Roundup on Attraction and Marital Sanctification

Idolizing sex leads to a bad marriage, or none at all.

Readership: All
Theme: Perspectives on the Topic of Attraction
Author’s Note: This post contains excerpts from an email exchange with Rowena.
Length: 1,400 words
Reading Time: 8 minutes

Overview

This mini-series on Perspectives on the Topic of Attraction has gone over schedule and into September. There is much more to discuss on this topic, but I’ll have to wrap things up in this post.  In the last quarter of the year, I will come back to several noteworthy ideas and points that were raised.

On a side note, I’ve noticed that since I/we spun off on the topic of Attraction, this has become a hot topic around the secular Manosphere and especially the secular Femosphere.  Not sure if I/we inspired this or if it’s merely a coincidence.

Looking back at the posts and the comments, there were 2 separate topics that came up, and these two topics were then conflated to form a third topic.

Topic 1 – How can a community foster the formation of healthy, sanctified marriages?

Jack’s earlier posts on this topic emerged from his theme on Masculine Authority and Responsibility.

Topic 2 – Attraction / Sexual Attraction / Sexual Arousal

Some readers picked up Jack’s verbiage about “guiding attraction” in the first topic and ran with it.  The main argument regurgitated the Classic Manospherian adage that sexual attraction is either there or it is not, and nothing can be done to change this. This reframe completely hijacked Jack’s (poorly worded) point about guiding young people through the confusion created by sexual attraction and towards sanctification in marriage.  Nevertheless, Jack observed that this older topic was still hot and rife with confusion, and adapted to it.

Topic 3 – Is a blindingly intense sexual attraction absolutely necessary to have a healthy sex life and/or a sanctified marriage?

Summary

There is a general consensus that it is very difficult to have a good marriage in today’s context.  Thedeti has insisted that a lack of sexual attraction is the primary reason for this.  But Rowena and others have said the reason is not lack of visceral sexual attraction, but is because today the whole focus of the marital relationship is on desires, feelings, and visceral sexual attraction (or the lack of these things), and NOT on the duties and responsibilities of marriage. Especially from women.

Topic 3 – “YES!”

In his comments, Thedeti assumes that raw visceral sexual attraction is absolutely necessary to have a successful marriage.  Basically, this argument plays off Σ Frame Axioms 7 and 32 (see footnotes below), with the assumption that Sex = Marriage.  Thus, wives who lack sexual attraction to their husbands will drag their non-curling toes in the bedroom, and this eventually erodes the quality and sanctification of the marriage.

This conflates Topics 1 and 2, and this is what has created the disagreement that spilled out in Topic 3.

Topic 3 – “NO!”

The opposing opinion bases their argument on Σ Frame Maxims 13 and 34 (see footnotes).  Thus, sanctification relies on both a husband and wife’s adherence to Headship more than it does on sexual attraction.  Just because a woman has strong visceral sexual attraction to a man – that does not mean she will not detonate. Examples for proof of this are given by Scott’s first marriage and SFC Ton’s marriage.

We could also consider Hollywood personalities to argue that sexual attraction is necessary but insufficient.  Brad Pitt is a 10 just in looks. He’s capable of generating raw visceral attraction. And yet! He has had 2 DIVORCES! In the case of second one – he lived with Angelina for more than 7 years — even had kids with her — all before he married her. All the raw visceral sexual attraction he generated was NOT enough. OTOH, Hollywood stars represent a highly nuanced context that may not apply for most readers.

Concluding Statements

The despair most men are facing is NOT that they are not generating raw visceral sexual attraction. It is because…

  1. Our sex-centric culture has made sex and sexual attraction into an all-consuming idol.
  2. Marriage has come to have more CONS than PROS.
  3. Women are pursuing feminist values and are not holding up to their end in marriage.

In closing, I’ll relay this story from Rowena’s email.  She mentioned that her 2 sons are pretty high on the LAMPS scale.  She has no doubt they could generate raw visceral sexual attraction in women. Her main concern is not whether they could marry, but whether they could marry WELL.  She questions whether any particular woman who grew up in a Western gynocentric culture would be prepared to fulfil her DUTIES and RESPONSIBILITIES in a marriage to her son.  To her, the question is, “Would she make a suitable wife?”  Rowena said this is why the women in her family are trying very hard to work on this – to be the older women from Titus 2:3-5 who set an example, teach, and guide the younger women. Their sons deserve better. She says this is not an easy task, but we must trust in the power of the Holy Spirit to do our best.

Now we’ve come full circle back to Jack’s original topic.  How can we create a community that…

  1. Values Headship and teaches it to young men and women.
  2. Helps steer young people around the lies and obstacles (like the implicit deceptions of sexual attraction) in order to find marital sanctification.

Thus, the theme for September will be Redemptive Masculinity.

Thanks to everyone who participated in this insightful discussion.

Footnotes

Σ Frame Axiom 7: The natural interaction defines the relationship structure according to which model it fits best, not what we think it is or hope for it to be.

Σ Frame Axiom 13, AKA Jack’s Law of HeadshipAs a consequence of fitting God’s Covenant order, Headship and Tingly Respect both yield a home environment filled with God’s glory, peace, and presence, producing a sanctified marriage and providing a superiorly ideal setting for raising godly children.

Σ Frame Axiom 32, AKA Deti’s Third Law of Relationships: Most women marry men they aren’t sexually attracted to and don’t really want to have sex with. They’re willing to have sex with those men for a while, until they get what they want. Then, after they get what they want, her sexual withholding ensues, the hideous truth comes out, and marriages, families – and the men and children in them, are destroyed.

Σ Frame Maxim 34: Women rely on Men’s Masculine Frame for Redemptive Introspection.

Related

About Jack

Jack is a world traveling artist, skilled in trading ideas and information, none of which are considered too holy, too nerdy, nor too profane to hijack and twist into useful fashion. Sigma Frame Mindsets and methods for building and maintaining a masculine Frame
This entry was posted in Agency, Attraction, Calculated Risk Taking, Choosing a Partner or Spouse, Churchianity, Collective Strength, Conflict Management, Courtship and Marriage, Decision Making, Discernment, Wisdom, Ethical Systems, Female Power, Feminism, Fundamental Frame, Headship and Patriarchy, Holding Frame, Intersexual Dynamics, Introspection, Male Power, Manosphere, Masculine Disciplines, Personal Domain, Power, Purpose, Questions from Readers, Relationships, Reviews, Sanctification & Defilement, Sex, Sphere of Influence, Strategy, The Power of God. Bookmark the permalink.

35 Responses to Roundup on Attraction and Marital Sanctification

  1. Red Pill Apostle says:

    Σ Frame Axiom 13, AKA Jack’s Law of Headship: As a consequence of fitting God’s Covenant order, Headship and Tingly Respect both yield a home environment filled with God’s glory, peace, and presence, producing a sanctified marriage and providing a superiorly ideal setting for raising godly children.

    Σ Frame Axiom 32, AKA Deti’s Third Law of Relationships: Most women marry men they aren’t sexually attracted to and don’t really want to have sex with. They’re willing to have sex with those men for a while, until they get what they want. Then, after they get what they want, her sexual withholding ensues, the hideous truth comes out, and marriages, families – and the men and children in them, are destroyed.

    Σ Frame Maxim 34: Women rely on Men’s Masculine Frame for Redemptive Introspection.”

    I have live all three of these points at various times in the same marriage, or at least 13 and 34 with a variant of 32. She wanted something and increased the frequency until after she got it at which point the marriage went back to being sexless for a time. I guess I am an odd manospherian case study in that my behavior, both as a man who put up with his wife’s behavior which had disastrous results and as a man who forcefully implemented God’s order on his household, altered the course of the marriage. Because of my own experiences, I can see that a man has more sway over his wife than he thinks, especially if certain preconditions are met (low to no N count and a younger bride). But this all has to start with what he believes both about himself and about what he sees as possible.

    Liked by 5 people

  2. Sharkly says:

    A marriage can be pictured like two oxen yoked together, or like two chain links joined together. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

    Throughout most of church history the divorce rate generally ran at around half of a percent to two percent. Only in about the last hundred years did the rate abruptly skyrocket creating a timeline/rate graph that since the time of Christ would now resemble a hockey-stick. The divorce rate has quickly soared up to 50% of U.S. marriages, to the point where marriage has begun to fall out of practice, being avoided by many in the general public. I recall some churchians were bragging a while back that the churchian rate of divorce was lower, around 38%. It seems that as the marriage rate drops, the U.S. secular divorce rate has peaked. The U.S. now has the third highest divorce rate in the world, and the current average length of a marriage in the U.S. is only 8.2 years.

    Anyhow, due to Feminism, and women’s flighty and defiling nature, women are usually the weakest link. Few men will, by nature, trouble their own homes. However, due to more boys being brought up in broken and dysfunctional Feminist homes, the number of psychologically dysfunctional young men is undoubtedly on the rise.

    My guess is that the divorce rate in U.S. churches tracks about one fourth below and a couple decades behind our society’s divorce rate, so while our society’s divorce rate is now dropping a bit, the rate in the church may not have peaked yet.

    Like

  3. redpillboomer says:

    “Now we’ve come full circle back to Jack’s original topic. How can we create a community that… Values Headship and teaches it to young men and women. Helps steer young people around the lies and obstacles (like the implicit deceptions of sexual attraction) in order to find marital sanctification.”

    Jack, I think this is the crux of the problem, and I don’t think it’s “How do we create the community that does those things?” Any “community” we create in today’s cultural climate is going to get over run, or at least compromised fairly quickly, by the current secular culture’s views and mores. I think it is beyond man’s ability to fix now, only God can do something; and I mean supernaturally do something about it.

    That doesn’t mean we throw in the towel altogether, we help one person at a time, and a handful of men (maybe some women along the way too) here and there; that’s about all WE can do, of course, HE can do what we cannot do in our own natural strength. One of my favorite verses I think captures the possibility:

    Ephesians 3:20-21
    20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Oscar says:

      “Any “community” we create in today’s cultural climate is going to get over run, or at least compromised fairly quickly, by the current secular culture’s views and mores. I think it is beyond man’s ability to fix now, only God can do something; and I mean supernaturally do something about it.”

      I’ve observed the opposite happening at the local level. Obviously, that hasn’t registered at the national level yet, but given time, it will.

      Like

  4. info says:

    Can’t have marriage without attractiveness. But neither without Godly character either.

    Like

    • whiteguy1 says:

      Exactly, like Scott and Ton, my ex was sexually attracted to me at the hot and bothered level pretty much all the time… yet spent a year planning her divorce (found evidence a couple of months ago about this).

      So even a woman who had a raw sexual attraction to her husband, a claim of a pious Christian woman, planned and filed for divorce after 17 years of marriage with kids.

      The only thing we can figure is she couldn’t deal with her own jealousy when I unplugged.

      Like

      • Jack says:

        whiteguy1,

        “The only thing we can figure is she couldn’t deal with her own jealousy when I unplugged.”

        You mean, unplugged from the Blue Pill matrix? Most women are glad when their husband gets a Red Pill clue, but I’ve heard some women don’t take that well at all. I guess that’s because they can no longer run the marriage.

        For me, my wife became more insolent and rebellious after I started getting Red Pilled. The rough patch lasted 2-3 years. But over time, she’s settled down rather nicely.

        Liked by 1 person

      • info says:

        The Fruit of the Tree reveals its true state. A bad tree produces bad fruit. No matter their claims.

        I don’t even know if those proported pious Christian woman was even baptised with the Holy Spirit that would have convicted her and brought her to repentance. But He didn’t. So they aren’t saved.

        I believe some commentators here know of some apparently “Worldly” Men. But there was an air about them that indicates their salvation. As if the Holy Ghost helps them give off that aura.

        Liked by 1 person

  5. whiteguy1 says:

    Jack, I think you are on the correct path here, I think we have analyzed the problem to death here, we all ‘know’ what the issues are. So now I think the collective ‘we’ (older Christian Red Pill men) need to brainstorm some solutions to the young men who desire marriage in this fallen western world.
    The deck is stacked against the brother in Christ in this world, but lets be honest, when hasn’t it been? The devil has been attacking us since the beginning, he’s just taken a different tact these last 150 years.

    At this point, for any young brother who’s heart is leading him to marriage, this is what I would recommend:

    — Build your LAMPS/PSALM and frame. Be the MAN God wants you to be. The Holy Spirit will be a light that others will notice, build your frame with this foundation.
    — Leadership… Churches are cucked… Don’t bother trying to lead in churchian.org, but find other places in your life to excel. (The ONLY exception is if your church isn’t a Blue Pill beta factory — one like Oscar talks about.) — This needs more expansion.
    — When you find ‘the girl’, observe, observe, observe… You need at least 12-18 months of observational data to see how she is… Cluster B types can’t keep the act up for more than 6 months as a general rule. If you’ve known her family or can get more data (spending time with her family, her spending time with yours, private investigator, no really), then this time frame can be shortened. But as soon as you get more than a couple of red flags, CUT YOUR LOSSES and move on. It will hurt for a time, but sunk cost fallacies are a thing when the heart is involved.
    — The girl has got to be pretty darn ‘hot’ for you. A for instance, you’ve set a limit of ‘second base’ but she’s constantly wanting you get a ‘home run’. Gonna be hard but stay strong and tell her! Don’t explain, just say this is my limit, I’m waiting for marriage to have some real fun!

    If your girl has passed this screening process, and you want to claim this girl as yours (don’t ever be afraid to use this language with a girl, they eat it up!) It’s time to start talking to attorneys. PRE-NUPs are your friend here (even if you don’t have two nickels to rub together, still do it!) They might not work, or they will, but what it does is establish your frame here. The purpose here is to discourage her feelings from getting in front of her pragmatic views of the world (remember how men and women view love differently). If she balks or says no to a prenup, then NEXT her and walk away. She’s supposed to follow you.

    — Prenups talk with an attorney, NEVER mention kids/children in them EVER. This can give a Blue Pilled judge a justification for tossing it out. You will want two attorneys involved, one for her and one for you (this is key), and have it signed 6 months before you get married, with her being video’ed signing the documents so as to show no ‘duress’.
    — Then after the marriage, follow up within 6 months with a post-nup agreement, with both of you signing the same documents as before. Another key here. Remember the purpose of these legal proceedings is to show she’s got agency to the court (remember the girls want to be just like the boys, well here ya go) AND to keep reminding her that if she follows her feelz, it’s going to ‘cost her’. Deterrence is a thing, it works for dictators (heh) and for girls.
    — Update that post-nup every couple of years (no more than 3) or when something substantial in your financial life changes, like one of you inherits money, a big promotion, buying a big property, etc.

    Look, this is going to cost money to hire two attorney’s every couple of years, but it’s going to be cheaper in the long run. (I spent over $120K on my divorce, just trying to protect what little I had!) So do the work up front.

    When in the marriage, take care of business and maintain frame, lean on Trinity, it’s the BEST foundation for everything you do.

    Will your marriage be successful (as you see it)? Maybe, or maybe not. Your girl has got agency so she could still blow it up. BUT do the work and be the MAN God wants you to be, and you can go before the throne and say you did your best with the hand you were dealt.

    Jack, if this is too long or has swerved too far off topic, we can save it for another day.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Joe2 says:

      “Then after the marriage, follow up within 6 months with a post-nup agreement, with both of you signing the same documents as before.”

      Sounds logical, but it can and may backfire big time. She can casually say (even laughingly) she really doesn’t care to sign it (doesn’t feelz good about doing it), it’s unnecessary, don’t you love me? etc.

      (1) She may keep finding excuses to delaying signing. What is your course of action?
      (2) She eventually does agree to sign, but at the signing she casually mentions to the attorneys that she really doesn’t care to sign it (doesn’t feelz good about doing it), and now thinks this whole pre-nup agreement was a mistake. The signing would be made under duress. What is your course of action?

      I see huge legal bills and the pre-nup getting voided by her attorney.

      Like

      • whiteguy1 says:

        Risk in everything you do. Nothing is this world is risk free.

        You talk about prenups during the 12-18 screening process. Tell her in no uncertain terms will you marry without one. If she drags her feet, well then ya WALK. Period. End of story. And if she gives all the usual blue pill, boomer reasons, chivalry, churchian, phase of the moon, IT DOESN”T MATTER. NO PRE/POST NUP, NO MARRIAGE, you will walk away. Remember our only ‘power’ right now in this feminized world is our commitment. The courts have screwed this up big time but all you can do is things to minimize your risks.

        Up front, she’s got to agree to sign the post nup too… If she doesn’t after she agreed too… NUKE the marriage then and there. She married under false pretenses, meaning the marriage was never legitimate and your conscience is clear. Abundance mentality… You’ve got one thing in the world that EVERY single girl wants — commitment from a Man.

        If she does mention this, jokes, etc. NUKE THE MARRIAGE FROM ORBIT. And make it clear you will do this.

        Once again as a Christian man, divorce shouldn’t ever seem like a option, BUT we live in a fallen world, with fallen women, who also lie, cheat, and steal, just with a lot more subtlety. So if her choice is to lie to you to get your commitment, then I believe you can declare the union a fraud. At this point, since the state is involved, you are just dealing with paperwork. God knows the deal. He told us not to live in slavery to an unbeliever.

        “Let our yes be yes and our no be no.” These words are to ALL believers, women and men. It might be harder for a woman to do this, but it’s still a command from Christ. All you can do is you. If a man is serious about marriage, then to protect himself, his wife, and his children from the world and her feelz, you have to stand strong and be willing to walk away. Especially if she bore false witness and lied to get your commitment (which is just as bad as a man lying to get into a woman’s pants).

        Liked by 1 person

  6. whiteguy1 says:

    Yes, when I unplugged from the blue pill matrix. She could no longer ‘run’ things. But she was also a low IQ cluster B type… so my marriage is an outlier.

    Like

  7. Rowena says:

    I think you have good advice. But trying to reconcile between what whiteguy1 sir and thedeti sir have said. We have visceral sexual attraction on one side and vetting which needs to be done as to her character. According to thedeti sir – if she has raw visceral sexual attraction to you – its pretty much all rules out the window.

    Question 1 – Assuming you want to wait till you get married to consummate the relationship – which the Bible commands us to do, do you think 12 -18 months is way too long.

    Again – you said observe her. From a distance? Not date her. That sounds good. It would give you a chance to vet her character but give you space not to get “carried away”. The Problem with that – godly women are slim pickings these days. Unlikely a girl like that is going to be single for 12-18 months. She will either be dating someone or married in that timeframe

    Question 2 – about her pushing the limits and you holding fast. If she is a virgin, in today’s culture – it is because she is holding fast to her faith!!! Do you really think she is going to be trying to get a home run for 12-18 months? And you are going to valiantly resist this woman who I am assuming as a man you desire – else you would not be thinking of marrying her. For 12-18 months?

    If one is really interested in purity – (and that does not mean how far I can go without caving); BOTH should be having boundaries – and if there is ANY kind of attraction – trying desperately to hold fast!!!

    Just asking – because there needs to be a sweet spot between time for vetting of character but not too much before the inevitable fornication happens (From what I understand that was the failure of purity movement – the stress of staying pure while dating indefinitely). Just wondering what that sweet spot is?

    Like

    • Red Pill Apostle says:

      Rowena,

      Your questions seem to come from a position of solutions existing, which is a common viewpoint. This is a fallacy. There are no real solutions, because as soon as one adjusts to address one issue another comes up. Such is your question on the 12-18 month waiting period, which I believe whiteguy1 is suggesting as a period of dating a women as the “observation” time, opening up the greater chance for pre-marital sex.

      The only rational way to think about problems is through trade offs, because that is what every decision in life is, a trade off. Making a godly woman wait 12-18 months when she could pick up another man and get married to him in less time risks her going with the other guy. The risk is that maybe she’s putting on an act and hurrying doesn’t give a man enough time to see her true colors which could mean the divorce risk is actually much higher. The man gets to pick which risk he wants to take on, losing the godly woman or getting hitched to a woman who only played being godly.

      The approach that gives a man the the least amount of risk, is for a man to tailor the trade offs he’ll make to the individual woman. Maybe a man finds a godly woman and is willing to move at a faster pace with her but has a firm boundary of not signing a marriage license in an attempt to minimize the power of the state in his marriage. Sure he might risk losing her, but if she wants the state’s power on her side and for him to face that risk, he should probably pass on her.

      Whenever any one of us tackles a problem it is wise for us to remember that we are creating another with our suggested course of action. The trick is to know which types of problems God has best created you to handle and then make those trade offs in life that allow us to avoid the problems we do not handle well, while dealing with those that we do.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Jack says:

        RPA,

        “Your questions seem to come from a position of solutions existing, which is a common viewpoint. This is a fallacy. There are no real solutions, because as soon as one adjusts to address one issue another comes up.”

        It IS a fallacy from a logical viewpoint. We have already come to the conclusion that there is no logical solution to the mating mish mash. We must move beyond the confines of the logical mind and embrace faith, hope, and trust. Some will see this as a stupid recipe for disaster, but for those led by the Spirit, we must believe “all things are possible”. This is exactly why Christian Mysticism is growing in popularity. Rowena shows great faith that God will not abandon His people. I would not continue to host this blog if I didn’t believe there was still hope in spite of these dark times, and that someone, somewhere would benefit from the things we discuss here.

        I hate to say this because it will seem condemnatory to those of us who have suffered through the current crisis, but as I grow older, I believe more and more that if it seems like God has abandoned you in some way, chances are you weren’t trusting Him in that area of your life. If a reader feels condemned by this statement, then I urge you to pray about it and ask God to reveal to you exactly how you failed to trust Him, or else, why that suffering was necessary. You may or may not get a satisfying answer, but it doesn’t hurt to ask and seek.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        “We have already come to the conclusion that there is no logical solution to the mating mish mash. We must move beyond the confines of the logical mind and embrace faith, hope, and trust. Some will see this as a stupid recipe for disaster, but for those led by the Spirit, we must believe “all things are possible”. This is exactly why Christian Mysticism is growing in popularity. Rowena shows great faith that God will not abandon His people.”

        This rings a little bit too much of the theologically dubious “let go and let God” mindset. The reality is that God is with us always, even in the times we feel he’s abandoned us. Another reality is that God has chosen, and I do not have not a clue why, to work through people to fill out his kingdom and that includes men acting wisely should they choose they want to married.

        There is no conflict between faith and understanding that every action we take is a trade off with other options. It’s called opportunity cost in business and FOMO if you’re a millennial. Every decision we make in life is a trade off and, if we’re wise, those trade offs work more in our favor than against it.

        I’d argue that understanding life is one of trade offs actually requires greater faith. When the veil is stripped away and the idea of solutions fade, a man is left with uncertainty and God who has promised to be with his children and to use all things to our good.

        So the logical course of action when it comes to the dating and marriage mish mash is to pick your trade offs wisely and trust that God is working the events of your life for your own sanctification. This is why I counseled a man should chose the trade offs he’ll make based on the individual woman (assuming he’s at the point where marriage is something he wants). Looking back at my own life, I’d have declined the bigger wedding ceremony and opted for a very small gathering in a backyard that would have cost under $2k. I’d have risked Mrs. Apostle walking, but I’d have known what she really valued in her heart. See, trade offs and one that would have required my trust in God’s providence.

        Liked by 2 people

    • Joe2 says:

      Rowena,

      There is an old saying regarding estate and garage sales. And that is, if you see something you like chances are very good that someone else will also like the same item. You have to act rather quickly because if you hesitate too long you will lose out and the item will be gone. Often times that means making a snap judgment about the item.

      The same is true with regarding vetting her character. If a man likes her, chances are other men like her too. The competition is fierce and while it may be possible to hold out and not fornicate that doesn’t stop other men from moving in. Thus, he misses out and she goes with another man while the vetting is in progress.

      I think 12 – 18 months is much too long because quality women or those who appear to be quality women are snatched up in a heartbeat. The longer a man hesitates before making up his mind he eventually will find himself looking in a pool of women who, like estate sale and garage sale items on the last day, have been picked over and are not wanted.

      Liked by 1 person

      • whiteguy1 says:

        Yeah, none of this is hard and fast on timelines. Let’s just say what you want is to make sure you aren’t thinking with your ‘little head’.

        My parents just celebrated their 49th wedding anniversary. From they day they met to the day they were married… 6 weeks. So a total outlier. I tried to emulate that (6 months)… and almost got zero’ed out, with my teenage daughters alienated from me, after a 17 year hellish marriage… So I might be a bit jaded.

        Let’s take a possible scenario. Young engineer 2 yrs out of college… 24… He’s got a bit of game, and has good prospects for his future career growth, he’s maximized his LAMPS… but still a junior engineer. He doesn’t attend church(ian) anymore (but is a believer).

        He meets a young lady, out, not at church, let’s say at the grocery store, cause she works there. He asks her out, she says yes. Now over the next 6 months they spend lots of time together, he meets some of her siblings and parents, and he’s got a good ‘feeling’ about the girl. He finds a ‘reasonable’ church for them to attend, leads in some bible studies with her, etc. etc. (prescreen). Now he’s thinking hard about making babies with this girl. Should he pop the question and get married in the next few months??? NO NO NO. Now it’s time to lay out the frame of the marriage, what he expects, pre/post nups. etc. …

        If she’s agreeable to all this then he starts the clock… gets the lawyers lined up, etc. etc. …

        And Joe, you are coming at this with a sacristy mindset. There are eligible girls showing up on the market EVERY SINGLE DAY. Young men need to remember this and put it in their brains at foundational level. It will seep out of their pores and the girls will notice.

        Like

      • Jack says:

        “You have to act rather quickly because if you hesitate too long you will lose out and the item will be gone.”

        This happened to me many MANY times because I was marriage minded and had the mindset to go slow. Looking back, I can see that most of them were looking for more adventure and excitement (e.g. game, sex, etc.), so maybe I dodged a bullet. Women follow their feeelings in all of this, so sex is assumed to be part of the deal. But there were a couple of these girls that turned out to be gems. So I regret missing the opportunity with them. For example, one girl told me, “My body follows my heart. If I love a man, then it is natural for me to have sex with him.” At the time, this statement alarmed me, but what I didn’t understand is that (1) her heart was true, (2) that man was ME, and (3) that she not only wanted to have sex, but she also wanted to marry me. She knew she was in control of sex, but that I was in control of the commitment part. IOW, she trusted me, but I was too naive to “get it” (both figuratively and literally).

        In summary of my experience with this, I’ll say that when girls get it in their head that they’re “ready“, then things happen quickly according to her prerogatives (i.e. either sex or “marriage first”). For good marriage minded women, this happens between the ages of 20-22. I’d like to say that if a Christian girl is wanting or having sex with a man, then she’s also thinking or hoping that the man will marry her. But it’s hard to tell on a case by case basis, or at least, it was for me. I used to think that girls who were open to having premarital sex were simply bad girls, and my hesitancy in that area is why I lost out. But looking back, I can see that some of those girls settled down quickly into a happy marriage, so I think they would have made a dandy wife if I had been more proactive. Again, it was hard to tell at the time.

        In conclusion, I do think it is possible to vet too hard, wait too long, and be too conscientious / morally rigid (as I was). I think it is better to pay attention to the trust and bonding and work to preserve that. I think that is why some couples move quickly and still go the distance — the trust and bonding is strong, and they stick with that and prioritize it. But these days, the times are different, so I’m not sure how much of this still applies.

        Like

      • Oscar says:

        “Yeah, none of this is hard and fast on timelines. Let’s just say what you want is to make sure you aren’t thinking with your ‘little head’. ~ whiteguy1

        “This happened to me many MANY times because I was marriage minded and had the mindset to go slow. Looking back, I can see that most of them were looking for more adventure and excitement (e.g. game, sex, etc.), so maybe I dodged a bullet. ~ Jack

        The problem here is that even we in the Christian Androsphere keep treating marriage like it’s an individual choice. It really isn’t.

        I’m not saying we need to have arranged marriages. I’m also not saying that arranged marriage is wrong. It’s culturally dependent. Most of us are of European descent. Arranged marriages were common among the European aristocracy, but not among commoners.

        But, even if marriages weren’t arranged, up until recently, the community was involved in making the choice.

        In the 1940s, most couples met through friends, family, or in high school (which is pretty much the same thing). That meant that couples were pre-vetted for each other by people who loved them, and could think objectively (i.e., not thinking with the wrong head).

        Today, most couples meet online, or in a bar. That pretty much guarantees that they’re not properly vetted, and not thinking objectively.

        If we’re going to help our kids avoid our mistakes, we need to join communities where friends and family vet candidates for marriage on their behalf.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Joe2 says:

        whiteguy1,

        The young 24 year old engineer is doing everything correct. I assume the young lady he met is a couple of years younger or his age and not older. It’s not a good sign if she is older because she would have more life experience which may be to her advantage.

        There should be no doubt that she discussed him with her mother and is aware of her mother’s opinion simply because she brought him home to meet her parents. Otherwise, why would she want him to meet her parents?

        And yes he should discuss marriage, but such discussions should take place in the context of the bible studies at the church they attend. And the bible studies should include other older attendees of the church who have good marriages. There he can lay out the biblical frame of marriage and get her reaction and learn whether other attendees agree. (Does the church support this frame or do they have other ideas?) All this is done in a non-threatening environment so there should be open communication. In essence, she is being vetted about marriage without knowing that she is being vetted.*

        Assuming she passes with flying colors, now is the time to bring up pre/post nups and lawyers. I can assure you that the young lady won’t have the foggiest idea of what he is talking about, e.g., “Aren’t those for rich people and were not rich?” She’ll be concerned and discuss this with her mother and girlfriends. Most likely pre/post nups will be an affront to her mother believing that she raised her daughter properly. Thus, the engineer has thrown cold water on the relationship and has a lot of “splaining” to do. There is a very real possibility (99%) that she’ll break it off because she is frightened (and women get frightened very easily). Just saying, and be prepared for the worst.

        *I had a job interview scheduled with a senior executive at a company. I was told by his secretary that he had to go to an important meeting and would be about an hour late. If I didn’t mind waiting I could go across the street for some coffee or she could try to reschedule the interview. I said I would get some coffee and return. She said that “John” who was hanging by her desk would show me to the elevators and lobby. At the lobby, “John” said that he is going to get some coffee too and he’ll join me if I don’t mind. At the coffee shop we talked about the company, sports, etc. It was very easy to have a conversation. We returned to the executives office and his secretary said rather bluntly that he doesn’t want interview me and I should leave. John walked me to the elevator and said that I will receive an offer of employment in a couple of days. I was shocked. He said that, “You had your interview and it was at the coffee shop.” What I experienced was a carefully planned set up to get me to a non-threatening environment where I could open up and speak freely, not knowing that I was speaking to the decision maker.

        Liked by 2 people

  8. Joe2 says:

    Rowena,

    “We have visceral sexual attraction on one side and vetting which needs to be done as to her character. According to thedeti sir – if she has raw visceral sexual attraction to you – its pretty much all rules out the window.”

    Over at DS’s site, in the comments you mentioned there are Four Parts in the relationship — Part 1 is attraction and Part 2 is sexual arousal which is reserved for marriage. And you believe Part 1 does not need to have raw visceral sexual attraction, just some attraction.

    Where raw visceral sexual attraction is absent, how does a man go about vetting a woman to ensure that Part 2 can be successfully implemented in marriage?

    Like

    • Jack says:

      Joe2,

      “How should Part 2 be vetted?”

      Look for consistent Indicators of Interest (IOIs). IOIs are her feelings of trust, admiration, and arousal peeking through the social constraints. I’ve covered IOIs in a few past posts.

      Σ Frame: List of Female IOI’s (2020-3-30)
      Σ Frame: 8 Examples of IOI Word Semantics (2020-7-8)
      Σ Frame: Handling an IOI requires a Miracle! (2020-7-17)
      Σ Frame: A Man’s Ability to Read IOIs Depends on Having a Firm Grasp on His Personal Archetypal Mythos (2021-6-21)

      Also see the reddit r/GirlsMirin for pictoral and video examples of IOIs.

      Of note, the Meet Cute phenomenon relies heavily on IOIs and context.

      Develop an eye for the Beauty of Purity, and don’t forget to vet against S1ut Tells. Of note, there is one s1ut tell that is also an IOI — s1ut eye. So there’s always a possibility that “she’s only a s1ut for you”, so to speak, and a man should know the difference.

      Like

      • Joe2 says:

        Jack,

        Thanks for the reply. I’m aware of IOI’s and agree these are great indicators.

        Rowena mentioned that it is up to the man (if I understand her correctly) to bring out the sexual arousal in the woman where there is no raw visceral sexual attraction. She specifically mentioned dominance and love making skills on part of the man.

        She doesn’t mention anything the woman does or can do which would indicate to the man he would be successful in this endeavor. Thus, she placed the burden on the man without mentioning IOI’s or anything else which would provide him guidance.

        If IOI’s are the answer that’s fine. If she has anything else, perhaps she can flesh out her answer and share these insights in addition to IOI’s.

        Like

      • Scott says:

        Joe-

        Women don’t “do” IOIs consciously. It’s one of the few minor disagreements I have with Deti. (He argues they need to be turning up the volume on their IOIs, which in my opinion would be the female equivalent of “game” — a monkey dance that red pill coaches and content creators tell men to do to attract women.)

        Rather, women get swept up in the moment and can’t help it. It’s why it is the primary way you can know for sure she is into you. Nothing else comes close.

        Like

  9. Rowena says:

    Joe2 sir — I have written an Email to Jack explaining myself further. It was too long for comments.

    I am sorry I was misunderstood. There are different degrees of sexual attraction.

    Part 1 — Sexual Attraction / Sparks — Based on the attractiveness of a man. And that was what my original Email was about.
    Part 2 — Sexual Arousal / Tingles — Cannot happen WITHOUT sexual attraction (Part 1). But it is not the next step.

    Once sexual attraction (Part 1 — Sparks) is established, one needs to move on to finding out if this person is suitable for marriage (not vetting for Part 2 — sexual arousal).

    Once you have established you have sexual attraction PLUS suitability for marriage, you do not need to vet for Part 2. You can go for marriage.

    After marriage, you have to learn what pleases your wife (how to arouse her). Each woman is different which is why experience over multiple women is useless. In fact, it is counterproductive as you have to UNLEARN all of that. It is experience with YOUR wife that counts (you already have attraction on your side; if she is a Christian, she is bound by the Word to grant you due benevolence, not deprive you, and she has to learn how to please you. (Make sure she understands I Corinthians 7 BEFORE marriage and you are both on the same page understanding that chapter.) That is her DUTY and responsibility as your wife, and also for many men a large part of being his helper). And since unfortunately we live in a culture where duty is associated with ball and chains, let me rephrase that. It is her PRIVILEGE as YOUR wife to get to do that for you. Just as ONLY you as her husband get to do that for her. If she is a virgin, she cannot tell you what arouses her. But you can learn it together over a lifetime — with great joy I might add!!!

    One should seek an older married man to give more specifics (dominance; seduction; imagination; lovemaking skills) and there are plenty on this forum who can guide you on that. It is not my place to do that. Arousal is a skill and needs to be learned with practice — ONLY with your wife. (This is one skill where practicing on many women makes you worse, not better, as that is NOT God’s way.)

    I have sent an email to Jack. Only commenting as you asked me a specific question and I felt I was misunderstood. Again, attraction (sparks) and arousal (what gets her off) are not the same. You cannot have arousal without attraction. Attraction should not lead to arousal. It should lead to vetting for marriage. Arousal is a skill to be learned by practicing on YOUR wife AFTER marriage and over a lifetime.

    Like

    • Jack says:

      I have received Rowena’s email. I will study her conceptualizations and do a write up about it. This post will appear sometime in October.

      Like

      • redpillboomer says:

        “Again, attraction (sparks) and arousal (what gets her off) are not the same. You cannot have arousal without attraction. Attraction should not lead to arousal. It should lead to vetting for marriage. Arousal is a skill to be learned by practicing on YOUR wife AFTER marriage and over a lifetime.”

        Hmm, Jack this is what happened to me, not sure if I was an outlier or not. When I met my future wife, there was DEFINITELY attraction (sparks as Rowena calls it). We did have sex, but not intercourse because she requested we wait until marriage for that part; however, she allowed me to do everything else, i.e. Bases 1-3 (baseball analogy). I was satisfied with this because it was GOOD and I could still honor God, at least in my thinking at the time, not to go all the way with a sister in Christ.

        Attraction did lead to vetting because of the experiences I’d recently had with the other two churchian women right before meeting my future wife that I’ve written about in my earlier posts on this Forum. The two were the CC rider who I believe was still riding at the time, and CC rider that I believe was in the process of hopping off the carousel and starting to look for a man to lock down as a husband.

        I also believe God was involved with the vetting, and that I was cooperating with Him, not because I was super spiritual about sex and marriage, but rather I was coming off the recent experiences with the other two women. I had a fairly good idea what I DID NOT WANT in a relationship, and it was what those two represented to me at the time.

        I was married within four months, which I/we thought was pretty fast at the time; however we’d spent so much time together in those four months, it was like a year rolled into four months. I definitely learned to arouse my wife after marriage because I had no idea what got her off because we had not consummated prior to tying the knot.

        Like

  10. Joe2 says:

    “Again, attraction (sparks) and arousal (what gets her off) are not the same. You cannot have arousal without attraction. Attraction should not lead to arousal. It should lead to vetting for marriage. Arousal is a skill to be learned by practicing on YOUR wife AFTER marriage and over a lifetime.”

    Rowena’s response is a one way street. She states, “After marriage, you have to learn what pleases your wife (how to arouse her).” That’s fine, but shouldn’t the man expect the woman to reciprocate?

    I found (from my experience) its very likely that the woman will not reciprocate and has no interest in ensuring that I’m satisfied or even able to maintain my arousal so I can complete intercourse. It’s all up to me to do that. So while she may offer her body, she has no interest in ensuring that I’ll be successful.

    One example in particular involves a Christian woman who “checked all the right boxes” and appeared ideal for marriage. She even said that she knows her obligations and would never deny me sex. And then, quite by accident, as we discussed marriage she said that she would never touch my penis. What a shock! Because she wouldn’t like it. How would she know since she has never seen it? She just knows. Sex with her would be like having sex with a blow-up doll. Totally unacceptable. Basically, she rejected me sexually while fulfilling her I Cor. 7 obligation. I wish I would have learned this earlier and regret having wasted precious time with her.

    I think right from the very beginning the man has to vet by bringing up sex and being very and I mean very explicit about what he expects. All through the relationship, sex has to be brought up so there is no misunderstandings. Nothing left to assumption and nothing left ambiguous. Any hesitation on her part or if she feelz uncomfortable talking about sex means to drop her and move on. No Mr. Nice Guy and no giving her the benefit of the doubt and definitely no thinking you can work out any “red flags” after marriage.

    Liked by 1 person

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