The Lie of Romantic Love

How should a man show love to a woman?

Readership: All
Theme: The Snares of Sin
Length: 1,850 words
Reading Time: 10 minutes

Rules to Rule By

In response to the question, “What responsibilities do single, marriage minded Christian men have with respect to women in the present SMP/MMP?”, Deti wrote,

“Come with rock-solid frame.  Be on task and on mission at all times.  Brook no dissent about the frame and no interference with the mission.  Look for women who show clear, obvious, unmistakable signs of sexual attraction.  Such women are invited to step into his frame and get on board with the mission.  The minute she flips any attitude at him about anything, she is sternly corrected, once.  If it happens again, he shows her the door.

Most of the time this won’t work. Increasing numbers of men will have to accept being alone and celibate for life.

I personally made every one of these mistakes.  I personally did everything wrong.”

The ironic and sad thing is that deti, like myself and many other older readers here, thought we were doing everything “right” at the time.

Rules to Love By

You see, according to the supposed “wisdom” that was prevalently taught to our older readers back in the 1980s and 1990s, men were given a playbook of Rules to Love By.  The rules were legion and supposedly Christian in nature.  The general gist of these rules could be summarized as follows.

  • “Good” Men should be “nice” to women.
  • “Good” Women are attracted to “nice” men.
  • Men believed that Women were kindhearted, loving, and romantic by nature.
  • Chivalry and preening consideration for women’s wants and needs was the polite norm.
  • Female hypoagenticity was presumed and fully acceptable.
  • Male hyperagenticity was proof of a man’s love and care for a woman.
  • The Feminine Mystique — Woman were seen to be mysterious and of a higher spiritual conscientiousness.
  • Men should maintain a positive attitude towards women and dating, even when nothing was going right.
  • Men were to presume that women had positive motivations, even when there wasn’t any evidence of such.
  • Men were to gracefully assume that women were caught in difficult or unjust circumstances whenever they displayed bad behavior.
  • Men were expected to “respect women”, which basically meant to tiptoe around her Feeelz. (This is different from men’s understanding of respect and was often misunderstood and misapplied.)

Nowadays, we laugh at these Rules to Love By, because we know it runs the Tingle-o-meter into the red, and shoos chicks away and onto the dirty d!ck faster than a simp can croon or a cuck can cry.

But for a long while after the sexual apocalypse, these Rules to Love By remained solidly in place for men while women explored the spanking fresh world of sexual liberation.  Meanwhile, in a concerted effort to prop up the feminine AF/BB strategy, women did a fine job of keeping the majority of men in the dark about all the slither-slather.  If a man ever discovered that the Rules to Love By didn’t actually lead to lifelong love and marital bliss, he was told, “She’s bad / broken / etc.  She’s not the one for you.  You’ll find someone better. Just wait…”  Meanwhile, all the Becky’s, Karen’s, and Stacy’s were getting their tickle kicks with Chads on the regular and the AF/BB strategy steamrolled through another generation, or two.  It wasn’t until very recently that all the Becky’s, Karen’s, and Stacy’s transmogrified into a generation of Ms. Havisham’s, and the men began to wake up and smell the overdue sardines, thanks largely to the Red Pill going mainstream.

Ye Olde Lie was Once True

In some respects, the older generations (Greatests, Silents, and early Boomers) were probably not lying to us in teaching these things.  Several decades ago (early half of the 20th century and continuing longer in Christian circles) this approach probably worked.  A man who acted in this manner was distinguishing himself as one who would be a fine, loyal, and caring husband.  Marriage minded women could then pick these men out from the crowd and move forward towards marriage.  But after the sexual apocalypse, this became a recipe for disaster.  “Nice” men who were clueless about the shifts in the SMP and continued to act in this manner clearly distinguished themselves as men who were explicitly marriage minded, just as before, but now this meant something completely different.  It meant they could not compete with Alpha Chad in the back seat of a Buick.  Thus, such men summarily rejected themselves from the gene pool.

Reexamining Ye Olde Lie

After writing a post on detachment, Ash Pariseau at Dames That Know came out to rebuild the old narrative that it is Women who are the romantics, NOT Men.  She writes,

“I decided to poll my audience.

Ladies, when was the moment you realized that he really did love you?

Turns out, there are many ways a man tells a woman “I love you.” Here are some of my favorite responses:

My first question is “What does she mean by love?”  Does she mean the woman came to trust the man, she felt humbled, and she felt loved, or does she mean that the woman realized that he was putty in her paws?  Perhaps both to varying degrees, depending on the man and woman in question.

We can’t really know the answer to this question, but judging by the several behaviors she lists of men, we see that they could all fall into one of two categories: 1) He’s desperate for sex, or 2) he’s simping.

“When he put my feelings first.”

“I was complaining about being alone and he drove out to make me feel better, about 45 minutes round trip, he had to be at work in the morning…”

“When he stuck around.  … he didn’t push and unlike the other guys who’d move on, he stuck around.”

“He was always there, and he didn’t leave.”

“When he traveled 61 km riding a motorcycle just to see me and went back home the next day.”

“When he waited hours for me outside my school and walked home with me EVERY SINGLE DAY.”

When he only [had] a dollar in his pocket and spent it to buy me food because I didn’t [eat anything].”

“I never asked for any of that from him.  He did it willingly.  Then I realized he truly loves me.  No other man can do it for me if they don’t love me as much.”

“Alex asked me how I was doing and I said I was fine just a little cold and after I said that he took off his jacket and gave it to me and that’s when I realized I wasn’t just crushing on him I was in love with him.”

“He stayed through my depression when I couldn’t even recognize myself.”

“He told me that just being in my presence made him feel at home.”

“The fact he respected my boundaries, didn’t pressure me into anything, and asked me if I was comfortable before he touched me.  (That was when I knew that he really cared about me.)

“The look he gives me when I touch his face or simply laughing.  That is a look of someone that is in love.”

Dames that Know: A good man is not that hard to find (2023/1/30)

Only one behavior shows masculine dominance.

“When he started using the word “we” often and referred to future plans as if it was a given.”

In general, Beta Orbiting and Chivalry appears obvious here, and we would classify all these behaviors as such.  But we cannot overlook Ash’s main point – that these behaviors made the woman feel loved – without first examining its validity.  So let’s hash out the differences between the authentic love that a man should have for a woman and him being putty in the pussycat’s claws.

The Deception

First of all, the key aspect that is left unsaid or only slightly hinted is that “she already thought he was hot.”  This should be remembered going forward.

The deceptive aspect of this approach towards women is that some of these behaviors, (e.g. assuming women are caught in unjust circumstances whenever they display bad behavior, being emotionally authentic, kindness, presuming positive motivations where there isn’t any, etc.) are actually ways that men can truly love women, just as we are instructed to do in Ephesians 5:25-33.

As Alain de Botton said,

“The essential habit of loving others is to have the willingness to interpret unappealing behaviors from others in order to find more benevolent reasons why such behaviors may be unfolding.  In other words, to love someone is to interpret their words and behaviors with good will, charity, generosity, and understanding.  So love is not just admiration for strength, it is also tolerance of weakness and a recognition of their ambivalences.  But we avoid this habit because it is difficult and risky.”

The sticking point is that such a display of a man’s love towards a woman is seldom returned in good faith.  Women only display de Botton’s description of love towards Tingletron Chads whom they are in bed love with.  Men do not avoid this habit nearly as much as women do, partly because men are the true idealists and romanticists by nature, and when left unchecked, this is the biggest problem with cucks, simps, White Knights, et al. — hyperagentically offering women so much unconditional love that it has the overall effect of spoiling them in a state of hypoagenticity, rather than bringing about the intended effect of making them feel loved and secure, and thus motivating them to grow into maturity.

Another point of deception is that Ephesians 5:25-33 ONLY applies to husbands loving their WIVES.  Now, to some extent, if a man is hoping to make a certain woman his wife, he would venture to treat her as such long before it becomes a thing.  The idea is that doing so may attract a woman in his sphere of influence to come under his domain of authority.  But it is a mistake for men to treat ALL women this way as a general habit.  This treatment should be reserved for those women who fall under a man’s domain of authority (i.e. wife, daughters, and family members).

The last point of deception that I’ll cover here is that men should NOT extend unconditional love to women as a general habit, in spite of how she might or might not respond.  Men should remember that the purpose of love is to exemplify Christ, and to grant grace and honor to the weaker vessel.  It is NOT to pretend that the woman is NOT the weaker vessel in order to let her maintain false pretenses, run roughshod over his life, and make a mess of everything.  Having such a boundary is the difference between a man showing Christian love for his wife and an inverted structure of authority.  Men should watch this boundary closely and guard it strongly.

Closing Statements

So we see that what is “right” these days is a long forlorn yelp from what was “right” over half a century ago.  I sincerely hope that the Red Pill and all we discuss here will be used to give young men a better compass for how to do things “right”.

Looking forward into the future, I can’t help but wonder how long our current revised assessment of what is “right” will continue to work.


About Jack

Jack is a world traveling artist, skilled in trading ideas and information, none of which are considered too holy, too nerdy, nor too profane to hijack and twist into useful fashion. Sigma Frame Mindsets and methods for building and maintaining a masculine Frame
This entry was posted in Adultery and Fornication, Agency, Attitude, Attraction, Chivalry, Churchianity, Conserving Power, Counterfeit/False Paradigms, Courtship and Marriage, Cultural Anthropology, Discerning Lies and Deception, Discernment, Wisdom, Ethical Systems, Female Evo-Psych, Female Power, Fundamental Frame, Game, Game Theory, Handling Rejection, Holding Frame, Identity, Inner Game, Intersexual Dynamics, Introspection, Male Power, Maturity, Personal Growth and Development, Models of Failure, Models of Success, Personal Domain, Personal Presentation, Power, Psychology, Relationships, Respect, Self-Concept, Self-Control, Sex, Society, Sphere of Influence. Bookmark the permalink.

96 Responses to The Lie of Romantic Love

  1. Anonymous says:

    Can you call this Romantic?

    “The Rape occurred in the early history of Rome, shortly after its founding by Romulus and his mostly male followers. Seeking wives in order to establish families, the Romans negotiated unsuccessfully with the Sabines, who populated the surrounding area. The Sabines feared the emergence of a rival society and refused to allow their women to marry the Romans. Consequently, the Romans planned to abduct Sabine women during a festival of Neptune Equester. They planned and announced a marvelous festival to attract people from all nearby towns. According to Livy, many people from Rome’s neighboring towns attended, including folk from the Caeninenses, Crustumini, and Antemnates, and many of the Sabines. At the festival, Romulus gave a signal, at which the Romans grabbed the Sabine women and fought off the Sabine men. The indignant abductees were soon implored by Romulus to accept Roman husbands.

    Livy claims that no direct sexual assault took place, albeit the fuller evidence, when compared with the later history, suggests a seduction based on promises by the Romans (promises which were inadequate, in any event) and then betrayal of those promises. Livy says that Romulus offered them free choice and promised civic and property rights to women. According to Livy, Romulus spoke to them each in person, declaring “that what was done was owing to the pride of their fathers, who had refused to grant the privilege of marriage to their neighbours; but notwithstanding, they should be joined in lawful wedlock, participate in all their possessions and civil privileges, and, than which nothing can be dearer to the human heart, in their common children.” This did not include the men being responsible for meeting the needs of the children.

    The Sabines themselves finally declared war, led into battle by their king, Titus Tatius. Tatius almost succeeded in capturing Rome, thanks to the treason of Tarpeia, daughter of Spurius Tarpeius, Roman governor of the citadel on the Capitoline Hill. She opened the city gates for the Sabines in return for “what they bore on their arms”, thinking she would receive their golden bracelets. Instead, the Sabines crushed her to death with their shields, and her body was thrown from a rock known ever since by her name, the Tarpeian Rock.

    The Romans attacked the Sabines, who now held the citadel. The Roman advance was led by Hostus Hostilius, the Sabine defence by Mettus Curtius. Hostus fell in battle, and the Roman line gave way. They retreated to the gate of the Palatium. Romulus rallied his men by promising to build a temple to Jupiter Stator on the site. He then led them back into battle. Mettus Curtius was unhorsed and fled on foot, and the Romans appeared to be winning.

    At this point, however, the Sabine women intervened:

    [They], from the outrage on whom the war originated, with hair dishevelled and garments rent, the timidity of their sex being overcome by such dreadful scenes, had the courage to throw themselves amid the flying weapons, and making a rush across, to part the incensed armies, and assuage their fury; imploring their fathers on the one side, their husbands on the other, “that as fathers-in-law and sons-in-law they would not contaminate each other with impious blood, nor stain their offspring with parricide, the one their grandchildren, the other their children. If you are dissatisfied with the affinity between you, if with our marriages, turn your resentment against us; we are the cause of war, we of wounds and of bloodshed to our husbands and parents. It were better that we perish than live widowed or fatherless without one or other of you.”

    The battle came to an end, and the Sabines agreed to unite in one nation with the Romans. Titus Tatius jointly ruled with Romulus until Tatius’s death five years later.

    The new Sabine residents of Rome settled on the Capitoline Hill, which they had captured in the battle.”

    Infogalactic: The Rape of the Sabine Women

    A similar Non-PC incident that also occurred in the BIble:

    Judges 21:15-23 (BSB)
    15 The people grieved for Benjamin, because the LORD had made a void in the tribes of Israel. 16 Then the elders of the congregation said, “What should we do about wives for those who remain, since the women of Benjamin have been destroyed?” 17 They added, “There must be heirs for the survivors of Benjamin, so that a tribe of Israel will not be wiped out. 18 But we cannot give them our daughters as wives. For the Israelites had sworn, “Cursed is he who gives a wife to a Benjamite.”
    19 “But look,” they said, “there is a yearly feast to the LORD in Shiloh, which is north of Bethel east of the road that goes up from Bethel to Shechem, and south of Lebonah.”
    20 So they commanded the Benjamites: “Go, hide in the vineyards 21 and watch. When you see the daughters of Shiloh come out to perform their dances, each of you is to come out of the vineyards, catch for himself a wife from the daughters of Shiloh, and go to the land of Benjamin.
    22 When their fathers or brothers come to us to complain, we will tell them, ‘Do us a favor by helping them, since we did not get wives for each of them in the war. Since you did not actually give them your daughters, you have no guilt.’ ”
    23 The Benjamites did as instructed and carried away the number of women they needed from the dancers they caught. They went back to their own inheritance, rebuilt their cities, and settled in them.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Jack says:

      Re: The Rape of the Sabine Women

      It is interesting that the abducted women submited themselves to the authority of their abductors rather quickly, even to the extent of defending them and risking their lives to prevent a war between them and their fathers. Obviously, this was ye golden age of ye olde Patriarchy. This would never go over in the modern age of hypoagentic feminism.

      Liked by 2 people

  2. info says:

    “Another point of deception is that Ephesians 5:25-33 ONLY applies to husbands loving their WIVES.”

    Which would occur in the absence of these verses:

    Titus 2:3-5 (KJV)
    3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
    4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to LOVE their husbands, to love their children,
    5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.


  3. What always strikes me as fascinating is just how powerful the Blue Pill list of Rules to Love By really is/was. In the face of all the data that was coming to my brain (demonstrating how things work in reality), I was still fairly accepting of the gameplan.

    That list is cringeworthy. Not because it is stupid on its face, but because I can remember employing some of them with real, live women in my past who were actually turned off by it. Women, who, had I just allowed my inner “chad” or whatever to behave naturally, I would have had WAY more success than I did.

    The ability of narratives to short circuit natural instincts is nothing short of amazing.

    On the other hand, every time I just jettisoned those rules and did what came naturally, I did just fine.

    This is the value of such a post. It reminds me of one of the interventions of DBT (dialectical behavior therapy). This modality, designed by Marcia Linehan was specifically targeting BPD. One of the interventions, “opposite action” is so powerful, it’s uncanny how well it works.

    It’s exactly what it sounds like. What is you first instinct? Do the exact opposite.

    So, a BPD who wants to pick a fight with her husband because he is leaving on a totally innocent and legitimate business trip should instead wrap her arms around him, smile softly, and kiss him goodbye, and tell him to drive carefully.

    Likewise, and somewhat in reverse, a man endowed with even the slightest masculine / natural Alpha male traits, when faced with a woman who is (doing anything, really) should ask himself, “What would my dad / Blue Pill conditioning / elders at church / country song tell me to do?” And then do the exact opposite.

    Most of this is heritable / genetic expression, but armed with the knowledge that you have had ALL the masculinity conditioned out of you, it might be possible to reverse some of the outcomes. But you (we) have to get a hold of these boys very young. Luckily, I had a few voices telling me the opposite — namely my best friend Robert and one of my more cynical slightly dark triad brothers, Rick.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Oscar says:

      “What is you first instinct? Do the exact opposite.”

      That reminds me of Opposite George.

      “So, a BPD who wants to pick a fight with her husband because he is leaving on a totally innocent and legitimate business trip should instead wrap her arms around him, smile softly, and kiss him goodbye, and tell him to drive carefully.”

      That reminds me of Mr. Incredible’s training montage.

      Liked by 3 people

    • Jack says:

      “What always strikes me as fascinating is just how powerful the Blue Pill list of Rules to Love By really is/was.”

      As I mentioned in the OP, in some contexts, some of these things are truly ways men can love women. Young people, especially men who “love idealistically” (H/T Rollo), were sold on the dream of a “love utopia”. The problem is when it is employed out of proper context. For love to be properly implemented, women need to be shown or made aware of their need for love and grace BEFORE it is dispensed, and NOT just freely handed out, modus operandi. That’s cheap grace, and it enables immaturity to continue and fosters lawlessness.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Back in the early 90s, I listened to Dennis Prager pretty much every day. I was still in LA at the time, and married, and a blue pilled Christian “conservative.” He was on every day from 9-noon on KABC.

        The messaging on what women wanted was pretty heavy-handed. One female caller I remember so vividly. She called in to tell Dennis (and his tens of thousands of listeners) that what was really a turn on was a man who had a job, responsible, was good with kids, was not addicted to anything, and was not-violent.

        We (the colloquial “we”) all bought that hook, line and sinker. Probably many, if not most of the men over 35 who read and write here today.

        I was already married, and at the time very happily married. And I thought, “Geez. I can name 100 single guys like that. Why are they having such a hard time with this?”

        Deep down, I knew, but couldn’t confront that the answer was “If she already thinks you are hot.”

        I should have known this because I had no problems getting laid WAY before I had a steady job, or was “good with kids” or “responsible” and so on. My wife married me, at least in part, because I was a “carnal Christian” who smoked, was in a rock band, was not a virgin, and her parents hated me. Guess what? Chicks are into that. Even Christian ones.

        Just wearing your “walking around and looking at the world” glasses should have taught us differently. But when you hear a nice-sounding lady on the radio saying she just wants a nice guy with a job, all of the data coming in from other sources goes out the window.

        Liked by 4 people

      • Even Hollywood filmmakers, who are supposedly part of the “Cathedral” were telling us how stupid these ideas were.

        Legends of the Fall (1995) – Sweet-natured upstanding gentleman son of retired army Colonel brings his girlfriend home from college. She finds the brother (Brad Pitt) much hotter and sleeps with him instead. The three brothers go off to war, nice guy brother dies in battle, Brad Pitt basically pumps and dumps her. Oldest brother who has been simping for her the whole time finally convinces her to marry him after he becomes a successful businessman and politician. As an alpha widow, many years later, still pining and scorned over being rejected by Pitt, she kills herself because she would rather be dead than trapped married to a rich beta.

        The Horse Whisperer (1998) – Woman married to nice guy rich NY lawyer, takes her daughter’s psychologically damaged horse to Montana where she meets mysterious, brooding, wounded-by-divorce tough cowboy, falls in love with him and most likely divorces rich nice guy lawyer so she can chase tingles in Montana.

        …and so on.


      • I just thought of how funny it would be if those were the official synopses/movie descriptions like on the streaming sites.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Oscar says:

        There’s also The Bridges of Madison County.

        Here’s my description of Legends of the Fall. Poisonous woman who destroys entire family of men in early-20th-century Montana plays the bewildered victim.


      • thedeti says:

        “Just wearing your “walking around and looking at the world” glasses should have taught us differently. But when you hear a nice-sounding lady on the radio saying she just wants a nice guy with a job, all of the data coming in from other sources goes out the window.”

        You heard this from a nice-sounding lady on the radio.

        And from parents. Pastors. Teachers. Scout leaders. Extended family. Friends of family. Other girls.

        All of them saying the same thing: “Girls love nice guys. Nice is sexually attractive. Good grades, responsibility, conscientiousness, holiness, men who go to church and worship with lifted up hands and cry to Jesus — women love having sex with men like this!

        It’s all bullsh!t. All of it. And we believe it because we want to. We want to believe it because there has to be some value in how we’re living, right? There has to be some reason we’re doing this. Right? It has to work, right?


      • thedeti says:

        “Even Hollywood filmmakers, who are supposedly part of the “Cathedral”, were telling us how stupid these ideas were.”

        Except for John Hughes. He didn’t. He gave us Pretty in Pink, Some Kind of Wonderful, and other films. His protege, Cameron Crowe, gave us Say Anything (1989), the high watermark of Blue Pill conditioning, with he of the hoisted boombox playing her favorite song outside her home window. (If he’s hot, it’s sooo romantic; if he’s not, it’s stalking and criminal.) Say Anything was sold to us Gen Xers as THE way you get a girl attracted to you. It was “If you want a girl, you do it the way Lloyd does it in Say Anything. That right there is how you do it.”

        It was complete bullsh!t and we should have known it.

        Liked by 3 people

      • Oscar says:

        “It was complete bullsh!t and we should have known it.”

        It’s kind of tough to know that as a naïve, inexperienced high school kid.

        Liked by 3 people

    • redpillboomer says:

      “That list is cringeworthy. Not because it is stupid on its face, but because I can remember employing some of them with real, live women in my past who were actually turned off by it. Women, who, had I just allowed my inner “chad” or whatever to behave naturally, I would have had WAY more success than I did.”

      Found this out the hard way myself. Before I was a Christian and attempting to walk closely with the Lord, my “inner Chad” although not a very strong one, STILL worked well in terms of getting girls. I didn’t know why it was working, it just did.

      Then I became a Christian and a lot of that Blue Pill thinking came into play, you know, the “flowers and candy” mentality, plus courting and “saving it until marriage” like the church said, and then it was…. NOTHING.

      It left me scratching my head wondering why none of it worked? I was doing it the “right” way, the way Bible believing Betty was supposed to like it, all chivalrous and such.

      Fast forward a few years, “Betty” dumped me, ran off to chase the Feminist Life Script and sleep with Chad. Broke my heart. What had I done wrong? Betty was NOT supposed to be like secular Stacy, she’d been Born Again and had a personal relationship with Christ… BUT, she seemed to have more in common with Stacy than whatever church girls were supposed to be, aka “good girls.”

      Then God snapped me out of my Blue Pill frame of mind, for a season, I wasn’t Red Pilled yet, that would come many years later. I began attending a Christian singles group and because I’d been recently dumped, I was mad at myself. I mean like REALLY mad. Mad for being rejected, mad for not understanding what had happened to me, and mad for being told all it took were “roses, flowers, candy and courting.”

      The key thing was the anger snapped me out of it. Once I started going to the large Christian singles group in town with a bit of Alpha mindset going on, then voila (!), it all seemed to start working again. Here came “the Betty’s.”

      Liked by 2 people

      • RPB,

        You are a prime example of what I am writing about here.

        If we dispense with all the stress and anxiety laden lingo of “alpha” and “beta” the way Cane Caldo did, and just look at the attitudes and behaviors, we can backwards engineer exactly what happened to you and really, to me.

        Working with the raw material you already have is tantamount. Yes, some guys are objectively more attractive (sorry, Deti — I mean hot and sexy) to women. Just get off that dark soul crushing tangent for just a minute.

        If you were doing OK, then adopted a bunch of ridiculous rules from the conventional wisdom and immediately started failing to do to OK, can’t we conclude that the variance is at least SHARED with the stupid conventional wisdom? MAYBE, just maybe some very average guys are pretty confident, funny and do well with women, and not because they read Rollo Tomassi, but because they were already naturally like that and had it beat out of them.

        The issue, then, would be to ask yourself, “Where did I get derailed and how do I get back?”

        It’s just a fledgling theory. I am just thinking out loud. Thank you so much for your story because it tracks beautifully with my experience. It’s like a second data point. Not a huge N, but it’s something.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Jack says:

        Jack’s Theorem of Demographic Extrapolation says,

        For every person who writes an opinion or an anecdotal experience, there are 10 others who feel the same way or have had the same experience, but don’t bother to write it up in a comment.

        I’ve had similar experiences as EoS and RPB, but I reacted to it differently. When I was younger, whenever my inner Bad@ss Chad started to peep through the Blue Pill churchian conditioning, I immediately recognized the temptation and doubled down on keeping it in check. I saw it as sin / backsliding / worldliness, and I never imagined that it would lead to anything other than fornication. I never reconsidered this view until after I took the Red Pill. Now I am of the opposite opinion — that’s how Christian men ought to be.

        Liked by 2 people

      • To recap:

        I was doing just fine. At 23, I was at N=9, and had a lot of fun getting there. Got married to a good Christian girl who was primarily into me because of “light” dark triad stuff (and height and looks, I get it).

        I got serious, went to seminary, became good guy church husband, started treating my wife like a princess using Blue Pill techniques. By the 6 year mark, sex and intimacy had dropped off a cliff, despite all my simping. Go figure. The only time we did it was when soft dread appeared (by any random girl in orbit who was flirting with me).

        She got distracted by the school maintenance guy, rough hands, army national guard, tatoos, a little older, not particularly religious. And bam! “I think I married the wrong person” hamster stuff.

        Elders told me I wasn’t doing enough dishes and laundry and flowers and that I was neglecting her needs, blah blah… I caused her to run to the arms of another man.

        My instinct was screaming at me. “NO! That’s not how it works. She just got turned on by brooding, (and married) don’t give a fvck about hunky handyman, and she needs to turn back to me with hard accountability and shame. This is the part where you guys do your fvcking job!”

        They let her off. I was toast. Almost killed myself.

        Joined the army, got angry (just like you), and returned to (my) baseline. Started participating in basically hook up culture by, honestly, “just being myself.”

        Several years of that and some LTRs in between (with no “game” — at least not intentional) and then got married again. The rest is another story of being Red Pilled several years into the marriage.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Oscar says:

        “Fast forward a few years, “Betty” dumped me, ran off to chase the Feminist Life Script and sleep with Chad. Broke my heart. What had I done wrong?”

        It sounds like she did you a favor.

        For those of us who don’t have an “inner Chad”, the key is to have a clear direction, a plan to get there, and be working on the plan. Some women will see your potential, others won’t. Some will want to go with you where you’re going, others won’t. Trying to convince the ones that won’t isn’t worth the effort.

        And, of course, work on your LAMPS. Maximize your strengths, minimize your weaknesses, all the obvious stuff.

        Liked by 1 person

  4. thedeti says:

    In the final analysis, I don’t think much of this will matter at all. In the coming years and decades, most men won’t be able to attract women or have relationships with them. Most men will be able to get, at most, some illicit sex and short term relationships. Let’s be honest — this will be the lot of most Christian men. The sex drive is so incredibly strong that most of them will have illicit sex once or twice, and that will have to be the full extent of their sex lives.

    Most men simply won’t get anything, period, full stop — until they finally relent at around age 40 or so when used up women in their late 30s and well into their 40s deign to show interest in them. In the end, the desire for p_ssy will win out and they’ll give up and give in.

    Liked by 2 people

    • thedeti says:

      That said, even when they marry, they won’t get what they were promised.

      The answer from here on out is just that men are going to have to learn to do without. In most cases, for their entire lives.

      Liked by 1 person

      • info says:

        Now that many men are sexless and porn addicts. They are now pushing tr@nnyism on them.

        There is porn designed to turn those potentially dangerous men tranny.

        Also, the reason so many Churches are subverted is that there is big money behind those operations.

        [Jack: Something really dark is lurking at those links. Click with caution.]


      • locustsplease says:

        That’s the problem. Men mostly aren’t willing to settle down late with an older women because they have the facts and know they’re just walking into a sexless relationship. Either way, they will b sexless. Years ago, they didn’t have the information they have now online. Marrying isn’t giving into sexual desires, it’s giving up sexual options.


    • thedeti says:

      I wrote this at Spawny’s 5 1/2 years ago. I turned out to be more prescient than I wanted to be.

      Spawny’s Space: It’s going to get really bad for men (2017/9/1)

      Liked by 2 people

      • farmlegend says:

        Now that was a nice trip down memory lane, which led to another worthwhile Spawny’s post and a half hour of comment reading. +1

        Spawny’s Space: Cadder’s World (2017/9/5)

        Liked by 2 people

      • Jack says:

        Re: Old posts at Spawny’s Space

        At the time those posts were written, MGTOW was a relatively new thing and quickly gaining momentum. Now we see that MGTOW is the norm, especially for the younger generation. Back then, wimmin were deathly afraid of MGTOW, even though it didn’t affect them at all. But now we see many of their fears have come true. I wonder how many feminist women have hit the wall since then and thus blame Men / MGTOW / “The Patriarchy” for their current state of caterwauling, instead of recognizing it as the natural consequences of their own choices.

        Liked by 1 person

      • FarmLegend,

        That one from “Cadders” is really interesting. It truly does seem that MGTOW is a much bigger phenomenon, when you include all the guys engaging in it without calling it that. Plus the guys my age (Generation Xers) who are divorced and not interested in another go around.

        Liked by 2 people

  5. Pingback: Nobody’s Heroes 14 | okrahead

  6. okrahead says:

    Things that have changed (and romance):

    1) The ubiquity of pornography: the most I could hope to see as a kid was sneaking a peek at my friend’s dad’s Playboy/other generic porn mag. Today hardcore porn of every type imaginable (and some previously unimaginable) is at children’s fingertips 24/7 (“smart” phones).

    2) Mass consumption of pornography by women on open display (50 Shades of Gray, etc.). Women openly displaying their enthusiasm for BDSM porn. The year I was born, in the state I where I was born, having or selling a copy of 50 Shades would have landed you in prison.

    3) Men no longer work to compete for women; young men who still work now compete against women, and on an uneven playing field. As an aside, this is why I am not upset about tr@nnies kicking girls / women’s butts in sports. Women like to pretend, “Anything a man can do, a woman can do better.” Trannies destroying women’s records blows up that particular myth.

    The year I was born, pornography, abortion and sodomy were all illegal in my home state and there was no such thing as “no fault” divorce. Now we live in a Hobbesian society, where any attempts at romance are “nasty, brutish and short.” BTW, I’m Gen X, not a Boomer; which just demonstrates how quickly and radically things have changed.

    Liked by 3 people

    • thedeti says:

      Women love it when attractive men treat them like crap, use them sexually, and otherwise don’t take them seriously. Women very much enjoy rough sex with hot men… They enjoy pretty much anything hot men give them or do to them. Women will do anything, and I do mean anything, for hot men.

      Women (and some men) carefully conceal this. The men these women have sex with don’t talk about it much and women never talk about it. Women hate it when these facts are revealed about them to “lesser” men because it subverts most of their power and eliminates the mystique. Worse for women, it fosters dislike and disgust. When you find out women really aren’t more moral, more caring, kinder, and nicer than men are, it kind of dulls the sheen and makes them into little more than human fleshlights. But, then again, that’s not men’s fault — it’s women’s fault, because they’re the ones who decide to have sex with these men.

      Liked by 5 people

      • naturallyaspirated says:

        When a hot, dominant, high-value loses control sexually with a woman, asserts dominance, and gets what he wants, it makes her feel like a desirable object for that man. She has a little voice in her hindbrain telling her she’s irresistible, and he can’t help himself. (It’s where r@pe fantasies come from — the hunk who can’t control himself around her.)

        Ultimately, it’s about her feeling desired by a man who could get any woman, but he wants her.


    • Jack says:

      “Anything a man can do, a woman can do better.”

      I haven’t heard this since the 90s, but when I was a kid in the 1970-80s, I heard it all the time.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Oscar says:

        That’s because now it’s assumed. Just look at all the movies and TV shows where an older male character is replaced by a younger female character who is instantly the bestest evar at absolutely everything without even trying. The latest Star Wars trilogy is the most famous example, but there are many others.

        Liked by 2 people

      • caterpillar345 says:

        I love listening to the Critical Drinker rail about Why Modern Movies Suck. He just slices right through all the modern audience woke BS.

        Liked by 1 person

  7. okrahead says:

    Re: Women and their porn (esp 50 Shades, etc.)

    It’s really difficult to nurture “sweet romantic” emotions for a woman after you find out she likes being tied up and beaten with a belt, so long as it’s by a hunky billionaire.

    Liked by 2 people

    • thedeti says:

      Not “likes” it. Loves it. Craves it. It turns her on sexually.

      Liked by 1 person

    • I haven’t specifically seen a lot of the truly violent preferences, but being totally dominated, yes.

      Held down, hair pulled, called names. Taking, instead of asking.

      Don’t even say to a woman in bed, “You want to roll over?” (like to a different position). Just do it, no asking. Watch what happens.


      • Forgot. Usual caveat applies.

        Do not do ANY of this unless you are getting really clear signals that she is in the throes of passion with you. You will get #metoo’d.


      • Jack says:

        EoS wrote,

        “Held down, hair pulled, called names. Taking, instead of asking.

        Don’t even say to a woman in bed, “You want to roll over?” (like to a different position). Just do it, no asking. Watch what happens.”

        In his most recent post over at Christianity and Masculinity: Discussing sexual past history with women Part 2 (2023/2/3), DeepStrength addressed this phenomenon in response to a reader’s question. It goes back to women’s need for defilement and humility that comes through the sexual domination, as he and I discussed in a few other posts listed here.

        Σ Frame (Jack): Validation (2022/10/11)
        Σ Frame (Jack): Validation is about Losing Self-Control (2022/10/24)
        Σ Frame (Jack): What we’ve learned about Feminine Submission (2022/10/31)
        Christianity and Masculinity: More thoughts on the Validational sex equation (2022/12/2)
        Christianity and Masculinity: Discussing sexual past history with women Part 2 (2023/2/3)

        The “equation” for validational sex is still under development. I have a few things to add to DS’s latest revisions. Still working on that.

        I think the reason why these posts were not very popular is because men don’t understand how it relates to sex. It is really counterintuitive, especially for men who were raised under the Blue Pill Rules to Love By.

        As OkraHead wrote,

        “It’s really difficult to nurture “sweet romantic” emotions for a woman after you find out she likes being tied up and beaten with a belt, so long as it’s by a hunky billionaire.”

        But it is also as Deti wrote,

        “Not “likes” it. Loves it. Craves it. It turns her on sexually.”

        The thing that most men find very weird about this phenomenon is that this is also a way to show love to women. It’s probably the most impressionable way to do so that there is, hence the Sticky Tape / Alpha Widow phenomenon. See deti’s comment about this at C&M.

        DO NOT neglect EoS’s admonition…

        “Do not do ANY of this unless you are getting really clear signals that she is in the throes of passion with you. You will get #metoo’d.”


      • “The thing that most men find very weird about this phenomenon is that this is also a way to show love to women.”

        Yep. After a night like that, you feel much closer and connected to her for at least a couple of days. Then you have to reset and reestablish it. It’s all in good fun.

        One time I got..

        “When you were behind me with a handful of my hair, did you call me a wh0re last night?”
        “Umm, yes. Is that OK?”
        “Oh, yes. I loved it. More of that, please.”


      • Jack says:

        “After a night like that, you feel much closer and connected to her for at least a couple of days. Then you have to reset and reestablish it. It’s all in good fun.”

        I’m thinking that most (or all?) emotionally healthy women who are with a man they love, trust, and respect actually crave this kind of bonding and domination. Those who do NOT, have some sort of issue going on.

        — She’s been r@ped / traumatized.
        — She’s not truly attracted to the man.
        — She’s psychopathic / has an emotional disorder / etc.
        — She is egotistical / overweeningly proud / stuck on herself / etc.
        — She’s been roughly gangbanged (e.g. at a party) or rudely dumped after a rowdy ONS, and it turned out to be a bad experience, and it brings back those memories.
        — Other?

        Not sure about this though.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Could be. I mean, when you think about it, you BOTH have to let your guard down to be that unhibited in bed. You have to really show a side of yourself that no one else gets to see, truly naked, not just physically.

        And if it’s stressful, you are doing it wrong. It is truly a lot of fun. You are not actually going to hurt her.

        What I have been told each time is something like, “I like knowing that you COULD hurt me really bad, and you get pretty close to unleashing it. I can feel it right below the surface. Restraining it right at the point of true violence is the turn-on.”

        This is an amalgam over a lifetime of partners, of course.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Related to this. Elspeth used to share a clip on YouTube from the TV show “A different world” where the guy was being hen-pecked / sh!t tested by his fiance or wife or whatever. He finally loses his temper, and puts her in her place. Then she responds by throwing her arms around him with glee because of how he passes the test.

        I HATE this. I have to do it once in a while and absolutely despise it when it happens.

        The dominance in bed is way more fun, but I get the feeling they are related somehow.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Jack says:

        “I HATE this. I have to do it once in a while and absolutely despise it when it happens.”

        Yes, me too. For years, I thought this was just sh!t, NOT a sh!t test. It would have helped if I had recognized it as a sh!t test. Even so, I still HATE it.

        “The dominance in bed is way more fun, but I get the feeling they are related somehow.”

        The common denominator is that it’s all about male dominance and how it makes the woman Feeel. More specifically, if she IS attracted to the man, then it dispels feelings of insecurity and at the same time, creates excitement. If she is NOT attracted to the guy, then it increases her sense of insecurity and plays on her fears of failing to maximize her hypergamy. Women also take it personally as a sign of her having a low sociosexual status.


      • Joe2 says:

        “Do not do ANY of this unless you are getting really clear signals that she is in the throes of passion with you. You will get #metoo’d.”

        Definitely get the really clear signals, but she can change her mind at a later date and claim it was not consensual.

        I’ve read of many instances where the girl goes to the guy’s apartment, they have sex, and everything seems perfect. Yet, a few days later she has a change of mind and claims she was r@ped.


  8. Lastmod says:

    I agree with Deti and Scott. Scott mentioned this in his follow up Meet Cute video [now deleted] from awhile back…

    Scott said, paraphrasing, “……once you are off that trajectory, and by a certain age…. no amount of “game” or “going-to-the-gym” is going to help you in this area” (concerning a Meet Cute).

    I will add, he mentioned that he didn’t have an answer or solution to this, nor pretend to have one. He did say it genuinely “broke his heart” about men in this situation.

    With Deti, I agree with his above statements. The question for the church or members thereof / practicing Christians is this:

    “What are you going to do with these men who show up in this situation? Sing a hymn? Offer an encouraging word and then play the role James warned you about?”

    James 2:1-13 (LastMod’s paraphrase)
    “You in the fine robes… Here is a wonderful place to sit! Sit here! Welcome!”

    “Oh… You again? Oh, yes… you…. (ahem, cough) Sit at my footstool and just be happy for the fact that we are tolerating you…”

    I know “your” church would never do this. No church does, and yet….. here it is written in scripture. It was obviously an issue then, and it’s more profound now.

    How will these men be treated? Used for ego gratification? Shamed? Told, “Sucks to be you”? Expected to say a sinners prayer and then be “all better now”? These men that show up will need something to do aside from being lectured to, directing traffic in the parking lot, and expected to just serve as helpers to the married folks.

    I’ll never join a church again, that’s a given. I know how it goes… Just like in the past. I wasn’t welcomed, and when they found out I could clean….. It was “janitorial ministry” for Lastmod. “It’s an amazing leadership role!” (rolls eyes)

    Anyway……. This is where the work of true ministry comes in. If indeed the church is going to turn-the-world-upside down, it has to stop being a social club for marrieds. Aaron Renn is completely wrong about singles in church.

    [Jack: Edited for clarity.]

    Liked by 4 people

    • I’ve said it before. If I could magically make a nice, wife-material woman appear and fall madly in love with each of those guys (the ones who want it anyway) I would.

      The imperfect and cruel world we live in chews up people and spits them out for reasons that I cannot understand and make me question my faith all the time.

      Liked by 3 people

    • Jack says:


      “If indeed the church is going to turn-the-world-upside down, it has to stop being a social club for marrieds.”

      It can never cease to be a “social club for marrieds” because God is glorified in marriage (or He should be).

      This does not refute your point however. I agree that most churches are a feel good club for the happy healthy wealthy folks, and that people outside this lifestyle tend to be neglected.

      Also related to your point: Probably the biggest divisor in the spiritual life of a person is whether they are married and/or sexually active. It totally transforms the spiritual constitution of a person, and thus the spiritual needs of singles are totally different from those of married couples. This is the reason why a lot of churches have “youth groups” and “singles ministries”. However, the same type of lifestyle and clique discrimination happens there too.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Lastmod says:

        I thought church was a gathering of believers, whether they are married or not. If they are married, let God be glorified. I thought the sinner who repented had a host of angels in heaven singing praises. That doesn’t mean a church should only focus on singles, but it’s not the church’s job to glorify marriage, which seems like the only thing it does well.

        To give the reader some background on my perspective, I am speaking about the standard low Protestant church I have usually attended in the past. When I say “low”, I mean like the Salvation Army, standard Protestant Christian churches in the USA today….. A pastor in casual wear, a praise leader who has tattoos showing… The announcements focus on the children, married couples fellowships, and the new fundraiser for the church building program…… There is lots of singing contemporary praise music… In times past, worship was characterized by organ music, but these days, the church organ has disappeared from Methodist and Presbytarian services for the most part and has been replaced by a contemporary band.

        While in England, I attended a high Anglican Sunday service at Manchester Cathedral. It was the first time I had been to a service like this since my mothers passing.

        Lots of standing. Kneeling. Marks of the cross. I did find it humbling to be worshiping in a Cathedral that dates back to Henry VII laying the cornerstone here centuries ago.

        Compared to the low Protestant Church, I noticed some striking differences about the service proper, such as…

        All were equal before the Cross that was carried in the procession ritual (in which I will concede with Catholicism and Orthodoxy and even the Anglican church). The ritual of procession made my knees shake! My ancestors on my mothers side listened to these same liturgical prayers and watched this exact same procession in the 1500’s. It was a bit humbling. I could almost feel my ancesteral blood move in me. It was odd. Like it meant something, or stood for something…… despite it not being stated in the Bible of “how” to run a church service.

        The reverence of God soaked all the way into my bones!

        The low Protestant church doesn’t have that. Perhaps that is why I could never be a good Catholic, Orthodox….. or Anglican. I have my mothers copy of The Common Book of Prayer. It was changed in 1978 and it doesn’t “stand” for anything anymore.

        Maybe that is what I am trying to get at. If you just stand for families because it glorifies God…….. Well, just about any church fellowship can offer that. But I don’t like how the low Protestant churches make the service all about “glorifying marriage” because the church is (and always was) for ALL.

        [Jack: Edited and reorganized for clarity and readability.]

        Liked by 6 people

      • Jack says:


        I like what you wrote. That reverence is slowly disappearing from churches across the West.

        I need to reFrame your perspective on “glorifying marriage”.

        “…it’s not the church’s job to glorify marriage…”

        I wouldn’t say the church glorifies marriage. I would say it honors marriage, and this allows the glory of marriage to shine through.

        Also, not all marriages are glorious, if you haven’t already noticed. Marriages are only glorified when they glorify God. Scott and I explored this phenomenon before in several posts, and I concluded that it is the Headship structure in combination with a husband and wife who are spiritually obedient in their respective roles which allows a marriage to glorify God. No Headship, no glory.

        Your experience at the Manchester Cathedral allowed you to experience the glory of God directly. But for most people, they experience God through their parents’ marriage. This is the core reason why the Protestant churches honor marriage. But the thing is, people who had parents with a marriage that did not glorify God, or not very well, didn’t experience much of the presence of God during their formative years, and this has longitudinal effects on their faith. You expressed this yourself in your comment.

        “The low Protestant church doesn’t have that. Perhaps that is why I could never be a good Catholic, Orthodox….. or Anglican.”

        Liked by 1 person

      • Lastmod says:

        Okay, but that is not exactly what I was getting at, or trying to express.

        The “ritual” of that procession of the Cross through the aisles at that cathedral in Manchester.

        In Anglican tradition (which I was culturally raised in…. Episcopal… because in the USA, you can’t have a church that recognizes the Monarch as head of church and state……). As the cross passes, you gesture the sign of the cross. The women gently courtsey. Men bowed their heads as it passed. It didn’t matter if you were young, old, black, white…… married or single. The “ritual” was a reminder from a long ago age that all will submit to the Cross. That is what it meant to me. Now, the sword following, representing the Monarch, I did not bow to. Love The Queen. I respect my heritage, but I don’t bow to a monarch. It’s not my culture to do so. In the same event, out of respect, I did not take communion. I crossed my arms, knelt, and the Vicar prayed over me at the rail.

        In The Salvation Army, or most other Protestant churches….. prayer of course, and as usual, prayer for all the couples and the children. Families. No reminder of why we are in church. It’s, “We have a nice church family”, and even if there was a procession of sorts….. you can bet the children would be leading it, or the mommies, and of course some contemporary praise song performed by the pastors daughter, “touching the weeping face of Jesus” type of song. Then she would say, “Everyone rise and sing that chorus again”……. and again….. and again, and then sung with no music (a capella) and then another song led by the children.

        This ritual, this “silly tradition” in England just moved me in a way I had not been moved in a while. I thought about my mother. Long gone aunts and uncles with heavy Welsh accents. Grandparents. I thought about all these people here that I did not know and they too were being humble before the Cross and procession. It was indeed unifying. Something all did. I wish I could explain it more clearly.

        Were all these Brits in a good marriage that glorified God? Were people single? It didn’t matter because this ritual was for all under God’s authority. Not just this group or that group.

        I could write a book on what is wrong with modern Anglicanism, so this is not some puff piece on why it’s better. When the classic question about religious affiliation comes up, I just say I am “Protestant” (and that is more a cultural thing now than belief).

        Liked by 1 person

      • Bardelys the Magnificent says:


        You might look into finding a Traditional Latin Mass, or a parish that offers a Latinized novus ordo. The reverence you speak of is there in spades (including the very procession you saw — its origins are Catholic), and it’s largely the same Mass that’s been celebrated for hundreds of years. People there fight to keep the traditions, and as such, they are not fans of the current Pope. Go once and see how you like it. You don’t really have anything to lose.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Lastmod says:

        I know it’s origins are in the Catholic faith. Anglicans are pretty much preppy Catholics. Not exactly Catholic but not “Protestant” either. It’s more of a cultural faith tied to the Crown itself and many parts of the former empire. Henry VIII had such gall!

        Methodism came out of the Anglican church and The Salvation Army out of Methodism.

        I have heard about such Catholic parishes out here in California, but they are Spanish speaking for the most part. I might check it out.

        The Protestantism I did like and love was the aspects of having a heart towards God and a hand to man. No protestant church does this really….. It gets muddled then with LBGTQ++++++++++++++++ and other woke issues, and even The Salvation Army with its roots from Victorian England is ditching the brass band and the uniform in many areas. “We have to play modern praise or the young people won’t come.” (They’re not coming anyway.)

        IDK. I am not welcome in these “christian” churches — churches with tattoos, flip flops, pajama bottoms, and sermons about children and families.

        And I have not been convicted or worried about sin in a church in over ten years; and why should I? The big shots are sinning openly and it’s tolerated and allowed.

        My problem in the end. I have to “live” with my sin and the consequences thereof…. and everyone else gets a gazillion chances and has little or no fear of God, and honestly, I don’t think they even believe any of it.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Bardelys the Magnificent says:

        I sincerely hope you do seek out a TLM. They can be hard to find because the Pope is driving them underground, so if you need help locating one, let me know.

        “My problem in the end. I have to “live” with my sin and the consequences thereof….”

        If you find the TLM suits you, the next step would be to go to confession. Correct me if I’m wrong here, but it doesn’t seem that you believe you’ve been forgiven of your sins. God will forgive you (and already has) if you are contrite and take the steps to amend your life, which by all accounts you have. It looks like you are looking for others to forgive you, and not Christ. Confession will give you the grace to see that only Christ’s forgiveness matters. Once you have that, the opinions of others become worthless and you’ll be able to let go of the anger you feel for others who let you down.

        FWIW, I’m not trying to push you into being “Catholic”. I’m trying to point out to you some tools you could use to save your soul. God is in the salvation business, and if you’re amongst people who aren’t doing the same, then they’re not truly God’s people. Your soul is worth saving, and I want to see that happen for you. You’re very close, but you have roadblocks in the way, which I myself have had. They can be overcome, but not without Grace. Please look into the suggestions I have made for you. It can only do you good from here.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Lastmod says:

        I did think and believe I was forgiven at one point, and for many years actually. Then I realized I wasn’t.

        It was the hypocritical double standard that was used against me. That and the lack of decency and respect was unbearable!

        For them, it was, “But my own son / daughter….. Wellll, God knows their heart, and they didn’t mean to do X and Y.”
        To me, it was, “Oh… Jesus loves you, but see there are consequences to sin…..”

        For them it was, “He just needs some time to grow in love and grace. He’ll get his act together soon.”
        But for me? “Oh, Lastmod has a looong way to go. He hurt so many people!”

        For them, it was, “My son is a real man, loved by all the girls in the church, he just needs to know God loves him…”
        To me, it was, “Oh, you want a wife? Do you want to meet a woman? Well, you should get a better job! A Christian man HAS to be a provider of the upper middle-class American dream to his wife, so you made mistakes there too. But don’t worry, there is no marriage in heaven….”

        Meanwhile, “YOU, LastMod… Go scrub toilets for the rest of your life! And remember, Jesus loves you!”

        I was made to follow impossible standards and rules for anything and everything, while just about anyone else wasn’t. I saw sin openly rewarded in and out of church, and it was always people who were just “better” than me in any way. I was made to feel stuck and ashamed of my past while others were actually rewarded with more…. and I don’t mean “money” or that kind of thing….. Just, their sins were not as bad and Scriptures about being forgiven were used with them…. But never for me.

        It got to the point that I was living in shame, sitting in a corner within the kind of church that the Christian Red Pill mocks, and being shamed by all the women who had more than one sexual partner in their life.

        The realization of this double cross, to me, was completed sometime in 2017.

        I figured God just loves some, and hates others.

        I respect the foundations and what and who Jesus was/is, but I really dislike most run-of-the-mill church folks. Gossiping hypocrites who get to sin and decide who Jesus likes and hates. I’m not hanging around for that. I left high school in 1988.

        [Jack: Edited for clarity and readability.]


      • Bardelys the Magnificent says:

        I will reiterate my point that you are seeking forgiveness in other people. That’s an impossible task, because some people (maybe most?) will not forgive you no matter what you do. Yes, most people are hypocrites. The sun also rises in the east. What of it? We were told this 2000 years ago.

        You need to go back to the tap. God’s opinion of you is all that really matters. You are letting other people’s sins get in the way of you and God. How silly is that? I have personal experience similar to yours. You have a right to be angry. I certainly was. But you can’t anger your way to Heaven.

        If God has forgiven you but Tom, Dick and Harry have not, who cares what they think? They are not in charge of your soul. Let them go.

        Liked by 1 person

    • locustsplease says:

      I’ve only met 1 single young woman in my year of volunteering and a few in my 8 years of attending my church. All the men with great wives have 1 thing in common — it’s not because of good vetting, height, money, or looks — it’s because they are lucky, period. I am tall, physically dominant, respected, well known, and always a day late and a dollar short! My church is filled with attractive young women and the only ones I seem to have any contact with I’m not really attracted to.

      I’m not ridiculously picky. But then when I go out to eat dinner alone, or go to bars, I get hit up and get advances from women all the time. Good looking girls, 7-10s. At church, I would have to approach girls as very large groups who seem to have large established cliques — half of which are in the process towards marriage despite being with just girls! Or literally approach girls with their families. I’m not kidding! A few have shown interest, but I just can’t. All the married guys I know showed up and picked a girl from a pool of 10 or so. The end. I’m not even getting in warm approach situations and I seem to b losing relationship qualities along the line.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Oscar says:

        How old are you?


      • locustsplease says:



      • Jack says:


        I had the same sort of experience. I hit it off with pagan women and very unattractive women all the time and quite easily. But I could never catch an attractive Christian woman’s interest. It was very frustrating because I was marriage minded, and with that in mind, I resolved to only date / court Christian women. I was always deeply confused about this. As I grew older, I realized that I had trust issues, as I described in a previous post. More recently, I’ve learned that the unattractive women and pagan chicks were attracted to me simply because I never took them seriously, whereas Christian girls were NOT interested in me because I took them seriously. By “seriously”, I mean I carried the expectation that a relationship was possible, and this motivated me to behave like a good Churchian Blue Pill Beta boy, thinking that was the right thing to do, and that “God might bless me this time.” Needless to say, it also destroyed my confidence and sense of detachment, as EoS, RPB, and I described in another comment here. Looking back, I can see that I was too Blue Pilled, too rigorous about my churchian beliefs, and a little socially awkward, but at the same time, a lot of people thought I was a player / bad guy (probably because I was tall and good looking), and I can see how this may have caused some Christian girls to be doubtful about my intentions and hesitant to be closer to me.

        For example, one time I was talking to a pastor at a church I visited for the first time, and he asked me,
        Pastor: “Are you married?”
        Me: “No.”
        Pastor: “Do you have any children?”
        Me: “No.”
        Pastor: (dismissingly) “None that you know of…”

        This really stung, because I was still a virgin at that time, and I was not having an easy time of it.


      • locustsplease says:

        I had bad experiences at church until I came to this one. My cousin married out of town and I had to go b in his wedding. His wife’s brother-in-law was a pastor and he attacked me personally several times on the 5 day trip. I actually met tables full of very attractive Christian girls at my cousin’s wedding. I wasn’t a Christian and they all said they would date me if I was.

        I had more chances drunk at his wedding than in 7 plus years at my church. Who would have thought?


      • Jack says:


        “I wasn’t a Christian and they all said they would date me if I was.

        I had more chances drunk at his wedding than in 7 plus years at my church.”

        I’m confused. You were not a Christian but you still went to church for 7 years? Or do you mean those girls didn’t believe you were a Christian?


      • locustsplease says:

        The wedding was 17 years ago. I became a Christian about 9 years ago. At the reception, plenty of girls asked me if I was a Christian and I said no. And I wasn’t. South Florida, very pretty, early 20s, mostly Cuban women. Lovely personalities also. I’m sure they tried to preach to me a little bit, but I wasn’t having it.


      • Jack says:

        I think I understand you now. Becoming a Christian and going to church seems to have made you into a Blue Pill Beta, as EoS, RPB, and I described upthread.

        If those Cuban girls had shown you some cleavage instead of giving you a sermon, you might have become a believer 8 years earlier! J/K


      • locustsplease says:

        I probably would have become Blue Pill had I ended up with one of them. Then I would be saying, “Why can’t you animals b nice to women? I just go to work, don’t do drugs or beat her, and my little buttercup is delightful!” Most guys with great wives think this way.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Oscar says:



        Proverbs 31:10
        Who can find a virtuous wife?
        For her worth is far above rubies.

        You know what valuable things have in common? They’re rare and in high demand. Virtuous women are like that. They’re rare and in high demand.

        Now add beauty to the mix. Beautiful, virtuous women are even more rare, and in even higher demand. Beautiful, virtuous women tend to get married pretty young because, what man in his right mind would pass that up?

        If that’s the kind of woman you want (and I completely understand, I’d want that kind of woman too), don’t you think she might want a guy closer to her age, and who isn’t already divorced? And if that’s what she wants, don’t you think she can have it because she’s rare and in high demand?

        I’ve been making this point since Dalrock’s, but few will listen.

        Men have an expiration date, too.

        Sure, a man can keep screwing random 304s well into his 40s and even 50s, but finding a virtuous woman to marry who isn’t a reformed divorcee, former 304, or single mom gets increasingly difficult with age.

        I’ll tell you the same thing I’d tell a woman in a similar situation to yours. You probably have two options.

        1) Compromise on one or more of the things you want.
        2) Refuse to compromise and remain single.

        The bad news is that there are no easy answers at your age. The good news is that the choice is 100% yours.


      • locustsplease says:

        I understand all these things. And I never stated I was definitely going to get what I wanted. Also I said men with great wives are lucky period. Not good. It’s not because of their cumulative score after all positive factors are added. I’ve stated here several times these women get taken quick, young, and it’s about vicinity. My age is of zero negative effect except that I’m not in 20-something groups. I am the same age as our pastors but single.

        I just struggle to find the warm approach situations, that’s all I’m getting at. I’m not having sex at all, haven’t since I left my wife. The choice is not %100 mine. I’m just talking about my personal struggle. Women my own age hardly give me the time of day. I get much more attention from 18-25 yo women. The ones my age don’t want to get rejected and they would. Not just at church. There’s not some pile of single virtuous women my age at church. There may b a handful in 5k people. The women my age are married.

        It’s not like I’m ignoring hundreds of 30-something virtuous women to chase after a few hot young women. I’m just struggling opening the deal. Approaching girls at church. It’s like my reputation is on the line, just suffocating.


      • Oscar says:

        “There’s not some pile of single virtuous women my age at church.”

        Yeah. I know. That’s what I said. Single virtuous women at 20 are rare. Single virtuous women at 30 are extremely rare.

        “The women my age are married.”

        Again, that’s what I said.

        “It’s not like I’m ignoring hundreds of 30-something virtuous women to chase after a few hot young women.”

        I never said you were.

        “The choice is not %100 mine.”

        Yes it is. The problem is that your previous choices (like marrying a bad woman) eliminated a lot of good options. Now you’re left with two unpleasant options….

        1) Compromise
        2) Stay single

        That choice is 100% yours, as were the choices that led you to this choice. Which unpleasant option you pick is 100% up to you.


      • info says:


        As for Men’s expiration date. I do think there could be mitigating factors like wealth. Or how well he ages. And men still remain fertile throughout his lifespan.

        You think it’s a decade or longer compared to women?

        I also notice a tendency among Christian Pastors in the mainstream that says that pursuing career then marriage isn’t viable for young people. As if men and women are identical. Yet Men can do it but women cannot due to limited fertility window.

        The underlying assumption is that equality is good. And have influenced the culture to such an extent that people must marry their own age. Or else the power difference is inherently evil. This is the feminist assault against Patriarchy after all.

        Good is called evil.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Oscar says:

        @ Info

        “As for Men’s expiration date. I do think there could be mitigating factors like wealth. Or how well he ages. And men still remain fertile throughout his lifespan.”

        Yes, there are mitigating factors. Men in the Androsphere often use men’s essentially unlimited fertility window as an excuse to screw around in their youth, then settle down in their 40s or 50s. That’s foolishness.

        First, if you wait until 40, you’ll find that almost all the good women are married with houses full of kids. Of course they are. The ones that aren’t taken are in their late teens and early 20s, and they want men closer to their age. Of course they do. Why wouldn’t they?

        Then there’s the kids themselves. I was 45 when my youngest daughter was born. That means I’ll be 65 when she’s 20. If she has kids until she’s 39 — like her mom did — then I’ll be 84 when my last grandchild is born. My dad died at 86, and he was senile for a few years before he died.

        Kids aren’t vanity accessories, or pets. You’re supposed to actually raise them, and you’re supposed to help them raise their kids. The older you start, the more difficult it gets to fulfill your responsibilities to your children and grandchildren.

        “You think it’s a decade or longer compared to women?”

        That seems like a good rule of thumb, but there seems to be more variation with men than with women.

        “I also notice a tendency among Christian Pastors in the mainstream that says that pursuing career then marriage isn’t viable for young people. As if men and women are identical. Yet Men can do it but women cannot due to limited fertility window.”

        First, churches need to encourage early marriage. My church does, and it’s full of young couples with armloads of toddlers. It works, if you actually do it.

        Second, some young men are late bloomers, or they start further down the ladder. I was in both camps. It takes longer for young men in those situations to demonstrate their potential. Pastors, and older men in general, need to encourage late bloomers to work on their mission and their LAMPS, and see which women they attract. I’m using shorthand, but Deep Strength has fleshed out that concept thoroughly on his blog and in his book.


      • info says:


        Definitely agree on what you say about the androsphere on this point. Acting as if we were as long lived as people in Noah’s day who himself married very late. After making it harder to bond through promiscuity.

        However, given the demonisation now of age gap relationships, like with Elon Musk and Grimes for example that I’ve seen on the net and on Twitter in the past few years, but there are a few more I’ve seen here and there. In various comment sections.

        And women and especially feminists complain that men ought to date their own age.

        It seems Psychological and Social attacks in that direction are more and more frequent recently.

        I do wonder how much of that is nature vs. nurture. The underlying assumption being that people must be equal or it’s otherwise evil. Shaping preferences.


      • locustsplease says:

        When I was younger I thought older men dated younger women because they were creeps and wealthy sugar daddies in sugar baby relationships. About 30 when I was with the ex, I started noticing many extra smiles from young girls I came in contact with. After divorce and RP, I found young women are extremely attracted to older men depending what kind of man you are of course.

        Being a single dad at church, females mostly look at me like, “There’s a guy I won’t have to beg to come to church.” Or, “He won’t let me fall out of faith and stop coming. Look at him taking care of his kid.” I get a lot of compliments. It’s not remotely like being a single mom. They have earned another reputation. Even married women, how many of their husbands would keep coming with the kids if they got divorced. Grimes said she married Musk because he was the leader of the CULT she was in.

        It seems to b women’s nature to want older men. They are more interested in me than men their own age. They want me as much or more than I want them. I just have trouble meeting them. I’ve met half the married people at church. My bitter feminist mother told me I’m not allowed to date much younger women. I told her, “The women my age are in love with their careers and complaining about men. They should get a cat and I can live in peace.”


      • Oscar says:

        @ info

        Elon Musk and Grimes are an example of why large age gaps are generally bad news. If a man waits until he’s older and successful to snag a hottie much younger than himself, he’s a lot more likely to end up with a crazy gold digger.


      • info says:


        That is certainly true. But I do wonder if that’s because of what locustsplease described:

        “They are more interested in me than men their own age. They want me as much or more than I want them. I just have trouble meeting them. I’ve met half the married people at church. My bitter feminist mother told me I’m not allowed to date much younger women.”

        Also this:

        “But some studies find the relationship satisfaction reported by age-gap couples is higher. These couples also seem to report greater trust and commitment and lower jealousy than similar-age couples. Over three-quarters of couples where younger women are partnered with older men report satisfying romantic relationships.

        A factor that does impact on the relationship outcomes of age-gap couples is their perceptions of social disapproval. That is, if people in age-gap couples believe their family, friends and wider community disapprove of their union, then relationship commitment decreases and the risk of break-up increases.”

        ABC Net News: Why couples with big age gaps are happier, despite the social disapproval (2018/4/20)

        Now imagine if there is similar disapproval of marriages of similar age. Perhaps that also influences perception.


      • locustsplease says:

        There is definitely going to b some push back from some people when u are with someone with 15-20 year gap, which is probably what I’m gonna end up with. My neighbor married an attractive woman younger than his daughter. His daughter said she’s not coming to the wedding. He told her, “OK. I don’t care. You don’t tell me what to do.” They were married for 15-20 years. When he died, he left her in a great financial position. They had a Great relationship! She followed his lead, question free, and he had high praise for her, more than any man I ever heard talk about a wife. She has a good relationship with the daughter now.

        I’m sure I will get at least some push back from whoever this person’s family is. My family can shut their mouths. I don’t owe them anything and never do what I’m told. And I’m not tone deaf. I know how it looks when her parents are mid 40s and I’m 38, but I’m not some creeper out here pumping and dumping girls.

        I have nothing in common with single women in my age bracket. They have squandered their youth and beauty and are looking for the best beta provider they can get. I’m looking for a submissive house wife.


      • Lastmod says:

        My dad was 30, my mom 19 when they wed in 1965.

        They met, knew each other for seven months and were married. My dad was called a “cradle robber” by his relatives at the time. “He couldn’t get a girl his own age; guess he had to find a dumb naive one.”

        Stuff like that.

        If I was 30, and I was trying to date your 18 year old daughter, I would be run out of the church, no matter how “holy” I was.

        My mom married mostly because she didn’t want to go back to Wales, and she once said, “I wanted to get married, even as a little girl.”


      • locustsplease says:

        I understand your view point. One thing to get across is that these girls are interested in me. It’s not like I would b gaming slick talking or whatever into a relationship. From what I’ve gathered interacting with the married women I don’t think any of them would have a problem with their daughters with me. None. But again I’ve been celibate approaching 10years totally reformed not some f boy who showed up 6mo ago.

        I’m almost completely silver too. I thought that’s it for me when I started graying at 30 but they crave silver foxes. It’s better than being blonde. Men who dye their hair are taking down their smv.


      • Oscar says:

        @ info

        You’re free to do what you want, but even if those studies are accurate that doesn’t change the math on children and grandchildren.


  9. Pingback: Nobody’s Heroes 15 | okrahead

  10. On the article where she asks, “When did you first know he loved you?”

    The problem here is in the question itself. It is based on the presupposition that knowing the man loves you is important. It is the chivalry problem, from the woman’s perspective. It never occurred to her to ask, “How did you know when you loved him?

    In her model of how the romantic universe works, the man must prove his love for the woman in order for things to proceed. “White Knight, you have performed your acts of service to the fair maiden so perfectly that you may now court her for her hand in marriage!” This is, at least in part, because the purity and sanctity of the woman’s love is unquestioned, presupposed. Women’s love is considered to be so pure and such a perfect divining rod of truth that she does not have to wonder about her own motives. She is a woman, and she loves like Jesus does. (See country song lyrics.)

    Such a perversion of how love actually works is found in just asking this question, that it doesn’t even matter how all the women responded to it.

    Liked by 3 people

    • Jack says:

      Great insights! This is what I was getting at when I posed the question, “What does she mean by love?” In essence, she’s probing to see whether the man will cater to her Feeelz, pander to her whims, and do her bidding. And it’s not her model. The inversion of authority and perversion of love that you and I described is the societal norm and has been for decades. My recent posts are calling men to reverse this interaction. Instead of men trying to pass women’s various tests, the man should probe the woman to see whether she will display IOIs, get on board with his mission, share enthusiasm about his purpose, and be a helper to him.


      • Imagine if you were the man who was the subject of this solipsistic exercise. You were a fly on the wall listening to your wife / girlfriend / whatever navel-gazing with her equally clueless friends about this inane topic.

        “Golly gee. I am sure I glad I was able to sufficiently prove my love to you at that one moment when I had no idea I was being tested for this.”

        I’ve been labeled a “romantic alpha” by commenter Cameron. But even I am not this hopeless.



      • Totally random…

        I though I would click on the “Translate into your Language” button and chose “Serbian” below.

        An almost perfect, word for word translation appears. Not bad, Google translate.

        However, since there is no Serbian equivalent to “golly gee” we get…

        „Jebote. Siguran sam da mi je drago što sam mogao dovoljno da ti dokažem svoju ljubav u tom trenutku kada nisam imao pojma da sam bio testiran zbog ovoga.”

        “Fvck. I’m sure I’m glad I was able to prove my love to you enough at that moment when I had no idea I was being tested for this.”


  11. Look, you really don’t have to think too hard to understand how bizarro the SMP/MMP has become.

    Exhibit B: Another article from Dames That Know: Don’t be a wife when he isn’t your husband (2018/7/28).

    A reader writes in to level the following complaint:

    She has been living with her boyfriend for around 3-4 years.

    She decided to start showing him that she is marriage minded by:

    Cooking meals he likes
    Having fantastic s#x with him
    Doing more of the housework

    And now she is bugged by the fact that no marriage proposal is forth coming.

    The trope about buying cows and getting free milk comes up in the writers advice, of course.

    But it’s not exactly clear what the live-in girlfriend is supposed to do now.

    It seems that moving in, dividing the household labor evenly, and having presumably lackluster, so-so s#x is totally OK.

    But making the meals he likes, fvcking his brains out like a porn star every night, and doing most of the housework? “WHOA, SISTER! Save that sh!t for marriage! He is getting the milk for free!”

    This is the part where you do the puppy-head-turn with the confused look on its face thing.

    So is she supposed to STOP doing all that stuff to teach him a lesson?

    Welcome to bizarro world.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Oscar says:

      “She decided to start showing him that she is marriage minded by:

      Cooking meals he likes
      Having fantastic s#x with him
      Doing more of the housework
      …make meals he likes, fvck his brains out like a porn star every night and do most of the housework? “WHOA, SISTER! Save that sh!t for marriage! He is getting the milk for free!”

      As I keep saying, women know exactly what to do to make their men happy. And I mean exactly. It’s not like we’re difficult to figure out.

      The problem is that most of them don’t want to do it after marriage. They’re happy to do it before marriage, but as soon as they say “I do”, all of a sudden they suffer a lobotomy and have no clue how to keep their husbands happy.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Liz says:

        No one marries someone because they are great at cleaning the house.
        Of course, “good for making house” is a good indication but in this case she is trying to guilt a man who does not want to marry her into marriage.


      • Liz says:

        Just got back from visiting our oldest son, who is in South Dakota.
        That is like a different world. Scheels was playing Christian music.
        In the hotel, my spouse was sitting drinking his coffee and he observed a woman (mother), an old woman (probably the grandmother) and three young girls (he estimated ages 10-13). The mother and grandmother were explaining the best ways to clean toilets and do laundry. Everyone seemed far happier there too. Lots of “choose life” billboards until we crossed back over into Colorado and right over the border “protect abortion” bill boards started.
        Very happy with my daughter in law. She was homeschooled her whole life. Her parents never even let her watch the Disney channel when she was growing up. They seem very happy, and I am ecstatic.

        Liked by 3 people

      • Oscar says:


        I’m happy to hear about your son and daughter-in-law.

        Liked by 1 person

    • locustsplease says:

      Like Dalrock said, women preferred sexual sin is serial monogamous relationships. Men’s is pump and dumps and FWB relationships. Women act like it’s a sin for men to not prefer their sin.


    • locustsplease says:

      She wants to do nothing before or after marriage. If she was planning on doing her job this wouldn’t even b brought up. I’m sure if she leaves he’s getting back rent for wifely home living in privileges? They only count what doesn’t benefit them.


  12. OT

    My 10 year old son is watching T-2 right now

    His question

    Why doesn’t the piece of the T-1000 that gets shot off in the car chase (after they break Sarah out the mental hospital) just become a tiny terminator?

    Liked by 1 person

  13. Following the link in the OP, I visited Dames That Know and commented.


  14. Pingback: Rules to love/live by were shaped by masculinity, but without masculinity they become garbage | Christianity and masculinity

  15. Aaron MacDonald says:

    “So, a BPD who wants to pick a fight with her husband because he is leaving on a totally innocent and legitimate business trip should instead wrap her arms around him, smile softly, and kiss him goodbye, and tell him to drive carefully.”

    That’s suspicious behavior. If a wife doesn’t show any signs of distress at you being away from her for several days, either she wants to see you gone or she’s got someone else lined up for when you do go.


    • It might be suspicious behavior for a couple that is healthy and who are able to appropriately describe the fact that they will miss each other during the time apart.

      This intervention is designed for borderlines who need a very heavy-handed road map to that place.


  16. Pingback: The TLDR on Suffering | Σ Frame

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