More thoughts on wife selection and wife moulding.
Theme: Giving the gift of your self to others.
Author’s Note: The contents of this post cover an email string between me and deti. Jack helped organize and compile the content. Deti’s messages are shown in blue. Email addresses and real names have been omitted to protect the innocent and mild profanity has been edited, also to protect the innocent.
Length: 2,400 words
Reading Time: 8 minutes
Deti’s Advice to Underqualified Men (2020-12-08) got me thinking about how difficult the SMP/MMP is for most men. In rereading the post and contemplating it further, I was reminded of how most men do not have any network of male associates to confide in, and how important it is to have other trustworthy men in my life from which to seek counsel. Personally, I do have a few other men whom I can talk with about things like this (deti, Jack, Mike Davis, et al.), and I correspond with them regularly through email. I know Jack also has a short list of men with whom he regularly confides in.
The development of ideas from the back and forth is part of the reason I wanted to post my conversation with deti as a string, as this shows the thought process. I had an idea, wanted to check with a man I trusted that I was on the right track, and from the back and forth with deti, the idea developed further branching into areas I hadn’t contemplated yet. This highlights how important it is to have men, specifically those who clearly see the truth, to speak with. It doesn’t have to be anything formal, as the following email string shows.
In the comments, I noticed that many of the men carried a pessimistic outlook on the entire SMP/MMP. For a time, I was undecided about whether they were being realistic or just being armchair cynics. But when I looked at my own marriage, I realized that my wife was definitely far from perfect when we married. According to the standard vetting advice that is now available on the sphere, she wouldn’t have passed. But yet, that didn’t stop me from marrying her. It’s been a long haul, but over the past year, she’s become a worthy wife. The other men I’ve talked with all have pretty much the same story about their marriages. So in the final analysis, I think that no matter where a man might stand in the socio-sexual hierarchy, having a woman will require a lot of determination, patience, and faith.
Last week’s post, Dating in the Lion’s Den: Relying on Faith when the options are daunting (2021-12-13), covered some of my thoughts about these views. The following exchange picks up from there.
Messages between Red Pill Apostle and deti
Wed, Dec 8, 2021, 5:23 PM: RPA to deti
I’m torn on this one because of the fatalistic nature of the comments so far about what you wrote… which is funny coming from a predestination, PCA guy. I’m wondering if some of the attitude I’m seeing in the comments is indicative of self-fulfilling prophecy when it comes to some of these men’s experiences with women.
There also appears to be a concept of the perfect woman that is being searched for, much like the lost city of gold or the fountain of youth. It’s obviously not present very often today, but I don’t think women like this have ever existed with great frequency. Proverbs 31:10 was written for a reason. That reason is that human nature is wildly consistent and a woman of virtue or character is hard to find. If a man finds one, she’s a blessing from God.
What seems to be much more prevalent is men molding wives into something acceptable much like Ephesians 5 tells us to do in washing her with the Word. This would fit well with Paul’s marriage analogy of Christ and the church. Christ takes us as we are and molds us through sanctification, very patiently I might add, as I have yet to be incinerated by a white hot bolt of lightning. Christ’s patience with us would then be like Peter’s admonition for husbands not to be harsh and live with their wives in an understanding way.
You and I are two examples of men who have molded their wives. I’d add in Deep Strength too, except he appears to have done a good deal of the molding prior to being locked down which hopefully means he’ll be spared some of our more interesting marriage experiences.
Here is a great example of what that molding can do.
Think back to our first few emails months ago and what I described. [Editor’s Note: She was argumentative, disagreeable, sexually frigid, and had used almost all the Duluth Model of abuse tactics against me.] Then compare that with this story. This past Friday, I forgot to hide a package that got delivered with gifts in it and the boys found it Saturday morning. Mrs. Apostle had asked me to hide it and I forgot. I made a mistake. I know, I can hardly believe it either. She was upset and brought the matter to my attention before I’d had any coffee and she did it in a slightly snarky, gotcha manner. I gave it about 20 minutes and then calmly told her that I don’t mind her expressing frustration, but how she did it was disrespectful and the gotcha aspect of it is a way that inverts God’s authority order in marriage. I also acknowledged my mistake. She understood what she had done and agreed with me that her approach was off. Then we went about our day.
Is that not an example of what commenters say they are looking for in a wife? You and I both know that did not happen on its own. It took me working on both myself and her, and the Holy Spirit using that to transform her on the inside. My lump of clay was slightly different than yours from an age and carousel standpoint, but you were still able to mold yours significantly when you started using the correct tools for the job.
Am I off base on this?
Thu, Dec 9, 2021, 11:58 AM: deti to RPA
I don’t have a lot of time to delve into this today. Do you mean the comments from Rock, Scavos, et al.? Do you mean the comments of “the girls who felt that feminism lied to them and were so hurt”?
You’re not off base on this. In fact, I had to look hard for what you were talking about. It’s our nature as men to protect women.
A man has to take a woman and make her into HIS wife. Not just “a” wife. HIS wife. And a man has to have some frame to do that, and a woman who is at least willing to step into that frame and allow herself to be molded.
You have a post there, RPA.
Thu, Dec 9, 2021, 12:02 PM: deti to RPA
Another thing to bring up in a post like this is just how subtle all this is — We are hardwired to protect a crying, injured, distraught, distressed woman. We are hardwired to leap into Mighty Mouse “HERE I COME TO SAVE THE DAY!” mode for ANY woman in the vicinity who needs help.
Yes, good point about looking for “the perfect woman”. There is way too much romanticism about marriage and how it is supposed to be about:
Women: “I just wanna be a wife and mommy and nest and make babies and have my house and minivan and white picket fence and stuff!”
Men: “I just want the fun sex party train to keep rolling! Let the good times roll! I get to keep this girlfriend I’ve been banging for a while!”
Thu, Dec 9, 2021, 1:11 PM: RPA to deti
“The girls who felt that feminism lied to them and were so hurt” is part of the bigger picture of a fatalist, reductionist equation that many of the men buy into. It starts with the reality of RP knowledge that certain men have a limited pool of women in which they can fish. This is reality for the majority of men. The next step in the logic is that feminism has screwed up the vast majority of the women in their probable pool so options are even more restricted. For every action a man might take there is a negative reason for why it won’t work and they convince themselves to not even try, which then becomes a 100% self-fulfilling prophecy of not getting married. We have men convincing themselves to not even try, or, they are afraid of trying and use the logic to rationalize their inactivity.
So the woman hurt by feminism is a lump of clay that has been softened for a man already. She needs someone with vision and the right skills to mold her. Lori Alexander was a self-admitted raging [witch with a B] until she repented and became the woman that feminists love to loath. What I’m getting at is that we need to stop looking for the woman of our dreams that exists in completed form and start having the vision to see the potential for what actually can be. Women seem to be able to sniff out men with potential better than we as men sniff out women with potential. It’s because we overemphasize the boner test while underemphasizing key aspects of the character test.
“A man has to take a woman and make her into HIS wife. Not just “a” wife. HIS wife. And a man has to have some frame to do that, and a woman who is at least willing to step into that frame and allow herself to be molded.”
You clearly stated the character test here. It’s not if she’s a perfect unblemished saint that agrees with you on everything (I laughed a little writing that), it’s if she able and willing to be molded by a man. To me, looking back on my relationship, that is the key test during dating and even engagement. By default, if you like each other, you’ll typically agree on most things, but it’s his willingness to enforce his headship and her willingness to yield to it that tend to make it a good marriage or not.
You are correct. There is more to dissect within these thoughts.
Thu, Dec 9, 2021, 1:32 PM: deti to RPA
This is good stuff, RPA.
Some quick thoughts.
- Most of us men aren’t good at sniffing out women with potential because we’re not taught how to.
- It is a LOT of work to mold and shape a woman and a lot of us men don’t have the patience for it.
- No, I don’t think the woman ‘hurt by feminism’ is softened. She’s been hardened. She has to let God, or experience, soften her. Or, in some cases, like Mrs. deti’s, break her.
- A lot of women are broken and damaged. Not just softened. If she’s broken and damaged, there has to be repair and healing first. A lot of men are dealing with broken women. Mrs. deti was broken. Mrs. Apostle was broken, but not to Mrs. deti’s extent.
Thu, Dec 9, 2021, 4:58 PM: RPA to deti
- 1000 x YES! Teaching our sons how to identify the character traits of a virtuous woman, that is moldable, is one of the most important duties for us as fathers. In your case, guiding your daughter to be moldable is included in your mission.
- Too many men have neither the patience nor the intestinal fortitude to do this, because once you are married you are playing with real money. I’d say that molding a wife is much like breaking a mustang. There’s commotion, running, kicking, and lots of danger, but once the horse knows that you, the bridle, and saddle aren’t going anywhere no matter what it does, you end up with a pretty good companion that generally does what you want it to do.
- Mrs. Apostle broke too, with way more effort, but for very similar reasons as Mrs. deti. Thinking about this further, it might have to be the man that softens or breaks the woman during dating/engagement. This is what laying out the expectations for behavior will do. She’s in or out. She yields her will to his or she doesn’t.
- As people, we are all broken to some extent. The question is more of identifying the areas of the damage and then dealing with those well. Every broken aspect of a person is an opportunity to work and come out the other side with a stronger relationship. The key is identifying the type of broken God gave you the gifts to deal with. Me, I can grind things out with the patience of Job. Doing this just doesn’t bother me while this approach can drive other men nuts. Mrs. Apostle is stubborn and headstrong! Her dad told me this when I asked him for permission to marry her. By God’s grace, what I was naturally good at matched up with what she needed fixing and we’ve both been worked on by God in the process.
I think we should present this conversation as a post to Jack with the names and mild profanity edited out. I’d call it “2 Old Farts Talking About Their Wives”.
If a man is to wait until he can find the perfect wife, he may never marry because the Proverbs 31 wife is exceedingly rare. What does seem to exist is a wife who can be molded (a process leading to sanctification) into an actual submissive wife — something most of the men would think is a woman that does not exist for them. They key in selection is in identifying a woman’s overall potential as a wife. Of course, a man needs to develop himself and weigh the benefits and risks, but he also needs to be proactive and exercise discernment, wisdom, and whatever charisma he’s been granted.
- Illimitable Men: Dominance & Submission (2017-02-05)
- Σ Frame: Conflict Structure and Marital Satisfaction (2017-11-15)
- Σ Frame: Disciplined, Submissive, Happy Wives (2018-02-15)
- Σ Frame: How To Get A Better Response From Your Girl (2018-02-27)
- Σ Frame (J.T. Anderson): Moulding an Excellent Wife (2018-03-05)
- Σ Frame: Revealing Her Unencumbered Beauty (2018-06-26)
- Σ Frame: Lest we forget, Marriage was once intended to Glorify God (2019-08-08)
- Σ Frame: Washing Her Clean (2019-10-21)