The Wages of Sin are Paid in Marriage

A history of Sexperience corrodes marriage from the inside out.

Readership: Christians; Those who are Married or Marriage minded;
Theme: Feminine Submission
Length: 1,800 words
Reading Time: 10 minutes

Introduction

Sexual Submission (2022-10-14) brought up the question of whether the model of Attraction / Arousal described therein was truly applicable in multiple contexts. Derek identified the model as pertaining fairly accurately to the experience of long-time married couples, while Deti argued that Attraction and Arousal are concomitant for women (similar to how they are for men) and that the model is a desperate attempt to deflect, explain, and excuse wives’ lack of Arousal.

This post will go over some dynamics that affect the context and then answer some questions that were brought up.

Comparing Models of Feminine Submission

I’ll offer some concise descriptions of the models of feminine submission that have been put forth.

Biblical Model: Good marriages last because the wife is chaste, and is regularly submissive and respectful to her husband. Bad marriages fail because the wife does not do these things. (Among other things.)

Jack’s Model (as given in Sexual Submission): Good marriages last because the wife is humble and trusting. Husbands play a role in keeping her that way. Bad marriages fail because the wife does not respect, submit, and help / cooperate with the husband. (Among other things.)

Derek’s Model: Good marriages last because the wife is focused on family life, including being a helper to and getting along well with her husband. Bad marriages fail because the wife is immature or selfish. (Among other things.)

Deti’s Model: Good marriages last because the wife regularly wants to have sex with her husband. Bad marriages fail because the wife is not genuinely attracted to / aroused by her husband. (That’s it!)

These models fit the biblical model in the following ways.

  • Jack’s Model: The wife surrenders to the Headship authority of the husband.
  • Derek’s Model: The wife conforms to her role as a wife and mother.
  • Detis Model: The wife is submissive to the husband in the bedroom.

These models are valid in the following contexts.

  • Jack’s Model: Generally works in successful marriages, but the specific reasons for that success vary from case to case.
  • Derek’s Model: Hearkens back to traditional norms for marriage and family and is therefore time tested.
  • Deti’s Model: Stands true in a sex centric culture where wimmin are ruled by Desires / Feeelz / Feminism / hypergamy / Immaturity and not by God nor husband.

These models proscribe a failure of the biblical model in the following ways.

  • Jack’s Model: The marriage will fail if husbands do not take the initiative to impose Headship or if wives are uncooperative or unsubmissive.
  • Derek’s Model: The marriage will fail if the wife is immature, selfish, or screwed up for whatever reason.
  • Deti’s Model: The marriage will fail if the wife is not perpetually aroused (wanting to have sex with her husband all the time) and the husband cannot regularly and sufficiently gin up his Game (e.g. Dread, et al.).

It is clearly evident that if a marriage is to succeed over the long haul, then husband and wife will have to stick to the biblical model, or make the transition to the biblical model at some point, or else be doomed to dysfunction.

Sin Introduces Weaknesses to the Models

Deep Strength did a nice job describing how promiscuous women are disappointed with a husband because they subconsciously compare his qualities to all the best qualities of the men she’s had before.

“…the higher the number of sexual partners [a woman has had] the more comparisons she has to make toward her husband. Thus, if her husband doesn’t measure up in some way to partner #1, 2, 3, 4, etc., up to say 10 (n count = 10) in various different areas then she is more likely to be dissatisfied and start disrespecting and/or rebelling. For instance, if #2 made 6 figures, #5 had an athletes muscular physique, and #7 had his own house, even though all of these are different people she will generally expect that her husband should have most if not all of those qualities.

This is why expectations seem to be sky high with women nowadays. They’re taking aggregate comparisons of lots of men they slept with and expect the next one (e.g. their potential husband) to have all of the best qualities of all of those men put together.”

Christianity and Masculinity: Why expectations of men and women are out of control (2022-10-14)

Women who can’t get aroused by their husband in marriage on an ongoing basis are almost certainly guilty of past sexual sins, or else they experienced some sort of psychological trauma, or maybe both. Men who married a virgin don’t really have this problem, or if they do, then they don’t really consider it to be a problem. Men who didn’t marry a virgin are frequently faced with this problem and because of the prevalence of fornication I would say it is now the norm. Scott and Mychael are an exception, by God’s grace.

Likewise, the same thing happens with men too.

“A similar thing tends to happen in men with the desensitizing nature of airbrushed women on social media, advertising, and porn. Once a man has seen so much “beauty” per se, he becomes more desensitized toward normal looking women in everyday life (not counting overweight/obesity type stuff). Hence, normal women can’t meet his unrealistic standards anymore.”

Christianity and Masculinity: Why expectations of men and women are out of control (2022-10-14)

Deep Strength didn’t go far enough in describing the effects on men. Promiscuous men become disappointed with a wife because they compare her general level of respect and bedroom performance to all the best T&A he’s had before, i.e. swinging from the chandeliers at Niagara falls, and so on.

If his wife doesn’t measure up in some way to partner #1, 2, 3, 4, etc., up to say 10 (n count = 10) in various different areas then he is more likely to be dissatisfied and fail to truly love, cherish, and appreciate her for who she is. For instance, if #1 laughed at all his jokes, #3 came running to his door in the middle of the night for every single booty call, #5 could suck a golf ball through a garden hose and swallow every drop for four hours straight until her neck gave out, #7 had a “perfect 10” body, and #9 was a multiple orgasm squirter, even though all of these are different women he will generally expect that his wife should have most if not all of these qualities.

Imagine his disappointment then, after he gets married, his wife locks up in the bedroom because she’s comparing him to all the men that she’s cuff linked before. He’s stuck with a contentious nag who won’t put out, and regrets ever getting married. He will feel dissatisfied and curse women and marriage (maybe even God too), no matter that his wife may have many positive qualities.

Moreover, both Men and Women are taking aggregate comparisons of lots of media images / portrayals and past lovers and expect the next one (e.g. their actual or potential husband or wife) to have all of the best qualities of all of those images / portrayals / men or women put together.

Case Study — Jack and Jill

Neither my wife nor I were virgins when we married. So it can be expected that we will experience the frustrations and disappointments I described above.

  • Even though I am a Ph.D. / professor, SMV = ~8, she still wants more attention, confidence, game, income, status, achievement, and so on out of me.
  • Even though she is a sex bunny with an hourglass figure, I still want more respect, sexual enthusiasm, passion, and playfulness out of her.

There is still love and sexual attraction between us, but the sexual arousal is cluttered with emotional triggers and subconscious expectations and so it doesn’t occur spontaneously. However, becoming aware of these issues helps immensely, as I described in Riding the Raging Rivulet (2022-10-13). Learning the Erotic Blueprints and Personality of one’s spouse also helps streamline the festivities with fewer false starts and less frustration. These things would be difficult even without any past antipathetic experiences, but it can be overcome by God’s grace.

The point is, even the best of relationships are difficult to navigate, but having a history of hangups and hiccups introduces many more obstreperous obstacles to be overcome in attaining the ideal.

Difficult Questions

All of the above discussion brings me to a place where I can address some questions that were raised by Derek and Deti. But I’m afraid the answers will be quite disappointing.

Deti wrote,

“Why should I do all this work for lackluster response and a little dampness, when what I should be getting is great sex and Niagara Falls? And what work is she going to do for me? What do I get out of this? What’s in this for me?”

Pardon me for being so blunt, but this statement perfectly represents the male perspective of a marriage suffering from a history of premarital sexual promiscuity, as I described above.

Deti wrote,

“If you’re married to a slow cooker or a steam engine who requires that much work and maintenance to get going, she’s not sexually attracted to you. If you have to do this much work and go through all this rigmarole and procedure just to get her to notice you want sex, she’s not sexually attracted to you and any arousal you get out of that will be purely mechanical.”

The answer is… Yes! That’s what a debased marriage is like.

As Feeriker said,

“Painful, unpleasant truths are always difficult to accept.”

Closing Statements

Deti’s viewpoint is typical for men who have been psychologically abused by sexually promiscuous women and denied respect and natural affections in marriage. I understand this because I’ve experienced the same. However, because of the prevalence of feminism and sexual rebellion, even men who married virgins have to deal with dead bedroom syndrome, like Red Pill Apostle.

  • In addition to the challenges of being imperfect humans trapped in a mortal body, sexual sins introduce more emotional and spiritual obstacles that must be overcome, perhaps on a daily basis.
  • Married life brings to the surface all the best and the worst in people.
  • When things are going well (like the humdrum of married life), people fall into habits and get complacent and lazy.
  • When things fall apart, it’s time to do some inventory and take stock of what you’re dealing with, and what can reasonably be done to fit into the biblical model.
  • Men can be very aggressive at establishing Headship authority. But only when circumstances demand it. Sexual sin removes the incentives of positive reward.
  • Women can be very proactive about being submissive, including sexual submission. But only when circumstances motivate it. Sexual sin (among other things) erodes such circumstances.

No offense is intended to anyone mentioned here as an example.

Related

About Jack

Jack is a world traveling artist, skilled in trading ideas and information, none of which are considered too holy, too nerdy, nor too profane to hijack and twist into useful fashion. Sigma Frame Mindsets and methods for building and maintaining a masculine Frame
This entry was posted in Adultery and Fornication, Agency, Attraction, Calculated Risk Taking, Choosing a Partner or Spouse, Courtship and Marriage, Decision Making, Denying/Witholding Sex, Enduring Suffering, Fundamental Frame, Game, Game Theory, Handling Rejection, Headship and Patriarchy, Holding Frame, Identity, Intersexual Dynamics, Introspection, Maturity, Personal Growth and Development, Models of Failure, Personal Domain, Psychological Disorders, Psychology, Questions from Readers, Relationships, Running the Gauntlet, Sanctification & Defilement, Self-Concept, Sex, Sexual Authority, Sphere of Influence, Stewardship, Vetting Women. Bookmark the permalink.

60 Responses to The Wages of Sin are Paid in Marriage

  1. elspeth says:

    There is no such thing as a wife who is perpetually aroused.

    A wife can be “always willing” to meet her husband’s needs, and usually more than happy for the blessing of being able to do so. She can enjoy doing so more often than not.

    But “perpetually aroused” is not a thing.

    Liked by 4 people

    • thedeti says:

      Except of course for you.

      You write about SAM as if you’re perpetually aroused.

      Liked by 2 people

      • elspeth says:

        I am certainly frequently impressed with my man. He has earned the honor.

        It’s not the same thing as being perpetually aroused.

        I am asserting, and strongly so, that any wife who practices looking at her husband through eyes of gratitude and with a heart determined to recount his good qualities could be equally impressed.

        Liz once said of her husband, “He is beyond beautiful to me now.^

        I can relate and can tell you that’s not perpetual arousal. That is eyes wide open love.

        Grown up stuff,

        Liked by 6 people

  2. Scott says:

    In my first marriage, the numbers were

    Me: N=6
    Her: N=0

    Using the red pill, this would seem to create an advantage in my case, because although I was no virgin, I was as committed as they come. Totally smitten and crazy about her.

    One of the (primary of many) reasons hamsterbations given was

    “I saved myself for you so I didn’t get to have fun and play the field.”

    Um. Stuff that would have been good to know BEFORE we got married, I am thinking.

    Chaste girl, raised Christian
    Strong family unit
    “Conservative” church tradition/denominational preference
    Discussions prior to marriage about roles, submission, etc.
    …and on and on for vetting purposes.

    Still fail. So you never really know. There are no guarantees.

    Liked by 7 people

    • Jack says:

      Scott, in the case of your first marriage, the problem was not a past history of sexperience on her part, but the effects of growing up in a liberal progressive feminist culture. The inherent emphasis on individual liberty and self-exploration sets the stage for women to enter into promiscuity with fewer reservations — even after marriage. I don’t see how this can be avoided or changed without the fabled drastic cultural reset.

      Liked by 1 person

      • thedeti says:

        No. The problem was that Scott did things that caused his first wife to lose attraction for him. He was kind, he was nice, he was devoted to her, he did what she asked/screeched/demanded. Then there was what he did not do – he did not tell her “no” when that needed to be done; he did not stand up for himself; he did not lay down hard boundaries and guardrails for her conduct; he did not make it clear what he would and would not tolerate.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Lastmod says:

        Maybe Scott’s current wife actually, really loves him. Actually enjoys his company and actually likes being married to him. When he was “dating” her, I am sure Scott wasnt going through all the Manosphere stuff “Okay on the 5th date make sure I say this or that; and “vett” properly and “oh, there is a book(s) by real men telling me how to get a wife, better pick those up and read, practice and apply….”

        No, he had a few tons of option TO meet a woman like he married in his current wife. Hard to believe in these forums at times that women can actually be more than a doormat to a husband

        Revolutionary indeed.

        Liked by 2 people

    • redpillboomer says:

      My situation is very similar to yours Scott, right down to the body count figures. My marriage lasted, however it could have easily failed within the first ten years as stuff surfaced that was not completely hidden before marriage, however it was obscured a bit (in the background). Obscured in that I (and to a degree her as well) did not know how to vet beyond surface level red flags, i.e. obvious indicators of issues that might give pause to one as far as proceeding toward an LTR.

      “Still fail. So you never really know. There are no guarantees.”

      In my case, as I’ve mentioned before, my wife had issues with her mother. They weren’t my wife’s fault, as they were her mother’s issues, however they had an impact on her daughter that she (my wife) carried over into our marriage. To be completely fair, I had some issues with my parents that I too carried over into our marriage. So we both showed up with parental issues that surfaced during the early years.

      So you’re right, there are no guarantees. We live in a fallen world with fallen human beings, some having been redeemed by Christ; but all affected by sin in some way, shape or form. Add to this the current culture which has done everything in it’s power to rid itself of any and all guardrails put in place by previous generations to try to give some semblance of relational work-ability, and we now have the resulting sh!t show all over the place out there.

      Liked by 1 person

    • @ Scott

      One of the (primary of many) reasons hamsterbations given was

      “I saved myself for you so I didn’t get to have fun and play the field.”

      Um. Stuff that would have been good to know BEFORE we got married, I am thinking.

      Still fail. So you never really know. There are no guarantees.

      That is a yellow/red flag itself though. If someone is looking at sin as the grass is greener scenario, that usually means she is a nominal Christian.

      I think this can be parsed out if you have the sex conversations. At least I knew my then girlfriend and now wife had the right attitude toward her virginity.

      “I saved myself because I want to obey God and honor my husband” is clearly more indicative of a humble mindset and Christ follower.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Scott says:

        Oh, she said all the right things when we were dating.

        This was a revelation she apparently received much later.

        It’s one of the reasons “vetting” is so weak as a predictor. What is said today is of zero value as an accountability tool 5 seconds (or 8 years in this case) later.

        She was actually quite explicit about this. When I asked her if she really meant things like “death do us part” she said, “I meant it at the time.”

        That’s how it works now. Without the external enforcement through family stigma, law, church ostracizing you can just disregard whatever promises a potential wife makes.

        Liked by 5 people

      • @ Scott,

        “Oh, she said all the right things when we were dating.

        This was a revelation she apparently received much later.

        It’s one of the reasons “vetting” is so weak as a predictor. What is said today is of zero value as an accountability tool 5 seconds (or 8 years in this case) later.

        She was actually quite explicit about this. When I asked her if she really meant things like “death do us part” she said, “I meant it at the time.”

        That’s how it works now. Without the external enforcement through family stigma, law, church ostracizing you can just disregard whatever promises a potential wife makes.”

        Vetting by itself works OK.

        Generally, a woman being teachable and you discipling her tends to be the best indicator of future behavior:

        “Yes. This is more or less what happened

        I was in a band.
        I smoked and partied.
        I was a backsliding “carnal” Christian.
        I wasn’t doing anything serious.
        Her parents were begging her to find another boyfriend, even setting her up with safe bet Christian nerds from church.
        I was not a virgin.
        I cussed.

        She loved sticking it to her parents.

        Once I started getting my act together the passion went in the toilet.”

        This seems to be the major issue.

        She said the right things, but probably more had to be done to identify she was a Churchian and not a Christian.

        The problem for many men I think is that if they’re smitten they tend to overlook or justify yellow and red flags.

        Like

      • Scott says:

        My favorite was “I no longer believe that saying yes at the altar should mean a life prison sentence.”

        Imagine your wife, several years from now, after all the bonding and intimacy you have shared telling you that marriage to you is roughly analogous to life in prison.

        It was awesome.

        Liked by 3 people

      • Scott says:

        Those were some good times. I’d like to sell tickets to it.

        Liked by 2 people

      • locustsplease says:

        @Scott,

        Her: “I don’t want to have sex anymore and I never do the rest of my life.”

        I’m 29 years old and found her cheating on me — this isn’t what I signed up for.

        Like

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        “It’s one of the reasons “vetting” is so weak as a predictor. What is said today is of zero value as an accountability tool 5 seconds (or 8 years in this case) later.

        She was actually quite explicit about this. When I asked her if she really meant things like “death do us part” she said “I meant it at the time.”

        “My favorite was “I no longer believe that saying yes at the altar should mean a life prison sentence.”

        Scott’s experience with the volatility of women’s feelings is why I now have a zero tolerance stance for crossing specific marriage boundaries. That last statement would mean I’d file divorce papers, no questions asked. And I have already been emotionally eviscerated and mourned the brokenness of the relationship so now it’s much easier to apply logic to my boundaries.

        Liked by 1 person

      • thedeti says:

        Imagine your wife, several years from now, after all the bonding and intimacy you have shared telling you that marriage to you is roughly analogous to life in prison.

        Yep. Been there, more or less.

        “You know I love you, but sometimes I’m just not physically attracted to you.”

        (after sex) “It feels like you raped me.”

        (Jumps up immediately after sex to run to the bathroom to squat over the toilet to expel the semen just ejaculated into her)

        Yeah. Not fun. Which is why I’ve told her, explicitly: You say or do anything like that to me ever again, we’re done. Papers will be on file the next day.

        Like

    • Maniac says:

      Scott’s post brings about a question: What if someone “saves themselves” for marriage and then realizes afterward that they don’t really enjoy sex?

      Like

      • Jack says:

        Maniac,

        “Scott’s post brings about a question: What if someone “saves themselves” for marriage and then realizes afterward that they don’t really enjoy sex?”

        It’s hard to imagine anyone with N = 1 would not like sex but I’m sure there are some rare cases out there.

        After my father’s divorce, he once told me, “It’s impossible to know how good your marriage is because you don’t have anything to compare it to.” His assumption was that if he had a harem of wives, then it would be much easier to assess which women are more worthy. However, PUAs have said that women are all different, all having some positives and some negatives, but overall, no one woman is better than others. So I think my father’s statement would also apply for N = 1. For some people, this ignorance is a satisfying bliss, but for others like Scott’s first wife, it raises the FOMO.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Scott says:

        This is one of a handful of arguments in favor of serial monogamy. The rationale of course is that you sample sex partners until you find the right one.

        Then, if things go south, you just jump to the next one.

        It’s not compatible with Christian teaching about sexuality obviously but it is the secular alternative view point, or it was until very recently.

        Now that everything is hook up / virtual / OnlyFans / trans / poly / whatever all bets are off.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Scott says:

        Jack, this is interesting:

        “However, PUAs have said that women are all different, all having some positives and some negatives, but overall, no one woman is better than others.”

        I’ll take your word for it (that PUAs say this) because I don’t pay attention to PUAs. I am woefully ignorant of their stuff.

        But with my experience, I would totally disagree. I can rank order from best to worst sex, every one of them.

        There are some variables in play there. The “best” ones are not always the hottest because the chemistry and enthusiasm very often trumps that.

        And the “worst” are not always the ugliest. It’s complicated.

        But I would never make the “all great just different” argument. There is definitely a hierarchy.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Maniac,

        “Scott’s post brings about a question: What if someone “saves themselves” for marriage and then realizes afterward that they don’t really enjoy sex?”

        The starting point is a hormone panel to check and see if anything is off. Then it’s addressing whether she’s been lying to you about what works for her. I was personally told sex felt good but what was withheld from me was what forms of stimulation were necessary for her, nor did she take any action to make sex what she wanted. This is something to look out for if you are one of the rare men to marry a virgin.

        God made both men and women to enjoy sex, albeit not necessarily with the same urgency. My wife, in the 5 ish or so years she was engaging in the power play of limiting me to 3-4 times per year, was weekly taking matters into her own hands when she felt the need. Bottom line, women like sex so figure out what is wrong before you let her create a wake of damage that will have long term repercussions.

        Liked by 1 person

      • thedeti says:

        It is not normal for a young woman to not like sex. It is not normal for a young woman even to be indifferent toward sex.

        Anyone who tells you that women don’t really like sex, they do it only because men want to do it, is out and out lying to you. Anyone who says women aren’t really all that into sex is a liar. Women love sex with men they’re sexually attracted to/aroused by (same thing, anything said here to the contrary notwithstanding). Women seek out sex with men they’re sexually attracted to/aroused by (same thing).

        There are only two things wrong with women who “don’t like sex”. It’s always either (1) not attracted to the men around them; or (2) serious/severe mental/emotional illness. That’s it. Almost all the time when a woman professes to “not like sex”, it’s because she’s not sexually attracted to you or to the other men she sees. “I don’t like sex” is a euphemism for “I don’t want to have sex with you.” She wants to have sex. It’s just that she doesn’t want sex with you.

        There is no such thing as “vaginismus”. That’s in reality a woman with serious mental health problems and a case of I’mnotattractedtohimitis. Avoid these women.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        thedeti,

        “There is no such thing as “vaginismus”. That’s in reality a woman with serious mental health problems and a case of I’mnotattractedtohimitis. Avoid these women.”

        I wonder if vaginismus is a self-fulfilling prophecy in that someone tells a woman sex will be uncomfortable the first time so she tenses up in anticipation? After the first uncomfortable experience the fear builds. The therapy for this condition is to massage the muscles until they relax, much like using a lacrosse ball to roll out the knots in your back prior to a workout. This is more proof that there is no such thing as a woman who is less than 4 crazy on the hot/crazy curve.

        Like

      • Maniac says:

        My question was just a conversation starter. Thanks to major self-esteem issues caused by bullies — most of them young women — and the psychosexual damage caused by Matthew 5:27-28, the times I’ve actually wanted to have sex have been extremely few and extremely far between.

        It’s a shame — when I was 13, I was pretty much the only one of my male peers who wasn’t exactly put off by the idea of going down on a woman. I really could’ve been something.

        Liked by 1 person

    • Oscar says:

      There are no guarantees.

      Of course not, but a lower probability of divorce is better than a higher probability of divorce.

      Like

  3. info says:

    If sexuality is like fire. And there is a limited energy budget for sexuality. Promiscuity burns it outside the proper place where the fire will be useful.

    Hence leaving their Husbands cold and in the dark as her best is given to other Men.

    The inversion as Satan wants it. Frigidity where fire is meant to be and a wildfire wherein fire doesn’t belong. Both equal rebellions against God even if they are outwardly opposed.

    But in the inversion both equally guilty.

    Liked by 2 people

  4. Scott says:

    Jack, you may actually find this interesting using your insight for a retrospective analysis.

    I don’t want to write a post about it, but you offer some interesting perspectives on stuff like this. Here’s how it went:

    1 = HS Sweetheart, Junior year. Lasted about 5 months. She said she always wanted to know what it was like dating a high-profile football player, and once that was conquered, she got bored. Jettisoned me.

    2 = ONS with a 22 year old college girl at a party (between my junior and senior year, I was 17). She thought I was like 25. This is because I developed my physique and facial features very early. The next morning (the party was at my house) when she found out, she STILL wanted to try a relationship. I said no, citing that my parents would never be OK with having a 22-year-old girlfriend.

    3 = 2nd HS sweetheart, senior year, moved in together after graduation, stayed together almost 2 years total. Fizzled out.

    4 = This was someone who I knew from HS, was 2 years younger and said, “I always had a crush on you back then but was too shy plus you had a girlfriend.” Lasted about a year, said I was too serious.

    5 = Rebound from #4. Super cute and everything but kind of clingy and annoying. This was my drummer in a band/smoking, “he’s so complex and hurt from his break up” phase. I broke up because of guilt over the fact that I was just using her to get over the previous one.

    6 = First wife. Married my “best friend.” Re-committed myself to church, finished my bachelor’s, and started preparing myself for seminary and ministry as a music director/church counselor/youth guy. Lot of good it did me.

    After that, things got weird. I had about 7 years of ONSs, FB/FWBs and a few LTRs scattered in there. I maximized everything I had learned about women to get what I wanted, and had a lot of it. I felt bad about it, but obviously not bad enough not to do it. I call this “sub optimal sexual situations” phase. I figured, I swung and missed on marriage, so fvck it.

    Truth is, at first I figured Mychael would be just another hot girlfriend that wouldn’t work out but here I am, married almost 16 years with 4 kids. And we are crazy about each other.

    Liked by 2 people

    • feeriker says:

      Looking at your descriptions of your past relationships, it seems that Marriage #1, the one that from all outward appearances should have been the one that endured, was the one that ultimately caused you the most pain and suffering when it imploded. Do you believe this was this the case? If so, it serves a damning indictment (and more sadly still, a stereotype) of the contemporary church’s inability (or more likely unwillingness) to do what a true family does and intervene for the sake of the family’s health and stability. In other words, a spiritually healthy church would have gone to the ends of the earth and beyond to have tried to help the two of you save your marriage. Instead it appears that they either stood back and did nothing, or worse, actively aided and abetted its destruction. The result was to not only cause you to stumble, but to alienate you from the faith for a long time. I recall the Apostle Paul having some severe words for church bodies that did this sort of thing.

      Liked by 3 people

      • Scott says:

        Oh yes, its been discussed here by me before, and I was open about with Adam Pigott when he interviewed me.

        I have never claimed to be a perfect husband. I was working some serious sh!t out about my character in my 20s, like most men. I was not drunk, I did not abuse, was not mean. I did not yell. I had a job. I loved my wife with everything I had.

        The elders failed to even try to help us.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Scott says:

        I do have to be precise. There was one elder (of 5) who heard her complaints about me and said to her,

        “So you have a standard nice guy American husband. All guys are like that. What you are describing is common marital stuff. What’s the problem?”

        But he was the anomaly. He voted to pressure her to stay and work it out, the other 4 washes their hands if it.

        Liked by 1 person

    • “6 = first wife. Married my “best friend.” Re committed myself to church, finished my bachelor’s, started preparing myself for seminary and ministry as a music director/church counselor/youth guy. Lot of good it did me.”

      I think you might be underselling this.

      If I remember correctly (and I may be wrong) didn’t you get the garbage choreplay and other bad marital advice instead of actually leading/heading the marriage? Nominal Christian wife who wanted to play the field also probably played a role, but this didn’t help.

      Any “Chad” has the capacity for a relationship or marriage to collapse if they start acting like a SIMP.

      There’s dozens if not hundreds of pastors who have their marriages collapse because even if they have the celebrity status of pastors they are white knights to their wife’s queen. All women almost inevitably get tired of a man with no backbone or leadership skills.

      Like

      • Scott says:

        I’ve never really seen myself as a Chad

        I’m a strong seven, weak 8 on a good hair day

        Like

      • I’ve never really seen myself as a Chad

        I’m a strong seven, weak 8 on a good hair day

        Eh, doesn’t matter what you think. It matters how women treat you.

        By all accounts (appearance, experience, etc.) you’re a Chad. Get good responses from most women. No trouble getting dates. Normies and sub5 don’t really get ONS either so another indicator.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Jack says:

        Scott is a Chad in denial because of the implicit incongruency with his faith. Coming to Christ required him to own up to his Chadhood.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Oscar says:

        Have you ever played a sport with a natural athlete who can’t understand why you can’t do what he makes look easy? Yeah. It’s like that.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Lastmod says:

        “Normies and sub5 don’t really get ONS either so another indicator.”

        True. DJ’d a show this past Saturday down in the Silver Lake are of Los Angeles. Older crowd. 30’s thru 50’s. Maybe 100 people. I was one of three DJ’s for the night. Mod (British sixties RnB), Soul, rare Motown….

        Crowd was mostly men. The women that were there either came with a guy, and the few men that dared approach them to chat, ask to dance were all shot down except for that 20% or so.

        I even saw one dude move in on a gal who came with another guy. Poor guy. He didn’t stand a chance with the one who moved in on his date.

        When I did spin a slow one, it was “What Becomes of the Broken Hearted?” from 1966 by Jimmy Ruffin. Fifty or so guys just out there singing along. Raising pints, lighters, singing along. Quite a sight……..

        These guys could dance. They all were not mouth breathers. It was Mod, so it wasnt a flip-flop and shorts attired crowd. Between sets, most talking to me about their scooters, thanking me for this track or that track…. asking me about some shows, cracking jokes….. hardly talk about “Star Wars” and ‘Star Trek” and “science”…..

        One guy saw me spin up in Santa Rosa back in 2020. He said “came out when I saw your name on the flyer as one of the DJ’s”.

        These men looks wise, all sub 5. Well, according to women…. and most women today consider most men “ugly”.

        All your numbers DS don’t speak to reality. It might look good for a grad school paper, or “study” but in the real world, and very real life…… the numbers speak differently. Why? Well self reporting numbers always are skewed…..

        Like

  5. “It is clearly evident that if a marriage is to succeed over the long haul, then husband and wife will have to stick to the biblical model, or make the transition to the biblical model at some point, or else be doomed to dysfunction.”

    This is the crux. Probably “always has been.” Insert meme here.

    You have to have a husband and wife both committed to God and making it work.

    Yes, it can sometimes work if the husband is a strong head and the wife a nominal Christian or non-Christian (e.g. 1 Cor 7 on sanctifying the wife). Yeah, it can sometimes work if the wife is a Christian and the husband is nominal or not (e.g 1 Pet 3 unbelieving husband, 1 Cor 7 on sanctifying the wife). But you don’t want either scenario.

    Husbands and wives have some influence, but the influence can’t make someone do what is right. It can only influence.

    Liked by 2 people

    • info says:

      Women’s Messiah complex like they are Jesus when trying to fix a “bad boy” but they can’t admit that its said “badness” that attracted them in the first place. And their conception of Goodness actually is anti-Masculine, contrary to the Saints in Scripture who were Good Manly Men like David’s Mighty Men. Hence when they successfully change their “bad boy” they stop being attracted to him.

      Liked by 3 people

      • Scott says:

        Yes. This is more or less what happened

        I was in a band
        I smoked and partied
        I was a backsliding “carnal” Christian
        I wasn’t doing anything serious
        Her parents were begging her to find another boyfriend, even setting her up with safe bet Christian nerds from church
        I was not a virgin
        I cussed

        She loved sticking it to her parents.

        Once I started getting my act together the passion went in the toilet

        Liked by 3 people

      • info says:

        @Scott

        And also losing your manliness too. Because of said flawed perception of good.

        Like

  6. Scott says:

    OT

    If you haven’t seen it, “Father Stu” (streaming now on Netflix) is fantastic

    The story begins and ends right here in Helena, too. Fr Stu was raised here and died while assigned to the Helena diocese in 2014, the year before I came here and bought my property.

    He was 50.

    With the benefit of hindsight it’s clear what God had in store for him. But I doubt he had such clarevoyance while he suffered through it at the time. To persevere like that even when your own hierarchy doubted your ability is incredible.

    Great story.

    Like

  7. Scott says:

    This basically sounds like…

    “You didn’t vet right.”

    Which is understandable because it is a defense mechanism. “I vetted right so this won’t happen to me.”

    Everyone reading here hopes your wife doesn’t change her mind and go off the rails crazy. But she might.

    Liked by 3 people

    • Scott says:

      And no one hopes for that more than me, since I lived through it and came out the other side with scars and wounds that will not heal while I am on this earth.

      I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy.

      Liked by 2 people

    • Jack says:

      @Scott,

      Re: Vetting as a defense mechanism.

      Sometimes, I think vetting has more value as a psychological buffer than it does as a quality control inventory. If a wife goes berzerk, it will be that one thing that you overlooked, or were totally ignorant of, or that she lied about, or you thought, “Ahh… that won’t be too much of a problem…”

      Liked by 1 person

      • Scott says:

        I’ll buy that.

        I went through so many dark phases after my divorce, so many maladaptive and endlessly painful psychological processes, I generally try not to think about it anymore.

        There was “I drove her into the arms of another man” phase.

        “I cannot picture growing old without her” phase.

        “She’s a crazy b!tch who ruined my life” phase.

        And many more. Then when you think “It’s all gone”, it just starts again.

        But one thing I know now. It had nothing to do with not vetting properly. In another society my guess is she wouldn’t have done it. She really was genuinely sweet and committed in the beginning. I think Dalrock’s “the whispers” got to her.

        Liked by 4 people

      • redpillboomer says:

        Vetting is obviously not foolproof. It’s more a way for mitigating relational risk, but not eliminating it. People are not the same five-ten-fifteen years down the line.

        Liked by 1 person

    • “Everyone reading here hopes your wife doesn’t change her mind and go off the rails crazy. But she might.”

      Vetting is for eliminating obvious past and/or present negative behaviors or situations that can potentially indicate issues. It mitigates some risk, not all of it. Obviously, there are still 20% of virgin women who divorce… but this is in comparison to 30-50+% divorce rates for N count 2-10+.

      We’re looking at statistical probabilities here.

      There’s men who stop being leaders of their own families and get obese and their wives will never divorce them. But we would also expect that a greater percentage of women would divorce those types of husbands than if said husband had stayed a strong leader and fit.

      I don’t think anyone has every tried to paint vetting as 100% foolproof method, but if they did they were wrong. FAST/Teachable has always been one of the primary indicators going forward.

      Liked by 2 people

  8. feeriker says:

    “I think Dalrock’s “the whispers” got to her.”

    It disturbing to think about how much of “the whispers” probably originated from “Christian” women.

    Liked by 3 people

    • info says:

      With the appearance of Godliness yet vulnerability to Spiritual threats. Demons can whisper in their ears. Feminist friends are the wormtongue of many women.

      Liked by 2 people

  9. Hey Catacomb Heretic says:

    To Catacomb Resident who said in his most recent blog post “Jack’s blog is not the only place where I read about the dynamics of human sexual relationships. Rather, it’s just one of the best sources I’ve found.”

    And also “I’m a total alien, apparently.” Open your combox. Not allowing comments makes you an alien. It makes you live in a bubble like the Left, like all the politicians in their ivory towers who never talk to a blue collar person. That’s why you are so filled with Judaizing heresy, because you never talk to real Christians who don’t worship Jews as mini-gods.

    Like

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