make friends there.
        I made a friend at the gym, and it turned out to be such a good friendship he asked me to be his best man at his wedding last year.
        For therapists I would find either a local man or a ‘unwoke’ woman. If you are in a small community reach out to Scott and see if he can help or direct you to someone who can.

        The personal therapist is some of the best money I have spent as an adult (it took about 2yrs for me to ‘un-fux’ my brain). It helped me get my head on straight and deal with life as it is (red pill), not how I wished it would be (blue pill).

        But once you start this journey, it not going to be simple, easy nor very much fun. But you will come out of this the man God wants you to be, not how the world, your wife, or anybody else wants you to be, as it should be.
        DO NOT TALK ABOUT your therapy sessions, your struggles, your postings on blogs, your budding friendships or ANYTHING like this with your WOMAN!!!
        1st rule of fight club is:DO NOT TALK ABOUT FIGHT CLUB
        2nd rule of fight club is:DO NOT TALK ABOUT FIGHT CLUB

        Seriously, lock down your computer/tablet/phone when you come to places like this, keep your journal locked away, don’t let her ease drop on your phone calls, make sure she can’t read your emails…Ask me how I know.
        It made me getting better 10x harder. Just don’t do it.

        Be aware that as you get more ‘healthy’ you wife will either get with the program and start getting herself better (with your leadership of course) or eject, like mine did. My kids are suffering because she’s Bat Guano crazy thinking that she could bring me under heel because she filed for divorce…I’m 2yrs into this mess and still no end is sight. She was planning on filing anyway, me getting healthy just triggered it sooner than she wanted to.

        Stay strong, reach out if you struggling, keep moving forward, and KEEP THE FAITH.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Jack says:

        “Be aware that as you get more ‘healthy’ your wife will either get with the program and start getting herself better (with your leadership of course) or eject, like mine did.”

        A third response is when they notice you changing and get anxious about the cause of it and how it might impact her. They want to figure it out and control it, or else, they get envious and start trying to sabotage it. Oddly, they’ll do this even if they like the change!

        Liked by 5 people

      • thedeti:

        Thank you.

        She used to be more clingy until we got into fights because I was home late from working overtime. After each fight, we became less loving toward each other but I had a little bit of space. There was once when she asked if she needed to get some professional help (because of a less-than-ideal childhood). I encouraged her by saying “Why not” but she changed her mind later.
        Am trying to be more assertive but fights can be emotionally tiring and I want to avoid that. I figured I have a long road ahead of me to make this marriage work but by the same distance, I’d have to gradually work around this issue of hers.
        The biggest issue I have with trusting someone (even my wife who is my next-of-kin) is being vulnerability, i.e., tossing out things I have shared in confidence during a fight or argument. I do not like it when she spills out my weaknesses or personality perks in an attempt to win an argument.
        I have been avoiding “talk therapy” and share only the mundane things. However, she is looking for something “deeper” and would always be in a mood when she feels stonewalled. She finds it (a) unfair (because, from her perspective, she has been sharing everything under the sun with me) and (b) she believes that there should be no secrets between a husband and a wife.

        Therapy – I have been seeing at least three counsellors over these issues in my marriage. However, I have become very weary because for some reason, they have mostly glossed over the issues and instead, placed the onus on me to at least tolerate the situation, bear with it or adapt where possible.

        Friendships with men – My social life is almost zilch now. My life revolved around the wife and now, my three-year-old son. Wife wants another kid. Unless things change drastically, I will have neither the time nor energy to do these.

        I loved that last para of your comment. It encourages me and gives me some fresh impetus to keep trying. There were times when she couldn’t control her emotions — to the extent of using her fists on me (technically a case of domestic violence?). In recent months, I have stopped her from allowing her emotions to spiral out of control by reminding her to control herself. At first, she used to throw anything within her reach as an expression of her anger. Then, it mellowed down to slamming doors and banging on things (there is a dent on our fridge). Spent a fortune repairing stuff she damaged or replacing things that were broken or damaged.

        Liked by 1 person

    • Red Pill Apostle says:

      Choking – I see some parallels in my marriage to Mrs. A and yours to Mrs. CORP. I would add to Deti’s advice, to avoid having children if you don’t already have them. I knew things were bad with Mrs. A. We even had a discussion that the lack of a sex life made the marriage bad and I was hesitant to bring children into a relationship like that. She stormed off and told me that no kids was deal breaker for her. She took advantage of my faith and commitment to marriage vows to manipulate me. What I should of done is printed off some DIY divorce papers and put them in her hand right then. Kids will make a hard marriage much harder, so sort things out first if you can.

      Those guy friends you don’t see anymore are essential for you as a man. You need them, I would say, more than you need counseling. You need guys that understand you, have addressed similar issues and won’t judge you. Having this is freeing. If Mrs. CORP is like Mrs. A there is a reason you feel hesitant to share with her and that is because you get negative feedback when you do. The facial expressions she can’t hide. The chastising. The manipulation. The lack of empathy. I moved states when I married Mrs. A and that distanced me from my friends and I don’t tend to make friends quickly. Being in a relationship that I was hesitant to share in, that was poor sexually and that limited my access to people who cared enough about me to really talk is one of the loneliest, discouraging things I have ever been through. I would not wish this on anyone. So don’t be like me. Go grab a buddy and get a few beers.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Red Pill Apostle:

        There’s no turning back because we have a three-year-old son now. She wants another although I am not too keen initially (but this is a different matter altogether). When we were about to get married, we made a promise never to mention that “D” word between the both of us. Guess who broke that promise repeatedly?

        And yes, negative feedback affects me. The way she responds sometimes gives me the impression that she’s not on my team; she’s on the other side. Which gets me to clam up and this annoys her. The vicious cycle continues… and I’ve learnt to filter out things when I share with her (an obligation).

        More than five years into this marriage, I am tired, discouraged and, dare I say it, lonely. I am holding on because of the vow I made before God. I see this as my lifelong committment to something God created, even though I crave to be liberated. Even if something happens to her one day, I don’t think I would ever get into a relationship with another woman and enter into another marriage. In essence, I am done with women.

        Am trying to maintain my friendships with my old buddies but five years of not being out and meeting them have created a distance between them and me. Will pray and see where this takes me.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        CORPs – Mrs. A would encourage me to go out with friends but I sometimes have issues finding guys with common interests and the time. As hard as it might be for you, metaphorically flip Mrs. CORP the bird and go out for bourbon and beer with your friends. You will be amazed how easy it is to rekindle friendships with bourbon as an option. You could even buy the first round. It’s cheaper than paying for a counselor. Then have a good time.

        My younger brother has sounded over the phone the way your words read. He had forgotten that life with all it’s adulting and responsibility, should be fun too. He had lost the fun loving guy who would wear a star spangled thong speedo just to make people laugh and cringe, lots and lots of cringing as he is more like Esau than Jacob when it comes to follicles. You get the idea. He’s started spending time with friends more. He invites his wife to come, but she usually declines, so he goes without her and finds contentment with his buddies.

        I recently had a conversation with Mrs. A about openness and sharing wrapped into where I am taking our marriage. I told her I don’t share with her and have hesitancy to do so because of the negative feedback and I gave very specific instances of what this negative feedback has been. This was framed in the idea that the reason I asked her to marry me was because I had never been as open and comfortable with anyone else in my life when we were dating and I want that type of relationship again. Now it will be up to me to train her like you would a good hunting dog, pointing out deficiencies and rewarding good responses. It is our job to set and enforce the boundaries we want her operating within. The good news is that you get to set what those look like for you, so starting taking small steps to setting those boundaries and remember that biblically, they are yours to set for her. She does not get to set them for you. God sets them for you, so as long as you are within His framework the world is your oyster.

        One of the worst feelings in the world is hopelessness. I certainly remember resenting the hell out of Mrs. A because she would withhold intimacy for months at a time and I had no outlet that would not have been sinful. So I am with you, were I to ever find myself single again it would be a miracle for me to consider marrying.

        Liked by 1 person

  7. redpillboomer says:

    Lol! I learned this at a young age from my mother. She’d say to me, “Tell me how you feel? What are you going through?” It always, I mean ALWAYS came back to bite me. School of hard knocks with mom taught me this very early in life,as a result my BS meter goes off full blast when I hear a woman say anything like it now. I guess my wife learned early on, hubby don’t EMOTE with her, she’s not my emotional release point. She’s been really good about it, I have to give her credit in that area. She’ll emote with me, no problem with that, because I just listen, rarely offer any ‘solutions’ (another thing I learned from the school of hard knocks), and it works out well for us for the most part. She feels validated that I listened to her, and better about whatever it is that was bothering her. I find other ways to express my emotions. I’m part of a men’s team, sometimes I’ll share with them what I’m dealing with in a certain situation that has an emotional component to it, they listen and it NEVER comes back to haunt me that I shared it with them.

    Liked by 1 person

    • thedeti says:

      My mother forced me to talk about my feelings. “You are going to sit RIGHT HERE until you talk about this!”

      Like

  8. lastmod says:

    Who does a man really have to talk to today? So much time is spent on or at work. He may make friends there….but usually they are “work friends” (‘Air Family’ is what we called it at IBM). My college friends……we spent about four years together, and we are now scattered country-wide…..and we did “maintain” during our twenties, into our thirties….after their weddings, divorces…re-marriages, kids, mid-life crisis girlfriend (aka sugar-baby who he lives with, showing her off to us like a high schooler)……….we all just drifted apart. There wasn’t any real anger. Life just changed.

    Hobbies? Sure, from my DJ stuff….know a few guys…but not really friends with them. Chruch? Let’s not go there. You open up to a fellow man at church, he tells his wife…whole church knows.

    It has been said for awhile, but most, or just just about all adult men don’t have anyone to call if something serious went down in their lives. Especially over the age of 30. Loss of a parent. A sibling. Some disease. Mental illness. Heck, even a drug or drinking problem. A porn problem.

    Most men, even the “weakling betas” just have to endure and deal with it. Once all my college friends got married they gently dropped me. Firstly, it was the distance. The best bro lived in Boston. I was in San Francisco. ..secondly, well…their wives didn’t like me. Some for legit reasons…some, well…..she had the hot body, and I didn’t. What choice do you think he is going to make???????????

    I really don’t have any friends. A few people I “know” and all………but when I lost my brother, my father, and even my mother. There really wasn’t anyone to call. When I was trying to get help out of my addiction to cocaine………no one really to call. At church over a decade ago when I was so struggling with my singleness and just “poor social skills” there wasn’t really anyone to help me. Christians would tell me to stop feeling sorry for myself…”did you know that Jesus suffered???”

    I’m not Jesus

    Killing yourself is messy, and living really has no solutions…..one just has to endure. Men do need people to talk to. It should be your wife in the matter of marriage….but we all know HERE you don’t do that. You just tell her “no” and remind her to “submit”

    Hence why most men don’t have friends with an attitude like that

    Liked by 1 person

    • Red Pill Apostle says:

      ” Chruch? Let’s not go there. You open up to a fellow man at church, he tells his wife…whole church knows.”
      “It should be your wife in the matter of marriage….but we all know HERE you don’t do that. ”
      The first quote is true waaaaay too often. Mrs. A would start with something like, “So and so told me this in confidence and that I shouldn’t tell anyone, but because we are married (the covert contract says) it’s ok for me to tell you.” This lets me know that my confidence in Mrs. A is not well placed in sharing with her because who knows what exception she’ll rationalize on top of beating me with whatever I tell her. A couple months ago I finally felt free enough to discuss something I was struggling with at work and that she might be able to help me. What I got was a 5 minute man up speech about how real men just dig in and figure it out.

      The second quote is what most husbands here wish were the case. Being able to share, to be really known without judgement would be amazing. See quote 1.

      Liked by 4 people

      • thedeti says:

        “…my confidence in Mrs. A is not well placed in sharing with her because who knows what exception she’ll rationalize on top of beating me with whatever I tell her. A couple months ago I finally felt free enough to discuss something I was struggling with at work and that she might be able to help me. What I got was a 5 minute man up speech about how real men just dig in and figure it out.

        Bet you won’t do THAT again, will ya?

        Mrs. d and I have been through that, kind of. So when I don’t open up, I remind her directly why I don’t – “Because the last time I did that, I got a lecture and complaining.”

        Wives cannot help their husbands with anything substantive that is personal to him. Wives cannot be sounding boards or confidants. This whole thing my parents taught me about “spouse as best friend” is bunk. “Best friend” suggests a peer relationship between spouses. No. We are NOT peers.

        She is NOT your best friend. She is your wife, helpmate, and subordinate. He is NOT your best friend. He’s your husband, priest, prophet, and king.

        Liked by 4 people

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Deti – I have certainly only offered generic statements since then. Mrs. A picked up on this and told me that she didn’t bring up work beyond anything generic because of my responses. What is interesting is that she wanted to. She WANTED to know my life more deeply, about what was going on and how I felt this. Girls dig for men’s emotions but the issue with the vast majority of them is that they cannot be trusted with the power that a man gives her if he actually shares. The exception to this may be if you have a truly submissive, not just obedient, wife who is strong enough in temperament and faith such that her heart attitude is one of service. I could see in these rare cases where this could work, but as of this moment it’s just a theoretical concept for me.

        A couple days ago I was rereading a post at Dalrock and came across Scott’s farewell letter to him. Like Scott, I can never unlearn what I have learned or go back to my old ways of thinking and this flipped my whole understanding of biblical marriage, intersexual dynamics and my relationship with Mrs. A on its head. I used to believe that passion in relationships was the spark that ignited the blaze, but that it was the deep friendship that sustained a married couple over the long haul. I was more of an idiot then than I am now.

        The reality has been that when Mrs. A regulated the passion, squeezed it to a trickle and then only remembered her vows when the quarterly taxes were due that I first was hurt, then mad and finally apathetic about her. There was no friendship. It was long dead replaced by loving my sons enough to maintain an intact household for them and duty to my vows.

        What I realize now is that a wife’s obedience and submission are what sustains the relationship. If she is generally obedient a workable relationship can exist with some good times can be had, but this will be more mechanical in nature. I am at this point now, looking at another few decades of a decent and workable but not great relationship. What is missing is the heart attitude, highlighted by man up lecture I recounted, where she really does want to help me as I ask instead of arguing with me until I persist in the argument and she does what I have asked.

        A relationship where I can really be more free to let her know who I am, what I think and what I want is the target I am moving our marriage towards. It may never happen as this would require a Mrs. A whole demeanor shift, but I have a destination in mind that would benefit both of us. Maybe she’ll come around.

        Liked by 2 people

    • cameron232 says:

      Last year a guy I know at work killed his wife with a handgun. Went down from his condo to his car grabbed the gun came back and emptied it into her. Right afterward he called an engineer I know. Missed call. Then called another engineer I dont know and told him what he did.

      He wasnt close with either person he called – didn’t really have anyone else to call I guess.

      Like

    • professorGBFMtm2021 says:

      ”Weakling betas”are your kennedys,clintons&preachers that tell other men to tell all to women&wives while boinking their secretaries on the side&hiding millions in the cayman islands!
      I only have problems with puagamers for lying to men such as yourself jason,not to most women who are usualy lying to men anyway! Weakling betas is my codeword mostly for men who lie to other men this has been a secret to everyone? The femine imperative/women privilege is the standard operating procedure to lie to most men especialy the last 60+years worth of men!A milder form existed before that,like how most prostitutes in the wild west had a heart of gold&were just looking for a good man to love them from cowboy movies&such!

      Liked by 1 person

    • feeriker says:

      “Chruch? Let’s not go there. You open up to a fellow man at church, he tells his wife…whole church knows.”

      About the only thing that churchians hate more than God-ordained roles for the two sexes is the idea of bearing one another’s burdens. You stand a better chance of being able to get constructive help and support from some random “drinking buddy” you meet at a bar, or from a militantly non-Christian neighbor or colleague at work than from your (supposed) “brothers in Christ.” That’s been my personal experience, anyway.

      Liked by 4 people

  9. Devon says:

    I’m an older guy and 8 years ago I started going to a local place that has board and card games. I have met a couple of guys I consider friends and could call in a pinch. Guys that are below average in looks (like me) for whatever reason can make friends in nerdish activities which is mostly other unattractive guys. I don’t really like a lot of these games but going has kept me from becoming isolated which is a problem for older men. If you’re a single guy over 40 forget about “gaming” women and try to make a couple of male friends.

    Liked by 6 people

  10. Scott says:

    I just saw one of my veterans for his compensation eval on telehealth and he was with his one and only wife of 49 years. They were so f%&$ing cute together. Finishing each others sentences and he made her giggle like a little girl. I wanted to jump through the screen and bite their faces off!

    Liked by 2 people

  11. rontomlinson2 says:

    The reason women assume that men need to talk about their feelings is that, as Jack stated in the introduction (1), women are solipsistic. Therefore, because women need to talk about their feelings, they assume that men do too.

    However a man isn’t required to talk to his wife or even to a friend about his feelings, he can

    (a) consciously examine them for himself,
    (b) talk to God about them, in prayer (such prayers are rapidly answered, in my experience)
    (c) put them on hold while he gets the job done, whatever it is.

    Thus he has options. Whereas I don’t think women do. Strictly speaking they don’t have feelings: feelings have them. The moment one actually feels a feeling, it dissipates. So my personal motto is that feelings are for feeling, not for talking about. (Being fairly introverted, I’ve had a lot of practice!)

    However it can be great fun to pretend to agonise about them, sometimes.

    Liked by 2 people

  12. Joe2 says:

    I really don’t have any friends. A few people I “know” and all………but when I lost my brother, my father, and even my mother. There really wasn’t anyone to call. When I was trying to get help out of my addiction to cocaine………no one really to call. At church over a decade ago when I was so struggling with my singleness and just “poor social skills” there wasn’t really anyone to help me. Christians would tell me to stop feeling sorry for myself…”did you know that Jesus suffered???”

    Your comment above has reminded me that I’ve had similar experiences.

    Rather than being told to stop feeling sorry for myself, I heard, “He’s having a pity party.” – different words, but the same meaning. And Romans 8:28 gets tossed in, too. Regarding singleness, I Cor. 7 and the gift of singleness seemed to be the pat answer. In short, Christians were of no help, but good at throwing out some bible verses which supposedly were the answer.

    When I lost my mother who lived out of town, I had the responsibility to make funeral arrangements at the local church she attended. She often spoke very highly of the pastor who came to her house for coffee and pastry after the service. When I called the church, I was read the riot act. I was told that I had no right to speak to the pastor, the church had a strict policy regarding flowers and the pastor was a very busy man so his assistant my officiate at the funeral. On the day of the funeral (there were about 15 persons in attendance), both the pastor and his assistant were there, but they both ignored me. I was on my own – no one seemed to care. The church was obviously two faced.

    Like

    • feeriker says:

      It’s really amazing how much alike all churchian franchises are, no matter what brand (i.e., denomination) they mark themselves with. I can envision Jesus on Judgment Day having all of their CEOs (who dared called themselves “pastors” in life) lined up in the defenant’s dock and demanding to know why the blasphemed the His church by pretending to be part of it.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Scott says:

        Although I still think we have to pay homage to the commandments about regular assembly, I agree. I have an uneasy truce with the church, no matter what form it takes.

        I cannot forgive being told by the elder board that her infidelity was somehow my fault for not meeting her needs (however nebulous and ill-defined they were). No cheating (from me) no violence, no yelling, no addictions. Just an imperfect, but totally devoted husband trying to be good.

        But I supposedly drove her into the arms of another man.

        Liked by 4 people

  13. cameron232 says:

    So these recent discussions make me think that there’s yet one more thing to add to women’s equation for picking and maintaining a relationship with a man where she’s haaaapy. One more thing women want:

    A man who can emotionally connect with her the way another woman can (but doesn’t come off as a p_ssy either).

    So here’s their list:

    Handsome (probably top 20% to generate visceral attraction)
    Physically imposing (tall, muscular – probably a top 20% thing too)
    Dominant personality (often described as “confident”, “charming”, “sense of humor” – a certain type of sense of humor).
    Status or signs that he will achieve status – status should be higher than hers
    Money/resources or signs that he will make money in the future
    Loyalty (likely to share resources with her (and her children) and only her for a lifetime
    A man who can emotionally connect with her like a woman can (above).

    Compare this with men’s list:

    Pretty – I’m attracted to her
    She’s nice to me

    Not surprising there’s so much female discontent leading to divorce

    Like

    • cameron232 says:

      So I’m suspecting that it’s the variety in terms of what they want as well as the fact that these qualities often conflict with each other (e.g. seldom found in one man) – that leads to so much female discontentment.

      It’s not that some men aren’t discontent – yeah some men want to trade up for a woman who is hotter or less bitchy. But the male wants are much less varied and less conflicted.

      Like

    • thedeti says:

      Not unlike the differences between what men do to be attractive; and what women do.

      What men have to do:

      -Get fit, lose weight, lift weights (at least a year)
      -get educated/trained for remunerative employment (anywhere from 1 to 8 years)
      -work to earn and save money
      -have your own place
      -have your own car
      -have money saved up
      -dress well (requires learning and money)
      -have cool hobbies that are interesting and fun for most people
      -be able to carry on a good conversation with many different types of people about many different things
      -be politically astute and knowledgeable
      -have the respect of your professional peers
      -have already dated some women and had sex with them (preselection)
      -exude confidence
      -be dominant

      Now, let’s look at what a woman has to do to be attractive:

      -have a pulse, a respiration rate, and minimal brain activity
      -not be obese
      -go to any place frequented by 3 or more humans, and just exist there

      Liked by 5 people

  14. lastmod says:

    When I lived in San Francisco, that TV show “The View” caused quite a stir for a few minutes. It must have been 1998? 1999?

    Well, these ladies were again squawking about what was bothering them at that moment, and dating or something came up…. and they were talking about how there is a “severe” man shortage. (That shortage was never elaborated on…… What they meant was that there are now no Tom Cruise type of men available.)

    Anyway, one of them said something about a HUGE surplus of men in San Francisco / San Jose / Silicon Valley.

    Commentator Joy sneered, “Those men in the Silicon Valley behave like twelve year old boys, have no life, and have no qualities women are looking for or need….and the good men in San Francisco that are good looking are all gay!”

    Huge applause and howls of laughter from the table and studio audience. While I agree in those long ago dot.com days…….. the classic nerd, and dorkwad after college did come to that area….. It was where the jobs were, and for once…… this crowd had a community of sorts.

    But honestly….. the women in the SF Bay area in those days were already applying that 80 / 20 rule then. Marketing and sales types of men were getting dates. The engineer, coder, tech writer, and startup guy were not.

    Everyone was upset for about a second back then… and then, well…… it was “The View” and no one cared what these loud, boorish, and foul NYC women thought about us.

    Liked by 3 people

  15. Pingback: Entering Manhood | Σ Frame

  16. Rock Kitaro says:

    From my own personal experience…I really don’t have a problem being open, straight-forward, and honest to my girlfriend about my feelings, regardless of how vulnerable, emotional or weak it makes me look. And I think the reason why is because I set that baseline before we even committed ourselves to each other. I don’t run “game” or pretend to be someone I’m not when it comes to someone I’m genuinely falling for.

    In fact, the reason why I’ve probably fallen for her is BECAUSE I can be myself around her. The moment I start having to watch what I say around my girlfriend (or anyone), is the moment I’ve decided I don’t want you in my life.

    Yeah, she’s capable of bringing it up and using it against me…lololol, but to be honest, I kinda prefer it. Especially sooner than later in the relationship. Because I don’t have many buttons. And if I give her access to those internal nuclear codes and she starts firing them off in retaliation or just to see what I do…well, my longest relationship is three months. I always tell my family, if my girlfriend makes it past six months, that’s how you’ll know she’s the one.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Red Pill Apostle says:

      RK – “From my own personal experience…I really don’t have a problem being open, straight-forward, and honest to my girlfriend about my feelings, regardless of how vulnerable, emotional or weak it makes me look. ”
      “In fact, the reason why I’ve probably fallen for her is BECAUSE I can be myself around her. ”

      I fell completely for Mrs. A because of how honest I could be with Mrs. A prior to marriage. We talked and shared about deep personal aspects of life. Then we got married, the license was signed and the power structure changed. Then the curse of Genesis 3 came out in full force. I’m not going to suggest that this will happen to you, but I would certainly be vigilant. You might even want to skip the marriage license part (if your state laws create an environment where the strategy could be successful) just to keep the power balanced.

      Liked by 4 people

    • Novaseeker says:

      Rock Kitaro wrote,

      “I really don’t have a problem being open, straight-forward, and honest to my girlfriend about my feelings, regardless of how vulnerable, emotional or weak it makes me look.”

      “I don’t run “game” or pretend to be someone I’m not when it comes to someone I’m genuinely falling for.”

      “In fact, the reason why I’ve probably fallen for her is BECAUSE I can be myself around her. The moment I start having to watch what I say around my girlfriend (or anyone), is the moment I’ve decided I don’t want you in my life.”

      I know that this is what the culture peddles, and I also know that it “feels” more comfortable for us, as men, to be like that. But it isn’t wise. Women are not men. They catalog everything we say or do that shows any sort of vulnerability or weakness away in their brains and later on that information and knowledge is deployed against you in some way. It often doesn’t happen immediately, and in the context of a BF/GF relationship with a woman who is not naturally toxic/BPD/etc. it can seem to work ok. But when the marriage comes into force, the entire power dynamic is forcibly shifted, and you will eventually have all of that info come back and be used against you, either openly or covertly, in how she decides to “manage” you.

      It bears repeating.

      Women are the weaker sex physically, and they therefore feel both existentially vulnerable in ways that we generally do not, as well as innately justified in using anything that can be used against us in ways that are beneficial to them — precisely because they feel we have a leg up on them anyway. When you feed women information verbally or through your actions that reveals weakness or vulnerability, you can fully expect that it will be deployed against you in some way by her for her advantage, because she will eventually find herself in a situation of conflict with you, where she is looking around for things she can use to her advantage to “win” the conflict. It really is that simple. Women do not see vulnerability in us as being cute or endearing or humanizing or any of the other claptrap that the culture tells us, or that women tell themselves and spout to us and each other. Women despise weakness and vulnerability of any kind in men, despite how they may openly mouth otherwise, and even think that they themselves believe otherwise — deep down, they despise it, especially in a man they are connected with/dependent on. It will eventually be used against you at a time when she feels the need to reach for tools to use against you in a conflict with you. Sucks, but it’s just how women work.

      Note that this doesn’t mean you have to be an unfeeling ass, or that you have to pretend with yourself that you don’t have weaknesses. It isn’t a lot of mumbo-jumbo, we know we all have our weaknesses, we aren’t that stupid. The key is that you do not show these to women. The person you share them with are close male friends who can help you with them, and can empathize with you to some degree because if they are really close friends with you they won’t react in the “one upmanship” way of exploiting your weaknesses and vulnerabilities, like a male stranger will. This is why we don’t share our weaknesses and vulnerabilities with male strangers — they also use that information against us, generally, typically to assert hierarchical dominance over you at the moment you disclose the weakness or vulnerability (Christian pastors love to do this to men, for example). And it’s also why it’s critical to have actual male friends — something fewer and fewer of us have, which tends to make men reliant on women in this area, which leads to the problems I outline above.

      Liked by 7 people

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Rock – I’ll put some personal specifics to highlight what Nova wrote, because it is true.
        Dating conversations – open honest joking non-judgmental
        Married conversations – open and honest gets manipulation “if you really love me” type statements and joking gets kicked or pinched under the table because her choice cannot embarrass her
        Dating view of me – let me be myself enjoyed time together
        Married view of me – I got told I’m not like her dad and real men do it “this” way. Got lambasted more than a few times like this.

        Once you are legally hitched to a girl, who you are is a reflection of how good a man she could get. It is SO true that she will use all her soft manipulative power to try to make you into the man that makes her look best. She will not care what you actually want unless what you want matches up with what she wants already. Who you really are can be fine as a boyfriend because you are not fully committed. Once the rings are on the fingers, your meaning to her changes. You become her status symbol and anything you do that causes her to perceive you as lowering the status in her mind will be met with resistance, manipulation and cajoling (nagging) to get you to keep her appearances up.

        By the very fact that you are on this site reading, you have knowledge that many of us here did not have while dating. Use it wisely.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Rock Kitaro says:

        Nice! Thanks for the feedback everyone. I definitely don’t dismiss it. In my adult life, I’ve only had two committed girlfriends, and the rest were relationships that never went past the “talking stages”. So yeah, I’ll most definitely take your experience into consideration.

        Like

    • Jack says:

      Rock, I used to have the very same mindset as you when I was younger, and I had that habit of interaction with my first wife. While we were dating, we talked about everything! She was delighted when I teased her. She always agreed with me whenever I said something serious, and she laughed at everything I said in jest. This comfort, intimacy, and honesty was a major reason why I chose to marry her over others I knew. In fact, this was perhaps the one quality I wanted most out of marriage.

      That all changed after we married. As soon as the honeymoon was over, she didn’t want to hear anything I said. She tuned out of common exchanges. If I spoke my mind about something serious or talked about my feelings (!!!) she immediately went to Defcon 5. By that I mean, she would get nuclear angry, storm about the house, declare she wanted a divorce, pack a suitcase, and leave the house for several days.

      During marital counseling, the counselor told her that our former habit of communication was important, it worked well for us, brought us together into marriage, and that she needed to continue talking with me like that if she wanted the marriage to continue smoothly. She was flagrantly indignant about this advice, partly because she knew it was true I suppose, and partly because she hated it. She chose divorce rather than to resume communicating properly. I eventually came to learn that, apparently, when she had maintained this kind of communication while we were dating, she wasn’t as honest as she had let on.

      After I had this experience with my first wife, I talked it over with my dad. He told me he experienced the same thing in his marriage to my mother, and this was one of the biggest disappointments he had, not only about marriage, but in his life.

      For some time after this, I had the hope that I might make a dent in this family curse. I started to talk about this with my family members from time to time, trying to get it out in the open. Soon I began to recognize a pattern in my family. Whenever I brought it up, all the men knew exactly what I was talking about and jumped on board, but all the women became indignant and walked out of the room with a huff. My sister was the only woman in my family who was willing to admit it was true, but she would only admit this to me in private, and she would not go into the topic any further than a simple agreement. But even so, I did learn something about the women’s perspective from talking with her. All the women talk rather freely amongst themselves, but they’ll never tell the men anything that is going on. They’ll have a caucus, make decisions, and carry out those decisions among themselves, and they intentionally keep the men in the dark as much as possible. For example, when my sisters and female cousins started to be sexually active, my mother and aunts gave them lots of “instructions”, and kept it all a secret from the men, as if it were none of their business. If there was ever an abortion in the family, I never knew about it. When one of my aunts had an affair and was socking money away in preparation for a divorce, all the women knew all about it, but all the men remained clueless until she breeched the subject – after she had already arranged everything with a lawyer.

      I experienced more of the same with my current wife, but it’s not as bad because I was already aware of this, and I had already learned to be less trusting of women.

      Now I know this is not just a curse on my family, it is the Curse of Eve.

      Liked by 6 people

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        “But even so, I did learn something about the women’s perspective from talking with her. All the women talk rather freely amongst themselves, but they’ll never tell the men anything that is going on. ”

        If marriage is in your future, full biblical patriarchy is the only solution to this and you better be tough and determined as hell in today’s world to enforce it.

        Liked by 3 people

      • surfdumb says:

        Powerful example of the difficulty of marriage. I know more now than I did back then, but that level of intransigence is shocking.

        Liked by 2 people

  17. Eric Francis Silk says:

    Talk is what got men into this mess to begin with.

    Talk therapy? How about action therapy?

    Liked by 1 person

    • Red Pill Apostle says:

      Eric – Guys build relationships shoulder to shoulder building, conquering or enjoying (thinks sports or outdoor activities) the world together. I like the idea of action therapy for men.

      Liked by 1 person

  18. horsemanbombadil says:

    “…have any hope of anything like a “successful” marriage (“successful” being “didn’t get divorced”).”

    If that is the standard for success then it is doomed. Success should be both parties get something beneficial out of it they cannot get alone.

    That’s like saying a successful business just doesn’t go bankrupt, not that it makes a profit or a useful product.

    Not that I am disagreeing. Marriage or LTR with the selfish, untrained people of both sexes today is untenable. Like everything else we have removed merit and ability from our definition of success.

    Like

  19. horsemanbombadil says:

    It really is doomed.

    Once seen it cannot be unseen

    Either directly through lived experience as in most of us or for the youngins from seeing it, reading it here.

    Either way the pretty lies, the belief in those lies, that made marriage and society tenable have been so blatantly revealed there is no going back.

    One day surfing intstathot, facestupid or twitthead will show everything there is to know about the real natures of people and the obvious counter measures. However after that there can be no believing in the myths of romance, marriage, happily ever after again. Ever.

    Like

  20. surfdumb says:

    It’s easy for me to get overwhelmed ready CORPs posts, and the incredible efforts it takes, by Deti and RPA to change things. But, strictly by numbers, we have Scott’s Mychael, Elspeth, and Liz having excellent marriages where the women.
    But, if I had a choice, I would stay single, figuring I have the gift of singleness because I don’t see the desire and will power to do the fighting it takes to wash a wife. I am CORP, but 5 years later.
    Jason shows that being in the meatmarket is extremely discouraging too. I remember those days well, but I wasn’t prepared for combat in marriage and the abandonment of my God-given authority by my church, family, society, nor the tremendous energy needed to husband a woman.

    Liked by 1 person

    • surfdumb:

      It can get overwhelming but there’s always hope and discernment. It really pays to discern very carefully and do your due diligence first before taking the plunge into a relationship. Never ever disregard the red flags that pop out. It could be a disrespectful stray comment, the mess in her room, or the way she addresses her father (or the lack of it).

      I believe in the old days, the father and mother prepare their daughter for marriage — physically (i.e., taking care of things in the home), emotionally, mentally and spiritually. With our current times, families like these are as rare as unicorns. Without such parental guidance and preparation, you have to choose carefully and then, you have your work cut out for the rest of your life in working out the marriage / relationship you want and sanctifying her. Because there is very little in the area of reinforcing the roles of fathers and husbands anyway in “Christiandom”, you have the odds stacked against you.

      We’ve been married for more than five years. I can count with one hand the number of times Mrs CoRPs cooked a meal for me. Her desk and drawers are always messy and her defence is that it is an “organised” mess. She complains about dust on furniture but does NOTHING about it. At the dinner table, if she needs me to pass her a piece of paper napkin, she won’t open her mouth but give me a look. She is perpetually glued to her phone — chat apps, Facebook and Instagram — but gets into a mood sometimes when I check my own phone for messages. She is a stay-home mom now and I paid thousands of dollars just so that she can pursue her interests (i.e., digital artwork, which means an iPad, paid apps and even a six-month course). She can complain that she’s tired most of the time but when she heeds my advice to rest, more often than not, I see her lying on the bed and staring into her phone. I get invariably angry whenever I see my son trying to get her to engage with him and play while she is being hooked on the phone.

      I would have liked our home to be less cluttered, less messy, cleaner and more organised. I would have preferred her spending more time with our son. I would have preferred someone to take care of all our meals rather than me having to drive out for takeaways.

      Committement is mostly what remains now.

      Since you are still single, keep holding onto hope and continue to pray. And discern; always, always discern.

      Like

      • surfdumb says:

        CORP, a clarification, I am married, to what sounds like the same woman. It’s scary to think there are other women like my wife. I would not want any other Christian man to go through this.

        She started cooking one meal a day around year 7, so that helps. She started paying attention to our child when he turned 6, but she is so awful that I appreciate the opportunity to be the primary voice. I won’t list all the crap she pulls, but I was trying to say in my previous post that I’ve been married about twice as long as you when I said I’m on the same road.

        My wife dropped being a believer shortly after marriage and openly mocks God.
        Does yours at least say and express herself as a Christian?

        Liked by 2 people

      • Sorry for not reading your comment carefully. Perhaps it is really a coincidence that our wives are similar in their personality traits and quirks.

        My wife is hungry for the Word of God and I know I have not been diligently guiding and leading her in things of Christ. It will require a lot of work to steer things in the right direction and I already have my hands full trying to cover aspects of our family which she can and should readily do (such as liaising with our son’s kindergarten on matters and playing a more active role in his education — although she is an educator herself).

        Liked by 1 person

      • whiteguy1 says:

        I feel for both of you brothers! Try to right yourself and your ship now, my soon to be ex was also like both of yours (hmmm seeing a pattern here) and a accepted poor performance from her for way too long.

        I started way to late in the process I think and Crazy pulled the eject lever. Work on fixing you is the first start. Set good healthy boundaries and behaviors you will accept. It is hard work but will be worth it.

        The is a old saying, women are like water, they will conform to the pot they are in. So if the pot is leaking, don’t complain about the water, fix the pot. (Now if the water is a toxic mess, well, lots of prayer)

        Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Surdumb and CORP,

        I was once in a similar situation to where you both are, in your various stages of your relationships, less Mrs. Surf’s apostacy. Mrs. Apostle was fully grown with multiple degrees and in many ways was still a teenage girl in mentality and behavior. I let her behavior go unchecked for so long that it damaged me (and as head this means it damaged the marriage). That I let it get to this point is on me. So before you find yourself a stone’s throw from the 2 decade mark, married to a cantankerous social media shrew, start setting boundaries for yourselves.

        Here are some ideas to mull over and then modify to fit your specific situation then get busy. I like bang for your buck approaches (think 80/20 rule). Each of these are low(ish) conflict ways of creating boundaries and molding behavior that engender respect and recognize (I didn’t write ‘establish’ on purpose) your authority.

        I made the mistake of approaching my interactions Mrs. A from the frame of her being an adult for far too long when she did not act like one. So repeat after me: My wife is ruled by emotions like a child. She acts like a child. So I must train her up like a child with strength, patience, kindness and authority that God has given me as a husband. Repeat this until it is just as much a part of you as your heart beating.
        Fitness: You can do this with body weight exercises and eating well. Herschel Walker is the Mount Rushmore what can be done with bodyweight exercises. You probably won’t be like him, but you will get amazing results by pushing yourself. It’s free and doesn’t take much time and the mental benefits probably will be more important that the physical ones. Do a little research on Herschel’s story. He was a slow fat kid that struggled to do a push up and worked his way up to doing thousands a day utilizing different variations of the exercises he does.
        Know the kind of wife you want her to be so you have a specific target and you start behaving to move her there. CORP’s wife’s napkin glare is an easy example. Ignore her until she asks to have a napkin passed to her. No polite asking, no napkin. She asks, but doesn’t say please and you look back at her patiently waiting for the magic word. If she asks why you aren’t passing the napkins, you ask, “What’s the magic word?” If she balks you ask her when the most basic manners fell out of style and state that y’all are going to model good behavior for your child.
        This is one that I have not done the best on, but is going into effect this summer; Bible reading and praying together. (Surfdumb, for you just take your kid to church without the wife. Invite her, but you and your kid are going regularly.) With the Bible reading I will not read it together with Mrs. A. She needs to dig in and think about scripture on her own and I want a teacher student dynamic, which means I will set the reading schedule and we’ll read separately. My goal is that, with some frequency, to have points/concepts/lessons she should have taken away from the passage. If she already figured these out, great, but I’m still setting what is important to learn from the passage. In a case where she did not see the same lesson even better, because now we’re at a point of me teaching her. If the teaching dynamic happens a couple times a month that is perfect for what I want, which is a slow and steady formation of a dynamic where she comes to me in my position of spiritual authority. Here’s the good news, with all the social media time your wives appear to indulge in, there is a good chance serious Bible study is not something they engage in, so this is low hanging fruit.

        Liked by 3 people

      • Great tips, Red Pill Apostle. I co-sign your comment about the wife behaving like a spoiled teenager despite being a fully grown adult in her 40s. Every month I have to tolerate her emotional rollercoasters. I cannot understand how and why she cannot control her emotions like a proper adult.

        Anyway, I will see how I can apply your tips / advice and get to set some boundaries. Thank you so much for sharing this!

        Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        CORP – The kindergarten or about to be 1st grade teacher communications. Stop doing it. Give the teacher Mrs. CORP’s email and cell number. Remove yourself from this equation now. You have more important things to do for the family than coordinate corp’s early grade school academic schedule. From what I perceive from your writing, you want your mission to include setting the spiritual tone of the family which is important for training corp to love God. Stop doing things that distract from your mission.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        CORP – Go up to the Christian RP writers on the sidebar, find Matthew Cochran and read his latest post from June 14th. It addresses the faulty expectations blue pill feminist upbringing creates. Here’s an applicable excerpt.

        “So when modern men who were raised to expect equality start forming closer relationships with real women, they often find themselves asking a lot of questions that men from other times and places would have found egregiously naïve:

        Why can’t you just set your feelings aside and focus on the problem at hand?
        Why can’t you just tell me what you want instead of making me guess?
        Why can’t you just pull yourself together and keep going?
        Why can’t you just argue rationally?
        Why can’t you just see things from my perspective?
        The answer to all of these is, of course, “because she’s just a woman”.”

        Liked by 2 people

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  22. I have some questions:

    Do men need to be their wives’ talk therapist? Are husbands obliged to be her listening ear at all times? Must men hear their wives out even when they start talking about the most mundane things?

    Like

    • thedeti says:

      No to all of these questions. I’m not qualified to be a therapist. I don’t always have time to listen to her because I have other things to do. And no, sometimes I just don’t want to talk or listen.

      What you’re obliged to do is to pray for her. What you’re required to do is wash her in the water of the Word. That means read the word to her; teach her the word, and interpret the word for her.

      I have been reading elsewhere, though, and it would appear that she has more pressing issues like getting her emotions under control. Your wife sounds like she has a cluster B personality disorder (borderline most likely) and that needs interventions. It needs treatment. She needs to see it, recognize it, and really want to get better. Unfortunately, Cluster B’s don’t get better without intervention and without the sufferer really, really, REALLY wanting to get better and get her emotions under control.

      Untreated cluster Bs can be dangerous – mentally and emotionally for sure, and sometimes physically. You really should encourage her to get talk therapy from a professional. If she continues to be violent and rageful, and threatening physical harm to
      herself, to you, or to your children, you must take affirmative steps to protect you and your children.

      Liked by 2 people

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