The Tennant Authority Structure

A critique of Bnonn Tennant’s approach to Genesis 3.

Readership: Christians
Theme: Headship
Author’s Note: Coauthored by Lexet and Jack.
Length: 2,000 words
Reading Time: 11 minutes

Announcement

I’ve opened a new account at Substack. You can check it out here:

https://lexet.substack.com/


Bnonn Tennant’s Viewpoints

I’ve been really busy so I have been sitting on this for a while, but a long time ago on their Faceb00k page, It’s Good To Be A Man went on a spree of posting bizarre interpretations of scripture. They then deleted posts / comments, and started blocking anyone who raised any questions.

Here’s a clip of one such interaction between Bnonn Tennant and a commenter on their Faceb00k IGTBAM ministry page…

In the above interchange, the commenter wrote,

“Sin is such a twisting device; it seeks us to rule over our wife like we should rule over sin, and treat sin patiently and lovingly as we should be treating our wife.”

The focus of his comment is on how we approach sin, with the marital relationship being used as a comparative analogy. The commenter is clearly a churchianized complementarian, as there is a strong negative connotation with “rule” here, only as it applies to the husband ruling over the wife (in contradiction to Genesis 3:16, which states that husbands shall rule over their wives). But yes, sin is twisting. If we correct this bias error, then the sentiment behind the commenter’s statement infers that he was trying to say,

“Sin is such a twisting device; it seeks us to oppress our wives while we treat sin patiently and lovingly, when instead, we should be ruling over sin while we are being patient and loving with our wives.”

While wordy, and filled with churchian presuppositions, the intent of the comment was benign, and something most would agree with on a superficial level. That wasn’t good enough for Bnonn. In response, Bnonn picked out the above commenter as the “culprit”, and unleashed an unprovoked tirade, stating that the commenter’s critiques are random and nonsensical.

Bnonn Tennant responded,

“It looks like you’re conflating “treating” and “ruling” by reading an entire theology of how to deal with various “subjects” into Genesis 3:16; 4:7. As a result, you’re forced to see “but he will rule over you” as something new and cursed that God has added to federal headship, rather than a simple statement of contrast between Eve’s cursed desire and the good rulership that God already established in the created order.

If that’s so, you’re reading something into Genesis that is simply not there. We can know that, at least, from the many other passages that speak of the rulership of a man over his wife: that he is to her as the Lord Jesus is to the congregation; i.e. her lord. [Citation of 1 Peter 3:1-8] The bible doesn’t call the husband the leader of his wife, it calls him the head and the lord of his wife.”

Those of us who are well read on Dalrock can get the point, but why all the vitriol towards a reader who is starting to “get it”?

What does Bnonn Tennant believe?

It’s clear from his comment that Tennant subscribes to Federal Headship (FH). Personally, I have a negative opinion of FH, but I will not go into that here. Readers who are familiar with FH might comment about how this influences his argument.

According to this dialogue, Bnonn’s responses communicate his beliefs to be the following:

  1. Male rulership, according to Genesis 3:16, is not an indication of a curse.
  2. The nature of male rulership did not change as a result of the fall.
  3. The statement, “he will rule over you”, poses a contrast between Eve’s cursed desire, and the “good rulership” that God had already established.
  4. That marital headship is a perfect analogy to the relationship between Christ and the Church.

On point 1, Tennant is going overboard in his defense of headship. It is true that there was headship pre-fall. It is true that Adam had authority over Eve. However, “he will rule over you” is given in the same pronouncement as sorrow, pain in childbirth, and increased desire, so it is hard to penalize someone for thinking that it is not somehow part of the curse.

With point 2, the glaring problem is that there is effectively no basis for saying that improper rulership over a woman is not a product of the fall. Ephesians 5:25-29 encourages husbands to love their wife with the implication that in our fallen world, our default is to be harsh in “ruling over” our wives.

Third, we have a logical conundrum here. The woman is placed at enmity with her husband — she will strive for his power. Does it make sense that strife within a marital relationship would be taken in stride, as opposed to causing a reaction (i.e. passivity on one end, harshness on the other)?

On the last point, the likeness between Christ and the Church and Husbands and Wives is an analogous ontology to be regarded as an ideal for us to work towards. Unfortunately, it is not the real thing, and it will never be so because we are in a fallen world and in a state of sin. While we hope to grow in our sanctification, we will never be perfect. But instead of holding this up as a model to aspire to, Tennant appears to be laying this down as a law comparable to the 10 Commandments; one that must be obeyed or else!

Douglas Wilson

Tennant and Foster are not the only guys who are confused about Genesis 3:16. Douglas Wilson holds a very similar interpretation of this passage, which might explain why they often cite his work on this and many other topics. If readers are interested, Wilson v. Genesis 3:16 (2020/9/26) from Full Metal Patriarchy recounts a conversation he had with Douglas Wilson over his ever changing interpretations of this scripture.

A Double Minded Man

Hold on! Just when we think we’ve understood Tennant’s stance, a little more reading from his blog shows that he is more confused than we might’ve believed!

In the series he linked to at the end of his comment on FB, Tennant contradicts the stance he took on FB by admitting that man’s rule is not always good. In the sixth post in this series, he writes,

“The problem since the fall has been that men, by nature, cannot represent God. In our natural state we are enemies of God; we stalwartly refuse to rule on his behalf; we will always choose to rule for ourselves instead. We choose injustice over justice, vice over virtue, divisiveness over shalom — because every thought and inclination of our hearts is only, always, toward evil (Genesis 6:5; 8:21; Jeremiah 17:9).”

In the Habit of Goring (Bnonn Tennant): What is the kingdom of God? Part 6: how God is retaking Adam’s kingdom from Satan (2017/3/29)

Of course, he is right about this. The Bible declares that man’s nature is corrupt in many other verses in addition to those cited by Tennant. (See Job 14:1-6Psalm 14:1-3Isaiah 53:6Isaiah 59:7-15Isaiah 64:6-7Romans 3:10-20Romans 3:23; et al.) We need look no further than the history of government to find real evidence of this.

Conclusions

In the earlier conversation on FB, Tennant is correct in pointing out the commenters negative bias against “rule over”, but he fails to acknowledge the reader’s primary fear that man’s rule is not always good. If the commenter was already aware of the scriptures that describe the corruption of man (which are emphasized in churchian circles), then I can see how he could be confused about what Tennant is saying.

It seems that Tennant cannot bring himself to see nor admit that it is God’s ordained order for men to rule over their wives, and that man’s rule is corrupted by the sinful nature (as a product of the fall) and therefore may not always be good. For the uninitiated or those weak in faith, this might call into question the fundamental goodness of God.

At first, we might think Tennant’s theological dance is founded on the Complementarian conclusion that it is better for men not to rule, but to implement a “Federal” system of authority in which authority is shared with women (or “nicely balanced” as Wilson puts it), thereby making it necessary to deviate from God’s ordained order. The fact that women are also fallen, possess less moral agency than men on the average, and are therefore also unfit to lead is casually glossed over, but if this does come into question, this is then easily explained as being another consequence of the fall.

Or, maybe Tennant is aware that such an admission would undermine his whole argument in favor of man being the ruler over his own household (which is correct, but questionable in the eyes of his churchian followers).

Dominic Bnonn Tennant

While it is truly humbling to present a frustrated argument that is nevertheless true, this logical conundrum is exactly what pushes us to find faith in Jesus. But instead of allowing us to see Jesus, he doubles down on saying male rulership is good (and whips his reader in doing so), and then says, “Go see my other series” in which he presents a Biblical exegesis that says male rulership is corrupt.

A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

James 1:8 (KJV)

I suppose things like this are why IGTBAM has decreased in popularity since that time. It must be exhausting for their followers!

It would be much simpler and easier to say that it is right for man to rule (e.g. Headship, patriarchy, etc.), but it is difficult for men and not always good for women. But even so, a lack of male rule would be much worse. Thus, having good strong male rulership is essential.

More Contrasting Exegetical Interpretations

If I haven’t worn the reader out yet, here’s another blunder from Tennant.

Tennant also castigated his reader’s stance on Genesis 3 to be “outside the entire Reformed tradition up until the advent of Feminism”, thereby insinuating that his own stance was in line with Reformed doctrine. So let’s compare Tennant’s beliefs with those of the heavy hitters.

John Calvin’s commentary on the relevant portion of Genesis 3:16 states,

“The second punishment which he exacts is subjection. For this form of speech, “Thy desire shall be unto thy husband”, is of the same force as if he had said that she should not be free and at her own command, but subject to the authority of her husband and dependent upon his will; or as if he had said, “Thou shalt desire nothing but what thy husband wishes.” As it is declared afterwards, “Unto thee shall be his desire,” (Genesis 4:7.) Thus the woman, who had perversely exceeded her proper bounds, is forced back to her own position. She had, indeed, previously been subject to her husband, but that was a liberal and gentle subjection; now, however, she is cast into servitude.”

John Gill writes:

And he shall rule over thee, with less kindness and gentleness, with more rigour and strictness: it looks as if before the transgression there was a greater equality between the man and the woman, or man did not exercise the authority over the woman he afterwards did, or the subjection of her to him was more pleasant and agreeable than now it would be; and this was her chastisement…”

Matthew Henry writes:

“She is here put into a state of subjection. The whole sex, which by creation was equal with man, is, for sin, made inferior, and forbidden to usurp authority (1 Timothy 2:11, 1 Timothy 2:12). The wife particularly is hereby put under the dominion of her husband, and is not sui juris – at her own disposal, of which see an instance in that law, Numbers 30:6-8, where the husband is empowered, if he please, to disannul the vows made by the wife. This sentence amounts only to that command, “Wives, be in subjection to your own husbands”; but the entrance of sin has made that duty a punishment, which otherwise it would not have been.”

The Reformed Study Bible notes:

The harmony, intimacy, and complementarity of the pre-fall marriage relationship are corrupted by sin and marred both by domination and enforced submission. The restoration of this relationship takes place through new life in Christ.

Bnonn’s exegesis of the passage is strange and novel, it is not mainstream, and it is not historic. It is not from “Reformed theology.” John Calvin, John Gill, Matthew Henry, and the Reformed Study Bible all share an opposing view of this passage.

However, Tennant’s stance coincides with certain views of John MacArthur. The MacArthur Study Bible deviates from the sources above. It states [emphasis mine]:

“Just as the woman and her seed will engage in a war with the serpent, i.e. Satan, and his seed, because of sin and the curse, the man and the woman will face struggles in their own relationship. Sin has turned the harmonious system of God-ordained roles into distasteful struggles of self-will… the woman’s desire will be to lord it over her husband, but the husband will rule by divine design (Ephesians 5:22-25). This interpretation of the curse is based upon the identical Hebrew words and grammar being used in Genesis 4:7 to show how the conflict man will have with sin as it seeks to rule him.”

This is the first commentary that favors Bnonn’s position. As a side note, it is ironic that Bnonn, a self-described post-millennialist, would agree with the perspectives in the MacArthur’s study bible.

John MacArthur, however, is in line with the other interpretations of this passage cited above. On his exegetical sermon on the subject, he stated:

John MacArthur

“Let’s take the first line. “Your desire shall be for your husband.” Some have suggested that this means a sexual desire. That’s certainly not a punishment and that is something God gave them before the Fall. How else could He say, “Be fruitful and multiply,” if they already weren’t prepared to engage in that kind of relationship? This is not God cursing them by having the woman desire a physical relationship with her husband. She has always desired that in a perfectly loving way. This means something else. This means that her desire – her desire is going to be something negative, something that reflects separation and alienation. Up to this point everything does. Enmity was put between the serpent and the woman. Enmity was put between the man and the ground. And enmity is put between the wife and her husband. She can’t do what she wishes. She isn’t going to live her own life totally independent, like the feminists demand, because her husband rules over her. Whatever she wishes, whatever she desires is subject to his will. She won’t always get what she wants. She won’t always have what she desires. She’s going to have to bear the sorrow of unfulfillment. She’s going to have desires and dreams and ambitions that aren’t going to be fulfilled, because her husband does not have a perfect love for her, does not have a perfect understanding of her, or even, some might say, an imperfect understanding of her. And he’s going to rule her in ways that lack compassion and sympathy. This is how it is in the world. This is how it is.

[…]

On the other hand, verse 16, the end, “And he shall rule over you.” Let’s look at the word rule for a minute, mashal. It means to dominate, to reign, literally means to install in office. The idea is as the woman seeks to overthrow the rank, as the woman seeks to twist the divine order, as the woman seeks to master her husband, seek control over him, he dominates her. As the woman tends toward rebellion, the man tends toward despotism. And you have the battle of the sexes right here. That’s why there’s conflict in marriage. And there is conflict in marriage, no question about it. Her desire is teshuqah — teshuqah. It doesn’t mean sexual desire, she already had that before the Fall. It’s the desire to get her way. And it even shows up, sad to say, in places where it shouldn’t show up. Paul is writing to Timothy in the church at Ephesus and he says, “I permit not a woman to teach nor to” – what? – “usurp authority.” Because that’s a tendency.

[…]

What is it saying in chapter 4 verse 7? The Lord is speaking to Cain. He says, “Sin desires you.” What does that mean? Sin wants to control you. Sin wants to dominate you. Sin wants to take over your life. “But you must master it. You must rule over it.” It’s the very same expression. The woman desires to control man, and he rules over her. Sin desires to have you; you must control it. The woman then has the same desire for the man that sin has for Cain, a desire to control, a desire to have its way. And the husband has the same need to control his wife that Cain had to control sin.”

(See References below)

Going back to Bnonn’s comment, he would say that John Calvin, John Gill, Matthew Henry, and the editors of the Reformed Study Bible (as well as John MacArthur personally) have a viewpoint that is “random and nonsensical.” As I have just demonstrated, the majority consensus on the matter disagrees with him.

I do, however, think Bnonn is random and nonsensical. He is a so-called Calvinist / Reformed post-millennialist who rejects historic Reformed positions (and the interpretations recognized by non-Calvinists). The only widespread commentary that can offer him support is Dispensationalist.

References

Related

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108 Responses to The Tennant Authority Structure

  1. info says:

    Hence the importance of Character in selecting spouses in addition to their abilities. Wisdom and Justice for example is very important in Husbands to ensure good Rule.

    For Male Headship to work best. Is for his own Head to be Christ.

    Like

  2. info says:

    Although I would say that given in the Ancient world. Giving a name to something is an indication of dominion over them like when Adam named the Animals.

    When Adam named his wife “Woman” for she was taken out of man. Man had dominion over his wife even then.

    But that was quite different in nature to the post-fall state of Mankind.

    The ideal of Eden isn’t the Equality of Man and Woman in terms of Hierarchy. Heaven isn’t an egalitarian place.

    That’s what all communist utopias in history tried to create. Based on the assumption that Equality is Paradisical.

    Liked by 2 people

  3. Red Pill Apostle says:

    Jack,

    “At first, we might think Tennant’s theological dance is founded on the Complementarian conclusion that it is better for men not to rule, but to implement a “Federal” system of authority in which authority is shared with women (or “nicely balanced” as Wilson puts it), thereby making it necessary to deviate from God’s ordained order.”

    I think the way that you represent “Federal” headship here, with the authority being nicely balanced, is off. Federal headship is an essential concept in scripture, and there is no shared authority in it. We see the first instance of FH in the fall, where all of mankind is bound to sin by Adam. There is no shared authority with him when he bound us in sin’s captivity. Likewise, Christ’s FH as the better Adam, binds us to righteousness even though we have no authority on our own to attain it.

    Scripturally, FH is the authority to bind and loose those under authority. This concept is evident in Adam binding us to sin without our say in the matter and Christ binding us to righteousness, even though at the time he binds us we are dead in sin and actively enemies of God fighting against the very righteousness Christ imputes to us. The earthly representation of Christ and his church, marriage, displays the authority of FH as described in the Old Testament laws regarding a husband’s complete authority over his household within the boundaries God sets up for that relationship (no defrauding, limits on corporal punishment, minimums on provision, etc.), which includes the ability to nullify the pledges / contracts his wife enters into without his knowledge.

    Basically, FH is absolute authority, within the bounds of that authority given to you, to bind those under your care. It is important to note that in the biblical concept of FH, there comes with that absolute authority an absolute responsibility to rule for the benefit of what has been put under your care. This is what Christ perfectly embodied and was seated at the right hand of God the father. As husbands, ruling for the benefit of your purpose and the care of your family is standard we will be judged by when we are before our creator.

    VERY IMPORTANT NOTE here: I don’t mean yielding to your wife or trying to keep her happy. This can be the exact opposite of what we should do with headship’s authority and is the sin Adam committed as caretaker when he did not uphold God’s standard in the face of Eve eating the fruit. We are in fact to be God’s very standard bearers in our families humbly, because we ourselves are subject to the same weakness, rebuking sin in our wives and children and calling them to better follow God’s rules for our lives. (Sounds a little like what Christ does for the church, doesn’t it?)

    Like

    • Jack says:

      RPA,

      “I think the way that you represent “Federal” headship here, with the authority being nicely balanced, is off.”

      Lexet and I have described Tennant’s, Foster’s, and Wilson’s stance, as found in their writings. “Nicely balanced” is Wilson’s statement. They have identified themselves as subscribing to Federal Headship so this is apparently the source of the disjoint.

      Lexet has a negative impression of Federal Headship, maybe because of Tennant’s, Foster’s, Wilson’s, or other’s views on the subject. Perhaps Lexet could comment further about his own views on this. I don’t carry either a positive nor a negative view, but before your comment, I have not seen a convincing argument that Federal Headship is the same sort of Headship we discuss here. If it is the same thing, then it needs to be sorted out from Tennant’s, Foster’s, and Wilson’s views on the subject which I suspect are somewhat converged.

      Like

      • Lexet Blog says:

        These guys use the same terms, but ascribe different definitions to them. It’s always just “off” by a few degrees (like how they interpret “she will rule over you”).

        Like

      • info says:

        This is as foundational to True Christianity as the Trinity. They can affirm the Nicene Creed perfectly. Yet on those issues they depart from the views of the teachings of the Didache and the Church Fathers.

        Like

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Jack,

        The easiest way to understand federal headship as it is actually portrayed in scripture is this: there is authority within the sphere of control, intrinsically linked with responsibility to do good to those over whom that authority covers. This is Christ over his church and what we, as husbands are to emulate.

        The unbalanced emphasis on the responsibility to do good part is where I see the likes of Wilson, Foster or Tennant getting askew when it comes to women. But, as Dalrock hammered for years, if you diminish the authority part you end up with the scenario we are in where feelings rule the day. It will work something like the following, if a husband tells his wife to do something that makes her somehow emotionally uncomfortable, or even worse, hurts her feelings, then he is assumed to have sinned against her because he’s not doing good to her. Rarely, is the wife ever judged to see if she is breaking her responsibility to submit in all things.

        The closer the authority and duty to do good with that authority are in balance, the better a marriage reflects Christ and the church. When the balance skews to the extreme in either direction we end up with dictators. All authority with no duty to do good and we have an overbearing husband. All duty to do good with no authority and we have an overbearing emasculating wife who rules primarily by emotional manipulation. Either extreme is sin and keep marriages from being what they could be.

        Liked by 2 people

  4. thedeti says:

    I frequently find it helpful to return to the original text. Emphasis mine. All references NKJV.

    Genesis 3:16
    To the woman He said:

    “I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
    In pain you shall bring forth children;
    Your desire shall be for your husband,
    And he shall rule over you.”

    Ephesians 5:22-24
    22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

    I Peter 3:1-6
    1 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear. 3 Do not let your adornment be merely outward—arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel — 4 rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God. 5 For in this manner, in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands, 6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, whose daughters you are if you do good and are not afraid with any terror.

    This isn’t hard to understand.

    1) Submit to your husbands as unto the Lord. Therefore, your husband is your lord. He’s not THE Lord; but he is YOUR lord. You’re to submit to him as you do unto THE lord.

    2) Submit in everything. Everything means EVERYTHING. Every thing. All things. All. Every. All inclusive. Nothing excluded. Ev-e-ry-thing.

    3) When you submit, do so gently and quietly. Because it is beautiful. Because it is between you and God. Because God treasures it and wants it from you. Because it is beautiful to your husband, it’s between you and him, and because your husband treasures it and wants it from you.

    God wants our submission and obedience. If we aren’t willing to give it to Him, He will not make us give it to Him. He will not make us submit or obey. But if we will not, He simply cuts us loose and sets us free to do it all ourselves. And do all the work ourselves. And pay all the penalties for that lack of obedience ourselves. “Submit to Me; obey Me. You must submit to and obey Me.” “If ye love me, keep My commandments.” “That’s what you need to do. If you don’t want to do that, that’s fine; but you’re on your own.”

    Jesus did the same thing. “Follow Me.” That’s it. Just “Follow Me”. Not “I’m gonna make you follow Me” or “If you don’t follow Me, I’ll hate you.” Just “Make a choice. Follow Me. Or don’t follow Me. If you follow, here’s what will happen. You need to submit to and obey Me. If you do not, here’s what will happen, and you’re on your own.”

    So it is that men should do with women. “I’m going this way. If you want to come with me, we’re going this way. I’m not changing where I’m going. If you want to come, great. If not, OK, but you’re on your own.”

    The problem is that women think they are “equals” to men, and they think individual wives are “equal” to their husbands. The problem is wives putting all kinds of conditions and restrictions on their “obedience” and “submission” to their husbands. No. You don’t get to condition your submission. You submit, period. You do what he tells you to do.

    If you’re all that concerned about the character of the man you picked to submit to, that’s a measure of your character and your due diligence and your issues, not his. The time to worry about the man’s character is before you pick him. The time to consider whether you want to submit to this man is before you commit to that decision.

    If you’re really that worried about whether this man is going to tell you to rob a bank or get an abortion, you need to check your own heart, not his. That’s about your own fear, not him or his character. Most of women’s refusal to submit to husbands is not about them, but about the women themselves – their fears, their character defects, their mental illnesses, their daddy issues, their past sexual experiences with men, their own sins, failures, and shortcomings. You women need to stop putting that on men and start examining your own selves and sweeping your own stoops before you start putting all this on men.

    Sweep your own houses, ladies. Check your own hearts and own your own sh!t.

    Liked by 4 people

    • thedeti says:

      Oh and here’s another thing

      You women are to submit to your husbands even if they are not Christians and even if they themselves are in sin and disobedience. You’re to do this as an ultimate act of obedience to God and also because it’s possible that your own obedience may help convert your husbands.

      So I don’t ever want to hear ever again from any of you women that you don’t have to submit “because”. Because he doesn’t go to church, because he doesn’t read his bible, because he drinks a little too much, because he doesn’t obey, because he’s not “loving” enough, because, because, because. No. Not acceptable. The Word says you’re to submit to those ungodly men. Period. End of discussion.

      I don’t know why. Maybe because you knew they were ungodly and you picked them anyway. Maybe because they were obedient and then fell into sin, and God is using you to bring them back. I don’t know. The point is the Word says you have to submit anyway. So you don’t get to use “But but but he isn’t obeying God” as an excuse not to submit. No. Not acceptable.

      Look, ladies. You don’t like this? Take it up with God. Take it up with St. Paul. Take it up with St. Peter. Take it up with “your” Holy Spirit. The Word says what the Word says. Want to argue with God? Be my guest.

      Liked by 4 people

  5. thedeti says:

    “It seems that Tennant cannot bring himself to see nor admit that it is God’s ordained order for men to rule over their wives, and that man’s rule is corrupted by the sinful nature (as a product of the fall) and therefore may not always be good.”

    True, but irrelevant for the purposes of wifely submission. God dealt with the “but but but what if my husband isn’t Godly??” objection in I Peter 3:1-6.

    Newsflash, ladies: NONE of your husbands are perfectly obedient to the Word. You have to submit to them ANYWAY.

    Here’s another one: NONE of you are perfectly submissive. Guess what? We still have to love you ANYWAY. We still have to allow the world to nail us to crosses ANYWAY.

    If we men have to love your disobedient, ungrateful, constantly sinful a$$es, then you have to submit to and respect us.

    Liked by 4 people

  6. Kevin says:

    You know what I always found interesting about the Genesis story is that Eve ate of the fruit but her eyes weren’t opened. It was only after Adam ate that both their eyes were opened. This confirms what is written later about the authority a husband has over his wife, but it’s present before the fall.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Anonymous says:

      In addition to Adam naming her “woman”. Indicates dominion over her. In addition to his naming the animals.

      But since her submission is automatic like breathing before the fall. It doesn’t need to include “And he shall rule over you”.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Jack says:

        Anonymous,

        “In addition to Adam naming her “woman”. Indicates dominion over her. In addition to his naming the animals.

        But since her submission is automatic like breathing before the fall. It doesn’t need to include “And he shall rule over you”.”

        To summarize your statement, “And he shall rule over you” is a reiteration of a preexisting condition, and NOT a new addition.

        I think this is one of the main sources of confusion over the passage — not knowing what things were like before the Fall. Personally, I believe it is a difference of gradation and context. IOW, there was Male Headship before the Fall, but maybe not as firmly structured as after. Before the Fall, man and woman were both more dependent on God for basic sustenance and spiritual nurturing, but afterwards, woman became more dependent on the man for both sustenance and spiritual guidance, and man became more dependent on God for the same.

        Like

      • info says:

        @Jack

        Thanks for explaining.

        Like

      • info says:

        @Jack

        Both Headship and Work existed before the fall. The curse only made such tasks onerous and full of strife and evil.

        Liked by 1 person

    • Sharkly says:

      The creation account recorded in Genesis is poetical not chronological.

      The book of Jubilees, tells the story in more sequential detail:

      Jubilees 3:20-22
      20 And the woman saw the tree, that it was agreeable and pleasant to the eye, and that its fruit was good for food, and she took thereof and ate. 21 And when she had first covered her shame with figleaves, she gave thereof to Adam and he ate, and his eyes were opened, and he saw that he was naked. 22 And he took figleaves and sewed them together, and made an apron for himself, and covered his shame.

      Like

  7. Oscar says:

    “…he fails to acknowledge the reader’s primary fear that man’s rule is not always good…”

    What makes you think that “the reader’s primary fear that man’s rule is not always good”? From the short quote it looks as though the reader thinks man’s rule is inherently bad.

    Like

    • Jack says:

      Oscar,

      “What makes you think that “the reader’s primary fear that man’s rule is not always good”? From the short quote it looks as though the reader thinks man’s rule is inherently bad.”

      “Man’s rule is inherently bad” is a comprehensive summary of Tennant’s commenter’s viewpoint, which Tennant eschewed. I believe Tennant was correct in pointing this out as a wrong attitude to have, but his lambastic response was poorly directed and it contradicted what he wrote elsewhere. “Man’s rule is not always good” is my own revised statement. I assumed that the commenter holds this viewpoint out of a fear of man or feminist indoctrination based on fear. I could be wrong, but it’s impossible to know for sure what the commenter’s actual disposition was, whether it was a fear of man’s rule or the fear created by feminist indoctrination.

      Like

      • info says:

        “I could be wrong, but it’s impossible to know for sure what the commenter’s actual disposition was, whether it was a fear of man’s rule or the fear created by feminist indoctrination.”

        We are all subject to this environment. So we affected by this through osmosis through various means.

        There are real abuses of Authority in truth. There exists and existed parental abuse of children and bosses abusing their employees.

        Power is inherently dangerous after all.

        Like

      • Oscar says:

        “I could be wrong, but it’s impossible to know for sure what the commenter’s actual disposition was…”

        Agreed. There may be some mind reading going on. Tennant could have, and should have asked the reader what he meant.

        Like

  8. Pingback: An Analysis of Genesis 3:16 - Derek L. Ramsey

  9. Sharkly says:

    I like how the NET Bible translates the verse. I believe it captures the correct interpretation.

    Genesis 3:16 (NET)
    To the woman he said, “I will greatly increase your labor pains; with pain you will give birth to children. You will want to control your husband, but he will dominate you.”

    Here is the Expanded Bible which translates the concept similarly:

    Genesis 3:16 (EXB)
    Then God said to the woman, “I will ·cause you to have much trouble [or increase your pain] ·when you are pregnant [in childbearing], and when you give birth to children, you will have great pain. You will greatly desire [the word implies a desire to control; 4:7] your husband, but he will rule over you.”

    To say that wives are universally cursed to desire to submit to their husbands clearly goes against the well observed usurping nature of womankind, in their natural unredeemed state.

    Liked by 2 people

  10. Sharkly says:

    Like Derek Ramsey, I don’t think the post above probably accurately represents Bnonn’s arguments and beliefs. But, since Bnonn himself likes to twist people’s beliefs into a strawman that he can more easily beat the stuffing out of, and often deletes multiple comments from a thread, after he’s been talking foolishness, if anybody deserves to be misrepresented, it would be him.

    Bnonn and his buddy, pastor Michael Foster, seem to have trouble plainly speaking what they believe, because they’re still trying to make their message as appealing and as inoffensive as possible to Feminist churchgoers. I believe much of their obfuscating and dodging to appease the Feminist crowd, ventures into the realm of deception. They’ll say things, and then often try to walk them back when the Feminists attack. Just like most emasculated churchians.

    I’ve written about his slippery ways in the past:

    Laughing at Feminism: Bnonnas Foster — A Delightful Treat (2019/10/7)

    Liked by 1 person

    • Jack says:

      Sharkly,

      “I don’t think the post above probably accurately represents Bnonn’s arguments and beliefs.”

      Could be. Lexet gave me this draft a couple years ago, and I’ve been working on it off and on since then. I haven’t posted it sooner because it’s been difficult to come to a definitive conclusion about Tennant and Foster’s beliefs and I wasn’t very confident about what is written in the OP. I decided to post it anyway and get some feedback. This post might be better titled, “Musings on the Tennant Authority Structure” or “The Tennant Dance”.

      “…if anybody deserves to be misrepresented, it would be him.”

      LOL! I agree that they’re being dodgy in response to feminist churchians. It is doubtful whether they have any firm convictions about what to believe in the matters surrounding Genesis 3:16, but OTOH, it is still wildly contested as seen in Derek’s recent post on the subject. I’ll gracefully give them credit for having any position at all that is worthy of critique and for duking it out with the churchians. Every bit of argumentation brings us closer to a better understanding. Anyway, we’re trying our best to nail it down (if possible).

      Thank you for reminding me of your post from a while back. I’ll add it to the post under Related.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Lexet Blog says:

      It’s a problem Foster, Tennant, and literally every single person in the federal vision/CREC camp magically have. They are apostates and their mission is to lead people astray. Word salad, confusion, and ambiguity are their tools. These men are not “misunderstood,” they are EVIL.

      Liked by 2 people

  11. Pingback: The Context of Genesis 3:16 - Derek L. Ramsey

  12. This comment is mostly directed at the link right above me. (Derek Ramsey’s blog)

    I have been following along in the latest group of response posts, but NOT the entirety of the previously (probably) millions of words on that blog.

    First off, I can’t recall ever running into a writer who REALLY believes in sola scritpura on the level you seem to. There appears to be literally zero place in your hermeneutic for what [the church] (a place holder for a lot things, I know) has traditionally done with these texts. I have to commend you on the strongly held belief that this level of faith in the text alone to guide your life.

    I personally have grown weary of that approach. Having grown up in a tradition that takes it to the extreme (the mainline Church of Christ), I found it too daunting to live a wholesome Christian life without some help from the literal centuries of collective wisdom (and WAY smarter people) that came before me. In fact, I sometimes walk away from all this because it is the one thing that shakes my faith and makes me listen to Sam Harris podcasts.

    And you simply cannot get away from tradition about scripture.

    For example, where is the strict grammatico-historic hermeneutic found in the text itself? Pouring over the original texts, and parsing the verbs, pronouns, adjectives and so on, while taking such extreme care to learn about historical and cultural contextual clues, paying attention to things like what the author believed at the time, and all the rest of it is in itself a tradition that is not found in the text as a clear commandment about how to handle that very text <— as a path to salvation.

    Next. “Mutual Submission?” LOL!

    What does that look like in real life? As I said, you may have already given a textual sermon in your previous posts about how a man is supposed to mutually submit to (or with??) his wife in a real-life, down-in-the-trenches marriage, but I missed it.

    To me, in a best-case scenario, it would look like two people falling over themselves to submit in deference to the other and nothing gets done. Plus, as we have seen in literally thousands of blog posts in the Christian manosphere that this is not how women work. (And if you watched your parents growing up or you are married.)

    Men come here because:

    — They want to be respected in their marriage.
    — They (really do) care what their wives need/want.
    — They want lots of physical affection (sex) in their marriage because they were told (in the scripture) that this was coming if they committed and put a ring on it.
    — They are not afraid of commitment but they want peace and solitude in their own homes.

    And so on.

    How do the nuts and bolts of “mutual submission” accomplish that?

    **Side note: The one interpretation that you did not give to the Ephesians passage is this:

    Submitting to each other. [According to the exhaustive list of head / submission roles that are all over the text. Including wives to their husbands, employees to employers, citizens to sovereign, etc.]

    Liked by 1 person

    • info says:

      The Resurrection of Jesus Christ assures me of the Christian faith.

      Liked by 1 person

      • OK.

        But here’s my larger point.

        If the purist sola scriptura doctrine is correct, then this follows:

        You should be able to drop a copy of the canonized scripture into a formerly unChristianized civilization (in their own language) and return 2000 years later to find at the very least a group of Christians who believe roughly the same thing as modern protestants do.

        Those who argue from Derek Ramsey’s perspective are actually CORRECT in a sense, that you must strain credulity to force any of these headship models into the limited text available in ONLY the scripture.

        You must introduce “tradition” (which I argue is part of what the church does/did in order to conclude that there is some kind of hard hierarchy contained in what is available.

        And I am OK with that.

        Liked by 1 person

    • @ EOS

      In addition, Wayne Grudem (of CBMW) did a survey of the Greek literature on Headship / Kephale and came to the conclusion that it does mean “authority over” especially in the early Patristic writings.

      Wayne Grudem: Does Kephale (“Head”) Mean “Source” or “Authority Over” in Greek Literature? A Survey of 2,336 Examples (1985)

      Click to access kephale-article.pdf

      Moreover, Grudem wrote the dictionary about their exclusion of the definition of source in relation to headship, and they replied back:

      “I have no time at the moment to discuss all your examples individually and in any case I am in broad agreement with your conclusions. I might just make one or two generalizations. κεφαλή is the word normally used to translate the Hebrew var , and this does seem frequently to denote leader or chief without much reference to its original anatomical sense, and here it seems perverse to deny authority. The supposed sense ‘source’ of course does not exist and it was at least unwise of Liddell and Scott to mention the word. At the most they should have said ‘applied to the source of a river in respect of its position in its (the river’s) course’.”

      Wayne Grudem: Meaning of Kephale After 30 Years

      Translating the word headship as source of course is a feminist construct meant to tear down marriage headship. They often do that to Scripture by distorting it and taking out of context.

      As much as we lambast the Complementarians on their double talk on headship / authority of husbands but in practice they want to mean equality, Grudem’s research is solid.

      I’ve never seen DR post any backed research like WG exhaustive study on the word.

      Moreover, I think Paul uses the word headship and relation to the body with Christ : Church :: Husbands : Wives to remind them that:

      Husbands have authority over their wives just as Christ has it over the Church, but don’t lord that authority like the Gentiles do, but uses it to love and serve (e.g. Jesus’ teaching in Matthew 20 and Luke 22). In particular, the body is a reminder that no member is more important than another and each has their role that is valuable.

      Liked by 1 person

      • ramman3000 says:

        “I’ve never seen DR post any backed research like WG exhaustive study on the word.”

        Yes, I’m well aware of the hole. The response has been sitting in my drafts folder since October 1, 2022. It currently sits at 3,300 characters and contains no less than ten different links to your blog, as well as eight other external links. Due to — as you’ve noted — the extensiveness of Grudem’s work and the high quality nature of your own work (to which I am responding), this is going to take an unusually long amount of time for me to complete, and likely to span many articles. But at least I’m not starting from scratch.

        Like

    • Oscar says:

      “In fact, I sometimes walk away from all this because it is the one thing that shakes my faith and makes me listen to Sam Harris podcasts.”

      You mean the guy who said, “At that point Hunter Biden literally could have had the corpses of children in his basement, I would not have cared”? That guy?

      Australian News: Author Sam Harris says he wouldn’t care if Hunter Biden had ‘corpses of children in his basement’ (2022/8/19)

      Liked by 1 person

      • If I were to go find the most bizarre hyperbolic election related comments made by intellectuals on the left and use it to destroy their credibility on every other issue, it would be no more useful than when the left does it right wing thinkers.

        Sam Harris on his worst day sounds more rational on the issue of faith than Derek Ramsey does.

        The kind of Christian I can’t stand more than anything else are the ones who engage in dronning on and confronting others on theological purity and then pretend they aren’t.

        They are so insecure in their faith that they are poster children for atheism. Badgering people about what they think about the virgin birth or inspiration or whatever until they “catch” them believing wrong.

        Like

      • Oscar says:

        Sam Harris doesn’t sound rational on anything when you give his pseudo-intellectual, pretentious word salad some thought. His statement about murdered children in Hunter Biden’s basement was probably the most honest statement I’ve ever heard from him.

        Like

      • Oscar says:

        “In fact, Derek is doing this to me at this very moment on his blog…”

        Then, why even read it?

        Like

      • I make very empassioned arguments about Orthodoxy without all that. And my “side gig” of Orthodox apologist has resulted in so many “I’ve been reading along with you in the manosphere (or found something you wrote years ago) and my whole family is being chrismated next week”, I lost count.

        Like

      • “The kind of Christian I can’t stand more than anything else are the ones who engage in dronning on and confronting others on theological purity and then pretend they aren’t.”

        In fact, Derek is doing this to me at this very moment on his blog with his pharisaical line of questioning. He is playing grand inquisitor as if it matters. The latest being a question about what I believe Matthew 7:13-14 means. (I have to now provide a rationale for, I guess, the precise number of Christians over the course of the past, present and future who will be allowed through the narrow gate because Jesus.)

        If I get it wrong, I will be tacitly labelled not really Christian. And if I point it out he will dial it back, too weak to even defend his seething, just under the surface disdain for his definition of tares among wheat.

        But I too am educated and steeped in literally decades of that kind of goading because I was a Bible thumping southern Protestant most of my life. And I won’t fall for the trap. Nor do I really care, so I will grow bored with it after a while.

        Like

      • If I say anything about it, the response will be some version of “I’m not saying YOU are going to hell, I’m just saying.”

        Like a 12 year old.

        Like

      • I find his debates with the best Christian apologists out there to be quite interesting even if I disagree.

        Like

      • Oscar says:

        Meh. Harris can’t even explain where morality comes from, which is why his statement about murdered children is unintentionally honest.

        At least Hitchens was entertaining. Harris is pretentious, self-contradictory, and boring.

        Liked by 1 person

      • “Then, why even read it?”

        For the same reason I mentioned about all the orthodox conversions I’ve been fortunate to play a role in.

        If just one soul can see the difference between mature, lived faith and nit picking, navel gazing, child like sophistry maybe I’ll get another email like that in 5 years.

        Like

      • The Harris/Peterson debate (with Bret Weinstein moderating) was about a draw from a purely rational perspective in my opinion. Regardless of my own personal faith.

        But I guess that’s all subjective anyway. He’s one of the people I think would be interesting to have as a dinner guest.

        Liked by 1 person

      • I also have a soft spot for Harris because he was visciously attacked by academics on the left for agreeing with Charles Murray. And didn’t back down.

        I find that pretty ballsy.

        Like

      • I would put one finer point on it.

        All those guys —

        Peterson, Weinstein, Harris, Bogosian, Lindsay, (Douglas) Murray, and so on are the lefts bulwark against woke. And they have earned my respect because of it. I watch and support their podcasts because hard stopping the witch hunt against “racists” and all the other “ists” is the most pressing issue of our time. Way more important than what any particular Christian thinks about obscure theological constructs.

        Like

      • Oscar says:

        “If just one soul can see the difference between mature, lived faith and nit picking, navel gazing, child like sophistry maybe I’ll get another email like that in 5 years.”

        That’s a good reason.

        “The Harris/Peterson debate (with Bret Weinstein moderating)”

        That sounds like a singularity of word salad.

        “I also have a soft spot for Harris because he was visciously attacked by academics on the left for agreeing with Charles Murray. And didn’t back down.

        I find that pretty ballsy.”

        That’s commendable.

        “I watch and support their podcasts because hard stopping the witch hunt against “racists” and all the other “ists” is the most pressing issue of our time.”

        That horse escaped the barn so long ago it’s running wild, found some females, and sired dozens of foals by now. Peterson, Harris, Weinstein, etc. are arguing about the best way to close the door on a barn they don’t even realize is empty. They don’t even understand the problem, much less have any solutions.

        Liked by 3 people

      • Jack, sorry for the long winded side track.

        In the cringeworthy podcast between the annoying-voice Ezra Klein and Harris after the whole Charles Murry thing, Harris pointed something out that I found deeply moving.

        We are rapidly headed toward an age where people will be able to genetically engineer themselves and their children to provide all kinds of advantages. And as sure as we sit here today, only the super rich will have these technologies available. And yet we continue to make talking about genetic variables in outcome research a taboo subject — entirely off limits. Because H!t1er. Murray does not suggest anything even remotely nefarious in any of his books, but he also sees this coming.

        If the genocidal and mass murdering regimes of the 20th century are horrifying, the mid 21st century says, “Hold my beer.” Yet here we are pretending that absolutely zero of these disparities could be addressed by scientists of good cheer who are willing to confront them with decent solutions.

        Harris perceives that religion, particularly dogmatic religion is a barrier to the kinds of solutions and talk that needs to take place. He also points out that the left is engaging in the same type of religious fervor with wokeness.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Oscar says:

        “Harris perceives that religion, particularly dogmatic religion is a barrier to the kinds of solutions and talk that needs to take place.”

        Harris perceives that religion — particularly Christianity — is the cause of every problem.

        Like

      • When the above starts happening, the movie “Gattaca” will seem like soft core utopian p0rn.

        Like

      • “That sounds like a singularity of word salad.”

        Interesting. I don’t feel that way at all. Peterson is probably best described as a cultural Christian, though he would reject that term. He thinks of himself as a believer. Either way, he is well-spoken enough to provide a good rationale and defense of the faith.

        The most telling thing that reveals his cultural Christianity is when he says, “I behave as if [the Bible] is true.” That’s not exactly a chapter out of the cultural Christianity playbook, but its probably in the footnotes.

        In the debate (Harris / Paterson / Weinstein), that entire rubric leads to a discussion where Harris introduces his take on the psychology behind the heuristic device fathers tell their sons — “treat every gun as if it is loaded.” It is a fascinating roughly 1/2 hour side-detour during that debate that is worth it just for itself. Even Weinstein gets in on it.

        A real treat in my opinion.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Oscar says:

        I haven’t watched the debate, so I can’t opine on that specifically, but generally, both Peterson and Harris make good points. On the other hand, Peterson is a freak. Search for “Maps of Meaning grandmother dream” for one example. There are also plenty of examples of impressive word salad in video form online.

        Harris doesn’t even understand that he’s part of the problem. For example, is it wrong for Murray’s and Harris’ critics to “cancel” them? If so, by what standard of right and wrong that is universal and therefore applies to their critics just as much as it does to Harris?

        Is what Murray says true? If so, by what standard of truth that is universal and therefore applies to his critics as much as it does to Harris?

        Harris has no answers to those questions.

        And why debate anything anyway? The purpose of debate is to persuade, but persuasion requires that the listener have the ability to change or make up his/her mind, which requires free will, which Harris denies exists.

        Without the God of the Bible there is no universal moral law giver, no universal moral law, no universal standard of truth. We are where we are because people have abandoned God standard en masse, which is exactly what Harris wants.

        So, Harris doesn’t like the results of what he wants? So what? Who the hell is Harris to say what is good or evil, right or wrong, true or false? Who the hell is Harris to judge his critics? By what universal standard?

        Liked by 1 person

      • “Harris perceives that religion – particularly Christianity – is the cause of every problem.”

        No, that’s not right. When he first showed up on the national scene he was still a Ph.D. student and wrote his first book. That was in the mid 2000s, I think 2005. He was mostly focused on Islam in the wake of 9/11.

        He is against all religions.

        Like

      • Oscar says:

        “He was mostly focused on Islam in the wake of 9/11.

        He is against all religions.”

        I’m aware that Harris is against all religions (he’s an evangelical atheist after all, which is another self contradiction), and that his focus was originally Islam.

        Like

      • caterpillar345 says:

        “So, Harris doesn’t like the results of what he wants? So what? Who the hell is Harris to say what is good or evil, right or wrong, true or false? Who the hell is Harris to judge his critics? By what universal standard?”

        This is the biggest Achilles’ heel for all these guys, like Harris, that believe there is no universal moral law. In one sentence, they will condemn moral absolutes and in the next decry what Hitler did as evil without stopping to consider that.

        I listened to the recent (round 2) Sam Harris interview on Lex Fridman’s podcast. Lex kept pressing Sam over several issues and I found Sam to be out of touch and breathlessly intellectually arrogant.

        However:

        “Harris perceives that religion, particularly dogmatic religion is a barrier to the kinds of solutions and talk that needs to take place. He also points out that the left is engaging in the same type of religious fervor with wokeness.”

        He’s got a point here. The technological changes with AI, ChatGPT, and genetic engineering are both here already and coming soon. They will cause so much change so fast that the legacy religions will be left with their collective heads spinning because they will NOT tackle the moral and spiritual questions head on and figure out how to adapt to them.

        Like

      • caterpillar345 says:

        “That sounds like a singularity of word salad.”

        “Interesting. I don’t feel that way at all. Peterson is probably best described as a cultural Christian, though he would reject that term. He thinks of himself as a believer. Either way, he is well-spoken enough to provide a good rationale and defense of the faith.”

        I’ve heard many people compare it to word salad. But I don’t see it. I see Peterson carrying out his motto of speaking carefully and being precise with his speech. Just watch his 2018 interviews with Cathy Newman and Helen Lewis. It’s not word salad; rather it’s verbal sparring on a level that I’ve only read when Christ and Paul have their interactions with the pharisees.

        He tends to ramble in his lectures but I hear him working out his writing process “live.” Trying to find the right words to express exactly what he thinks about a topic. I agree with EoS — he is well-spoken and articulate enough to provide an in-depth and technical rationale and defense for religious faith to other academics and intellectuals.

        Honestly, it has increased my faith in the sense that concepts of Christian faith can scale and make sense from the simple layman to the complex and technical academic and intellectual.

        Like

  13. thedeti says:

    “Mutual submission” has nothing to do with the husband-wife relationship. It has to do with the body of believers’ relationships to each other individually and corporately. Feminists, complementarians, and others like to lump “mutual submission” in with the husband wife relationship because they just don’t like wife submission to imperfect men. So, they pull in “mutual submission” to “make it clear” that “men are expected to submit too”.

    Women really, really, really hate submission. They hate it. They threaten to leave churches over it and find churches with ear-tickling doctrines. They hate submission that much. There is no clearer evidence of the “curse of Eve” than women’s seething, spitting hatred for submission to a man, be it to her father, to her husband, or to some other man (except a male boss or supervisor, because he gives her money in exchange for “working” at a “job”).

    Liked by 6 people

    • ramman3000 says:

      ““Mutual submission” has nothing to do with the husband-wife relationship. [..] Feminists, complementarians, and others like to lump “mutual submission” in with the husband wife relationship because they just don’t like wife submission to imperfect men.”

      One of the reasons why the Patriarchal Manosphere is ridiculed by outsiders—for example, on Twitter—is because statements like this show its ignorance of other viewpoints. I do not accept mutual submission because I don’t like its consequences. This is not about feelings. It is about facts. Since you do not know your ‘enemies’, you are left to mischaracterize them with feelings-based language, a decidedly non-masculine feminine tactic.

      In this article by Koine-Greek expert Mike Aubrey, he notes that Ephesians 5:21 (“fear of Christ”) and Ephesians 5:33 (“respect her husband”) may form an inclusio, a rather common Biblical literary device. The consequence of this is plain:

      “If this inclusio is followed then it makes sense that the mutual submission of verse 21 applies only to the husband and wife relationship.”

      Far from being feelings-based wishful-thinking, this interpretation of submission has solid literary backing—especially when combined with the ellipses from the elided verb “submit” in verse 22.

      Like

  14. Pingback: Divine Command Theory - Derek L. Ramsey

  15. feeriker says:

    Off-topic: Charles Stanley has passed away at age 90:

    https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/charles-stanley-intouch-ministries-dead-obituary

    The poor man died knowing that his son, Andy, is out there essentially establishing his own new religion based on the most vile of heresies.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Elspeth says:

      Sad news, although he certainly lived a long, full life. May Charles Stanley RIP.

      It is an awful shame, this new heretical bordering on apostate version of the faith that his some Andy is propagating.

      Like

    • surfdumb says:

      I still listened to him regularly. I wonder if the reasons for his divorce will reach the public. Him getting a divorce has always been discouraging to me, and because I like his public teaching, thought maybe his wife left and he kept quiet to protect her.

      Liked by 1 person

      • elspeth says:

        thought maybe his wife left and he kept quiet to protect her.

        That was the general consensus at the time. Pretty sure that’s what happened.

        Like

      • thedeti says:

        Whose divorce? Charles’? Or Andy’s? Andy isn’t getting divorced is he?

        Liked by 1 person

      • elspeth says:

        He is referring to Charles Stanley’s divorce several years ago. 2000, I think.

        He was prepared to step down at the time but because he had made every effort to remain married, the church kept him, and he never remarried.

        Like

      • surfdumb says:

        Deti, Charles did many years ago, but he and his wife were still over 60, and maybe 70, when it happened.

        Like

      • surfdumb says:

        That’s news to me that he tried stepping down. I was hoping you, or someone else from the South would know more than I could find online over the years. I’ve kept up looking for news about because I listen to him, so it comes to my mind.

        Like

      • thedeti says:

        Yeah. Charles and Anna Stanley had a rough marriage, I guess. I read up on it when it happened. Anna filed for divorce twice; they reconciled the first time. The second time was in 1996 I think and they’d been married over 40 years. Anna said publicly that Charles decided work and ministry was more important than his marriage; so she had decided not to stay married. I guess he begged her to stay because her divorcing him meant he’d have to step down. He had told FBC Atlanta he’d step down as senior pastor if Anna left him.

        Anna left him. He reneged and said he wouldn’t step down because “God told him” to stay. Of course, FBC Atlanta did not want to be without its megastar Senior Pastor. So he stayed. Charles Colson and Al Mohler were mildly critical. Andy was an assistant pastor at FBC Atlanta; he left over it and founded his own church.

        Like

      • Elspeth says:

        I may be mistaken about his stepping down Surfdumb, but I recall at the time reading something along those lines. The standard line is that Stanley neglected Anna with his dogged commitment to ministry and according to Andy, whatever his word is worth, the marriage was “dead” well before the papers were filed:

        Vizaca: Why Did Charles And Anna Stanley Divorce After 40 Years (2022/12/29)

        So basically, he was a workaholic, and the rest as they say, is history…

        Liked by 1 person

      • Elspeth says:

        “Andy was an assistant pastor at FBC Atlanta; he left over it and founded his own church.”

        Of course he did. Makes sense that his perspective of events is biased in a particular direction. And of course he is preaching a different gospel, which is also biased in a particular direction from the Biblical doctrine his father preached.

        What is it with these kids? Stanley the younger, Schaeffer the younger, Sproul the younger, and so on and so on. It’s almost like being the son of a well-known and/or prosperous pastor is a bad omen.

        Like

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        From the article Elspeth linked to,

        “Dr. Charles Stanley’s divorce from his wife in 2000 was reportedly caused by what his former wife described as many years of marital disappointments and conflict.”

        We’re back to Jack’s axiom about contentious wives and conflict.

        Liked by 4 people

      • surfdumb says:

        Deti with the score! Thank you. So it may have been him. He got the wake-up call as Dalrock referred to it, from the Kendrick movies. We’ll never know if he killed, per his son’s comments. I have to assume, based on her age and being from the South, she was submissive in the way Deti says is needed from modern women. It just shouldn’t have happened. Yes, maybe he shouldn’t have had to step down if she had happened to be domineering and was trying to control his life, but my eyes are still so impacted by the blue pill culture that it “feels” right to pause a pastorship to save the marriage. He’s potentially a real case study for a man on a mission for God, even when a wife of 40 years decides to stop supporting him for better or worse. Why divorce the man though, because of neglect, if it was that? Did he really exclude her and give her no time? Extremely difficult, but I don’t see divorce solving the problem. Maybe an embarassing separation instead?

        Like

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Surfdumb,

        “We’ll never know if he killed, per his son’s comments. I have to assume, based on her age and being from the South, she was submissive in the way Deti says is needed from modern women.”

        Her submissiveness is questionable at best. She married a hard driver, probably because she found that quality in him attractive. When he turned out to be an actual go getter in his chosen vocation she did not agree with his choices, that disagreement became neglect in her mind and she divorced him over it. While we will never know what went on, she exhibited evidence of a woman who thought she knew best for the Stanley and wanted her husband to yield to her wishes. And, like many driven men, he probably got myopic on work and goals, but she chose him to obey and support. It was her job to support him in his life’s work even if she didn’t like his choices. These are hard lines in the sand that are very hard for many women just like husbands have hard lines that are very hard for them (Stanley had to love her like Christ loves the church even when she was apparently not doing her part).

        There are lots of women in the deep south that like to have the pose of being the good wife with the perfect kids and family but are passive aggressive control freaks or, behind closed doors, are confrontational overt control freaks. Mrs. A was the latter with social media being the outward expression of the perfect life, while in private she was insufferable. She was born and raised in the South and it didn’t mean a hill of beans.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Surfdumb,

        I just had a crazy thought. It’s a little off the wall so bear with me. What if, just maybe, and it’s so crazy that I question even throwing it out there, but, what if Charles Stanley’s wife made life so great for him at home that he decided work was more fulfilling and rewarding? He goes home and his wife shows him the utmost respect and love. He goes to work and his decisions are questioned, he is faced with outright defiance and generally speaking the church staff and administration think he is not the most capable man to lead the flock. This general attitude of those that work for him continues over decades of his ministry, so much so that he spends all his time at work and avoids home as much as possible.

        If a decent man is avoiding the woman he vowed to die for if needed, his behavior should certainly be viewed critically, but the incentives present in his life also need a thorough examination.

        Like

      • Jack says:

        RPA, Surfdumb,

        “…what if Charles Stanley’s wife made life so great for him at home that he decided work was more fulfilling and rewarding? He goes home and his wife shows him the utmost respect and love. He goes to work and his decisions are questioned, he is faced with outright defiance and generally speaking the church staff and administration think he is not the most capable man to lead the flock. This general attitude of those that work for him continues over decades of his ministry, so much so that he spends all his time at work and avoids home as much as possible.”

        This would make sense if Stanley was the type of man who is motivated by challenges and finds peace to be enervating. Even if this is true, I find it more credible to believe that he had a great passion for his calling as a minister and his wife became envious instead of carrying her cross as a minister’s wife and willingly supporting him even though it was a form of suffering for herself. There’s another possibility too. Some women are really insecure and need a man around all the time, or else they go off the deep end. For some women like this, what they need is the affirmation of being relevant, for others it is sex, while others need love and companionship. Maybe Stanley’s wife is like this. My wife is like this and it really slows me down in my work. Sometimes it is so annoying that I cherish those quiet days in the office where I can have a few hours away from her nagging insecurities and attention seeking behavior.

        Like

      • info says:

        @Red Pill Apostle

        I am willing to bet that all those tribulations is God revealing the true nature of those women. God doesn’t like white-washed tombs. And if they won’t be purified by his Holy Spirit and by the Blood of Jesus.

        Then the cultural zeitgeist will draw that bitterness out. In regards to all Mankind they should say in their hearts: “Lord have mercy on me a sinner.”

        Like

      • thedeti says:

        “[Stanley] probably got myopic on work and goals, but she chose him to obey and support. It was her job to support him in his life’s work even if she didn’t like his choices. These are hard lines in the sand that are very hard for many women just like husbands have hard lines that are very hard for them (Stanley had to love her like Christ loves the church even when she was apparently not doing her part).”

        This isn’t discussed nearly enough. These women pick these men, and then complain incessantly about the men they picked, when they knew these men were like this when they picked them. No. Not acceptable. You picked him. You chose him. You had all the power. You had your pick, and you picked this man. So, no. You don’t get to complain about him when he’s just showing you a continuation of who he was before you picked him.

        Like

    • Oscar says:

      I didn’t know about Andy Stanley. I looked him up and found this.

      “Last month, a short clip of Stanley was posted on Twitter in which he said, “a gay person who still wants to attend church after the way the church has treated the gay community, I’m telling you, they have more faith than I do. They have more faith than a lot of you.”

      “A gay person who knows, ‘You know what? I might not be accepted here, but I’m going to try it anyway,’ have you ever done that as a straight person? Where do you go that you’re not sure you’re going to be accepted and you go over and over and over?” Stanley asked in the viral clip.

      Stanley acknowledged that there were verses in the Bible that condemned homosexuality, but then added, “Oh my goodness, a gay man or woman who wants to worship their heavenly Father, who did not answer the cry of their heart when they were 12 and 13 and 14 and 15. God said, ‘No,’ and they still love God?”

      “We have some things to learn from a group of men and women who love Jesus that much and who want to worship with us,” he continued. “I know the verses; I know the clobber passages, right? We got to figure this out. And you know what? I think you are.”

      The Christian Post: Ex-gays respond to Andy Stanley’s claim that LGBT people have ‘more faith than a lot of you’ (2023/2/8)

      Okay. Now, replace “gay” with “adulterer”, or “fornicator”, or “zoophile”, or any other category of sexual sin. Now how does it read?

      Liked by 3 people

  16. Red Pill Apostle says:

    On a sort of adjacent to on topic news article, David’s Bridal has filed for bankruptcy.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/davids-bridal-bankrupt-9000-layoffs/

    They also filed for chapter 11 in 2018, so while the article claims the current woes are Covid related, there seems to be a trend of declining sales prior to the pandemic. This would seem to fit with declining marriage rates which I believe can be attributed to not wanting to buy the cow when the milk is free and the widely known bias against men in family courts.

    Regarding headship, the more God’s model for marriage is followed, the greater chance a woman will be attracted to her husband. Women who aren’t attracted to their husbands are much more likely to divorce rape them and it does not take long before the word on the street is that a dating serial monogamy arrangement is the way to avoid the carnage.

    Liked by 1 person

  17. thedeti says:

    The onus is not on the husband to lead. The onus is on the wife to follow. She is to go where he goes. She is to do what he tells her to do – even if she doesn’t like it, even if it’s hard, even if it’s uncomfortable, and even if she could do a better job.

    I don’t ever want to hear ever again from any of you women, “Well, how are we supposed to follow our husbands when they don’t lead??” He IS leading. It’s just that you don’t like or approve of where he’s leading you. It’s just that where you’re going is making you uncomfortable. It’s just that you think you can do better.

    Again: The time to assess whether you like or “approve of” where your man is “going” or “leading” you is before you decide to “follow” him and before you decide to join your life to his. The time to assess whether you can follow this man wherever he’s going is before you decide to hitch your wagon to him. Before. Not after. Before. You assess the man before you choose him, before you follow him, before you say “yes” to a marriage proposal, before you lay with him, and for the love of God, before you let him knock you up.

    If you don’t like where the man is going, don’t pick him. If where he’ll take you makes you uncomfortable, don’t go with him, and leave him be. If you think you can do a better job than he can, leave him be and go do it yourself.

    Liked by 4 people

    • thedeti says:

      And you women have to follow even if he makes mistakes and even if where he leads doesn’t work out the way he thought it would. You still have to follow.

      1) If your husband has to love you even though you’re a sh!tty wife, you still have to respect your sh!tty husband.

      2) If your husband has to love you even though you submit imperfectly, you still have to respect the husband who screws up on occasion.

      Nobody’s perfect. You do not get to demand perfect unconditional love from a husband while conditioning your respect on his perfection. If he doesn’t get to demand perfection from you; you don’t get to demand perfection from him.

      3) You wouldn’t do any better. If you screwed up, you’d still be demanding love, as well as that your screwup be excused and the blame shifted to everyone else but you. You’d demand that you not accept responsibility for a bad outcome.

      Liked by 3 people

    • Red Pill Apostle says:

      “The onus is not on the husband to lead. The onus is on the wife to follow.”

      A very succinct way to put and the biblically correct frame. I’ll use this phrasing from now on. It takes the performance requirements (women’s 13,546,315,464 point list of qualities men need to have in order to be her suitable leader) off men’s leadership and focuses on women’s equally difficult act of faithful obedience.

      Liked by 3 people

  18. thedeti says:

    And how does a wife submit to and respect her imperfect husband even when it’s hard, or uncomfortable, or she doesn’t like it, or it wasn’t what she expected?

    She STAYS.

    The same way a husband loves an imperfect wife who has a hard time with submission and she bothers him and she won’t do her wifely duties?

    He STAYS.

    You STAY. You honor your promises. You do what you promised you’d do. You do what you vowed you’d do. You do the best you can and then you stand on it.

    And if you won’t do it for the man you picked, then do it out of obedience to God. If you won’t do it out of your own self respect, then do it out of obedience to God.

    Liked by 4 people

    • Red Pill Apostle says:

      I am always surprised that people don’t understand that their choices and actions determine their valuation as a husband or wife. We seem to naturally understand this concept when it comes to our attitude and work ethic and our value as a worker, athlete or student. But for some reason, and it seems women especially, we don’t understand that threatening to break our vows or actually breaking our vows lowers our value as a spouse.

      Once a spouse crosses that line of making the threat of breaking the vow or outright breaking the vow the trust is broken, due to the uncertainty created. Which is why I don’t get why men whose wives are leaving them get so emotionally wrapped up in trying to keep a wife who has shown she’s worth very little as a wife.

      Thedeti’s point of staying because that is the covenant you made is the only way to preserve value and that is done based on commitment to God and the standards the person holds himself or herself to.

      Like

      • thedeti says:

        And “breaking the vow” includes withholding sex. Withholding is a functional equivalent of adultery.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        “And “breaking the vow” includes withholding sex. Withholding is a functional equivalent of adultery.”

        Both adultery and frigidity are forms of sexual immorality in marriage. One is a sin of withholding a debt due to your spouse the other is giving the debt due to your spouse to another. But in our world only going outside of marriage is recognized as an issue. Withholding is accepted as a form of female empowerment, which makes withholding the more insidious of the two because it causes just as much damage but without society’s condemnation.

        I’ll add that withholding is often (probably always when outside of God’s rules, I’m still open to details where it might not be) a form of prostitution. Anything that seeks to get a form of compensation beyond the commitment vow that God requires in exchange for sex is exactly what it sounds like.

        “If you don’t X, I’m not having sex with you.”
        “I’ll sleep with you every day for a month if we can go on the trip.”
        “If you helped more with the chores then I’d have sex with you.”
        “When you behave more like X I’ll have sex with you.”

        All of these are the use of sex for personal gain against biblical teaching. These statements and hundreds of similar derivatives can be found in the vast majority of marriages. It does not matter if you are married and seeking compensation from your one John or are single with multiple, whether you barter for goods and services or accept cash, the definition is the same.

        Liked by 1 person

      • RPA,

        That is the truth. If a man has to earn his way into the marriage bed every single time by the amount of dishes he does, or by remembering birthdays, or a list of X, Y, Z, how could he not feel like a John?

        Sex should be the baseline. Anything else you do for each other is sacrificial love and just context.

        Like

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  20. feeriker says:

    Inre Anna Stanley divorcing Charles many years ago, I’m assuming that she was a typical example of the pastor’s wife who, for some unfathomable reason, thinks that she married a man with a profession rather than a calling. Apparently many pastors’ wives think that their husbands work a straight 9 to 5 job like a bank manager or insurance salesman. Anyone needing the comfort, prayer, or spiritual guidance of a pastor outside of office hours is not only just plain SoL, but is out of line and shameful for even asking for such assistance.

    And yet so many of them try to usurp / share their husbands’ titles and positional authority….

    Liked by 2 people

    • thedeti says:

      Yes. This whole “co-pastoring” and “first lady” thing that pastors’ wives do is utterly ridiculous.

      Liked by 3 people

      • feeriker says:

        To say that “pastor’s wife” is not a female role model that I hold in high esteem is the understatement of the millennium. If these women exemplified biblical womanhood in the way that their role calls upon them to do, then the church today would almost certainly be far less of a hive of female rebellion than what it is. As it is, pastors wives just add fuel to the wildfire of female rebellion against God that characterizes the modern churchian franchise.

        Liked by 2 people

      • thedeti says:

        “Pastor’s wife” has become an office in many new protestant churches, especially predominantly black churches, especially charismatic churches. You’ll find the pastor’s wife is either a “co pastor” with her own “ministry” and “spiritual gifts”; or the revered, honored “first lady” who prances and preens about, playing queen bee with her fawning “mean girls” entourage.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Elspeth says:

        “…or the revered, honored “first lady” who prances and preens about, playing queen bee with her fawning “mean girls” entourage.”

        I am familiar with this one…

        Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        “You’ll find the pastor’s wife is either a “co pastor” with her own “ministry” and “spiritual gifts”; or the revered, honored “first lady” who prances and preens about, playing queen bee with her fawning “mean girls” entourage.”

        The wardrobe, cultivated image and overly sweet smile hide the venom. I attended a church where it became clear that the lead pastor had his strings pulled by his wife who ran the admin side of the church. It was not a good arrangement.

        Liked by 1 person

      • info says:

        Those predominantly black churches you mentioned that have Pastor LARPers. Are no different than any potential woman larping as an orthodox Priest.

        And the Pastor’s wives who run the show indicate that neither of them are saved. Nor do they have the Holy Spirit Who is also the Spirit of Jesus in them. Else they would repent after conviction.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Info,

        “And the Pastor’s wives who run the show indicate that neither of them are saved. Nor do they have the Holy Spirit Who is also the Spirit of Jesus in them.”

        If what you said were true, then no one would be saved. Every human repeats the same sins time and time again. They may not even be aware that they are sinning, which is why the high priest had to make sacrifices for the Israelites sins of omission. When Christ set the new covenant, he did so knowing that the very people God told him to die for were still going to be those people who needed sacrifice for sins of omission, but in his case the sacrifice was a once and done.

        Be careful with theology, if it gets off a little it can head to places God never intended it to go.

        Liked by 1 person

      • elspeth says:

        First ladies are so passé:

        Like

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Elspeth,

        I now have Aerosmith’s “Dude (Looks Like a Lady)” playing in my head.

        I’ll add the tweet you posted to the growing list of reasons me and Mrs. A are building a house on some land in the country farther away from Atlanta than we already are.

        Liked by 1 person

    • Elspeth says:

      Obviously we have no inside knowledge, but by the time a pastor reaches the level of notoriety and success of Stanley, there is probably a lot of margin for him to spend time with his family. My husband works a lot. A LOT. Not as a pastor, which is a special calling, but still. He makes a point at least every 3 or 4 months of carving out time for us to get away alone together, even if it’s just a place over on the beach for a couple of days. It is life-giving. And there is no assistant “[SAM’s job]” to cover him.

      That’s not to excuse his wife, because “better or worse” implies that there will be days when it feels like “worse” to you, but you’ve already vowed to stay, so buttercup just has to suck it up. You married a hard driving guy, committed to his vocation, and you need to suffer long with what that means.

      I only mentioned the difference between a small-time pastor who really doesn’t have any margin and a pastor at Stanley’s level because most pastors are pastors of smaller congregations — even though people don’t seem to appreciate that. Those congregations really do pull on those pastors more and demand more time. Women who marry those men need to be prepared for that because there’s more to it than just the esteem of being married to the pastor.

      Liked by 2 people

      • feeriker says:

        “Women who marry those men need to be prepared for that because there’s more to it than just the esteem of being married to the pastor.”

        The thing is, there are ministry roles for pastors’ wives that are not only legitimate, but, I would argue, essential. Who is in a better position to exemplify a “Titus 2 wife” than a pastor’s wife, especially if she’s an older woman? Who better to mentor the younger women of the church? Yet so very few are of this type. Indeed, most seem to be the “anti-Titus 2 wife.” An epic fail on the part of the modern church.

        Liked by 3 people

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        E – You’re right. Small pastor’s have not support staff to help with the load. They have to carry all the burden of the congregants and also handle a lot of the administration required to run a church. Our church was a church plant and the lead pastor was stretched thin. His life has become more focused on lead pastor work as we’ve added support staff to help giving him more margin.

        The more we dive into the Stanley’s marriage the less impressed I am with Mrs. Stanley. It would appear that there is evidence that her faith was not strong enough to overcome her “feelz”.

        Like

      • Elspeth says:

        We’re at a church where I am actually older than 2 of the elders’ wives and close in age to a third. These younger (late 30s) wives — unlike most young mothers today, honestly — are hungry to hear what we longer married, further along in motherhood wives have to say.

        There are some limitations to what a pastor’s wife — who is mothering young kids — can do. And that’s okay. Their most important job right now is to be as helpful and supportive to their husbands as possible, and mother their children well. It’s a pitfall of having young pastors, but there are some definite benefits as well; zeal for the truth being a primary advantage.

        In the two years we’ve been there for instance, we have never heard a woman speak during a worship service. Not an announcement, nothing. I am not sure if anyone is even aware anymore of how rare that it is, but it tells me the Lord landed us in the right place. 🙂

        Liked by 4 people

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