Respect makes all the difference!

A reader’s testimony about how Respect for Respectability can transform lives!

Readership: All
Theme: Masculine Authority and Responsibility
Length: 1,200 words
Reading Time: 7 minutes

This post conveys an email correspondence I had with a female reader named Juliana on 2022/4/28-29. I’m passing this on to our readers because I believe men will be encouraged to make a greater effort to respect the right kinds of men when they know what kind of impact it can have.


Jack,

I’m a long-term reader of your blog, but will refrain from commenting in the combox since I’m a woman. However, the last paragraph of your recent post about men choosing to respect the right sort of men brought a post of Zippy Catholic’s to my memory. I thought at the time it was a shame that his idea was mostly dismissed.

I’m sending the pertinent paragraph, but the whole post and comments are worth reading.

“So why do modern women find themselves, often against their own will, attracted to bad boys? Simple, really. Female attraction is much more socially conditioned than male attraction: women are natural followers, men natural leaders. Women are very good at figuring out the difference between the appearance of social status and its reality. You can’t snooker them – they can’t snooker themselves – by putting a nerd in a position of power. A nerd in an artificial position of power is still a nerd, and most women are going to find powerful nerds about as attractive as most men are going to find an obese woman in a bikini. Young women are always going to find themselves unwittingly attracted to men who have actual social status as accorded by our actual society, those who are seen as independent and “cool” in context (which is not the same thing as money, position, etc.); just as men are always going to find themselves attracted to women who have physical characteristics that make for good childbearing.”

Zippy Catholic: “Game” as postmodern feminism; or why women like bad boys (2012-9-17)

May God bless your day,

Juliana

Juliana,

Thank you for calling my attention to this older post from Zippy. It kick started a fruitful study of the old Game Debate, among other things.

Could you tell me what it is about this post that led you to share it with me? What does it mean to you? How do you think this relates to men choosing to respect the right sort of men?

Blessings to you too!

Jack


Jack,

My sister and I married 38 years ago in a church in which fathers were expressly respected and those fathers extended respect to single men who followed Christ. Fathers were expected to be part of the mate selection process for daughters, and all of the church leadership threw their weight behind fathers. My mother talked frankly to us about women being attracted to bad boys and taught us to disrespect such men and respect good ones. I doubt this teaching would have taken in the absence of the social norms in our church and, in fact, in our prior church my dad was not respected by either my mother or the other men, and I also lacked respect for him. Once we changed churches and I saw him respected by other men, my respect for him improved. This church was not at all Anabaptist/Separatist — it was solidly evangelical in character, but the families were on the cutting edge of the early evangelical rejection of popular culture with most of the families rejecting birth control and homeschooling their children.

Zippy’s view on female attraction being socially mediated rang true to me because of my experience in resisting my attraction to bad boys. I was definitely attracted to them, but purposely chose a man who was not rebellious and then my dad affirmed my choice. My sister did the same. I don’t believe I would have done this if the men in my social group did not demonstrate respect for good men and disrespect for bad and if my mother had not specifically brought this to my attention.

Scene from Four Brothers (2005).

My husband and I have a son and three daughters and while we did not follow the same practices, the two girls that are married did seek his input and chose good family men. All were virgins, the men because they weren’t the sort of men that women currently chase. I followed my mother’s practices and explicitly taught my daughters why bad boys are attractive and why they should resist that attraction and train their attraction to good men. My youngest daughter has so far chosen three good men, two of whom declined her interest and remain unmarried, one of whom declined and is soon to be married to a woman who will likely make his life hell.

I may be on the entirely wrong track, but if the way forward is enclaves of like-minded families, male respect for other men will be essential to that project. In my previous church, Jason [LastMod] would have been married — he is just the sort of man fathers wanted for their daughters and, as such, he would have enjoyed the respect of those fathers. Also, if Zippy is correct and my story has any validity, attraction is trained. While visceral attraction only may be lots of fun, but I sincerely doubt it survives the intimacies of marriage entirely intact, and it’s simply not practical to expect that every couple will experience that at the beginning. Every long-married couple with an active physical interaction has likely practiced cultivated attraction. Cultivated attraction quite often leads to visceral attraction anyway.

When our youngest daughter was in her early teens we were in a church that tried to practice a courtship model, but the fathers scoffed and preened around the young men who had great potential as husbands and fathers and their daughters did the same. Imagine what could have happened if the fathers respected and mentored those boys and disrespected the bad ones? Didn’t there used to be a sort of Masculine Respect Club that men were automatically in as long as they were decent upstanding citizens?

Thank you most sincerely for your interest and for your time and patience with this long story.

Juliana

Conclusions

Juliana has given us a vision of a respectful community of men and how this type of environment has a positive impact that extends over generations.

The takeaway for men is that we need to do what we can to foster a respectful church / community / family / social environment having hallmarks similar to what she has described — one that is characterized by a mutual respect for men, a respect for the right kinds of men, and teaching women by example to do the same.

We should also discourage honor and respect from being shown to those types of men who are prone to only garner respect according to those worldly standards which are contradictory and stand in stark contrast to God’s ordained order, and explain to women that this is an inclination of the flesh and how it is detrimental.

Related

About Jack

Jack is a world traveling artist, skilled in trading ideas and information, none of which are considered too holy, too nerdy, nor too profane to hijack and twist into useful fashion. Sigma Frame Mindsets and methods for building and maintaining a masculine Frame
This entry was posted in Attitude, Attraction, Child Development, Choosing a Partner or Spouse, Collective Strength, Courtship and Marriage, Cultural Anthropology, Decision Making, Discernment, Wisdom, Faith Community, Female Evo-Psych, Fundamental Frame, Headship and Patriarchy, Holding Frame, Inner Game, Intersexual Dynamics, Leadership, Male Power, Manosphere, Maturity, Personal Growth and Development, Models of Success, Moral Agency, Organization and Structure, Paradigms of Religion, Parenting, Personal Domain, Personal Presentation, Psychology, Purpose, Relationships, Respect, Sanctification & Defilement, Sphere of Influence, Teaching, The Power of God, Vetting Women. Bookmark the permalink.

16 Responses to Respect makes all the difference!

  1. info says:

    It also goes to show that matchmaking has a long ways to go. So that the eligible Men and Women have more opportunities to meet up.

    Liked by 1 person

  2. redpillboomer says:

    “I followed my mother’s practices and explicitly taught my daughters why bad boys are attractive and why they should resist that attraction and train their attraction to good men.”

    And this is a HUGE missing in today’s culture. I always wondered about the women of my generation that got married, raised kids in suburbia, and seemingly had a conservative bent in some of the ways involving their child rearing practices. Their girls dressed fairly modestly as teens for the most part, took music lessons, played girls sports, did well in school, some went to church, etc.

    Their girls then spent their twenties off at college (including Christian colleges I might add) being party girls, chasing the bad boys, sleeping with them, and living what they refer to now as their “hoe phase.” Then I’d see these girls in their late twenties into their early thirties getting around their family members trying in some ways to “turn the clock back” and regain some facsimile of their growing up phase to “land a husband/provider” type man for marriage. The modest dress would return, they’d try to act more grown up and responsible, etc. Some in the Manosphere cynically refer to this as being a “Chameleon,” pretending to be one thing, in this case an older “good girl,” yet in reality, underneath, a bad girl in disguise.

    It struck me as odd that these mom’s (and dad’s) didn’t teach them the principles in the quote I led off with above. It seemed strange to me that the parents invested all that effort in raising their daughters “right” and then just let it all out the window when the girls graduated from high school.

    I know intellectually why this happened, stuff like the cultural conditioning of feminism (focus on your career and don’t get married too young, “You can have it all!”), wokeism, etc. However, at a more emotional level, it still seems odd to me these types of situations occurred at all. Why invest all that time, energy, resources and YEARS as parents to “swim up stream” against today’s culture in attempt to raise “good girls” and then let it all “fly out the window” when the girls became young adults?

    Liked by 2 people

  3. “Also, if Zippy is correct and my story has any validity, attraction is trained. While visceral attraction only may be lots of fun, but I sincerely doubt it survives the intimacies of marriage entirely intact, and it’s simply not practical to expect that every couple will experience that at the beginning. Every long-married couple with an active physical interaction has likely practiced cultivated attraction. Cultivated attraction quite often leads to visceral attraction anyway.”

    Attraction is not really “trained” but it can be propped up by various social structures as I mentioned in this post:

    Christianity and Masculinity: Why do most societies have 90-95% marriage rates (at some points) (2021-7-29)

    These include things like:
    — The position of man and husband were held with nearly universal respect for what men do.
    — Most jobs, especially those which required a lot of expertise hands on or otherwise, were held only by men. By extension, most of those jobs were higher paid.
    — Men in general were more masculine.
    — Lack of obesity. Because of the comparative lack of obesity in the past, male and female 1-3s in the past would be rated higher than the 1-3s of today.

    All of these satisfy hypergamy. Men are respected. Women want to marry up socioeconomically and be provided for. Masculinity is attractive to hypergamy. Obviously, obesity is unattractive to hypergamy.

    Juliana has described a scenario where it can be implemented in a smaller community which is a good thing, but this is generally something we already knew as smaller Christian populations like the Amish and maybe a lesser extent SDA (although they’re falling). Probably smaller and less urban churches have more appreciation for men and women because there is much more traditional roles and responsibilities in the country with farming, hunting, and such.

    I have seen this in individual circumstances and in some Churches, including the one I am at now to a solid extent. The goal would eventually be to do this with a lot of Churches in the local or possibly statewide area. It is difficult to say how feasible that would be, although I know it is doable, at least at the singular Church level, if you can influence the pastors and elders.

    Liked by 1 person

  4. thedeti says:

    All due respect to Juliana, I don’t buy her story or her belief that real actual SEXUAL attraction can be trained or taught. She’s talking about making marriages in which women remain in the marriages despite lack of visceral sexual attraction.

    I know she’s saying that visceral attraction develops later in response to respect. I don’t believe that. She — and others, including you, Jack — might want to believe that, but wanting to believe something won’t make it true no matter how hard we want it. Hope is not a strategy.

    This is yet one more reason why taking women’s advice is always a bad idea. Again, with all due respect, Juliana, advise the women, and leaving advising the men to us.

    Like

    • thedeti says:

      This sounds to me like negotiating desire, which we have learned cannot be done. A woman cannot learn how to be sexually attracted to a man. A woman cannot be trained to desire a man sexually whom she does not naturally sexually desire. She either desires him or she doesn’t. She either is attracted to him or she is not.

      Most women are not sufficiently sexually attracted to most men to the degree they will be willing to stay with that man for 20, 30, or 40 years or more. They just aren’t. Nothing anyone can do will change that.

      Please, stop giving men and women false hope. It’s wrong. It’s cruel. Better to be honest with men and women, and tell them there is no hope for most of them.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Rowena says:

        BOTH thedeti and Juliana and Deep Strength are right. A man or woman can BOTH increase sexual attractiveness and move from a 5 to a 7 which is where most men and women fall. They cannot get the visceral attraction that a 8-10 generates but can increase their sexual attractiveness in their bandwidth.

        It hinges however on virginity of woman. If she is NOT a virgin, nothing short of raw, visceral sexual attraction will satisfy. She may be a 5-7 but she will not be sexually satisfied with a 5-7 IF she has slept with a 8-10 before. It would be SAME for a man if a 5-7 man slept with a supermodel. Except that does not happen in real life.

        But a 5-7 woman can be satisfied with a 5-7 man if she is a virgin. Both Deep Strength and Julianna are referring to this category. A virgin when sexually imprinted by her husband and ONLY her husband can be trained to please him. This is Biblical concept of ONE FLESH. This is how most marriages lasted across ages and cultures.

        Bottom line — IF she is NOT a virgin you will need raw visceral sexual desire that Scott refers to. Which most men who are NOT 8-10 will be able to generate. If she is a virgin, she can be trained and have an entirely satisfying sex life even if BOTH she and her husband are 5-7. She knows no better just like most men do not know what it is like to sleep with a supermodel even if he is viscerally attracted to one. Deep Strength married a virgin and Juliana was a virgin when she married her husband. That is why they speak from experience that it is possible.

        The lynchpin of any patriarchal society lies in protection of virginity of women. Muslims and Hindus and Judaism (no idea about present day Jews) ALL promote virginity in women. Christianity teaches against sexual immorality for BOTH men and women but consequences for loss of virginity is HIGHER for women.

        Liked by 3 people

    • Sharkly says:

      Hey I hear you! I was born short, bald, and chubby, too. But I didn’t despair. In time I grew hair, grew tall, and became muscular. And having been a man in demand, back in the day, I can authoritatively say, that your appeal to women, or lack thereof, is usually about as empowering or debilitating as you let it be to you. Unless your heart’s desire is to fornicate, your attractiveness to women matters little. Perhaps times are changing, but women didn’t hold the keys to gaining power when I came up.

      My own mother rejected me to a great degree, due to her own issues, and I quickly learned that no matter how hard I tried I could never please her to the point that I would ever be fully accepted by her. Although that was an unpleasant lesson to learn, it has served me well in dealing with people. You can’t please everybody, so don’t try. Just do what you think is best, and those who are good people will appreciate your effort, and those who don’t appreciate your best efforts are likely just suffering from their own poor character.

      thedeti, besides not “taking women’s advice”, which I agree is a bad idea, and largely got us into this whole mess, what other proactive things do you recommend that young men do, as opposed to just giving up on finding a virgin in a more patriarchal culture if they are family minded?

      However, on the contrary, I think I’m getting Juliana’s thoughts through Jack, who has selected a portion to use to teach us his own thoughts on the matter. And that’s how I think it should be. If a woman has some idea worth hearing by men in a men’s forum, a man should generally evaluate that and then only present it to other men if he deems it worthwhile. Otherwise, you have to take women’s comments as merely the thoughts of a woman, and consider them quite critically, due to women’s almost inescapable defiling nature. Only by the grace of God can women be wise and helpful for any length of time.

      Origen warned us: “Men should not sit and listen to a woman . . . even if she says admirable things, or even saintly things, that is of little consequence, since it came from the mouth of a woman.”

      But, on the “lack of attraction” thing, I hope you’re not bitter. Because some men seem to let their rejection by women greatly anger them, and in a practical sense, their idolizing or overvaluing of women, and of women’s approval, destroys men through getting them to mentally debase themselves. A Feminist b!tch once said: “No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” And she was right.
      Your manhood is innate. Women don’t get to vote on it. Here on earth, they can never be your equal, they are the inferior creation. The kind through which Satan continues to see to it that the whole world is defiled. Adam rightly blamed God for giving her, with her defiling nature, to him. But God was right in that Adam should have known better than to hearken to a fooled and rebelling creature instead of his Father & Creator.

      Genesis 3:12(NET) The man said, “The woman whom you gave me, she gave me some fruit from the tree and I ate it.”

      Unlike churchian false-teachers teach, (who mock the father of all men, thereby mocking all men) Adam answered God his Father well and quite correctly. God did not reprimand Adam for pointing out that God have given him the defiler. God said that Adam’s sin was hearkening unto the defiler and obeying her instead of obeying God, who had forbid they eat that fruit. God’s “first” commandment consequently was for us to never have any others before Him. The first commandment addressed man’s first and foremost sin of willingly giving another greater worth-ship to be obeyed than God our patriarchal Father of all fathers.

      FWIW, the book of Jubilees explains that God created the woman on the sixth day of the second week before the second sabbath after Adam had spent five days of the second week examining and naming all the animals under his dominion. So, when God said that everything was good on the sixth day in Genesis, the woman probably wasn’t there yet according to the more detailed timeline given in the book of Jubilees.

      Greek mythology’s first woman, Pandora, is often thought to be a rendition of Eve, a weaker creature who, through weak self-control, defiles the whole earth.

      Like

      • thedeti says:

        “What other proactive things do you recommend that young men do, as opposed to just giving up on finding a virgin in a more patriarchal culture if they are family minded?”

        There really isn’t much young men can do about this. For most family minded men, it’s utterly hopeless. They will either (1) have to accept women who have been imprinted with premarital sex; or (2) avoid marriage entirely.

        Like

  5. Sharkly says:

    Yes, when women are taught to properly respect men as the image and glory of God, and to serve their husbands as unto the Lord, and to adorn themselves with shamefacedness, then they are far more sexually attracted to men in general, and to their husbands in particular. And by giving respect to those to whom it is due, we can mold women’s affections. I documented this happening in history once:

    Laughing at Feminism: Horny Housewives of the Patristic Age (2019-6-28)

    Conversely, we subtly teach women a general degree of disdain towards all men, when we teach women to esteem themselves far more highly than they ought to, leaving only the most attractive men still seeming attractive enough to them.

    I believe a portion of our attraction is instilled by nature and a portion of our attraction is instilled by nurture. I think in most women, the trainable portion is relatively larger than it is in men. Women seem to chase after some men with a herd mentality. The more popular a particular man gets the more women will find him attractive. But if he begins to lose his popularity, then women will also begin to lose much of their attraction to him.

    If I am right that our affections are trainable, maybe God will back me up by writing a verse where He tells us what sort of things we should set our affections on. 😉 Thanks God!

    From my own experience, no matter how much satanic Hollywood tried to train me that olive skinned women were more sexy, and that all White women looked better with a tan, it never took. I’m still naturally attracted to ghastly pale, porcelain skinned women, and find that most darker skinned women just don’t attract me. However there were also a lot of physical things about my wife that I found I had come to admire after I trained my affection on her, as I documented once:

    Laughing at Feminism: Virgin Imprinting (2020-3-1)

    It sounds like Juliana shares some of the same ideas that I promote.

    Like

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  9. locustsplease says:

    I agree with Juliana. However, the idea of teaching women to avoid F boys and try to get a solid husband is strange to most men. I don’t know a soul who passed up on a wholesome, relatively attractive woman ready to satisfy him, for a prostitute who obviously will be riding another guy tomorrow.
    Let’s be clear. Even the Chad’s don’t. They are looking to defile virgins at every opportunity. Why these virgins want to get pumped and dumped by losers as their first nobody has got an answer from them yet on this.

    I had a friend… Girls in their late teens would call him and he would take their virginity. Hot girls. Nice girls. Ones who would never consider dating me at the time. 1 got pregnant from the first time. She was 16 and her dad made her have an abortion. Chad ghosted her. I doubt her simp husband ever got that story. But I’m sure she just takes her anger out on him. Why do women chase obviously unreliable loosers who most men can glance at and know this. Because they can get away with it. That’s why. It’s not much more complicated than that. Until they see a large group of women publicly get some punishment for chasing bad boys or divorce raping men, they are gonna do it.

    If we had a way of detecting number count the game would be over. None are virgins and we have to take their word for it. More of these girls are over 100 than anybody wants to admit.

    Liked by 1 person

    • thedeti says:

      “I don’t know a soul who passed up on a wholesome, relatively attractive woman ready to satisfy him, for a prostitute who obviously will be riding another guy tomorrow.”

      What usually happens is women duping men: They’re usually prostitutes who successfully pass themselves off as wholesome attractive women; or severely damaged women trying to reform into wholesome attractive women and failing miserably.

      Like

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