What Women find Attractive: Fit and Skilled

A reminder of what’s important in the eyes of the ladies.

Readership: Men;
Theme: Overcoming Obstacles
Length: 450 words
Reading Time: 1.5 minutes

I received a private message from a female reader on 2022-4-13. She writes,

“As an older woman who can’t sing, I would just like to encourage younger brothers that if they just try their darnedest at ANYTHING, it will probably be attractive to at least one sister. I say this reflecting on the odd variety of men I’ve found attractive in the 48 years since I hit puberty. The only thing they all had in common were that they were fit (but for their build), and there was one other thing that they were really into and really good at.

That is all. That’s what’s attractive. I hope someone finds that useful.

Good bye.”

Now usually, I don’t take women’s opinions very seriously, especially about what they find attractive in men. However, I am more willing to accept her advice because she is an older, more mature lady who obviously means well, and I think she probably doesn’t have the ulterior motives that most younger women do. Also, she is reaffirming a couple truths that we already know, but we may not be very well aware of how they come across as important to women.

  1. Strength, of which Fitness is a basic prerequisite.
  2. Mission, of which Skill is an implicit and essential part.

If you think about it, these two traits combined pretty much sum up the core of masculinity.

Furthermore, this lady’s message reminds us of what is really important for men to focus on in the competitive meet market, and it’s not the women themselves. It’s US! This gives new meaning to the Manospherian Maxim, “Men are the prize!”

It’s a 1960 Buick Electra, in case you’re wondering…

In addition to Fitness and Skill, Sharkly and Red Pill Apostle pointed out that one’s passion carries a huge influence.

If you can show that your enterprise/project/work is a source of great excitement and enthusiasm for you and others, then women latch on to that in order to be a part of that excitement and enthusiasm.

People who are passionate about their project/work/hobby/goals/purpose are attractive to others and that passion draws people in. It works in business. It works with women. Many times it’s the passion that tips the scale in your favor.

So we could add Joy/Enthusiasm to Fitness/Strength and Skill/Mission.

Staying fit and active, getting proper nutrition, fasting periodically, and developing our knowledge, skills, abilities, education, and careers along our individual life-callings are things that all men should be doing.

In sum, her message reaffirms that our efforts in these areas do not go unnoticed by the ladies.

Keep up the good work, Men!

Related

About Jack

Jack is a world traveling artist, skilled in trading ideas and information, none of which are considered too holy, too nerdy, nor too profane to hijack and twist into useful fashion. Sigma Frame Mindsets and methods for building and maintaining a masculine Frame
This entry was posted in Agency, Attraction, Conserving Power, Diet and Nutrition, Fasting, Female Evo-Psych, Introspection, Male Power, Models of Success, Personal Domain, Personal Presentation, Physical Training, Psychology, Self-Concept, Sexual Authority, SMV/MMV. Bookmark the permalink.

147 Responses to What Women find Attractive: Fit and Skilled

  1. whiteguy1 says:

    But, but, but, Jack… The girls say what they really want is a simp, with no backbone, character, or muscles, so you are totally wrong here….

    LULZ: 6 creepy signs he’s definitely NOT ‘the one’ (2022-4-17)

    If this is a satire site, it’s pretty great… Embrace your inner cat lady!

    Like

    • Scott says:

      whiteguy1

      That is a great link. Also, you may notice something. The article is essentially the women’s side of the blue pill, if there is such a thing. It contains the kinds of things women say to each other and has nothing to do with attraction, really. Sure, there is some stuff in there about guys who’s muscles are “too big” but only in the sense that it is some kind of tell about his right-wing politics and meanness.

      But every woman reading it — no matter how brainwashed — knows that none of the traits (or lack thereof) listed in the article override the omnibus truth of “if she already thinks you are hot.”

      The women reading this know that any man taking notes and saying to himself “ah, see, I have all that stuff!” better be hot first, or no amount of virtue signaling about being “anti racist” is going to get you to the part where you are naked and alone with her.

      Liked by 1 person

    • thedeti says:

      LOL They must have missed the article where some feminist was so mad at herself for being attracted to a conservative MAGA man (who was physically attractive) and the other one where some feminist lamented that she had aged out of getting catcalls and ogling.

      “Oh please, won’t some hot man sexually harass, er, I mean, notice, me?!” (Proving, once again, that it’s not sexual harassment if she thinks you’re sexually attractive.)

      Women will swipe right on ch!ld m0l3st3r5, racists, chauvinist pigs, and criminals…. if they think those men are hot.

      Like

  2. Scott says:

    The meme that has all the ripped shirtless firefighters and at the bottom says something about how it would be worth it to burn the house down so these guys show up is funny because its true.

    Always add to EVERYTHING they say about what they want:

    “If she already thinks you are hot.”

    You must get over the hot threshold first. Once you have that part, it doesn’t really matter what you do.

    “I like a man [who I already think is hot] who can talk about his feelings.”

    “I like a man [who I already think is hot] who changes diapers.”

    “I like a man [who I already think is hot] who is kind.”

    “I like a man [who I already think is hot] who will help me around the house.”

    See. It’s really easy, and you don’t have to get all stressed out over deciphering what they say.

    Liked by 3 people

    • Scott says:

      I mean really. Just relax.

      “I like a man who loves animals [and is hot].”

      “I like a man who gets along with my friends [and is hot].”

      “I like a man who opens doors [and is hot].”

      “I like a man who has a sense of humor [and is hot].”

      ………

      I don’t mean to belabor the point, but it really can’t be overstated.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Red Pill Apostle says:

      In addition to “If she thinks you are hot.” always add “to/for/with/help me” to what women say about what they want to fully understand her mindset.

      “I like a man [who I already think is hot] who can talk about his feelings (with me).”

      “I like a man [who I already think is hot] who changes diapers (to help me).”

      “I like a man [who I already think is hot] who is kind (to me).”

      “I like a man [who I already think is hot] who will (help me) around the house.”

      “I like a man [who I already think is hot] who will open doors (for me).”

      “I like a man [who I already think is hot] who will provide a good lifestyle (for me).”

      Liked by 2 people

  3. Lastmod says:

    Scott is correct here. The woman who wrote you Jack though maybe “well intentioned” still wants the guy working on that 1960 Buick. Shirtless. In her driveway, so her friends can see.

    Jack, its the usual. I guy like me, even when I was young could get a gal flowers “ewwwwww creepy” and the shirtless guy would get the “Oh he is soooooooo sensitive, and knows how to treat a gal”

    It has ALWAYS been this way, but it is so amplified today, right into the stands, or out of the park.

    In 1960, the year of that Buick. A twenty year old guy who was in college studying for whatever para-profession could at least get a wife……usually setup on a blind date through a friend or friend of a friend. How many times have I heard from women “Oh, hmmmm all the girtls I know…myself included…are dating really awesome guys right now”

    translation: “I am not afraid of you, you’re okay. I, and all of my friends would never date you…and I’ll make sure of that!”

    Its not that I am bitter or jaded now…….its not eveb basic jealously at this point towards my fellow men. Its just….sometimes……..I jsut think I was cheated out of something that was beyond my scope of intellect, social accuement, physical appearance and wrong place at the wrong time.

    Life isnt bad. In fact, its pretty good considering………I see so many “single moms” and kids without an “involved dad” or a terrible father….and I just think “and I just wasnt good enough” and then I am comforted now when at least Scott here tells the truth. It helps.

    Liked by 4 people

    • Sharkly says:

      While I LOL that the manosphere is yet again prioritizing what women want, I’ll offer some unsolicited advice to you:
      The original post above contains truth. Not only should you have something you’re passionate about, but it is extremely helpful with women if one of the things that you love and you’re passionate about is your own self and your greatness.

      I assume that your self-deprecating attitude and comments make you repulsive to women. While God may appreciate humility, women loathe humility when it is genuine. Remember women are natural defilers, so what women desire and what God desires often being completely opposite, only makes sense.

      When you make self deprecating comments like saying that you’re ugly or that you’re stupid, women will avoid you like poison. Even if they say, you’re not ugly, or you’re not stupid, the damage is already done and they will despise you for thinking poorly of yourself. Furthermore when you go on about your life being tough or a struggle and people treating you poorly, that isn’t going to be something they will want to become a part of.

      Now, I’m not telling you to become arrogant. I’m just telling you to portray some arrogance and zero self-deprecating while interacting with women if you want to attract them. Remember women call arrogance “self-confidence” when they’re attracted to you. They only feel that your self-appreciation is undue arrogance after they have come to feel that you don’t deserve to be appreciated.

      For most every woman you’ve ever met, they’re probably already to that point, so for you to be able to pull off a cocky-funny attitude, it will most likely have to be with new acquaintances. Because if women already have you pegged as being uncool, they’ll try pretty ruthlessly to break you down if you suddenly start showing great pride in yourself. You have to be to the point where you can humorously laugh their attacks off with a grin and double down on your self-aggrandizement. Getting observably hurt or acting too offended by their Sh!t-testing will blow your whole effort to convince them you’re a high-value mate.

      You can practice by just considering what I have said and not responding to my suggestions with a bunch of negativity, or that nothing can ever work for you. FWIW I know some Chads who are far less intelligent than you who attract women like crazy, so it isn’t like you need to be a Poindexter to attract women. In fact being too cerebral will actually be boring to most women.

      Also, it might not hurt to allow women to perceive you as a bit dangerous. Trying to assure them you’re a nice guy actually works against both attraction and humor. Women will laugh a lot more at the jokes of an imposing or intimidating man especially if he seems a bit dangerous, dominant, or willing to challenge polite society’s rules, even if some of it is “nervous laughter”. I think that is part of why so few female comedians are as funny as good male comedians.

      I know that a complete personality reversal is not easy nor natural, but it is possible, and you can then gradually work on making aspects of your new “confident” persona more permanent. You’ve got a lot of things about you that are worthy of respect, so you just need to focus on the fact that women have plenty of reason to be looking up to you and have that confident attitude as your underlying expectation, when you interact with them.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Lastmod says:

        Oh who knows at this point? I am going to be 52 in a few weeks. In fact, I’ll be in England when that happens. Leaving May 31, returning June 30.

        If you are under 35 or around there…… a guy in my situation could have a good chance of turning it around, but the House at that point is stacked against you.

        I hear daily from women about how “we’re taking over” kind of nonsense. Well, we had a delivery from the local Office Depot here. None of the items were mine. I was asked by one of my female co-workers here in this office, “Jay (it’s always “Jay” when something is needed… “Jason” when I am not needed), can you move these items into Chloe’s office and mine? Pleeeease!”

        I looked up and said, “Are they heavy?” and she said, “Oh my god, yes!”

        “Well, princess-of-power, it looks like you might break out a sweat today.” I smirked and went back to work. “Hey close the door please. Expecting a call.”

        She closed the door and yelled, “Assh0le!” as she walked away.

        Now, when Mike refuses (our pretty boy / the good looking manager here), the women get apologetic. “Oh, I had no idea you were busy! Sorry!” He makes flippant remarks like I did above, and gets a HUGE pass for “standing up for himself” and guarding his manhood. I, however, am just an “assh0le”.

        Has it always been this way? Yes. It has. The fact that a guy’s looks now play such a HUGE part in this just amplifies the pre-selection now. At least in 1964 she would not have cussed at me as she was leaving (how brave and bold of her), and she at least would have had better fashion sense like all people did back then.

        Anyway, “House” here always gets to the bone. Excellent script writing.

        Liked by 3 people

      • Sharkly says:

        “I, however, am just an “assh0le”.”

        Not just any A-hole. You’re the A-hole who just rejected her entreaty, and jerkishly exerted your superior status. Although I wasn’t there to witness the interaction, it sounds like you made a decent move and I would interpret her reaction as a positive reaction in that she basically responded back with a Sh!t-test. If she actually hated you and really thought you were an A-hole, then she wouldn’t have said it out loud so that you could hear her. It sounds like banter to me. In a similar future exchange you might respond back with something like, “That’s MISTER @ssh0le, to you!”, and then just grin and chuckle. Or you might teasingly say, “Part of ‘TAKING OVER’ is taking your own stuff over to where it belongs”, and then laugh.

        I think her response sounds like what a young woman in today’s culture might say to a friend she trusts who just put her in her place. Although it might be counterintuitive, I’d see that as a positive interaction with one of today’s women.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Lastmod says:

        Sharkly,

        Ummmmm……. No, I am the @ssh0le. “How dare that GUY who is OLD and UNATTRACTIVE not help a round-house-@ss-kicking-hot-girl like me!!! He is supposed to help me!!!”

        It’s not as if I ever had a shot with her, and EVEN if I could, if I was you, Scott, DS, Deti, Nova… oh okay, EVERYONE else here….. why would I WANT to be with her? She’s a straight up b!tch. Why would I waste my time on THAT?

        If I was still a Red Pill guy, I would monkeysuit, do some showboatin’ and neg, and mock, and laugh and TRY to build attraction with a woman who is a straigh up b!tch. Oh, “but she’s hot!”

        I have behaved this way around women for well over a decade and a half. I am an @ssh0le for this behavior. With the good or better looking, it is called Frame / Dominance / Masculinity, but for me, it is not.

        I was there you were not.

        Like

      • Jack says:

        “Why would I WANT to be with her? She’s a straight up b!tch. Why would I waste my time on THAT?”

        Don’t do it for the b!tch. Do it for yourself. Enjoy yourself. Have fun with it. Revel in your mastery.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Sharkly says:

        Lastmod,
        I swear to you she respects you more for standing up to her, especially if she is hot and used to other men doing exactly what she asks them to do.
        You probably shouldn’t try to have romance where you work. You flirt a bit and engage in a little banter to make your job easier and like Jack said, to have fun. Obviously if a romance starts and then it implodes you’re possibly out of a job, so that’s why you never let things get serious with your coworkers or subordinates.

        But the more the women like you and possibly see you as dateable, the easier they will be to work with. And since they all talk, and have a hivemind, improving your relationship a bit with any one of them helps to improve it with all the others as well. Or, as the old saying goes: flirt a bit with the fat chick because she probably has some skinny friends.

        Like

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Lastmod,

        “Ummmmm……. No, I am the @ssh0le. “How dare that GUY who is OLD and UNATTRACTIVE not help a round-house-@ss-kicking-hot-girl like me!!! He is supposed to help me!!!”

        It’s not as if I ever had a shot with her, and EVEN if I could, if I was you, Scott, DS, Deti, Nova… oh okay, EVERYONE else here….. why would I WANT to be with her? She’s a straight up b!tch. Why would I waste my time on THAT?

        If I was still a Red Pill guy, I would monkeysuit, do some showboatin’ and neg, and mock, and laugh and TRY to build attraction with a woman who is a straigh up b!tch. Oh, “but she’s hot!”

        You did well in your interaction even if it doesn’t feel like it. You set a boundary with a woman and she got pissed. This is the status quo. Mrs. Apostle has made HUGE strides over the past couple years and she still has pissy moments when I tell her ‘no’, but she gets over it and eventually adheres to my boundary which makes life so much easier. You took a big step in this direction with your coworker so hold your ground and don’t backpedal a single step.

        Your female co-worker probably thought of you as a nice guy who would do things for her just because she lacks the Y chromosome and she asked. Her reaction to you was her recoiling at not having power she thought she had. I love snarky, sarcastic quips so “princess of power” made me laugh. Try mixing in “encouraging” snarkiness from time to time just to see how women react. In the interaction with the power princess it might be something like this, “You are a strong, independent woman. I have faith in you. You got this! Now please close my door. I have a call I need to be on.”

        Liked by 2 people

      • Lastmod says:

        All of this goes back to Scott:

        Be a boss! (only if she thinks you’re hot)
        Be a man! (only if she thinks you’re hot)
        Be playful and tease her (only if she thinks you’re hot)
        Stand up to her (only if she thinks you’re hot)

        It goes on. I have spoken and behaved this way around women for over a decade. In the end, I am an assh*le, a creep, a loser, a jerk…….

        It just depends on who you are. Thats it. Im not hurt or bothered by this because I deal with this behavior at work, I did in the church and other areas of my life for a long time. You’re hot? Good looking (according to her): you are standing up for yourself as a man and all the other fillers and sayings

        Otherwise you’re a creep and a jerk, and being something you are not…….I guarantee at work today, I will be spoken to by manager about “being a team” and “she just asked you to help, and if you could not You just had to politely say ‘no thank you, I am very busy’ or call the maintenance dept and get them to move the boxes and supplies, there is a right way and arong way…”

        But Mike (the good looking manager) will NEVER get this lecture. Its cool, I am so used to this doube stadard at work, in church, in social settings……it wont phase me a bit. Also, I deliver work wise (and have done so in every job I have had since getting sober) so I know my job is not in jeaopardy.

        This woman has zero resepct for me. She would if it was any of you here I am sure. Actually I would put money on it.

        The handsome can do no wrong in this world when it comes to stuff like this

        Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Lastmod,

        “Otherwise you’re a creep and a jerk, and being something you are not…….I guarantee at work today, I will be spoken to by manager about “being a team” and “she just asked you to help, and if you could not You just had to politely say ‘no thank you, I am very busy’ or call the maintenance dept and get them to move the boxes and supplies, there is a right way and arong way…””

        You do you, but this is where you don’t backpedal one. single. step. You can admit something along the lines of “maybe I could have phrased my thoughts the better” as a lead into the crux of the issue which seems to be that she’s more upset you wouldn’t stop what you were doing to help her (entitlement to your help on her part), even though she is more than capable herself. In reading what you wrote this is the way the interaction comes across to me.

        Like

      • Lastmod says:

        Yeah….. like clockwork!

        At about 8:30 AM, my Manager (the executive manager who oversees me, and three other managers at my level), peeked politely through the window, smiled and made a motion as if to say, “Hey…. May I come in?”

        Smiled, gestured for her to come in.

        She opened the door, peeked in. Smiled. “Hey, there’s my rock star on this team! Good morning, I’ll be brief. When someone just asks for help…. you know… there are better ways to reply. Okay?”

        I smirked and said, “You got it. Understood.”

        She smiled, gave me a thumbs up and left. That is why I like my manager. She “had” to do this for office politics and company protocols I am sure. I could tell by everything in her body language……. the way she looked at me……… She probably thought, “Oh for eff’s sake. Miss Girl, grow a spine and leave me a lone on stuff like this. Jason is busy, works 50x harder than all of you. Take a lesson from him…”

        Business moves on. Again the co-worker in question is not attracted to me, does not respect me, and actually thought she could boss me around. She “tattled” to my manager. If she really did like me, and didn’t think I was a loser, she would have never done that.

        I like my manager. She does good work, and stays outta my way. She’s professional. Pretty. Probably 35 or so. Not married but dating a guy who works in the Hollywood industry (not an actor). When I asked her for a month off for my vacation. It was granted with zero questions. She know numbers wise and client satisfaction that I deliver and that is what she is all about.

        Her favorite phrase is: “Bring me the baby not the pain!”

        Liked by 2 people

      • Joe2 says:

        “Women will laugh a lot more at the jokes of an imposing or intimidating man, especially if he seems a bit dangerous, dominant, or willing to challenge polite society’s rules, even if some of it is “nervous laughter”. You can then gradually work on making aspects of your new “confident” persona more permanent.”

        But it also helps, or now is a necessity, to be able to backup your persona with money, having lots of money. It’s having money that validates you to women. They will view you as an iconoclast, but you must be doing something right and to them you are a winner and not a loser.

        Like

    • whiteguy1 says:

      Lastmod…

      One thing I can never figure out about you, brother, is how you say your not strong enough/smart enough/handsome enough to do whatever… DUDE!

      You’re over 6 ft. tall, you’ve got 2 (count them 2) patents, and you have successfully beaten back a serious chemical/mental addiction for over 18 years!!!!! I mean, WHAT THE ACTUAL HELL MAN?!?!??!

      Look, I will never be as tall as you; I hope to some day be issued least one patent in my name, and I hope to have the consistency and rock solid fortitude that it takes to overcome something as serious as an addiction, in some little way at the gym with my training. I’ve been doing it 6 years now and I’ve got a long ways to go to catch up with you.

      Yeah, I might have gotten ‘the girl’… Well, the joke is on me. I’ve lost more than 70% of my wealth being divorce raped, my two teenage daughters are alienated from me and my family, and Crazy is still screwing with me.

      So… ya gotta stop with the pity party brother. You’ve got your sh!t together, don’t let your reflection tell you otherwise.

      I know we keep harping on it, but go pick some heavy sh!t up, at the gym, in the woods whatever, just get some anaerobic exercise to keep your bones nice and strong. If you can kick coke’s @ss, you can kick anything else you put your mind to.

      Liked by 3 people

      • Jack says:

        “If you can kick coke’s @ss, you can kick anything else you put your mind to.”

        Amen, and TheMan, brother!

        Liked by 1 person

      • Lastmod says:

        Whiteguy:

        First. There is nothing I can say to your sorrow, what you are dealing with. I can say “Im sorry” and perhaps offer a word of encouragement. Then again, for a man who has never been through what you are going through…..my words may come off as callous, or just “oh it will get better” kind of thing. I dont want to be like that.

        I will say just this. There are all kinds of pain. Not meant in a “Mister Rogers” or classic “Sesame Street” way (thanks for nothing Big Bird). I cannot imagine what you are experiencing here. I know the burden is probably heavy, painful and at times just boggling.
        If I tried to relate, perhaps I would only make you more upset.

        Second. The money from those patents went into a cocaine dealers pocket (who looked like Mr. Peterman from “seinfeld” (for real), and up my nose, during a long ago time of hard partying on and around fog-soaked San Francisco streets. Electric nights. It would be a few years until the waiter brought the bill Now, lets be real here. They didnt change the world. There was nothing revolutuonary about them. In the end it was just a “fresh set” of eyes on the process that just stated the obvious. I am sure someone could come into my job, right now and just say “why dont you do it like this” and it would be so clear as day and I would be annoyed at “right in front of me, and I didnt notice that”. It took time to think it out, and make the tool in question for one of them, but honestly…..if I didnt think it, someone else would have.

        Lastly. I don’t have it together. I just function now. I stay out of trouble. I am productive and not a drain on the taxpayer, or the community at large. That’s normal, everyday responsibility most people do have. AS I age, I am more perplexed now. Not as angry or upset…….just perplexed as to why I turned out the way I did. There is nothing really overtly exciting about me, or who I am. I like music. I collect record, and vintage stereo equipment. I like modern post-war architecure. I believe after 1974 the country pretty much was doomed and has been decline ever since. No, Trump did not drain the swamp or make America “great again”

        I fully admit something went wrong aside from the drugs and the like….and in the end, now; as I am balding by the month. I dont own a home. I feel more perplexed by women more than ever despite all the massive / copious info out there about them. That is why Scott’s take on this is actually refreshing. The truth should be told to men in my situation when they are 35 or so. I could have at least been much further along if I had that info or reality check instead of people telling me different.

        And my issues were all “self inflicted” anyway…….so I have to be like the woman with the high “n count” and pretty much live in shame for the rest of my life…be an “incomplete” man because I have not had sex according to more than a few……and be told again, that I just didn’t try hard enough.

        I’ll never relapse. That I know. Besides, even if I went to the gym, I still wouldn’t be doing it “right”. I frankly have had enough of everyone telling me what I am doing wrong, shifting goal posts and pointing a finger, accusing me of a pity party. Im just telling the truth. the lower 80% are not all mouth breathers who weigh two tons and have thick glasses and bad haircuts…..

        Like

      • Joe2 says:

        Lastmod…

        “Otherwise you’re a creep and a jerk, and being something you are not……. I guarantee at work today, I will be spoken to by the manager about “being a team” and “She just asked you to help, and if you could not, you just had to politely say, ‘no thank you, I am very busy’, or call the maintenance department and get them to move the boxes and supplies. There is a right way and a wrong way…”

        The manager should speak to her and tell her that she should not have asked you to help. She should have gone to maintenance first. She is the one who needs to be instructed on the proper procedures. But most likely, the manager will give her a pass.

        Liked by 3 people

    • Jack says:

      Jason, thanks for opening up and telling us this little story about office princess. TBH, I was a little surprised because I didn’t think that you had much game, but you do.

      All, LastMod shared a video he made about the discussion here, but he left it under the wrong post.

      LastMod has latched onto the idea that the guys here are saying that creating genuine attraction should be his goal in this situation. I agree with Jason that trying to create genuine attraction in a specific girl would be rather Blue Pill. But I think that is not what the guys here intended. Their statements about attraction are not so much about creating genuine attraction, but about presenting an image of self-respect, emotional security, and psychological maturity, which generally come across as attractive traits for a man to have.

      The thing that LastMod should be focusing on here is NOT a rejection of the idea that he should try to get office princess to be genuinely attracted to him (although that idea should be rejected anyway), but rather that he needs to have a stronger psychological detachment. He is letting that girl’s immature snobbiness rile him, and he’s not really having fun with the whole situation nor doing it for himself. I also sense that he has some bitterness towards her, or towards women like her.

      Bottom line is, gentlemen, b!tches gonna b!tch, so the challenge is to view the circus animals as your daily entertainment, instead of letting her get under your skin and become an annoyance (that is what detachment means in this case). A little more humility is the key to doing this. His boss is really cool with him, so if he would make this frame adjustment then everything will go even more smoothly than it does now.

      Incidentally, today’s post will cover some ways for men to deal with cold wives and circus animals.

      Like

  4. thedeti says:

    Herewith the reasons women won’t say “…and who I am sexually and physically attracted to” when describing what they find “attractive”.

    1) It’s just assumed. You’re expected to “just get” this (hat tip Rollo). Talk to women about this, and they look at you like you have an arm growing out of your forehead. “Well, um, of COURSE he has to be sexually and physically attractive before anything else happens! I mean, don’t you guys just KNOW that?? What’s wrong with you? What, do we have to spell everything out for you?”

    2) Related to 1): Women communicate indirectly. They don’t communicate directly because they fear retribution, ostracism, or violence if they speak directly.

    3) They don’t want to look shallow and superficial. They don’t want guys to think they’re b!tches.

    4) They want to preserve the myth of female mystery. They want men to think they’re so inscrutable, so “deep”, so “mysterious”, and so “complex” that women can’t be figured out. It’s a source of female power and they want to keep it.

    Relationships, at bottom, are about power: Who has it, who wields it, where it is shifting. Whoever has power in the relationship controls and directs its course.

    And women aren’t that hard to figure out. Once you have the basic concepts, women are quite easy to decipher.

    Liked by 5 people

    • Scott says:

      1) It’s just assumed. You’re expected to “just get” this (hat tip Rollo). Talk to women about this, and they look at you like you have an arm growing out of your forehead. “Well, um, of COURSE he has to be sexually and physically attracted to him before anything else happens! I mean, don’t you guys just KNOW that?? What’s wrong with you? What, do we have to spell everything out for you?”

      This is really important, probably more so than the “already thinks you are hot” rule itself.

      People who have sufficient “hotness” (even if they are just a hair over the threshold) know this instinctively and have internalized it.

      It’s because of this that they expend precisely zero energy thinking about it or talking about it. It’s why meet cute’s appear so effortless and natural.

      They are!

      Liked by 2 people

      • thedeti says:

        Yes. One of the biggest problems men who wash up on the shores of the manosphere have (including me) is that they never got to the “know this instinctively and have internalized it” part.

        Or they knew what they were seeing but were steered away from it and told “nope, you’re not seeing what you think you’re seeing”.

        Or they knew what they were seeing but deliberately ignored it because they couldn’t or wouldn’t face the truth.

        The way you get to instinct and internalization is

        1) getting some direct instruction from older boys and men either through talk, or through sitting on the sidelines and watching it happen in real time

        2) proper socialization in mixed friend groups

        3) direct trial and error experience with girls and women. “boots on the ground” “conditions on the ground” experience. Getting out there and trying. Rejection and failure most of the time; success sometimes.

        4) Integrating what you learned in 1 through 3 and improving where you can, then repeat 1 through 3 as needed.

        With every man in the ‘sphere, there was at least one failure point somewhere before, during or after 1 through 4 up there. At least one point where the lessons didn’t get learned or something didn’t “take”. And, yes, a lot of men in the ‘sphere are on the spectrum, probably level 1. Lot of men with some ‘sperg tendencies.

        Men on the spectrum tend toward the literal, and don’t receive or understand indirect communication well. They tend to take people at their words. So when they hear “I just want a nice guy who will treat me right”, they interpret that as “I want a boyfriend who is a nice guy and treats me right” and “I am sexually attracted to nice guys who treat me right”. Then once that idea gets into a sperg’s head, it stays there and cannot be shifted or changed. He won’t let go of it. He cannot deal with or integrate new information. He cannot discard concepts that don’t work. And he cannot understand why it won’t work. In his mind, this is what a girl said that girls want, so this has to be correct. It has to work. It just HAS to work, because…. that’s what she said. His first concept of male-female relationships is what he heard from a girl who he asked, and that’s his immutable concept of it for all time.

        Parents and other adults don’t help, because they want “I just want a nice guy who treats me right” to be how the world is. They can’t deal with the dark underbelly of female sexual attraction, because it’s too ugly to talk about. If they do talk about it, they’ll get in trouble with feminists and church leaders because it’s “not nice” to talk about girls that way. So parents and other adults reinforce what the girls said, when what they said clearly doesn’t line up with what they do. But, our sperg is still wedded to “nice guy, treat her right” because… she said it, and why would she lie about this?

        That’s why the failure points happen somewhere at 1 through 4.

        Liked by 4 people

      • Scott says:

        Deti

        The one you can actually recover from is having previous natural ability that was squashed with a huge helping of blue pill conditioning.

        You ran into a brick wall of painful truth (my divorce for example) and get road rash.

        Getting back to it (dating or whatever) was kind of like the proverbial riding a bike. After some wound liking things turned out ok for me.

        But it left a deep permanent gash in the fender.

        I think this is what I offer here. It’s a small niche of guys I can help in my coaching business. But it does help.

        Liked by 1 person

    • anonymous_ng says:

      There is nothing to disagree with here, and the only reason it even has to be spelled out is because women and their apologists have for generations been gaslighting men and telling them that the truth they see with their eyes is not the truth.

      As for Jack’s female respondent, my son tells a story of a friend of his talking to a young woman at a party about highway design, but he was passionate about it, and was obviously attractive enough to her.

      Liked by 5 people

      • thedeti says:

        “…the only reason it even has to be spelled out is because women and their apologists have for generations been gaslighting men and telling them that the truth they see with their eyes is not the truth.”

        I’ve said the same thing for years. This happened to me growing up.

        “Girls want nice boys who treat them right. Girls just loooove nice guys! Girls want to date and marry nice guys!”

        [Goes out and tries being nice, and gets shot down.]

        “Yeah, um, that thing about girls liking nice guys? Well, um, I was nice, and I can’t get a date.”

        “Well, you’re just not being nice enough. You need to be nicer.”

        “If being nicer isn’t working, then you’re just going after the wrong kinds of girls. Because the only girls who aren’t sexually attracted to nice guys are girls who are broken, damaged, slutty, or crazy.”

        “If you’re going after the right kinds of girls and it still isn’t working, then you’re just not doing or saying the right things. You’re doing or saying something to offend or insult them.”

        “If you’re doing and saying the right things and it still isn’t working, then it’s probably because you’re trying to have sex with them. Girls don’t really like sex. Girls will have sex only in a relationship and only with men they know well. Girls won’t have sex with you until they feel an emotional connection to you.”

        “If you’re doing and saying everything right and not trying to have sex with them, well….. it’s probably because you’re not nice enough…..”

        And on and on and on. This was churchian “dating advice” circa 1982-1990. It was just ridiculous, it really was.

        Liked by 4 people

    • Oscar says:

      “Talk to women about this, and they look at you like you have an arm growing out of your forehead. “Well, um, of COURSE he has to be sexually and physically attracted to him before anything else happens! I mean, don’t you guys just KNOW that?? What’s wrong with you? What, do we have to spell everything out for you?”

      Why shouldn’t they look at you that way? Don’t you have a threshold of beauty beneath which you won’t consider a woman despite all her other attributes? It only takes a tiny bit of empathy and observation to see that women also have a threshold of attraction.

      And, that threshold is different for each individual. There are plenty of below-average-attractive people who are happily married. They’re typically married to someone of similar attractiveness, although there are exceptions. The exception is usually a not-so-handsome man married to a much-more-attractive woman, and it’s usually because he has status to make up for what he lacks in looks.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Scott says:

        Oscar has a point here.

        You are being selected on a number of criteria, some of which are obvious (height, looks, etc) but some are more subtle, and not even really in her conscious mind.

        The guy who is naturally able to pick up the signal, make an appropriate move on it, and make it look easy is being screened in because that quality of his is factorially correlated with other desirable traits. When it comes across like that, it makes her feel all tingly, and that’s what matters in that moment. She wants to get swept up in it, without thinking about it. Stopping to explain it is a buzz kill.

        She looks at you funny because something is off, and she can’t quite articulate it. But truthfully, why should she have to?

        Liked by 1 person

      • Scott says:

        Hell, just reminiscing about it makes ME feel all tingly, and I am not even a friggin girl.

        Like

      • thedeti says:

        “Why shouldn’t they look at you that way? Don’t you have a threshold of beauty beneath which you won’t consider a woman despite all her other attributes? It only takes a tiny bit of empathy and observation to see that women also have a threshold of attraction.”

        Come on, Oscar. Red Pill 101. Because men like me were taught, trained, and carefully instructed that women didn’t lie, and they especially didn’t lie about sex and “matters of the heart”.

        Took a while to figure out that everybody lies. Including adults. Including girls and women. Especially girls and women.

        It’s not obvious that girls are selecting in part based on looks, particularly when they lie to you that “looks don’t matter” and “it’s what’s on the inside that counts” and particularly when, to an inexperienced boy, there seems to be little rhyme or reason to how girls are selecting boys. Even as I got older it made little sense while I was in it. Only in hindsight did it all come together.

        Sue me for actually thinking that the adults around me knew more than I did. Sue me for taking adults at their word. Sue me for taking girls and women at their word. Sue me for believing women were being above board and dealing with me fairly and in good faith. The truth is that the adults around me were just as clueless as I was or were outright lying to me. The truth is that pretty much everyone was lying to me. The truth is that girls and women were especially dealing with me treacherously and lying to me and using me. I took people at their word, and suffered for it.

        Liked by 3 people

      • thedeti says:

        “It only takes a tiny bit of empathy and observation to see that women also have a threshold of attraction.”

        Women lie.

        Women lie about this and claim that “looks don’t matter”. If you challenge women on this they, and the adults and everyone around you, finger point and accuse you of calling them liars. You get ostracized, called names, sequestered, bullied, and put down.

        This is starting to break now. But when I was coming up in the 1980s, women and feminists and their sycophants had an absolute stranglehold on how male-female relationships were sold and presented to men. It was all 100% all about what women want and need, and boys and men are there to cater to women, and you dare not question any of it, lest you be ostracized and shunned.

        Like

      • thedeti says:

        “The guy who is naturally able to pick up the signal, make an appropriate move on it, and make it look easy is being screened in because that quality of his is factorially correlated with other desirable traits. When it comes across like that, it makes her feel all tingly, and that’s what matters in that moment. She wants to get swept up in it, without thinking about it. Stopping to explain it is a buzz kill.”

        This all has to start with good, clear instruction from older boys and men. Something that most men in the sphere would have benefited from while they are growing up is

        “Don’t listen to what people say. Watch what they do.”

        “People lie. Everybody lies. Women especially lie about sex, dating, and attraction, because they don’t want you to ‘crack the code’.”

        “Women want and need social advantages over men because men have physical advantages over women. So, women lie, cheat, manipulate, act mendaciously and duplicitously, and rely on how they feel rather than what they think.”

        Sure, I heard “actions speak louder than words”. But I never, ever heard that in conjunction with women or my dealings with them. No, when it came to girls and women it was always, “Well, you just weren’t nice enough”, and “You’re just not looking for the right girls”, and “They’re just stupid or slutty or crazy”, or “You’re not saying or doing the right things.” I never, ever got any good instruction on girls and women until I was over 40 years old. It starts with some instruction from older boys and men. Women should not have to explain it; because older boys and men already have and he’s learned it from boys and men who actually know what they’re talking about.

        “She looks at you funny because something is off, and she can’t quite articulate it. But truthfully, why should she have to?”

        That’s fine. Then we can just assume that most of the time, women are dealing with men treacherously and in bad faith. We can assume that women are lying, cheating, and manipulating us most of the time.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        The major issue seems to be that women, in general, have a higher visceral attraction threshold/floor than men individual differences notwithstanding. The average woman is less attracted to the average man than he is to her. But she still wants a boyfriend/man/husband.

        Liked by 1 person

      • thedeti says:

        “There are plenty of below-average-attractive people who are happily married. They’re typically married to someone of similar attractiveness, although there are exceptions.”

        No. Those below average attractiveness people are married, sure; but I wouldn’t say “happily” married. I would say they stay married to each other because the alternative is financial and social ruin; because no one else would ever have them or can deal with them; and because they don’t know anything else. They wanted better but couldn’t do better. At best, they’re “content”. They took what they could get, and they made the best of it, and it’s good enough. That’s not “happy”. That’s “content”, and that’s the best most marriages are.

        Most marriages are not “happy”. I’d guess around 10% of marriages are “happy”, where everyone’s getting almost all of what they want. I’d guess around 20% of marriages are “content”. Around 40% of marriages are “doing OK”, where there’s a major need not getting met but the deprived person is tolerating it. About 20% of marriages are “doing poorly” where they’re one crisis away from someone filing for divorce. And the bottom 10% of marriages are bad marriages where the wife openly disrespects the husband, the husband clearly hates his wife, one or both of them are cheating, and someone’s just itching to see a divorce lawyer.

        I think what you’re seeing are “doing OK” marriages and presuming they’re “happy”.

        “The exception is usually a not-so-handsome man married to a much-more-attractive woman, and it’s usually because he has status to make up for what he lacks in looks.”

        And as looks become more and more important, she will treat him worse and worse as she over time deems herself entitled to his status and the money it brings. She’s not sexually attracted to him. She is using him, his status, and his money, for her own ends and benefit. The moment she can untether herself from him, she will, and she will take with her his children, half his material possessions, and an income stream for as long as she can get a court to order it.

        Most women are married to men they’re, at best, kind of sort of sexually attracted to. Most women are married to men they are not anywhere close to as sexually attracted to as the men they had sex with before they got married. Most women are married to men who were not anywhere close to their first choice.

        Most women would rather have been married to someone else. But they married their husbands because those are the men who would marry them. Most men just don’t do it for their wives. Marriages like Scott/Mychael, Liz/Mike, and Elspeth/SAM are the exception, not the rule. Not anywhere close to the rule.

        Liked by 1 person

      • thedeti says:

        “The major issue seems to be that women, in general, have a higher visceral attraction threshold/floor than men individual differences notwithstanding.”

        No. The major issue is that men don’t know that women have a higher visceral attraction floor than men. The major issue is that men don’t get instruction and training about this. The major issue is that women use this knowledge deficit to their advantage, lie about it, and use it to manipulate and deceive and defraud men. It’s fine that women aren’t attracted to most men. It’s NOT fine that those facts are deliberately kept from men and that men are lied to about this.

        “The average woman is less attracted to the average man than he is to her.”

        Agreed. And that’s fine.

        “But she still wants a boyfriend/man/husband.”

        Also fine. But men have a right to expect that women will deal with them honestly and in good faith when seeking those things. Men also have a right to call women out for their dishonesty and treachery and bad faith.

        Like

      • thedeti says:

        I even asked some women why they liked me before; or even why things progressed so rapidly to physical contact.

        Almost all of them said pretty much the exact same thing.

        “You just seem like you’re a really nice guy.” “You were really nice to me.”

        When you don’t get told that you need to add “who is also physically and sexually appealing to me”, and all you get told is that you are “really nice” and THAT is how you got the girl, and you hear that EVERY time you ask the question, you start believing that being nice is sexually attractive.

        It’s that last part, “who is also physically and sexually attractive to me”, that men need to be carefully taught and shown.

        Liked by 2 people

      • cameron232 says:

        Deti, Novaseeker explained this. Women’s attraction can temporarily increase in response to an opportunity (to get a man). It just doesn’t sustain when the guy is of mediocre attractiveness. This even happens with lesbians – the source of the lesbian death bed. Remember, women love opportunistically.

        Like

      • thedeti says:

        “Women’s attraction can temporarily increase in response to an opportunity (to get a man). It just doesn’t sustain when the guy is of mediocre attractiveness. This even happens with lesbians – the source of the lesbian death bed. Remember, women love opportunistically.”

        Well, what’s really going on there is that they’re lying about it. It’s less about temporary increase as it is about them just lying and being disingenuous and dishonest. It’s also about them prioritizing different things as their needs change. When a woman needs commitment, she puts less emphasis on looks. It’s not that she is “temporarily increasing her attraction”. It’s that she’s downplaying something she really wants so as to get something she really needs at the moment.

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        And I’ll just keep paraphrasing Novaseeker since IMO he’s the best redpill writer. Women’s attraction equation is hard to solve for them. They want a bunch of different things.

        Men are simple. We are physically attracted and don’t want that to come with a woman who is too difficult.

        Women want more – their list of wants is longer. They want men who are viscerally attractive (and they have a higher standard for what is “hawt.”). They want men with money and status. They want high status men who are loyal to them to the exclusion of other women. They want men who have a masculine, confident personality. AND, they want men who can emotionally connect with them like their female BFF can.

        They have a longer list and it’s harder for them to find what they want in one man who will commit to them.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        Actually Deti, I’m not so sure. I’m not a woman but they’re so driven by emotion and instinct that I can see where it’s not even conscious deception. They really do get some, albeit limited tingles in response to the “opportunity.”

        Is this letting them off the hook? IDK – I just think men need to be aware, to assess their situation and decide if it’s worth the risk. For most American women, the answer is definitely “no” IMO.

        Like

      • Oscar says:

        @ deti

        I get it. I fell for some of the lies, too. And, you’re right, we should hold liars accountable for their lies, regardless of the consequences. I do it here all the time, even when others won’t.

        But, we also have to hold ourselves accountable for believing the lies, instead of the evidence staring us in the face.

        Again; whose posters did girls in high school post on their lockers? Which guys got the prettiest girlfriends, and the most girlfriends? Which guys did the girls say were “hot”?

        Again; there are exceptions. The popular, funny fat guy. The fat, ugly, popular football lineman. They had pretty girlfriends. But the prettiest girls went with the tall, handsome captain of the basketball team (basketball was the most popular sport in my school).

        What does that tell you? Looks matter to women, but popularity (status) matters more. If you happen to have both, you’re golden. If you have neither (I didn’t), you’re screwed. It’s LAMPS all over again. Better get to work.

        As for “happy marriages”; I know a bunch, but if you’d rather go with “content”, I’m good with that.

        And I’m not going to sue you. I can’t afford you blood-sucking lawyers.

        Liked by 1 person

      • thedeti says:

        “Women want more – their list of wants is longer. They want men who are viscerally attractive (and they have a higher standard for what is “hawt.”). They want men with money and status. They want high status men who are loyal to them to the exclusion of other women. They want men who have a masculine, confident personality. AND, they want men who can emotionally connect with them like their female BFF can.”

        Yes. But women are sexually attracted only to the men who are viscerally attractive. Women will accept men who are less viscerally sexually attractive for relationships. That’s the “prioritizing” I was talking about. Women do this all the time; and that’s most marriages today. But then, women will lie to, use, exploit, mistreat, and take advantage of, those men. Some of it is conscious, but most of it is not. Most of it is conditioning. Most women are conditioned today that they are entitled to whatever they want, when they want it, how and where they want it. So if her man, the man she accepted who she considers “less than” and who she’s not sexually attracted to, starts complaining that he’s not getting what HE wants, she starts firing back at him and telling him he gets whatever she decides to give him, and the entire world will back her up on that 100%.

        Yes, women want more. They’ll accept less sexual attraction from a man offering commitment, but will treat him worse.

        Liked by 2 people

      • thedeti says:

        “But, we also have to hold ourselves accountable for believing the lies, instead of the evidence staring us in the face.”

        Also RP 101. But I still hold others accountable for their lies.

        Two things I have to say about that.

        1) It’s pretty hard to not believe the lies instead of the evidence, when you have literally everyone around you gaslighting you with stuff like…

        “You’re not seeing what you think you’re seeing…”
        “I would never lie to you because I love you and I am your parent/grandparent/family member and I want the best for you.”
        “Everyone else is lying to you, but I am not.”
        “I liked you/had sex with you/dated you because I thought you were a really nice guy.”
        “I got with you because you were really nice to me.”

        2) It also means we correct it by giving that clear instruction to boys and men, and calling others out on their lies. It also means we say “never again”, and we learn from it.

        “Looks matter to women, but status (popularity) matters more.”

        That may have been true 35 years ago when I was coming up, but it’s not true now. Looks is king now. Looks matter more now. Looks, money, status – all on a sliding scale. 35 years ago, money and status mattered more. Now, looks matter more. That’s a function of OLD’s prevalence and the current cultural zeitgeist.

        Liked by 2 people

      • thedeti says:

        The only other thing I can tell you is: Lesson learned. Now, I just presume everyone is lying to me. I just presume people, but especially women, are lying to me, until proven otherwise. I just presume bad faith until sufficient good faith is shown.

        Liked by 2 people

      • cameron232 says:

        Deti, women want a long list of things but I agree, visceral attraction matters. Where this typically manifests in a marriage is the woman may love him in some ways but doesn’t really much want to be physically affectionate including sex. And without that visceral attractiveness the woman is much less tolerant of his other deficiencies, e.g. isn’t as good of an emotional tampon as her female BFF.

        Like

      • Oscar says:

        @ deti

        I’ll tell you a couple of the lies I bought.

        First, the lie that if a woman is sexually immoral, it’s because she was deceived by a man (or men). Second, the lie that if a husband leads his wife, she’ll naturally want to follow.

        The first is a corollary to “girls are made of sugar and spice and everything nice”. I believed it because, although I can see behavior, I can’t see intentions. I shouldn’t have believed it because the Bible says otherwise.

        The second, I believed because I wasn’t married yet, and because the only family I knew in which the husband actually wore the pants, the wife actually did follow. Every other married couple I knew was the typical obsequious husband/wife in charge dynamic. Again, I shouldn’t have believed it, because the Bible says otherwise.

        As for looks being king, I agree that’s the case with dating apps, because they’re visual media. In real life interactions, I’d say status still beats looks. Maybe by a narrower margin than before, or maybe women’s threshold for status is higher now, but it looks to me like status is still more important to them.

        Like

      • “The first is a corollary to “girls are made of sugar and spice and everything nice”. I believed it because, although I can see behavior, I can’t see intentions. I shouldn’t have believed it because the Bible says otherwise.”

        Yes, that is so hard-wired — all the way to early childhood — that it is hard to overcome. Yet here we have half of the women thinking it is a moral good to kill their children in cold blood. How much more evidence do we need of their potential depravity?

        Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        “Yes, that is so hard-wired — all the way to early childhood — that it is hard to overcome. Yet here we have half of the women thinking it is a moral good to kill their children in cold blood. How much more evidence do we need of their potential depravity?”

        This brings up an important discussion/argument tactic any time women’s depravity is brought up. It’s done so frequently, that I’ll call it 100% of the time some version of the deflection statement “yeah, but men ….” will be tossed out.

        The truthful reframe to this is that men are well aware of their own depravity and are reminded of it with great frequency, but women are not and so that is where we need to focus. We’re constantly told about it through societal messaging (evil patriarchy, in school little boys natural energy is bad and the girls’ relative docility is good) and in church. What we have an almost complete dearth of women being forced to face their own depravity. Even in church the singling out of women’s specific sin tendencies is so rare that when it happens it’s surprising.

        Liked by 3 people

      • cameron232 says:

        RPA that’s Christian Manosphere 101. That’s Dalrock in a nutshell. That’s one of the first things and major themes I took away from his website. It’s not that men=good, women=bad. It’s that both are sinful but women are treated as morally superior by society and ESPECIALLY by evangelical Christianity which is worse about this than secular society.

        Liked by 2 people

  5. When I got my braces off in the 9th grade, a girl from church said, “That’s great, now if you just gained some weight, you’d be really cute.” It stung, but she was right. I guess I benefited from her candor, as I never bought the lie that women don’t prioritize appearances. My wife always pointed to my ambition/mission (cha-ching, right?) and sense of humor as attributes she liked, but she also acknowledged that my being super-fit was a starting point. I never got really big, but being strong for my size and ripped sure helped. Not only do women notice, but being fit increases your confidence. The confidence helped me to plate spin, have an abundance mentality, be cocky/funny, etc. Oh, and you’re healthier and more energetic, so the benefits compound.

    BTW, in the early 80s I obviously had no idea what those RP terms meant. I just started doing them reflexively. I was a pathetic blue pill guy in my freshman year, but mercifully my feminist freshman girlfriend broke up with me at the end of the year, and the scales (mostly) came off my eyes. I got more RP over the summer and was in a great frame of mind when I met my wife at the beginning of the school year. I drifted between RP and BP behaviors over the years, and now with the analysis and terminology, things make so much more sense.

    So yes, the post is right on. The foundation is that simple.

    Liked by 3 people

    • Oscar says:

      “That’s great, now if you just gained some weight, you’d be really cute.” It stung, but she was right.”

      That’s exactly what I was thinking about in a previous post. Accepting reality hurts sometimes, but it leads to greater happiness in the long run.

      “I guess I benefited from her candor, as I never bought the lie that women don’t prioritize appearances.”

      I always thought that was obvious. I mean, which actors do women like most? Obviously, the handsome ones, like Robert Redford, Brad Pitt, Chris Hemsworth, etc.

      The not-so-handsome actors do fine with women, because of their status, but you’ll never see a poster of Danny Davito on a teenage girl’s wall.

      Wait… does anyone hang posters on their wall anymore?

      Liked by 1 person

  6. Devon70 says:

    The widespread use of dating apps has made it difficult for women to deny the importance of appearance.
    When I was growing up the line was women want a good sense of humor though I noticed women would swoon over Brad Pitt instead of Woody Allen.

    Liked by 4 people

    • thedeti says:

      That was another thing.

      “I think a good sense of humor is sexy (in a man who’s physically attractive to me)!” with the parenthetical always left unstated.

      But there was a lot of dishonesty and virtue signaling about this from women when I was growing up. Woody Allen, Phil Donahue, and Alan Alda were touted as “sex symbols” because they were “funny” (Allen, Alda) or “sensitive” (Donahue). In the 1990s, the proto-“sexy sensitive guy” was personified in an actor named John Corbett. “He’s so sensitive and nice! That’s sexy!” Never mind that Corbett was a conventionally good looking man. No, women said his appeal was that he was perceived as “sensitive and nice”, and thus, “sexy”.

      And you were not to question any of this. To question women about this was to out yourself as shallow, mean-spirited, rude, and sexist. You were calling them liars, and that was something you were just Not. Supposed. To. Do. Ever.

      “Women are not shallow or superficial like men are.”
      “Women aren’t visual.”
      “It’s what’s on the inside that counts.”
      “Women don’t lie, and women especially don’t lie about sex.”

      Sure.

      Yeah. Sure. Right. That’s why women liked Tom Selleck as “Magnum PI” — because he was “sensitive” and “funny”? Uh huh.

      Liked by 3 people

      • Lastmod says:

        A few years back, Tommy Sotomayor said:

        “Ladies….. You say you are a Queen. Why then do you?????????

        — Talk like a sailor (foul mouth)
        — Dress like a pirate (thrift store, cheap, trashy, skanky, ho-housey)
        — Wear the crown of commoners (a weave, referring to black ladies, but could be applied to any woman who claims the crown but behaves in a terrible manner or is fake)
        — Date and make babies with “the court jester”

        He then went on about the implications.

        “A Queen would NEVER…. NEVER have a child OUT of wedlock. A Queen would never go with the court jester. A Queen knows her manners, status, expectations, and minds her language.”

        He then asked,

        “So maybe these ladies mean they are from Queens (as in NYC) ????? …which would explain a lot of things.”

        He then poked at the men.

        “Men today are so desperate, they’ll f_ck anything that gives them an ounce of attention. It’s not a black thing or white thing. Instead of actually making sure she is a Queen, they just take her word for it. Most men today get so little attention, hence WHY they become the court jester…… It seems to be the only way to get a woman to notice you if you don’t look like Denzel.”

        Liked by 6 people

      • Scott says:

        The Thomas Magnum character was a bit of a template for me. The story behind that character was that the producers of the show wanted Selleck to play him as a much more type-A, former navy seal, hard @ss type, but he wanted to play the character with flaws, insecurities, and self-doubt (hence the narration where he worked through a lot of that self doubt with humorous internal dialogue).

        He was bad with money. He weaseled out of commitments. He constantly owed his friends money and favors. But he was loyal to them and would do anything for them. And he spent a lot of time in his own head questioning himself.

        I am like that. Maybe because I watched the show religiously for most of the 80s, I don’t know. But I have always been able to relate to that level of vulnerability and I often wonder about or second guess myself about a lot same stuff Magnum did. I also sprinkle a big helping of self-deprecating humor on it, or else I risk going crazy.

        But make no mistake. He is 6’4″ and handsome. That’s why he could get away with it.

        Liked by 2 people

      • thedeti says:

        Scott,

        All true about Thomas Magnum, the character. But let’s be honest — the show had a huge female following, in large part because Tom Selleck is a 6’4″ conventionally handsome man who also openly objectified women and wouldn’t commit to them.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Scott says:

        Absolutely.

        If I went back to right after my divorce, 33 years old, recently released from active duty, starting graduate school, with red-pill knowledge? I probably would not have made the same choices I did.

        This is not to say I don’t love my wife, my marriage, my kids. But I might have prolonged all of that for another decade or so.

        What would be the downside? I am 6’1″ and blah blah.

        Liked by 2 people

      • thedeti says:

        Oh yeah.

        Take me back to 1994 with red pill knowledge? I wouldn’t have even started dating Mrs. deti. If I did date her, I would have ended the relationship 6 months in. I would not have put up with 1/10th of the sh!t Mrs. deti flung at me. And we would never have married.

        Like

      • Lastmod says:

        I remember when Magnum first came on. It had a cool intro theme. My parents didn’t want me watching it because it evidently had too much violence….. and it had plenty of flashbacks to Vietnam and that kind of thing. Remember, the war had not been over ten years when it first aired. So in the end, they agreed they would watch it with me… and they ended up liking it as well.

        Always liked “the lads”, those two dogs that belonged to Higgins.

        The reboot was terrible.

        Tom Selleck didnt do much after Magnum…. Three Men and a Baby, Little Lady, teen movies. He got popular again as Monica’s “much older boyfriend” on “Friends” for that one season in 1996.

        He needs to be removed from the NRA. He has done nothing in California to protect gun rights since he got on the board.

        Like

      • Oscar says:

        You’ve never seen the funny fat guy who gets lots of attention from girls? I have. Would it help him to get in shape? Sure. But, he’s figured out how to convert humor (charisma) into popularity (status), and female attention.

        Like

      • Lastmod says:

        “Don’t want to be a fat man, people would think I was just good fun…… Yeah!”

        ~ “Fat Man”, Jethro Tull (1969)

        Like

      • Oscar says:

        I’ve never liked Jethro Tull, probably because I’ve never been high.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Jack says:

        “I’ve never liked Jethro Tull, probably because I’ve never been high.”

        Me neither. Judging by the people I’ve met who like those early 70s hard rock groups like Deep Purple, Iron Butterfly, and Jethro Tull, I’m quite convinced that this music only sounds good on a drug trip. It’s not called “acid rock” for nothing.

        Like

      • dpmonahan says:

        In Kindergarten, 1984, all the kids were singing Wheels on the Bus. I didn’t know it, so I tried to teach them Jethro Tull’s Bungle in the Jungle and I broke out in tears when they started teasing me. I had had two pot-head older brothers.

        Like

      • Lastmod says:

        Jethro Tull. “Teacher” (1970) come on….this rocks. Gotta love that flute. A rock band led with a flautist! Stoner band? Yeah…..okay…..they had that rep. Ian Anderson back then on stage always looked like he was infested with fleas. I hear more a very “olde english folk” in this than acid rock. Anyway……I liked them. Not my “go to” but them being English gives them a pass and a rung or two up on the ladder because of being English 😉

        Liked by 2 people

      • Oscar says:

        No thanks.

        Like

      • Scott says:

        Oscar-

        I have not really found anything I love about that era/genre at all. And not just Jethro Tull. I don’t like the Stones, the Who, Led zeppelin. They all have one or two cool songs, but most of it is lost on me.

        I don’t like “classic rock” either. Or like Bryan Adams/.38 special/REO Speedwagon/Journey and so forth.

        Just does nothing for me.

        I had to guest drum on the song “Who Will You Run To” (Heart) for a talent show because some friends of mine had their drummer get sick a day before the big three-school talent show.

        I did it but it was hard to keep a straight face. So cheesy.

        I am a purist. For me, the entire music canon that matters starts in the late 70s with the second British invasion (“new wave”) and early punkish stuff like the Pretenders, Blondie, Generation X, the Sex Pistols, Dead Kennedy’s, Iggy Pop. It ends in 1991 when “grunge” ruined everything. Enter what I call “marketed anger” like Silver Chair, Everclear, etc. Lame. My entire itunes catalog starts in 77 and ends at that point.

        Like

      • Lastmod says:

        I was raised on early 1960’s British pop / rock. Mom being British and a teen from that era. On my birthday in 1976, I got that Beatles “hits” double album “1962-1966” and that was about it for me. Still a die-hard fan to this day. In fact, arriving in England, the first thing I did was make a bee-line to Abbey Road.

        Sure, I liked some stuff from the 1980’s that was current when I was in high school. Some of what I hated back then HAS aged better than expected. For the most part, I was not a fan of music from the 1980’s in general.

        I think it was Jr. High, 7th grade. I heard a track by the early Who (The High Numbers) and that was when I discovered Mod. Maximum R&B. With heavy side servings of soul… Motown, Stax, Volt, Chess……. labels / catalogo. The music of postwar black America. Became a Mod and pretty much stayed one. I am the last one in the USA.

        I like all kinds of stuff. My record collection reflects that. Like Scott, I never was into “grunge”, although in college, you did have to have a “grunge band”, and to me, Soundgarden probably was the best one from that era….

        Pink Floyd is in a class of their own….. birthed out of very early psychedelia, to the massive contemplations of man vs. the state, and the lack of time, money, and sanity…… They were not the best at what they did. They were the only ones who did what they did.

        The best dance music ever was 1960’s early 1970’s soul music. If there was ever a sound to represent the 20th century on a dancefloor. Right there. Positive lyrics. Sharply dressed, pressed…. talent… and such optimism in 2:30 songs. Amazing!

        Like

    • cameron232 says:

      A standard female reply is “We choose men for other things besides appearance.” This is technically true, just irrelevant to what’s being discussed in the manosphere. They do choose men for other qualities; they’re just not very attracted to them. Novaseeker said this:

      “Most women have some attraction to the men they pick, just not a whole lot.”

      The average guy is a lot more attracted to the average woman than she is to him.

      Liked by 4 people

    • thedeti says:

      “The widespread use of dating apps has made it difficult for women to deny the importance of appearance.”

      Yes, but there are other things working in conjunction with that too — the fact that more and more women are working outside the home and are finding ways to support themselves without having to marry one man and be faithful to him.

      Most often, what women do is marry a man, have a couple of kids who might or might not be his, then divorce him while using the children as an income source from the man for a number of years. She can still take that man’s money, but she no longer has to have sex with him. She uses his money and then heads back out to the carousel.

      When women don’t have to worry about money, they put far more emphasis on men’s physical appearance when selecting sex partners. When they DO have to worry about money and having the kids they want (which requires lots of money), they downplay men’s physical appearance.

      Liked by 3 people

  7. D’oh! Put that comment on the wrong post.

    Liked by 1 person

  8. Scott says:

    It is so important to understand the visceral part about what women like it cannot possibly be overstated. It overrides pretty much everything with them when they are young — and this is all that matters when trying to find a wife, or a girlfriend or a one night stand, or whatrever. When a 49 year old woman writes an email to Jack, she is writing from a perspective that doesn’t matter anymore, to be honest.

    When I was in middle school, the guy that was the absolute top of the alpha food chain was a boy named Chris. We had a field trip to a roller rink one time. I remember at one point, he was skating around the rink, and several of the cutest girls were leaning up against the outside of the wall waiting for him. Each time he skated by they would chant, “What a babe! What a babe! What a babe!”

    I never forgot that moment. He was in 8th grade, I was in 6th. It seemed so hopelessly random to me. Why him? The years between 11 and 13 are like dog years, and I eventually figured it out.

    Lucky for me, I had a few of my own similar moments in the 8th and beyond, and eventually those questions faded into my subconscious, never to be revisited. I never had a bunch of groupies like that, but I did OK. Neither Chris nor I read any websites or books about how women work. I promise.

    49 year old email lady was like that once. They all were.

    Liked by 2 people

    • thedeti says:

      “It is so important to understand the visceral part about what women like — it cannot possibly be overstated. It overrides pretty much everything with them when they are young — and this is all that matters when trying to find a wife, or a girlfriend or a one night stand, or whatever. When a 49 year old woman writes an email to Jack, she is writing from a perspective that doesn’t matter anymore, to be honest.”

      That last part is important. Jack’s 49 year old correspondent wouldn’t have been able to say any of this at 19, or even at 29. She wouldn’t even have been able to articulate it. If she could have articulated it, she would not have.

      To women, it’s just ridiculous that this stuff even needs to be discussed. This is why women hate the red pill so much — because they don’t want their behaviors dissected and reverse engineered, and they don’t want nonnaturals having access to information that naturals “just get” and “just figure out” every day. They don’t want bottom 80% men having that kind of knowledge about them.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Lastmod says:

      Roller skating…… We had “Hi Rollers” in Plattsburgh, NY. Every few months, usually on a Friday evening, I would go. My dad would drop me off around 5 PM and yell out the window before he sped off in the family K-car, “Be outside by 9 PM!”

      This was early to mid 1980’s. Junior high and into high school (ages 12-15). I would bomb that rink to Duran Duran, The Thompson Twins, Kenny Logins, Huey Lewis, Wham, Culture Club, Howard Jones, Starship……

      There would be people from different school districts from all over the northern Adirondack region. The 9 PM skate was for high schoolers and adults. The Friday night hop (as it was called) was for middle schoolers / junior high age for the most part, depending on when your birthday fell. It was a big rink because the next closest one was up in Canada, or a two hour drive down to Albany.

      I could skate backwards well, and when they did the “fast skate”, me and a few regional punks would be out there “checking people”, and of course, we would get put in penalty.

      I always bumped into people from my school there. I remember a scandal of sorts…. must have been 1985. A girl from a different school evidently got pregnant, and evidently, it happened in a bathroom stall. She was in the 8th grade, and her father was a high school staffer who worked there. So much for keeping kids safe. I do recall at the time, Brett (who was a cool kid in my school) said, “She knew EXACTLY what she was doing.”

      Do people skill roller skate? Is it still a thing?

      Liked by 2 people

      • anonymous_ng says:

        @Lastmod “Do people skill roller skate? Is it still a thing?”

        My sister and brother-in-law took the grandkids skating on Saturday. For myself, I prefer ice skating, but they don’t have a disco ball and music.

        Like

      • Joe2 says:

        Yes, the world’s largest indoor skating rink (which is in Albany) is still going strong after 71 years.

        Guptill’s Arena

        Like

      • Lastmod says:

        Guptills! Went there once in the mid 1980’s when visiting relatives in Glenville / Scotia. Back then they still had the big organ and someone would play every session for about a half hour like they did in the 1940’s and 1950’s while people skated. It was fun. It also had a huge arcade. A big eating / cafeteria area and a large room with a gigantic projection TV at the time that played MTV (back then most people still didn’t have cable TV). Plenty of places to sit as well.

        Evidently some of the trees to make that wood floor were cut right and milled right there!

        Like

    • Jack says:

      “When a 49 year old woman writes an email to Jack, she is writing from a perspective that doesn’t matter anymore, to be honest.”

      That’s pretty blunt, but more or less what I meant by saying she does not have the ulterior motives that most younger women do. This is what makes her advice more trustworthy.

      I don’t know where you got the idea that she is 49. She said it had been 48 years since she hit puberty, so she’s got to be over 60.

      Like

    • Oscar says:

      We had a field trip to a roller rink one time.

      I used to go to a regular skate night with the youth group I attended in high school. A bunch of other youth groups used to go also.

      They always did a “couple’s skate”. The kids that were already couples would skate together, of course. The girls that didn’t have boyfriends would line up on one side of the rink. The boys were supposed to ask them to skate, but most of the boys didn’t have the guts.

      A friend of mine and I started asking all the girls to skate. All of them. We’d each ask one at a time, skate a lap or two with her, then ask another one. The girls lived in other towns, so it never led to anything, but that’s when I started to learn that fortune favors the bold.

      Even when you’re a scrawny nerd with coke bottle glasses.

      Like

  9. thedeti says:

    Women do not like it when men talk about this stuff.

    Women want men to be red pilled. But they want men to figure it out without being told. Or, they want men to have this figured out by the time they encounter the men they date, have sex with, and marry.

    Women do not want to have to be the ones to explain this to men. They don’t want to have to explain it, because…

    — It means he doesn’t “just get it”, which in turn means he can’t think for himself and he’s letting her lead.
    — They don’t want “unattractive” men to be red pilled. If you had to learn this online, it’s not internalized, you didn’t “just get it”, you’re probably a fake, and you can’t sustain what you’ve “learned”. Women don’t want non-naturals to know these things about them.
    — She would be giving up all her secrets which abdicates a lot of her power.
    — His deep knowledge of her, which she revealed, leaves her vulnerable to him judging and ultimately rejecting her.
    — It lays bare women’s depraved sexual natures.

    This is why women love men who act red pilled; but hate men who talk about being red pilled. This is why women want men to be red pilled, but they don’t want men to talk about being red pilled. Women don’t want men who didn’t “just get” this on their own.

    Liked by 3 people

    • Scott says:

      It reminds me of the scene in the movie “They Live”

      “I’ve got one who can see.”

      Such disdain in her voice.

      Like

    • anonymous_ng says:

      One of the OG pickup instructors called it the secret society, and you are supposed to figure it out organically. If you learn about the secret society from usernet/irc/online forums/etc., then, a man who isn’t worthy might be able to get past the filters, and that is horrific.

      Liked by 1 person

      • thedeti says:

        Yes.

        In every high school and college in the land, there are a number of mixed friend groups. What you’ll find in every one of those mixed friend groups is the following:

        The group is composed of an equal number of men and women. For ease of reference, let’s say six men and six women.

        All the women in the group have had sex with the two most attractive men in the group.

        All the women, and the two men, know about the sex.

        The four unattractive men are fully accepted in the group, but don’t know anything about the sex.

        The women and the attractive men work very, very hard to keep the 4 men from knowing about the sex. They like those men and want them as friends. But those 4 men don’t get to know anything about the sex. They don’t get to know about the sex because they’re not part of the secret society. They didn’t “just get it”, so they don’t get to know about the secret society.

        The first rule of the secret society is you do not talk about the secret society. Absolute omerta, absolute secrecy. You don’t talk about it, its existence, or who is in it.

        The second rule is that 90% of women can be members, but only about 40% of men can be members.

        The third rule of the secret society is you do not judge anyone in the secret society. Judgment and judgmentalism are not permitted, ever.

        The fourth rule is that if you break any rules, you get kicked out immediately.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Scott says:

        Deti-

        Somewhat related to this secret club idea is something I noticed a lot of in the army.

        On deployments and TDY, TDY stands for “temporary duty” and the closest analogy for civilians is “business trip”. In fact, the joke is that TDY unofficially stands for “Temporarily Divorced for a Year.”

        Within the first few days of arriving on a deployment, mobilization or a TDY location, people start pairing off into FvcK buddies, and they will usually stay with this person for the duration. If you aren’t paying attention to the cues (they are much more subtle than the usual, out in the open IOIs for single people), you could miss it.

        If a woman gives you a green light for this, you have about a 1/2 second to respond and reciprocate. There will be a social event, like a party or a trip to a bar/restaurant very early in the weeks to year-long event, or something like that. She will put herself into a situation where she can flirt without being noticed by everyone else. It’s very risky for the married people.

        If you give off a signal that you are happy in your marriage and you do not plan to violate that trust, you will be sequestered and uninvited to most social stuff after that. You know it is going on, they just never invite you. In fact, you get the distinct impression that they don’t trust you, because you aren’t down with the game.

        I would get the weak signal, ignore it, and then spend those deployments and TDYs by myself or with the other nerds who actually liked their marriages.

        Liked by 2 people

    • redpillboomer says:

      “This is why women love men who act red pilled; but hate men who talk about being red pilled. This is why women want men to be red pilled, but they don’t want men to talk about being red pilled. Women don’t want men who didn’t “just get” this on their own.”

      This has been my experience since being red pilled. Even though I’m an older, married guy, not in the SMP anymore, it’s funny how true this is, even for me. As one fifty something single male friend, still in the SMP, told me when I mentioned the several women recently who seemed attracted to the red pill version of me, he said, “It’s like you’re playing no stakes poker. You get to enjoy it (their attraction/attention) without having to try to get with them”, like he is trying to do via the dating apps, and here and there in person with them. Yep, he’s right.

      I’ve acted red pilled the last few years, don’t talk about it (except with other men on-line or a select few in regular life), and I pretty much just go about my business working on myself. What I’ve observed is that women WANT us red pilled, and they WANT us to know that we’re red pilled, and then WANT us to interact with them from that framework. It turns them on. Even an older guy like me can get to them. I’ve noticed in my case, in particular with thirty somethings, and an occasional twenty something thrown into the mix, that my age does not seem to matter when it comes to flirting with them, and them giving IOIs back to me.

      Now, would that move toward a real-life situation if the opportunity availed itself (like if I wanted to have an affair or something)? Maybe, or maybe not. The point is that I can tell they are into red pill me and they like, Like, LIKE that red pill stuff; otherwise known as masculinity or masculine energy. It automatically creates polarity with them, male-female polarity.

      Why do I think this is so with an older dude like me? Well, I’m good looking and have a good build, even for my age. There’s that APPEARANCE hurdle you have to get over first (yes, it exists, as so many have pointed out here in their posts), but after that, the attraction is all RED PILL, aka how you talk, how you act, and how you BE with them. The women ‘can’t help’ themselves but be attracted to attractive RED PILL men because they are biologically and emotionally WIRED for it. Does that mean every woman you encounter will be attracted to the Red Pill version of you? Of course not. But generally speaking, they will…. AND a good percentage of them will be attracted to red pill YOU.

      Liked by 2 people

  10. feeriker says:

    Re: Scott says: 2022-04-19 at 4:21 am

    Yes, this exactly how it happens – regardless of what branch of the Service you’re in (in the Navy/Marine Corps we call it TAD, which is “Temporary Additional Duty”).

    I, too, was happily married during my time on active duty (or so I thought) and ignored all of cues I got from the (usually extremely promiscuous) females, and was subsequently “shut out” of a lot of social events (fine by me). I can’t even imagine what it’s like in the Navy today, with women not only being present in greater numbers in remote shore stations, but on ships as well. That’s just flat-out disaster waiting to happen, on so many levels. I can’t imagine being on active duty today.

    Liked by 1 person

  11. feeriker says:

    Lastmod,
    I swear to you she respects you more for standing up to her, especially if she is hot and used to other men doing exactly what she asks them to do.”

    There are few greater pleasures left for a man in this world than humbling a spoiled, entitled beeyotch who is used to having men grovel at her feet and kiss her @$$ 24/7. Ignoring her, or showing her that her “hawtness” means fork-all to you will bring her to the edge of an apoplexy attack, and it is a delicious thing to behold. Alas, such tactics will probably soon be criminalized in Vagina World (a.k.a. the entire West).

    Liked by 2 people

  12. Rock Kitaro says:

    Kinda off topic, but thought I’d share after others mentioned how men are just “supposed to know” they’re attractive, and another commenter mentioned the brutal honesty he received when he was still coming up.

    Went home to GA to visit my mom over the weekend. I’m not a Jehovah’s Witness, but I studied with them from the ages of 11-17, attending the same “Kingdom Hall” (JW church). On Friday night, we celebrated the Memorial and for a lot of JWs, it was their first time seeing me in over 18 years. Meaning, the last time they saw me, I was a fat teenager (when I was about 280 lbs., I’m 6’3, 230 lbs. now).

    A lot of older women, mostly over 50, all complimented me for being handsome and good-looking. And oddly enough, their compliments were usually followed up with, “Yeah, I remember you. I had to do a double take, because you used to be on the chubby side/Yeah, you lost a lot of weight, because you were fat back then.”

    The next day, my mom said, “Rock. I hope you weren’t offended by those ‘Sisters’ talking about how you used to be fat.”

    I smirked and said, “No. I’m not offended at all. They’re not wrong. I really was fat. I just wish they were as open and honest with other women as they were with me.”

    My mom laughed because she knows it’s true. People often say, “Rock, if you want a Christian wife, go to a church…” And I went to one last Friday. I saw a lot of single women who had good attitudes and I can see them as potential mates. But they were soooo overweight. Which is why I truly believe Feminism and Modern Culture is hurting Women more than it’s hurting Men. If it’s only Men who are told to improve, step-up, and hear the blunt honest truth… between men and women, which of us is actually going to improve and do well in life?

    Liked by 2 people

    • cameron232 says:

      Yes huge number of young women are fat. When I was a young man looking for a future girlfriend, being obese was 100% disqualifying. Wouldn’t even consider it. It’s not fair to you or the woman. I don’t find fat women attractive. The woman’s appearance is a lot of what you fall in love with. It’s wrong to settle for a woman you’re not attracted to – wrong for you and wrong for her.

      Wouldn’t want to be a young man these days – very few choices. Particuarly if you’re working class. The majority of working class white women seem to be obese.

      Liked by 2 people

    • That’s the “Men need to be fit or else, but women are healthy and beautiful at any size” nonsense being peddled 24×7. My wife cringes at all the fat women the clothing stores feel obligated to “celebrate.”

      Liked by 3 people

    • thedeti says:

      Great story, Rock. Rings true.

      Reminds me of going back home from college, in between college and law school, and the church ladies and their weird makeup and blue hair, telling me, “Oh deti, you’re such a catch! Gonna be a lawyer! Some girl will be really lucky to get you some day! Cuz you were always such a nice boy who loves the Lord! Dont you worry about losing your hair! Women love bald men!”

      Yeah. Uh huh.

      Translation:

      “You’re a catch because a woman will be able to target you, deploy some sex at you, use you, and take advantage of you. All she has to do is manipulate you into marrying her. Yeah, you’re a young baldy, but a woman will overlook that just long enough to ensnare you into a marriage. Women will accept your baldness, so just don’t worry about it. Just be a good little plowhorse beta and do as you’re told.”

      Liked by 3 people

      • cameron232 says:

        “…a woman will be able to target you, deploy some sex at you,”

        Yeah, from stories I hear in REAL life (not just the manosphere) that’s real common. Woman loses weight (because they know men don’t want fat girls), picks the guy (women choose, we don’t [1]), and screws him a bunch. Ring goes on –> Woman doesn’t want to have sex and she gets fat. Yeah, this is real bad — defraud the man not only of other opportunities, but really of his whole life.

        [1] A common lie that women tell is that “Men pick us.” This is done to gain a sort of moral high ground: “You’re not happy with the marriage or me? Well YOU picked ME buddy!” and as a way to excuse the way that they change after marriage [2]. It’s only plausible as a lie because of our ritual/custom where the man gets down on one knee, offers her an expensive token, and formally proposes. It’s a lie — women generally target men for marriage. This can be seen e.g. in pop culture where they depict the all too common real life situation where the woman nags the man into marriage: “When are you going to stop dragging your feet and propose?!!”

        [2] As Scott and a famous author have noted, men marry not wanting the woman to change, women marry wanting the man to change into what they want.

        Liked by 2 people

      • thedeti says:

        “Yeah, from stories I hear in REAL life (not just the manosphere) that’s real common. Woman loses weight…”

        More commonly, it’s that the woman has decided it is Time To Get a Boyfriend or Time To Get Married. She then picks out a decent enough guy who isn’t sexually attractive, not her type, but is a guy she gets along with well enough. As for the man, he’s delighted because she’s the hottest piece he’s ever even gotten to stand next to.

        She deploys a specific strategy including withholding sex to create an illusion of “high value”, followed by giving up sex after date 6 or so, then good decent sex until she finagles the engagement. After she gets the engagement ring, sex starts reducing and is rationed out. After the wedding, it slows to IV drip status and then to almost nothing.

        Why? Because she was WILLING to have sex with him but never really WANTED to have sex with him. She just wanted him for commitment, that’s all.

        “A common lie that women tell is that “Men pick us.” This is done to gain a sort of moral high ground: “You’re not happy with the marriage or me? Well YOU picked ME buddy!”

        Yeah, women do this, but it’s more to evade responsibility for their choices. It’s a lie because everyone knows men don’t pick women. Men display, women choose. Men display and wait to see what women express interest.

        Women do this because if things go well, they want to take the credit; but if it goes badly, they want someone else to take the blame. They never ever want to take responsibility for their choices.

        Liked by 3 people

    • anonymous_ng says:

      I had a little old lady at church ask me what I thought about a single woman at church, and I replied that I didn’t find her attractive, and this nice old woman asked with a straight face, “Why does she have to be attractive?”

      I’m still speechless.

      I wish that I’d had the presence of mind at the time to tell her that if it wasn’t for sex, I have no need of a wife as I’m probably better at everything than most of the women out there.

      Liked by 5 people

      • Women need to hear the saying that “Without sex, marriage is, at best, nothing but a wildly expensive and needlessly complicated friendship. Without steady sex, why should men bother?”

        Liked by 5 people

      • thedeti says:

        “…this nice old woman asked with a straight face, “Why does she have to be attractive?”

        But she’s so NICE!

        Yeah. I got this too. There were guys at my high school who got bullied into taking homely girls to dances by their more attractive friends. “But she’s SO NICE!! If you won’t take her out, then you’re just a shallow @ssh0le. If you won’t date her, then you’re NOT NICE. If you won’t take her out, then no one else will like you and I will tell the whole school about what a jerk/pervy/weirdo/@ssh0le you are.”

        In small town midwestern America in 1983, that kind of girl bullying actually worked.

        Liked by 3 people

      • cameron232 says:

        Eternity Matters – it’s an inferior friendship too. We get along better with our best male friend, have more common interests with him, etc. No emotional complications.

        We just don’t want to kiss, hold hands with and have sex with our best male friend and he can’t give us a family.

        Liked by 4 people

      • caterpillar345 says:

        This is just so unbelievable to me, especially coming from people at a church who supposedly believe in saving sex for marriage. I just don’t understand how a person can possibly have this view.

        Liked by 1 person

      • caterpillar345 says:

        It makes me angry that people in churches think this way about something that God created (i.e. beautiful women and men with a sex drive). And churches wring their hands and “can’t figure out why” young people don’t want to be anywhere near a church.

        I think I’ve posted this before somewhere. A few years ago I was at a regional young adult weekend sponsored by the church I attend. 50 or so young adults (18-30ish) from around the country in attendance. This was the third year it was put on and after two years of “Christian Living” themes, they finally made the theme “Relationships.” Even then, with 4 seminars, only 1 was specifically about relationships with the opposite sex. (The others were about relationships with church members, parents, God… blah blah blah… Who really cares about that?) And THEN, in this seminar about opposite sex relationships, in front of 50 single young adults, the presenter said something to the effect of “Don’t worry, sex in marriage isn’t that big a deal. It’s only one aspect and it’s not the most important part because your looks don’t last.” !!!! I couldn’t believe what I heard. What a stupid thing to say to 50 young adults who you ostensibly want to see stay in the church and be happily married. I considered who he was — 50’s, balding, short, with a bit of a gut, etc. and realized he surely was trying to convince himself of the same thing.

        SMH. It’s just so stupid. Wishful thinking by people who want it to be true that “being nice” is attractive.

        Liked by 5 people

      • thedeti says:

        “This is just so unbelievable to me, especially coming from people at a church who supposedly believe in saving sex for marriage. I just don’t understand how a person can possibly have this view.”

        Gynocentrism. Because our society has decided that women are entitled to whatever they want or need.

        Because churchians desperately want “nice is sexually attractive” to be true. Despite the fact that it is manifestly and obviously false.

        Liked by 3 people

      • Jack says:

        “I had a little old lady at church ask me what I thought about a single woman at church, and I replied that I didn’t find her attractive, and this nice old woman asked with a straight face, “Why does she have to be attractive?”

        For one, older people have the luxury of having the clarity of mind that comes from not having a libido. But for younger people, libido is a motivator that changes the whole equation.

        Secondly, years ago when they were younger, a person’s looks did not receive quite as much emphasis as it does today. They had a different equation for selecting a partner back then.

        Third, and this is the one that is rather insidious — She’s right in a sense. It’s not that Men should not prioritize attraction per se, but that Men should be looking for a whole collage of traits — a meek spirit, faithful, kindhearted, shared values, a complementary personality, same political and socioeconomic class, a SMV on par with his own… and, oh yeah, easy on the eyes too, or is at least diligent about taking care of her body and appearance. IOW, someone who matches themselves in such a way to produce a relationship that glorifies God. I’m convinced that this quality is what allows couples to find contentment and stay together long term. But no one ever talks about the value of holistic symbiosis in relationships anymore. Even years ago, people didn’t talk about this very much. The most that was ever said was, “Oh, they’re a good match!” or “They don’t make a good pair.” (The modern byword now is “incompatible” which is even more nebulous and only comes up in divorce proceedings.) Nothing was ever said about how or why a couple matches well. These days, vetting and framing up a potential match in this way is a forgotten art. Now, sex and sexual attraction is the central part of all things intersexual.

        Fourth, the thing that makes everything so confusing to young people is when older people convey a lot of conflicting views. As others have mentioned elsewhere in this thread, some of the things they say are a kind of gaslighting, psychological projection, or outright lies. Even the most well meaning people won’t convey the whole truth. This is just as true today as it was years ago. For me, this pushed me to be more introspective and made me learn to think for myself, but I also had a father who encouraged me to do so.

        Like

      • Re. finding your partner attractive: For our pre-marriage counseling, I had to fill out a lengthy questionnaire. I was less than thrilled about this, so to speed things up I answered 5 questions at a time in my head and then wrote the answers down (e.g., true-true-false-true-false). The problem was that I made a couple mistakes, most notably on the “Do you find your fiance attractive?” question. Yes, I found her quite attractive, but I accidentally marked it “false.” I’m still living that one down 36 years later. The kids got a kick out of that.

        Liked by 1 person

      • anonymous_ng says:

        Just to clarify, this happened in the latter half of 2019, and I was 52 years old at the time.

        Liked by 1 person

      • locustsplease says:

        They have no idea. It has not crossed her mind that a man may want a woman for something. She’s living off the blue pill, “worship your wife” and get nothing in return. Most women set you up to be a great deal for the woman, not you.

        Like

    • caterpillar345 says:

      Rock and deti –
      I heard things like this a lot growing up. I built my whole personality around being “nice”, straight-laced, doing things right, doing what the adults said because I believed them, etc.

      “If you’re going after the right kinds of girls and it still isn’t working, then you’re just not doing or saying the right things. You’re doing or saying something to offend or insult them.”

      “If you’re doing and saying the right things and it still isn’t working, then it’s probably because you’re trying to have sex with them. Girls don’t really like sex. Girls will have sex only in a relationship and only with men they know well. Girls won’t have sex with you until they feel an emotional connection to you.”

      “If you’re doing and saying everything right and not trying to have sex with them, well….. it’s probably because you’re not nice enough…..”

      And on and on and on. This was churchian “dating advice” circa 1982-1990. It was just ridiculous, it really was.

      It’s really amazing to read some of this. I was a kid/early teens in the 2000’s and this was the advice I heard. I understand what you mean about seeing and sensing one thing but being told another thing. And like you said, I trusted that the adults were telling me the truth and cared about me. That they knew something I didn’t. I heard lots of old church ladies tell me that I was handsome but I never heard the same from any girls my age. Since I assumed the adults were right, I assumed that my peers didn’t really understand how things were “supposed to work.”

      I hope that the adults who gave all this essentially terrible advice were well-meaning. But I partly believe that deti is right about the outright lies and I also suspect that for some adults who never got the opportunity to explore the “wilder side” of the SMP (but wished they could have) they doubled-down on virtues so the kids under their purview wouldn’t get to experience it either, on account of a sort of jealousy.

      Liked by 4 people

      • cameron232 says:

        Caterpillar – my favorite one was “Stay sweet and the girls will love you to death!”

        Umm… No they won’t. Not if you don’t have the other qualities they want.

        I think the women’s motivations in telling us that have been described here. They simply, instinctively want me to keep coming to the table — to be available to them, their daughters, their BFFs daughters, etc.

        The men saying this were mostly Boomer betacucks who “behave” really well and then get a little bit of love and affection doled out whenever wife-y pooh decides it’s warranted. You can’t underestimate the cuckiness, emotional neediness of some men, especially liberal men and Boomer men.

        Liked by 2 people

      • caterpillar345 says:

        100% agree. I’ve thought for years, as people were telling me things like the above, “Hmm… I wonder when the last time this couple has had sex. It’s not obvious to me that it was recently or more frequently than necessary to have kids.”

        “They simply, instinctively want me to keep coming to the table – to be available to them, their daughters, their BFFs daughters, etc.”

        Specifically as a provider, not as a sexy handsome man they desire.

        Liked by 3 people

      • thedeti says:

        “…doing what the adults said because I believed them…”

        And you believed them because you had no other frame of reference for it. You believed them because…

        — They were your parents and family members and caring adults around you who loved you and cared about you and represented to you they wanted what was best for you.

        — They were older than you and presumably knew more because they had been through it themselves and thus presumably knew what they were talking about while you did not.

        — You did not know anything about any of this and were relying on knowledgeable people who cared about you and loved you to help you with it

        Then when you get out into the world and you tell them that what you’re seeing is CLEARLY not lining up with what they said, you hear…

        “Well, they are lying to you and I am not. You need to be nicer, you’re just not going after the right kinds of girls, and you’re just not doing it right. If you listen to others and not to me, if you believe your lying eyes, it will fail, YOU will fail, girls will hate you, everyone will hate you, no women will ever love you, you’ll never have any friends, you will be ostracized and kicked out of school, you will never get a job, and your entire life will be an abject failure and you will die alone.”

        Yes, absolutely, we did not pay sufficient attention to the evidence right in front of us. But some men being who they are, we listened to authority figures and believed them in spite of the evidence. Lesson learned. It’s why I now believe no one is being honest with me until they prove their honesty to my satisfaction. It’s why I now don’t listen to words and pay much more attention to action.

        Liked by 4 people

  13. thedeti says:

    There’s something that people are overlooking in this discussion about women’s attraction equation.

    Much of it depends on what a particular woman wants and where she is in her life at particular points in time. A woman who isn’t really looking for a boyfriend or is fresh off a relationship and just looking to have some fun will put a premium on a man’s physical appearance. She wants him purely for sexual pleasure and for fun.

    But a woman who is looking for any level of commitment from a man will start downplaying looks and will start looking for other indicia of stability and reliability. Has an education, a job, his own car, his own place.

    He doesn’t have to be good looking. He just has to be not bad looking.

    He doesn’t have to inspire tingles. He just has to be OK enough such that she won’t puke in her mouth when they have sex.

    She doesn’t have to want to have sex with him. All she has to do is be willing to have sex with him. And that “willingness” to have sex with him will come with whatever conditions she decides to put on it at any given time – but primarily, he has to be all in on commitment immediately. He has to be exclusive to her and make all his resources immediately and exclusively available to her.

    That’s the difference. That’s what people are not really paying attention to here.

    Liked by 2 people

  14. Devon70 says:

    I mentioned in one of the other posts that more American guys are looking to other countries because the options here are so bad. I’ve been an engineer for 30 years and have worked with several immigrant women that grew up in more conservative cultures (China, India, Latin America). These women are MUCH better marriage partners then women that grew up in the modern US. None of these women have become obese or raging feminists. If I had one piece of advice for a young American guy it would be to at least take a look at other countries or women that grew up in a more conservative culture and moved to the US.

    Like

  15. Pingback: Harnessing the Motivations of Others | Σ Frame

  16. feeriker says:

    “Now, I just presume everyone is lying to me. I just presume people, but especially women, are lying to me, until proven otherwise. I just presume bad faith until sufficient good faith is shown.”

    Sad as it is to admit, that really is the life philosophy every man HAS TO adopt if he is to avoid being eaten alive. Churchians will attempt to shame him for holding that attitude, labeling him “cynical,” “unloving,” and “unChristlike,” among other epithets. It should serve to deflect such labels if he remembers that churchians are some of the people largely responsible for him holding such an attitude.

    Liked by 1 person

  17. Scott says:

    The truthful reframe to this is that men are well aware of their own depravity and are reminded of it with great frequency, but women are not and so that is where we need to focus. We’re constantly told about it through societal messaging (evil patriarchy, in school little boys natural energy is bad and the girls’ relative docility is good) and in church. What we have an almost complete dearth of women being forced to face their own depravity. Even in church the singling out of women’s specific sin tendencies is so rare that when it happens it’s surprising.

    I wish I could find the original article, but a college professor actually studied this a few years back. He found that men have way more knowledge and introspection about the character challenges that come from being male than women do about themselves.

    The men were able to explore, in great detail, all the things they must work on within themselves to fight against their own nature–for prosocial reasons.

    The women talked about how they were guilty of “loving too much” or “not loving themselves” enough. A total lack of serious engagement in the spirit of the questionnaire.

    This is clearly a reflection of messaging, over several generations.

    We don’t need to challenge ourselves more. Its all we do, all day, every day. We are required to by the entire civlization.

    Liked by 4 people

    • Red Pill Apostle says:

      Scott – If you do find the research, I’d like to read it.

      “We don’t need to challenge ourselves more. Its all we do, all day, every day. We are required to by the entire civilization.”

      For the married men on this forum, most churches gloss over the implications of Ephesians 5:26-27 or miss them completely. Men typically do not need to challenge ourselves more. What we need to do much more of is challenging our wives to meet biblical standards. This very thing reversed the course of my marriage.

      In my case there are two specific things I did, really I stumbled into them (call it divine direction), that started the snowball rolling down the mounting. I told her what I thought of her as a wife. I told her that her behavior was abhorrently sinful against both me and God. Then I stuck to my guns even through the trial and error of the past couple years and the fruit that the effort has yielded is amazing.

      Liked by 3 people

    • anonymous_ng says:

      Scott, I think this is the article to which you are referring.

      http://www.drurywriting.com/keith/Do.Women.sin.htm


      It’s happened to me three times now so I need to ask you about it. All three times were so similar it’s eerie.

      In a spiritual formation class we work on how Christians can get victory over sin as a part of their spiritual growth. To start the unit I ask students to list the sins Christians face most today. They list four sins immediately:

      Internet Porn
      Pride
      Lust
      Anger
      

      Then they pause…they run out of sins. These four got listed quickly each time. In fact I’ve come to call them the “foul four” sins. Then they run out of gas and just sit there thinking.

      At the pause I usually ask, “OK, for each sin on our list let’s decide as a class if men or women are more inclined to this sin. In all three classes they have agreed that while women are sometimes tempted in these areas men are more inclined to these four sins.

      So I say, “Only women participate now—decide among yourselves what four sins you’d add to the list to that you think women are more inclined toward. Silence. Furrowed brows. Thinking… [long pause]

      Really! Each time the women who (along with the men) had quickly offered the “foul four” are at a loss to quickly add “besetting sins” that women seem more inclined toward. And now for the part that got me to write on this subject.

      The last two times I did this activity the women unanimously agreed on what they considered the chief besetting sin of women:

      Lack of self esteem
      

      I’m serious. So were they. The last two times I did this when a women offered “Self esteem” the entire group of women audibly responded, “Yeah—that’s it!”

      You see where I’m headed? Lack of self esteem? To the men in the class these co-eds were saying, “While you men struggle with pornography, lust, pride and anger we women struggle with not thinking highly enough of ourselves.” (Several men in the class always visibly roll their eyes.)

      To be fair, the women (after considerably time) usually add three other sins: resentment, bitterness, and lack of trust. But even their expanded list appeared to the guys in the class that men struggle with really bad sins while women fight minor sins. This male response was actually summed up the last time I did this. One male student exclaimed, “Gee, if I just struggled with those sins I’d be a saint!” To him “women’s temptations” were misdemeanors while his own besetting sins were obviously capital crimes.

      So, it got thinking. Are men more really inclined to sin than women—are they somehow in the grip of original sin more than women? Can this be true? In much of the ancient world women were considered weaker moral creatures with a greater inclination to sin them males—has this been reversed in the modern world?

      Or, have we labeled “male sins” crimes while mislabeling the temptations of women as less severe?

      Or, are female college students (at least in my college) more unaware of sin than males?

      Or what other explanation is there for this repeated phenomenon I’ve seen?

      Now, I know that dealing with sin and gender differences is touchy territory—all generalizations have exceptions and are not always true (or they would not be generalizations). But I keep sensing that my students are uncovering something interesting. What is it? What are they discovering about themselves, the church culture or theology?

      What do you think? How would you explain this?

      Like

      • thedeti says:

        Dalrock talked about this. The reason women are so unaware of their sin is the past 70 or so years of the church and our entire society normalizing and “de-sinning” women’s sin, while demonizing and amplifying men’s sin. The church enables women.

        The church has created an entire false theology about women in order to enable them. Most of that false theology involves carving so many exceptions out of Ephesians 5:22-24 (wives submit) that it’s been rendered totally meaningless. At the same time our false prophets have etched Ephesians 5:25-28 into stone and elevated those latter verses as if Moses, Elijah, and Christ Himself sang them in unison on Mount Sinai and branded them onto the eyelids of every man alive.

        Our false theologians hold that for women, marriage is all benefits and no obligation; but for husbands, marriage is all obligation with no benefits.

        Why has all this work been done?

        When you get all the way down to it, it’s because women said this:

        “Do what we want, or we will not have sex with you.

        “Do what we want, or we will stop going to church here, stop volunteering, and stop giving tithe money.”

        That’s really it. It’s just one big Lysistrata sh!t test. “Do what I want, give me what I want, or I will not have sex with you and I’m gonna take my toys and go home.”, writ large on a society wide/cultural scale.

        Men in today’s North American church are positively terrified of women. They’re terrified that they won’t get their sexual goodies if they don’t cave in and give their women what they want. Pastors (mostly men, with a growing number of ordained women pressuring them) are terrified that the offering plates will be empty and there won’t be anyone there to answer the phones, mop the floors, run the nursery, serve coffee, or teach Sunday School. Female pastors are all for the false theology — some of them have helped design that false theology.

        That’s why, people. It’s because women threaten to stop having sex with husbands and women threaten to leave their churches and go somewhere else with a more ear-tickling doctrine.

        Just that simple.

        Liked by 3 people

      • Exactly. They violate God’s commands before marriage by sex-napping men, then afterward by making a mockery of 1 Corinthians 7:1-5. And they do it so reflexively and in such a tone-deaf way. They could probably pass polygraphs stating that they aren’t doing anything wrong.

        Liked by 2 people

      • thedeti says:

        Eternity Matters:

        Yes. I am REALLY getting tired of women doing this to husbands:

        “We are married. The only person you can have sex with is me; but I will not have sex with you. I can have sex with you; I’m physically and medically able to. I just won’t, because I don’t have to and I don’t want to.”

        That is just absolutely unacceptable and a nonstarter and churches need to start calling women out on this with no quarter whatsoever.

        Women, if you’re doing this, your husbands should divorce you immediately and drag you through every social media platform available.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        “We are married. The only person you can have sex with is me; but I will not have sex with you. I can have sex with you; I’m physically and medically able to. I just won’t, because I don’t have to and I don’t want to.”

        That is just absolutely unacceptable and a nonstarter and churches need to start calling women out on this with no quarter whatsoever.

        Women, if you’re doing this, your husbands should divorce you immediately and drag you through every social media platform available.”

        Older men need to counsel younger men to be mentally prepared discard unrepentant wives like this early in the marriage because it only gets harder the longer you let the sin fester. The counsel must include not to have children with wives like this, because once you have kids, you are not only playing with adult lives but your kids’ lives too.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Joe2 says:

        I would have asked the students their opinion about the women who participate in making the internet porn they consider a “male sin.”

        I’ve heard many times from Christians explanations claiming the women,
        1) were abused when they were young most likely by their fathers,
        2) were drugged,
        3) were tricked,
        4) were kidnapped,
        5) were forced into porn by men,
        6) were victims of ….

        The possibility that women entered the porn business under their own free will was never mentioned. That just doesn’t happen. There has to be some underlying cause or extenuating circumstance. Thus, these are virtuous women who through no fault of their own got involved in porn!

        Liked by 3 people

      • cameron232 says:

        A young lady at work, K., has a friend who is now married, who has internet p0rn participation “out there.” She wasn’t on drugs or coerced. Her husband gets to live with this disgusting reality the rest of his life.

        Like

      • thedeti says:

        Cam, Joe2:

        Women just won’t admit:

        –they absolutely LOVE having sex with attractive men.

        –if the man is attractive enough, they’ll do anything he asks them to do, including having sex on camera and putting it on the internet.

        –they secretly love the attention they get from doing amateur porn. Anything for attention, and negative attention is better than no attention.

        Liked by 1 person

    • thedeti says:

      The women talked about how they were guilty of “loving too much” or “not loving themselves” enough. A total lack of serious engagement in the spirit of the questionnaire.

      I have had hundreds of discussions with women about female depravity, shortcomings, and sins. Every discussion progresses like this:

      Man: Women do X and that is destructive to male-female relationships.

      Women:

      1) No, women do not do X. Women never ever do X.

      2) Well, OK, maybe women do X. But it’s really x. Or it’s x-1. So it’s not really X.

      3) OK, it’s X. But men do X too, and men do it worse, and more often.

      4) OK, women do X about the same as men. But when men do X, the consequences are worse.

      5) OK, the consequences of women doing X are the same. But…. women have good reasons for doing X:

      a) institutional sexism and discrimination

      b) Wage gap/pay gap

      c) men abuse women

      d) men rape women

      e) men use women sexually.

      f) men are just mean and rude to women

      6) OK, well, maybe those things don’t justify women doing X. But… you’re just a misogynist who hates women.

      7) OK, well, maybe you don’t hate women. But you’re a creep and a weirdo.

      8) OK, well, maybe you’re not a creep. But you need to check your heart because if you think women do X or that women doing X matters, then you’re not a real Christian and you’re going to hell.

      9) OK, maybe you’re a Christian, but… FOUND THE INCEL!

      Liked by 2 people

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        These could be inserted at any point in your comment

        “OK, well, maybe, but you talking to me about X just doesn’t FEEL right/good.”

        “OK, but X is offensive because I don’t do X.”

        Liked by 1 person

      • thedeti says:

        RPA

        Oh yeah, I forgot that one.

        2a) OK, maybe SOME women do X. But I don’t do X, my friends don’t do X, and no women I know do X.

        Like

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        deti – If I had a dime for every time I heard, “But I don’t do X, my friends don’t do X, and no women I know do X.”, I’d permanently have my toes in the water and @$$ in the sand.

        Liked by 1 person

      • thedeti says:

        RPA:

        It’s because women take all of this discussion about women so personally.

        Women view every discussion about women’s sins as if you are talking about them personally. Whenever this comes up, every woman in the discussion thinks, or knows, that you’re talking about her.

        Women view every discussion about women’s sins and shortcomings as a personal affront and an insult. (It kind of makes me think that these discussions hit close to home for them.)

        The women who used to participate here did that. Every time some bad thing women did was brought up, those women (and they know who they are, and I know who they are too) would chime in:

        Well, I don’t do that! My friends don’t do that! No women I know do that!

        I did that once, but I don’t do it anymore!

        I used to do that, but I don’t do it anymore!

        This one woman I know does that, but she’s a ho!

        Sheila Gregoire is notorious for this. The “no true Scotswoman” argument. (Paraphrasing) Well, OK, maybe some dirty, depraved, unregenerate nonChristian women do that. But I don’t do that, my daughters don’t do that, the women who comment on my site don’t do that, and the women I go to church with don’t do that (that I know of). So you’re just WRONG!

        Maybe women need to do a little self examination on this. Kind of like we men are forced to do every single day.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        deti – In our church small group a few weeks ago Mrs. Apostle said (paraphrasing) “I’ve been convicted that behaviors I thought were justified, weren’t justified at all. They were just me being sinful.”

        I have decent poker face, but that one got a raised eyebrow from me because am intimately aware of the comment’s background. Like I mentioned upthread, men are supposed to apply Ephesians 5:26-27 to their wives. She may react poorly and bolt. Or she may react poorly* and then begin a road to greater introspection and change. I happen to be blessed by the latter option.

        *The initial reaction is always going to be poor because of the who emotionally driven weaker sex thing, but what matters is what she does once the initial blustering is done.

        Liked by 3 people

  18. anonymous_ng says:

    Found this one while searching, and it’s kinda interesting.

    https://bustedhalo.com/features/pure-sex-pure-love-87-do-women-sin-differently-than-men

    Like

  19. thedeti says:

    Not only is there a false theology for women; there’s also an entire sexual morality especially for women. It all springs from the idea that women are morally superior to men and are “closer to God” than men are. False theology holds that

    women are just better human beings than men are. Women are more moral, more spiritual, and more nurturing and caring than men are. Women can more easily hear and respond to the Holy Spirit’s voice and leading. Women just naturally have hearts that are more tender and more malleable to the Spirit’s direction. Women are the more natural parents to children. Women are quieter, softer, kinder, gentler, and easier to get along with. These things are of God, and make women better than men.

    Men are inferior to women. Men are loud, aggressive, boisterous, competitive, and driven. These things drown out and quench the Spirit and cause men to become haughty and self important. Men are lustful, hypersexual, and driven by fleshly pursuits like sex, consumption, materialism, conquest, and imperialism. These things cause men to believe they are God, and harden their hearts to the Spirit. Men tend to ignore their children or impose standards and expectations upon them, which embitter their children. Men are cold, fact driven, direct, blunt, calculating, analytical, and logical. These things are not the heart of God. For all these reasons, women are better than men, because they are ‘closer to God’ than men are.

    From this, the false sexual morality sprung up.

    –Judgment and rejection of women are not allowed. No one is allowed at any time to express any moral judgments about anything a woman says or does. No one is allowed to criticize any decisions a woman makes or things she says. A woman cannot be excommunicated, because nothing she can ever do or say can be judged as “wrong”. Men are never, ever to reject her for dating, or to exclude her from consideration for dating or marriage for any reason. Judgment and rejection are mortal sins and you will be struck dead on sight the moment you commit either of them.

    –Women never lie. Women especially never lie about sex. Men lie all the time about everything. Men especially lie about sex, so they can trick and dupe unsuspecting women into having illicit sex.

    –When unmarried women have sex, it’s not sin, because the only reason they’re having that sex is because they’re in love with the man they’re having sex with. Women don’t ever have sex unless they feel an emotional connection to the man they’re having sex with. And women just want to be wives and mommies, and that’s why they have sex.

    But when unmarried men have sex, it’s dirty, nasty, sinful, ugly fornication.

    –If a woman was a slut, but repents and stops having promiscuous sex, she is a “born again virgin”. She is pure as the driven snow and is marriage ready. This is so even if she has a bastard child. It is as if she had never had sex before. She is entitled to marriage and to be treated as a virgin. The men of the church are required to consider her for marriage. If they do not, then they are not real Christians and they will burn in hell.

    –When women refuse to submit, it’s not because those women are being disobedient. No, it’s because of their husbands’ moral failures. He’s not submitted to God; he’s being disobedient to God, he’s not going to church, he’s not reading his Bible, he’s not going to men’s ministry, he’s working too hard, etc. If their husbands would only do what they’re supposed to be doing, those wives would gladly submit.

    –When a woman refuses her husband sex, it’s not because she’s disobeying God and not because she’s failing to discharge a marital obligation. No, it’s because her husband hasn’t earned access to the marital bed. He’s got to prove himself worthy of her sexual favors. He’s not “dating” her enough. He’s not being nice to her. And he’s not making her ‘feel attractive’.

    –When a woman cheats on her husband, it’s because he drove her to it. He wasn’t nice to her. He didn’t make her “feel” attracted. He works too much and is gone all the time. He doesn’t work enough and so she has to work. She was 100% justified in cheating on him. She shouldn’t have cheated, but as long as she says one “our father” and tells her husband she’s sorry, she is 100% forgiven. Until the next time she cheats. But he has to grovel and apologize to her, because after all, he made her do it, and she would never have done it if he hadn’t driven her to it.

    But when a man cheats on his wife, it’s because he’s an unredeemable lustful degenerate sinner who’s going to burn in hell for all eternity even if he grovels and repents and promises never to do it again. Or at the very least, his soon to be ex wife is perfectly 100% justified in impoverishing him and keeping their children away from him for all time, and the church will back her 100% and pay for her attorney and excommunicate him. To our false theologians, cheating on a wife is the absolute 100% worst thing a married man can do. Male cheating is The Unforgiveable Sin.

    –When an unmarried woman gets knocked up and has an abortion, it’s because a man made her do it. He wouldn’t step up and man up and take responsibility. She is brave and heroic for suffering so much under the evil influence of an evil man. The church is required to rally around her and support her. And must never ever judge her. The man must be reviled, demonized, confronted, sternly corrected, and made to do penance if repentant; and excommunicated and possibly arrested if unrepentant.

    –When an unmarried woman gets knocked up and has the child, she is even braver and more heroic than the woman who had the abortion. She is to be exalted among women (because, after all, Mary the Mother of Jesus was a single mom). She is to be feted and showered with praise and material benefits. The man who knocked her up is to be shamed and dragged and made to pay. Since he will not marry her and is not worthy of her, an upstanding single man from among our number must be harangued and shamed and browbeaten and cucked into marrying her and adopting the child as his own. And any man who attends this church who will not marry her needs to check his heart because he’s not a real Christian and he’s going to burn in hell.

    –When a woman divorces her husband, it’s because her evil, stupid, unattentive, unattractive, unfaithful, workaholic husband drove her to it. He obviously did something or said something to her to cause her to leave. He obviously made her life so intolerable that she had no choice but to leave. She did everything she could to save the marriage, and her divorcing him is the absolute last resort.

    But if a man divorces his wife, it’s because he is evil, stupid, immoral, disobedient, unfaithful, and doesn’t care about his wife.

    Liked by 1 person

    • thedeti says:

      –Men are required to consider all women for dating and marriage. This includes overweight/obese women, sexually unattractive women, mentally ill women, “reformed sluts”, women with no wife skills or training, and socially awkward women. This is because God commands us to “look upon the heart”. All women are beautiful in God’s eyes. All women are entitled to fulfilling and rewarding marriages and sex lives, regardless of their appearances or their skill levels.

      So if men are excluding some women based on outward appearance or sexual attractiveness, or because of their faces or breast sizes or dress sizes or waist to hip ratios, or because those women had sex before or have no social skills – all of these things are morally wrong. Men who are doing these things need to check their hearts and their spiritual conditions, because they are not real Christians and they are going to burn in hell. Men who do that are judging and rejecting, and those are mortal sins and they need to confess those sins and repent of them. Men are simply not permitted to judge or reject women on their outward appearances, social backgrounds, or past histories.

      Like

    • cameron232 says:

      “When an unmarried woman gets knocked up and has an abortion, it’s because a man made her do it.”

      If you remember, when Trump first jumped on the pro-life wagon, he hadn’t been fed the official script. He actually thought about it independently and concluded that the woman who gets an abortion should be punished too. Boy o’ boy! The shrieks and howls.

      You didn’t read from the script Donny T.!!!!!!! Women who get abortions are victims!!

      Used to be automatic excommunication – who knows now.

      Like

    • Oscar says:

      “When an unmarried woman gets knocked up and has an abortion, it’s because a man made her do it.”

      I’ve literally heard that preached from the pulpit multiple times.

      “If you remember, when Trump first jumped on the pro-life wagon, he hadn’t been fed the official script. He actually thought about it independently and concluded that the woman who gets an abortion should be punished too. Boy o’ boy! The shrieks and howls.”

      I remember that. Trump made the obvious logical connection. If abortion really is murder (which it is), then procuring an abortion is hiring someone to commit murder, which makes the client just as guilty of murder as the person actually committing the murder. Trump didn’t get the memo that you’re not supposed to hold women accountable for anything.

      I recently listened to two Christian pro-life advocates on Tim Pool try and explain why abortion is murder, but women shouldn’t be prosecuted for aborting their babies. The logical contortions were pathetic.

      “When a woman divorces her husband, it’s because her evil, stupid, unattentive, unattractive, unfaithful, workaholic husband drove her to it.”

      Man, I’m so tired of hearing sermons criticizing men for being workaholics. In my entire working life (13 – 46 so far) I’ve met somewhere between 5 and 10 actual workaholics — men who derived their joy from work above everything else. I’ve known tons of men who worked long hours to get out of poverty, or to pay off debt, but only a handful who did it for pleasure.

      You know what I’ve known a lot of, though? Men who work long hours, volunteer for business trips, even volunteer for overseas deployments — even combat deployments — to get away from their nagging, insufferable, contentious wives.

      Shockingly, I’ve never heard a sermon about that.

      Liked by 3 people

      • anonymous_ng says:

        @Oscar, an NCO who worked for me when I was in the USAF had a neighbor who spent from quitting time until sundown out on his riding lawnmower keeping his lawn looking like a golf course putting green. His comment was that the man’s wife must be a real peach.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Oscar,

        “You know what I’ve known a lot of, though? Men who work long hours, volunteer for business trips, even volunteer for overseas deployments — even combat deployments — to get away from their nagging, insufferable, contentious wives.

        Shockingly, I’ve never heard a sermon about that.”

        Proverbs 21 is suspiciously missing from most pastors’ bibles. 😉

        Liked by 1 person

    • thedeti says:

      Along these same lines, I was looking at a video for a contemporary Christian song I used to like: “Broken Together” by Casting Crowns. Video here:

      Even in popular Christian media, whenever there are marriage problems, it’s always depicted as the man having caused them. Whenever a married couple fight, it’s always the man who has to come to her to resolve it. It’s always the man who has to cave in and capitulate. If there is conflict, it is always he, not she, who is being unreasonable. If there are problems, it’s because he was out there working and was “too busy”. He has to do all the changing and compromising so the relationship can be preserved. She doesn’t have to do anything. He’s the one who “hurt” her, so he needs to approach her, apologize, repent, and change.

      It can’t ever be that she’s in the wrong. It can’t ever be that she should compromise. It can’t ever be that she is the one who needs to move and initiate reconciliation. It can’t ever be that she is the one who needs to change. It can’t ever be that she needs repentance and she needs to do the relationship restorative work.

      Liked by 1 person

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