Summary of the Meet Cute Phenomenon

The Meet Cute is spontaneous, subjective, and contextual.

Readership: All
Author’s Note: A few reader’s comments have been interspersed. Links to original comments are contained in the initial word.
Length: 2,250 words
Reading Time: 7.5 minutes

The context for a Meet Cute

In previous posts, we learned that a Meet Cute initiates a dynamic feedback loop, and that the Meet Cute is not about “women chasing men”. I’ve also written about the Significance and Value of the Meet Cute Experience and how the Meet Cute is an organic form of Headship.

In the comments, RichardP described the Meet Cute as a common event but one which has a unique result. [Emphasis mine]

Definitions matter.

The Internet, as well as Wikipedia, gives information on what the “Meet Cute” concept started out as. The “Meet Cute” is roughly as follows:

“In film and television, a meet cute is a scene in which the two people … meet for the first time, typically under unusual, humorous, or cute circumstances. … Frequently, the meet cute leads to a humorous clash of personality or of beliefs, embarrassing situations, or comical misunderstandings that further drive the plot.” ~ [Wikipedia]

The important part of the definition of “Meet Cute” is that, whatever the “Meet Cute” is, it brings a male and female face to face in a way that doesn’t usually happen with folks mingling in a crowded room. (That sentence could be broken down further, but I won’t do that as I’m trying to make a simpler point here.)

Brings a male and female face to face …

Honestly, how often are we engaged in activities where this “meet face to face” happens? I would say “constantly”. And the moment passes, and we don’t give it a second thought. Either because we are not in the market for a partner (being already taken), or we are preoccupied with thoughts that are far away from “looking for a partner” (e.g. problems at work and/or home to solve; studying for the test coming up next week, etc.).

The reality is, we all have experienced awkward, or out-of-the-ordinary, or embarrassing encounters with folks we don’t know. That is the definition given for “Meet Cute”. It only matters (that is, it only registers with us as a “Meet Cute”) when the meeting leads to a romantic relationship. All of the other times this happens, we don’t give it a second thought.

But there are many ways other than “Meet Cute” that strangers encounter each other face to face for the first time and then take that meeting into a romantic relationship over time (short or long).

Deti pointed out that men and women have differing accounts of what constitutes a Meet Cute. He drew a comparison between two types of movies to illustrate his point. He wrote,

Now I get it. Now I understand why girls don’t get the Meet Cute.

John Hughes and his protégées (Cameron Crowe and others) depicted the Meet Cute as we men like to see it. Always depicted from the woman’s point of view, or rather, how we men think women view it. Cute but vulnerable and honest woman being vulnerable and honest with a man. Or at least, we think she’s being vulnerable and honest. To men, Meet Cute is Molly Ringwald, looking at him lovingly. To men, Meet Cute is Pretty in Pink, Sixteen Candles, Say Anything.

Girls don’t see it that way. To women, the Meet Cute is Katharine Hepburn, Meg Ryan, or Reese Witherspoon. Cute but “sassy”, intelligent, headstrong, and “plucky” woman, “You go girl”ing it, impressing her man with her intelligence and worldly wisdom, and riding off into the sunset as “equals” and “partners”. To women, the Meet Cute is Clueless, Legally Blonde, Sweet Home Alabama, Sleepless in Seattle, The Philadelphia Story, and Bringing Up Baby.

And “Pretty Woman.” Don’t ever leave out “Pretty Woman” from the list of movies that women are determined to believe represent reality when it comes to relations between the sexes.

These films illustrate a clear difference between what men and women find “cute” or inspiring, respectively. In general, the first collection of examples depict men falling in love with a woman. A young, attractive girl’s receptiveness to the man’s intimations is what makes it “cute”. The second group of films are about a savvy or debonair woman who somehow manages to get a man to fall in love with her.

Interestingly, all of these films depict some elements of a Meet Cute according to RichardP’s definition, but men and women may disagree as to just how cute or inspiring each example might happen to strike them.

While RichardP’s and Deti’s observations are true, we still haven’t explained why some chance encounters turn into something more while others don’t, nor the basic ingredients for the sparks of love.

What a Meet Cute IS

In summary of what we’ve learned about the Meet Cute so far, the conditions necessary for the phenomenon to occur can be simplified into four aspects.

  1. The primary characteristic that determines a Meet Cute as compared with all other common encounters with strangers (c.f. RichardP’s definition), is that both the man and the woman both hold some measure of sexual authority over the other. One’s sexual authority is the overpowering emotional and visceral effect that one person has on another.
  2. In his Recipe for a Meet Cute, Scott clearly stated that a delicate balance of sexual authority is necessary. The man must cause the woman to be physically animated and totally out of her mind, while the woman must be only slightly above the man’s threshold of attraction — not too high, or he’ll lose his detached composure and begin to pedestalize her, and thereby screw it up. This balance also satisfies her hypergamic instincts and allows him to maintain a focus on his work/purpose.
  3. In the same post, Scott also said (in his own words) that the Meet Cute encounter must happen at a moment when Heart Trust can occur spontaneously (e.g. during a shared group activity) and specific expectations are absent in both the man and woman.
  4. In the examples of films that Deti gave above, one common denominator is that the man falls in love with the woman. Remember, men love idealistically, women love opportunistically. We might think this is one sided, but actually, women get a thrilling ego trip whenever a man falls in love with them, because “falling in love” with her places him at her behest and ensures the propagation of the Feedback loop which she needs to grow into the relationship. IOW, him falling in love with her creates the relational setting she needs to trust and find relevancy, humility, comfort, and security, according to the cascade model. Taken together, this is what moves the meeting past a chance encounter and into relationship territory.

anonymous_ng said,

“I always thought the Meet Cute thing was a situation where two people bump into one another and lightning flashes and they each experience a strong and visceral attraction to each other. However, this doesn’t necessarily require the woman to be obvious in her interest.”

Yes, and the entertainment industry is not the only source that casts the “Meet Cute” as an accidental occurrence. The Bible does too!

I charge you, O daughters of Jerusalem, Do not stir up nor awaken love Until it pleases.

Song of Solomon 8:4 (NKJV)

Another way to state this, is that the Meet Cute is not a transactional arrangement, but is orchestrated either by God, or by vastly more astute players in the game, such as RedPillBoomer’s wife’s aunt who encouraged their meeting (see the previous post for this case study).

What a Meet Cute is NOT

The only qualification for the man to have a Meet Cute is for him to surpass the woman’s hypergamous filter (which is actually quite a complex matrix of traits). However, the kind of woman involved in the meeting greatly determines whether it is a Meet Cute or not. She has to be…

  1. Sufficiently innocent (i.e. sexually “fresh”), at least compared to the man
  2. Nubile (i.e. sexually alluring)
  3. Young (or at least younger than the man).

Taken together, these traits render a girl defenseless and rather susceptible to having a Meet Cute and going gaga for a man.

Women who don’t have these qualities don’t qualify for a Meet Cute.

Women who are older and more experienced lack the above traits. Although they have the self-awareness and agency necessary to orchestrate meeting a man for themselves, their knowledge of the process prevents them from falling into Meet Cute mode (per number 3 in the previous section), and thereby hampers a true Meet Cute experience. Therefore, they must make a conscious and concerted effort to pursue a man. This is the context that Liz was assuming in her comment about “women pursuing men” (which was covered in the previous post).

RichardP went on to explain the context and motives underlying Liz’ comment.

I don’t think there is a man alive that knows every kind of “trick” that a woman can engineer in order to bring about a face to face meeting with someone she has her sights set on. As personalities are real, persistent, and different, I accept that some women are going to be better at (that is, seem more “natural”) manufacturing “Meet Cute” situations than others. But I think the evidence shows that there are plenty of men who think their Meet Cute is a real, accidental happening — when it was anything but.

As defined by the entertainment industry, the “Meet Cute” is always accidental. In real life, I suspect women have engineered more meetings with the target of their attentions than have occurred accidentally. In real life, this is often the only way a woman can bring herself to the attention of her target. And skank bars around military bases are notorious for the military men who think she is innocent and seriously interested in him as a man (as opposed to an “opportunity”) when she is actually neither. There are plenty of stories around about that. But I have been in the military, and I have seen that happen with my own eyes.

Also, Deti’s second set of films is more in line with the idea of “women pursuing men”.

The thing that Liz, et al. don’t understand about the Meet Cute phenomenon is that it must follow Song of Solomon 8:4 to be legitimate.

Women who chase after men, go bar hopping, get on online dating sites, and/or swim in the OASIS are violating Song of Solomon 8:4, and are disqualified from having an authentic Meet Cute experience.

Case Study — Scott and Mychael

Scott was the one who first introduced us to the Meet Cute in his post, Opportunities (2020-02-26). He has described his relationship with his wife Mychael as one that started with a Meet Cute.

Someone may point out that Mychael did not meet the three qualifications listed at the beginning of this section — that she was not so young nor innocent, since she was a single mother at the time she met Scott. However, Scott passed through her hypergamous filter, and furthermore, there was something about Scott that humbled Mychael, elicited her Heart Trust, and brought out the innocent little girl that had been hiding in her heart for many years. Something about Scott made her go out of her mind and weak in the knees, such that she was, in effect, a young, naïve school girl once again. They also met by chance, thus fulfilling Song of Solomon 8:4. Hence, their Meet Cute story.

Concluding Statements

Sharkly wrote,

“Why does it sound like this Meet Cute terminology is a bit flexible and a judgement call in the eye of the beholder that can be used to fit whatever we want it to, after the fact?

To me, it is beginning to sound watered down to where it is near becoming just the serendipitous way that two mutually attracted people first met and realized the other was attracted to them.

This whole Meet Cute concept seems to be just a clue to be aware of when vetting a potential mate.”

The Meet Cute is rather flexible, but we can’t call just any romantic encounter a Meet Cute. There are specific factors that must be present for a Meet Cute to occur. As Scott wrote,

“It is spontaneous. You cannot plan it. You cannot pick her out of a crowd and then do cold approach with the idea that you might “get lucky”. Your friends can’t “set you up on a date”. Your “wingman” can’t contrive a meeting somehow. It just happens, and it happens when you least expect it!

The part in bold is what sets the Meet Cute apart from other meetings. It is as Deti wrote,

The Meet Cute is not about “women chasing men”.

The Meet Cute is about women showing clear, unequivocal, unmistakable interest in ONE man to whom she is sexually attracted.

The same could be said from the woman’s perspective.

The current state of the SMP makes it obvious that having a Meet Cute is an act of God, and a man’s ability to detect when it is happening is a miracle. We mustn’t detract from God’s glory by neglecting this fact.

About Jack

Jack is a world traveling artist, skilled in trading ideas and information, none of which are considered too holy, too nerdy, nor too profane to hijack and twist into useful fashion. Sigma Frame Mindsets and methods for building and maintaining a masculine Frame
This entry was posted in Attraction, Authenticity, Choosing a Partner or Spouse, Conserving Power, Courtship and Marriage, Desire, Passion, Discernment, Wisdom, Game Theory, Glory, Headship and Patriarchy, Hypergamy, IOI's, Love, Meet Cute, Models of Success, Personal Presentation, Relationships, Sanctification & Defilement, Sexual Authority, The Power of God. Bookmark the permalink.

111 Responses to Summary of the Meet Cute Phenomenon

  1. Pingback: A Volitional Model of Cascade Courtship | Σ Frame

  2. cameron232 says:

    Pretty Woman – I never saw that movie but I assume the point of it for women is you can be a ho’ (literally in the case of the character) and still land a top-notch man (wealthy Richard Gere).

    So in a sense it was husband-p0rn for slores, reformed or not.

    Liked by 1 person

  3. cameron232 says:

    “Remember, men love idealistically, women love opportunistically.”

    Beginning to think that a woman’s sexual attraction is one of two ways: “He’s smokin’ hot” (5 or 10 or whatever % of men), or he’s an opportunity (good enough). The “opportunity” attraction is real – she really feels some sort of tingles (maybe more muted than the “smokin’ hot guy” tingles). This is why dread game often works guys. When another woman, particularly one more attractive than her, wants you, then she really does want to F-your-brains out. You’ve become an object of opportunity to her (again).

    How twisted we humans are.

    I acknowledge exceptions (Liz) to meet cute but think Scott and Deti are basically correct. I think the specific language they use (“wanting to f-your-brains out from the very first sight” and “breaking all the rules she sets for other men”) is a bit overstated but, yes, in most cases if strong attraction is not there from the get-go you’re taking a big risk wifing her up.

    Yes, Meet Cute doesn’t mean aggressive bar-ho’.

    Liked by 1 person

  4. Lastmod says:

    Still forgetting: She has to find the guy attractive. She decides and picks him. Meet Cutes are another technique that seems to be only allowed for the good looking.

    Meet Cute isn’t from God, nor is it a miracle. Its raw, visceral attraction. Most Meet Cutes don’t end up in marriage, and Scott himself will tell you that, he made that clear in his first video. He also made it very understood that men kind-of-need-this-to-happen in their lives at some point once or many times or somehow the trajectory is off and you will be stunted in this area…… or functioning at a disadvantage in the future as you mature. In his video, the revised one… he also made quite clear that if a man doesn’t have this, or something like this in his socio-sexual-development as a teen into a young man…. at some point, no amount of Game, going-to-the-gym is going to help you.

    And these are sadly…….. statements that are probably more true than false.

    Like

    • Oscar says:

      “…at some point, no amount of Game, going-to-the-gym is going to help you…”

      So, what you’re saying is that the sooner a man (or boy) starts strength training, the better. Agreed.

      Like

      • Lastomod says:

        Not saying that at all, nor did Scott. If a guy starts young “at the gym”, and still doesn’t get a Meet Cute, it doesn’t matter. Watch Scott’s video.

        Like

      • Oscar says:

        Do his odds of getting a “meet cute” increase, or decrease if he’s stronger?

        Even if he doesn’t get a “meet cute” (I’ve never had one. So what?), strength is its own reward. The health, and longevity benefits alone are worth the toil and sweat.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        I would say that women punish unattractiveness more severely than they reward attractiveness, at least in terms of getting into a LTR with you. So they just have an attraction floor which combines elements of looks, masculinity, personality (confidence, “sense of humor”), success or prospects for success, etc. And yeah, the relative emphasis on these things varies from woman to woman.

        If you’re below the attraction floor of women you’re attracted to then yes, you’re screwed I think. I don’t know how often a man actually overcomes this through working out or whatever. You hear these stories about skinny, low-self esteem guys becoming ripped monsters exuding confidence e.g. Dante Trudel the “dogcrapp training” guy. (I know, lovely name.) I don’t know of any personal examples, so these guy claiming these things could be snake oil salesmen, but it can’t hurt to look your best, and yeah, it helps your confidence. (When I was lifting a lot of weight, I was a lot more confident.)

        I think lifting so you’re not a skinny looking weakling (if you can do it) might make you exceed the attraction floor of a larger number of women (people’s attraction floors, in general, probably positively correlate with their personal attractiveness).

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        Jason, I like and respect Scott but I don’t think everything he says is perfect. I respect your intentions of keeping things realistic – not wanting to give men false hope – stringing them along for years like happened to you.

        If I were a young man, I would do the best I could at self improvement (up to what I’m willing to put into it, e.g. I will never be a gym rat – a woman isn’t worth the price of that), with the realization that it doesn’t guarantee anything. I have encouraged my son to lift and he’s a decent sized man now, not the skinny kid he was 18 months ago. We’ll see if that’s enough.

        Like

      • Lastmod says:

        “Even if he doesn’t get a “meet cute” (I’ve never had one. So what?), strength is its own reward. The health, and longevity benefits alone are worth the toil and sweat.”

        This post isn’t about strength training for its own health benefits Oscar. Gyms are also soul crushing places. I tried going for a stint in the late 1990’s. The “snickers” the laughs and pity looks from hot women, “Oh look, the ugly guy is going to try to look better…” The “trainers” who spend two minutes with you and spend three freaking hours talking to women was not worth the cost.

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        By the way, when I got my Meet Cute (from my wife), I was around 140 pounds. I had been starvation dieting with little protein and doing a bunch of cardio and I lost a ton of muscle. I only outweighed her by about 15 pounds.

        Like

      • Jack says:

        Cameron232 wrote,

        “By the way, when I got my Meet Cute (from my wife), I was around 140 pounds. I had been starvation dieting with little protein and doing a bunch of cardio and I lost a ton of muscle. I only outweighed her by about 15 pounds.”

        The importance of being thin and fit cannot be overemphasized. It’s a necessary qualifier just to get your foot in the door of the SMP.

        Here in Asia, there’s a huge emphasis on staying thin. This is especially true for women, and women will starve themselves to stay thin. (I assume this is because they need the positive attention — it’s that much of a motivation!) For the most part, most people who are thin are generally attractive, even if they are out of shape (see photo below). The thing that makes one stand out from the crowd in terms of attractiveness is being very physically fit, and this shows through in many ways, e.g. general energy level, a glowing complexion, a spring in one’s step, and so on. Among those who lead an active lifestyle, I’ve noticed that this usually correlates with better health, greater confidence, popularity, happiness, and overall success.

        I think this is also true in the U.S., and around the world as well. But most people have no motivation to stay thin, much less fit. So the small number of people who take the effort to stay thin and become fit can easily rise to the top 20% of attractiveness. As Oscar said,

        “These days, >50% isn’t that tough to achieve.”

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        I agree that gyms suck. One thing if you have room is you can invest in equipment at home. A set of plates, an Olympic bar, a flat bench and a power cage can be purchased. Personal trainers are overrated in my opinion – there’s tons of videos and websites e.g. Mark Rippetoe’s Starting Strength. It does help if someone who knows a thing or two can help you. I’ve learned a lot just from what I’ve done wrong.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Oscar says:

        “You hear these stories about skinny, low-self esteem guys becoming ripped monsters exuding confidence…”

        If women were only attracted to “ripped monsters” none of us would be married, and only “ripped monsters” would exist.

        That’s the same logical fallacy women frequently commit. They pretend that men are only attracted to supermodels, and NFL cheerleaders. Why? Because it gives them an excuse to stay obese. “I can never look like a supermodel, or an NFL cheerleader, so there’s no point in trying. I may as well keep guzzling pints of ice cream.”

        A lot of men do something similar. “I can’t look like a bodybuilder, or an NFL linebacker, so there’s no point in strength training.”

        Average, ordinary people make up the majority of the population because a lot of people found average, ordinary genetics attractive enough to procreate with them.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Oscar says:

        @ Jason

        “This post isn’t about strength training for its own health benefits Oscar.”

        Okay. Then answer the question. Do a man’s odds of attracting a woman increase, or decrease if he’s stronger?

        “Gyms are also soul crushing places. I tried going for a stint in the late 1990’s. The “snickers” the laughs and pity looks from hot women, “Oh look, the ugly guy is going to try to look better…” The “trainers” who spend two minutes with you and spend three freaking hours talking to women was not worth the cost.”

        So? I train in my garage.

        @ Cameron

        “I agree that gyms suck. One thing if you have room is you can invest in equipment at home. A set of plates, an Olympic bar, a flat bench and a power cage can be purchased. Personal trainers are overrated in my opinion – there’s tons of videos and websites, e.g. Mark Rippetoe’s Starting Strength.”

        Exactly. When I get home I’ll post my setup, but here’s a good article on the subject.

        Starting Strength: How to build a home gym

        Like

      • thedeti says:

        “Gyms are also soul crushing places. I tried going for a stint in the late 1990’s. The “snickers” the laughs and pity looks from hot women… “Oh look, the ugly guy is going to try to look better…” The “trainers” who spend two minutes with you and spend three freaking hours talking to women was not worth the cost.

        So what?

        Jason, you really need to stop caring so much about what other people think. You’re not at the gym to justify your existence to “hot women” or to trainers. You’re there to work out and look and feel better. You paid your money, you have as much right to work out there as anyone else. Who cares what they think? They can stuff their opinions; you’re there to do your workout and get your money’s worth.

        Liked by 2 people

    • Joe2 says:

      I agree that no amount of game or going-to-the-gym will help. In normal social interactions all the women can notice about a man is his relative size, such as height, weight and bone structure. She doesn’t know whether he has biceps like Popeye or a six pack under the clothes. That’s because people wear clothes. She can also notice his facial features. And with Meet Cute she doesn’t know anything about him. The attraction is simply raw visceral attraction. It either happens or it doesn’t.

      It’s similar to the “it” factor. Some aspiring actors, musicians, etc. have “it” and people will pay $$ to see them perform. Others may also have similar skills, but are unable to fill the venue. They just don’t have “it”, and no amount of additional practice and training will help. It’s qualitative; not quantitative.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Oscar says:

        “I agree that no amount of game or going-to-the-gym will help. In normal social interactions all the women can notice about a man is his relative size, such as height, weight and bone structure.”

        Did you realize that the guy you’re replying to said that “no amount of Game, going-to-the-gym is going to help you” is 6’3″?

        “She doesn’t know whether he has biceps like Popeye or a six pack under the clothes. That’s because people wear clothes.”

        Who do you think looks better in clothes (especially if they fit correctly); a man who has broad shoulders, traps, and a narrow waist, or a man who doesn’t?

        Like

  5. redpillboomer says:

    “However, the kind of woman involved in the meeting greatly determines whether it is a Meet Cute or not. She has to be…

    1. Sufficiently innocent (i.e. sexually “fresh”), at least compared to the man
    2. Nubile (i.e. sexually alluring)
    3. Young (or at least younger than the man).

    Taken together, these traits render a girl defenseless and rather susceptible to having a Meet Cute and going gaga for a man.”

    Check the box on all three when I had my Meet Cute that turned into my wife eventually. Interestingly, a couple other things entered into the equation: 1) Competition anxiety, and 2) Other male suitors.

    The competition anxiety was the 29 year old I’ve mentioned in previous posts, and interestingly enough her 37 year old aunt as well. My Meet Cute was well aware of the 29 year old, although she didn’t know her personally. AND, this is the best part, DESPISED her because she felt the 29 year old’s ire directed at her for ‘stealing me.’ The ire wasn’t delivered in words exchanged between them, but rather in dirty looks she received from the 29 year old. This led to competition anxiety on my 21 year old’s part, but more importantly competition determination to DEFEAT the 29 year old.

    At the point in time these two were dealing with each other, I’d already moved away from the 29 year old, but my 21 year old didn’t see it that way. She felt the 29 year old was a threat and wanted her ‘removed.’ She engaging in a ‘cold war’ of looks exchanged. She gave the 29 year old a taste of her own medicine with dirty looks and a haughty demeanor around her that said, “I won b!tch!” I have to admit, I enjoyed the entire process. It was like having a front row seat at a cat fight. Very entertaining in its own way.

    Her aunt tried to do an end run around her niece but failed. Actually she was never in the running in that she was 37 and divorced with three teenage kids. Even in my Blue Pill mindset, I was like, “NO WAY!” But her niece didn’t see it that way, more like her aunt was trying to disrupt things and it might scare me off, that was her fear. I finally told her what I really thought about her aunt and she was glad to hear that and began speaking with her aunt after giving her the silent treatment for a couple of weeks.

    The other male suitors were interesting. One guy my age she sort of liked as a person, but thought he was a little creepy. He was, but she liked the attention from him because he’d flirt with her and it felt good to have the additional male attention/validation. He finally blew it one night when we were all at a restaurant after the singles service, and he, in classic meme fashion, blew up at the waitress. My 21 year old was aghast because she was a waitress too. From that point on, she didn’t even want to be around him. I never considered him serious competition because he didn’t meet her hypergamous filters. Although at that time I didn’t know what hypergamous filters were, I knew he didn’t reach my level, and he had not passed any Meet Cute criteria (as we’re talking about it now). The other male was out of the running because he was ‘too old’ and ‘weird’ to her. He was about 50 and was a divorced guy. What was humorous to me was him trying pick up like moves on her. She didn’t get mad at him, she thought it was kind of cute, but WEIRD for a man her father’s age to be hitting on her.

    Anyways, the point of all this. My meeting my future wife was definitely a Meet Cute situation. The other stuff, the drama from the other four ‘participants,’ did nothing to impact the Meet Cute dynamic in any way, and actually served as an entertaining backdrop to the whole thing. It does to this day when my wife and I occasionally reminisce about it and how silly/funny the whole thing was back then.

    Liked by 1 person

  6. anonymous_ng says:

    IMO, the whole Meet Cute (MC) thing is overblown, especially to think it’s some kind of necessity.

    Honestly, about all that’s required for a happy and fulfilling marriage is for the wife to decide for there to be one. That’s it.

    The number of guys I know who are good men, don’t drink, don’t cheat, don’t abuse their wives or kids, work hard, etc. who got frivorced are LEGION. It’s NOT THEIR FAULT. It’s the fault of their wives and the culture that spawned them.

    Sure, the MC might help, but I know plenty of marriages that appear to be pretty good ones that didn’t have a MC at the start.

    I know guys who aren’t top 20% who are happily married. Sure, they aren’t bottom 20%, but they’re average, but their wives didn’t decide to blow things up because of some vague and unspecific malaise of unhappiness.

    Are these men getting sex from their wives as often as they’d like? No way for me to know, but from the outside looking in, they appear to have happy marriages.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Red Pill Apostle says:

      “Are these men getting sex from their wives as often as they’d like? No way for me to know, but from the outside looking in, they appear to have happy marriages.”

      Appearances can be deceiving. I believe that most men are merely at a point of satisfactory status when it comes to their marriages. They are comfortable enough to not rock the boat in order to get what they really want out of their wives. In some cases, mine is one and Deti’s is another, it takes an awful amount of discord to finally prod the husband to action.

      Appearances are also something to be careful when assessing. Deti, in one of our many back and forth emails, mentioned that what my wife’s social media portrays and what I was telling him, did not match. At. All. Outward appearances tend to be an area that women put higher priority on than men do and it shows. The old joke about how the poor husband is going to “hear it” from the wife when they get home rings true far too often.

      Here is my specific experience with how deep the desire to maintain appearances is with women. My wife was fine with me emailing with other men about our marriage. Deti and Mike Davis are guys from the internet that she’ll never meet, and frankly, she does not care about their opinions of our marriage. But when she found out that I had been talking with my brother and my best man too, there were crocodile tears. The reason for her emotional response was because she’d actually have to face them at some point, and her worries over what they now might think of her is what hurt her. She’s been much, much better of late, but she will ask every once in a while if I tell them how well she’s doing. It bother’s her that much.

      Liked by 2 people

      • anonymous_ng says:

        @RPA, thanks for pointing that out. My ex and I still spent plenty of time in bed together right up until the end.

        Like

    • “IMO, the whole meet cute(MC) thing is overblown, especially to think it’s some kind of necessity.”

      Agreed. Too much is made out of the top 20% and MC. Yes, those are nice if you can get there but are not needed for many men. Group think opinion in a bad way.

      I posted the statistics on my blog, but no one wants to acknowledge that 85-90% of men and women still get married (95% before feminism) though it’s slowly trending down. Yes, that includes rampant obesity too. 50-60%+ of marriages never end in divorce. Sexlessness is not an insane amount in marriages either. I believe still 60%+ are at least 2-3+ times per week while another 20% are at 1x per week or so. It’s the bottom 20% that are on life support at 1x per month or 1x per year.

      The thing is, if you can get to above average (>50%) you still have fairly good prospects. And if you know what you need to work on like attraction vectors you’re way ahead of the game.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Oscar says:

        “The thing is if you can get to above average (>50%) you still have fairly good prospects. And if you know what you need to work on like attraction vectors you’re way ahead of the game.”

        These days, >50% isn’t that tough to achieve.

        Liked by 2 people

      • @ Oscar

        That one is only to the year 2000 too.

        Obesity has gone up since then, from about 33% on that chart to 40%, if I remember correctly. Never an easier time to stand out, especially in a more feminized world (including the Church) too.

        Liked by 1 person

  7. anonymous_ng says:

    One thing that came to mind about the whole meet cute idea is that it happens in the real world, and since it happens in the real world, it’s more forgiving than online.

    The huge flaw in the OK Stupid data about how women only find the top 20% of men attractive is that the data is from the digital world.

    Online, a woman who isn’t that attractive can convince herself that she has a chance with attractive men even though IRL, they don’t even get the time of day from the guys they’re drooling over online.

    Online, I’m a 3″ photo on her phone right next to some other guy’s 3″ photo. Online, since everyone lies, I’m probably less attractive than my worst photo, and I’m shorter, older, balder, and fatter, and make less money.

    Sure, in real life, I cut a tall, imposing figure, but even an average sized man has the potential for a greater presence in the real world than as a tiny picture on a phone.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Joe2 says:

      Speaking about photos, they can make someone look much better than in real life as well as much worse. Think about police “mug shots” where everyone looks terrible and I’ve seen morgue photos which look better than my driver’s license photo. But professionals can can change all that and make an average looking woman (or man) look much more attractive.

      Photos are not to be trusted. Real life face to face meeting is the way to go.

      Liked by 1 person

      • redpillboomer says:

        “Speaking about photos, they can make someone look much better than in real life as well as much worse. Think about police “mug shots” where everyone looks terrible and I’ve seen morgue photos which look better than my driver’s license photo. But professionals can can change all that and make an average looking woman (or man) look much more attractive. Photos are not to be trusted. Real life face to face meeting is the way to go.”

        Another thing not to be trusted is make-up, or fake-up as some have coined it. I know several women, late thirties into early/mid forties, that look quite good with their make-up on and quite average with it off; like they lose a point or two on the 1-10 scale when they take it off.

        Far worse is the ‘fake-up’ women. I know a couple in their forties, attractive women, but definitely post-wall with fading looks. They do the fake-up thing and they look 25 again. I immediately want to raise the BS flag and say to all the men viewing them on social media, “That isn’t her! It’s an image. I know better. I’ve seen the ‘real’ her!” When all the make-up/fake-up comes off they drop 3-4-5 points on the 1-10 scale. It is ‘false advertising’ any way you cut it. AND, what is so interesting to me is the amount of attention/validation these women get from simps out there on-line, “Oh baby, you’re so beautiful!” and the like. I’m like dudes, do you have any idea she does NOT look like that for real? It’s all fake messaging. She is not the ‘hottie’ you think she is; maybe 25 years ago, but not now.

        Like

      • anonymous_ng says:

        What always surprises me is when women put ugly photos on a dating site, or ones that are out of focus looking like they just rolled out of bed. I’m not saying that everyone needs to pay for a professional photo shoot, but put on some nice clothes, have a friend take the picture in good light.

        We’re going to take the worst picture you post and assume that’s your best look, or at least that’s what you look like most of the time.

        Put in some effort.

        Like

  8. feeriker says:

    Lastmod says (2021-11-22 at 11:54 pm):

    “Gyms are also soul crushing places. I tried going for a stint in the late 1990’s. The “snickers” the laughs and pity looks from hot women, “Oh look, the ugly guy is going to try to look better…” The “trainers” who spend two minutes with you and spend three freaking hours talking to women was not worth the cost.”

    cameron232 says (2021-11-23 at 12:08 am):

    “I agree that gyms suck. One thing if you have room is you can invest in equipment at home. A set of plates, an Olympic bar, a flat bench and a power cage can be purchased. Personal trainers are overrated in my opinion…”

    and Oscar says (2021-11-23 at 12:20 am):

    “I train in my garage.”

    All three of you are right. Gym memberships are a waste of money, the only value of which is their variety of equipment. Even that isn’t of any particular value if your focus is on a specific goal. Gym staffs are even worse than useless; indeed, they often do actual harm with their one-size-fits-all approach to programs — which are motivated by sales and revenue targets rather than what actually benefits each individual client.

    Oscar, I’m going to check out the video link you posted. I’ve cleared some space in my home office that would fit some equipment. Just have to decide which is a priority.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Oscar says:

      “Gym memberships are a waste of money, the only value of which is their variety of equipment.”

      Back when we had a gym membership, the only thing we used it for was the pool. The kids loved the kid area with all the slides, and I used the lap pool for cardio. Plus we got a discount on kids’ swimming lessons.

      I’d much rather lift in my garage.

      Liked by 1 person

  9. Lastmod says:

    Notice Oscar, didn’t break up Scott’s original and revised “Meet Cute” and hair-split like he has with me…..

    That aside. Yes, a man who probably works out probably will have a better chance, but not guaranteed. A 5’6″ man who “has the body” and works out will look more like an angry Leprechaun or someone who overcompensates. A 6’3″ man like myself….. all the gym ever did was make me slimmer…muscle wasn’t built. I have a frame that would have been a distance runner in my prime. I even did the high altitude swim at Boy Scout Camp in 2016….. and trained for it for eight months….. not an ounce of muscle gained. It was a two mile swim at an altitude of 7,000′ (Huntington Lake, Sierra Nevadas, CA). I did it, but I have excellent cardio… even when I was a cigarette smoker.

    The point again, Scott was and is on to something….. Even if you didn’t have a meet cute, you guys did have a date before you married your wife. You did have women flirt, give IOI’s and you all did kiss another girl before your wedding day even if it was your future wife.

    If a man doesn’t have that ever…. and Scott made the point in relation to a “Meet Cute” scenario, probably by a certain age…… if it hasn’t happened, it probably never will. And Scott, not Jason said this: “No amount of Game, going to the gym, or monkeysuiting will ever work.”

    And I agree with that. It’s not spreading misery, its more than likely a truth…. and again, Scott never gave an solution, and admitted he didn’t have the answer. Nor pretended like he did.

    Like

    • Oscar says:

      “A 6’3″ man like myself….. all the gym ever did was make me slimmer… muscle wasn’t built.”

      What exactly did you do at the gym? Were you on a calorie surplus?

      Like

      • Lastmod says:

        Well… my first day, the trainer pointed to the weights and said, “Yeah, find your limit, and work from there”, and then proceeded to talk to girls.

        I asked him for help. “Over there… Use the weights. Find your limit, and go from there.”

        It was so intimidating, I didn’t know what did what and this gym was costing me at the time $175.00 per month.

        So, I used the sculling machine (rowing machine). I ran the treadmill because that was the only thing I could do. I could run for an hour pretty good, despite being a cigarette smoker. I did push ups at home. Didn’t dare ever use the chin up bar at the gym. It was in plain view for every woman and man to see and snicker at you, unless you were already on roids, or were just good looking.

        Why would I need a calorie surplus? I didn’t want to be fat.

        Besides this was well over 25 years ago. Going to a gym now would be 1000X worse at my age. I would be called and viewed as a “creep” by women, and the guys would behave like you, expecting to fully comprehend advanced workouts when I had not set foot in a gym since 1995.

        Like

      • Lastmod says:

        I grew up learning how to swim in the gazillion mountain ponds and lakes in the Adirondacks. I would never use a swimming pool at a gym, or the public ones at the YMCA… too intimidating, and in college we had an awesome, indoor pool and it was open until 1 AM. I always went very late when no one was there.

        Decent swimmer… not great but good endurance….. probably because of growing swimming in open water from the Adirondacks and no one watching me or judging me.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Oscar says:

        “So, I used the sculling machine (rowing machine). I ran the treadmill because that was the only thing I could do.”
        ………
        “Why would I need a calorie surplus? I didn’t want to be fat.”

        So, you did cardio on a calorie deficit. No wonder you lost weight.

        You can’t grow muscle without being on a calorie surplus. Where did you think your body was supposed to obtain the matter to build more muscle?

        If you want to build muscle, you need to do the four major barbell lifts…

        — Squat
        — Deadlift
        — Press
        — Bench press

        Add weight to the bar each workout, and consume a surplus of calories, preferably with a whole lot of protein. And yes, it does work for everyone, even tall, skinny guys.

        Before…

        After…

        Starting Strength: Maybe you should gain weight

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        “— Squat
        — Deadlift
        — Press
        — Bench press”

        The big, compound lifts are the way to go for simplicity and quick, efficient but effective workouts. I’d say you could make it even simpler (3 lifts) : 1 upper body pressing lift (e.g. bench press), 1 upper body pulling lift (e.g. barbell rows or chin ups) and 1 leg lift (squat or deadlift). Trap bar deadlifts are safer and emphasize legs more compared to straight bar and you want big legs if you’re going for aesthetics. I got really strong on straight bar deadlifts (5 plates) without getting thunder thighs.

        If you don’t have a reliable spotter for bench press, you could also do (weighted as you get stronger) dips. If you lean over posture wise (look it up on Youtube) you will load your chest pretty well in addition to your triceps and shoulders.

        3 lifts, 2 or 3 times per week with maybe 5 sets per lift. If you’re not making progress on a lift, you might need more rest days, particularly us old guys.

        Liked by 1 person

    • Oscar says:

      “Notice Oscar, didn’t break up Scott’s original and revised “Meet Cute” and hair-split like he has with me…..”

      Has it ever occurred to you that it’s possible to be ambivalent about a subject? I don’t know anything about “meet cutes”. I never had one, as far as I can tell. My life never looked like a John Hughes movie, like Scott said his life did. I’m not even sure what the actual definition of it is, since the definition seems kind of vague.

      I am not ambivalent about strength training. The benefits of it are both empirical and intuitively obvious.

      Like

  10. Eric Francis Silk says:

    “…a Meet Cute is an act of God, and a man’s ability to detect when it is happening is a miracle”.

    Yeah, it takes a miracle all right…

    Never count on a miracle. The whole point of miracles is that they usually don’t happen.

    Like

  11. Lastmod says:

    Deti replied:

    “So what?

    Jason, you really need to stop caring so much about what other people think. You’re not at the gym to justify your existence to “hot women” or to trainers. You’re there to work out and look and feel better. You paid your money, you have as much right to work out there as anyone else. Who cares what they think? They can stuff their opinions; you’re there to do your workout and get your money’s worth.”

    Easier said than done. I did the right thing. I let my membership lapse after the six month membership. I quit going pretty much after the third month. I didn’t renew, nor did they ask me to.

    I didn’t “feel” better by being there. I felt worse. I remember asking a girl to wipe the equipment down after she was done. “I don’t have to listen to you!” was the response. One of those over muscled roided up trainers saw the whole thing and just said to me, “You could have just wiped it down yourself……. It’s not a big deal.” I had been attending for about three months.

    A week later, I got off the treadmill….. a gal said, “Hey, wipe that down.”

    I replied, “I don’t have to listen to you.”

    She got a trainer / staff member and I was “asked to leave” and to “not come back until I learned to follow the rules and proper etiquette of a gym.”

    I never came back. 🙂

    Liked by 2 people

    • Oscar says:

      “Easier said than done.”

      So is everything that’s worth doing.

      Like

    • feeriker says:

      I believe your anecdote. That’s typical behavior of both staff trainers and the “gym rat” crowd. Although that’s not one of the reasons why I let my membership lapse, it certainly didn’t motivate me to renew.

      Liked by 1 person

  12. Oscar says:

    As promised, here’s my gym.

    Pretty sparse, right? I assure you, that’s pretty much all you need. I did make a sled out of lumber left over from DIY projects, and I have an old tractor tire a farmer friend of mine gave me, but those things are extra.

    Liked by 2 people

    • thedeti says:

      I wish my garage looked that good.

      Liked by 1 person

    • cameron232 says:

      @Oscar,

      I bought these:

      https://valorfitness.com/collections/bench-squat-stands/products/bd-9-independent-power-squat-stands

      I put the bar on top for chin ups (I’m not real tall). I assume you bench off those adjustable arms like I do. The problem with what I bought is those arms aren’t long enough to reliably catch the weight if I fail on the squat. I low bar squat (based on my build) so I can’t really dump the weight safely. I built a pair of low sawhorses but broke them when I failed on a heavy set and it was nearly a disaster.

      What brand is that? Nice and simple and the arms look long enough to be safe for squatting.

      Like

      • Oscar says:

        @ Cameron

        I bought my equipment from Rogue Fitness.

        https://www.roguefitness.com/sml-2-rogue-90-monster-lite-squat-stand

        You’re in Florida, so you might want to go with Again Faster Equipment. They’re in Jacksonville. Rogue is in Ohio.

        https://www.againfaster.com/collections/squat-stands-racks

        I don’t bench without safety arms. That’s the only strength training exercise that can kill you. Can you imagine me dropping a bar on my throat, alone in my garage, early in the morning, while my family is all asleep?

        No thanks!

        Liked by 2 people

      • cameron232 says:

        Oscar, been there done that. I tried to rack the weight on those arms by lifting a failed rep up my torso and across my face and ended up with 225 (the most I ever attempted for reps) on my throat. I screamed like a little b!tch for help and no one heard me. I managed to get if off. Don’t do that. I have become pretty adept at getting out from under a failed rep that ends up on your chest. Yeah, I know bad idea.

        Also don’t bench with a wide grip. I popped my pec tendon off the bone.

        Liked by 1 person

  13. Lastmod says:

    You can’t grow muscle without being on a calorie surplus. Where did you think your body was supposed to obtain the matter to build more muscle?

    If you want to build muscle, you need to do the four major barbell lifts…

    — Squat
    — Deadlift
    — Press
    — Bench press

    Little late for that now. Thank you for telling me after it not being important. Typical. I have no idea what the above terms mean. I know it involves weights there are a gazillion styles and sizes and combinations. I am also convinced you all tell men this stuff AFTER its too late to do anything. Yeah, go do what Osacr said, attract a nineteen year old, ghet married have kids….oh, I’ll be sixty by then “plenty of time…did you know Adam in the Bible lived to be 956, why can’t you?”

    Where did I think the body was supposed to build more matter? I thought the muscle there would grow, get denser……work the muscles…stuff like that, You’re all geniuses here, I know, I “should have known”

    None of this matters now. If it ever did. Baseball pitchers work out and gun mizzle strikes down the line and most are not muscled up adonis’s nor are golfers. I don’t every manget what comes naturally to Osacr, and all fo yoi in here. Genetrics are a b*tch

    Like

    • Oscar says:

      “Little late for that now. Thank you for telling me after it not being important.”

      1) You could have asked earlier.
      2) The health benefits of strength training are more important to you now, than ever. You’re now at the age when your body naturally starts to lose muscle mass and bone density. The only way to counter that natural process is strength training. But, let me guess, you’re still not going to do it, right?

      “I have no idea what the above terms mean.”

      Then, look them up. You have more information available at your fingertips than all of humanity has ever had. Besides, Cameron already gave you the answer.

      If you’re not even willing to do a quick internet search to help yourself, then why are you blaming others for your unwillingness?

      “I am also convinced you all tell men this stuff AFTER its too late to do anything.”

      People have been advising you to lift weights at least since Dalrock’s blog, so at the very least since 2012, when I first found it. Your standard response was some variation of “I already tried that. It didn’t work.”

      Now, the truth comes out that you never actually tried it. Which means you lied. Again.

      And, by the way, Deep Strength gave you all this information on his blog. He actually went through the process, because he was underweight. Did you take his advice? Of course not.

      How many people gave you good advice even earlier in life that you refused to take? And, whose fault is it that you keep rejecting good advice when people give it to you?

      “Where did I think the body was supposed to build more matter? I thought the muscle there would grow, get denser……work the muscles…stuff like that, You’re all geniuses here, I know, I “should have known”.”

      How do you think I learned that information? Do you think I was born knowing that? Obviously, I had to read about it, just like everyone else. You could have done that too, but you chose not to. So, whose fault is it that you chose not to?

      “Baseball pitchers work out and gun mizzle strikes down the line and most are not muscled up adonis’s nor are golfers.”

      Nobody said anyone had to be a “muscled up adonis” [sic.]. Did you not read what I wrote above?

      “I don’t every manget what comes naturally to Osacr, and all fo yoi in here.”

      What does any of that gibberish even mean?

      “Genetrics are a b*tch”

      You know what’s worse? An obstinate unwillingness to take good advice, coupled with blaming the people who gave you good advice.

      Like

      • cameron232 says:

        The gibberish is probably him typing on the smart phone. Happens to me all the time LoL.

        You don’t need to be in a calorie surplus to gain muscle. Yes, I know “thermodynamics” but the mechanisms for fat storage and muscle building, while both influenced by insulin response, are distinct mechanisms. Specifically, if you have relatively high body fat (like me right now) you can gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. I agree that if you’re a skinny guy you want to eat a calorie surplus (clean bulk).

        I don’t think the weightlifting approach does a great deal for a 51 year old man. The older men who I’ve seen get married usually have the stable, established older guy thing going on. I know one older guy (a former drug addict and bald) who got a (former drug addict single mom with some tattoos) much younger wife. She has been a good wife as far as I can tell, giving him 5 children of his own, having sex with him, she at least sincerely tries to submit as a Godly wife.

        I know we will go down this road again with what the manosphere has said about this Jason, but it is entirely up to a man if he wants to take a chance on a single mom with tats, etc. This couple met in Narcotics Anonymous. She has become a sincere (as far as I can tell) Christian. No, Jason, I will not call him a bluepill betacuck for marrying her.
        ably the smart phone.

        Like

      • Oscar says:

        “You don’t need to be in a calorie surplus to gain muscle.”

        You do if you’re skinny.

        “Specifically, if you have relatively high body fat (like me right now) you can gain muscle and lose fat at the same time.”

        Which is not Jason’s case.

        “I agree that if you’re a skinny guy you want to eat a calorie surplus (clean bulk).”

        Which is Jason’s case. If Jason wants to gain muscle, he needs to be on a calorie surplus. That was doubly true when he was young.

        “I don’t think the weightlifting approach does a great deal for a 51 year old man.”

        Probably should’ve taken good advice when he received it years ago, huh? Instead, he lied and said he’d already tried it, and it didn’t work.

        Why does Jason’s lying habit matter? Many reasons. One is that the truth is how we solve problems. In order to solve a problem, you have to…

        1) Honestly admit you have a problem
        2) Honestly identify the problem
        3) Honestly come up with possible solutions to the problem
        4) Honestly implement the possible solutions
        5) Honestly evaluate the results of the possible solutions
        6) Honestly repeat as needed

        Jason has claimed he implemented the possible solution of strength training, but in reality, he never did. You can’t solve problems that way.

        Like

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Cameron –

        “I don’t think the weightlifting approach does a great deal for a 51 year old man.”

        This is not true. It’s more important for a whole host of testosterone related reasons for middle aged men to strength train. Along with being careful about the foods you eat, this is how men fight the effects of declining testosterone levels through middle age, which means that weightlifting has benefits outside of just looking good naked … although Mrs. Apostle does not mind that aspect of it.

        Liked by 2 people

      • cameron232 says:

        Hi RPA,

        I didn’t write very carefully, sorry. I meant that for a 51 year old man looking for a wife, I wouldn’t think that weightlifting would be a big part of the equation. It seems like women open to marrying a 51 year old man would be looking for other things. But I can’t say since I’ve been “off the market” since I was a teenager.

        I agree that weightlifting has a lot of benefits. My wife has noticed that I don’t seem to get sick nearly as often once I started lifting.

        BTW, I have a 30 year old female friend at work (she is EXTREMELY cute and nice). One of her close friends (who is about the same age – I don’t know how attractive the friend is) is married to a 60 year old man. I don’t believe he’s rich or incredibly good looking either. Strange things can happen.

        Like

  14. Lastmod says:

    Years decades ago….”join a gym, they will help you and set you up on a plan”
    Of course they will.

    DS only said, “I will not help anyone else until you send me how much you can bench or your reps, your mission and goal(s) in life and and your spiritual side / walk with Jesus”, which, at the time, I was doing what I was supposed to be doing.

    Real men bench and do reps. Sure they do.

    I thought I was strength training. I really did. I did swim frequently enough. I backpack. Hauled a sixty-five pound pack for 135 miles. Did Whitney with a 20 pound pack, and that was up…way up!

    Hiked Kings Canyon with a loaded down backpack. Canoeing as a teen frequently and even white water on the north Hudson with dad back in the 1980’s. Boy Scouts as a Scoutmaster for ten years, constant backpacking, carrying…up Madera Peak, up the Dardanelles in the Carson-Iceberg wilderness area. 47 miles on the San Jocquine River. Carrying a pack isn’t strength training? Or is it only when you do it?

    Doesn’t matter at this point. Men, make sure your boys are in the gym daily from 10 onwards…or they’ll be like me 😉

    Liked by 1 person

    • Oscar says:

      “DS only said, “I will not help anyone else until you send me how much you can bench or your reps, your mission and goal(s) in life and and your spiritual side / walk with Jesus”, which, at the time, I was doing what I was supposed to be doing……

      You’re lying again, Jason. That is not everything DS said. Not even close. Here’s just one example.

      Christianity and Masculinity: Practical Ways to Improve Your Attractiveness and Desirability for a Christian Spouse (2014-01-07)

      Whose fault is it that you rejected that advice?

      “Carrying a pack isn’t strength training?”

      No.

      “Or is it only when you do it?”

      No. The limiting factor of carrying a 45 lb. pack isn’t strength. It’s endurance and/or stamina. Therefore, you’re not training strength.

      The limiting factor of doing 3 sets of 5 squats is strength. Therefore, when you squat with heavy weights, you’re training strength.

      Again, you rejected good advice. Now you’re blaming the people whose advice you rejected, and lying about them by claiming they never gave you the advice you rejected. But, whose fault is it that you rejected their good advice?

      Like

      • cameron232 says:

        All true, not nitpicking. Low rep sets like 3×5 tend to maximize strength gains not hypertrophy. Higher rep sets 6-20 (people debate the number) are better for hypertrophy. Deep Strength posted something on research showing people can gain strength (muscle?) with as much as 30 rep sets.

        You’re not wrong, just some additional food for thought.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        Low rep sets very hard on the nervous system – this sort of fatigue tends to set in before msucle fatigue. All sorts of ideas about when you recruit slow twitch vs. fast twitch – I don’t fully understand it all.

        Like

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        “All sorts of ideas about when you recruit slow twitch vs. fast twitch…”

        My college strength and conditioning coach looked at current research on the nerves and muscle fiber and went with the following working hypothesis. If you are engaging your nervous system to move a mass quickly, you are engaging more fast twitch fibers than slow twitch. How fast the mass actually moved, which allowed for lifting weights right at the limit of your capacity, was less important than how fast you were telling your nervous system to move it. My body seemed to agree with his tactics, and my training times in the sprints went down significantly. (1x-2x per month we used to run a couple dozen 100 and 200 meter sprints, with a little rest between each run, to build up for 5k races.) He is not working with his second NHL franchise so it seems at least some of his research paid off.

        Like

      • Jack says:

        “If you are engaging your nervous system to move a mass quickly, you are engaging more fast twitch fibers than slow twitch. How fast the mass actually moved, which allowed for lifting weights right at the limit of your capacity, was less important than how fast you were telling your nervous system to move it.”

        Is this the same difference as doing a repetitive action with or without a conscientious willful effort? That is, “engaging the nervous system” = “conscientious willful effort”.

        Like

  15. Lastmod says:

    Okay….back to Meet Cute……I don’t think anyone would deny the benefits of exercise or activity at any age…..Meet Cute from when Scott made his first video…to now…it seems to now have changed. Before it was some loosely connected ideas and whatnots…now its from god……don’t see that connection. Anyway…..you’ll prove me wrong. 🙂

    Have a good Thanksgiving. Having a palm tree one. Just staying home. Not much really planned. Same for Christmas. I don’t volunteer anymore, doesn’t do anything or really help anybody.

    England in about six months, maybe a camping trip in late summer. 2022 is pretty much set.

    Liked by 1 person

  16. Lastmod says:

    Just watched a vid of a guy similar build to me…….after six years of lifting 5-6 days a week, just starting to get muscles. “just go to the gym bro” and you guys make it sound like a few months or a year and how he lost it quick when he stopped lifting. Genetics is a b*tcj. Be thankful you were born with the right ones. God loves some more than others…………………..

    lol

    Like

    • cameron232 says:

      I never got very muscular I just avoided looking skinny and weak since I’m small boned. I suppose you could view it as avoiding things that women select AGAINST e.g. looking skinny and weak. Of course, it can’t matter to all women because I was very skinny when my wife picked me.

      Being average height actually helped I suppose. I suspect it IS hard for a tall (6’3”) ectomorph like yourself – you’d have to put on a lot of muscle to not look tall and skinny.

      What I see among some of the young males here is they look very weak from lack of physical activity (video games all day). Rather than have them set out to be a mass monster, I can see having the modest goal of them getting to a reasonably healthy looking physique. I think women select even more brutally AGAINST some traits (e.g. looking weak) than then do FOR the opposite trait (looking muscular).

      I can’t imagine any more than 30 – 60 minutes, 2 to 3 times a week working out. Life’s to short unless you really enjoy the boring repetition.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Oscar says:

      Okay. Post the video.

      Like

    • Red Pill Apostle says:

      Every man, regardless of the type of skeletal structure he has, can become more muscular by lifting weights. Not every man can be Mr. Olympia or have a build like Herschel Walker. (His discipline and work ethic are off the charts, but he started as a fat kid so remember that when you contemplate what he looks like in his 50s.) But if a man strength trains correctly and has good nutrition, he will become more muscular. By training correctly, I mean pushing muscle groups to failure. Pushing your body to that limit is what it takes to make gains.

      Personally, I’d love to be 6’3″. There are many advantages that come with being that height.

      Like

      • Lastmod says:

        No advantages. None. Pushing your body to the limits of failure just to get muscles is a bit extreme. Also probably not good for you…….. tendons snapping, snapped hamstrings….. other damage… “all in the name of looking good for women, because that is what they want.”

        My dad was a carpenter. Swung a hammer most of his adult life, carried lumber, grew up on a farm. Bailed hay…. He was taller than me in his prime (6’6″)…….. definitely had more muscle than me, for sure…. He grew up on a farm, and did four years in the USAF. Back then, the military would actually kick you out for flunking BT, even in the USAF. He was a carpenter, but he didn’t belong to the gym or live to stay healthy… (He was 86 when died). He also didn’t have “time” to lift five / six days a week…. He was busy being a father, a good dad, and husband.

        Who knows. If I, even as a young man, would have to go to the gym most of the week for a few hours, “so my wife will find me hot and not leave me……. I mean, to stay healthy and have a long life”

        I doubt I would have done this just for female attention, and she’ll divorce / cheat / usurp my authority anyway?????

        You can have it.

        Like

      • Oscar says:

        “No advantages. None.”

        Tell that to the short guys on your incel forums.

        “Pushing your body to the limits of failure just to get muscles is a bit extreme. Also probably not good for you…….. tendons snapping, snapped hamstrings….. other damage…”

        Who says you have to do all that? I’ve never snapped tendons, or hamstrings lifting weights.

        ”…all in the name of looking good for women, because that is what they want.”

        Nope. All in the name of strength, health, and longevity. I’m 46, and I have a 3-month-old baby girl. I’d like to live long enough to meet all my grandchildren, and hopefully be healthy enough to still play with them. That is my primary motivation. Looking better than I would otherwise is a side benefit.

        “My dad was a carpenter. Swung a hammer most of his adult life, carried lumber, grew up on a farm. Bailed hay…. He was taller than me in his prime (6’6″)…….. He had more muscle definition than me for sure….”

        Once again, the truth comes out. First, you whined that a man of your height, and genetics can’t build muscle. Now, you admit that a man even taller than you, from whom your genetics derive, built more muscle than you.

        See? It’s not genetics. You’re just unwilling to do the work. Thus…

        “You can have it.”

        Thanks for proving another one of my points. Like I said above, some men will use any excuse to not do the work.

        Like

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        “No advantages. None. Pushing your body to the limits of failure just to get muscles is a bit extreme. Also probably not good for you…….. tendons snapping, snapped hamstrings….. other damage…”

        I’m 5’9″. At 6’3″ the athletic advantages alone would have been huge for me. At my height it is hard to appear imposing on anyone physically. At 6’3″ a certain level of being physically imposing is basically assumed until that assumption is proven faulty. If I were the weak minded ‘woke’ type, I would say that you have “height privilege” and because of your genetically derived “height privilege”, you don’t even know all the advantages you have. “Height privilege!” You have it. I am not afraid to say it. 🙂

        As far as lifting weights to muscle failure goes, that is the way to get in better shape. How do muscles every get bigger/faster/stronger if not by pushing previous limits? Each time I go to the gym with a mindset of pushing limits, which in my early to mid 40s is only once or twice a week, I am pushing for muscle failure in a certain amount of repetitions. If I do more reps than my target, my weight is too light. If I don’t do as many repetitions, the weight was too heavy so I’ll take some weight off the bar and do reps until I can’t any more. This is how I got stronger when I was younger and how I’m increasing my strength now as a middle aged man. The benefit of working to failure is that my bones, ligaments and tendons all get stronger to support the additional muscle strength, so when strength training is done correctly the whole musculoskeletal system benefits. It’s almost as if God knew what he was doing when He made us.

        “I doubt I would have done this just for female attention, and she’ll divorce / cheat / usurp my authority anyway?????

        You can have it.”

        Here’s the fun part of it all. I loved sports and being active. I have always worked on fitness for myself and I have enjoyed the benefits I get from it. While I don’t compete anymore, I still reap the benefits. Hike a mountain trail down a deep ravine to get to a prime trout stream? Not a problem. Toss my 85 pound son in the air because he watched me toss his 55 pound little brother in the air? I’m not gonna lie, that one is harder because that’s about half my body weight, but I can still do it and enjoy the peals of laughter I get for my effort.

        As far as usurping authority … well, that’s Genesis 3:16 playing out in real life. But when a husband does handle his wife and handles her well, it gets pretty good. The other 2 you just buy her a cat and wish her well in her old age.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Lastmod says:

        “…you admit that a man even taller than you, from whom your genetics derive, built more muscle than you.”

        Yeah, he lifted heavy thing for a living, worked in freezing cold weather, swung a hammer. Survived air raids from German dive-bombers as boy…….. He was out walking through wet concrete….. daily… for decades….. and he had some muscle definition, but he was far from some ripped guy. A life like that will give a man some muscular definition, and even in older age…. but after he retired it was gone. So it is genetic. AS is height, as looks, as intelligence………. Most men are doomed.

        Yes, you guys are going to be exception when it comes to looking good at 80 because you have muscle definition and work out. I know….

        And RPA, “At 6’3″, a certain level of being physically imposing…”

        Yeah…. OKAY…….. You would know!

        Like

      • locustsplease says:

        In the winter, I hit the gym almost every day during the week. I also don’t work much and I plan on taking 2 months off. In the summer, I run on most of my days off or half days, and I do hard manual labor for a living. I don’t push myself super hard. I cannot afford an injury and I am 6’3″. I had high blood pressure at 26, sitting around not doing much other than a non manual job. Now that’s long gone. Doctors say it’s a little low sometimes, which was really nice to hear.

        From my experience, the gym is only personal pressure. I’ve rarely encountered goofy behavior and typically it’s from women doing squats and spreading their asses, wearing no clothes, like strippers, but way too close.

        Like

      • Oscar says:

        “Yeah, he lifted heavy things for a living…”

        See how you keep proving yourself a liar? You knew that building muscle requires lifting heavy things, but earlier, you said you didn’t know that.

        “Yes, you guys are going to be exception when it comes to looking good at 80 because you have muscle definition and work out. I know….”

        And, you just lied again. No one said anything about “looking good at 80”. Can you write even one comment without lying?

        Like

  17. Joe2 says:

    “It’s raw, visceral attraction. Most Meet Cutes don’t end up in marriage, and Scott himself will tell you that, he made that clear in his first video. He also made it very understood that men kind-of-need-this-to-happen in their lives at some point once or many times or somehow the trajectory is off and you will be stunted in this area…… or functioning at a disadvantage in the future as you mature. In his video, the revised one… he also made quite clear that if a man doesn’t have this, or something like this in his socio-sexual-development as a teen into a young man…. at some point, no amount of Game, going-to-the-gym is going to help you.”

    My understanding of Scott’s videos is that he is addressing the normal socio-sexual development from a psychologist’s point of view. As a child grows (boy or girl), the child is expected to develop normal markers of growth such a learning to walk, speak, read, write, puberty, interest in the opposite sex, etc. Along the path of maturity, there is an age appropriate normal socio-sexual development.

    Somewhere in the process, something goes astray and a young man doesn’t experience a Meet Cute or something similar. If he experiences it say at age 30 (which is very unlikely), he will be 10 or more years behind his peers who experienced it a much younger age, say at 16. There is no way he is going to catch up (by working out), because he missed out on 10+ years of normal experience with women and is stunted.

    I think that’s the point Scott was trying to get across.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Oscar says:

      “Somewhere in the process, something goes astray and a young man doesn’t experience a Meet Cute or something similar. If he experiences it say at age 30 (which is very unlikely) he will be 10 or more years behind his peers who experienced it a much younger age, say at 16. There is no way he is going to catch up (by working out) because he missed out on 10+ years of normal experience with women and is stunted.”

      I’m not sure that I ever experienced a “meet cute”. Then again, the definition of a “meet cute” seems so nebulous that I’m not entirely sure what a “meet cute” really is.

      Like

      • Lastmod says:

        Watch Scott’s video. Pretty clear as day there. The problem and reason why most of you don’t get it, or are making it into something it isn’t, is because you cannot understand on any level why he made it, why he said the things he did, and took such a radical approach and made it pretty simple so that I could grasp it…………… Maybe that’s why Scott is probably good in his field and what he does.

        I also know that his coda… the flipside people who don’t have this or these experiences understand it as well, is because in a classic Meet Cute a la John Hughes 1980’s movie, the loser usually has to accept his place and be happy for everyone else. You guys who “never lose” and stick your noses up at guys like me to this day will never once admit you can’t grasp something.

        You could easily do so, if you dropped your Egos down a notch or two… and that never happens with guys like you….. and especially Christians.

        That is why Scott’s take on this HAS an impact. He just gets it. Only he could have made this, or brought this up. If I did, it wouldn’t have an impact.

        I would have been called bitter / giving up / loser / self loathing…

        Deep down inside, you still can’t believe Scott could or would make a video like this.

        Like

      • Jack says:

        Oscar wrote,

        “I’m not sure that I ever experienced a “meet cute”. Then again, the definition of a “meet cute” seems so nebulous that I’m not entirely sure what a “meet cute” really is.”

        Scott and I have covered the Meet Cute extensively since February 2020, and yet readers still don’t “get it”. I don’t know what more I can do to make it evident.

        Maybe you need to see it happen to “get it.” Take a look at this post. There are a couple gif images that display a woman innocently giving IOIs, which constitutes a Meet Cute. The problem is that most men don’t notice it, and don’t follow through. Men need to learn how to “see” things like this. I believe most women are already well aware of it. Women think they are being too obvious, but it’s barely detected by most men.

        Like

      • anonymous_ng says:

        Based on Jack’s post, I went back and watched Scott’s video again, and his story parts ways with what is being purported to equal meet cute (MC).

        — Can’t happen online, or when you see someone across a bar, or when you’re set up on a date by a friend? (might have been in a previous article) Wrong. Scott and his wife met online. They each had spent significant time looking at each other’s profiles before he finally reached out to her. AKA, they were each significantly attracted one to the other before they ever met.
        — They talked for hours on the phone before meeting in person, which again throws a wrench into the idea that it’s some kind of love at first sight experience.
        — The MC part was when they met for the first time in person.
        — Toward the end of the video where Scott talks about the necessity of something like a Meet Cute to happen, or else the socio-sexual development is thrown off, he makes a claim that the trajectory is complicated and there are many ways that one can go astray etc. I’m not the expert, he is, and he didn’t expound on things, but that sounds far too much like chiropractors who make the assertion that every slip and fall that happened during your life prior to you arriving in their office has put your spine out of alignment and only they have the solution to fix you. I’m not sure that normal adult development is as fragile as Scott’s video suggests, but I have no basis for that opinion except life.
        — Scott doesn’t find value in game for the man who missed out on that normal development etc. I disagree, depending on what is meant by game.
        — Here’s my three cents on pickup (game) and it’s value for men. The foundation of it all is the idea that social interactions generally proceed according to a set of discoverable rules or principles. Then the practice of pickup is to take the principles and apply them in the real world repeatedly until they are understood in practice, and internalized. IMO, the rest is all just fluffery.
        — Then again, since there is no governing body of who maintains the definition of game, it means whatever someone wants it to mean. Based on my experiences as a 40 year old man, I recommend learning some of what’s bandied about in the pickup world, but using the brains that God gave you to look to the principles and ignore the idiocy.
        — BE ALPHA BRO!!!! How about have some confidence, don’t be afraid to have a differing opinion than a woman, but there is no need to strut around trying to be king of the walk.
        — Silly pickup lines? They’re for insecure newbs who can’t imagine that “Hi” actually works really well.
        — PEACOCKING!!! Sure, that will get you attention, and it might even get some women approaching you, but you might as well put on a monkey suit, and you’re using it to avoid risking rejection of the real you.
        — The infamous neg. Forget you ever heard about it. You aren’t going to meet the kind of woman for which it was intended.

        Anyway, those are some thoughts. Back to studying my verbs.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Jack says:

        anonymous_ng,

        I am pleased that you are offering some critical feedback to the main ideas in the posts!

        “Based on Jack’s post, I went back and watched Scott’s video again, and his story parts ways with what is being purported to equal a Meet Cute (MC).”

        It is to be expected. All of my writings about the Meet Cute are based on what Scott, RedPillBoomer, and others have said, and my own experiences and conjectures. It is difficult to describe in concrete terms, because the Meet Cute phenomenon is a phenomenon — an impressive or extraordinary event that is observable but not easily explained. I’m doing my best to explain it in qualitative terms.

        I believe it is highly unlikely for a Meet Cute to happen online these days. I mentioned this in passing in the original post, but it really needs to be expanded. I wrote this because, usually, several of the identifying traits of a Meet Cute are missing, partly due to the general nature of people who go looking for love online (not so spontaneously innocent and full of expectations), and partly because of the way online dating has become rather transactional. IOW, it lacks a wider social context, it erodes male authority, and it works strongly in favor of the female. Also, women cannot express IOIs (other than direct messaging, which they won’t do), and this is one of the key features of a Meet Cute.

        In my experience, most online dating apps are more conducive for hooking up, but not for creating Meet Cute scenarios nor LTRs. That is not to say that it can never happen. I also met my own wife online, but I had to pick through a lot of women to find one or two that were interested in marriage and not just sex. To be honest, I didn’t know which of the two my wife was until I had known her for about a month. This was a couple years before I found the Red Pill, so I didn’t really know what I was doing at that time. I just knew I wanted to find a wife.

        Of course there are always exceptions. Bumble requires the woman to send the first message, which is an IOI, but this also filters out shy, innocent types of women. Even so, I think this arrangement is “right” within the context of online dating, and DS said so too.

        I could also expand the case study of Scott and Mychael. They met online back in 2006, which was long before online dating degenerated into the Meat Market that it is today. Even so, we see some elements that I’ve put forth for what constitutes a Meet Cute. From what Scott said in his second Meet Cute video, Mychael was too shy to initiate contact with Scott (a trait I described as “innocence”). He caught Mychael looking at his profile many times (one of the features of the app). That’s a subtle IOI. Scott responded to her by messaging her, thereby initiating a Feedback loop, another characteristic of a Meet Cute. We don’t know how many other people were interacting with either Scott or Mychael in the same way, so it’s difficult to say how unique that was. What made it a unique Meet Cute story was how things took off after they met.

        Again, the Meet Cute is a phenomenon — something that happens, but no one can really predict it, nor explain why or how it happens to certain people at certain times. That’s why I said it is something of a miracle or an act of God. The best thing that men can do is to be aware of it, and perhaps hope that it could happen to one’s self. I still don’t know… maybe that would detract from the innocent spontaneity of it.

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        “…don’t be afraid to have a differing opinion than a woman…”

        Yes, and you can do this without being a condescending jerk.

        I am talking a lot with a very attractive 30 year old woman, who was recently married. For some reason she is very comfortable around me and tells me a lot. When she was dating, she didn’t like a lot of guys and didn’t go for a second date with them because they just claimed to be into whatever she was into. This was clearly an unattractive trait to her. She also didn’t go on a 2nd date with a lawyer who was condescending to her, telling her that “This is the only job you could get”. (She’s an engineer.)

        The girl is extremely pretty, she’s very nice and she likes to bake/cook for her new husband. She loves Thanksgiving and she will be in the kitchen with her cooking apron and bringing a turkey to the table for him. No, she’s not a Christian.

        The guy she married (1 year younger than her) is an up and coming program manager in the company. He is average looking, average height, a little bit chubby, nothing wrong with him, but IOW not some alpha stud.

        So there’s hope young men.

        Like

      • anonymous_ng says:

        Jack, you might be right that Bumble/Tinder/etc are fundamentally different from Match/OKCupid and their ilk.

        I will agree with you that the MC is a phenomenon and the best we can do is describe it in vague terms.

        Also, I think that even the Pretty in Pink Meet Cute is unlikely these days because people are so much less social. In high school, even the nerds sometimes got invited to parties, or when they went off to college, or when they got a job at a pizza joint, they’d get invited to a party with everyone at work, and at one of those parties the conditions were present for a Meet Cute to happen with a friend of a friend, etc.

        Now, everyone is playing video games online, watching TikTok, streaming on Twitch, etc.

        My son gets plenty of attention, even though he isn’t quite 6′ tall and is a red-head, but none of the women he runs into are the marrying kind. They want to smash that night, and most have double-digit counts of sexual partners.

        Like

  18. redpillboomer says:

    “Somewhere in the process, something goes astray and a young man doesn’t experience a Meet Cute or something similar. If he experiences it, say at age 30 (which is very unlikely), he will be 10 or more years behind his peers who experienced it a much younger age, say at 16. There is no way he is going to catch up (by working out), because he missed out on 10+ years of normal experience with women and is stunted.”

    I experienced my Meet Cute at 30 as I described in my post above; however, it was proceeded by two others, one at 16 and the second one at 25. The first one, at 16, I was still young and immature and I didn’t know how to handle it, i.e. make it progress to intercourse, so it was a lesson learned. BTW, in looking back now, all of my teen experiences were lessons learned. They weren’t ‘complete failures,’ i.e. no interaction at all with the girl, but were incomplete, if you count f’ing as complete. In other words, I didn’t understand at the time how to ‘close the deal.’ It was more like, girl #1 kiss, girl #2 feel up, etc. And, even if I had ‘gone all the way,’ I don’t think it would have made all that much difference; maybe even thrown my development with the opposite sex off a bit. By that I mean, I was no Chad, so none of it occurred as ‘easy.’ In other words, I had to ‘sweat out’ each stage of my progress, i.e. kissing a girl, fondling a girl through her clothing, removing pieces of clothing, etc. It all seemed like a laborious relationship school of one-step-at-a-time that I was in.

    The one at 25 was different. That was definitely a Meet Cute that progressed through the initial male-female relational stages — kissing, fondling, but STOPPED at going any further because of my spirituality. In other words, I went into an MMP mode from the SMP mode of thinking, i.e. thinking of marrying this girl instead of just having sex with her. Of course, that pretty much ended it right there. I did an LTR in my mind with her (long distance for four years); she was the 20 year old churchian who four years later, then 24, was the one who dumped me, in part I believe because I wouldn’t go pseudo-Chad with her. Not that I was a Chad, but that apparently was what she was used to. Also, I believe my focus of spirituality turned her off. (I wrote about this in earlier posts.)

    The Meet Cute at 30, even though ‘late’ by what you said (ten years late), I think was God honoring me (maybe blessing me is the better word), for having NOT turned the 24 year old ‘Meet Cute’ into a bedroom conquest. I don’t know, but it’s always seemed that way to me. God rewarded me with a ‘late’ Meet Cute because I DIDN’T follow the secular views and had sex with the 24 year old. Hmm, that might be a good topic for inquiry/conversation, following God’s ways in having sex instead of the world’s ways. IDK, food for thought.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Lastmod says:

      You still had plenty of experience with women. What Scott, myself, and Joe here are talking about is if you DON’T have this……… the “normal” sexual conquests, the normal dating life, the normal amount of sex partners before finding God, getting “holy’ with and getting all ‘holy’ with everyone else…… A man who doesn’t have that… by 30… yeah, it’s over. The normal dates, the clumsy foreplay… stuff like that.

      I, the “miserable” one here, evidently even gave it five more years to age 35 or so…… Who knows….?

      Okay… again….. I agree that being fit is a good thing…. but that wasn’t the point of the Meet Cute thing. God didn’t say, “Thou wilt go to the gym”, nor did Scott say, “In order to get a Meet Cute, you must do this.”

      I say the plain truth, and baseline. Most men are not welcome in a gym.

      Like

      • Oscar says:

        “God didn’t say, “Thou wilt go to the gym.”

        Proverbs 20:29
        The glory of young men is their strength,
        And the splendor of old men is their wisdom.

        “I say the plain truth, and baseline. Most men are not welcome in a gym.”

        Who said you have to train at a gym?

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        My career mentor was a virgin until he married at 37. Finest man I’ve ever known.

        Like

      • Lastmod says:

        And…… where did God say, “Thou wilt go to a gym”? When did Jesus say to the 12, “You know, we need to work out so the ladies will find us attractive.”

        Like

      • Lastmod says:

        Cameron: Oulier, Not the norm.

        Liked by 1 person

      • ramman3000 says:

        “And…… where did God say, “Thou wilt go to a gym”? When did Jesus say to the 12, “You know, we need to work out so the ladies will find us attractive”?”

        Right. When Jesus didn’t say, “Thou shalt go to the gym”, marriages were all arranged. “Meet Cute” is not a biblical concept, so why should I accept this framing?

        Liked by 2 people

      • Jack says:

        “Meet Cute” is not a biblical concept, so why should I accept this framing?”

        I don’t know… Maybe because Meet Cute is more Biblical than anything else being offered right now. It’s a step in the right direction. Unless you prefer arranged marriages, or polygamy, or some other Biblical concepts like that, of course.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        Hi Derek,

        I agree with you but we don’t live in a society that does the arranged marriage thing. If you can find a community like that then that’s great. For most men, I think it is important to look for signs that the woman is interested in you (whether or not it’s a “meet cute”) vice pursuing women. I realize this means that men who never get an “IOI” might never marry.

        Women’s attraction is more fickle than ours and they are more likely to just want to “get into a relationship/get married”, and therefore, settle hard to someone they’re minimally attracted to. By contrast our (men’s) attraction is more “caveman” and mostly consists of “Woman pretty! Woman nice to me! Make Mongo happy!!!”

        Sometimes I think that we (being a bunch of engineers, professors, nerds, etc.) overanalyze things too much here. It’s really pretty simple.

        Like

      • anonymous_ng says:

        @cameron232,

        “I agree with you, but we don’t live in a society that does the arranged marriage thing. If you can find a community like that then that’s great. For most men, I think it is important to look for signs that the woman is interested in you (whether or not it’s a “Meet Cute”) vice pursuing women. I realize this means that men who never get an “IOI” might never marry.”

        This comment triggered some thoughts. You know what’s also missing these days? Help from any quarter.

        My uncle (mother’s youngest brother) is ten years my senior, and shy and nerdy and quiet as they come, but he had moved back to a very small town, and my aunt (his sister) introduced him to a young German woman at her workplace. They married, and have been together ever since.

        I’ve been divorced for 12 years. In that time, I’ve had exactly ONE person even mention anything in passing about introducing me to a friend of theirs. ONE.

        Maybe not arranged marriages, but for heaven’s sake people, make friends with younger people around you, and introduce them to one another in a casual setting versus setting them up on dates.

        Online dating has risen because people are about one tenth as social as they were in the ’70s. My parents used to get together with friends to drink and play cards, and us kids ran around outside and played hide and seek, and prank called people on the phone.

        I don’t sense that is happening anymore.

        Just a thought.

        Liked by 3 people

      • redpillboomer says:

        “Meet Cute” is not a biblical concept, so why should I accept this framing?”

        How about the Song of Solomon? Seems like Meet Cute framing to me. From what I understand, SoS is a teenager’s love, or what we in modern times call teenagers. The Shulamite was what, 13 or 14; no older than 15 or 16 at the very oldest. Back then, I believe the minute a female started menstruation it was her ‘time for love,’ or something or other as the Bible puts it. She was ready for sex, and therefore ready for marriage; what, 13 or 14 years old, or something like it.

        I’ve understood that they had arranged marriages back then, but human beings being what they are, I’m sure Meet Cute’s were going on behind daddy’s black robed back. They may not have been culminating in intercourse, but I can imagine Jewish boy meeting Jewish girl on the sly to make out. I don’t think that is too far fetched an idea even for that culture.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        Jason, this is in response to your last comment at the bottom of the thread.

        I’ve mentioned we know a guy in his 40s who married a single mom in her 20s (they met at narcotics anonymous). She HAS changed (though she was tempted into smoking pot by other Christian women!!).

        Anyway, she says when she first saw him walk into the NA meeting, she said to herself “I’m going to marry that guy” supporting the idea that women tend to choose the man. I assume she gave some sort of IoI.

        Like

  19. ramman3000 says:

    Jack says:

    “…Meet Cute is more Biblical than anything else being offered right now. It’s a step in the right direction… It is difficult to describe in concrete terms… [Meet Cute] is observable but not easily explained. I’m doing my best to explain it in qualitative terms.”

    I can argue that tee-totaling and non-violence are more Biblical than anything else being offered right now, but no one is rushing to convert to Anabaptism. Bible-compatibility doesn’t make it useful or attractive. To wit:

    lastmod says:

    “…in a classic Meet Cute… the loser usually has to accept his place and be happy for everyone else.”

    I have yet to see a satisfactory answer to this. There has been some talk about improving one’s self (e.g. “Go to the gym! Be alpha bro!”), but one could have a lifetime of self-improvement and get nowhere. What bothers me about Meet Cute virgins is the assumption that they are automatically defective in some way.

    In concrete, non-qualitative terms: how does this help Jason?

    Like

  20. surfdumb says:

    The Red Pill work out mantra seems legalistic, IMO. Jason is stewarding his body and disciplining it (dancing and 135 mile hikes), but yet, he is told he must gain muscle mass.

    Pshaw. If that floats your boat, great, but it’s made into a core tenet here and at Deep Strength’s.

    I remember Scott catching grief for having an aerobic routine and not focusing enough on mass.

    Maybe that is actually a more Christian view that I haven’t matured into yet, but I am not being sold on how it is pitched. For example, the eating extra calories advice — that seems like worrying about what I should eat in a way contradictory to Matthew 6:33, and in a way that is different than eating healthy. So I should be fasting at least once a week, according to mature Christians I know, but also eating more than I am hungry for the rest of the time?

    Why not fast and pray more and ask for a woman who enjoys a trim and fit lad instead?

    Then there is the scheduling problem, making time for lifting is only a fraction of it, the grumpiness that comes with being fatigued and sore is different than from a hard days work. If lifting to fatigue is enjoyable in it’s results (I have liked it, but not as much as a combo of running and lifting), and it can be done without injury, then excellent. Some of us do have other injuries that are like a thorn to bear (no snapped tendons thankfully), and so it’s not right to push lifting onto believers in such a one-size fits all advice.

    Liked by 1 person

    • anonymous_ng says:

      @surfdumb, I’m a meathead who’s been in the gym for decades, but I kind of agree with you. One online fitness personality who worked in Manhattan for a time as a personal trainer talked about how gym bros self-select for people who are good in the gym. He told stories of how guys would workout regularly for years in order to finally bench press 155#, and when the whole gym would stop for someone to deadlift 225#.

      Maybe he was making it up, maybe it’s true IDK.

      I think physically Jason is doing fine. From his videos, he looks to be trim and in good shape. If he wants to lift weights, he should lift weights. If he doesn’t enjoy it, then run, or hike, or play tennis, etc.

      There is not requirement in the Bible to lift weights, only to take care of the body God gave us.

      Like

    • Oscar says:

      @ surfdumb

      “…he is told he must gain muscle mass.”

      No one is telling Jason he “must” do anything. Jason claimed he can’t build muscle mass, which is false, and and excuse, and that he tried, and couldn’t, which is a lie.

      “Why not fast and pray more and ask for a woman who enjoys a trim and fit lad instead?”

      Oh, so you’re in the “just pray for a wife” camp. You obviously haven’t been reading Jason’s screeds, have you?

      Like

    • Sharkly says:

      I gave Scott grief about his 18 hour a week extreme cardio workout routine and extreme diet that didn’t really give him any more muscle or any better abs than I had gotten from my 1 hour a week and eating whatever. His routine was going to cause excessive cortisol build up and result in a lot of work to maintain the same amount of muscle. Scott has other goals like speed and aerobic fitness, but people can’t see that stuff, so his extreme workout wasn’t a good fit for building an attractive physique with minimal effort.

      If every man worked out and was huuuuge, women would still only be attracted to the top 20% of men. Ultimately some folks would be better off working on their personality, their career, or other areas of their life. The focus on how to appeal to women’s base nature is the wrong priority for a place like this where intellectual men try to re-envision the world. We should focus more towards how to correct women’s nature and rebuild a holy patriarchal society. IMHO

      1 Timothy 4:8
      For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

      Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        Well I guess, but whatever Scott is doing works — the guy is pretty freakin’ fit for a 50 year old.

        Like

      • redpillboomer says:

        “If every man worked out and was huuuuge, women would still only be attracted to the top 20% of men. Ultimately some folks would be better off working on their personality, their career, or other areas of their life.”

        Agree. I go to the gym regularly because I like it and have the time to do it. I get to observe quite a bit there. I’ve run my own little thought experiments while observing the workout tribe, one goes like this: “If I was a woman, who would I be attracted to in here?” Yes it’s an imperfect experiment because I’m obviously not a woman, but it is interesting nonetheless in what it seems to yield.

        What I’ve found is it does sort the men into two categories based on visual appeal: ‘Handsome’ (to me playing her) and then the rest of the men. It’s like a first cut. Then the one’s who make the cut are sorted on what kind of ‘aura’ the guy is giving off. It’s kind of, “Hmm, he may be a ‘nice’ guy,” like in nice to be with, not nice as in beta. Does ‘handsome guy’ seem like someone I’d like to get to know better by the ‘aura’ he’s giving off, or is he just eye candy?

        That’s where the experiment ends, because as a guy, I know for the woman, even if a random gym bro made it through these two visual gates, she’d know NOTHING about him really. Not his personality, his morals, his worldview, his ambitions, his job/career, his finances, etc. In short, she’d have to VET him to get a complete picture. AND, she might be surprised to find out that there’s not all that much there, or whatever else is there is unappealing to her.

        I can see why our younger women, under 30, create so many problems for themselves in the present and future, if they think, “Hmm, hot stud, I’d like to sleep with him!” She has no idea what she’s sleeping with, maybe a better way to put it, exactly WHO she’s sleeping with.

        So for the guys, workout for YOURSELF, for your health, fitness, and self improvement goals. Do NOT workout for women. Do YOUR workout routine: weights, running or whatever combo it is that works for you, and forget about looking like a ‘gym bro’ for the ladies. The Manospherian trope, “Hit the gym… Bro!” is shallow and likely will NEVER (except on the rarest of rare occasions) lead to a quality LTR. Might get lucky and bang a girl or two, but where does that get you really? Probably no where in finding and creating a quality relationship.

        BTW, I have no idea how Chad and Stacy get together at the gym because they don’t even speak to one another, or rarely do. I’m sure they all check each other out, we all do, that’s human nature. However, as far as I can tell, the old school ways of talking and flirting, I rarely see any of it going on at the gym. Now here’s a thought experiment, “How does bench press Chad and squatting Stacy get together, if they don’t even talk to one another at the gym? Telepathy or something?”

        Like

      • ramman3000 says:

        ““If every man worked out and was huuuuge, women would still only be attracted to the top 20% of men.”

        So it’s all a zero sum game, with each men positioning himself to be higher relative to another. The implication is that if I win, you lose.

        If one is of European descent and is able to do their genealogical research, they’ll likely find that they are descended from royalty or wealthy/elite land-owners. During the middle ages into the industrial revolution, only the top ~20% of men had most of the children. The life expectancy of the lower class was so low that it was unable to reliably establish family lines. To top it off, the wealthy would sometimes have mistresses and bastard children, which served to further push out the poorer breeding stock.

        I can understand if people don’t want to play this game when the odds of success are so low and stacked against you from the outset.

        Like

  21. cameron232 says:

    I know I keep saying this, but in my mind fitness isn’t what would get Jason a wife (hypothetically speaking). It would be his being established with a career and potential as a solid provider, father, etc. Possibly to a thirty something woman as a guess.

    I think where this working out stuff is most relevant is for the video-game generation of boys who are now very un-fit young men.

    Many of them don’t look visibly stronger than the girls they want to date/marry. Some amount of gym work or even bodyweight exercises would help get them out of the category of men that women actively select AGAINST. They don’t need to be gym rats. Women tend to want men that look stronger/more masculine than the average woman.

    Like

    • Jack says:

      I shouldn’t need to remind everyone that all the advice you read here or elsewhere should always be filtered through your own personal biases — that is, your personality, goals, life purpose, spiritual needs, values, personal experience, place in life, and so on. What works for one may not work for another. The advice that is golden to one may be a can of worms to another. We should not expect full agreement on every single thing. Ultimately, this site should be seen as a smorgasbord buffet of ideas, viewpoints, and techniques which cater to the Christian man. It’s up to each reader to pick and choose wisely and make it work out.

      I think if Jason went to Poland, Estonia, or Latvia, or even the Philippines, Thailand, or Taiwan, he would quickly change his tune about women. In 8 months time, we would hear him griping about how women are too demanding, or they just want his cash, or his time, or his seed, etc., and what a pain in the @ss they are to deal with.

      Liked by 1 person

      • anonymous_ng says:

        Jack, that’s a fair point.

        When I was married, we lived on the East coast, close to sea level. My ex-wife made amazing Nestle Toll House cookies. When we moved back to a high-altitude western city, her results were a shadow of the easy mode she had before.

        Similarly, the pickup artists in NYC don’t impress me. There are far more women than straight men there. At the same time many of the mountain states have more men than women. That’s one issue I run into, I live in a more liberal area in a mountain state where there are fewer women than men.

        Like

      • ramman3000 says:

        “There are far more women than straight men there. At the same time many of the mountain states have more men than women.”

        I’ve made mention of this on a number of occasions: move to somewhere where your marriage prospects are better and adopt the culture of that area. But who wants to do that? Very, very few.

        Like

      • Oscar says:

        @ ramman3000

        “I’ve made mention of this on a number of occasions: move to somewhere where your marriage prospects are better and adopt the culture of that area. But who wants to do that? Very, very few.”

        I’ve opened up that can of worms multiple times on this blog. Just a few days ago, in fact.

        Liked by 2 people

    • Oscar says:

      @ cameron232

      “I know I keep saying this, but in my mind fitness isn’t what would get Jason a wife (hypothetically speaking). It would be his being established with a career and potential as a solid provider, father, etc. Possibly to a thirty something woman as a guess.”

      First of all, Jason is the one who brought up fitness.

      Second, did you see how Jason reacted to the advice that “It would be his being established with a career and potential as a solid provider, father, etc.” back at Dalrock’s blog? Is there any reason to think he’d be any more receptive to that advice now?

      @ Jack

      “I think if Jason went to Poland, Estonia, or Latvia, or even the Philippines, Thailand, or Taiwan, he would quickly change his tune about women. In 8 months time, we would hear him griping about how women are too demanding, or they just want his cash, or his time, or his seed, etc., and what a pain in the @ss they are to deal with.”

      Did you see how Jason reacted to the advice that he go “to Poland, Estonia, or Latvia, or even the Philippines, Thailand, or Taiwan” back at Dalrock’s blog? Is there any reason to think he’d be any more receptive to that advice now?

      Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        “Is there any reason to think he’d be any more receptive to that advice now?”

        Oscar, I don’t think he’s looking for a wife now — why I said “‘hypothetical” I suppose. I think the workout advice is less relevant for someone who is 50 vs. a 21 year old man. At 50, the goal of not being a fat slob is probably good enough. I think women open to marring a 50 year old have a different viewpoint and priorities than a woman looking at men in their early 20’s. That’s my guess anyway.

        Like

      • Lastmod says:

        Exactly Cameron. Now…. I even… way up… made it clear that when fitness was brought up as a part of Meet Cute in reference to what Scott did say plainly in his video… it wasn’t listened to, nor was Scott’s original point I might add. It has turned into this.

        No one wanted to drop it. As usual, Lastmod is being decisive, lying, and every other word under the sun… and again it’s instigated by one person, and one person only.

        Oscar has the ‘tude of “I did it, what is your excuse?” answers, and he must be very pleasant dinner company to be around.

        Cameron, you are correct. Not anymore. I was until my mid forties. I was even open to dating a single mom and marrying one who indeed by her ACTIONS (not words) changed or turned her life around. That was squelched here and Dal’s forum very quickly. No woman who is a single mother can repent or change, that was made pretty clear.

        If I was 25-27, I would have moved to Wales. To do what? I don’t know. That can’t be answered. Worthless, and waste of time to ponder. I did consider after undergrad of looking for work there, and even perhaps to settle there.

        Time just ran out. I am not miserable as I am accused of here frequently. I will admit I am not happy….. but I have never really met too many people who are. Sure, moments of happiness. or an ideal of it. But happy? No not really. I don’t think I ever have been happy.

        Like when Christians say they “know god”… well… okay… They may know the “things of god”, but knowing Him???? That’s a big claim… and for everyone who claims it. If they really did, they would not dare behave the way they do out of fear.

        Yes, my father did gain some muscle after a LIFETIME of carrying heavy things. I carry a backpack frequently enough, loaded down for long treks… and you did mention that doesn’t make muscle. Confusing.

        So… as for the sum up of this… Well, I do know this Meet Cute thing happens. I do know the guy does NOTHING to initiate it. The woman chooses and decides (like just about all interactions in these matter, despite what Game says). A man can have one and one only, or many (like Scott did before his wife). Meet Cute doesn’t happen to many, and it is not as common today for the facts mentioned above (social media, heads dropped into a phone).

        Again on the IOI’s. Most men are not getting them from women. Not because they don’t “understand them” but most are just not having them directed at them. If you are a man who gets them. Congrats. You’re better than most of us. You won!

        I still disagree on how Jack has not spun… but nudged this as a “god thing”, and I don’t think it is, because then it can then drift into the “fate / soulmate / chance” thing, and having men throw their chips on this is dangerous, and a waste of their time.

        Liked by 2 people

  22. Devon70 says:

    I think American guys that aren’t in the top 20% should look to other countries where at least you would be starting with a woman that is a healthy weight and isn’t covered with tattoos. I know AWALT but most American women can’t even control their eating in addition to all the other red flags that are discussed here.

    Liked by 3 people

  23. feeriker says:

    anonymous_ng says:

    “Online dating has risen because people are about one tenth as social as they were in the ’70s. My parents used to get together with friends to drink and play cards, and us kids ran around outside and played hide and seek, and prank called people on the phone.

    I don’t sense that is happening anymore.

    Just a thought.”

    This is a VERY important point, one that almost no one pays any attention to, probably because it has been the norm for so long (at least three generations, I’d say) that everyone is inured to it, like a fish not knowing that it’s surrounded by water.

    Worse still, churches perpetuate this atomization and self-centeredness, further evidence that the secular culture has so fully consumed the western church as to render it useless as a source of salt and light.

    The more I think about it, arranged marriages may not be a bad idea at all. Certainly not the ideal, but arguably better than the fruitless toxicity we’re awash in now. Maybe it’s just that fallen humans, by our nature as such, have always had a limited number of workable options, none of them ideal. Arranged marriages are a non-starter, however, since they require strong families and communities in order to be viable, and we in the West certainly don’t have those in this day and age. Thus evidenced by your lack of opportunities to meet new women who would be suitable as potential wives.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Sharkly says:

      You still have to fix our religion first and then our culture.

      “In the same way politics is downstream of culture, culture is downstream of religion.”

      If you change from each man manning-up and picking a churchian whore to marry, to arranging for each man to marry an expertly selected churchian whore, how does that change the fact that you’re still going to be married to a man-hating entitled whore in the midst of a divorce-rape-culture that is largely supported by the churches?

      Liked by 2 people

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