Some men are so depressed that it’s their new normal.
Readership: Men; Single Men;
Theme: Faux-Masculine Archetypes
Length: 2,100 words
Reading Time: 7 minutes
Introduction
Some readers might not consider the listless anhedonic male to be a widely recognized archetype of masculinity, but the fact is, it’s common enough that it deserves our consideration. Christian men and especially clergymen are especially prone to this, as we will read later, although they have every reason not to be. Clergymen are powerful Christian role models for younger men. So this post will examine depressed male Christians as a cohort archetype. We’ll also look at some influential factors related to this condition and some odd cognitions that depressed men use to justify their depression.
Men’s Mental Health
Men and women deal with stress and depression differently. Women are better able to verbalize their emotions, whereas men might not recognize their symptoms as depression, perhaps denying or hiding their unhappiness, so the illness is overlooked in men until it becomes more severe. Women tend to congregate with other women and support each other, whereas men tend to withdraw and are more likely to turn to drugs or alcohol, which exacerbates their condition. Women are more likely to seek counseling or other professional help, whereas men are hesitant to do so.
It is suspected that the number of men having a mild form of clinical or chronic depression is underestimated.
- There are many men who are not downtrodden enough to recognize that they are depressed, nor would they seek counseling for depression. Others too might not recognize them as being depressed.
- Some men pride themselves on being able to pull themselves together in spite of the malaise and therefore cling to denial.
- Some men are so befuddled and terminally downcast that they have somehow managed to incorporate many traits and symptoms of depression into their personality. Thus, their condition is dismissed as “normal” and not properly regarded as depression.
As a consequence, these men lumber through their lives with long faces and a dour affect, they have low motivation, they give slow or listless responses, and they do this with such regular consistency that others find it challenging to even imagine them being in a state of joy.
The reasons for this vary on a case by case basis.
- Some of these men have had a difficult life since childhood. Even after discovering faith, they find that the immediate benefits of hope and joy are limited.
- Some men have grown up in a broken home, or an emotionless home with relationally cold parents, and therefore haven’t experienced the love and grace of God.
- Some of them have endured heart wrenching blows in their careers and marriages.
- Some men are discouraged to the point where they find it difficult to open their heart and be sufficiently trusting enough to display their inner joy, if they have any.
- Some men are disappointed and frustrated with love and the SMP/MMP.
- Some of these men are spergy and therefore angry, distrusting, paranoid, and depressed.
- Some men intentionally avoid exploring the bounds of their faith, because it leads them to get excited, anxious, and fearful about the fresh opportunities they can discern, and they’ve been told that holiness is removed from those passions. This leads to apathy, joylessness, and depression.
- Some men find more peace and emotional stability in maintaining a state of disengaged anhedonia.
I’m not a medical doctor, but personally, I suspect some men suffering from a lifetime of depression have never developed the neural synapses needed to genuinely feel emotions and express their emotional state. It’s beyond just repressed anger, stinted hopes, poor socialization habits, or a chemical imbalance.
What does Christianity and church fellowship offer to these men?
Church-going Men are Susceptible to Depression
Studies have found that non-church-going women have a greater incidence of depression than their male counterparts, at a ratio of 1.6. However, this is the opposite among regular church-goers, in which men have a higher incidence of depression. In both populations, many indicators of depression are similar, but the actual rate of depression is not. That is, women talk about it more than men do, they report it more than men do, and are more likely to seek help than men are. Among non-church-goers, these indicators correspond with the respective rates of depression among men and women. But among the faithful, these indicators cannot be construed to mean that women have a greater incidence of depression than men do, but rather, it’s because men are reticent to talk about their emotions and less willing to seek professional help. As a result, church-going men are somehow less able to deal with depression than women are, and therefore suffer more from it. [1]
Mirola [2] investigated whether what people do and don’t do religiously might have both social supportive and coping implications for their mental health. He discovered that…
- Identifying one’s self as religious has no effect on depression for neither men nor women.
- Holding a position of authority in the church has no effect on depression for neither men nor women.
- Frequent church attendance ameliorates stress and depression in women, but not men!
- The use of prayer as coping mechanism significantly buffers the negative effects of chronic strains and depression in women, but not in men!
He concluded that women are more likely to benefit psychologically from greater religious involvement.
Mirola notes that it is quite possible that those who are depressed go to church more than those who don’t or turn to prayer when they are at their wits end and no other option is available.
Furthermore, Mirola found that there are three main summary forces embedded within religious institutions and in every day life that work in women’s favor.
- Women are more likely to be in and take advantage of supportive relationships made available through their religious activity.
- Women are more likely to define religious activity as an efficacious means to cope with stress and then use it for that purpose.
- Women get a sense of community, protection, and social security from attending church and being involved in religious activities, and this has a greater effect on women’s mental health compared to men.
“Frequent church attendance had a negative effect on depression for the full sample (b = -.334, p < .01). However, as hypothesized, this effect in the full sample is primarily due to existence of a negative effect of frequent church attendance on depression for women. No similar effect appears for men.” [2]
So in summary, going to church makes women less stressed and less depressed on the average, but the same is not true for men. This adds to the sizeable number of reasons why the typical church has many more women than men.
Depression among Religious Leaders
It gets worse. Clergy members are at far greater risk for depression than individuals in other occupations. [3] Studies conducted between 2005-2008 found that the rate of depression among men of the cloth ranged between 5.5 to 11.1%. [4]
“A number of factors were found to be powerful predictors of depression and anxiety, most notably job stress. Clergy engage in many stressful activities, including grief counseling, navigating the competing demands of congregants, and delivering a weekly sermon that opens them up to criticism. The strain of these roles is further amplified by having to switch rapidly between them, which other studies have shown to exacerbate stressful experiences.” [5]
“Furthermore, the study found that pastors’ sense of guilt about not doing enough at work was a top predictor of depression, and that doubt of their call to ministry was a top predictor of anxiety. Pastors with less social support — those who reported feeling socially isolated — were at higher risk for depression. By contrast, pastors reporting greater satisfaction with their ministry were half as likely to qualify for depression or anxiety.” [5]
Case Study — A Depressed Pastor Rationalizes His Depression
Here’s an odd perspective from the author of Building Jerusalem that gives us one example of how the clergy deals with depression inappropriately or inadequately. In Depression slays the idol of productivity (2021-3-16), the author, Pastor Stephen Kneale, wrote,
“If we aren’t busy, we feel guilty. When we are busy, we feel virtuous. In many ways, my depression helps with that. […] …despite how I may view productivity as a mark of faithfulness, the truth is I can’t be that productive. I can do some things, but not as much as I can normally. I can get stuff done, but it takes me absolutely ages now. And I still feel guilty about it, but it doesn’t matter, because there’s nothing I can do about it. I can’t make the slowness disappear and the workload increase. It exposes the idolatry of busyness and forces me to slay it.”
Yes! Let us be thankful for our depression!
Pastor Kneale seems to have it backwards! He observes that people feel virtuous when they’re busy, which I see as both an indicator of emotional health and being well adjusted within one’s occupation. But he has the idea that it’s somehow less holy of him as a pastor to feel virtuous about being busy! He is thankful to be depressed because it works against productivity, which he believes is an idol!
IMO, work is a blessing to be savored and enjoyed, especially when you’re working for the Lord. And based on my own experience with depression, it’s the result of repressed anger and frustration that continues on for months and years without any hope of a resolution.
Another pastor in Sydney Australia, Chris Cipollone, carries a similar attitude about his own depression.
“I am a pastor who lives with depression. And nowhere in scripture am I disqualified for it.”
“In living with personal frailty, I can leave room for healthy leadership frailty, because it is God’s strength that is greater.”
As we have read above, pastors face an increased risk of depression, but one’s own attitude about it can make a difference. IMHO, I’d say these guys are a bit too myopic about their own spiritual state and they need a sabbatical to give themselves some rest and a broader perspective. It concerns me to think that they might be extending these beliefs to the men under his care, and inadvertently teaching them to savor their repressed anger or whatever is contributing to their depression and to be thankful for the dull despondency.
The Church and Mental Health
I want to take a moment to comment on a tangent about how the church usually deals with mental health, as this directly relates to Christian men suffering from anhedonia, dejection, depression and general melancholy.
Christianity has within it a theology involving sin, guilt, suffering, and self-sacrifice, and it is not uncommon for sincere laypersons to be deeply confused over these issues, often without fully understanding exactly how they are affected by it or why. Even mature Christians can come to a place in their lives where they ask themselves basic questions like, “Why does God allow (this) suffering?”
In ages past, the church was largely responsible for shepherding those new to the faith and those going through difficult ordeals. In modern times, it is the field of psychology which addresses those problems within society that were once regularly dealt with by the clergy. Now, only one quarter of people who seek treatment for mental disorders go first to a member of the clergy. [3] This is higher than the percentage of people who go to either psychiatrists or general medical doctors, but lower than it has been in decades past. [3] As a result of advances in psychological treatments, and the receding activity of the church in shouldering responsibility for remediating psychological illnesses, the clergy is now less able and competent in dealing with depression and other forms of mental illnesses in it’s congregation, in spite of the availability of modern advances in knowledge about such issues.
In the busy day to day work of ministerial work, most clergymen will seldom wrestle with the Christian theology of suffering and how it relates to mental illness. However, it needs to be recognized that someone suffering from depression or another mental illness is suffering a spiritual crisis as well, particularly the first time the symptoms take hold. [3] This suffering should be properly recognized as a momentous time, perhaps once in a lifetime, when that person is most open to internalizing the gospel of Christ and receiving the heart-felt knowledge of salvation. Therefore, it is necessary for both clergymen and those suffering to recognize how depression and other mental illnesses might fit within Christian teaching on the effects of original sin, the presence of various sufferings and illnesses in our world, God’s unconditional love, redemption in this life, and how one may find healing for the mind, body, and soul. Clergymen need to find real, clinically tested, actionable strategies to help their parishioners come to peace with the problems and questions of the soul that are common or which providentially become eminent within their church or parish. Sufferers need to find and access the power of the gospel, the support of a Christian community, the love that is experienced within God’s presence, and the overriding hope that Christ can offer to them through Christ’s love. Men who are searching for healing should be guided towards an understanding of how their experience fits into and supports God’s purpose for his life. In most cases, men who have had hurtful experiences in the past and have found grace and healing are best suited for ministering to other men going through similar experiences. (2 Corinthians 1:3-7) So there is no need for clergymen to have all the answers, but they must face these mental conditions and the preeminent questions, offer actionable choices to those suffering, help them find mentors who can stand by them, and rest in God’s truth. The alternative is that the ignorance, uncertainty, and hesitation of church leaders and counselors will leave those suffering from various psychological conditions without a lifeline.
Of course, there’s always One lifeline. Mirola [2] found that prayer significantly helps women avoid stress and depression, but not men!
Masculinity Rating
Strength: 0-1
Honor: 0-1
Authority: 0-2
Respect: 0-2
Purpose: 0-4
Average Score: 1
References
- Lloyd, C. E. M., Mengistu, B. S., Reid, G., “His Main Problem Was Not Being in a Relationship With God”: Perceptions of Depression, Help-Seeking, and Treatment in Evangelical Christianity”, Frontiers in Psychology, (19 April 2022). | DOI: https://doi.org/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.831534
- Mirola, W. A. (1999) “A Refuge for Some: Gender Differences in the Relationship between Religious Involvement and Depression,” Sociology of Religion, 60(4), 419–437. | DOI: https://doi.org/10.2307/3712024
- Wang, P. S., Berglund, P. A., Kessler, R. C., “Patterns and correlates of contacting clergy for mental disorders in the United States“, Health services research, 38(2), 647–673 (2003). | DOI: https://doi.org/10.1111/1475-6773.00138
- Proeschold-Bell, R. J., Miles, A., Toth, M., Adams, C., Smith, B. W., Toole, D., “Using Effort-Reward Imbalance Theory to Understand High Rates of Depression and Anxiety Among Clergy,” The Journal of Primary Prevention 34, 439–453 (2013). | DOI: https://doi.org/10.1007/s10935-013-0321-4
- Duke Today: Clergy More Likely to Suffer from Depression, Anxiety (2013-8-27)
Related
- New Life Christian Fellowship: The Causes of Depression (2015-9-15)
- Σ Frame (Jack): Developing Attitudes That Help You Cope (2015-11-5)
- The Good Book: Here’s What it’s Like Being a Church Leader and Depressed (2018-5-1)
- Σ Frame (Jack): Millennials Losing Hope (2020-4-17)
- Σ Frame (Scott): How to detect the possibility of suicide in someone close to you (2021-2-6)
- Σ Frame (Jack): The Link between Zinc, Male Health, and Depression (2022-4-29)
Σ Frame 
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Jack,
Your statement reads with frightening similarity to the modern church tenet of men dwelling in the helpless and hopeless position of having the responsibility with no authority in his own home.
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This cannot be overstated. That trapped, learned helplessness thing is real.
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thedeti – There is a logical aspect to the helplessness as well. If you are a Christian man that takes to heart trying to obey God you are logically painted into a corner. Divorce is not allowed unless she commits adultery. You don’t have the authority to correct your wife’s contentiousness and it’s twin sibling, sexlessness, which is not considered cheating anymore. So you are miserable and all you can do is gut it out and hope God eventually has mercy on you.
No wonder men question their faith. The crushing burden they live under is religiously insurmountable if they listen to their pastor, and the pastor instead of helping alleviate the burden adds to it by telling him he needs to be a better husband and father. F that.
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@Red Pill Apostle
And then these pastors wonder why the single men are leaving and/or refusing to get married to the women of their congregation.
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They look like the Church. But Jesus Christ is not in them neither does his Spirit dwell in them. Preaching false doctrines that is deliberately made to look like Christian doctrine contrary to the actual word of God. Thoroughly infiltrated and subverted by wolves in sheep’s clothing
Only enlightenment in the Red Pill. And God’s intervention which we must ask in prayer can fix this.
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The last two years when I was an active church goer, and involved (no, not just scratching myself at the men’s bible study talking about how blessed I was) I was the most depressed I had been in a very, very long time. I left, I actually began to DO things again and improve myself. Wasted a decade “waiting on God” and prayer, and serving….to only be told “This is a faith of suffering!” Basically deal with it because when you die you will be “dancing with Jesus” for an eternity. At the same time, bad behavior inside the church, not just mine…… was rewarded and actually encouraged!
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The most insidious thing about this attitude is that unscrupulous churchian leaders use it to take advantage of other men for their own gain (either to give themselves an ego/status boost at another man’s expense, or to exploit another man’s labor, resources, or time for same).
In your case the Sally Army needed a “scut worker,” and that’s all you were to them. Had you realized your full potential, it would not only have robbed them of your time and labor, but would almost certainly have shown them to be the lesser men that they were. Sadly, this is a dynamic that affects most churches today when it comes to the roles of men in them who are not part of the “leadership tier” (Gunner Q has written about this in a few of his own blog posts, citing it as one of the key reasons why he stopped going to church).
And yes, you certainly made the right decision to walk away from the Sally Army (I wonder: if any of your former leaders there were to see you today, would they be supportive and encouraging of you, congratulating you on your success, or would they still lament your leaving them and try to shame you into coming back to them?).
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That’s a good question. Look, there were one or two Soldiers (laity) that were decent enough. Friendly enough, and yes, genuine enough. You probably could find that at any church, but you can find that out in the world as well too.
I won’t hate on the Salvation Army for some of the work they do, but they, like most protestant denoms… really don’t convince men why they need a savior or offer them a choice. In the Anglican tradition (preppy Catholic) which I was culturally raised, it was all “meaningless ritual” that was never explained, or one had to study for years and years…….
WIth my brief encounters with Orthodoxy (cousins wedding) and that time I went to a Russian Orthodox chirch in Santa Rosa…… it was kind of the same thing. Standing. Kneeling. Lots of layered ritual and little or nothing about Jesus or God. Sin is never mentioned in ANY church today, and well… if it is…… it’s not a big deal.
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It is. But it is also a faith of action, overcoming, and victory. It is a faith that requires plans, action, and work, because “faith without works is dead”. I am not surprised at all that people misled you this way.
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This is how the writer of Hebrews talked about “Faith”:
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This hits home. I was born again in the summer of 1998 when I was 19, but even as I was walking around the cemetery giggling like a schoolgirl, “the voice” that condemned me for years swiftly got the upper hand. It’s taken God years to get me to the point where I’m willing to reconcile with my miserable adolescence and to make beauty from the ashes.
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The idea that church and prayer is actually not helpful for men with depression (or at least not as helpful as it is for women) is fascinating to me. What, then, do you think is the purpose of going to church for a man? Or praying? In some ways it seems that it would be better for a man to spend the time he would normally go to church with a group of men doing something together.
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To take his kids. I’ve come to the conclusion that for single guys it makes little to no sense. But kids need something to ground them in morality (which some overly faith alone churches are incapable of anyway). In the past it was also to find a wife.
A man should pray Imprecatory prayers asking God to slay the wicked and not just the Feminine prayers the church today insists on. That I think is the problem. Praying, “Lord, smite the tranny pushers! Smite verily the abortionists. Smite, O Lord, the CEOs and officers of Disney and all other CEOs and officers of corporations pushing wokeness. Slay thou, O Lord, the Leftist politicians, and all politicians who keep pushing covid and ‘eat the bugs’. Slay thou them O Lord! Slay thou them. Slay thou them. Slay thou them. Arise O Lord and slay thine enemies. Let not the wicked attain their dersires but cut them down in thy wrath. Amen.” Such a prayer will relieve depression for a man more than the kind they teach in church. And I have been praying it and God is responding. Disney is getting their ass kicked, and the SCOTUS is overturning the baby killer law. So God responds to this kind of prayer more than feminine ones. The OT says, “The Lord is a Man of War.” (Exodus 15:3) We should then pray for him to wage war on his enemies.
“But the Bible says…”
Read Psalms.
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Well, I’m not at all confident that Roe will be overturned. Maybe it will. I am still in the “probably not” camp.
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It’s a pipe dream. The democrat machine will come out in full force. A national law would be passed. Justices would be impeached and the courts packed. Republicans are next level delusional about the issue.
But they want you to think they care about federalism and states rights now.
1- They never did before.
2- It’s not going to actually happen.
3- It’s a cowardly position. “Well it’s not happening in my house, but it’s ok for my neighbor.”
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But then again, I didn’t think Kevin Samuels would drop dead yesterday. And as it turns out, he did.
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@deti
That’s news to me! Now, who will tell women they’ll die alone, or that they’re average at best?
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Oscar:
It’s true – apparently his mother confirmed it today.
NBC News: Kevin Samuels, YouTuber with 1.4M subscribers, has died, his mother says (2022-5-6)
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Wasn’t he with a hooker when he died too?
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Well, that sucks.
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Listening in on a livestream of some “hip”, “in the now”, Christian blog (according to them). Beards. tattoos. Graphic tees. That type of Christianity. They are talking about this… and for such “in the now” Christians who are supposedly “on top of issues facing guys”.
None of them have any idea about Kevin Samuels. It’s kind of funny to watch. When confronted with the news, the one hipster type with a nice jaw said, “Personally, if it’s not Jesus first, it’s not really worrying about or talking about.”
I did not bring up KS’s death. A few others did. Funny watching “in the now” Christians still YEARS behind the world and acting like they are the culture. Another reason why men don’t want to be there.
I mentioned once at a men’s group, “Hey guys, the world has been talking about this issue for almost a decade and a half!”, referring to the opioid epidemic. They looked at me as if to say, “What? Impossible! We Christians are the cutting edge!”
Anyway…….. Sad for Kevin Samuels. The guy had some sharp style.
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With church being the way it is these days, I would have to agree, especially if one is a melancholic personality type. Personally, I attend men’s group more frequently than I attend the worship service. I can worship more effectively by doing something else.
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For Catholics, it’s receiving the sacraments. But they may not even stick around for coffee and donuts after. For Prots, outside of training your kids, there’s not much.
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I doubt most “Prots” would refer to obeying God as “not much”. Why do you?
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Oscar
FWIW I use the shorthand “Prots” sometimes – just for convenience not as an insult. I’ve joked with Elspeth about “Biblicist” or “Bible-ist” some such name – she uses it now!
When I go to mass it’s basically an hour and a half of prayer. When I used to go to a Baptist Church it was basically an hour and a half of sermon/teaching. Not literally, but more or less. I think that’s the point being made. Lutherans, btw, are kind of in the middle – Word and Sacrament. Anglicans just go for the donuts and to hang out with fellow WASPs (joke as a former Anglican).
I agree that a justification for Prots (LoL!) attending service is the Biblical admonition to gather in His name. Peace.
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Cameron,
Bradleys is a big boy. He can speak for himself.
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The passage in Hebrews is to HeBrEwS who were going back to synagogue because they were thinking that Moses is cooler than Christ, hence all the argumentation in Hebrews that Jesus is better than Moses. Your interpreting it as some kind of canon law mandating church attendance rather than telling the HeBrEwS to keep going to church rather than synagogue because Christ is cooler than Moses.
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Like I said below, it doesn’t matter why you’re neglecting the body of Christ. All that matters is that you’re neglecting the body of Christ.
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The church is set up to help women regardless of their failures unquestioned. And it’s set up to help men with their sins that they are to blame for and can stop so that precious women can get better husband’s. I have yet to hear a woman called out on her sin in church approaching a decade. Women don’t need accountability groups to make them better wives. A pastor admitted if they hint at women’s sins %10 down attendance next week they are that fickle which in my books makes them unChristian and I wonder how much attendance would b if they heard the truth.
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As I keep repeating, ad nauseum, as long as today’s “churches” continue to operate like businesses rather than New Testament churches, this is the inevitable result. It is also why you will NEVER see them “discipline” women, who are their biggest paying customers and thus customers who “must be kept happy at all times.”
In summary, the churchian model is an apostate model, which is why it is in free fall everywhere. God most certainly is not going to bless any organization that is in open rebellion against Him (and since churchian franchises are run by and cater to women exclusively, despite being “led” by male figureheads, they are an abomination in God’s sight).
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Some churches discipline women. Remember Jenny Erikson? She’s the most famous case, but I know of churches that have disciplined women for sexual sin, specifically. Then again, I also got kicked out of a church for criticizing the pastor’s unwillingness to discipline a lesbian couple, so it’s a decidedly mixed bag.
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Oscar – I know of churches that have disciplined women over sexual sin as well. Typically, it’s something so blatantly obvious that they can’t ignore it, such as a woman having an adulterous relationship and refusing to end it. So it does happen on occasion.
What I have not come across is any church that has come close to tackling women’s marital and sexual sins at a frequency anywhere close to their dealings with men’s sin in the same areas. From a purely anecdotal perspective, think of how prevalent we hear that “lust is adultery in your heart” and “p0rn is a form of cheating and both hurt your wife and marriage.” Now think of all the times you have heard that “women are to be submissive, which entails obedience, and are not to reject their husbands sexually because that is defrauding him.”
Most pastors cower in fear over the topic of wifely submission in and out of the bedroom. If they happen to brush up against the topic it is done with kid gloves and with so many caveats that the actual meaning of the message is walked back like Michael Jackson doing the moonwalk. The real issue is not whether some churches administer discipline to women over egregious offenses, but whether those churches are consistently pointing out trends in women’s sin as they do with men’s. My hunch is that the percent of churches in the US that are more equitable at identifying male and female sin trends is absurdly low.
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Maybe that is “the real issue”, but I responded to feeriker’s post, which did not include what you believe to be “the real issue”. You can’t expect me to reply to something that isn’t there.
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Scott needs to chime in on this stuff. It’s medieval, proto-psychology but I fit the melancholic temperament pretty well. I read a spiritual explanation somewhere. Melancholics have some sort of intuition for how glorious heaven is – the reality of living in the fallen world contrasted with this intuition is crushing.
My depression is so often about what could have been, how things “should be.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melancholia
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As a fellow melancholic, I know this struggle well. Here are some good resources, as well as some practical advice. You must cultivate a joyous attitude, and this will be painful to a melancholic:
Click to access Melancholic-and-Catholic-Soul.pdf
Click to access rm_temperament_and_the_spiritual_life.pdf
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Bardelys,
Yes, some personalities are more susceptible to melancholia/depression.
In the Meyers-Briggs system, they are Introverted (I) and Thinking (T).
Melancholic individuals tend to be analytical and detail-oriented, and they are deep thinkers and feelers. They are introverted and try to avoid being singled out in a crowd. A melancholic personality leads to self-reliant individuals who are thoughtful, reserved, and often anxious. They often strive for perfection within themselves and their surroundings, which leads to tidy and detail oriented behavior.
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We all have characteristics in all four temperaments but one tends to dominate, especially in times of stress. All four have their positives and negatives. The point is not to pigeonhole people but use it to find the major flaw you need to work on to achieve salvation. Jesus is said to be the perfect mix of all of them, but with none of the defects. It’s possible to correct one and fall into another, with a whole new batch of things to work on.
Melancholics will show up to church more often because it is often a somber, contemplative place. Sanguine people are usually happy and feel they don’t need church as much, or see it as “a drag”. This could be skewing the stats a bit, but then you could argue it’s always been this way. I think our modern times plays to the strengths of these two to keep them miserable: melancholics are in their sadz with no hope, and sanguines are so distracted by “ooh, shiny!” that church never crosses their minds. Just two examples out of many.
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Modern churches are supportive toward women but they are relentlessly negative toward men. If all you hear is negative then that’s going to affect you.
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Devon,
Right. The papers I cited in the OP only offer descriptive facts. The facts are open to interpretation and the assignation of meaning. There are causes and reasons why these facts appear — reasons I believe we have a better chance of apprehending here than any further research would have.
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That, in a nutshell, explains why Christian men –and by which I mean laymen, specifically– suffer from depression. It’s also why they leave churches at rates much higher than women. This itself often compounds the depression, as a lack of fellowship leads to feelings of spiritual isolation (except for those men blessed with virtual spiritual relationships with other like minded men, such as what we have here).
As for clergy, the only reason I can figure for their depression is either that they face well-justified criticism for their lack of spiritual leadership (which includes their capitulation to pressure and blackmail by the goddess contingent), or that on a visceral, spiritual level they KNOW that their gynocentric/misandrist theology is false teaching, but cannot stomach the temporal consequences that will ensue should they begin actually start obeying God. While I don’t want to seem like I’m expressing a type of Schadenfreude here, I will say that trying to please the world at the expense of obeying God and His commandments never ends well for anyone. Maybe if more clergy followed the example of Jesus and the Disciples where church leadership is concerned, depression might not be such a pressing issue.
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I’d be depressed too, if people constantly came to me with their problems, refused to take my advice, and blamed me for the bad results.
There are different kinds of helplessness, and helplessness often leads to rage, or depression.
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The female minister/priestess/pastoress/whatever is a complete, clown-world level absurdity. The two manginas flanking her should be flogged.
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It’s helpful to remember that “going to church” is NOT, repeat NOT, the same thing as “having a relationship with God”.
Having a relationship with God makes men (at least this one) less stressed and less depressed.
Men (at least this one) find it hard to “have a relationship with God” by “going to church”. Because “going to church” in fact HINDERS men’s “relationships with God”.
Women get less stress and less depression by “going to Church” because for women, “going to church” is socializing and virtue signaling and status signaling and amassing social and monetary power. They’re not there for relationship with God.
A relationship with God destresses and uplifts men. Going to church does not, because “going to church” is not ‘relationship with God’.
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Church also affirms them in everything, good or bad. Why would any woman leave that kind of an environment? It’s like asking a crack addict to avoid the abandoned house on the corner where all the users gather.
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Where we go to church now – the women cover their heads and you only hear the priest speak (or sing). Actually, you do hear women’s voices – the nuns sing responsively in the sung mass.
It’s delightfully non-feminized.
In the Novus Ordo feminist churches you have to hear some dyke-haircut liberal woman read the Epistle – barf.
Not a plug for papism – just a bit of brag – I got out of the feminist church bros!!! I hope the same for all of you, regardless of denomination.
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LOL Hail holy Queen! Prayed to your goddess Mary, Queen of Heaven, yet today?
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We’ve discussed this. I answer and you wait a bunch of time and them come back to it. We could go over it again but first you should answer this guy (who spanked you pretty good).
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Kudos on the women’s head coverings though.
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cameron232,
OK I replied to the guy. I hadn’t bothered before, because he basically just claimed I don’t understand Roman Catholicism, and disagreed with what I said. And I still disagree and think he is just willingly deceived. Naturally another Catholic would think his stories and spin “spanked” me just by declaring that I don’t know what I’m talking about, when I still maintain that he is willfully ignorant of the Gnosticism incorporated into Roman Catholicism. Don’t make me quote catholic authorities arguing about Gnosticism in the Catholic church, and how it relates to the pedophile priest scandals.
Above, in response to your comment, I was just trying to point out that Catholicism isn’t free of Feminism and Mariolatry.
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Which sect of gnostics? The Naassenes? Marcionites (part gnostic derived)? These were declared heresies by the Church.
The gnostics went in the opposite direction you suggest. The libertine direction. That the flesh was evil made it inconsequential. It didn’t matter what you did with your body. It’s a different heresy than what you imagine. The dual god heresy reinforced this – the evil god made the flesh. The implication wasn’t excess mortification of the flesh, ascetism, etc. It was licentiousness.
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cameron232,
I don’t care to narrow down Gnosticism to any specific sect, I realize the church has at one point or another condemned them all by name, I was speaking of that whole category of Gnostic beliefs popular at the time of the early church. Augustine himself had been a Manichaean. Even while the church condemned Gnosticism, the church was still influenced by it. Just like our churches today marinate in Feminism, and even as they claim to be resisting “radical” Feminism, they are unknowingly saturated with Feminism.
Funny you should use the word “ascetism”. Which is in itself another religion. Most Gnostic schools of thought led them into very ascetic beliefs and practices. While far fewer Gnostic sects went libertine. The Encyclopedia Britannica says: “In general, Gnostics taught cosmological dualism, strict asceticism, repudiation of material creation as evil, Docetism, and the existence of the divine spark in humans.” So that isn’t just my personal opinion.
I presume your belief leans towards that the magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church is divinely inspired, resistant to all heresy, infallible, and Etc.
Whereas I’m telling you that the Church of Rome is a great whore and she takes in the ideological seed of the world all the time. And all the other churches are spawned from that Mother of Harlots, and they whore after the world too.
You might find the following two links interesting: (Warning: I only skimmed through them)
https://crosstheology.wordpress.com/augustine-gnostic-heretic-and-corruptor-of-the-church/
This next one even references your favorite movie:
https://the-end-time.org/2012/09/08/gnosticism-part-2-asceticism/
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Since we’re on the topic of Gnosticism, I want to direct readers to a series of posts I wrote on this topic last year. A list of posts/links on Gnosticism can be found in this post. If you’re not very familiar with Gnosticism, then reading through these posts will bring you up to speed.
Given the complex and somewhat esoteric nature of the topic of Gnosticism, I urge readers to write a full draft of their arguments and submit it for publication here at Σ Frame or on your own blog. If you choose to do so, please make a clear distinction between historical accounts of Gnosticism and current day manifestations of Gnosticism.
Also, it’s off topic!
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You’re just repeating a claim – “Catholicism absorbed gnostic beliefs” without proof. The only proof you can offer is Catholicism’s differences with Sharkly’s interpretation of the King James Bible (or whatever). In one comment you say Bible based churches aren’t anti-sex like Rome, in another you say they’re all daughters of the harlot. Apparently, your church is some strange combination of puritan and restorationist that exists only on the internet. Every actual church where incarnate human beings actually meet is a daughter-harlot church.
In fact, the Catholic Church’s teaching on sex is hardly different from that of any “bible-based” church 100 years ago. Celibate priests (in the Western rite) is about it. Paul most certainly favors celibacy – it’s right there in the Bible – not super shocked that it would be adopted for priests (not in all rites – the east allows priests to be married and some priest-converts in the west too).
As the other fellow suggested, the Catholic-sacramental teaching on the grace given in marriage, sanctifying sex between a husband and wife (as God intended), is completely opposite of historic Gnosticism. As the other fellow suggested Aquinas’s order was founded to combat the anti-marriage/sex heresy.
The scriptures (2 Peter) warn of Gnosticism (not by name) a very persistent heresy in the early church. The warning is of the licentiousness of the sect not their prudishness.
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@cameron232
Sharkly already provided proof of the Augustinan view of sexuality which is distorted Manichean heresy:
https://www.thebodyissacred.org/origin-st-augustine-sexuality-sin-sex-pleasure/
The problem of Gnosticism is both Licentiousness and Prudishness (which is another form of the rejection of incarnation and of the inherent goodness of bodily existence and function as ordained by God). Just because one is prominent doesn’t mean the opposite heresy isn’t as influential, like the Augustinian views on sexuality which were subsequently corrected by Aquinas.
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He doesn’t just claim it was an Augustine heresy corrected by Aquinas – he claims it’s a pervasive heresy still with us today – still impeding faithful Christian men from ejaculation.
Manicheanism – another Catholic Church-declared heresy. Yeah I know – he said “influenced” – that’s an easy charge because it’s impossible to refute some claim of diffuse “influence” that creates the Rome/Protestant-daughter-whore/pure-invisible-church-of-sharkly differences. Traditionally, Augustine’s tendencies are often attributed to his earlier life of vice and wickedness. The argument that it was Manicheanism that influenced Augustine is one embraced by SOME modern scholars. I’ll just note the incentive for modern scholars to embrace novel theses – if the old guys were right then there’s nothing to do but teach classes. Lord deliver us from the fury of the modern scholar.
He kept chanting “gnosticism” in his comments (which span many interactions we’ve had not just this one) without specificity. So he identified Manicheanism – so what? He missed some important details like “Augustine isn’t the Catholic Church” which was implicit in jamesthe1st’s reply to him.
Gnosticism was a very broad series and widespread of heresies – some manifested antinomianism, others licentiousness. The one common element was salvation by knowledge. Gnostic teachings have roots in very many cultures, traditions, individuals.
He’s the “Bible-alone” guy. The gnostic tendency warned about in the NT is licentiousness not prudishness. If he’s right in general, the Catholic Church is BY FAR, the biggest, most pervasive, most persistent heresy in the history of the Christian religion -not even close. Most Christians in the world follow this heresy- billions. God wouldn’t have warned in the NT about the prudish heresy? When one reads the NT – in terms of threats to believers – does one get a sense that licentiousness or prudishness is consistently warned against? God wouldn’t have anticipated this heresy? Remember the bible speaks to Prots directly with no interpreting magisterium.
And here’s something real important. Catholic sexual morality until 3 weeks ago wasn’t very distinct from Protestant/Biblist morality. Priests can’t marry – that’s about it. All churches taught against birth control until 1930.
I think this discussion started over masturbation. One hundred years ago snake-handlers taught against jacking off rather than embracing it – Augustine and the leaven of Rome influencing rural Alabamans and their KJV only I guess. Only the internet church has figured all this out (with the aid of Saint Google of Menlo Park).
I mean Artisinal Toad went even further. Because of Augustinian Manicheanism we Christians can’t have sex with prostitutes. Dang it Augustine – I want to get my rocks off – bad!!
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Prudishness and Licentiousness reinforce each other. One destroys the marriage from within, the other from the outside, respectively. Even if one grants that Augustine isn’t the Catholic Church, it still doesn’t prove that it wasn’t influential enough to require Aquinas.
As for warnings against prudishness. The New Testament talks also about those who “forbid to marry” and who have to be countered by “The marriage bed is undefiled and is to be honored by all.”
Now that wouldn’t be necessary without twin opposite heresies reinforcing each other.
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Augustine isn’t the Catholic Church. That’s crystal clear.
Sorry, historically I don’t think many marriages were destroyed by Augustine-prudishness. Catholics are the ones known for “breeding like rabbits.” A common historic Protestant criticism was “They’re doing it to outbreed us.”
Catholics aren’t forbidden to marry. That has never been a Catholic teaching and the “breed like rabbits” Catholics haven’t had a practical problem with it.
Given the context of the post where this argument was made, I’m really struggling with what’s being claimed here. Augustine Gnosticism created a culture of no-fapping which (along with licentiousness the opposite heresy) is destroying marriage?
Again, until post modern times (or whatever) Catholic sexual morality wasn’t much different from Protestant. No artificial contraception. Sex was between a husband and wife and in such a way as to be open to life, the natural purpose of sex. Both religions taught that what you do with your God-created sex organs matters.
The main Cath-Prot distinction is priestly celibacy and even that can be documented to ante-Nicene (and thus pre-Augustinian) times and is very arguable from the Bible. St. Paul is clear about celibacy being a higher calling but also realistic that not all are called to that.
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“Given the context of the post where this argument was made, I’m really struggling with what’s being claimed here. Augustine Gnosticism created a culture of no-fapping which (along with licentiousness the opposite heresy) is destroying marriage?”
You haven’t even looked at the link. Its the conflation of all sexual passion with lust that is the problem as I linked myself.
When in reality there is such a thing as healthy Eros(Song of Solomon, Proverbs) that isn’t inordinate lust:
https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2016/12/21/like-a-rutting-buck/
But if sex is mechanical passionless and loveless as Augustine wanted it to be and only for procreation. Doesn’t that make promiscuity more attractive.
If healthy tasty food is denied. And a man is starving wouldn’t he find rotten food more attractive?
Its similar to how Men denied sex by their wives consistently turn to the sinful alternatives of pornography.
Dead Bedrooms make Adultery and Prostitution more attractive for example.
“Sorry, historically I don’t think many marriages were destroyed by Augustine-prudishness.”
You should look into this Catholic’s posts on this topic:
https://socialpathology.blogspot.com/search?q=manichean
It did have an influence. But this disease does need certain conditions to play out more completely. Like a dormant Cold Sore Virus.
Heretical Groups like the Albeginians, Bogomils and Jansenists didn’t arise out of nowhere without drawing from that wellspring that Augustine drew from at least in regards to their attitudes to the Body.
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I’m familiar with the social pathologist- I read his blog. Most of his Manichean-Buddhist-Catholicism posts are about Catholicism (and Christianity)’s tendency to make it’s adherents turn into wimpy punching bags.
“Its the conflation of all sexual passion with lust that is the problem as I linked myself.When in reality there is such a thing as healthy Eros(Song of Solomon, Proverbs) that isn’t inordinate lust:https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2016/12/21/like-a-rutting-buck/But if sex is mechanical passionless and loveless as Augustine wanted it to be and only for procreation. Doesn’t that make promiscuity more attractive.”
Augustine of Hippo (354 to 430) isn’t the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church teaches that there is a unitive function to sex and that the passions properly expressed in the marital bed are licit and good. Per the original topic (why this came up in the other thread) Catholicism also teaches you can’t do anything you want with your sex organs and that doesn’t just mean with someone you’re not married to. This conversation started over whether or not it’s okay for men (and presumably women) to masturbate with the implication that it was Augustinian-Gnosticism that led us (Catholics and I guess Protestants too) to say “no.”
“Its similar to how Men denied sex by their wives consistently turn to the sinful alternatives of pornography.Dead Bedrooms make Adultery and Prostitution more attractive for example.”
That’s one of the main topics of the manosphere and why many if not most guys are here. Modern women’s frigidity has nothing to do with gnostic prudishness. That’s like manosphere 101. See every other deti comment for an explanation of this. Modern sexless marriages are NOT characterized by prudish women. Modern women are not prudish.
I don’t claim that there have never been anti-body/sex types in and out of the church. The gnostic ones are heretics.
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Yet they are prudish inside marriage and promiscious outside marriage. All anti-marriage in accordance with the Gnostic/Manichean philosophy that embraces both opposite errors.
Concidential with demonic influence don’t you think?
So what? Don’t think that those who read Augustine didn’t sympathize with his positions on sex which is not Church teaching and no doubt those beliefs did bear bad fruit. There has been no condemnation of the equating of all Eros with Lust by the Catholic Church, when there is a true distinction in reality.
The official church teaching didn’t stop Bridal Mysticism from taking hold unofficially, as Leon J. Podles saw.
As for masturbation, I admit not really endorsing that, so I am unfamiliar with the discussion outside this thread. And we all know that Prostitution is biblically condemned, which Artisanal Toad went off the deep end with.
I am only chiming in about Augustine’s errors in this area, and the evidence about that.
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Ok no problem. I’m arguing with Sharkly through you – my fault.
I don’t think the contemporary phenomenon of women being sluts outside of marriage and prudes inside marriage has any inheritance from Augustine of Hippo. Most of them are not really Christian believers, this phenomenon isn’t exaggerated in Catholic women, it’s found just as prominently in Evangelical women and secular women.
It comes from: female nature, female sexual experience (alpha widowhood, etc ), low male status, women not needing men. Not from Augustine. Secular couples around me who aren’t Christians who can’t spell “Augustine”, who’ve never set foot in a Catholic Church have this problem.
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Oh. And “going to church” is NOT the same thing as
— Glorifying God.
— Praising God.
— Worshiping God (I mean real worship. I don’t mean standing alongside “Buddy Christ”. I mean falling on your face in awe of what your God did for you and the fact that He did it and the fact that you cannot and the fact that He is God and you are not and you never will be and without Him you will be a charcoal briquette burning in hell for all eternity.)
— Praying to God (I mean really praying. I mean making your requests known to God, I mean supplication with humility and awe to God; I mean confessing your sins to God; I meaning taking your problems to God and releasing them to God.)
— Serving your fellow man.
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Of course all of that “takes work and effort,” something that is anathema and offensive to modern sensibilities. It’s much easier to just play act and fake it with emotions. That explains why women do churchianity so much better than men.
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I call this “feeelz gud christianality” or “Coffee Shop Churchianity”. Basically, people will go to church because it’s a cool, fun, social club with ostensibly decent, upright people. When people go for the additional motivation of garnering popularity, then it’s a form of status signaling. Anything opprobrious to the sensational sensuality is carefully avoided.
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This is one of those weird things where Protestants will say, “We don’t go to church, we ARE the church”, and then turn around and tell you that if you don’t go to church every Sunday then you’re not the church. “The church isn’t the building, its the people of God” …until you miss a Sunday or few.
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You can’t love Christ and not His bride.
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Wouldn’t it be great if that actually happened in church?!?
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I’ve certainly found it to be great, because it does happen.
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This also explains why he treats non-church-attendance as losing the sacrifice of Christ — “there is no more sacrifice” — because these aren’t Christians who are avoiding church over gynocentricism at church but are HeBrEwS who are going back to Judaism and rejecting Christ because they concluded Moses was better (“the old wine is better”).
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It doesn’t matter why you’re neglecting the body of Christ. All that matters is that you’re neglecting the body of Christ.
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Kevin Samuels. Dead. Age 56.
NBC News: Kevin Samuels, YouTuber with 1.4M subscribers, has died, his mother says (2022-5-6)
WOW. Just WOW. I am now “mopey dopey” for the weekend.
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The baby-mammas and Big Shirleys who are gloating over his death are proving him right. Remember, if you are an average man, this is what they truly think of you. Better to live in the corner of a roof, indeed.
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If an average man is honestly concerned what these women think (and evidently he is), then we’re in deeper trouble than I ever imagined! And yet…… AND YET…… men are supposed to go out, “just become alpha”, and find that woman who is 18, a virgin and has an intact hymen, and has all the skills to be a housewife…… “They’re everywhere! Just go to church!”
Per ususal, the Red Pill will miss both the boat and the dock on this — ignoring that Kevin Samuel’s biggest audience was single men who had never married and were childfree. He has been twice divorced and didn’t play this, “I’m the big monkey” in the room with the men he consulted. He just knew how to talk to them… black men in particular… He never ONCE mentioned how many chicks he bedded, nor how hot, how amazing he was. He just gave his take.
But just the same, I liked his style. I liked his “cut the bullsh!t” attitude. Too bad he’s gone… but he left not a day too soon. He was resonating in areas where many in the sphere cannot resonate with, and the big shot guys won’t be having any of that. Kevin is in better place for sure. This world is a pretty miserable place to be stuck in.
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Most men are average, and should be marrying average women. This is the message KS was telling people. Date at your level, or level up if you want more. So while you’re correct that we shouldn’t lay awake at night worried about what these 4-9ers think of us, their attitude IS causing most of the problems here, and it needs to be addressed. The first step is recognizing their acrimony for the average man. These women are ugly, inside and out. For many men, KS was the first one to rip the mask off of women and show them that they are NOT sugar and spice and everything nice. Tread carefully.
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You definitely like being told to “get your $h!t together”, and “you’re full of…. excuses”, like this guy.
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Sad news. Blacks everywhere should grieve because he’s probably done more for the black community than anyone else has in the past 20 years.* My first thought (as with Zippy Catholic) was that he was making too much of a positive impact on the black community for the comfort of the PTB and their Woke minions, and they finally got to him. I’ve noticed that any internet personality exceeding 1M followers seems to be put on a watch list. Over the next few weeks, I’ll be searching internet sources carefully to see if there’s any evidence of foul play.
*Jesse Lee Peterson comes in at a close second.
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I lead worship every week in my home. It won’t matter who else shows up; I’m following my convictions. The numbers have varied over the years.
I don’t fit on that four-sided chart; I have too many strong traits from all of them. I grew to hate testing and categories when nothing ever fit me, and I was pigeon-holed for someone else’s convenience. The whole game is a western artifact and not in the Bible. I pay attention to that stuff, but I seldom take any of it seriously. I learn it so I can help others escape it.
There is depression lurking in my personality, but I’m too busy to let it seize me. It surfaces on rare occasions. Then again, I’m very strongly otherworldly, so I dismiss my fleshly nature as the single greatest source of my troubles. Depression doesn’t manifest in my spiritual nature.
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I wonder how much of this is the biased population.
In other words, the vast majority of Churches in the US are feminized. It wouldn’t surprise me that the ‘beta factories’ are pumping out depressed men. The various books like, Why men hate going to Church and The Church Impotent, basically compile various reasons why men in Church would be depressed (and a bunch of the fed up ones leave it).
Compare and contrast that to the more interspersed mission focused and more masculine Churches. It would be interesting to see if there’s a big difference or not. I suspect there is.
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“Mission focused” and “more masculine” churches… Where? WHERE??????
Aaron Renn’s church? Yours? These churches are about as rare as “amazing women who don’t have tattoos and just want to be a wife.”
I hear some men saying, “These Christian women are everywhere!”, and then the same men proceed to tell other men, “Nope. None left. We married them all. The rest of you will just have to burn with passion and accept that this is a faith of suffering.”
Likewise, if these churches exist, it’s an exclusive club. Only the top 20% men are allowed in.
It’s all nonsense to those men who are not in the club!
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The Amish and Old Order Mennonites — LoL!
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Only Orthodox seem to get it down pat so far:
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Orthodoxy has a gazillion female saints…they bow to painted icons and sing chants to them…..thats masculine now. Its also a closed church. Not Russian? Dont go to the local Russian Orthodox church.
To their credit they at least SAY who is allowed.
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There are Orthodox saints that everyone remembers, and there are Orthodox saints that are specific to one patriarchate or another.
Now, IMO, the Roman Catholics and the Orthodox, put too much attention on Mary, and the Protestants and their ilk give her too little honor and attention.
Thus there is a feminizing element in the over veneration of Mary.
In eight years, I’ve not seen any particular adoration or attention paid to the other female saints.
As for the icons, the Catholics and Orthodox have icons. The Protestants don’t. I doubt any Orthodox today believes that the icons themselves have magic powers as was the accusation surrounding iconoclasm, but it’s the accusation of the Protestants against the Catholics and Orthodox. Not going to change anyone’s mind on it.
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I don’t know about Orthodox, but I saw that among Latin American Catholics. And the Catholic Church down there not only looks the other way, but encourages it. North American Catholics deny it, they never believe me, even when I provide evidence, but it’s the truth.
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I can never decide whether to laugh or to cry when churchians demonstrate just how clueless and ignorant about the wider world they really are, despite clearly being more in love with it than with Jesus. It’s as if this verse never meets their eyes:
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Off topic: just because it’s funny
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Kyle is just not into milfs.
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Yes, that is perhaps Orthodoxy’s greatest negative, its ethno-centrism. To be fair, this is more pernicious in some Orthodox churches than in others (the Greeks are probably the worst in this respect, and they’re also the least devout; the Orthodox Church for them is largely an ethnic social club [in Greece itself it’s literally a National Government institution, the priests being actual employees of the Greek government]). YMMV with other ethnic flavors.
Scott has mentioned the idea of an American Orthodox church, but also admits that he has no idea what that would look like. I have no idea either, as I cannot envision another American-originated denomination of Christianity that would be anything but a heretical reflection of the national secular culture.
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There is an American Orthodox Church. It was an offshoot of the Russian church sent to Alaska, and made American when we bought the territory. It’s partially autocephalous, with Russia (obviously) recognizing it while others don’t.
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Off topic: I don’t want to hear another damned word about “slippery slope fallacies”.
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Denial of the “slippery slope” is inherently a confirmation of it.
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