A personal testimony from Jack.
Readership: Men
Theme: The Snares of Sin
Length: 650 words
Reading Time: 3 minutes
Introduction
In the comments under the previous post, P0rn is Faux Validation (2023/2/17), the question arose about how p0rn and premarital sex affects one’s view of women. I challenged LastMod to answer this question for himself, but he has not yet offered an authentic response based on his own introspection. In the interest of authenticity and philosophical integrity, I feel obligated to answer this question about myself.
Effects of P0rn and Pulling Peen
Jack wrote,
“I can’t help but wonder how much p0rn affected your views of women and how that has impacted your relationships with them.”
To answer my own question, I was practically addicted to beating off from the ages of 14-26. I didn’t always use p0rn (it was hard to get), but I often used images of beautiful, scantily clad women. IMO, the overall effect is basically the same because both indulge Lust. In my estimation, spanking the monkey / p0rn increased my expectations of and standards for women to the realms of fantasy. It also kills Masculine Presence and Charisma. Because of all this, and the relaxed attitude that flogging the log tends to produce, this prevented me from capitalizing on real life opportunities with women during that crucial time period of my life.
Effects of Illicit Sex
LastMod wrote,
“I can’t help but wonder how much pre-marital sex affected your views of women and how it impacted your relationships with them.”
To answer LastMod’s question, I didn’t have sex until I went to Taiwan at the age of 32. It wasn’t my intention in going there, but after I arrived I was overwhelmed by all the IOIs and respect I received from women, which I had never experienced in the U.S. After that, the way I viewed women became more aligned with Red Pill lore, although I didn’t understand the whys and hows until after I took the Red Pill many years later. I got married within a year because I believed fornication was wrong (I essentially Ran the Gauntlet), but this turned out to be an insufficient reason and purpose for getting married. My first marriage was catastrophic.
The Larger Lesson
The more important thing I’ve learned is that one cannot have the opportunity to enter into a Godly relationship with a woman as long as one is in bondage to Lust, either through p0rn and jerking off or illicit sex. This is for (at least) three reasons.
- One cannot attract a godly woman into his life. In the case of p0rn and masturbation, decent women can sense the complacency and spiritual darkness and are repelled. In the case of illicit sex, women are attracted like flies on sh!t, but these women are, for the most part, emotionally broken, dysfunctional, and immoral.
- One cannot identify women who are properly suitable for marriage and make a good choice of a wife because of the lack of discernment and spiritual blindness that Lust produces.
- I suspect that God is opposed to allowing it.
Longitudinal Effects
Overall, I feel sad about all of this, because for many years I just couldn’t find a way to get past my inability to handle this area of my life. And it has come at a cost. Prayer and Bible study made little difference, largely because of my lack of spiritual discernment. Periods of abstention (lasting up to 2 months) brought a little more clarity, but didn’t help me escape the deeper problem overall. For a long time, I thought this problem would go away or become more manageable if I got married, only to discover after marriage (too late!) that it makes little difference. It just becomes more complicated.
I also feel sad because now I have to live with the consequences of being in bondage to Lust, especially during my earlier years, but most of my life actually, i.e. not feeling loved and appreciated, not being able to attract nor identify a woman worthy of marriage, being divorced, having a broken family, a contentious second marriage, etc.
Lust will kick your @ss!
I need to write another post about How I broke free from the Sin of Lust.
Related
- Σ Frame: Yes, Women Lust Too (2019/12/6)
- Σ Frame: The Young Man’s Problem (2022/2/4)
- Σ Frame: A blinding obsession (2022/4/15)
- Σ Frame: A Clarification on Fornication (2022/4/16)
- Σ Frame: The 13 Harbingers of Masculine Doom (2022/9/7)
- Σ Frame: Sitting on the Fence (2022/9/26)
- Σ Frame: The Wages of Sin are Paid in Marriage (2022/10/15)
- Σ Frame: Lust (2023/2/10)
- Σ Frame: P0rn is Faux Validation (2023/2/17)
Σ Frame 
Anything that makes porn and its equivalents hard to access. I am in favor of.
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Posted elsewhere but more relevant here.
A comment found under this video.
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I’m curious why you think your experiences with Taiwanese women aligned you with Red Pill? And what particularly made those Taiwanese women broken and dysfunctional? We are led to believe that Asian women are a cut, or several cuts, above western women. My own experience with a South Asian woman was top tier. What broke us apart was her overbearing family.
I masturbated quite a lot as a teen, not to porn, to my own imagination. Had a great dating life in my twenties, no regrets. I wasn’t a player, more of a boyfriend type, had a lot of fun and made great connections with great women. Fell in love, got married, got divorced (because of her family, not her) and now I’m dating again. I’m more mature, as are the women I’m dating and so far, so good. I guess I just know how to choose well? I also go into every interaction with a positive attitude and no expectations. I’m not necessarily looking to marry again. Just seeing what’s out there. There are good people out here, even in the decadent west.
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AMD,
I got a first hand glimpse of female behaviors, for example, autorejection, branch swinging, hypergamy, quick to bail out or divorce, secrecy, women’s preference for serial monogamy, and so on. You know, AWALT, including other cultures. I wasn’t Red Pilled at that time, so I thought it was all craziness. It didn’t make sense until I took the Red Pill later on. While I was in the states, I didn’t see any of that because (1) women weren’t that open to me, (2) I wasn’t sexually active, (3) nor was I in the top 10%.
There are broken, dysfunctional people in every culture. But the way you phrased the question makes me think you’re schmoozing the contexts of my statements in the OP. I mean to say, men who are given to lust tend to attract broken dysfunctional women, and even if there are some decent women in the mix, he would not be able to identify them. But also, foreigners are considered “exotic”, and tend to attract those types too. Just as it is in the U.S., high class, high quality women don’t date foreigners (unless they’re exceedingly rich or famous).
For the most part, yes. On the average, Asian women are thinner, more authentic, more considerate, more feminine, more polite, and more respectful towards men. It’s because of the culture.
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I suppose that explains my success then. I was happy to be the serial boyfriend.
I will push back here. My own ex-wife was a high class, high quality woman who married a foreigner, me. Beyond that anecdote, due to my exposure to her culture both in her homeland and in the diaspora I have seen several couples where high quality women married foreigners. In fact that’s almost all I’ve seen since Indian men in the USA tend to trend highly educated, highly employed and marriage minded, they attract the same type of women here. I know there’s a hue and cry over Indian men being the least desirable and for the most part that may be true, but people would be surprised how many I’ve met with western wives of equal socio-economic status to them. Then you’ve got the Muslim male diaspora and they are able to attract women who, at least by their metrics, are high quality in that they reject their native western hedonism in exchange for a hyper religious life. If we’re judging solely by looks and overt sexual appeal, the popular hot babes reclining on American beaches with pina coladas in hand may not be flocking to Abdul and Vikram but some of the religiously inclined girls and STEM graduates are.
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Confusing. So you’re dating but not having sex with these women. And don’t want to marry them. But you’re not a player. But they are great people. And you don’t watch p0rn.
There’s an army of women out here looking for free dinner dates and no sex.
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Yes, I’ve met a few. LOL!
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It reinforces what you already knew from health class in middle school when all the girls were so excited to hear the teacher tell about how many women he used to f-; i.e. women are wh0res. You heard them say it, then you saw them do it. Ain’t much more to it.
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What junior high did you go to? And nobody sacked that teacher?!
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This was in the early 90s so nobody cared.
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I was in junior high school and then high school in the early to mid 1980s and I never heard any teachers, ever, talk about all the women they used to f_ck. The most you’d ever hear about is someone complaining about their ex spouse, or calling some other students a$$holes.
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I’ve never been the kind of guy women throw themselves at… until I visited Eastern Europe in my 30s.
Fortunately, I was already married, so I had a strong incentive to keep my nose clean.
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The trouble is that being married would act as preselection which increases the opportunities of adultery.
And could act like a wife accumulating magnet in polygamous cultures too.
Whereas being single and never having a gf allows more of the same singleness for men.
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[Jack: Scripture verses cited have been corrected and completed.]
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@Aaron MacDonald
Out of context and doesn’t apply. It’s about rewards predominantly in the afterlife and about those who hear Jesus’ parables but don’t understand.
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I find it amusing when it’s said that p0rn presents an unrealistic picture of women. What is a realistic view of women in the US?
— They’re fat.
— Green hair.
— Covered in tattoos.
— Piercings everywhere.
— Mentally ill and unsure of gender.
Gee… I don’t know why guys prefer p0rn to these women.
My advice to young men is to travel outside the US and you’ll find out it isn’t like this everywhere. Get out of this country.
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Try yoga studios. Lots of fit, Upper Middle Class women with minimal to no tattoos and piercings. Tats and piercings tend to be a lower class thing. Still, one of my neighbors has a sleeve tat and she’s managed to get a ring put on it by a well-off, educated half Azerbaijani / half Pakistani businessman. She’s young, he’s middle aged, divorced with kids, split custody.
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It’s unrealistic because women want married men to forget sex ever existed. P0rn was much more mild when I was younger and harder to access. The girls I met out and about were just as big of freaks or bigger than anything I saw until my late 20s. They suggested things I never saw in p0rn. All of them wanted to have 3somes. A girl made me have sex with her on the hood of my truck at a outdoor event in front of the police. They started walking towards me. I waived. They waived back, smiled, and walked away.
The women in my town are generally attractive enough. I don’t understand the unrealistic beauty standards argument. Some suburbs in my town have very very good looking girls, piles of beautiful daughters all marrying for resources. We used to travel west in high school and the girls just got hotter and more plentiful. Like the 10 hottest in my class were average by comparison. I lived out west for a year and there was eye candy everywhere.
When men are getting punished for having sex with women in real life they are gonna turn somewhere. I’d rather watch p0rn than pay another woman child support for 2 decades. So would a lot of men. So would most women if they ever were punished for anything ever.
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From porn star to wife, mother, PASTOR, and now interviewee on the world famous conservative Candace Owens show. Who says women can’t have it all?
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So she goes from flagrantly defying God one way to another way. She hasn’t fully repented.
If she did. She will step down from usurping Authority over Men as Christ says in 1 Timothy 2.
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One of these women was an absolute 10 and became a female pastor. She just quit and went back to p0rn. From what I’ve seen, you’re right. They always can’t just become Christian, they have to become leaders and then take the flock down.
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The blonde woman in the video above went back to porn?! Candace just interviewed her.
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The blonde woman in the video is Brittni De La Mora (nee Ruiz), a/k/a pr0nstar Jenna Presley.
De La Mora’s facebook page under her real name indicates she is still actively involved in ministry and not pr0n. She last posted on her official FB page on February 7, two weeks ago.
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The pornstar turned pastor also did escorting. There’s a huge overlap of work in the sex industry. I was surprised that so many strippers also escort, though I shouldn’t have been. And then there’s this woman I know who went from being a stripper, to a Seeking Arrangements participant, to marrying the first guy she met on the site. She was looking for a genuine boyfriend but one who would pay her bills. He was on the site too, so I guess he was looking for a genuine girlfriend who he could pay bills for? LOL! Anyway, they hit it off and got married. She doesn’t let him pay all the bills anymore though. She started her own business (not sex work) and is making enough money to almost go 50/50, but he’s letting her build up a bank account so she has a cushion for her future like he does. She buys him expensive gifts though. If a woman is attractive enough and willing to overcome whatever holds her back and put herself out there, she can find someone willing to pay. I don’t see this play out for ordinary looking women. They are all in the 9-5 grind.
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I don’t believe that p0rn necessarily increases expectations of and standards for women. Today, just about every size, shape, age (younger and older), ethnicity, etc. can be found in p0rn. There is no stereotype for a p0rn actress or what they do.
In contrast, the pinup art of Gil Elvgren and Alberto Vargas which was popular with the GI’s in WW2 created a fantasy woman. But I don’t see any deleterious effects on the men who enjoyed their pinup art.
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Agreed. Humans throughout history have proven time and again that sex is basically like human dynamite. They have shown that they don’t know how to put it in context. They are either supremely suppressive and controlling with it, or they go way too libertine (I mean on a macro level).
It’s either Puritan or late Roman empire.
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Sex is either nothing more than a pleasurable bodily experience that one can engage in with the same moral engagement as taking a crap or it should be done by a married man and woman in the dark with just her v@gina exposed under black sheets and should only take place when a baby is wanted.
My ex-wife, from a very conservative Bible belt faith tradition basically told me that her parents had 3 kids and she was pretty sure they only had sex to procreate.
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Dude, you’ve bought into slanderous myths about the Puritans. The Puritans had it right.
Boston: Debunking the Myth Surrounding Puritans and Sex (2016/10/18)
Here’s part of a love letter from a Puritan husband to his wife.
Translation into modernese: “I’m really horny, I know you are too, and I can’t wait to get home and have my way with you.”
We need to stop slandering the Puritans and start imitating them more.
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@Eye of Sauron
Puritans started to get it right. But unfortunately the dysfunctions of the Manicheans continue to this day.
There is truth to the accusation of the perception that “conservatives” hate sex. Those “conservatives” in particular. I suspect the wicked sexual revolution was another way to help us get it right. And not switch to the exact opposite pole of dysfunction.
All of which is opposed to healthy, joyful, holy sex within marriage.
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Ok. I meant “puritan” in the more generic sense.
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Well Joe, those pinups affected their views of women, and those women had make-up on, so that also made them not “love and care for women” and this normalized them to beauty and gave them very high expectations about what is average right????
Childrens poet and lyric write Shel Silverstein (A Light In The Attic / Where The Sidewalk Ends / The Giving Tree) was an illustrator and joke writer for Playboy all through the 1960’s and 1970’s (the sort-of dirty jokes that that mag did get some fame from)
Shel Silverstein performed at my elementary school….must have been 1976? 1977? Barefoot, bellbottoms, guitar. He sang all his classic stuff and we all sang along with him. He also had a large sketch pad and he drew funny pictures.
This man was obviously a danger to all children and gave us boys at the time “unrealistic views” about women because he worked for Playboy at one point.
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Matt Walsh would’ve had a heart attack while screaming “Groooooomerrrrr!!!”
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Matt Walsh has written extensively about MGTOW, saying that these men “just need to learn game.” He was telling these men years ago they needed to “Just man up!” / “There are tons of great women out there.” / “Go out and talk to women cause they-don’t-bite.” We need to join his church because evidently his church is the most masculine, biblical church in the world. But first, we all just need to be born with good looks and marry at 22. /S
[Jack: Edited for clarity and readability.]
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I seriously doubt Matt Walsh has ever told any man that he “just needs to learn game”. But, if he’s “written extensively about” that, then you should be able to find at least a few examples. So, let’s see them.
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Well, here is the first, most recent rebuttle to Matt’s “shaming” of men and him saying, “If they were “just-like-him” there would be no problems.” The fact is, most men cannot be him, and if any tried, they “wouldn’t be doing it right.”
He used to have a blog, like this….. and there was a plethera of articles about how “MGTOW is for losers”, “They gave up”, and “Nobody with any sense should care.”
MGTOW.TV: A Response to Matt Walsh Shaming Unmarried Men | Live From The Lair (2023/2/13)
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And well…. this, and countless more:
Going Your Own Way: Matt Walsh tells us to “man up” about relationships. (2014/6/26)
Matt has “scrubbed” his past from his blog. Cause, you know….. wouldn’t want to be cancelled or actually called out. This blog from 2014 was calling men like me “losers” and saying, “Go talk to women cause they don’t bite!”
He gets a pass because he’s a Christian…. Whoops….. A Catholic and is good looking, articulate, and has something women like. He never had a nuclear rejection, nor problems getting dates before he met his saintly, virginal wife.
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Jason,
Neither link you provided had anything about Matt Walsh telling any man that he “just needs to learn game”, unsurprisingly. Do you actually have one link in which Matt Walsh actually tells any man that he “just needs to learn game”? My guess is that you don’t.
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Well, two that I have looked at have been “deleted”. No surprise there, being the good catholic that he is, he doesn’t want to be labeled with “those men”.
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Jason,
Uh-huh. Sure. Remember what Cameron said?
You’re doing it again. You just complained about loneliness.
Your habit of “making stuff up and putting arguments in people’s mouths” is one of the reasons you’re lonely. No one likes having that done to them. You know that, yet you keep doing it.
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Agreed and seconded. Pr0n’s deleterious effect on men is not that it causes men to develop fetishes for idealized body shapes. Rather, the problem is that pr0n elevates sex, and the sex act, out of proportion. It causes men to obsess about sex and attach too much importance to sex, the sex act, and the release that comes from it. They are pedestalizing sex, not the women with whom they’re not having sex and not the women they see in pr0n.
The way that men avoid pedestalizing sex is to actually have sex, so they can find out what sex really is.
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Well put. An implication of your point would be that pron is more effect than cause regarding the views of sex. It would seem pron gets blamed for causing conditions that are most likely preexisting. If this is true, pron is more of a reinforcing agent of bad habits, making it harder for people to overcome them and develop good habits.
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RPA wrote,
I agree with this, but it can be both a cause and/or an effect, depending on the individual man, his habits, mindset, personal weaknesses, and upbringing. For some men (and women too), p0rn is the thing that got them started down the wrong road. For others, p0rn keeps them locked into a poor spiritual state / bad habits / no discernment / weak Frame / etc. For some it’s both.
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Joe2 wrote,
Thedeti wrote,
I’m not really talking about fetishes for idealized body shapes or stereotypical attractiveness, beauty, or sex appeal. I mean, every man has a certain “type” of female he is most attracted to. (Maybe you could call that a kind of fetish.) The continuation of lust, p0rn, and wanking raises a man’s attraction floor, and at the same time he develops a weakness for that “type”. So whenever he meets that particular “type” of woman IRL, he goes soft, loses his sense of emotional detachment, loses Frame, and starts to idolize and wheedle her (which is a big turn off to her). Meanwhile, other women who are not as hot as what he’s grown used to seeing in p0rn, including those showing interest who don’t match his preferred “type”, don’t register highly on his radar and therefore go undetected or else are passed over for another woman of interest.
Also, there is another effect related to a loss of discernment. P0rn has the effect such that when meeting women IRL, he focuses more on her physical appearance, sexual appeal, and whether she can lure him into the groove of his idolatry (which was entrenched through regular p0rn usage), and he is less focused on those attributes and characteristics that would actually form a good relationship. Thus, bimbos appear attractive while the more suitable women go undetected or are passed over.
All in all, opportunities are lost. Anyway, that’s how it works for me. Maybe you guys are different.
Thedeti wrote,
I agree with this, and I’ll put a finer point on it. P0rn elevates the idolatry of sex in which sex and the sex act are seen to be out of proportion, unrealistic, and fantastical, and certain “types” of women (not certain women in particular, whether in p0rn or IRL) are pedestalized while others don’t ding any bells. IOW, the idolatry casts a spell over the man.
This works in theory, but the snafu is in the application. If we open that door, then it will lead to a tacit endorsement of fornication and/or prostitution. I guess this is acceptable for nonChristians who have not yet found faith and cannot very well be expected to adhere to moral law, but for Christians, early marriage is recommended (and that is another snafu in itself). Men should also be made well aware of the risks and the consequences for either route, Christian or not.
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Jack
Understood. But the disagreement was with this:
Again: The disagreement is with the notion that pr0n develops unrealistic standards and expectations for women. It’s not that pr0n induces men to be attracted only to certain types of women, or even that it makes men expect women to do certain sexual things. I don’t think that’s what pr0n does. Even if it does do those things, that’s not a prime problem for men’s relationship to sex or to women. As I said, the prime problem pr0n causes for men is idolatry of sex, slavery to sex, and men’s inability to master their own drives and desires.
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deti,
That is essentially what I’m saying. P0rn is idolatry. But I believe idolatry colors a man’s perceptions such that his expectations, standards, and even his tastes in women are altered.
Maybe, but idolatry is a prime problem for men’s relationship to God, and that will affect his relationship to sex and women in that way.
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deti: “The way that men avoid pedestalizing sex is to actually have sex, so they can find out what sex really is.”
Jack: This works in theory, but the snafu is in the application. If we open that door, then it will lead to a tacit endorsement of fornication and/or prostitution. …. for Christians, early marriage is recommended (and that is another snafu in itself). Men should also be made well aware of the risks and the consequences for either route, Christian or not.
For Christians, the answer to this particular problem is early marriage as long as it is something that works for both men and women. For men, marriage means sex. Everyone knows what I think – right now, this is an unsolvable problem, even for Christians. It is simply a fact that even Christian women fornicate with impunity.
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Actually according to yourbrainonporn.com and testimonies. Men who have sex with their wives don’t actually stop being addicted to porn.
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Early marriage is especially advice most specific to women. The pathway of career then marriage only best works for Men.
This careerism then marriage is actually another example of treating women as men. It’s perverted and wicked.
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A man can have a career in his early-to-mid twenties. Many do. That’s still early marriage.
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@Oscar
True. Women can and should marry in their early 20’s. And Men would be delayed to a certain extent but it is still early.
But that is most possible and feasible in prosperity.
However economic circumstances turning sour will mean more delay in marriage at least for Men. Which they can afford to do more than women up to a point.
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info,
I always wonder about statements like this, not because of the source, but because of the bias that seems pervasive against this particular trend of sexual sin verses the sin of premarital fornication, especially as it applies to women. There seems to be a disproportionate emotional reaction to men with pron use, where we see websites like the one you listed, but no equivalent femalebrainafterfornicating.com.
I wonder what their definition of “have sex with their wives” is? Does that mean 1x weekly and he’s still frustrated, or does that mean he’s begging her for a day off to recover and he’s fully satisfied?
Also, I’m still not sold on pron being the cause of all the issues that it is blamed for, such as unrealistic expectations. I am curious how they were able to isolate pron use with the issues described. Are there other underlying issues and pron is the escape? Is it a sign of weakness in that he has needs and is too afraid to go take his wife the bedroom? Or, is he just tired of rejection and doesn’t want to bother with the hassle of dealing with his wife and pron is the easier out?
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info says:
There is a segment of the Christian Manosphere Women’s Auxiliary that really likes to talk about this. And it might be the case for many men. But I know that one of the reasons God instituted marriage was to make a way of escape from sexual immorality. So I decided that I would faithfully obey God and leave the results to Him. Between joining a twelve step group and marrying a helpful woman, I have had years without porn. Before taking those steps I couldn’t make a streak last a month. The gap between “This husband looks at porn, so marriage is not a remedy to porn”, and a husband who doesn’t is faith.
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Good question. I have met women in couples counseling who say to their husbands with a straight face, “We had sex 2 months ago! What is the problem?”
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How old were they?
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EoS,
I know that after about 3 days in a row with Mrs. Apostle I will still notice a hot woman at the gym, because I’m a red blooded American male, but the drive does not kick in the same way. A good way to think about it is feeling satiated verses being hungry. Being satiated makes the drive much more manageable.
My hypothesis is that sexual satisfaction, both in frequency and quality, and pron use are inversely correlated. If only the bible could give us clarity on the specific course of action men and women should take to help mitigate the temptation of sexual immorality.
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Fasting. Fasting and prayer. Prayer means meditation. There are meditation techniques. These are learned under the guidance of elders well practiced in these for years, decades. You have to get the right kind of fellowship. Attending churches where the pastors are constantly talking about sex, advising from the pulpit various sexual techniques, and making people feel guilty for not doing those, like they are missing out if they don’t, that’s not Christian fellowship.
I even recommend Christians to do a vipassana retreat. You don’t have to follow the meditation techniques of the instructor. It’s silent so you can mentally say the Rosary or the Jesus Prayer instead. Or something else, like reciting Bible verses. The point is to get the silent retreat experience and to get a Christian meditation practice going daily in your life.
In other countries Christians have more of a holy, even mystical vibe. Here in the USA (assuming that’s where you are, maybe I’m wrong) Christians often have a worldly and sex obsessed vibe. It doesn’t have to be that way.
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AMD,
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Ok, ok, ok. The point?
Fasting
Prayer
Meditation
Vipassana retreat
But beware: The more “right you get with God” the less desire for sex you will have. So if you’re married, unless your spouse is on the same program, there will be trouble.
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NYT says lonely people just need to have more sex.
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The same rag that told us: Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, if Trump is elected, he will push the button and start nuclear war, lied to us about Vietnam and also lied about Nixon (tons of CIA involvement with Watergate, that just came out). Lied about inflation, smeared countless people over the decades, and also gave us horrible reviews of movies and shows for decades
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32 is very delayed for first time sex, and my guess is it had more impact on development than any of the rest of it.
It’s way easier to master passions if you realize that sex is not the end-all / be-all of human existence somewhere around your late teens. Maybe early 20s.
I have had some discussions off line with some other posters about this lately.
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The problem is, though, that the only way to do this is to actually have sex so that you know it from experience. It’s not enough just that you’re hearing this from other people who have already had sex. It’s not enough to hear, “I’ve done this activity that everyone considers essential to the human condition; but you don’t need to do this activity because it’s not the end all be all of human existence. You don’t need to do this; you just need to hear me and believe me.” That’s not enough — not for men.
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Exactly. You said it in a way that I could not put to print.
In church, hanging with guys saying, “Oh, it’s not a big deal”, and yet they are the ones who can’t stop talking about it.
Women telling men for a few generations, “It’s not you, it’s me.” / “Someday a great gal is gonna come into your life.” / “You’re fine. I just don’t like you that way.” / “Keep trying. Women dont like quitters!”
And in church, I heard THIS from women:
“If you just don’t try anymore or give up, it shows us christian gals that you will give up on us if times get hard. We want a man who is trying and improving and becoming the man God wants him to be.”
Assuming of course that women are “okay as they are” and then told, “You have to wait on God.” and “God decides.”
From my fellow brothers in the church who were married, “Too bad, you have to burn, but did you know that if you ask God for a wife and He doesn’t deliver, you are not asking right or doing it for selfish reasons.”
But when THEY got married or dating, oh, no, no, no. It’s “God gave me a sex drive and marriage is gift.” / “I have to take action… and if I mess up, you know… slip it in, Jesus will forgive me.”
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And then to be down on himself for porn, masturbation, and having sex as an adult when finally being shown interest. He paints himself as some sort of sex addict when in actuality he was a very self controlled celibate virgin until middle age. Unless there’s something else he didn’t mention.
Jack my brother, if all of what you’re “guilty” of is what you wrote here, don’t be so down on yourself. Maybe you were more cut out to be a monk than a married man.
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If sex isn’t a big deal to men then there’s not really a reason to have relationships with women. It’s the last thing on the table. If I want something good to eat I’ll make it myself or go out to eat. I’m not gonna find a woman or hit up an ex because they can’t or won’t cook. If I want my house clean I will get a maid or do it myself. Women don’t do it without complaining. If u have kids with them they really are her kids and she’s allowing u to stay in their life out of her own good will. Bless her heart.
If single men give up on their sexual desires they are giving up on women. That was the last of the 4 primary things she was gonna do for you. We gave up on the other ones so long ago none of us remember.
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locust,
I picked this idea up reading a comment years ago and it stuck with me. If it weren’t for sex, men would have nothing to do with women. It’s just that much easier to be around your guy buddies long term.
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My ex was from India and she was a great cook, taught me, and I became a great cook too. We cooked together, since neither of us needed the other to cook for us but we both enjoyed cooking together.
Everyone living in a house should clean it.
We spoke about how great it would be to have kids but it never happened.
Point is: there are still great partnerships of men and women out here. Nobody here might have one (at least I used to) but they do exist. And going by my mid-life “second time single” dating life, I think I could have that again if I wanted to.
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I have cooked since I was 10. In fact I cooked so much as a kid I was better when I graduated highschool than now. Now my cooking is kind of stuck in the mud. I don’t have my family to cook for and that limits how much you can do. For instance, I would make doughnuts and waffles from scratch and fried chicken and it’s too much for 1 guy to eat. Too much mess also. If I have a wife I’ll have a house wife and I won’t clean up the house period. Also I would expect home made food almost every day. Women aren’t coming in my life and taking my male responsibilities. And I’m not going to get in the way of their female responsibilities. Equal partnerships don’t exist.
It’s looking like I will b building my own home this year. If a girl moves into my life and tells me to clean the house after I built and paid for it and she doesn’t have a job she’s going to leave. Most women will say that’s why they want a job — so they don’t have to submit. That’s not an option for me nor do I think it’s a good idea for any man. They can find a desperate simp anywhere.
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There was a period when my wife couldn’t work legally here. During the week and since she was home, she was obviously doing more cleaning than me but the weekend chores were shared. If she cooked, I did the dishes and vice versa. I wasn’t going to sit on a couch on Sunday afternoon just watching her vacuum. I’m also not going to have someone do my laundry or clean up after me in the bathroom.
True partnerships exist. We lived it. We’d still be living it if my narcissistic in-laws didn’t descend upon our home like vampires. One thing they couldn’t stand was how in love we were and just what a partnership we had. They were jealous because their traditional arranged marriage was miserable.
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Sex is really the only thing a man can do with a woman that he can’t do with his buddies. Thing is, we wouldn’t be talking about women in this manner if they provided some value other than sex. But since that’s all they’re offering, you have to judge based on the qualities you see before you.
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The loneliness epidemic tells us young men don’t have buddies anymore. I think they’re thinking women will provide friendship and companionship for them as well as sex and that’s why they obsess over them to the exclusion of making friends? It’s harder to make friends past the age of 30, and it just gets more difficult with each passing year. After my divorce and I lost a lot of the Indian couples-friends my wife and I shared, I experienced a famine of social life. I still retained a core male friend group of my own but as I kept moving our contact became less. The last couple of years has been me settling in one area and building a local friends group. Without it I would be solely dependent on the women I date for my social life. And that seems to be what young men do now. And those are the ones who can get dates. For those that can’t, no social life whatsoever.
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You know, this is the best thing you have said on this whole thread / page AMD. There is a dearth of solitude today with men. I think this is where some of the rage or anger or resentment comes from as well.
You had through the 1970’s “supper clubs” for men. You had the Elks Club, and even “men only” apartment buildings / residential hotels for that crowd of men. There is no space for men…. and the Internet has filled that, but it’s not the same. How could it be? Even barber shops are changing. There was a lawsuit in Canada in which a Muslim barber (who is not allowed to touch women) was forced to give an angry lesbian a buzz cut. I’m seeing more and more women now coming into barber shops and saying, “Just take an inch off”, and of course she’s dressed to draw attention, and “She’s just-one-of-the-guys”, and men immediately simp for her. My barber in Fresno would tell any woman who came in, “I don’t cut womens hair” and ignore her until she left. I’ve been going to a barber every two weeks since 1989. I gotta write that book or screenplay about the experiences and stories and situations I have seen over the decades at the shops.
In the 1990’s when I was living in San Francisco, there was many a night when talk radio, and the callers to KFSO were my sole social life, and also late night programs like “coast to coast” with Art Bell. I had it rough, but not as bad or even half as bad as some of these younger guys today have.
How do you take a man who was raised by a single mom, a loser, raised on the Internet and smart phones and make him “into a man” at age 26?
Go to the gym? Just “buck up”? Just tell him to read “Rollo”? Ask him if “Jesus is his lord and savior?”
This man is not even wanted by the brotherhood so to speak. His attitude and poor social skills probably don’t help him either.
Its almost impossible to make new friends well into your thirties if you had none to begin with…… and especially at my age. I have some social skills and it’s very hard in my fifties.
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The only things men need women for are sex and procreation. That said, we want women more than we need them.
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This truism is what modern society, both secular and Christian, is going all out to avoid acknowledging.
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Off topic but interesting:
The Atlantic / Pocket: How to Hire Fake Friends and Family (2017/11/7)
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The guy has played the role of father to a girl for 8 years. The mother lied to her daughter and said the guy is her father and the guy is participating in the lie. The girl still thinks he is her father. That’s unethical. The girl has a right to know the truth.
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Off topic but interesting:
Aaron Renn: Purpose Is No Substitute for Public Respect (2023/2/21)
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I just read the same. I still don’t understand how the average man (such as myself) finds his Purpose or Mission in life that matters enough to give him real ambition and drive that is also over and above building a Godly family.
What I think I hear when this is said is that Purpose or Mission is mostly related to a man’s job, career, profession, etc. But these seem of little lasting or significant value, other than giving a man something to do every day instead of sitting at home.
I guess to Renn’s point, if there was both public and private respect that came along with it, perhaps that would help make it worth it along the way.
I dunno. Maybe I’m just thinking about it too hard.
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They give men standing with and respect among their peers. This is something unique to men. Women want attention and “love”. Men want respect.
Women receive attention and love simply through existence. The only way for men to get respect is to earn it.
Jobs, careers, and professions are primarily how men earn respect. This is especially true since getting married and fathering children don’t garner respect for men. Current Churchians and evangelicals view marriage and fatherhood as just “what men are supposed to do”, the “bare minimum” and you don’t get respect for just doing what you’re “supposed to do”. This is what the current crop of tradcons like Tucker Carlson and Matt Walsh and Ben Shapiro and Mark Driscoll and most other celebrity pastors are doing to men now: “You don’t get respect just for getting married and supporting a wife and kids. That’s just the bare minimum. That’s just what you’re supposed to do.”
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No one just “gives” men respect. Respect must be earned. The main way you earn respect is by distinguishing yourself in some way and in accomplishments and achievements. You are good at something. You get good at something. You demonstrate competence, skill, or talent, and in doing so you “make a dent in the universe”, as Rich Cooper says. You make a mark for yourself.
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When they’re young. An elderly woman who is showered in love and attention invariably spent a lifetime serving her husband, children, and grandchildren.
That others find useful, or beneficial. In other words, we earn respect by serving others. The key for both men and women is service. The difference is that we learn that lesson much earlier in life.
It’s almost like a joke that God plays on women.
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Watch this. I think he sums up what a lot of men are going through today. Jack, maybe you could write about this? I think these mental issues are what are preventing many men from leading fulfilling lives.
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When said dude mentioned, “How am I supposed to expect my dating / romantic life to turn around at this point of my life as a life long bachelor entering middle age; who has much dating experience as someone who could be my kid?”
Exactly. That is a hard truth guys like this have to face. It’s not fair. It’s painful. It’s not right.
But what of it? I mistakenly thought in my early forties I could turn this around. Easy right? Just be a man. Just go and talk to women. Pray.
Women view men in this situation as seriously damaged (while forgetting to look in their own shattered mirrors) and a “loser” because a woman will still date a man with a grip o kids from other women, and a man who went through a car crash of a divorce….. but a man like this? “Something. SOMETHING must be wrong with him.” If he was a life long “devout church goer who loved jesus-more-than-anything”, he wouldn’t still be in this situation. No woman wants another womans reject. None.
Again, we pedestalize women as if they don’t even go to the bathroom when it comes to these matters. It’s more about “what women want / what they need / what men need to do to get her to notice you / what books you need to read or not read / what hobbies or what career you should be doing (e.g. deep sea fishing and cliff diving in Mexico on your free time while hitting the gym, writing a book, and getting certified in HVACC on the side….) Why are you not doing that? Don’t you know women like this and this, and this in a man?????”
Its a shame. If this was 1972, he probably would have met someone decent enough for him and it may have worked out.
I dont have ASD, but the drug use probably has exaggerated some mild social cues and made them worse so that I cannot pick up on them, making me into a insta-creep…. because as we all know…
Looks don’t matter to women. It’s personality and confidence! 😉
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Off topic:
I am going to up to Santa Rosa for the weekend, to my stomping grounds from 2018-2020. I got a DJ gig. I’m one of the three DJs opening for “The English Beat” on February 24th. I decided to stay the whole weekend because it’s about a ten hour drive. Should be fun. I leave early Thursday morning, but I am going to be frightfully busy tonight and tomorrow.
I’ve met the band several times over the years, and I was very happy when I was asked to be one of the opening DJs.
I will see a few fellow Mods and Ska boys while I am up there. It will be good to reconnect! You’ll do well without me here, I am sure.
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This is unbelievably sad to listen to; and it hurts to think that many men in his age range, forty somethings, may be feeling this way about life.
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Mission really means family and church family. I am part of 4 church events every week. From volunteering to church groups, 1 large 1 small. I am trying to live a commission based life. I’ve had a family before. Now just me and the kid less than half the time. If you don’t have a family there’s only so much you can do. We’re not all called to b leaders of whatever group at our church.
It ends up with a lot of alone time. If I had a wife I would b more connected with church community. But being single proves my ability to connect on my own. Guys with families don’t have much time outside of work. They also have limited abilities because there’s only so much time they can and should b away from family. I can’t volunteer 3 nights a week if I can’t bring wife and kids as an example.
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Lastmod, the man is on the autism spectrum. I think men who really struggle in life have this or something akin to it like extreme anxiety. Either these conditions are increasing or they were always there but people just didn’t talk about it. Either way it’s not rational to expect neurotypical women to be with him. And it’s probably not easy for ASD people to pair up given the nature of the condition. Spirituality is probably the best way for these people to go but then that also requires socializing.
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It’s more common today for the fact that people are isolated more, and at tender ages, and the results… well, speak for themselves.
There is nothing wrong with him. The society around him is “wrong”. Back, even before I was a young man, they would call ASD or any of the related other syndromes a “personality quirk”. It wasn’t viewed as something that had to be FIXED by the age of six or you’re doomed for the rest of your life. People just dealt with it and got by.
Also, a man actually had TIME to build something with a woman.
Today, it’s all superficial, and the mating rituals have been boiled down into something like “Six Steps to Sex” (not marriage). First this level, then the next level, by the third date you MUST DO X, and by the fifth date you had better be doing this or that or else you are not a “Real Man”……… After talking to her for three seconds, you have to say this… Text back at this time but never that time. “Oh, it bombed? You obviously didn’t do it right. Sucks to be you.”
Even if you have ASD but you’re deemed sufficiently hawt, you could basically be a doorknob and a woman would justify your behavior as “He’s just misunderstood.” Otherwise you’re a creep, as usual.
Shrinks will tell you, “It’s inherited, and there is nothing you can do to be normal…. Take these pills for the rest of your life….. Oh, and women don’t like men who are on medications. It’s un-manly and feminine. Sucks to be you, but take the pills. All of them!!! Now!”
And fellow men? Lets not get into that, in most cases they treat other men no better than women do.
This guy is in pain. He’ll be okay in the end. He made it this far. What worries me is the comments. People telling him stuff like, “A great gal is out there for you!!” and “I was like this until I read this or that book. You should read it too.” and “You just like people feeling sorry for you, don’tcha?”
[Jack: Edited for clarity and readability.]
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caterpillar345 says:
Well that’s the point. According to Capitalism you’re not supposed to have an ordinary job and be satisfied with simply maintaining yourself in a decent way. You are supposed to find a “passion” and that passion is supposed to be financially lucrative, or you’re supposed to make it become so, against all odds, rising to the top and getting all sorts of fame and riches for it. That is what Capitalism sells as Mission and Purpose, as it’s Utopian Dream.
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There is no such thing as Das Kapital for Capitalism and prescriptions. It’s the result of distortions caused by Usury, Funny Money and so on.
I suggest you read Ludwig Von Mises on Capitalism.
Both the Ostensibly Capitalist West and Soviet Union developed in similar wars. Technocracy has similar results for everyone.
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Wasn’t there a book awhile back… small letter c “Christian” that said in order for men to have a great life they need: a quest, a dragon to slay, and a damsel to save…. or something like that?
Despite my disputes and dislike of Renn, he does bring some good points up in the article.
Per usual, the church could do something about this….. but that is “someone else’s job” and Aaron Renn’s church and those like it don’t want most men.
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John Eldredge, “Wild at Heart”
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Off topic: toxic masculinity strikes again.
The best defense against a bad man is a good man. Preferably armed.
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He’s lucky. If he shot an innocent bystander, he wouldn’t be a hero. He would be what responsible gun owners call “irresponsible”.
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When you can’t find an actual negative, make up a hypothetical one.
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I think sexless marriage (as well as frivorce) are often processed as moral injury, a concept which is related to trauma.
Essentially, when a man signs up for something — some profession, or institution — that he believes in, and that institution (or an individual member of it) fails to live up to the ideals or principles involved he holds most dear, he is crushed and demoralized by that failure.
The more psychologically invested he is, the worse the collapse.
It’s easy to think of a soldier who is let down because his lieutenant orders him to stand down from a clearly moral duty to stay in contact with the enemy, to stand and fight, because of ridiculous rules of engagement.
But how different is this from signing up for something and your partner basically has her fingers crossed behind her back at the altar? Whether it’s withholding sex or bailing from the marriage at the first sign of trouble, she is dishonoring something he thought was an iron-clad institution.
It’s no wonder men (idealists that they are) fall into despair from these instances whether they be on the battlefield or in the face of a spouse who has crapped on this sacred institution. A marriage without commitment and sex is not marriage for a man. It is permanent depressive episode.
Driven to soothe themselves with drinking, porn, suicide, or whatever is self destructive but totally understandable.
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On the issue of having a mission without also having the role of dad / husband / head of household.
If you have never had a moment like this in your life:
I’m not sure what’s going on. To set a goal in front of you and either accomplish it or die trying is something you can do with or without a wife.
Many of my most triumphant moments like this happened when I was single.
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That is a great movie.
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Every man needs to have a few moments like this in his life.
This is also one of the normal developmental milestones in a man’s life trajectory. If these don’t happen, then normal development doesn’t happen.
A man simply cannot live with repeated failure after failure after trauma after setback. He has to have some success, some triumphs, some “wins”. A man cannot live with all “losses”. There have to be some “wins” in there, or normal development doesn’t happen.
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Can anyone tell me which movie this was referencing? Seems this clip is blocked on YouTube now.
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