2 Old Farts Talking About Their Wives

More thoughts on wife selection and wife moulding.

Readership: Men
Theme: Giving the gift of your self to others.
Author’s Note: The contents of this post cover an email string between me and deti. Jack helped organize and compile the content. Deti’s messages are shown in blue. Email addresses and real names have been omitted to protect the innocent and mild profanity has been edited, also to protect the innocent.
Length: 2,400 words
Reading Time: 8 minutes

Introduction

Deti’s Advice to Underqualified Men (2020-12-08) got me thinking about how difficult the SMP/MMP is for most men.  In rereading the post and contemplating it further, I was reminded of how most men do not have any network of male associates to confide in, and how important it is to have other trustworthy men in my life from which to seek counsel.  Personally, I do have a few other men whom I can talk with about things like this (deti, Jack, Mike Davis, et al.), and I correspond with them regularly through email. I know Jack also has a short list of men with whom he regularly confides in.

The development of ideas from the back and forth is part of the reason I wanted to post my conversation with deti as a string, as this shows the thought process.  I had an idea, wanted to check with a man I trusted that I was on the right track, and from the back and forth with deti, the idea developed further branching into areas I hadn’t contemplated yet.  This highlights how important it is to have men, specifically those who clearly see the truth, to speak with.  It doesn’t have to be anything formal, as the following email string shows.

In the comments, I noticed that many of the men carried a pessimistic outlook on the entire SMP/MMP. For a time, I was undecided about whether they were being realistic or just being armchair cynics. But when I looked at my own marriage, I realized that my wife was definitely far from perfect when we married. According to the standard vetting advice that is now available on the sphere, she wouldn’t have passed. But yet, that didn’t stop me from marrying her. It’s been a long haul, but over the past year, she’s become a worthy wife. The other men I’ve talked with all have pretty much the same story about their marriages. So in the final analysis, I think that no matter where a man might stand in the socio-sexual hierarchy, having a woman will require a lot of determination, patience, and faith.

Last week’s post, Dating in the Lion’s Den: Relying on Faith when the options are daunting (2021-12-13), covered some of my thoughts about these views. The following exchange picks up from there.

Messages between Red Pill Apostle and deti

Wed, Dec 8, 2021, 5:23 PM: RPA to deti

deti,

I’m torn on this one because of the fatalistic nature of the comments so far about what you wrote… which is funny coming from a predestination, PCA guy. I’m wondering if some of the attitude I’m seeing in the comments is indicative of self-fulfilling prophecy when it comes to some of these men’s experiences with women.

There also appears to be a concept of the perfect woman that is being searched for, much like the lost city of gold or the fountain of youth. It’s obviously not present very often today, but I don’t think women like this have ever existed with great frequency. Proverbs 31:10 was written for a reason. That reason is that human nature is wildly consistent and a woman of virtue or character is hard to find. If a man finds one, she’s a blessing from God.

What seems to be much more prevalent is men molding wives into something acceptable much like Ephesians 5 tells us to do in washing her with the Word. This would fit well with Paul’s marriage analogy of Christ and the church. Christ takes us as we are and molds us through sanctification, very patiently I might add, as I have yet to be incinerated by a white hot bolt of lightning. Christ’s patience with us would then be like Peter’s admonition for husbands not to be harsh and live with their wives in an understanding way.

You and I are two examples of men who have molded their wives. I’d add in Deep Strength too, except he appears to have done a good deal of the molding prior to being locked down which hopefully means he’ll be spared some of our more interesting marriage experiences.

Here is a great example of what that molding can do.

Think back to our first few emails months ago and what I described. [Editor’s Note: She was argumentative, disagreeable, sexually frigid, and had used almost all the Duluth Model of abuse tactics against me.] Then compare that with this story. This past Friday, I forgot to hide a package that got delivered with gifts in it and the boys found it Saturday morning. Mrs. Apostle had asked me to hide it and I forgot. I made a mistake. I know, I can hardly believe it either. She was upset and brought the matter to my attention before I’d had any coffee and she did it in a slightly snarky, gotcha manner. I gave it about 20 minutes and then calmly told her that I don’t mind her expressing frustration, but how she did it was disrespectful and the gotcha aspect of it is a way that inverts God’s authority order in marriage. I also acknowledged my mistake. She understood what she had done and agreed with me that her approach was off. Then we went about our day.

Is that not an example of what commenters say they are looking for in a wife? You and I both know that did not happen on its own. It took me working on both myself and her, and the Holy Spirit using that to transform her on the inside. My lump of clay was slightly different than yours from an age and carousel standpoint, but you were still able to mold yours significantly when you started using the correct tools for the job.

Am I off base on this?

RPA

Thu, Dec 9, 2021, 11:58 AM: deti to RPA

RPA,

I don’t have a lot of time to delve into this today. Do you mean the comments from Rock, Scavos, et al.? Do you mean the comments of “the girls who felt that feminism lied to them and were so hurt”?

You’re not off base on this. In fact, I had to look hard for what you were talking about. It’s our nature as men to protect women.

A man has to take a woman and make her into HIS wife. Not just “a” wife. HIS wife. And a man has to have some frame to do that, and a woman who is at least willing to step into that frame and allow herself to be molded.

You have a post there, RPA.

deti

Thu, Dec 9, 2021, 12:02 PM: deti to RPA

RPA,

Another thing to bring up in a post like this is just how subtle all this is — We are hardwired to protect a crying, injured, distraught, distressed woman. We are hardwired to leap into Mighty Mouse “HERE I COME TO SAVE THE DAY!” mode for ANY woman in the vicinity who needs help.

Yes, good point about looking for “the perfect woman”. There is way too much romanticism about marriage and how it is supposed to be about:

Women: “I just wanna be a wife and mommy and nest and make babies and have my house and minivan and white picket fence and stuff!”

Men: “I just want the fun sex party train to keep rolling! Let the good times roll! I get to keep this girlfriend I’ve been banging for a while!”

deti

Thu, Dec 9, 2021, 1:11 PM: RPA to deti

deti,

“The girls who felt that feminism lied to them and were so hurt” is part of the bigger picture of a fatalist, reductionist equation that many of the men buy into. It starts with the reality of RP knowledge that certain men have a limited pool of women in which they can fish. This is reality for the majority of men. The next step in the logic is that feminism has screwed up the vast majority of the women in their probable pool so options are even more restricted. For every action a man might take there is a negative reason for why it won’t work and they convince themselves to not even try, which then becomes a 100% self-fulfilling prophecy of not getting married. We have men convincing themselves to not even try, or, they are afraid of trying and use the logic to rationalize their inactivity.

So the woman hurt by feminism is a lump of clay that has been softened for a man already. She needs someone with vision and the right skills to mold her. Lori Alexander was a self-admitted raging [witch with a B] until she repented and became the woman that feminists love to loath. What I’m getting at is that we need to stop looking for the woman of our dreams that exists in completed form and start having the vision to see the potential for what actually can be. Women seem to be able to sniff out men with potential better than we as men sniff out women with potential. It’s because we overemphasize the boner test while underemphasizing key aspects of the character test.

“A man has to take a woman and make her into HIS wife. Not just “a” wife. HIS wife. And a man has to have some frame to do that, and a woman who is at least willing to step into that frame and allow herself to be molded.”

You clearly stated the character test here. It’s not if she’s a perfect unblemished saint that agrees with you on everything (I laughed a little writing that), it’s if she able and willing to be molded by a man. To me, looking back on my relationship, that is the key test during dating and even engagement. By default, if you like each other, you’ll typically agree on most things, but it’s his willingness to enforce his headship and her willingness to yield to it that tend to make it a good marriage or not.

You are correct. There is more to dissect within these thoughts.

RPA

Thu, Dec 9, 2021, 1:32 PM: deti to RPA

This is good stuff, RPA.

Some quick thoughts.

  1. Most of us men aren’t good at sniffing out women with potential because we’re not taught how to.
  2. It is a LOT of work to mold and shape a woman and a lot of us men don’t have the patience for it.
  3. No, I don’t think the woman ‘hurt by feminism’ is softened. She’s been hardened. She has to let God, or experience, soften her. Or, in some cases, like Mrs. deti’s, break her.
  4. A lot of women are broken and damaged. Not just softened. If she’s broken and damaged, there has to be repair and healing first. A lot of men are dealing with broken women. Mrs. deti was broken. Mrs. Apostle was broken, but not to Mrs. deti’s extent.

deti

Thu, Dec 9, 2021, 4:58 PM: RPA to deti

deti,

  1. 1000 x YES! Teaching our sons how to identify the character traits of a virtuous woman, that is moldable, is one of the most important duties for us as fathers. In your case, guiding your daughter to be moldable is included in your mission.
  2. Too many men have neither the patience nor the intestinal fortitude to do this, because once you are married you are playing with real money. I’d say that molding a wife is much like breaking a mustang. There’s commotion, running, kicking, and lots of danger, but once the horse knows that you, the bridle, and saddle aren’t going anywhere no matter what it does, you end up with a pretty good companion that generally does what you want it to do.
  3. Mrs. Apostle broke too, with way more effort, but for very similar reasons as Mrs. deti. Thinking about this further, it might have to be the man that softens or breaks the woman during dating/engagement. This is what laying out the expectations for behavior will do. She’s in or out. She yields her will to his or she doesn’t.
  4. As people, we are all broken to some extent. The question is more of identifying the areas of the damage and then dealing with those well. Every broken aspect of a person is an opportunity to work and come out the other side with a stronger relationship. The key is identifying the type of broken God gave you the gifts to deal with. Me, I can grind things out with the patience of Job. Doing this just doesn’t bother me while this approach can drive other men nuts. Mrs. Apostle is stubborn and headstrong! Her dad told me this when I asked him for permission to marry her. By God’s grace, what I was naturally good at matched up with what she needed fixing and we’ve both been worked on by God in the process.

I think we should present this conversation as a post to Jack with the names and mild profanity edited out. I’d call it “2 Old Farts Talking About Their Wives”.

RPA

Epilogue

If a man is to wait until he can find the perfect wife, he may never marry because the Proverbs 31 wife is exceedingly rare.  What does seem to exist is a wife who can be molded (a process leading to sanctification) into an actual submissive wife — something most of the men would think is a woman that does not exist for them. They key in selection is in identifying a woman’s overall potential as a wife. Of course, a man needs to develop himself and weigh the benefits and risks, but he also needs to be proactive and exercise discernment, wisdom, and whatever charisma he’s been granted.

This entry was posted in Agency, Attitude, Choosing a Partner or Spouse, Conflict Management, Courtship and Marriage, Determination, Discernment, Wisdom, Discipline, Enduring Suffering, Fundamental Frame, Game, Game Theory, Headship and Patriarchy, Holding Frame, Introspection, Leadership, Male Power, Models of Success, Moral Agency, Organization and Structure, Perseverance, Personal Presentation, Persuasion, Power, Purpose, Relationships, Self-Concept, Sphere of Influence, Stewardship, Strategy, The Power of God, Vetting Women. Bookmark the permalink.

16 Responses to 2 Old Farts Talking About Their Wives

  1. cameron232 says:

    Too much friggin work – not worth the effort. I don’t want to mold anyone. If she doesn’t show all the right characteristics as a girlfriend don’t marry her. Yeah, I know they can change after you put a ring on it. If she does, cut her @ss loose. If your religious belief prohibits you from getting with another woman then go MGTOW-monk.

    I don’t want to “work” on a relationship. Life is already enough work. (Thanks, Eve!) The woman should be a refuge from the toil of the world, not more work.

    I’m starting to sound like a hybrid of Jason and Heartiste.

    Liked by 1 person

    • “Too much friggin work – not worth the effort. I don’t want to mold anyone. If she doesn’t show all the right characteristics as a girlfriend don’t marry her. Yeah, I know they can change after you put a ring on it. If she does, cut her @ss loose. If your religious belief prohibits you from getting with another woman then go MGTOW-monk.”

      Instead of “moldable” I’d say that “teachable” is the better wording per my past comments.

      No woman is perfect but a woman that wants to learn and grow and admits her mistakes is going to be a much better potential wife than one that is perfect on paper but won’t follow you or is contentious about things.

      I think a lot of men are looking for the paper characteristics much like a dating profile, but then forgot to hold her to standards (ideally God’s standards) when she is dating or in a relationship with them and become Adam and Eve version 438953213098. Eve starts making the decisions and Adam follows along disobeying God in the process.

      Liked by 3 people

    • Joe2 says:

      I also agree with expressed sentiment. When I read the post, I couldn’t help think about the similarities with buying a used car or a fixer upper house where you are focusing on potential rather than on what you are getting right now.

      A used car / fixer upper house is not perfect and may need anywhere from a little work to a major restoration. And there can be hidden defects which are not known until you begin to correct problems. The amount of work required, the time required and the cost can be grossly underestimated. You may find yourself in over your head and require expertise which you are lacking. As a result, it’s just not worth it especially since the outcome is unknown.

      A woman should be “in sync” with you, your beliefs, leadership, etc. before marriage. Any problems that may arise after marriage would then need only a minor correction which can be easily accomplished.

      Unless you can find such a woman; don’t get married.

      Liked by 2 people

  2. anonymous_ng says:

    @RPA – “But when I looked at my own marriage, I realized that my wife was definitely far from perfect when we married. According to the standard vetting advice that is now available on the sphere, she wouldn’t have passed. But yet, that didn’t stop me from marrying her. It’s been a long haul, but over the past year, she’s become a worthy wife.”

    — Well, I mostly agree with the expressed sentiment. My ex put up with a lack of leadership and a lot of immaturity on my part before finally throwing in the towel. If I knew even five years before she decided we were getting divorced and to start sleeping with another man, I could probably have turned things around.

    — That said, there is a story that the actor Earnest Borgnine was married to his first wife for only two weeks because he realized that while a successful marriage takes effort, it shouldn’t be a Sisyphean task, so he dumped her and went and found a woman with whom he meshed well. So,

    Liked by 1 person

    • cameron232 says:

      Yeah maybe that’s a better expression of what I feel than my above comment. Find one you can gel with. If not, don’t commit.

      Like

    • Red Pill Apostle says:

      anonymous_ng,

      The improvement that I needed to do in myself was to move towards biblical headship. When I started I didn’t realize how I needed to improve myself, I just knew that being single was preferable to being married to Mrs. Apostle at the time but I have young sons and they were worth me enduring to keep the family together. At some point along the way I internalized that I was going to insist on what I wanted and needed in a wife and if Mrs. Apostle was not agreeable to that we could end it. This attitude essentially made her blink in the game of headship chicken we were playing. The result is not perfection, but now the norm is that I correct a behavior and she falls in line.

      It is much, much easier to have this type of headship/submission type of relationship if you screen correctly when dating. When I started I already had the sunk costs of 17 years of marriage and 2 kids so my options were to keep the status quo and have the marriage fail (it was going to), actively end it or to try to change it knowing that was the only change of a positive outcome. This is where screening a woman for being moldable is so important.

      Being a husband is a never ending task. There is no way around it because headship means leading, guiding, teaching and directing. The good news is that once you have put in the work of laying the foundation, either by fixing your wife if you are married or by putting the time and effort into dating and screening women, the amount of effort is much smaller.

      Liked by 1 person

      • anonymous_ng says:

        @RPA, I agree with you. I think what I wanted to express is that in the mainstream, no one wants to talk about up front vetting and requirements because that might involve male judgement and discernment, and might also reflect badly on female choices.

        Instead, the trite saying about marriage taking work is used to hide or excuse choosing poorly.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        anonymous_ng,

        I think what you are saying is that “He!! hath no fury like women being held to standards.” 🙂

        Liked by 2 people

  3. catacombresident says:

    I think it’s rather odd how the RP community has such a vast lore about women, and such crappy advice about choosing one to marry. There’s a quiet community of men I’ve encountered who are definitely not Blue Pilled, but warn that the common RP lore is frankly anti-marriage in effect. An awful lot of really good marriages, and good pastoral marriage counseling, approaches the whole thing differently than what I’ve read on most RP sites.

    Like

    • locustsplease says:

      Most pastors know literally nothing about finding a wife. Nearly all of these guys find their wives before the age of 21 with low or no miles which is nearly impossible for the average man. Not a lot of women can take the shame of divorcing the local pastor. Being lucky doesn’t make you good.

      Many of the married men working at my church have the same story. I met my wife when I was 19. I was struggling with faith after leaving my parents control. We got married. I got my own identity in Christianity after leaving my parents and everything was great. The end.

      Like

    • Devon70 says:

      On Dalrock’s site there was a big shot boomer pastor that said young men shouldn’t care about their appearance because that was feminine and shouldn’t go to the gym because that was gay. For young men that want to get dates this is the worst advice you could give them. It’s okay for the boomer pastor to become a fat slob but young men that follow this advice will be incels.

      Like

  4. feeriker says:

    “…RP lore is frankly anti-marriage in effect. An awful lot of really good marriages, and good pastoral marriage counseling, approaches the whole thing differently than what I’ve read on most RP sites.”

    A big part of the problem is the dearth of even mediocre marriages and pastoral marriage counseling; “really good”, especially in pastoral marriage counseling, is so rare as to be almost unheard of. Most such counseling is actually toxic, accelerating the implosion of marriages already at risk. This is why RP “lore” and advice often comes across as fatalistic. It’s just the reality on the ground as it is.

    Liked by 1 person

  5. redpillboomer says:

    The Red Pill community focuses primarily on the SMP, and when it comes to the MMP, the community seems to focus primarily on the inherent dangers of marriage–leaning Black Pill, if not entirely Black Pill about it. In my mind, we need some deeper thinking in distinguishing yesteryear’s and today’s SMP from yesteryear’s and today’s MMP (occasionally referred to as Marriage 1.0 and Marriage 2.0).

    I tend to believe we currently have quite a bit of residual thinking/overtones from yesteryear’s (1950s-70s) SMP and MMP mashed up with today’s realities in the SMP and MMP. For example, dating today is NOT like it was back in the 1950s-70s, it is something altogether different, and in many cases VERY different–dating apps, hooking-up the first date, etc. I think we’ve done a fairly good job in the sphere identifying this. Marriage too is different today, although God’s rules/laws/constructs for male-female relationships still function well no matter how far into the background current culture tries to shove it. I think RPA, Deti, and Jack are working through what ‘Marriage 2.0’ should look like even today if God’s rules/laws/constructs are applied, but they are also keeping in mind current cultural context’s like feminism and feminist effect has had on women’s thinking about relationships with men and marriage.

    What I think I’m getting at, is it might be of service for us ‘Old Farts’ to think this all the way through so we can mentor the young men of today as to how they MIGHT (maybe, hopefully, fingers-crossed) effectively navigate the current SMP seguing into the MMP if that’s what they desire. Sometimes I’ll do a little thought experiment with myself that goes something like this, “If I was in my twenties again and marriage minded (at some future point), how would I go about navigating the current SMP and MMP? How effective could I be given that it seems so different from the SMP and MMP I had back in the 1980s?”

    It’s not totally different since biology is still biology, but the circumstances surrounding it seem very different, especially the technologies impacting relationships. It’s a daunting task for young men today, but not impossible. It just seems to be the margin for error for them is much slimmer than it used to be because the consequences for getting it wrong seem to be more severe. Back-in-the-day, we could get a ‘mulligan’ or two so to speak for getting it wrong until we got it right; don’t think this applies as much nowadays.

    Like

  6. feeriker says:

    “God’s rules/laws/constructs for male-female relationships still function well no matter how far into the background even self-described Christians and their churches try to shove it.”

    FIFY. Everyone expects the secular culture to not only “shove into the background” God’s rules for male-female relationships and marriage, but chuck them out altogether. It’s when Christians and their churches do so that things become orders of magnitude more difficult for both men and women who seek God’s ways in this regard. It’s demoralizing and painful, to put it charitably, when your enemy is not only the world that hates God and his ways, but also the people who should be in your corner, but who have instead thrown in with the enemy.

    Like

  7. info says:

    While unfortunately the “Manosphere” has grifters and charlatans entering it in order to milk the Men within the sphere. It still speaks the dearth of Men who are able to Mentor the Younger Men and Teenagers about Women.

    If only Young Men can be reached out to. Who are constantly up and coming where everything that has happened is brand new to repeat said lessons and add to them generation after generation.

    Blue-Pilled Fathers and Fatherlessness are all responsible for this dearth of Mentoring of Young Men.

    Liked by 2 people

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