Case studies towards examining the cause.
Readership: Married Men; Marriage Minded Men; Domain Minded Men;
Theme: Feminine Submission
Author’s Note: The contents of this post are the gleanings of an email string between me and Jack. Jack helped organize and compile the content and added images. Names have been changed to pseudonyms.
Length: 1,000 words
Reading Time: 6 minutes
Introduction
As Jack stated in his post, Not Trusting women is Deep Inner Game (2021-12-15), Proverbs 31:11 plainly states that the husband’s heart trusts the virtuous wife (which is about 1 out of 1,000 women), but even so, it does not say that he trusts her with every emotion or thought that he has. But as men, we very much want to read this meaning into the passage. So this made me wonder, if the husband is not extending full transparent trust to his wife carte blanche, then what kind of relationship does this Proverbs 31 couple have?
So let’s explore this ideal relationship a little further, as described in Proverbs 31:10-31. Verse 12 says she does him good and not evil, and then the rest of the chapter is dominated by references to making his family respected through the work she does and how she represents him in the community.
As men, do we have this kind of relationship with our wives?
To get us thinking about real life examples, I’ll relay three case studies here.
Case Study 1 – Red Pill Apostle and his admin assistant
I would liken this to the working relationship I have with my admin, Tasha. I know that if I direct her to do something that she will follow my instructions and the task will be completed. I know that the standards I set for managing my clientele will be met. I don’t instruct her on the specific means of accomplishing every task because she has developed systems for herself that make it easier for her to follow my bigger picture instructions. This is the trust the husband has in the wife to do good to him in verse 11, not a trust that she can handle his innermost doubts, fears or thoughts and then not change towards him in light of that knowledge.
Case Study 2 – Red Pill Apostle and Mrs. Apostle
How I see this applying in my own marriage is that I give my wife what she needs from me as her head, and what she needs is to feel like I don’t keep parts of my life from her. What this looks like is talking with her about many things at a level I would consider superficial, but is enough for her to feel we’ve “connected”. If I’ve had a rough day at work we may talk about what happened and why it happened and conclude with a platitude such as, “It is what it is and it will work out.” What she needs to feel is that I’m working on a fix and that I have confidence that I will find a way to make it OK.
What I will not do is say anything that would shake her confidence because she doesn’t handle that well. In the past, she’s gone full control freak and my observation is that this is due in large part to her personality paired with the combination of poor theological foundation and a lack of faith in God’s sovereignty. The results of control freak wife are contentiousness and a struggle against headship.
Case Study 3 – Jack and Jill
My wife is also my secretary. A usual day for us is to go to campus together and she works in my office while I am teaching all day. She answers the phone, and helps me process orders and finish paperwork that is in Chinese, since she can do it much faster than I can and with fewer errors.
I’ve been in the habit of harnessing my wife’s thoughts early in the day – before she can think herself into one of her moods. One day (2021-12-16), she had been in a bad mood for the past couple days, so in the morning, I wrote down two questions on her notepad.
- What brings you joy?
- What brings hubby joy?
Right away, she wanted to lecture me about what I should do to make her happy. I told her, “Not now, I need to go teach my class. Think about it while you’re working, and we’ll talk about it later today.”
By the time lunch rolled around, she was in a calmer mood. Several pages of her notepad were filled with her scribblings. She said, “Oh! I have a big conclusion from the questions you posed!” Then she told me some things she realized about herself from thinking over the first question. (Just as I expected, she only delved into the first question, and never got around to the second, but I let it pass for the time being.) While she was talking, she got so emotional that she started crying. I just sat quietly and listened to her talk. She was very contented with herself after this, and she quickly got over her issues from the previous day.
For more on this technique, see The Question Apology Game (2019-1-6)
Concluding Statements
If we were to get into the habit of thinking of ourselves as our wives’ supervisors or mentors, and focusing on the ways their behaviors line up with this structure, and being thankful for this, then it might take us further down the road towards sanctification and the Proverbs 31 experience in marriage.
Even single men could avail of adopting this general mindset towards women who are regularly within their vicinity. Conveying a Command Presence resonates with women and Displaying High Value invites respect and deference from women. It will also flush out those women with latent feminist values whom you should be aware of and wary of. Proceed confidently, but with caution.
Exit Question: How does your marriage line up with Proverbs 31?
Related
- Σ Frame: Man as the Manager, Woman as the Helper (2018-05-19)
- Σ Frame: Man as the Middle Manager (2018-05-21)
- Σ Frame: Man as the Hiring Manager (2018-05-24)
- Σ Frame: Moral Guidance Based Feedback vs. Sexual Attention (2021-11-24)
- Σ Frame: Identifying Your Spiritual Domain (2021-12-01)
Σ Frame 
I doubt RPA’s admin and your wife dress like the women in pics for “work” and if my admin showed up to work like that, she’d be sent home. You’re here to work, not be a distraction
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That’s how the HR department dresses since they make the rules so don’t have to follow them.
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A related note. The “Proverbs 31 woman/wife” has become a meme coopted by churchians in the last decade.
Instead of an ideal that women in the church should strive for, it is now seen as the default setting for all Christian women. That is, they see it as describing women in their natural state, rather than something they have to develop and pursue.
It has been a super sneaky sleight of hand, but if you look at the books now, the social media groups “Fort Hood Proverbs 31 women” and so on, you see it.
A group like that, for example, SHOULD BE an accountability group for women. Sort of a “check in and let us know how well you matched up to Proverbs 31 today. Were you sweet and helpful to your husband? Did you save the household money? Did you nag?”
But those groups are now just declarations of how awesome and long-suffering women are today. They just encourage women to being awesome because Proverbs 31 or something.
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In an ideal world, “Proverbs 31 Woman/Wives” would be the female counterpart to “promise keepers”.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Sorry. Made myself laugh for a second.
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Proverbs 31:10 … clearly indicates the rarity of finding a virtuous wife. Basically, if a woman thinks she is a 31 woman she is not. If a woman takes the approach that the standard of 31 is impossible for an imperfect human to achieve, but she’ll do everything in her power to try and make it happen, then goes about putting in the effort, she may very well be a 31 woman. If you are reading that last sentence and find yourself thinking, “Good luck finding a woman with an attitude and work ethic like that”, you are confirming the first half of verse 10.
My take is that there are both absolutes and variations for what makes a Proverbs 31 wife. The absolutes being the responsibilities the bible lays out for a wife the variations being those functions she does that are specific to her husband. From this I believe that a man has a better chance of building a 31 wife than he does of finding one.
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Every woman believes she is the exception.
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Every woman believes she is the exception.
Herewith the progression of every Red Pill argument ever had with any woman, including the Manosphere Ladies’ Auxiliary.
–Found the incel.
–NAWALT.
–I am not like that.
–My friends are not like that.
–The women I know/work with/go to church with/grew up with are not like that.
–Men do it too/men are like that too.
–Women are like that because men are like that. If men were not like that, women would not be like that.
–It wasn’t women’s fault. It’s the fault of parents, friends, school, work, politics, government, society.
–Who hurt you?
–You obviously have a lot of issues. I’ll pray for you.
–You just hate women/you’re a misogynist.
–You’re just a bitter small d!cked loser who can’t get laid.
–INCEL!
Argumentation has changed. Women are now leading with “incel”.
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From this I believe that a man has a better chance of building a 31 wife than he does of finding one.
Good point. Most men’s best hope is finding a woman with raw materials from which a man can refine and make into his P31 wife.
It’s the job of parents to make a daughter into a wife. It’s the job of her husband to make her into his wife.
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The woman described in Proverbs 31 has adult children, and her husband “sits at the city gate”. They’re an older couple who’ve been married for decades and others look up to them.
Remember when I said that men need to judge women on their potential? This what I was talking about. If she doesn’t have the potential to be a good wife and mother, only a fool would marry her.
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Deti,
Why are you arguing with women?
No, seriously, why?
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So I can bring you entertaining sidebars like the one above.
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Touché
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I think RPA hit on a couple of things here that are important, and after ruminating I will write more about it, but importantly:
1) A wife does not need to know every thought in her husband’s head. This is especially true if you are dealing with a lack of confidence in some necessary ability on which your wife depends. If you feel you are lacking, the last thing your wife needs to here is that you are not good enough. You are her strength and support, she needs to feel that you are completely competent at all times, even if you don’t feel the same. When I was a small child I was completely confident my father could ward off any danger. Now I realize that he was always fairly small and had no particular ability to do violence to anyone. That doesn’t make him less of a man, it just means that I had a complete confidence in him regardless of his objective ability, which I could not then judge anyway. Your relationship with your wife should be in a similar vein; she should always feel confident in you, and you should never undermine that.
And yes, I know, book of Job exceptions, but that is a whole different thing.
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okrahead,
A man needs another man or two that he trusts enough to speak freely with and have confidence that those men will advise and act in is best interest. Basically, you needs some “bros before garden tools” men in your life. Those are the people a man can seek advice and encouragement from regarding his struggles and doubts and only from those men. The risks of stepping outside of that close circle is too great.
As far as a wife goes, she is only to know what she needs to know to do her job as a helpmeet and the rest is for the husband to keep between himself, God and those select men I just mentioned. A man will deeply regret not heeding my advice on this matter.
My youngest son is at the age where he thinks I can fix anything, I know all the answers and can lift immense weight. It’s a fun stage that I know will pass as he ages and realizes the realities of human limits.
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I agree, but what if your worst fear comes true and you learn that you don’t have that necessary ability on which your wife depends? And subsequently your wife experiences your lack of ability even though you may try to shelter her.
It seems she would lose the ability to feel that you are completely confident at all times and may (would) try to step in and take control to prevent a repeat. Now how do you go about restoring having your wife believe that you are good enough?
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At some point, wife has to accept that her husband has flaws, and then must make a decision: Accept the flaw and deal with it; or end the marriage.
Men have to accept wives’ flaws all the time. There are certain things Mrs. deti just can’t do or be. I’ve had to accept that. So it is with her: she must accept my flaws and shortcomings, including the ones where I don’t have some “necessary” ability.
Women are just going to have to put on their big girl panties and Deal. With. It. Or leave.
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“OK, wife, I can’t do X (to your satisfaction). You need to accept that. Or you need to decide that you cannot, in which case we need to end the marriage. If you stay and accept it, you are not allowed to throw that failure in my face nor are you allowed to run things here. If you can’t accept that, then leave.”
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Joe2,
We are dependent on God for all things, to the point that He has not only planned the ends but also the means. You can have confidence that your life, my life, thedeti’s life, and everyone else here will work out to God’s plan.
The confidence comes from knowing that you will figure it out, whatever ‘it’ happens to be, because God has given you a wife for His purposes. Stop second guessing and trust that you will probably find a way to work through whatever the ‘it’ is. Even if it doesn’t work out the way you had planned and times are difficult you can be determined to persevere knowing that you may have to push through some misery to come out OK on the other side.
A woman will second guess her life choices if her husband is paralyzed by the fear of uncertainty because there are some potential bad outcomes. She will most likely not doubt him and follow along if he addresses uncertainty by making the best decision he can make with the information available and then acts.
Basically, if you over think whether you are good enough for a woman, she will know with certainty that are you are not. If you believe that you are good enough for a woman, your confidence in this fact will positively influence the relationship.
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You mean like Job? I suppose a man should follow his example. Maybe that’s why the Holy Spirit put it there.
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Hmm, the Proverbs 31 woman construct, Scripturally speaking not Churchian pablum, to me is something for a Godly woman to aim at and attempt to grow towards in her faith and her walk with the Lord and her husband. I agree, the Churchian idea that PV 31 is Christian women’s default setting is beyond ridiculous.
When I think of the women in our Home group, I’d say all are moving in that direction, the PV 31 lady, none have arrived yet. My wife gets the closest to it; HOWEVER, that is because she’s been married 33 years and has been working on her faith and walk for as long. Up next is the Group’s co-leader’s wife. Although it’s a re-marriage, I think they’re at 20+ years now, with two kids between them (none brought from the previous marriages), and the wife is doing well in her growth towards the PV 31 ideal. She’s CLEARLY working at it and growing into it. I’ve known her for three or four years now and the growth is evident.
The rest of the women in the Home group are making strides, yet they have certain things they have to overcome. One of them is in her late forties, recently divorced, and is making nice strides BECAUSE she immerses herself in the things of God, His Word, prayer, fellowship, etc. Her divorce, contrary to the “wife initiated/she’s not happy divorces” of Manosphere lore, really was a product of the husband more than her. IOW, he was the bat sh!t crazy one, not the wife. It does occasionally happen this way. She wasn’t perfect (obviously), but he did some stuff that none of us would condone on this site , I.e. sleeping/moving in with another woman while married, killing the family dog right in front of his young son’s eyes, slitting it’s throat–pure psycho stuff.
The other two mid-thirty something women, are making strides, but the jury is out a bit on both of them. I see signs they’re beginning to move in the direction of PV 31, but still need to see more. Unlike the forty something divorcee, the two younger one’s faith seems to be in “fits and starts.” IOW, they are doing some Spiritual work that could develop them towards PV 31 women, or they could end up sliding into Churchianity, and then maybe out the door.
I’m rooting for both of them, because unlike some RP Christian men seem to think about these types of women, I think God can do “Exceeding abundantly, even above what we ask or think” Eph 3:20 and these women can breakthrough to the PV 31 track. However, I’m also a realist too. If it is to be a PV 31 breakthrough for either of these gals, it’s going to take work on their part and letting God develop them; just like He did with and for my wife, and the Group co-leader’s wife as well.
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The problem with having ideals is that it is specifically a man’s game. Men love the challenge toward excellence, women, not so much.
It is hard wired for them to wiggle out of standards. Novaseeker has explored the evolutionary psychology of this extensively.
Guys look at an impossible list of masculine traits:
Accountability
Calculated risk taking
Controlled strength
Kindness
Competence
Truth telling
Courage
Protecting the weak
Honoring commitments
Integrity
… and on and on.
And we think, “Pretty hard. Let me give it a shot! I just might be able to do it!”
Recall, the list of traits in Proverbs 31 is The King’s mom writing to him.
“Here’s what a good woman is really like, but you probably won’t find her.”
The dynamic is totally changed (and the purpose of the text) when you read it that way. Strive [to find] this person. She probably doesn’t exist, but your life will be way better if you find her.
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Also, women (and the entirety of blue pill conditioning) are aware of this trait of striving that men are born with and exploit it to the point of making men have shorter lifespans and 10 times as much suicide.
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Scott that may indeed be true in a general sense. Most suicides by men are currently ones in middle age. Usually white. In the Incel world, its still being “studied” by so-called experts but the rate there is abnormally higher than average as well.
I’ve grappled with the notion of it for many years. You know, wake up for no reason at 3AM, laying in bed. cat purring. House silent and its in my brain “Hey buddy……what about having a go? Remember? Great time for it! What do you say?”
And I must admit over the past few decades, I have smirked over the idea. But if I did the deed, it would “prove” everyone right about me from over the decades. I am a garbage human being and I shouldn’t live. Life might be actually pretty miserable in many areas, but I wont let the infamous “they” out there win on that. I do hope cancer, heart disease or getting hit by a bus happens sooner than later though.
I would like to see or at least read about the correlation of suicide in men with untreated mental illness…and I dont mean giving a man a fist-full of pills and calling that “treatment” versus men with general depression.
If there exists a study of sorts, I think it wouldnt be allowed to be published.
As for a shorter life expectancy? Women DO see the doctor more. Women DO socialize more in older age. Women DO have networks through church, social groups, friends, chats…..many men my age and up rot in front of the TV, in their “man cave” or in other more destructive behaviors.
Mountain climbing at 65 and scaling cliffs leads to accidental death a bit more with men at that age than a younger man. A man running a marathon at age 58 even with training probably isnt the best idea unless he is indeed an old “jock” type of guy.
Even i older age, men do riskier things.
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Maybe but I think the shorter life span is probably more accounted for by the types of back-breaking work that pretty much only men do when younger, the industrial accidents, the battlefields all over the world piled up with male corpses.
All in the service of creating a more comfortable world for women. Who have zero gratitude for it.
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Scott – I never put together the relationship between a husband’s trait of striving and shorter life expectancy. I was under the impression that husbands tend to die first because they want to. 😉
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Rpa men don’t die earlier they make it to the promised land. But seriously did you steal that line from me? Most of them reach a point where they look and act like hey get me the heck out of here. Women seem to bitterly cling on to life pointlessly only to complain for 20-30 years till they die. Every time I meet a 80-100 yo woman her family warns me how angry and bitter she is.
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I remember as a teenager reading a list of things every human should be able to do by Robert Heinlein. Back then I thought, “Holy crap! That looks difficult!”
More recently, I read it again because I introduced my 12-year-old boy to classic sci-fi. This time I thought, “Huh, look at that. I’ve done almost all of it.”
That’s how we work.
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@ Scott, here is a paper I linked to here a while back. It quantifies the male female differences in psychological and behavioral traits and ties them to evolution driven differences in reproductive strategy. As a psychologist you might be interested. Plenty of support for the Red Pill.
Archer, John. (2019). The reality and evolutionary significance of human psychological sex differences. Biological Reviews. 94. 10.1111/brv.12507.
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Not throwing any shade at prov 31 woman butttttt. If I came home and my wife bought farm land I would probably b pissed off.
Charm and beauty are fleeting. Heck many of us can’t even find these which are above a crappy attitude and green hair but below the prov 31 wife.
My neighbors wife is about like this. She loves being a a non working public face of the family wife. Of course he makes mil plus is highly liked and respected in fact I rarely tell anyone he’s my neighbor because it looks like I’m name dropping.
Not having an abortion or divorcing your husband does not make you a prov 31 woman.
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This verse….
….. comes after these verses.
Obviously, it’s a task with which he’s already entrusted her. If she was running around buying real estate willy-nilly, that would be a problem.
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This Prov 31 woman is a noble woman for a king. She is not for us peasants.
That’s how she is buying fields and importing food on merchant ships. And why “She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.” No peasant wants his wife helping the needy without his permission nor asking him for such permission. Cuz they ain’t rich. A Proverbs 31 wife is a curse to a working class man.
She gonna break you with armani and gucci.
No duh since he is King Lemuel!
I suffer not a woman to teach; and we have too much “kindness” already. A bloodthirsty tyrant king of ancient times may have needed such a feminst pacifist wife to temper his outright tyranny, but we do not. This woman is an abomination to us.
The only thing this passage is good for nowdays is feminist arguing from it that its ok for women to work because this King Lemuel’s wife sold clothes she made. This passage is trouble.
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If we’re going to throw out one passage because liars insist on misinterpreting it, then we’re going to have to throw out the whole Bible.
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It’s trouble that people interpret advice to a king as if its fully applicable to themselves. This is here for Israelite kings to read so they don’t marry a bunch of lazy women who consume the taxes and don’t work a trade to bring in money to allow lowering taxes.
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Israelite kings didn’t sit at the city gates.
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Jason Prazcol,
I agree that the Proverbs 31 woman is noble in character. But it seems that you are missing the larger point of the chapter, which is about a woman who pursues excellence in all things. You also read things into the passage that are not there. For example, you assumed that the Proverbs 31 woman is a feminist (?!?), and “openeth her mouth with wisdom” is the same as teaching, which it is not, and I don’t know what you mean by saying, “we have too much kindness already.” You overlooked the verses that say she is diligent, hardworking, and wise, and these traits are not congruent with your description.
Also, your estimation seems to imply that lower and middle class women should be absolved of having comparable character traits, and that it would even be unwise to expect such things from them. I disagree with this. I believe women of all socioeconomic statuses can pursue and exemplify habits and traits of excellence, should they choose to do so. Furthermore, men should not discourage women from pursuing good character and excellence (within their domain of influence), but this seems to be the overall sentiment behind your comment.
In the OP, our testimonies offered portraits of middle class women who make themselves useful to their husbands. These are small steps towards the Proverbs 31 ideal, recast into a personalized realistic setting. It is good for men and women to be inspired by these examples and to aim higher.
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Not to mention that the entire book of Proverbs is addressed to King Solomon’s son. By jason prazcol’s “logic”, that means the entire book is irrelevant to everyone who’s not an ancient Israelite prince.
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