YOLO = FOMO

…for good or for ill!

Readership: All
Length: 1,750 words
Reading Time: 6 minutes

Introduction

The life script commonly pursued by western women in the past decade or two is the UMC Career Model, which stipulates that women need a career to support themselves. NovaSeeker discussed the typical motivations for choosing this script, and how it is both prevalent and powerful.

The corollary to the UMC Career Model is that women should postpone marriage and having children until the last dozen eggs are two years past the expiry date, so that they can divert their time and energies into pursuing a career (or so it is claimed). However, the truth of the matter is slowly leaking out, as evidenced in this article from Evie Magazine.

“A generation of OnlyFans, flashy jet-setting Instagram modelshookup culture, and hypersexual songs that slash their way through the billboards – it’s only natural that women of this era find the “wild girl” phase seemingly necessary in their early years, especially their twenties. Sexual liberation has taught women that it’s almost their duty to engage in such behavior and that by not engaging in this culture they’re doing themselves a disservice by not effectively using up their “prime” and “golden” years.”

Evie Magazine (Simone Hanna): We Don’t Need To Go Through A ‘Wild Girl’ Phase (2021 May 15)*

But there are always a few who are slow to pick up the pace, so they need a little encouragement, peer pressure style.

There is a well-known power phrase that is spread liberally throughout the culture which encourages young women to dive into drinking sprees and the hook-up culture, among many other things, while they are pursuing the Career Model: “You Only Live Once!”

In addition to this, there are a couple underlying sentiments which add emotional fervor to the heat of the moment, and serve to propel young women into the meat market and the labor grinder: The “Fear of Missing Out” (FOMO) and the “Fear of Regret” (FoR).

Let’s review these motivations and make an assessment.

* H/T: Cameron

Believe it or not, fraternity toga parties are a necessary element of preparing them for careers in “chemistry” (him) and “public relations” (her).

“You Only Live Once!” (YOLO)

YOLO is the catchphrase we often hear from proponents of feminism and in motivational talks given to disoriented, hormone-ridden young people, which appeals to their sense of impulse and alleviates their fear of the adverse consequences of risk and the unknown.

Over the past two decades, YOLO has been primarily used as an equivalent to “Carpe Diem!” The latter phrase became popularized through the movie, Dead Poet’s Society. A relevant excerpt of this excellent film appears here.

But there is a difference between the two attitudes, YOLO and Carpe Diem! that easy to overlook. Carpe Diem emphasizes making an effort to become relevant first and foremost, but also rolling with the punches, enjoying the simplicities of life, and appreciating what each day brings. On the other hand, YOLO speaks of a more nihilistic discovery or “pioneering” of life in which the consequences of the undertaking are unknown, but are assumed to carry benefits that comprehensively outweigh the risks. Furthermore, it is often understood as a double dog dare for others to join in, with the connotation that if others fail to join in, then they aren’t really living. Thus, it encourages tackling matters of a riskier nature, often involving questionably moral activities.  In riskier adventures, it carries the underlying assumption that one has the nine lives of a cat.

Fear of Missing Out (FOMO)

FOMO is an appeal to the meaning and purpose of life. It assumes that one’s life is meaningless unless one gets involved in certain enterprises in a timely manner.

FOMO is fueled by a Herd mentality, in which young women are pressured to conform to the dictates of their peer group.

Young people, women especially due to herd mentality, are inclined to conform because they don’t want to be “left out”. This is actually a healthy trait for the 12-20 age group because this is when the “social” part of the brain and personality are developing.

However, the problem with the current iteration of FOMO is that there is a significant imbalance in what they are afraid of missing out on. They are afraid of missing out on the pleasures of sin for a season more than they are afraid of missing out on the longitudinal blessings of obedience.

Why aren’t young women afraid of hitting the proverbial Wall?

Fear of Regret (FOR)

Young people are motivated to make certain decisions in life because they don’t want to experience guilt, shame, and regret.  There is an element of FOR in The Feminine Dilemma (2018 October 27) and The Christian Marriage Dilemma (2021 February 26). For some individuals, FOR is the deciding factor that motivates a particular choice.

But similar to FOMO, the problem is that there is a significant imbalance in what they are afraid of regretting. They are afraid of never “discovering themselves” more than they are afraid of regretting missed opportunities and throwing their lives away on sin and foolishness. While it is true that knowing one’s self has significant value, the actual emphasis of “discovering one’s self” is placed on exploring the pleasures of dissipation, which leads to them becoming jaded and bored with life, and not on growing and maturing. In practice, “discovering one’s self” is little more than a spiritualized, positive sounding euphemism for dissipation.

Under the current Life Scripts, young women are doing incredibly stupid things that they deeply regret later in life. But somehow, they never think of it this way.

True Living for Christ (TLFC)

There is a Christian equivalent of YOLO, which is True Living for Christ (TLFC), and like YOLO, it also involves risk taking.  Glorifying God by embracing one’s true convictions (and all the risks that it entails), and the uncertainties involved with trusting God are felt as significant risks in the moment. But the difference between the Christian TLFC and the secular version of YOLO is that TLFC is motivated by faith, and is supported by the movement of the Holy Spirit, whereas YOLO is motivated internally by FOMO and FOR, and externally by peer pressure.

However, YOLO, FOMO, and FOR are not necessarily anti-Christian in nature. Whether YOLO and FOMO are healthy or ill all depends on what it is that the person (i.e. young woman) wishes to pursue in life, which essentially boils down to values, and values are instilled from a young age, most notably through the father.

The remainder of this post will offer three case studies in which YOLO, FOMO, and/or FOR appears as a motivator to do what is right.

Case Study 1 – 18-year-old girl wants to have a baby!

This case study should not be shocking at all, but somehow, it is.

Spawny’s Space: The worrisome rebellion of a timely procreation. (2021 May 10)

This post tells the story of a young woman who has a healthy variety of FOMO – she’s afraid of missing out on motherhood and family life!  Under the current drench of feminist propaganda, how did she ever get the notion?

RedPillApostle responded,

“The 18-year-old’s father is the one that concerns me. No matter how determined you are as a girl, the father always has an influence. And the one in Jack’s example is the typical “no man is good enough for my princess” dad, which is where his push for her to go to college so she can be an “I don’t need no man” empowered girl. What he should be doing as the current man with authority in her life is coach her on what characteristics the new man of authority in her life should have, what pitfalls to avoid and how to best make the family life she is choosing work. He won’t do this, because he has no grounding in truth and no clue how to help his daughter pull it off well even if he wanted to.”

Seems like daddy fumbled the ball, and fortunately for her, I might add.

Case Study 2 – A Father with Frame

RedPillApostle continued with a story of a dad who did right by constructing a Framework for his daughter.

“In college, I was classmates with a woman who had a good father. The guy she was dating in college was a typical college kid, which means he was learning things by trial and error like most of us do at that age. After one of those “learning events” she questioned whether to keep dating him or not. Her recounting of the story is that her father sat her down and loving told her that the boyfriend’s character was good and that one day he’d be a man many women would trip over themselves to have, so she better lock him down early. She resisted hypergamy, got married soon after college and this year will be their 20th anniversary. Even though she is a very intelligent engineer, she has followed him to new jobs putting family ahead of her own version of modern success. My belief is her father has been instrumental in imparting these values in her.”

Amen!

Case Study 3 – Why do Women want to be housewives?

If Dads are aware of some of the positives in marriage (from a woman’s perspective), then that might help a daughter reframe her expectations in light of positive values.

Manosphere Highlights Daily: Women Explain Why They Want to be Housewives (2021 May 11) Length: 11:00*

* H/T: Kentucky Headhunter

Conclusions

YOLO, FOMO, FoR, and TLFC are essentially comprised of the same psycho-social dynamics, but the real world expressions thereof are figments of different motivations. The motivation itself depends on deeply held values.

Just as YOLO, FOMO, and FoR can motivate young women to follow a worldly life script, the same approach can be used to drive young women towards a healthier appreciation of Biblical feminine roles and a life that is honoring to both God and family (TLFC).

The same is true for sons, but to a masculine effect.

Related

About Jack

Jack is a world traveling artist, skilled in trading ideas and information, none of which are considered too holy, too nerdy, nor too profane to hijack and twist into useful fashion. Sigma Frame Mindsets and methods for building and maintaining a masculine Frame
This entry was posted in Attitude, Choosing a Partner or Spouse, Choosing A Profession, Convergence, Culture Wars, Decision Making, Desire, Passion, Discerning Lies and Deception, Discernment, Wisdom, Discipline, Education, Feminism, Freedom, Personal Liberty, Hypergamy, Introspection, Maturity, Personal Growth and Development, Models of Failure, Models of Success, Moral Agency, Purpose, Relationships, Solipsism, Stewardship, Vetting Women. Bookmark the permalink.

164 Responses to YOLO = FOMO

  1. professorGBFMtm2021 says:

    MANOWARtm =YOLO!BibicalMANOWARtm=TLFC!Is the math straight now?If parents realy care about daughters so much then do teen marriage like back in da old days that all the people who think their decent&old-sckool hate!Now see why I’m dabadguy of da manosphere?

    Liked by 1 person

  2. cameron232 says:

    Another day in the gynocracy…

    Liked by 2 people

    • Well, garsh Mickey, isn’t that one of those wonderful traditional Asian ladies we hear so much about?

      Liked by 6 people

      • Novaseeker says:

        Yep. Culture is king.

        Liked by 2 people

      • cameron232 says:

        Nova,
        N=1. I think genes matter when we look at behavior in the aggregate. Heredity of personality and thus behavior isn’t 1 but it isn’t 0 either.

        Also, she’s been placed in a society that her ancestors didn’t create. Genes contribute to culture.

        Like

    • Liz says:

      Used to be a woman would have to join the right social circle to get encouragement to frivorce. Now they just get online to the approval of tens of thousands.

      Liked by 7 people

    • thedeti says:

      Yeah, Newsflash, Tiger mom:

      Your daughter has been having sex with her boyfriend (and probably a couple other men) for at least a year now. You’re just now finding out about it. You also think you get to run the show on this, which is why you’re divorcing your husband.

      Liked by 7 people

    • Jack says:

      In response to the tweet shared by Cameron…

      17 is the average age of first sexual activity in the U.S., and these youngsters are obviously Americanized. The average age of first sexual activity in Asia is 3-4 years older, which is when young people leave the home to work or go to college. Leaving home is what does it.

      The father described in the tweet gave what I would consider to be a typical “ultra conservative dad” response. It is an extremely bad response, but the wife’s was even worse (divorce). It would be much better if the parents had talked with their daughter about the intricacies of intersexual dynamics and her life script long before she blooms and then nature begins to take it’s course. This would have helped her become aware of such things, make some goals, and take responsibility for her sexuality, one way or another.

      Liked by 2 people

      • cameron232 says:

        @Jack

        But the girl in the tweet didn’t leave home -she’s still in HS.

        I’m not going to tell you that culture doesn’t matter. I bet you the average age of first intercourse varies by ethnic group for fully Americanized people. I think genes matter too. Sure – Asian girls in America will act more slutty and frivorce more often than girls in Taiwan.

        I’m somewhat impressed that she dated the boy for 3 years and only now has become sexually active with him. I’ve been told on this website that it’s unrealistic to expect young couples to date 6 months without having sex. She showed well above average impulse control. Very Asian.

        Like

      • Jack says:

        Cameron,
        Yes, I agree that culture matters — a lot! That was my point of saying they’re Americanized.

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        Also, what jumped out at me was the way she publicly disrespected/dishonored him – in front of the whole world. My immediate, instinctive reaction was that if I were Do-Yun I probably would have went into a violent rage and done something really bad. No, this isn’t a Christian reaction – but that is probably what would have happened and Do-Yun and Kim Ji-yoo would both have really bad day. Honorable daughter might have learned the hard way what men are capable of.

        You can talk to me all day about grace – and yeah grace is good – but in the real world people lose their sh!t.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        Jack,

        I’m conceding that culture matters (which I think is an obvious point).

        I’m stating that genes matter too. These stories are n=1 samples sizes that can be (mis)used to make a point, but notice the girl was able to hold out 3 years before having sex with her boyfriend.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Joe2 says:

        The tweet states that they have been dating for three years and are just beginning to be sexually active….and then mentions birth control.

        Let’s back up for a moment. In the context of the tweet, just what does beginning to be sexually active mean? It implies P in V sex because it mentions birth control. The couple could have engaged in oral sex for several years, but it seems that’s O.K. The problem is with the sex that can result in pregnancy.

        Liked by 2 people

  3. Dead Poet’s Society is an interesting movie.

    When you’re younger its about how a cool English teacher tells kids to go after their dreams no matter what.

    When you’re older it’s about how a childless heathen teaches kids to resent the parents who are sacrificing to send them to the best school possible in order to actually have their best lives possible.

    Liked by 8 people

    • Red Pill Apostle says:

      Headhunter – You are right. DPS peddles a romanticized idealism that covers the ungratefulness of sophomoric teenagers. I used to chase after my dreams no matter what, but my dream of being a pro basketball player ended at 5’9″ and gravity. It’s much better to encourage kids with the truth. Something along the lines of, “We can’t do anything we want to, but God has given you a specific set of interests and abilities for you to develop and use in life. In utilizing them wisely you honor God and can have a life with purpose.”

      Liked by 5 people

  4. Novaseeker says:

    Providing examples of success scripts is effective I think.

    One reason why the frat couple is emulated is because many people like that end up quite successful in life following the mainstream script. People (young people) see that and notice and follow along, as people are wont to do when seeking similar outcomes.

    For Christians a key is providing a massive parade of examples of early marrying couples who have successful lives in every way, not just Christian moral lives. And it needs to be a massive parade … not a few outliers. Otherwise the reach of the message will be limited to people who are themselves interested in being outliers — that’s fine, but you can never expect that to be a significant group.

    Liked by 4 people

    • Red Pill Apostle says:

      Nova – It depends on how we define success in life. As a family, Mrs. Apostle and I made choices that limited professional growth but emphasized church, family and friends. We don’t have the money some of our peers do, but there is much to be thankful for.

      Liked by 6 people

      • Novaseeker says:

        Yes, I get that, but that will always be a harder sell.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Elspeth says:

        It’s only a harder sell if you are not an example of your professed parameters of success.

        Like RPA, we do alright, but we don’t have a lot of money. We live well enough but nothing glamorous or worthy of envy from a material perspective.

        However, (and we hear this from people young and old and richer and poorer than us), we make marriage look fun. We are not just Mr. and Mrs. Agent Man. We are THE Agent Man’s.

        Plenty of young men have told my husband they would love to emulate his version of marriage, “but…”

        It’s normal to want to have all your needs met and to be able to enjoy life a little. But obsession with those things is really an indicator of lack of faith in the old saying, “The best things in life are free.”

        Liked by 5 people

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Elspeth,

        “But obsession with those things is really an indicator of lack of faith in the old saying, ‘The best things in life are free.’”

        What I believe you are wisely alluding to is known as idolatry. We all have our own “things” that we make more important that God’s instructions for what is best in our lives. It could be stuff, status, power, education, children, spouse; there is really no end to what the human heart can desire more than following God. Been there. Done that. Fixed some. Found others.

        Liked by 4 people

      • Elspeth says:

        Yes. A frequent prayer is for the Lord to help me love Him more even than my spouse/marriage.

        Idolatry always lurks; especially when what we love is a truly good and worthy thing worth loving.

        Liked by 3 people

  5. professorGBFMtm2021 says:

    People follow successful scripts?Is that why so many want GBFMtm to be toned down or is it because they can’t handle&measure up to the truth&the GBFMtm’s success script!?GBFMtm will tone down just as soon as non-GREATBOOKSFORMENtm settle down!

    Liked by 2 people

    • Sharkly says:

      Yeah what’s with all this “follower” stuff?
      I’m a natural maverick when nobody is following me, and a natural leader when others are following me. Whether I’m a maverick or a leader depends on the others. I just perform my God blessed role of being the best “me” I can be. In either case, I’m making my own decisions and I try not to follow other folk’s scripts, I just have God’s written laws, and the life and aptitudes He has given me.
      The blue-pill was a satanic drag on my expression of who God created me to be. I’m pretty good about making stuff work. So it took a really evil woman to prove to me I couldn’t make a marriage work single handedly against a woman who was addicted to constantly returning evil for good. According to blue-pill dogma if there are marital problems the man is always >50% responsible, even while they deny men any leverage to ever effectively correct a rebellious wife.
      However, I discovered the red-pill in the Bible. Turns out its OK for me to be the White man that I am! It is my wife’s job to submit and adapt herself to my rule. God says so. All the other foolish opinions against God’s holy patriarchal order are just chaff in the wind.

      Proverbs 21:30 There is no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the Lord.

      Professor, I don’t think everybody has escaped the mental slavery of the matrix yet. We are a royal priesthood, brethren of the King of Kings. No woman is our earthly equal! We men were given the dominion over every created thing upon this earth. And we named it all.(through our father Adam) If I am ever contemplating a marriage relationship with a woman again, I’m going to rename her, and not just her last name, I’m going to completely rename her, and if she doesn’t want to legally change her name to the one I give her, she just lost her new lord and is back to being feral. She’s going to need a new and improved identity if she’s going to be associated with this chosen servant of God most high!

      Don’t ever “tone down” your MGTOW Majesty. Rule! Rule them well. Don’t extend your scepter until they’ve expressed and exhibited their fealty.

      Liked by 3 people

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        I like it Sharkly. You are giving her a chance at Mrs. status and demanding a payment for that status, which should be a good way to separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak. It’s a masculine attitude to see if she really wants you enough to be submissive or not.

        My personal check for my sons will be to for them to negotiate with the fiancé’s father to avoid the lavish ceremony and reception and instead use the money to start life together. The potential father-in-law could save a little and the newlyweds would have money to start a nest egg. The marriage would either happen or not depending on the attitude of the fiancé. All men considering marriage should have some sort of check to see how valuable he is to his potential wife. It’s must know information.

        Liked by 3 people

  6. Sharkly says:

    “The corollary to the UMC Career Model is that women should postpone marriage and having children until the last dozen eggs…”

    And since things always take longer than expected, then they are down to just their final three eggs, and those eggs’ names are Moe, Larry, and Curly.

    Liked by 2 people

  7. lastmod says:

    There are not enough young men with “great careers” at 27-30 to support a family, buy a or build a house, save money and have all the other cultural trappings (be a virgin, yet bring wife to orgasm by just looking at her, the looks, the connections, a leader in the church, well traveled, and even a higher than average social IQ).

    Again, this is assuming women have it together, and men just need to “grow up” and be serious about getting a virgin 18-22 years old, or maybe ONE partner prior to marriage, who is pretty, wants to be a mom, submissive, not obese, doesn’t have any tattoos, and is above average in looks. There are not enough WOMEN like this…. and a man over 35 is pretty much hopeless, and will be labeled “Beta” by many of you because he “has to settle” or is “thirsty and desperate”

    Impossible standards set for just about everyone……. and again… no hope in Christ to heal, change, or make a man or woman repent, change and flee from past sins……

    It just comes off as, “You must do this / be this, or else a man is a Beta who supplicates to women, or a woman is a cock-carousel rider who wants to stick the landing.”

    The christian lifescript here isn’t any different than Marriage 2.0 really. Sure, you can use more street language but it really isn’t the same. Just repackaged and branded as “Red Pilled”.

    You are forgetting the power of the Faith you all claim to represent. No one can change. Just burn. “You sinned in the past….??? Sorry, you’re done, just come to church, live in shame, and MAYBE god will reward you in heaven.”

    Most younger men wouldn’t even have a shot at these “young women who want to be housewives”. Most Christian women are no better than their secular sisters when it comes to STATUS…. Lets leave out looks… Maybe she really wants a “believing christian man”, but every man is not going to be an amazing leader. I know everyone supposedly is one today…. but 99% of us are not.

    The younger above average looking Christian man that dates (has sex… whoops, sorry about that……. “You know jesus forgives, and I needed practice so I can be a better husband…”), is building a career doesn’t need this info. The lower 80% are made hopeless, and women AGAIN are assumed by the red-pilled world that nothing is wrong with them… gotta game them, frame them….. perform, make her laugh…. win her over. Be this, or that… must have or must do.

    There is a deep crisis here that new terms, and case studies won’t solve.

    I know this — Jesus can heal. He can turn people around. He can invoke truly godly sorrow for a past transgression(s) then maybe christians should be building each other up there.

    Again, this makes men with certain features “okay” and men without them stuck….. It makes no woman good enough and other woman a pariah…. No hope… But Jesus is King right?

    Do any of you believe this? From my take….. most of you really don’t….. I did once, but now it just seems like Jesus is invoked only to defend a position……. but no one here is living it.

    Like

  8. lastmod says:

    I was in college when DPS came out. A departure at the time of what one would expect from Robin Williams (coming off the coattails of the blockbuster ‘Good Morning Vietnam’)

    As a product of private boys school….. not as luxurious as the one in DPS (which was filmed at Dover Academy) but a boarding school…. Uniforms, lights out at 9PM on Sunday thru Thursday, at midnight on Friday and Saturday. No tape on the dorm walls…… study time! No smoking allowed. Male teachers. A crusty old Headmaster. Sneaking out at night. Chapel on Sunday. All the silliness that happened at that age in a place devoid of women. Surreal.

    I found some of it accurate in the sense of the fellowship boys can have in a place devoid of women / girls.

    It was just a story, a good one. We all wished we had a teacher like Robin Williams in this movie when it came out. Robin WIlliams defended the system many times in the film. “It is one thing to suck the marrow out of life, and also choking on the bone.”

    And he mentioned that banking, engineering, and medicine were important and needed to keep society functioning. He also had a quiet friendship with the “conformist” fellow teacher.

    It was just a good story.

    Liked by 1 person

  9. professorGBFMtm2021 says:

    ”Women do foolish thiongs they deeply regret later”?Does anyone here truly believe this?Or is this more ”lets comfort bluepill elite idealism” as so often comes from supposed redpill realists?Most of the men&women that have grown up since the late 80s have been extremely coddled&here I find more coddling of bluepill illusions o,trying to justify bad behavinor of parents!I never watch the matrix,only MANOWARgames&”they live”!The true redpill films!Anybody here can talk me out of that redpill realist position?Convince me!
    P.S.Gen-x was the last gen that grew up rough&mean,hence how garbage colleges/universities became even more fairy tale princess lands for bad behaving fathers who wanted their daughter to be them as a woman!That is’nt where most transsexualism is coming from?Anybody want to talk to me about that?Remember I’m a loner badguy!
    MGTOWP.S.We make our own rules of decency&honor like princess dads!

    Like

  10. lastmod says:

    IDK professor. GenX in general may have been more independent at a younger age (latch-key), and we grew up in a time (well, most of us) in the later 1970’s as kids when Saturday Morning Cartoons were over, it was time to “go out and play” until suppertime. It didn’t matter if it was raining, or freezing cold and snowing. Parents really didn’t worry about where you went. (For me it was the woods, old logging trails on my bmx type of bike, dog following me….. Other kids in suburbia probably did similar things, the park… down to a 7-11, going to an abandoned gas station…). It was the “1970’s”.

    Many of us were raised on that silly mantra, “You have to be your own best friend” (which worked great for the parents who told us this, I guess). Remember Captain Kangaroo in the 1970’s? He would always read a book to the TV audience back then. One of the books was called “The Most Important Person In The World”, and it closed with saying that ““The most important person was in fact, YOU! And guess what, you didn’t even know “you” yet”.

    Bunch of tripe. Oh, and thanks for nuthing, “Big Bird”! The world didn’t and never did operate the way I was taught by these well meaning shows.

    GenX was and is a small generation compared to those before us and after us. There was something there, even when we were young…. We knew something was off or not quite right….

    I remember seeing photos of parents and grandparents back then when they were younger. The sheen, the space-age glow of post-war black and white photos….. while in the 1970’s….. we saw already something tarnished. Something lost. I wish I could articulate this better.

    By the middle of the 1980’s I was pretty jaded….. not a rebel, nor an anarchist, but even then I knew the world I was going to inherit from my parents was already worse off than it was. We just seem to be a lumbering dinosaur to its death…. and the only solution now seems to be “Trump! Trump! Trump!”, or proving how much women are attracted to you.

    GenX isn’t really any brighter than any generation in recent memory before or after us….. But we do have something…… The last throes of a post-war dream that many of us did have growing up. Many of us did have intact families… and those who didn’t still had that teacher, that uncle, or grandparent, or mom, or dad that was involved in some way.

    We just knew at a young age that we had to do most things for ourselves or by ourselves.

    Liked by 7 people

  11. professorGBFMtm2021 says:

    I know all that but these redpillers still trying to convince men that GAMEtm is the way when it never was!Why’d GAMEtm expert loser strauss fail with his wife?People think I’m bad?Wait until they meet all these guys who realy don’t give a $hit&have no honor!But they can’t see it coming?People keep closing your non-realist eyes to the truth!

    Like

  12. lastmod says:

    Well Professor…you and everyone here knows my stances on “game” no need to rehash that 😉
    If you had it to begin with, sure probably helped. If not, you are going to be driving sideways, stuck, spun, and always thrown into a circle of the next step, next code, next variable, and a billion variations of terms, acronyms, shades…it goes on….which is most men, and hence why the dire hate of game on MGTOW, Incel, Blackpill and other subgroups. Women love game btw….put them on a pedestal, men slaving over how to “get them” and be “enticing” and be “noticed” by them. Women love that power they have. game amplifies that ten-fold, and actually increases hypergamy.

    nuff said

    Liked by 1 person

  13. redpillboomer says:

    Interesting take on things in this blog post. I’ve mentioned before the 27 year old (now 31) that I coached in an educational program; what I didn’t mention is she had a 27 year old female friend she met in the program. The other woman was Christian and married at 23 to a young man from her Christian school who had graduated with a Chemistry degree and was working in that field. I actually coached both ladies, and even in my Blue pill haze, I wanted the single one to emulate the married one; like in, married woman’s ways RUB OFF on single woman. Do you need to even guess what happened? lol! (The lol is for now, not back then; I was more like “WTF! That’s wasn’t the game plan sweetheart!)

    Looking back on it now, I think I see what it was that rubbed off on Ms. Christian Married woman: YOLO, FOMO, and especially FOR ended up winning out over God-fearing. Hubby had most of the things going for him that they say the ladies want: tall, good looking, fairly nice build (slender with muscle tone), a STEM degree and STEM field job… BUT he was Blue Pill out the wazoo! As far as I know, wifey is still with him, but she did leave her good job with a Christian publishing firm, to go into acting which is big in their area, that being metropolitan Atlanta. Her social media went from pics of her and hubby doing relatively wholesome activities around town to pics of her with her acting buddies, girls who looked to me to be CC riders and several dudes, including a couple of Chads and a Tyrone (apparently they exist in the theater world too). Mr. Blue Pill hubby was letting her travel all over town and then out of town doing dinner theater shows WITH these guys. I saw a number of pics taken from hotel rooms where they were all yukking it up, actors style.

    As I became increasingly Red pilled, I was like, “OMF’ing G!” She and the other girl her age then started going out together. The CC riding girl I know left our program to get away from the discipline (or as she put it upon departing, “too much ‘masculine energy'”) to go back to clubbing and coke (recreational drugs and binge drinking were not allowed during the program–supposedly). The next thing I see on social media, the two of them were going out together, and secular princess looked stoned in some of the pics, and Christian wifey, while not looking stoned, was definitely dressing more of the the sloot part, e.g. clubbing outfits with more cleavage showing.

    Again, my take on it, for married Christian girl, it was FOMO and FOR that got her in the end. She feared that being a ‘boring Christian wife’ might cause her to miss out on all the ‘fun’ out there! I’m sure she saw her buddy as having ‘the good life’ even though her buddy was teetering on the brink of being a train wreck. P.S. If you recall me mentioning in some earlier posts, the married, Christian women was the one progressively THOT’ing it up in the gym pics on Instagram. BTW, since then, I’ve noticed that both of them have hit the wall and it is telling. They are still somewhat attractive I guess, but nowhere near as attractive as they were when I coached them at 27. In looking at their FB posts when they were younger, secular girl was definitely an 8, and Christian girl a 7 in my opinion. Now, I put secular girl at a 5-6 with make-up, Christian girl at a 6 with and without make-up. For some reason, make-up does nothing for her looks as far as elevating them on the 1-10 scale.

    Liked by 3 people

    • Liz says:

      Hand writing is on the proverbial wall.
      FOR is going to leave her with a lot of regret.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Liz says:

        Had a friend back home that moved to town around age 16. She was from Atlanta. We were the same age, so mom kind of pushed me to hang out with her. She was a heavy smoker and drinker, and…lots of “boyfriends” of course. We lost touch when I left for college, and I saw her recently on Facebook. She is single (divorced), has a criminal record, looks about 15 years older than I do. No kids. I wonder if she looks back at those days with a sense of pride/accomplishment? I doubt it. Can she even remember?

        Liked by 3 people

      • redpillboomer says:

        I’d call it TBD. One concern, she’s apparently put off having kids, assuming she can have them, to some unknown point in the future. Married about eight years now, no kids; it appears because she is ‘too busy’ having a good time ‘out there,’ in the world with her two bit acting career. Also hubby seems to be too big a Beta cuck to reign his princess in…and her biological clock just keeps ticking away.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        @Liz, my wife has a friend from HS. The girl was very promiscuous and was screwing a much older, married man( she was their babysitter) during senior year of HS. Doing NASTY stuff with another woman’s husband as an underage girl.

        She actually keeps herself up even now. Been married and divorced. My wife laughs that her current husband is a frumpy dude with a woman’s butt. Well she’s getting divorced again. She posts crap about how she’s “tired of all the HS drama – when’s it gonna end?” – clearly referring to her current marriage.

        Just think it’s karma – she’s banging a husband father as a young ho and now she can’t keep a man.

        BTW, my wife’s friends from HS tell her – “you’re the only one of us who did things right” e.g. didn’t sleep around and married a “nice guy.”

        Liked by 2 people

      • cameron232 says:

        Can I say something else Liz? Not to brag but my wife has a better looking man than most of her slutty friends from HS (the ones that actually still have a man). I actually keep myself up reasonably well (not as attractive as Scott). The girl that picked the “nice guy” (what most of her friends didn’t do) got a decent looking and loyal middle aged dude.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Liz says:

        RPB, going by what you’ve described…wife decided to go into the “entertainment industry” after marriage, spends time away and on trips with friends (of both sexes) partying, attention seeking (both online and in real life), it’s a foregone conclusion their marriage won’t last. It doesn’t even sound like a marriage. I’ve never seen a situation where a couple like that stayed together, and I’ve seen a lot.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Liz says:

        As a side note, for a while boyfriends/husbands have been advised that forbidding such activities will come across as controlling/needy/insecure. I’d say if your girlfriend is going this, dump her while you’re still young. And don’t accept this from your wife. In fact, enabling this type of thing will give the perception that you are weak and/or don’t care. First, make it clear this is unacceptable and if the behavior continues, start engaging in same (don’t be home when she comes home from her trips).

        Liked by 1 person

      • Liz says:

        All very very much easier before the kids come. Once kids come, this will be a big problem.

        Liked by 3 people

      • Liz says:

        Just to add, an example:
        This woman was a spouse in our squadron.

        She was on magazine covers then, and when her spouse had to take a one year remote to the ROK, she naturally went to California to work on her career while he was gone.
        There was an article about her pride in being the wife of a USAF pilot in one of those magazines.
        I knew it would be over, and sure enough it was.

        Liked by 4 people

      • Novaseeker says:

        Yeah it’s the same basic plotline as we saw with Nikole Mitchell, just in a different vein. Once the wife starts engaging in that degree of self-focused attention-grabbing behavior, the marriage won’t last. It can’t, really, because that kind of thing isn’t consistent with the expectations (and implied restrictions) any marriage arrangement will inevitably have. And the husband that was secured prior to the attention-grabbing phase doesn’t fit in with that, because he was procured by a person who was different herself at the time.

        It’s the whole business about changes during a marriage. A normal amount of change during the course of life is expected and must be adjusted to and accommodated by any reasonable spouse. Becoming a fundamentally different person, however, in any way — appearance, behavior, lifestyle, goals, social circle, etc. — will generally destroy the marriage because some of the fundamental assumptions on which the entire relationship are based have been unilaterally changed. Doesn’t work.

        Liked by 4 people

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Nova – A caveat to your statement would be if the fundamental goals, lifestyle, friends, etc are fundamentally changed to bring spouses more in line with God’s design for marriage. I would think those sizeable marital shifts would serve to deepen the relationship, but most people would not notice because the changes lack the relational carnage that’s easy to notice.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Liz says:

        “A caveat to your statement would be if the fundamental goals, lifestyle, friends, etc are fundamentally changed to bring spouses more in line with God’s design for marriage.”

        Mike and I are very different people than we were when we met. We are closer because we changed together. Went through a lot, have shared experiences, friendships, memories and so forth. But if one person is “unilaterally” changing, that is usually non buono.

        Yes, even if the wife is getting marital counseling alone… even if it’s at the church.

        Had a friend a while back who thought she was getting closer to God and helping her marriage via marital counseling with the church leader. Okay, maybe that is just the excuse she gave herself. Long story short in a few months time as she and her husband grew further apart from the experience she eventually left him and her two boys for the church leader (he left his three sons also). Looked them up on FB too and now they brag online about “their five boys” which they left and barely ever see.

        Liked by 3 people

      • cameron232 says:

        Not to get to far into the rating women thing (which is beside your point) but that’s too low bodyfat to me. At some point when a woman looks cut it starts to look like a guy with boobs. She’s not quite there but too visible abs for my taste – women should be soft not hard like a man. Too much androgeny in peoples tastes these days.

        Like

      • Novaseeker says:

        Yes it’s the unilateral change that’s the issue. Everyone changes, that’s the course of life. But significant, directed, unilateral changes by one spouse apart from the other one generally create problems if they are in any area that is significant.

        It’s not that uncommon, for instance, for one spouse to “find God” or deepen their faith practice or what have you in a unilateral way, and for this to have a negative impact on the marriage because it is unilateral. The other spouse didn’t participate or “come along” and wasn’t consulted in the process, and therefore it is kind of taking place “outside the marriage” so to speak, which is always dicey. That doesn’t mean you can’t or shouldn’t grow closer to God, of course, but you shouldn’t do it unilaterally in a marriage — it’s very important to stay on the same page there and grow in a coordinated way, I think, as it generally is in other core areas of life.

        Liked by 3 people

      • Elspeth says:

        Unilateral change is mostly bad. Not always though, which I’ll get to in a minute, but mostly.

        I guess about (14 ?) years ago, I tried to make a unilateral change for spiritual reasons. I decided my hourglass figure should be covered up. So…baggier tops, longer skirts, etc. My husband -unilaterally- said, “No. That’s not gonna work for me. Stop it. I mean it.” I think he spent about a month keenly observing to figure out “what the [h-e-double hockey] sticks was going on.”

        So I stopped. Immediately in fact, and have to this day had to learn to strike the proper balance between what he likes, my age (and what looks good as I age). Very few of my friends have this problem. I had to figure it out so I did. It’s not perfect. Even at my age, there are the occasional moments when I’d prefer being more “hidden”. But a unilateral change was not in my authority to make.

        Sometimes unilateral changes are good. Nagging ball buster wife changes . Good. Mean husband who drinks too much changes. Also good.

        We are very different from the people we were when we got married. But we grew together and the chemistry between us has held steady, in some ways maybe even intensified.

        Communication is key. That and paying attention to your spouse as much as or maybe even more than yourself. You can have a transformative spiritual awakening without killing off the parts of yourself that your spouse loves.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Liz says:

        “At some point when a woman looks cut it starts to look like a guy with boobs. She’s not quite there but too visible abs for my taste…”

        I concur she is too muscular.

        Her face was very beautiful (more so than the image there would indicate), but she wasn’t tall enough to be a “traditional” model. I think that’s why she went into the fitness model gig.

        Liked by 2 people

      • locustsplease says:

        Thats an attractive older woman i cant lie. Walking around in underwear having photos taken trying to impress men is never good wife material. Its really too bad for her a man will easily fight to the death to have something like that instead she wants to b on the streets.

        Liked by 1 person

    • Novaseeker says:

      I think it’s easy to underestimate the pull of it, from a man’s perspective. It’s an exceptional pull, precisely because it is available to women only for a limited time. While it’s true that women are looking hotter for longer these days, keeping that going beyond 35 takes a good amount of focus, effort, time, and so on, which many women are not going to be in a position to give for various reasons, including having genes or builds that make it harder to maintain. So women realize that the real time to enjoy their rock star status and have that kind of fun is quite limited. This is why the time between 18 and 35 is so preciously guarded … they KNOW that for most of them this is the time when they have the greatest likelihood to have that kind of “fun”, get that kind of attention, and live that kind of life. And if they don’t do it then, they never will know what they missed (for good and bad).

      Frankly that’s just a tremendous pressure. It’s true that it arises from a society that places primary value on liberated individual pleasure-seeking activity, but given that this is the general context in which we live, the pressure acting on women in this age range is simply extraordinary if they are in any way attractive enough to benefit (which most of the ones who aren’t overweight are at these ages).

      Men don’t face this issue. We are not as constrained in time as women are — we peak later (as Rollo’s famous chart indicates) and face the inverse problem that women do. Women start out extremely strong, and with an awareness that they are on a clock, and that therefore the time between 18 and 35 is precious for the “fun” things in life — the “party years” as Rollo calls them. Men face the inverse problem that most of them start off very badly and can easily end up struggling with women a lot until they are in their later 20s, so for men it’s a question of how to get through the 20s, whereas for women it’s a question of not wanting to “miss out” on things that they won’t have the same access to when they are 40 (unlike men).

      Liked by 2 people

      • redpillboomer says:

        “While it’s true that women are looking hotter for longer these days, keeping that going beyond 35 takes a good amount of focus, effort, time and so on which many women are not going to be in a position to give for various reasons, including having genes or builds that make it harder to maintain.”

        The two I mentioned appear to be working hard at keeping their figures fairly shapely (weight and hip-to-waist ratio), however their faces are starting to show their age. Another thing, when the women in their 30s dress in more revealing clothing — I’m talking like revealing gym clothing, shorts and a midriff workout top (I think that’s what they are called) — you can tell the difference. I saw one other female I know from the education program we did together on FB with one of those video posts; she’s also 30 or 31 now, and she still looks good in her clothes… HOWEVER, when I saw her dancing around in her video clip sans all the fancy clothing, I thought, “Yes there is a difference in her figure from 25-26 years old to 30-31 years old.”

        Another one I know, 35 years old now, she posts a ton of video clips, mostly all clothed. She is quite shapely with a great rack. However, I noticed she does NOT strip down (swimsuit level), even at the beach with her girlfriends. (Gfs are gyrating in their bikini’s, but not her–and it’s not modesty, she is one proud chick as I recall, very haughty demeanor.) In one clip of her, I got a closer look and I noticed she had some weight on her, that might be the reason; however, her legs also didn’t look as shapely as they did six or seven years ago. We all age, so I not going to overly critique the ladies, however it would seem the women have to realize, when they get into their 30s and start matriculating their way through that decade, they can’t look like they did in their twenties, unless they are an absolute outlier. IDK, maybe the ladies on here can help, any insights on their mindset ladies? These women seem to ‘battling’ the aging process, or attempting to do so; and they are not winning the battle in my opinion. They might be staving it off a little bit, but no one beats father time in the end, no one. That Manospherian phrase, “The wall is undefeated” seems to be an absolute truism. Modern women cannot stop it either, although they sure seem to be resisting it, at least in their social media posts.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        @redpillboomer,

        There’s a girl here that just turned 30. I considered her the best looking girl in our work group (prettiest face- there are some younger ones who are quite attractive). My wife saw this girl and referred to her as a “10.” She seems to be carrying maybe 10 extra pounds but in that “big in the right places” sort of way.

        Well I had to go to her cube to talk to her male cubemate. She had a super short skirt on – and first thing I noticed is cottage cheese cellulite on upper thighs.

        In general there is a big difference between twenty something and thirty something.

        IMO, Nova is seeing an unusual concentration of 40-something attractive women in the social/professional world he lives in. I do not see many women in their 40s who are attractive. A woman’s value at that point (value in the sociosexual sense – I don’t mean a woman’s only value) should be as a loyal wife of many years.

        Like

      • Novaseeker says:

        MO, Nova is seeing an unusual concentration of 40-something attractive women in the social/professional world he lives in.

        Where you live matters a great deal, I think, as well as the socio-economic group.

        As I’ve said in the past, we don’t have any larger number of pretty faces here than anywhere else (and less than places like LA and Manhattan do), but we have a much larger than average proportion of women who are very fit, in terms of bodies, here, well into the 40s. Go to a kids soccer game here and the mothers there are in the 30s and 40s for the most part (later marriages here generally) and you will see a Gaussian facial beauty distribution there, but you will find a large percentage of those women have slim/slender/firm bodies. Certainly not all of them. But around 50% or so of them do, which I am well aware is not like other places. It’s a combination of ambition, pride, energy level, work ethic, narcissism, and money, all thrown together. Again, they can’t do much about their faces (some do get surgery for aging deferral, but you can’t do much about where you are in the genetic Gaussian on faces, even with surgery), but they can do a lot about their bodies, and they do — hence why DC does not have a large number of “beautiful women” by any means, but we have an extraordinary number of women who are in the “6” category because they maintain their bodies in a firm way to a degree not done by as many women any place else I have seen that is of this size in population.

        The reason, again, is that this demographic slice occupies a bigger portion of the population pie here than in other places. But the same slice, in other places, is the same way — very well preserved physiques by a substantial portion (~50% or more) of the women well into the 40s. The difference is that here that demographic is a large portion of all women at those ages, whereas in other places it isn’t.

        So it really depends on where you live. In FL, where I traveled a LOT on business trips in my corporate life, I saw a lot of such women in South Florida — places like Miami-Dade and Broward. But South Florida is a very outlier place, even in FL, like DC is.

        That’s the story of the USA, by the way. Do you live in the “outlier places” (aka “The Bubble”) or not? It’s two very, very different countries.

        Liked by 2 people

      • thedeti says:

        “…but we have a much larger than average proportion of women who are very fit, in terms of bodies, here, well into the 40s.”

        “…they can do a lot about their bodies…”

        It occurs to me that this is why the emphasis is on hot now. It’s hard for women to be cute/pretty. You need the face and attitude for that. It’s even harder for women to be sexy. You need the attitude, bearing, and experience for that. Achieving hotness (or, at least, attractiveness) is easiest, relatively speaking. She can do this through diet, cardio, weight training, and good makeup/hair/clothes. A large number of women can get to “hot”, or at least imitate “hot”, by losing weight, toning up, and otherwise looksmaxing. She might not have the face or attitude, but she can get her body looking its best, and the female physique is what most of us are noticing first anyway. We’re making the bulk of our decisions on T & A, and legs.

        Liked by 3 people

      • Novaseeker says:

        “It occurs to me that this is why the emphasis is on hot now.”

        Yes, that’s correct. Hot is more democratic. Face is the least democratic — it’s very tied to a strong genetic base that can’t be changed, and the tweaks to it made by surgery are also undemocratic due to expense (for the good surgeons at least).

        Hot, on the other hand, is available to most women with effort (takes more effort for certain body types than others), and so it’s more “accessible”. More women can get to “hot” than can get to “pretty”, and so the standard was moved to “hot” from “pretty”.

        At least that’s a part of the story. Porn had something to do with it on the other side of the issue, as well, by bombarding everyone with images of hot and not pretty/cute/beautiful. The mainstreaming of porn has bled into other areas as well (Instagram, music video, actresses etc.), such that “porn hot” has become more of a standard. Not all women can look like porn women, but it’s easier to get a toned body than it is to get a pretty face, so the shift to the emphasis on body toning was more welcome to many women than could have been expected, I think, judging by how many women are pursuing that body type with a lot of effort.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        @Nova,

        I’m a face man so I guess I have aristocratic tastes/preferences!

        Liked by 1 person

  14. cameron232 says:

    OT: The chick who is trying to take Ron Desantis down is a Psycho-Hose-Beast.

    https://anncoulter.com/2021/05/19/only-in-florida-crazed-woman-stalks-governor/

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8344121/Married-Florida-data-scientist-fired-affair-student-arrested-three-times.html

    Married to Beta-Cuck, stalking the Alpha Chad who pumped and dumped her. Betacuck already raising her spawn from another dude, now she claims her kid with him is AlphaChad’s.

    Look at the pics of Alpha lover vs. Beta-cuck. Straight out of redpill. Alpha widow goes looney. 15 minutes of alpha trumps 15 years of beta.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8344121/Married-Florida-data-scientist-fired-affair-student-arrested-three-times.html

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8344121/Married-Florida-data-scientist-fired-affair-student-arrested-three-times.html

    Liked by 3 people

    • cameron232 says:

      sh!t! can’t get pictures direct linked – oh well browse them uourselves.

      Like

    • elspeth says:

      @ Cameron:

      One of my BILs has a crazed stalker. Same kind of weird stuff: reaching out to all his female extended family on Facebook/IG, sending weird pics and manifestos that take way too long. All I’ve ever seen are screen shots (not being active on social media), but it is some loony stuff. To be fair, unlike this poor guy, BIL contributes to these things (not the first time he’s had crazy paramours), but still.

      What makes a woman go bonkers like that? Move on already lady, especially when she’s ostensibly happily married to someone else. The attempts to make the man look bad always fail. 99% of the time, people look at the woman doing the nutso stuff as a nut way more than seeing the man as a cad.

      As for Ms. Jones crusade against the governor, it’s such a crock that as soon as you scratch the surface it becomes clear that it’s all a big con. I suspect that on some level, Desantis’ demeanor just really rubs her the wrong way; probably for the same reasons I think it makes him a great leader.

      Liked by 3 people

      • cameron232 says:

        @Elspeth,

        I’d guess that SAMs brother is alpha male. Just a guess.

        I don’t think this woman is happily married to someone else. I guess that’s what you mean by ostensibly. She settled after having the young stud Mr. Garrett and others.

        So this sucker gets sloppy 22nds, gets to raise another man’s kids, while his wife stalks another guy and writes a 348 page PUBLIC, detailed manifesto about her sordid affair with another man who might have cuckholded him.

        No limits to blue pill thirst I guess.

        Like

      • Elspeth says:

        He won’t put up with her much longer. That’s my wager, anyway.

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        Oh and I have to add this (guess I’m going to win the most prolific commenter award two years in a row). Look at the woman’s pictures. She’s a nice looking girl. But she’s getting older, chunking up, etc. So this schmuck she’s married to puts up with all this crap and for what – a chick that’s aging . Garrett and others get her best – the chump gets her bullsh!t and her middle/old age. Manosphere 101.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Elspeth –

        “He won’t put up with her much longer. That’s my wager, anyway.”

        Don’t underestimate what a blue pill thinking man will put up with from a woman if he thinks it is best for his kids. It has to be pretty bad for the kids to be worse off with the family staying together verses growing up in a broken home. In this particular case the wife appears to be a special variant of crazy though. Maybe it will wake him up.

        Liked by 2 people

  15. professorGBFMtm2021 says:

    Why nobody challenged my saying that MANOWARgames&they live are the true redpill films?
    This is how pope peter&most MGTOW see GAMEtm&those who lust in their hearts for it!Be careful its sola scriptura&might offend you!
    2nd 1stpope peter2:14”Having eyes full of adultery,&that cannot cease from sinning!Beguiling unstable souls(Of men&women!Whose blood is on your&other churchians hands!)they are experts in greed-an accursed brood!”Any thoughts about sola srcriptura or jesus being a ”beta chump”like some divorced dads for failing to carry his cross like a ”real man”?He should have benched more right?I’m expecting the prodigical son, decency police to like this comment!Thought the true redpill was going to stay quiet on international bee day!?

    Like

  16. lastmod says:

    We have a recall in California for Gavin “prom king” Newsom. I knew him before he was Lieutenant Governor and Governor. In fact I knew him before he became the Mayor of San Francisco. He lived in my neighborhood in The City. About a half-block away (late 1990’s). We were not close friends, didn’t share secrets or stuff like that….but at the local Starbucks in the morning “Hey Jay….having a party tonite, drop on by if you’re free” kind of thing. Out on the neighborhood street (everyone walks in SF) saw him and Kimberly all over each other like teenagers.

    I am against the recall. Why? We have a Governors election in 2022. Why bother? New governor comes in, and then the campaign starts for the Governor’s race. Also, even “conservatives” don’t know the state constitution here. If the governor is removed from office…then the Lieutenant Governor is supposed to become the governor.

    I never voted for Gavin as Governor. I even didn’t vote for him as San Francisco Mayor. I let him know, and he actually was cool about it. Wanted to know “why” and did try to convince me otherwise both times. He broke the “guy code” though and that’s when I began to shy away from him. He was caught with his BEST FRIENDS wife in the back of a limo “doing the deed”

    It destroyed this friendship of course he had since he was a kid. That was a line for me. You don’t touch another man’s wife or partner, or girlfriend. I don’t care if “she-was-putting-the-moves-on-me” kind of thing. Off limits.

    He was already divorced from Kimberly at that point, so okay….youngish, good looking man….yeah…women have always thrown themselves at “the Gav”

    But……..with that. It was low, tacky, and well…….smacked of total disrespect to his best friend.

    AS for Kimberly Guilfoyle. Pretty. Striking. Yes, met her several times when she was the “First Lady of San Francisco” (we lived in the same neighborhood). She is a “climber” though. After the divorce, she was back in NYC for a bit……sleeping around with better men than me I am sure……..meets Trump Jr. She becomes a “home wrecker” Trum,p Jr. leaves his wife, she moves in with Trump Jr…..and suddenly she is all about “conservative values”

    Really no time for her. Sure, friendly enough….was never a snob to me…but I would never date her even if I had the looks, money, Ego or status to back it up

    -end

    Liked by 3 people

  17. lastmod says:

    locustsplease said ” Its really too bad for her a man will easily fight to the death to have something like that instead she wants to b on the streets”

    LOL
    “she belongs to the streets!” to quote all the younger set

    Liked by 3 people

  18. Novaseeker says:

    Somewhat OT but relevant to the overall discussion and an issue we have often discussed:

    https://unherd.com/2021/05/why-young-men-love-milfs/

    As I have noted, there is a growing cohort of attractive older women. It’s still a minority of women at these ages, and likely always will be, and it’s not present to the same measure in different locations, and in different socio-economic categories, but it’s still a growing phenomenon.

    I have also noted that a good number of these women date younger men, often much younger … because they can .

    This article is interesting because it more or less confirms this, albeit coupling these truths together with a hash of misunderstanding as can be expected given the author of the piece.

    In particular, the claim that young men are pursuing such older women at the expense of younger women is a howler, number one, as is the claim that the young men who do so are motivated by some kind of BDSM/fem-dom desire. The reality of younger men being attracted to older women is much more simple, but a female author is unlikely to want to admit it: it’s easier to get them in bed, and it’s less likely that there will be an expectation of a relationship. In a nutshell, availability and ease.

    If you’re a 25 year old man who is capable of attracting a hot 25 year old girl and a hot 45 year old, the reason you may choose the hot 45 year old is because she’s going to be much less of a hassle than the hot 25 year old will be — she’s likely to be flattered by your desire for her (while the 25 year old will take it for granted because millions of men are expressing desire for her all the time on various apps), she’s less likely to play games (age difference, maturity level etc), she’s much more likely to see having sex as less of a big deal (obvious reasons) and she’s also more likely to be interested in a fewer strings attached sexual thing (due to the age difference). Availability and ease. That’s what the draw is — not BDSM or wanting a femdom. Most of the older women who are cougaring aren’t femdoms and there isn’t a role reversal — they want a hot boytoy who can use his muscle to toss them around a bit in bed and make them feel young again. Not femdom.

    And of course the article overlooks the fact that many of the guys who actually “opt” for the hot 45 year old are not guys who are having a lot of luck with the hot 25 year old, because the hot 25 year old has millions of options. So in that sense the 45 year old is easier as well. It isn’t the case that most of these guys, therefore, are “opting” for the older woman when an equally hot younger one is equally available — it’s rather the case that the guy can attract a hot older woman more easily than he can a hot peer age woman, due to the much higher competition for the younger ones. It certainly isn’t the case that the young ones are “missing out” because younger men are opting for older women instead of them — which the article implies and which is pure foolishness.

    Other than that, there are the usual bromides about women not expiring and so on, which is humorous given that the author cites the notorious cougar Kate Beckinsale as one of her examples — Kate Beckinsale looks nothing like almost any other woman her age, and is simply an extreme outlier ( https://horrornews.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Kate-Beckinsale-Hottest-Sexiest-Photo-Collection-4.jpg ) which most women will never look like. It’s true that there are more attractive older women, as I have written, but there are very few of them who look like Kate Beckinsale.

    In all, an interesting article which demonstrates what I think is a real trend among a certain subset of women (higher educated, professional, financially comfortable, older, divorced), but of course falls into the usual claptrap one would expect from a female writer who doesn’t want to recognize the obvious reality of the matter: a visually attractive woman of any age who makes herself sexually available will find a lot of male takers, of any age, and this is nothing new.

    Liked by 3 people

    • cameron232 says:

      You nailed it with that comment – 100% correct.

      Liked by 1 person

    • locustsplease says:

      I almost always hooked up with older women in my 20s. And yes, for the most part, older women were the only ones I could get. Younger women were so much work, and most were actively playing men when they dated. They would tell me this right to my face! And honestly, I was the alpha of my group of buddies. I remember thinking, “How do people get married??? I’m in my mid-20s and I have not even met (met!) a girl who would be interested in marriage with myself.”

      I met my ex and she was the first, so a few years later we married. Was it the best decision? No. I had never been informed that men get more attractive with age. But I had exactly zero opportunity to marry an attractive 18-27 year old. I would have rather had a young chick and we could have shared those years of life together, but these chicks would laugh if you ever said something like that!

      There wasn’t a role reversal. I did what I wanted at all times and they were drawn to that.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Scott says:

      Totally off topic, but Kate Beckinsale is also one of the few people on earth whose facial work actually dramatically improved her look.

      Watch “Much ado about nothing” and then “Click.”

      Almost not the same woman, and WAY cuter with the surgery.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Liz says:

        I think she was just younger, so her face was fuller.
        SHe’s a rare person who looked better as she aged.
        I too looked better as I aged (but folks online won’t seem to believe it, so I don’t usually bring it up).

        Liked by 3 people

      • Liz says:

        Hopefully this will work.
        Juxtapose here. Same eyes (eyebrows are shaped a bit differently), same nose, same mouth.
        https://www.entertainmentwise.com/wp-content/uploads/index-43.jpe

        https://www.fanpop.com/clubs/kate-beckinsale/images/5346838/title/underworld-2003-screencap

        Liked by 2 people

      • cameron232 says:

        @Liz, I’m not familiar with that actress. To me she looks much younger and girl like in the 1st link and more mature in the 2nd link. That’s the difference I notice.

        I guess it depends on which look a man prefers. Makes me sound like an old perv I guess but I prefer the younger looking link. Not that I’m scouting out women

        Liked by 1 person

      • Scott says:

        It’s funny. I look at those two links and see obvious facial work. Like two totally different women.

        Like

      • Liz says:

        Where do you think she had facial work, Scott?
        What is different?
        (she was 19 in the first photo)

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        To me the top picture in the 2nd link looks like the same girl but the rest of the pictures in the 2nd link look like a different girl.

        Like

      • Liz says:

        Different lighting, different hair styles/color….and about twenty+ more years for many them.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Liz says:

        FWIW, same thing with Christie Brinkley.
        Look at her in the 1980s and compare this with photos ten to twenty years later.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Liz says:

        It’s the “baby fat” in the face.
        If you have very good bone structure it looks better later (obviously there’s a limit, at age 60 they aren’t going to look better)

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        A guy at work said the same thing about Carrie Underwood. Her baby fat in face. He said she looked better with the youthful babyfat. Old perv like me.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Novaseeker says:

        When I look at her older face I see a leaner version of the younger one, but it looks basically the same in terms of her features. It’s sleeker though. I wouldn’t be surprised if she has had wrinkle-related work done (that’s very common these days) but it doesn’t seem to my eyes like she had massive facial work done in terms of her features.

        Beckinsale knows how to apply makeup — her face without makeup is still attractive but looks very different from how it does with her photo makeup on, and that may be part of it (more and better/more strategically applied makeup now than when younger), and she’s likely also just overall leaner, and that carries to the face.

        She’s an outlier no question, though. Very few women have that level of face. Liz Hurley is in the same general league, several years older and still hanging in there: https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/NINTCHDBPICT000622504970.jpg (sister also looks fine for age 57 (!) obviously genes in play the family).

        Brinkley looks older now (she is older) but is amazing for her age (67) : https://cdnph.upi.com/sv/ph/og/upi/2501612113133/2021/1/b729ca440e10a3d5503c51c6bf759588/v1.5/Famous-birthdays-for-Feb-2-Christie-Brinkley-Gemma-Arterton.jpg

        This is Brinkley at age 60: https://www.stylevore.com/this-is-great-christie-brinkley-60/

        Liked by 2 people

      • cameron232 says:

        No way. Christie is too lean. You can see the tendons in her neck. Women do that – try to stay too lean as they age. End up looking like the crypt keeper from Tales From the Crypt.

        Like

      • Liz says:

        Since we’re on the subject, and this might help some women who are aging, I’ll just post it here. There are some treatments that are pretty common and actually don’t work very well for the aging face. First, botox. Although botox with smooth out wrinkles it has an effect of making the skin droop (the muscles are disabled). It can be used effective before age 40 or so…but there’s another problem. Sometimes it wears off unevenly and the facial muscles start to have an asymmetrical appearance over time (if one does botox often, and many women in this age range do). The reason they say married people start to look the same is they mirror each others facial expressions and the facial muscles kind of change the appearance. So this can be significant. Botox should probably be avoided.
        Next, the dermatology clinics advertise a “face lift without surgery”. Can’t remember the name of it, but it’s a laser that is supposed to stimulate collagen in the cells via micro incisions (a type of scar collagen). Unfortunately what they don’t advertise (maybe it is in the fine print)…it destroys fat cells. So the face actually looks older over time. Fat in the face is pretty important as one ages and starts to lose it little by little.
        Liz morning PSA.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Scott says:

        Interesting. She looks so wildly different to me that it didn’t even occur to me there was a debate about it until I started looking around on the internet about her.

        Like

      • Liz says:

        “Interesting. She looks so wildly different to me that it didn’t even occur to me there was a debate about it until I started looking around on the internet about her.”

        I’m not trying to debate. If she has had work done (especially if it is “obvious”) there should be something to point to. Her nose, her eyes, her mouth… It’s all the same as far as I can tell. Her breasts were done (I know this from someone in the industry). But that was after.

        Like

      • Scott says:

        She looks like she got a face transplant from a completely different person. Eyes, cheekbones, mouth. Maybe the nose is the same.

        Like

      • Liz says:

        Her eyes and mouth have not changed at all.
        Cheek bones have only changed with age over time.
        Think she went to Harvard after that first movie and I saw a photo of her during that time. She was anorexic, and her cheeks were thinner pretty much like they are now.

        Like

      • Novaseeker says:

        Here’s an article that talks about it, with pictures” https://www.thesun.ie/tvandshowbiz/3352634/the-secrets-behind-kate-beckinsales-incredible-transformation-from-ugly-duckling-to-glamorous-cougar/

        To me, she looks like she has more or less the same face but it’s tighter/thinner, because her whole physique is like that. She’s an example of the “toning” trend I was talking about in an earlier comment/post. She is much more toned, physically, than she was when she4 was younger, she just has much less naturally occurring body fat everywhere on her body than she did 15 years ago — you can see it clearly in the pictures — and that includes her face.

        Now, I wouldn’t be shocked if she has had some “tightening” done on her face, either — it isn’t uncommon. But her nose, eyes and mouth are the same in all of her pics in terms of their shape. What’s changed is that her face is tighter and sleeker, and that’s changed about her body as well — her body is super toned now and it’s made her face look a bit different as well.

        Other key points — dental work, which she admits and which has a big impact on her smile, which is now perfect but previously was “British”. Also her skin is much more tanned, she is likely using fake hair, and the makeup is all adjusted to her overall “hotter” look. The makeup effect (which we have also discussed in earlier posts here) is substantial — here is a picture of her side-by-side with light makeup and paparazzi makeup, and you can see how similar her lofi look is to her “younger” pictures, in terms of the face ( https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2019/04/05/00/11881608-0-image-a-6_1554420387824.jpg ) and also here ( https://vietnamwholesalehumanhair.com/the-flawless-beauty-of-an-action-star-kate-beckinsale-without-makeup.html ). Again, even when she is going lofi on the makeup with the sunglasses/street look you can see how her body looks — about as low as you can go in terms of bodyfat without starting to look muscular, which she does not. She clearly is very small-framed, and this helps her.

        Clearly Beckinsale decided to change her look at some point and go for a much “hotter” look, and made a bunch of changes which, when added up, changed her overall look — teeth fixed, massive toning regime and cut her bodyfat way down, tanned skin (probably fake), hair, makeup. She’s hotter now than she was when she was in her early 30s, clearly.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Novaseeker says:

        Here’s another one with more makeup than she would normally have at the gym but not full paparazzi. If you look at her face and compare it to her earlier “pale/round” face from the article in The Sun, I think you can see how much thinner her face is, and how it helps her overall look.

        Here’s one where you can see even less makeup on her face — the impact on her look is dramatic:

        and

        and, to a lesser extent:

        and here…
        https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2020-07/29/10/asset/91ef07ae918d/sub-buzz-1057-1596019061-21.png?downsize=700%3A%2A&output-quality=auto&output-format=auto
        Pump up the makeup, lighting, hair and sexy clothes, however, and you get this look:

        and

        Liked by 1 person

      • Novaseeker says:

        This is the broken link from that post:

        And another one in less than ideal lighting, not paparazzi makeup and so on, for a sense of what her face is like in those conditions:

        Like

    • thedeti says:

      “…they want a hot boytoy who can use his muscle to toss them around a bit in bed and make them feel young again.”

      And who can get his d!ck hard in about 10 seconds. And who is down for multiple rounds. Men under 30 can go literally all night long and then some, which some of these women really like. Women of the 40 and up age cohort complain that men of their age can’t get it up, can’t keep it up, and can’t keep going.

      Like

      • Scott says:

        Holy crap. I’ll be 50 next month and I wish they would make an anti-viagra pill.

        Liked by 3 people

      • feeriker says:

        “Women of the 40 and up age cohort complain that men of their age can’t get it up, can’t keep it up, and can’t keep going.”

        They’re not meeting the right men in that age cohort. I turn the big 6-0 next month, and, honestly, I think I have a stronger libido now than I did at 16 (no medicine involved, either. In fact, given my health risk factors, “science” says that I should have the libido of a corpse).

        Like

    • Liz says:

      Oxford, not Harvard…sorry.
      Her dad died at 31. Which is really sad. Think that is part of her issues.

      Like

  19. elspeth says:

    “Don’t underestimate what a blue pill thinking man will put up with from a woman if he thinks it is best for his kids.”

    I hear you, but in the case of a woman who is combination narcissist, unfaithful, and slightly unhinged, I have a hard time believing that even the bluish of blue-pilled men hasn’t more dignity within himself than to put up with that. Not to mention, absent some serious evidence of heart and behavioral change on the part of his wife, at some point he’ll realize that it’s not best for his kids to be exposed to that kind of craziness.

    That’s not me being a divorce apologist, because I am always on the side of “both parties need to grow up, keep their vows, and behave like decent mature adults even if it means their fantasies of what marriage should be has to be burned up and die on the ash heap”.

    But that’s different from raising your children in a home where one party –sometimes even both– is incapable of producing even a semi-healthy environment for the kids. And nope, I am not referring to simply, “we argue a lot”, because couples can choose at any time to stop doing that.

    Liked by 4 people

    • thedeti says:

      You’ve been in the ‘sphere long enough to know what the bluest of blue pilled men will put up with when they’re under extreme pressure from all sides to put up with it. Just because you’ve never seen it doesn’t mean it isn’t there. That’s on them, yes; but the point is that these men are so pressured, so put upon, so shamed, and so beaten down, that they actually start believing the abuse is good.

      Liked by 3 people

      • feeriker says:

        “…but the point is that these men are so pressured, so put upon, so shamed, and so beaten down, that they actually start believing the abuse is good.”

        Scott mentioned a couple of years back (I think it was over at Dalrock’s) about adopting a “niche” counseling specialty in response to an example I gave of a young man I worked with who HATED women, after being raised by a narcissistic slore of a single mother, and who had become a player who “weaponized” sex against his prey. While that would certainly be a worthwhile “niche” counseling specialty in which to establish himself, I really wonder if the kind of man you mention in the quoted section of your post above wouldn’t be better – and, sadly, be a larger percentage of his potential client pool.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        For kids raised in church, it starts with chivalry garbage that focuses on the self sacrifice of men for women who are sexually pure as December snow. No rationale is given for why this is, it just exists that way. Then you get the sermon series on how men lust and that is adultery in your heart, with no equivalent for sexually pure women and pretty soon it’s all your fault. You either didn’t do things right, or try hard enough, or know what the day’s hormone level was, or endure enough, or sacrifice enough, or be a good enough servant leader, or … you get the idea.

        It takes a whole lot to overcome this and many do not.

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        Softcore porn with a plot and high production value e.g. Game of Thrones is incredibly popular among women including Church women.

        Like

  20. cameron232 says:

    He’s a simp. Look at his picture – that smile – simp smile.

    Her looks are starting to go as she hits wall. Even if she decides she can’t do better and stays with him she won’t keep herself up for him.

    I’d rather have the plainest looking wife in the world that’s mine than other guys’ discards.

    Liked by 4 people

    • feeriker says:

      “I’d rather have the plainest looking wife in the world that’s mine than other guys’ discards.”

      For any man who still maintains an online dating profile and whose objective is marriage, this should be displayed prominently at the beginning of it, in bold letters.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Scott says:

        I’d play the devils advocate here, but only slightly.

        When I was very young, probably around 12, I started to feel this overwhelming urge to connect with one, and just one girl in a way that would transcend either of our “looks” or whatever physical preferences or desires we had. I wrote about this in the post, How I discovered that I wanted to be married (2020 April 27).

        Of course, I could not articulate it then. I was 12.

        I can’t recall seeing any particular movie, or hearing any specifically romantic story that planted this in my head. I remember the feeling starting before all that. I remember feeling like there was some other half of me that was missing, and that when we found each other, we would just know. There would be an attraction there like two powerful magnets that cannot resist the pull towards each other.

        Regardless, one thing I believed for many years — decades really — was that if I could learn how to express this in a clear and unambiguous, courageous way, “women” would FINALLY understand that there are men out there who aren’t just sexual predators and who are capable of great depths of love and devotion.

        Now, at this later stage in my life, having the experience, the education/vocabulary, the courage, and the opportunity to explain, in great, flowery detail to [quite a few] specific women what the internal processes of a man who is falling in love involves, I have come to this deeply painful conclusion.

        The problem isn’t that they don’t understand these things (including the sentiment Cameron is describing, and you are trying to reiterate). It’s that they don’t particularly value that kind of depth (or care), and unless you are bringing something else to the table (like whatever it is they have a raw attraction to at that particular moment in her life), you might as well just move on. If I can’t describe it and the light goes off in one single woman and she says to herself, “Oh, NOW I get it. His love is so deep that it will NEVER run dry… if I would just give him a chance.”, then it is not because they don’t understand.

        It is one of the biggest lies we have been sold. Namely, that men are barbaric, sex-crazed, selfish creatures of opportunity, and women are deeply feeling, sophisticated diviners of true love. Cue eye roll.

        Men are the true romantics, and always have been.

        My job, if I ever get a chance to do it on a more grand scale, is to help men understand that, and be OK with it.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Scott says:

        So, to slam this home just a little harder.

        If you are online dating, it doesn’t make a lick of difference what you write in the body of the profile. If you are not meeting her requirements for height, sex appeal, income, status, minimum lifestyle standards, whatever–you will not responded to.

        Sorry.

        Liked by 3 people

  21. lastmod says:

    Scott I agree with you. 100% here. You and I have disagreed on things over these many years… but since you did that “meet cute” thing.

    Yes. I agree. Totally. Is it fair or right or just? No, but in matters like this…… there is nothing fair about it. This probably has been amplified since the mid-20th century in the West / modern world in particular (including Japan) due to other factors as well (feminism, the need no longer to BE married in order to survive, and countless other things that have been discussed here).

    This life-long bachelor wanted to be married. Be a father. I saw what my parents had. A very loving, stable and team relationship. The way I turned out had NOTHING to do with them. They have no fault in that area. I was lucky to have them. I actually weep sometimes over what they had and what I will never have. I had a good childhood and upbringing. People mock “Leave It To Beaver” and that no home was like this in real life. Parents didn’t behave like this. Mine did. No, dad was not a businessman. Mom did work….. but the love, the lessons, the caring for each other and my brother and myself. Yes, it matched.

    My depression set in sometime really after grad school. I realized I guess that what I had been taught didn’t apply anymore, if it ever did……..

    High school, college, the waste of money post-graduate-school… I was always told by friends, parents, and countless women I knew, “Oh after high school, you’ll meet a really great gal…” “After college you know, its a big country…..” “A great gal is waiting for you…” “You’re working in a bar in grad school….. totally will meet someone…” “You are only 25, just starting a career….” “Real women want a great guy like you, give it time….”

    Now, I did drugs in college (LSD). Sure, I did many a keg-stand in college in the corn field behind the campus. Yes, did the silly college antics…… I was not a saint. Was not a tool either.

    My already lack-luster social skills after college were failing fast after I moved to California. I still couldn’t even get a date to save my life, and I lived in dot.com era San Francisco. Single women my age outnumbered straight men in many neighborhoods 3:1 Anger began to set in. Resentment. The drinking increased………. I graduated from the occasional marijuana joint to cocaine…… and then things got real. Sure, I functioned, but I just slowly began to sink, swirl down a drain. A vicious cycle set in. “You can’t meet a great gal when you have a poor attitude!!!” More rejections followed, and the poor attitude got worse, the drug use increased…… Addiction slowly set in.

    Enter “game / PUA / Double Your Dating” and THAT right there turned me into a rat in a Skinner Box, as it does to most men in my situation (lower end of looks / lacking the critical social skills that were not learned as a teen or younger / college aged man). For men like this, this stuff will indeed KILL many a man. It will. If not, damage them in some cases beyond repair in these matters.

    The scales fell, and it just really boiled down to, you have it or you don’t. The “Don’ts” are growing….. some from no fault of their own. Some, by their actions that don’t help their situation… and its usually a combination of both.

    The sex-soaked culture. Everyone is getting it, the displays, the movies, popular culture, song, music, art, fashion……… It becomes a goading reminder to you of what you don’t have and what you’re not going to get. Even in the Bible, there are tons of stories of illicit sex and people “better than you”… and in a church… FAMILY / SEX IDOL over EVERYTHING and churches wonder why “single folks don’t want to learn about Jesus”.

    I can’t really be mad at women. I really can’t hate on the guy who is or was popular with women. I am mad at God in a sense, but my anger towards Him does nothing. Real or theoretical, it just throws it to the great One in charge, and we know He doesn’t care if you are married or not. He doesn’t smite the sinner, the adulterer, the murderer, or molester. In fact, many of these people are indeed married, or were, have children, and continue to be rewarded in most cases.

    I am, more or less at this point, angry at myself. Yes, I know that won’t attract a “great gal” either, but nothing else has worked, and nothing will at this point.

    I am not morose, nor have I let myself go. In fact, since I hit my forties the personal need for control of my life has intensified. Not by Rollo, or through self-help, but by a proper upkeep of the home, dressing properly and appropriately for my age, paying my bills, keeping an ordered life, doing things I just like (hiking / backpacking, listening to records, DJ’ing, reading on stuff). Yes, I do have hobbies. I like traveling to the UK, which I am going to do again in 2022 for a month. Life in a sense without fretting or wishing, or wondering about women HAS helped me at least get my own life back in line. Also staying clean and sober.

    And yet……

    That dream. Not a nightmare……. but I have had it frequently (several times a year) since I was in college so long ago. This dream first came in 1989….. in a college dorm room. It made me smile back then….. Now I try to force myself to wake up when it occurs…

    “A tree lined suburban street, well kept and swept homes…… smiling faces on the porch, or driveway… summer, hot… I can smell the green leaves and the fresh cut grass. One of the few dreams I have in vivid color. I am running in the street….. I can feel the sun on my face…. the heat from the street asphalt through the soles of my kicks (sneakers). Brassy blue skies…… so very 1970’s”

    “In front of me is a child’s bike, and well…… I am running behind it. Not trying to catch it… but aware. Watching. Smiling. Proud. Happy. A six? Maybe seven year old is riding this bike. No training wheels. Then a voice….”

    “Daddy…daddy! Look! I’m doing it! I’m riding it by myself!” The child (a blonde boy) on the bike pedaling, looking ahead, not looking back. Not afraid.

    “Yes, you are! Keep it up Sport! I’m right behind you!” I say beaming with pride.”

    “The neighbors are smiling as we go down the street, they wave………”

    It zooms backwards and up…..the image blurs, the trees melt away…….the haze of waking up comes over me, and I awake usually to an alarm clock, or just silence. I used to smile over this, wanting so much for this dream to come true…… and then the reality that it has not.

    Deep in the animal brain, or some other deep level, I think this should have happened, but didn’t. It makes me weep now, or wish the dream would go away and never disturb me again. Things we can or cannot have IRL manifest themselves at times in dreams…. and this is the one for me.

    I don’t know if I would have been married if I was born in 1935 or 1952…. But for the reality I do live in, it didn’t happen. Is it fair? Just? Or right? No. It isn’t. I also know I am not alone…. maybe once I felt I was. So many guys are in this situation today…. and many of them better men than I could ever be.

    It just is, and what hurts the most is just thinking I have been cheated out of something that came so easily to many others by them just doing nothing.

    ~ The End

    Liked by 4 people

    • Scott says:

      Commenter Eric Francis Silk writes about this often.

      His perspective is that there is nothing any one man can do in the current cultural context to thread this needle and land in a loving, Christian, lifelong marriage.

      And he is ultimately right about that. This is a social problem that will only be solved once the societal level guard rails and supports for nuclear family formation and maintenance are restored.

      That’s probably not happening in our lifetimes.

      Liked by 1 person

  22. lastmod says:

    And now, the haunting coda….. like the ending of “Strawberry Fields Forever” (1967, The Beatles)

    As soon as men in my situation UNDERSTAND when they are 25-30 and they have not had a Meet Cute, or at least had a solid handful of dates, or a girlfriend (sort-of, or otherwise), they had BETTER learn to accept what Scott says NOW and get on with their lives. Wasting another decade to other destructive behaviors or depression only will waste more of an already very short life in the grand scheme of things.

    Leave the haze………. When the haunting coda ends…….. Break through to something else. But what Scott is saying IS correct. Yes, an older guy MAY meet that virgin who is pretty, not a feminist, no tattoos, with N=0 count, who is sexy, who will want a basic small wedding, want to be a stay-at-home mom, and match your Christian beliefs perfectly………

    Yes, tons of them out there right? You’re just not trying! (sarcasm)

    Strawberry Fields Forever. The coda begins at the 3:30 mark.

    Like

  23. Scott says:

    I would put this as a “testimony” on my website if I thought it mattered. If I thought I had the answer to it, I would write, “Feel like this guy? I can help.”

    But I don’t actually have the answers. Just supportive listening and problems solving really.

    Liked by 1 person

    • lastmod says:

      You may always use me as an example Scott in your profession “Know a guy who…..”
      Please encourage them to NOT end up like me 😉

      They still may, but at a younger age……under 30 there is a better chance. If a man is trying to “get on board” at 40, 38, 33, 45 and now wants to learn “the-secret-language-of-women” and all the other garbage over 30…….you will look desperate and silly. Much more prooductive things to do…..like go to England and buy records, master a hobby (not video games), stay away from porn, excess drink. Don’t do drugs……and stay away from dating coaches, experts, dating gurus…and for the love of god don’t join a “christian church” in a suburban city. You will feel and be made to feel worse

      Liked by 1 person

  24. Scott says:

    It’s that they don’t particularly value that kind of depth (or care), and unless you are bringing something else to the table (like whatever it is they have a raw attraction to at that particular moment in her life), you might as well just move on. If I can’t describe it and the light goes off in one single woman and she says to herself, “Oh, NOW I get it. His love is so deep that it will NEVER run dry… if I would just give him a chance.”, then it is not because they don’t understand.

    …to quote myself–THIS, by the way is the basis for my rule:

    Never pursue! If there are not STRONG IOIs/meet cute scenarios from the first few seconds, move out! Otherwise, you are starting from the disadvantaged position, and it will end badly.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Liz says:

      Mike would disagree about the strong indications immediately.
      If you are the type of person who gets a lot of “meet cutes” and always have perhaps your skillset is different? You haven’t had to work on other tactics.

      Liked by 1 person

      • lastmod says:

        I will politely disagree with Mike. As an outsider to this my wh ole “freaking” life…….always….ALWAYS saw women letting the guy KNOW she would be opem to an advnce. In college at parties. In work in high school. After a baseball game in high school, hitting the locker room…..girls in the stands letting a guy KNOW she liked him. The look, the smile, waiting by the rail to “encourage him” if we lost and smile an congraduatet him if we won. In grad school bartending, I was the creep or overchraged the gal…or she suddenly didn’t like the drink I made……the other suave (good looking bartender I always worked with) could make a mistake, and it was “tee-tee, we all make mistakes” kind of thing and small talk and sometimes way more overt talk.

        All my jobs……seen it. In San Francisco, in Fresno, and probably very soon in LA (moving there in three weeks, found a very nice apartment in Pasadena btw….promotion into executive management). Saw in on vacation in the UK at the nighclubs (Mousetrap…a Mod club). Saw it when I DJ. People dance to my stuff, yes say I am good…and slap me on the back “Yo DJ, great set…..hey….get this DJ a drink” but me talking to, and “building attraction”

        Elton John has more of a chance of becoming straight than that happening to me.

        I cannot put my finger on it. I’ll defer to the looks side….I am old, thinning hair now…..I have an excuse, but even as a younger man…….it must have been a combination of things. Bad genetics…..not raised the right way…….not good looking…….stuff that really doesn’t matter at this point.

        If a woman wants a guy to PURSUE or be open to “communication” she lets him know VERY,,,,adn I mean VERY quickly……otherwise you’re gonna be doing the trained monkey act (game) and that MAY work if you are younger, and need just a brush up on a minor flaw or two……

        but really, Scott is correct. He should tell younger men this, and they should not waste their time getting that “oneitiis” or pursing to the point of making himslef like like a fraud or spectacle. There is time when you are younger in these matters…no praying for a wife won’t cut it. Get out there and build your skills NOW if you are a younger man (under 30) and don’t get hung up on HER game. If she likes you, you will KNOW VERY quickly

        Liked by 2 people

      • Liz says:

        Well, lastmod…
        I’ve never done lines of coke, hung out at parties or bars or whatever.
        This isn’t the way Mike and I started out at all. And we’ve been married longer than most.
        Gone through a lot of stuff.
        Mike is the type of person who sees what he wants and takes steps to get it.
        He didn’t wait for a job to come to him either. He took steps to get exactly the job he wanted. He did the same with a wife.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Scott says:

        Lastmod-

        What you are describing is the flip side of what Jack has labelled “Scott’s Axiom”

        (Its so cool to have your own axiom)

        It is more or less impossible to generate true, heart pounding visceral attraction from a woman who was lukewarm about you in the first place.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Scott says:

        Pardon me, but when you write:

        He didn’t wait for a job to come to him either. He took steps to get exactly the job he wanted. He did the same with a wife.

        Lastmod, who just shared with us his most vulnerable, heart wrenching life failure in the form of a beautiful, recurring dream (that has become a torture of the damned style nightmare) of a potential family man hears:

        “You didn’t try hard enough. You didn’t know what you want, and didn’t set out it to get it with enough force.”

        Liked by 3 people

      • Liz says:

        Scott, you’ve simply said he has no hope because he isn’t attractive.

        Like

      • Scott says:

        I have met him in person. He is plenty attractive. He looks like a combination of Lee Marvin and Paul Newman. His problem is spiritual, and to an equal degree cultural.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Liz says:

        It isn’t even about lastmod in particular. He is one person.
        “If you aren’t getting any immediate and obvious interest from women, don’t take the initiative they just aren’t into you” doesn’t follow the observations I’ve had in life.
        Most couples I know did not start out that way.
        And I know a lot of happy couples who have been together a long while.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Liz says:

        I’ve never seen him, only going by what he has stated.
        From my perspective attraction is more than looks. WAY more goes into the attraction equation. And it takes some time to know who a person is and what they are about. Attraction grows over time (or it can do the opposite, the type of incompatibility that happens when one is only looking at appearance and little else)

        Like

      • thedeti says:

        No. This doesn’t work for most men.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        I think physical attraction is a screening criteria. I agree more goes into the attraction equation for women but physical attraction is basic. IOW, women want more than JUST looks. And women’s physical attraction is more discriminating than men’s (necessary because they’d hornily get knocked up by the first dude with mediocre genes that came along if their attraction was as indiscriminate as ours).

        RE: lastmod, my reaction to the tiny postage stamp photo he sometimes posts under was he looks like a normal guy.

        Like

  25. Scott says:

    The reason he has no hope it is (primarily) because 4 generations of women have been raised with expectations of men and marriage that no human male can provide, nor sustain perfectly over the course of a decades-long relationship.

    Liked by 3 people

  26. lastmod says:

    Liz,

    He didn’t say that. If you read up a bit Scott DID mention this

    “and unless you are bringing something else to the table (like whatever it is they have a raw attraction to at that particular moment in her life), you might as well just move on.”

    AT THAT PARTICULAR MOMENT IN HER LIFE

    Yes. Very good Scott. Liz…not trying to be typical lastmod here and have a fight. Really I’m not.

    Mike probably is an exceptional man. No doubt. He’s a pilot? Yeah…he’s def exceptional. Way exceptional.

    Comparing my abilties, potentials, and attributes to his “he knew what he wanted, made the steps and ddi just that” would be like me making a movie about frogs but starring clams.

    Look, I’m happy for the fact I am productive, and have been for a long time. I am happy that I DID keep one promise in the mess of my life in 2004. “I will never drink or do drugs again”

    Been hard, but it is a promise I kept. I am happy that when my parents and brother all passed on, I was on decent and proper terms with them all. No dethbed confessions thankfully. No regrets of “oh, I wish I had apologized, told then that I loved them, or thanked them”

    They knew. They heard and they all saw me clean, productive and at least proper.

    I don’t think Scott fell outta of the womb, and knew by age two that he would be in the profession he is in. Many men don’t say “you know at age forty I wasnt t be some nameless, faceless bureacrat in an office building”

    Men like your husband do exist, and they needed in society desperately, but he is an exceptional man. I did not sa”an exception” I said exceptional. Men like me are not that. Okay, not in jail…not causing a manance in the streets…….but not above average in most or all things

    Yeah….that dream is now something I hate having. And it never subsides. EVerytime I have it, there is almost a panic…I know the dream is starting and fight to wake up

    Liked by 1 person

    • Liz says:

      Yeah….that dream is now something I hate having. And it never subsides. Everytime I have it, there is almost a panic…I know the dream is starting and fight to wake up

      Well, I don’t know what to say to that.
      It’s great that you got your life back and left your addictions.
      I don’t think you should give up on dreams entirely (assuming they are healthy dreams).
      Best of luck to you.

      Like

    • Liz says:

      Lastmod,
      Kind of tangentially related
      Mike and the boys have been doing BJJ (Brazillian ju jitsu) it has helped a lot of men out. Some of them were in a very bad place before beginning.
      It gives them a good community, you can do it your whole life and there’s always something to learn. It is challenging. It is much more social than most other types of self defense. Just throwing it out there you might like it. There are a lot of testimonials from men about how BJJ has changed their lives in a positive way.

      Like

  27. Scott says:

    I don’t think Scott fell outta of the womb, and knew by age two that he would be in the profession he is in.

    Holy crap, man. I spent my entire 20’s trying to figure out what I was really about. Got a BS in something I hate. Got a MA from a seminary, hate it. I was a 29 y/o ENLISTED soldier. Divorced against my will from a woman I thought was “the one.”

    It was right around that time I decided I was a total loser and I wanted to world class at something–ANYTHING. I don’t LOVE psychology. But it pays enough for me to pretend like like I am Montana pioneer/self-made rancher carving a place out of the bush.

    I looked at fighter pilot as a career for about a 1/2 second. I was a freshman in HS. I looked at what it would take. 4 years of perfect grades, ROTC, get into at least a 3rd tier school (but better to get into a 1st tier or service academy). I never had that kind of drive and killer instinct.

    After I was commissioned, I met a lot of guys like that. West Pointers, 1st tier + OCS, stuff like that. I was the one whose commission source “I have a PhD” which is VERY LOW on the hierarchy of “how did you become an officer?”

    Those guys are very high strung. No thanks. I got here how I got here and I feel like I won the lottery.

    Liked by 2 people

    • feeriker says:

      I think that some variation of your story here is … well, pretty much all of us here. Heck, I’m almost 60 and STILL don’t know “what I want to be when I grow up.”

      Liked by 3 people

      • Scott says:

        Yes. And everyone of could have had the same life Lastmod has. He is a brother who has fallen, and lashes out with a lot of anger, and hurt and all the rest of it.

        If I was him, I would probably be way angrier.

        And so I choose to read his stuff and try to figure what is really going on. Like I said, I have actually made the effort to meet him in person. Very pleasant guy. Polite, kind, unassuming, passionate about stuff.

        Yes, its true. I have never had trouble with women–at least not attracting ones that I like. Those guys that Lastmod notices get all that attention? Pretty much my life since I was about 13.

        If I could sell some elixir, some aphrodisiac, (like many red-pill coaches and gurus claim to) I would give it away for free. I know a few things about where that attraction comes from, but mostly it comes when 1) I am aloof, 2) I am completely “over” the last one and 3) I am “just being myself”

        That last one makes guys like lastmod want to jump off a cliff. So I just listen. Try to understand. Try to come with realistic solutions and when it is a problem that seems to have none, I say so.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        3) I am “just being myself”

        I read this “as comfortable in my own skin and not pretending to be something I am not”. This is attainable for anyone, but not anyone can be like Scott.

        Liked by 1 person

  28. lastmod says:

    What really got me into property management was not my awesome skills. It was humilty (which I had learn in my 30’s working at 7-11 and hustling jobs for the almond harvest in Fresno…..standing in a praking lot with a bunch of Mexicans who had no other choice…me by my own stupidity in my late 20’s and early 30’s). It was also a killer work ethic handed to me by immigrant parents. I did have a few good professors during undergrad…maybe that helped.

    I got a second chance in my late forties for a new career. I am now being moved in to executive management. I don’t owe this to a “strong woman” behind me. I owe this to “hey….I really effed up” and since there is no, and has never been a woman in my life….at this point career is the only thing I MUST focus on because I did loose so much time. Also, work keeps me from getting depressed and sad. It also now affords me trips to England.

    No, I was trained to be a school teacher. My MS is in technical communications (a useless degree from a highly rated polytechnic). It has taken me seventeen years to get back to where I was financially in 2003. Time baby….poof….gone! I learned ton in that period. Mostly was that no one owes you anything. You deserve nothing. Life is pretty much a joke. WIth that said, glad I live here (should have been English though, just should have been English…..) and not in Nigeria, or in some hellhole like Afgan, or Yeman, or Poland (Im half Polish, dad was from there….it’s a hellhole, and they all want to leave for England, here or Canada….few poles want to stay in poland, that is a fact)

    Liz, the suggestion about BJJ is well taken. Not men. I am into solo sports / activities. Hiking, camping and backpacking. Reading. Listening to music. Playing a video game now and then (slow burn games, not blast em and shoot em up types). I hate gyms and places like that, or places where I am going to be exposed and looked at, made fun of, or put down….a place like BJJ or Tae Kwon Do hall, a basketball court will cut and slash my healing Ego to ribbons.

    I’ll be fine. Now, Liz…..really Liz………me, a fifty year old balding man who is def on the “second side of life” is not going to meet that 26 year old gal with no tattoos, who has daddy issues and wants a fifty plus year old man who has NEVER been in a relationship, and just wants to marry a guy and gets so excited over him she burns the roast beef for dinner……who just wants to be a mom, and is a devout christian, not a feminist and will be patient to deal with a man who has never even had a girlfriend.

    A strong sign of maturity and wisdom in a man is knowing that good fences make good neighbors and knowing we like the things we like for what they are…..accepting reality and knowing dreams are fleeting

    Liked by 3 people

    • Liz says:

      You might be surprised about the BJJ. It’s not like a regular gym, the students wear gis (pronounced geez). It isn’t like other types of martial arts (Mike invited a person from krav maga to bjj…he barely knew this person, but the guy was sullen and spoke about punching walls on his breaks at work because he is so angry at people…we are happy to pay for classes if he takes him up on the offer).
      To give you an example, when the covid hit and the studio had to shut down here a couple of troubled young men who were members committed suicide. After this happened, the studio blacked out the windows and reopened. They decided they would deal with the consequences, whatever happened, because they cared about the people and for some this was a very big component of their community. Many bjj studios are run this way. Unlike kick boxing, people can take it up later in life.
      “Jiujitsu does not weed out the weak, the less talented or those with a less competitive nature. Because the weak will become strong, the less talented will acquire skills and all will become confident. Jujitsu only weeds out those who stop training.”
      -anonymous
      (I’ll drop it now, just wanted to throw that out there)

      Like

  29. lastmod says:

    Me, an older Mod in London…….well not excatly. Eddie is the King Bee here! Though I did buy a ton of vinyl. Good night all. Scott, you get it. As for me looking like Lee Marvin and Paul Newman? Well I have blue eyes…that’s about it 😉 Gotta pack for about an hour before bed.

    Liked by 1 person

  30. professorGBFMtm2021 says:

    Scott you need to up your game&aloofness!13?I was getting IOIS at age 4&first G.F. at age 7!So get that benching in &”be yourself more”!One day scott you will do better with your benching mission!Can you imagine if there was millions of scotts,GBFMS&rollos out here!?It would be a true redpill world of kumbaya right?As wimminz fainting became the national past-time like in the old days!When men were men&not betas&chumps!

    Like

  31. Novaseeker says:

    Mike would disagree about the strong indications immediately.
    If you are the type of person who gets a lot of “meet cutes” and always have perhaps your skillset is different? You haven’t had to work on other tactics.

    Liz —

    Yes.

    It’s important to remember that Scott is speaking from his own experience, which is doubtless genuine. In his own experience, because he is generally attractive to women that he finds attractive, it makes sense to sit back and let the women come to you — that way you can be sure they are interested in you and it saves you frustration of chasing a woman who likes to be chased, but doesn’t like you that much.

    If you’re someone like Scott, and there is literally another attractive woman around the corner, this approach is undoubtedly the best one, because it identifies the women who are interested in you effectively and avoids you spinning your wheels with women who aren’t … and droughts are a non-issue because there are always women you find attractive around you who are interested in you to such an extent that they will make it fairly obvious (meet cutes, obvious IOIs etc).

    Where this approach “breaks down” is if you are one of the much larger number of men who do not always, or even often, have a good number of women to whom they are attracted around them making obvious IOIs and bumping into meet cutes. This would include guys like me, deti, Jack — probably most of the readers here who have been married. Most of us are not like Jason, most of us are somewhere between the relatively few guys like Scott and the relatively few guys like Jason. And Scott’s approach is more or less useless for men like us unless we are capable of getting to the point of generating the same amount of IOIs/meet cutes from women to whom we are attracted as Scott is. What happens when guys like us take Scott’s approach without first changing to become more like Scott is long droughts during which social skills with women atrophy, and bitterness/jadedness develops.

    This is why for men like me the options are (1) what I just said (get more attractive so as to be more like Scott in terms of generating more IOIs from attractive women), (2) changing locations and trying again, (3) changing the kinds of women you find attractive, (4) sitting out or (5) another strategy.

    Scott argues, based on his own legitimate experience, that (1) is not realistic (men like Scott are born not made, or if they are made they are made so young that once you get past mid-teen years, if you aren’t already Scott, you’ll never be sufficiently like him to pull off strategy (1)). I am not sure what he would say about strategy (2), but strategy (2) has problems, anyway, based on how flexible you are to move, and what your realistic options are there based on what you do for a living, so it’s always a less optimal option. Strategy (3) is, in my opinion, extremely hard to do — in my experience, men are not generally able to reason or train themselves to be attracted to women that they are not viscerally attracted to — I don’t see it. But because some men seem to be able to do this, or have a broader range of what they find attractive viscerally, I include it as an option. Strategy (4) is the volcel approach, and that’s fine, but very few men are set up for it, in terms of really deeply accepting this and wanting it for themselves. If it’s not volcel but incel it becomes a source of endless bitterness. Which leaves us with Strategy (5), which is the “other approaches” — they would include Game (both classic/Mystery and later versions), which was largely sidelined by phone dating apps, and now the lore and advice that circulates around dating apps and all of that stuff.

    Men who are not Scott are left with these options. Again, Scott’s view, which he has expressed many times, is that if you are not him (by which I mean basically like him and have been that way since around 15), you won’t ever be like him, so Strategy 1 is out. Strategy 5 is also out, because, again as Scott has said many times, if you’re not a man like him, you’re not going to succeed with Strategy 5 either. I don’t know what he thinks about Strategy (2) — perhaps you can find a locality where you are more apt to succeed with Strategy 1, but perhaps that isn’t very locality-based after all, and there is a universal aspect to being able to execute Strategy 1 that you either have or don’t regardless of the context and location. Strategy (3) I think doesn’t work, but I don’t know what Scott thinks about it — perhaps he thinks it works, I don’t know — in my experience that’s not how male attraction works.

    So if you are not a guy who is like Scott is by the time you’re in your mid-teens, what are you left with in terms of a life strategy in this area? Scott’s response has generally been “I don’t know what to say” and “I don’t have any answers”. That’s fine, and it’s somewhat understandable because it represents an area of life in which Scott has no experience — namely, how to succeed with women to whom you are attracted if you are not, in a general sense, in the small number of guys who generate a lot of interest from attractive women. But for those of us who are neither Scott nor Jason — which is, in fact most men — there are, and there always have been, strategies that work better for men like us than the strategy that works best for a man like Scott. And generally those strategies don’t involve chasing woman after woman after woman, but they also don’t involve simply waiting for an IOI from an attractive woman that will never come if you don’t do something to generate the IOI. And therein lies the key difference: there are some men who passively generate IOIs just based on who they are (Scott), then there are men who generate IOIs based on something they do (most men who are successful at attracting a woman they actually find attractive), and then there are men who can’t generate any IOIs (or who generate them, but not from women to whom they are attracted). Scott is the first kind, so he has a strategy that works for him and men like him, I am in the second group, so there is a different ideal strategy for men like me. Jason is in the third group.

    Liked by 4 people

    • Jack says:

      This conversation between Scott and LastMod really made my day!

      Liked by 4 people

    • cameron232 says:

      “Most of us are not like Jason, most of us are somewhere between the relatively few guys like Scott and the relatively few guys like Jason.” Me too since I look like Seth Myers.

      Alpha, beta, gamma. I’m changing my mind about the greater/lesser beta distinction. I don’t think there’s any functional difference between “no attraction to” and “repelled by.”

      So it’s:
      Alpha: generates visceral (sexual) attraction in most women. She WANTS TO f_ck him. Averaged over all women’s attraction, this is the top 20%. The percentage varies by individual woman, her SMV, etc.

      Beta: he has some attractive features – generates low but non-zero attraction. She WILL f_ck him (she’ll negotiate the conditions). Averaged over all women’s attraction this is 20 to 80th percentile (am I being too optimistic, is the bottom level of this category 40th percentile?).

      Gamma: he generates zero visceral attraction. She won’t negotiate with him unless she’s a literal prostitute. Bottom 20%.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Liz says:

      I’ve heard this (selection process) likened to employment before and I (still) believe the comparison is pretty good (though imperfect).
      When the job market is bad, and one cannot find employment it becomes increasingly difficult. Because you can’t get experience until you have some experience. Kind of a catch 22. The person trying to find gainful employment typically feels powerless.
      If all goes well and eventually they can find employment (even if it’s not the perfect job at first) they can start to build skills and have something on their resume.
      Juxtapose this with a person who has connections, or was lucky, or some other variable that placed them right into the right job market and/or a great job right away.
      They are ipso facto considered valuable by future employers. In fact, future employers scout them out. (fwiw, Mike has been on both ends of this…the job market and the sexual marketplace, it’s a lot like preselection)

      Like

      • Liz says:

        Just to add, FWIW, the above can have little of nothing to do with the inherent worth of the working individual. A very valuable person can be stuck in a dead end job with no appreciation from his/her employer. Few are going to recognize their value if they do that.
        One can’t wait for employment to find them, unless and until one has enough of a skillset and/or connections to do so.

        Liked by 2 people

    • cameron232 says:

      We take the kids to lots of birthday parties for school peers (some of our kids aren’t home schooled). Here’s what I see in Florida among regular (working class, lower middle class) folks.

      The husbands are average guys, reasonably masculine (not soyboy wimps) who are mostly in decent physical condition.

      The wives are fat, dress disgusting, all have nasty tats, are loud, vulgar and really unfeminine. E.g. the offer nothing a man wants in a woman. And there’s no security in marriage. Women available to average guys are really low quality.

      Average women might have similar complaints about average men, IDK.

      Liked by 2 people

      • lastmod says:

        My peer group now…..air family (work environment). Everyone is pretty much on their second marriage (men and women) or are separated / divorced and living with their new partner….and they both have children from the previous marriage. Since I am in California, single, no children, never married, dress well “Oh, how long have you been out?”

        They don’t mean harm, just assuming I must swing the other way.

        I just tell them “no hate on my gay brothers, its not my scene.” None seem to have any single female friends they would like to introduce me to though (hmmmmmm….but looks don’t matter to women!!!!)

        I have known men to date anything just to get action or attention (no better than women in these matters) even if she is Reichsfrau with a horrible attitude (inside and out)

        Liked by 1 person

      • elspeth says:

        I’m always struck by your descriptions of what you see around you, Cameron, as a fellow Floridian. To be sure, I see some of what you describe, but it’s far from universal. And it’s pretty nonexistent among our kids peer group’s parents.

        In our purview are women who (for the most part, certainly not all) make some effort to stay relatively healthy and fit. Decent haircuts, clothes, etc. No tattoos. At all. They look their ages, as ours isn’t an upper crust, plastic surgery type crowd, but most (again, not all) of the wives look pretty decently preserved. As in if their husbands suddenly died, they could probably find a kindly old-ish man who would be more than happy to marry them.

        The husbands are a mix of soy-ish and more masculine. It’s largely determined by the classes they were raised in. Some came up more rural (manly),some came up through more genteel, academic classes. My guy is the only one who came up inner-city, but as is his custom, he flows well mostly wherever he is.

        I thought you were only a couple of years younger than me (I’m 49, husband 47). But I’m wondering if maybe your family is around a younger group given that you still have younger kids. That would certainly explain the proliferation of tats, even though these days a lot of old women have them as well.

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        Yes, Elspeth we’re 46 and 45 Y.O.

        Some of our kids go to a secular school that’s private but not rich people. So I’m not talking about e.g. Evangelical Christian homeschool groups. I just mean regular working class Floridians. It’s probably more prominent with those with younger children.

        Although thinking about it, I saw this a lot in boyscouts as well (the two oldest were in scouts before it became sodomite friendly).

        You don’t see this in e.g. Publix all the time? The obesity thing is what really jumps out at me. I see reasonably fit men with fat, tatted, freak-hair-color women all the time. I almost never see a fit, reasonably attractive woman with a fat guy. If you’re a blue collar guy, forget about having a woman who isn’t 80 lbs overweight. The young men here at work get decent looking wives but that’s because it’s a really good job (very large defense-engineering company).

        When we had some of the kids in an Episcopal School, there were more UMC types – at that school the “trophy wife” with the huge SUV was more common. These women weren’t low quality in the same way. I guess it’s a social class thing. Many of the husband were lawyers, etc.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        Also, Elspeth, we have always been a part of Anglican and/or Catholic churches that are on the traditional side so our kids haven’t had much of a church peer group of kids. Those churches are mostly filled with old farts. I want to move out of state for this reason. Florida not a bad place if you are Evangelical – there are some nice, traditional Baptist churches with some lovely people in our area.

        Like

  32. lastmod says:

    Nor can a man “wait on god, pray for a wife” either Liz. I finished high school with B’s. Wasn’t an A student. I was in “college prep” classes and honors history / social studies. In math (calculus, pre-calculus, algebra, trig) I had to study. Not just “oh do the homework” basics, I had to drop out of chemistry, and switch to general earth science / biology. It was too over my head and intellgence level.

    I wanted to be an architect. My basic art and drafting was okay……but I did not have the aptitude, intelligence or heavierr drive to be one. Wasn’t going to happen. I liked children, and I had a special needs brother. The path was basically become a teacher. An engineer? My aptitutde in math would not allow this. SUre, I could get that C grade or B if I really studied…..but I never got an A on a math test (higher level math anyway). Had to accept and settle……and understand I didn’t have “what it takes” for that career field.

    Have heard a gazillion times here that men need to get a STEM job here or they might as well go “crawl in a hole and wallow” because they won’t be able to be a provider. Many men cannot be this. They are not exceptional in aptitude or ability for this type of work. We need people who can do this work for society to function, but when everyone has a STEM job…….who is gonna stock the shelves at Walmart? Drive trucks to deliver, and work a production job in Des Moines that packages said product?

    Some people can grow into a field or career…I am proof of that….patience, training….growing the potentials they have to maybe get a better one. Be mentored. I cannot be Mentored to be a pilot, or a surgeon…but into general mangement to run a property, facility that houses the doctor, or lawyer. Yes.

    Nova, you, Jack and others here have had PLENTY of IOI’s over your life and evidently still get them now. You are more like Scott that you would care to admit. Scott I don’t believe is ready to take the cover of this months GQ or Esquire magazine, nor take on David Beckman in a “looks” contest……but I beleive Scott is being frankly honest to men. She doesn’t like you? Not giving the “secret clues” well, maybe its time to drop and go. Pursing a woman is a waste for the most part for the past twenty / thirty years. Men have careers to build (whatever they are), hobbies, skills to grow and with how the dating world is…..he is totally correct. Don’t waste your time on a gal that isn’t into you. Find one that IS. Men need to get dating experience (I didn’t say bedroom conquests). They need to have dates, makes mistakes and get that skillset going….especially if they are coming on board a little later than others. They don’t need to read Rollo. They don’t need to pay these dating experts a kings ranson for useless advice.

    They need exactly what Scott is telling them. The truth. And he is also right…….when a man doesn’t have these experiences….by a certain age that CAN be debated depending on many factors……he is probably NOT ggoing to get them.

    Look, even in the 1990’s. I had a good job. I was on my own. Not overweight. Still had hair. Men that were divorced in their thirties with children had a better chance of dating a woman my age than a guy who was a virgin, never had a date or girlfriend (like me).

    There are so many factors involved. At this point I would even encourage a younger me (lets say age 27) to go Vegas and get a professional working girl to least give the experience so can maybe at least get over himself.

    I wish I had the answer. I do know “praying for a wife” and “being holy” does zilch for a young christian man who is mostly average in looks. These men are stuck, and they will get angry. I don’t know the answer….but they need to change what they are doing. Waiting in church or the church social groups (bible studies and the like) are not working. Christian women are not all “sweet an’ pure, ready for marriage” either. So many factors……but Scott is correct here

    Liked by 3 people

    • Liz says:

      Perhaps my explanation was vague.
      I’m not advocating any career choice in particular.
      Everyone is different. Yes, not everyone can do STEM (and even if you can, you might hate it and when you hate what you do that’s not a good life). Not everyone can be a pilot, lawyer, doctor. I was a floor nurse (an RN mostly in med surg, as well as nursing homes/rehab, basically the proletariates of the RN world it’s not a glamorous gig). I knew a person who graduated as an RN and couldn’t get a job anywhere. It was a bad market, they only hired people with a minimum of 2 years experience so she had to take up CNA work for several months. It is what it is. In the meantime “working on oneself” is exactly the right thing to do. I don’t even understand what we’re arguing over now?
      I didn’t recommend just waiting and praying nor did I mention pickup or Rollo.
      The only thing I would say (and I’ll say it again) the “don’t take initiative unless there are obvious indications of interest right away” approach isn’t true for most people. It’s probably true for people who have a lot of women approaching them, but most people don’t. That doesn’t mean supplicate, come across as needy or anything else from excluded middle fallacy land.
      I’ll also add (before dropping the subject), it can be a pretty poor measure for character in some instances. Girls who are very forward aren’t always best for making house.

      Liked by 2 people

      • cameron232 says:

        I suspect the men who get the best results (lifetime marriage) from waiting for IoI’s are men in the middle. The hawt guys know they are attractive-can wait but don’t need to wait. The completely unattractive guys better do something to have any chance – they can’t wait around waiting for IoIs that will never come – gotta take risks to have any chance – better than zero chance.

        The in-the-middle-guys are attractive to some women and not to other women. Which is why they need a clear sign (which can be faked btw if a woman just needs to “get a guy”).

        You don’t want to be the guy who is just barely good enough – the “you’ll do” guy- it’s easy to lose that status.

        Like

  33. elspeth says:

    Our kids haven’t had a church peer group of kids, either, Cameron. Our church situation has never been particularly solid as we have grown ever more “trad” over the past decade. Our kids’ peers have mostly been through the school they attend twice a week, and it is a decidedly niche-y school. Philosophically, pedagogically, etc. It’s a small outfit but a very close knit one where there is not a big gap between school and family. The families -despite going to different churches- are all very intertwined and spend a lot of time with each other socially outside of the school environment. I am so hesitant to claim the outlier label because it smacks of snowflake-ishness, but as I ponder it is is just another area where we are outliers.

    But yeah. At Publix, at Walmart, at Sam’s and Costco, I see what you describe. I think most people would say it’s fairly ubiquitous throughout the American middle class and below. It’s just not something I encounter in the regular course of our day to day dealings.

    Liked by 2 people

  34. lastmod says:

    Cameron….taking risks….well…agree in theory. A lower than average guy…and actually NOW in 2021 average guys can and should “have a go” here and there and try….but still they have to develop the means to GET IOI’s from a woman.

    He should have his social maturity skills up to the best ability he can…..and if he is HONEST with himself, he will know he will have to improve this IF he wants to find a wife. Thinking ‘Star Trek’ is real and playing RPG’s everyday won’t fix this, nor will just having life revolve around bible study, mens fellowship, the pancake breakfast fundraiser…….he is going to have to be able to hold a conversation on things aside from that. Have interest aside from that…at the same time, throwing him to the proverbial wolves of “just go up to women and talk to them, you are the prize women just want confidence in a guy” is claptrap and doesn’t work for this kind of man.

    Some aspects of style, a picked up home (ie Jordan Peterson “clean your room”) and a few things outside of church.

    The bible studies and mens group are SUPPOSED to be equipping men in this manner. Older, successful men should be gently rebuking, correcting and inspiring here for men like this to grow. We know that doesn’t happen. Even the mosre successful, married younger guys (alphas), since they are “amazing leaders” should be teaching as well. They don’t and won’t.

    If the man is way behind, it is to be assumed that you will be in many of these manners talking to 13 year old. really. Many of these guys don’t know. This takes a gift of leadership…something that every man has “bounds” of and yet in pratical application for this. They are your typical PUA, red Pill type. It takes actual work. It takes time, and if a man wants to marry…and he is at this disadvantage, he is going to have to get moving…..or he will end up like me.

    I don’t wish that on any man.

    But throwing concepts, models, acronyms, charts, behavioral models, manuals, time lines, and homework doesn’t work. It won’t for guys at this level. Shaming them and calling them a “hopeless beta” or “I guess you just want to be miserable and single” will be a millstone around their necks.

    Many of these men need actual people who want to be their friend.

    For his part, he is going to have to really put the effort in or practicing speaking. Talking to people at church other than the “real man” who leads the bible study. He is going to have to make sure other social cues are met. Fresh breath, Clean fingernails. Walking and stride properly. Wearing clothing that fits…doesn’t have to be trendy….or even new. Have a job and do it better than anyone else. Taking the small steps and getting the proper encouragement. Remember….men like this are WAY behind. He may be 27, but in this realm…….he is like a twelve year old in matters like this.

    In our modern world…even the ‘christian one’ for dating a man has about three seconds to make an impression on a gal or she is not going to be interested. The only way to change this is to get moving, and he must understand this because there will come a time when indeed it is too late. I agree with this fully

    Just putting it out there.

    Liked by 1 person

    • cameron232 says:

      IMO, the word “beta” is misused by the manosphere and now even by the wider culture. Almost every man who calls some other man a “beta” is a beta. Tucker Carlson used the term on his show a couple of weeks ago. Tucker is a beta.

      BTW, actual alpha men aren’t usually arguing about these sorts of things online.

      Liked by 2 people

      • professorGBFMtm2021 says:

        Cameron what dou think I&GBFM have been saying over the last 11 years!Only true 2-way street relationship between daughter dads&single men patriarchy I.E.HOLY PATRIARCHY will restore the balance between men&women everything else including nuclear family is just rearranging the chairs on the titanic!Hence the epic failure of GAME&married game!See the Alpha-MGTOW viewpoint now?

        Liked by 1 person

  35. thedeti says:

    Regarding the comments with Scott, LastMod, Jack, and Cam, with Nova weighing in…

    This is just another expression of the insoluble problem. There will be nothing that can be done for an increasing number of men. And there’s nothing to be done for the situation either. Unattractive men will go it alone. A lot of women will be husbandless, and will be held to their proclamations that they’ll “never settle” and would “rather be alone than be with a man I don’t love”.

    Fifty years ago, men like Jason would have been married and had a couple of kids. And it would have been fine for everyone. But now, Christian men can’t find women; and Christian women don’t want the men available to them. There is just nothing to do about this. Nothing can be done about this. I wish I knew what to tell men like Jason, and devout Christian women who really are holding out. But there are no solutions to be had. Anything I could say would ring hollow.

    I hope only that the women continually asking, “Where are all the good men?” will read posts like this. The only answers I can give them, and men like Jason, are, “I don’t know what else to tell you.”

    These are problems that cannot be solved under current conditions.

    Liked by 1 person

    • feeriker says:

      “These are problems that cannot be solved under current conditions.”

      “Current conditions” being that the majority of “Christians” are far more in love with the World’s standards and values for relationships and marriage than God’s. So yes, you’re almost certainly correct in this assertion.

      Liked by 4 people

  36. lastmod says:

    Well…some of them can be solved, and that is perhaps the position maybe some in this side of the sphere could / may take.

    Men my age in my situation or like mine? No. Nothing will probably work. I know, you will have that exception…..a man who is fifty-one and met a wonderful woman of god, who is twenty-six (or whatever) is hot and they got married last year and have a baby on the way. Yes, it happens. Live in the reality though that this is not the norm. Like I said, no man who is the father of a mid-twenties gal here would set her up or approve of a fifty, of forty-five year old man….and I don’t care how “holy” and “set apart” he is. You would consider this very creepy (and it kind of is)

    If many here indeed want to help…focus on the men in their twenties and / on or around 30. It may well indeed do more harm to a man who is in his forties and in this situation. A man at that point has to call the game and actually think about his own well being, future stability and other areas. A man like this SHOULD be given fellowship in a church, welcomed by the MEN, and still encouraged to find areas he can grow in.

    Will you fail? Sure….some will not get married, but maybe a few will succeed. It will take more than a book, or a podcast to change this. The best thing you can do in your own area is in your church or your own son(s) or younger guy in your Toastmasters club….whatever. Become friends and help him here.

    Liked by 4 people

    • thedeti says:

      Yes, it’s true that for men over 50, there’s not much chance of marrying, unless they marry divorced women with kids, or damaged women. There are a lot of damaged women out there. It’s better to date those women, if one is inclined to do that.

      There could be improvement but it will be on small scales. No one likes my suggested response of “Women need to make their IOIs clear.” So, it will require…

      –Men to get more sexually attractive, to learn about male and female sexual nature and what women find attractive, to learn IOIs, and to just walk away the minute you determine a woman really just isn’t all that into you.

      –Men to stop pursuing women who are not IMMEDIATELY showing IOIs.

      –Men to avoid marriage altogether, unless they know the women they’re with are so hard sexually attracted they can’t see straight. Has to be Elspeth for SAM or Mychael for Scott level. If you don’t have that, don’t marry and don’t father children.

      –Men to lead, to stand firm, to expect her submission, to test her submission, and to walk away from any woman who can’t or won’t submit willingly and with good cheer.

      –Men to stop giving it all up for p_ssy.

      –Women to get serious and realistic about the men who will marry them vis a vis the men who will date and have sex with them.

      –Women to get realistic about what they can attract for marriage.

      –Women to get realistic about pretty much everything.

      –Women to stop having premarital sex.

      –Women to learn the domestic arts.

      –Women to learn how to be wives.

      –Women to submit, freely, and of their own accord.

      –Women to stop giving it all up for Chad (giving up their birthrights for a bowl of soup).

      After taking a look at this list, does anyone think any headway will be made?

      Didn’t think so. It is a Mexican standoff.

      Men: “No commitment.”
      Women: “No sex unless you’re Chad.”
      Men: “I can’t be Chad, you’re being unreasonable and unrealistic.”
      Women: “Don’t care – No sex, no nothing unless you’re Chad.”
      Men: “OK then, no commitment.”
      Women: “OK then, no sex, no nothing.”

      So, men’s options to break the standoff are: Become Chad.

      Women’s options to break the standoff are: Marry non-Chads.

      Most men can’t do the first. Most women won’t do the second.

      It is what it is.

      Liked by 1 person

      • thedeti says:

        I wish I could post photos on here of people in my family. Men who fathered children and worked jobs and supported families. Decent men, good men, but not particularly physically attractive men or particularly accomplished or distinguished men. They were average men. Some were below average by today’s standards.

        These men, who were my ancestors, who sired the men and women who became my elders and my parents – they are men who today would have women laughing and spitting in their faces. Men who today would be brought up on sex harassment charges for talking to women. (And that’s Christian women – women those men went to church with.) Men who today would be GTOW and perpetually unlucky and unmarried. Men who today would have experienced a lot of the same treatment Jason has.

        The point is that the standards for “attractive” and “average” for men have been driven up. This has the effect of squeezing a lot of men out of the market.

        Liked by 3 people

      • cameron232 says:

        Maybe deti. Or maybe marriage was what the radical feminists say it was. Institutionalized, monogamous prostitution. Man trades his labor/money for her sexuality. I mean maybe that’s what it was in most women’s eyes (the ones who didn’t get the top 20% or whatever). Not in God’s eyes of course. I hate to be so blackpilled but you wonder. Women don’t need men anymore. They want A MAN but not THE MEN that are available to them. They make that abundantly clear by their words and their actions. Are they any different from their great-grandmothers with the exception that they don’t HAVE TO marry/stay in the marriage?

        Liked by 1 person

  37. lastmod says:

    “…women need to make their IOIs clear…”

    Well… they do make them clear to that top 20%. What men are going to have to learn (well, younger men) about how to get women to give these IOIs to them, or at least get noticed, or at least chat with and have a friendly conversation, is going full-on “Women 101” with these poor guys. We’re talking about another human being, we’re not laying pipe here. Teach them about “female nature”, not waiting their whole lives for a “visceral look”.

    Scott does not counsel men in troubled marriages with, “Let me see pictures of you and your wife on your wedding day……ah…..see, she doesn’t have a visceral look. Your marriage was doomed to fail on day one.”

    People are complex. Not a stanine / stimulus and predictable math equation. DS even says, “Most people find someone to marry”, which may indeed be true…… But many here want these young men to have cold, frigid, reading-the-phone book-aloud types of marriages that are only governed by charts, equations and this model, that model and photographs from when you were dating, this determining that your marriage was going to work.

    So then why bother educating? Why even bother discussing any of this? Nothing is going to change right. The best option for YOUNGER men (Christian or not) who are not Chad is to give them the best guidance with a variety of methods and ideas, and building from that. They too will have to wonder about themselves and what THEY want, and go from there. They need to be realistic about what COULD give them an IOI. In the Christian sense, yes… these men should pray, and give and get honest feedback. To the secular man, he too will have to reflect, and become that well rounded guy in areas of Wellness, or those attitudes to be the best he can be for the potentials he has.

    People are marrying later, and when they DO get married, they have a variety of more bumps n’ scrapes. More hurt…. a bit more cynicism, seeing the culture stacked against them if they desire or decide to marry after dating a bit.

    You want men and women to marry young…. but not too young. You want a man to have a great high paying or established career… But Jesus himself didn’t worry about this…….. You want men to marry a girl a peak fertility… But they wasted their time partying, no good ones left.

    I mean, you say I am angry. You say I am broken.

    Yet the standards you are setting for young men and women to perhaps FIND this……… are standards and metrics you yourself did not follow, nor are your sons, nor are your friends. You are going to take a beta, average guy and make him adhere to Superman Red Pill stuff when he can’t even get a date. This is where some of the disconnect some of you have and perhaps it takes a “fool” like me to point this out.

    Otherwise, I love everyone of you 😉

    Liked by 4 people

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