Dating in the Lion’s Den: Relying on Faith when the options are daunting

Thoughts on wife selection and wife molding.

Readership: Marriage Minded Men
Theme: Giving the gift of your self to others.
Author’s Note: The contents of this post are the gleanings of an email string between me, deti, and Jack. Jack helped organize and compile the content. Email addresses and real names have been omitted to protect the innocent and mild profanity has been edited, also to protect the innocent.
Length: 1,850 words
Reading Time: 6 minutes

Hopeless Hesitancy

Last Wednesday, deti hit us with a barrage of raw truths in his post, Deti’s Advice to Underqualified Men (2020-12-08). In the comments that followed, the general observation I had was about the pessimistic tone which bended towards hopelessness.

What struck me in reading comments from some of the men is that they mentally eliminate any woman in her late 20’s because she’s done the horizontal tango too many times with other men for their liking. (With the risks involved, I can understand why.)  Then they look at the remaining pool of potential women in their early 20’s and discard them as well, because they don’t see any good ones based on observed behavior. (I think we’d all agree that they’re too entitled, flighty, indignant, emotionally immature, and cling to feministic attitudes toward sex, men, children, and family, not to mention the constant obnoxious moxie clichés.)

I recall one regular commenter running through this logical deduction and it struck me as defeatist. This prompted me to bounce my thoughts off deti. A string of emails ensued, and deti urged me to write up my observations in a post.

I used to handle information and make decisions by process of elimination in the same way that the commenter described.  In doing this, I defeated myself before I ever even tried. But I learned to think differently, more faithful rather than factual, through the example of the guy who started the insurance agency I work for. I’ll call him Sam. He always thinks things will work out in his favor and so he tries in spite of not perceiving any good prospects.  It doesn’t always work out the way he thinks it will, but he will adapt mid process and he rarely ever fails.

One day, Sam told me that he’s told other agency owners exactly what he does and how he does it in order to generate the sales volume he does.  I asked him if he was worried about whether the competition might adopt his ideas and thereby ramp up the competition, and he told me he wasn’t concerned at all because they convince themselves it won’t work and so they’ll never even try.

What Sam told me that day about marketing is so applicable to men struggling in the SMP.  I realized that whenever we are faced with a situation in which there are no easy answers, cultivating a sense of vision and purpose is an expression of our faith in ourselves and in God. Being innovative when dealing with unknowns, sticking with it, and rolling with the punches are all part of the process. Success is never easy nor can we think of it as a sure thing. We have to work out our faith. (Philippians 2:12-16; James 1:2-12; James 2:14-26)

So when I see men discarding women who, with the right guidance, could be at least adequate as wives, the defeatism picks a nerve with me. I have the same attitude with my boys too.  It makes me livid when they tell me they “can’t” do something, because I know there is a very real mental barrier constructed in the act of saying, “I can’t”, that limits the realm of what is possible.

Sir Edmund Percival Hillary (20 July 1919 – 11 January 2008) was a New Zealand mountaineer, explorer, and philanthropist. On 29 May 1953, Hillary and Sherpa mountaineer Tenzing Norgay became the first climbers confirmed to have reached the summit of Mount Everest.

Applying Faith by Considering Future Wife Potential when Vetting

What this means for men who want to be married is that, first, they have to be engaged in the challenge of conquering themselves and reaching towards their life’s purpose, and second, they have to be willing to look at woman’s potential to be the wife he wants — a woman who can fit into and support his life’s purpose — instead of dismissing all women because none are exactly what they want from the very start.

When we begin to look at women through the lens of their potential as wives and mothers, then it is obvious that the probability that her sex and dating history might become a hinderance to pair bonding and marital sanctification only increases with her age and experience. Around the CRP sphere, we urge men not to consider women over 25 or past an N count of 2 for this reason, but these are just estimated numbers based on probabilities. IRL, women vary case by case. A 20 year old virgin might have a latent inner hoe tendency that blows up after marriage. A 30 year old single mom ex carousel rider might become a very wise mother and devoted partner. You never know for sure until you open her up. But employing discernment, wisdom, and faith can give you a clue.

All that said, going younger has many potential advantages.

  • The beauty and vitality of youth
  • Longer fertility window
  • Fewer sex partners
  • Less set in her ways
  • Being more apt to adapt to her man

There is also the biological reality that if a man wants a larger family or wants to avoid the increasing risk of birth defects from a higher risk pregnancy, then he needs to go younger. My wife’s OBGYN says various risks start to increase exponentially around 34 years old, and pregnancies over the age of 35 are called “geriatric pregnancies” within the medical field, which gives us a rude idea of the situation.

Yes, there are potential disadvantages of going younger, such as emotional immaturity, impulsivity, not being marriage minded, or being prone to enjoy (too much) the male attention that youth affords her, but between the two options (under 25 vs. over 25), the under 25 class will typically have easier flaws to overcome than the over 25 class.

Since we as men tend to be able to accept reality and adapt to it, then younger is going to be the option with the higher probability of working out the way the man wants. There’s much more potential, but also a lot of work in the moulding and shaping. But the biggest hindrances are in the mind, in forming a vision, and in doing what is required to step up to the challenge.

Men need to Gain an Eye for Potential

The concept that you have to look for the potential in a woman is an important one. Much like a piece of real estate that is undeveloped or poorly organized but which can be renovated into a fantastic space, you have to envision a plan, invest the time, and put in the work to make it into what you want.

In my email exchange with deti, we were getting at how a man can find a woman who can become a good wife. I mentioned to deti that women are better at recognizing potential in men, and he commented that men are not taught to look for potential in women. This is a vetting habit that has been neglected, if not entirely forgotten. Men of late have fallen into the feminine frame of sizing up a potential mate based on the feeelz and performance, especially sexual performance, but thinking this way guarantees that you’ll get a woman who has already been broken in and shaped by other men, and this severely reduces her potential as your wife.

What men need to do is to start assessing women on their character to see if they will stick it out through the change process.  Of course, no woman wants to change herself for a man. They will resist and protest all the way.  But how hard she fights the process depends on her temperament.  If you think of potential wives on a resistance spectrum, the Tingly Respect model woman would be on one end and the raging, man loathing feminist would be on the other.

The interesting part of how God designed marriage and us as people, is that the more a man can mold a woman into the wife he wants, the more satisfying and secure the marriage will be for both.  All the Christian RP ideas and tactics fall under this concept. Tingly Respect, Headship, dread, outcome independence, being dominant, making demands, improving yourself… you get the idea, are all pointing towards molding a woman into being the kind of wife the husband wants.  The better a man can mold his wife, the more she becomes what he wants. The more she wants to please him for the attention and affirmation, the happier he is with her.  God made us to create this positive feedback loop because this symbiotic oneness in marriage secures the union.

Although it is assumed that a woman has to willingly choose to remain with her man, I don’t know if her willingness to submit is necessary.  Deti and I certainly fall much more on the coercion side than the “wife willingly submits” side, unless you count “dragged along kicking and screaming by force of my will or divorce ultimatums” in deti’s case as willing submission.  What seems to matter more is that the wife gets to the point where the feedback loop can work.

Sir Edmund Hillary and Tenzing Norgay on their epic climb.

The Challenge is an Integral Part of the Process

I had another thought about deti’s post that I think is relevant.  His advice for some men to wait until 30 to start dating could contain a fatal flaw, which is that our growth comes from struggle.  The marriage I have now, which is further down the road in the sanctification process, required endurance, faith, breaking, recognizing God’s actual model, and then a ton of work to begin to drag the marriage towards God’s model.  Without the pain, and the faith to endure it, I’d still be buying into the cultural BP “Happy wife, happy life” lie, and I’d still be reading scripture through that frame of mind, and adapting my interpretation of scripture to fit it.  My growth and development came from going through the struggle.

The same is going to be true of men who are not at the top of women’s dating wish list.  Going through the struggle is the honing process that leads to a more refined man.  If a man skips all dating until the age of 30, then he’ll be less experienced and miss the refining benefits that come from enduring the struggle.  He’s already not the physical ideal and on top of that, he’s going to be prone to the mistakes of inexperience.  That’s a harder spot to be in than merely having to overcome not being the hypergamous ideal.

This entry was posted in Agency, Attitude, Building Wealth, Calculated Risk Taking, Choosing a Partner or Spouse, Communications, Courtship and Marriage, Determination, Discernment, Wisdom, Enduring Suffering, Fundamental Frame, Game Theory, Headship and Patriarchy, Holding Frame, Introspection, Male Power, Maturity, Personal Growth and Development, Models of Failure, Models of Success, Moral Agency, Perseverance, Purpose, Relationships, Sanctification & Defilement, Self-Concept, Stewardship, Strategy, The Power of God, Vetting Women. Bookmark the permalink.

81 Responses to Dating in the Lion’s Den: Relying on Faith when the options are daunting

  1. Rock Kitaro says:

    Man… there’s a lot here to process.

    I drafted up an unpublished essay about the benefits of dating a younger woman when I was asked on the radio show about dating someone as young as 18. My boss (an attorney in his 60s) and the atheist co-host (34), ridiculed me about this playfully for a good 30 mins. I tried to tell them that 18-year-olds aren’t a priority, but I wouldn’t rule them out. There’s a lot of benefits to dating a younger woman. There’s cons, too. but more benefits.

    And get this… the Atheist kept asking, “Rock. Do you like intelligent women? Wouldn’t you want a woman with more experience and someone you can talk to on the same intellectual level as you?”

    Somehow, she has it in her mind that I’m looking for my equal in every respect in regards to a spouse. I’m not.

    Secondly, in regards to your points about “assessing a woman’s character…”, if i may ask, what are some solid defenses when you’re accused of being “too selective” or “not tolerant”? Because I get that a lot. And sadly, it’s usually from people who have been in and out of marriage like it’s nothing, or non-Christians who connected with their mates because they indulged in the same worldly lifestyles.

    Liked by 1 person

    • anonymous_ng says:

      I remember discussions on the forums over at Plenty O Fish (dating site) back when I was first divorced. On the discussions surrounding how much of an age gap was too much, I always laughed at the assumption that I have more in common with liberal woman from NYC who is near my age than I would with a conservative woman half my age who grew up in the Midwest.

      Liked by 3 people

    • Red Pill Apostle says:

      “Secondly, in regards to your points about “assessing a woman’s character…”, if i may ask, what are some solid defenses when you’re accused of being “too selective” or “not tolerant”?”

      Rock — Know what you want in life. Then determine what you need from a woman to help you get what you want in life. If she doesn’t have what you need, then there is your defense. In stating your observations this way you change the frame from you being too picky, to you knowing what you want, examining her adequacy for the task, and determining that she won’t be able to give you the help you need.

      Here are some hypothetical examples of what I’m talking about.

      — If you want a house full of kids and she’s a mid-30s career woman, she won’t work for you.
      — If your career requires you to move around the country, but she’s a single mom that has to stay in the area because of custody issues, then that makes her inadequate to be your wife (along with a host of other red flag issues).

      If a woman does not have any character issues and meets the criteria for what you need her to do to help with your vision, then you are into the area of your personal preferences. Here is where a criticism of being too selective could apply and you might want to give thought about what you can and cannot live with.

      Liked by 4 people

    • anonymous_ng says:

      Regarding character, it may be less risky to take a chance on a woman who is culturally Christian, but willing to follow your lead, than on a devout churchian. The first one doesn’t know much, and thus has fewer heresies to unlearn.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Anonymous says:

        “Regarding character, it may be less risky to take a chance on a woman who is culturally Christian, but willing to follow your lead, than on a devout churchian.”

        I agree with your assessment of a “culturally Christian” woman vs. a “devout churchian” as regarding risk. I think we also need to take a look at a “devout true Christian” woman and assess her risk vs. the other two categories.

        No doubt a devout true Christian woman is the ideal because the bible warns about marrying unbelievers. Although a devout true Christian woman is ideal, she can be contentious and cause strife in a marriage unless her bible beliefs and practices agree 100% with yours.

        She may be set in her Christian ways as the result of bible study and years of accepting her denominations practices and teachings. I’ll use tithing, as an example. She may believe that everyone should tithe 10% and you may believe that God loves the cheerful giver and tithing is Old Testament. You would have to convince her why her bible understanding is in error by going over every Old Testament verse about tithing and explaining why its not applicable today. But in doing so, you would be trying to win her over by using logic and making an appeal to her intellect which is at odds with her accepting your lead from her heart. In a sense, she is similar to a churchian.

        Like

    • jvangeld says:

      The atheist is running a shit test. She knows that there are always more girls on the girl tree, but she wants to distract you from that. Because if men in general realized that, her remaining SMV would evaporate.

      Of course, the argument she chose to distract you with is a bad argument. Because intelligence is pretty much innate. You can do things to increase your intelligence a little bit, but mostly the intelligence you are born with is the intelligence level you have throughout your life. So there are a whole lot of 18 year old women who are smarter than she is. And that is the nuclear response to her shit test.

      Isn’t it funny that, in any other context, she would be on the “Yugo girl! Girls are so smart! We need more women in STEM!” train? But when it comes to intersexual competition she disses them all as “those young, dumb ditzes”.

      Wait a minute. Let’s check the chart.

      <img src=”https://i0.wp.com/therationalmale.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/smv_curve1.jpg>

      18 year old women have sky-high SMV compared to 35 year old women. We know this, she knows this. So when a 35 year old careerist cat lady encourages high school girls to study, she is trying to take those high SMV women off the market. To fill their time as much as possible for a few more years at a college far away so that the handful of men who still find her interesting aren’t stolen by the new girls around town.

      And if they take the advice of a single, careerist, cat lady shrike, then they really are as naïve as she thinks they are.

      Liked by 1 person

  2. feeriker says:

    “Somehow, she has it in her mind that I’m looking for my equal in every respect in regards to a spouse. I’m not.”

    Modern feminist women see marriage as a constant battle of “two equals,” not a paring of two people having different roles and abilities that complement each other. Of course, such women are to be avoided like the plague and are generally unmarriageable anyway.

    Liked by 5 people

  3. redpillboomer says:

    Agree with Rock, a lot to process on here, but this is a good start toward generating a conversation on how marriage minded men can get themselves ready for marriage, and avoid as many pitfalls as possible.

    “What this means for men who want to be married is that, first, they have to be engaged in the challenge of conquering themselves and reaching towards their life’s purpose, and second, they have to be willing to look at woman’s potential to be the wife he wants — a woman who can fit into and support his life’s purpose — instead of dismissing all women because none are exactly what they want from the very start.”

    Agree, men have to start with themselves, their personal development, FIRST and FOREMOST; and this should include a reliance on God and a ‘season,’ which will probably take anywhere from 5-10-15 years for Him to work on the man, molding him into a stronger, wiser version of himself than his, say 20 to 25 year old self is/was. And yes, this includes ‘pain and suffering,’ learning lessons through the school of hard knocks, both in life and with women.

    The second part of the quote from the blog (posted above) in dealing with the so-called fairer-sex, lies within the the realm of knowledge, understanding, and the beginning of wisdom in regards to a young man (heck, might as well include the older men as well, because legions of them never seemed to have learned it, EVEN YET) in learning how to deal effectively with ‘fallen Eve.’ It includes all her siren-song allure and the heap of baggage that she typically drags along with her into all her relationships. In other words, learning to vet Eve properly as to which one’s are POSSIBLE (maybe, just maybe, fingers crossed) wife material or future wife material.

    Not an easy thing to learn or do, I’ll admit. As an older man, I can do it now with relative ease and could serve as a possible resource to younger men (aka mentor); however back in my twenties, basically clueless as to where to even start. Well, back then I started where most men start, the boner test. Does she make me hard and do I want to have bedroom fun with her ASAP? Not the greatest way to vet I’ll admit. LOL and SMH! There’s a lot to learn, gentlemen, if one wants to go beyond the ‘fun and games’ side of the SMP and move on over into the MMP side of it.

    Liked by 1 person

  4. joshua4355 says:

    There is wisdom in wanting to become a better version of yourself. You can change yourself far easier than you can change others. Jesus taught to start with yourself, which should be sufficient reason (Matthew 7:1-5).

    And there is wisdom in thinking you may be able to train a woman to become better than she is. But there are two important counterpoints here.

    1) Arrogance. Many men have a tendency to be arrogant toward other men. For example, after a woman has left her first husband, some guys think, “But I am better than that shlub. Sure, he could not keep her loyal, but I am such a superior man, that I can get this woman to be loyal to me, despite her demonstrated failure and weakness in this area.”

    This is a foolish attitude, although many of us engage in it, even if unaware. To bring this to the current topic: Is the woman you are considering inadequate because she had a father who did not try to train her? Or is she inadequate because she rejected her father’s teaching? If the situation is the second, then why should you even try to train the woman? She rejected her father’s teaching for years. And you think that you will come along, and due to your superior teaching abilities / influence / status will magically be able to train her, where her father failed, despite having close to 2 decades of influence? This is arrogant and likely stupid. Recognize that she is hard-headed and save yourself the grief.

    2) Virginity. The OP mentions the attitude that an N count of 2 being acceptable. It is not. A harlot is a harlot. She has learned through experience that having sex with a man and then leaving when life gets hard is the correct path to solving problems. Even in so-called “churches” we do not teach what we should — that a woman who chooses to first be a harlot, and then chooses to marry, is worthy of death. See Deuteronomy 22.

    Don’t settle for a rattlesnake in your bed. She may not bite you the first day, or the second day…..

    Also, something I wish someone had told me a couple decades ago. If you cannot find an acceptable wife where you are, then go elsewhere. Not every culture / country has the same level of female rebellion as ours. Massively better women are available.

    — Do you want to take the easy route and marry a local harlot? Or do you want to do the harder work of finding and marrying a woman of strong moral character, so that you and your children can benefit from having a loyal wife and mother?
    — Do you want a woman that tries to be ugly, cutting her hair, wearing men’s clothing, and eating bad food? Or do you want a woman that tries to be beautiful for her husband, having hair to her waist, wearing skirts, showing self-control with the kinds of food she eats?

    Make your own choice. Do not let our culture push you to accept a harlot, just because 99% of women here choose to be harlots. Do not let someone push you to marry a defective woman. Decide what you want, decide whether what you want is reasonable, and then go find it. Good luck.

    Liked by 1 person

    • joshua4355 says:

      I should add, “not all women are like that”. Sure, I know you can find an exception that chooses to be a good wife, despite previously demonstrating very bad and damaging character.

      I did not marry until I was far older than ideal, and yet I “successfully” have a good wife now. Does that mean I would advise other people to follow my bad choices, just because it worked out sort-of well for me? No. Assuming the same payout for both, it makes more sense to bet on the wager that offers a 50% chance of success than the wager that offers 2%. Look up the Teachman’s marriage risk chart for an example of the risks of marrying one type of woman versus others.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Red Pill Apostle says:

      Joshua,

      “…that a woman who chooses to first be a harlot, and then chooses to marry, is worthy of death.”

      We’re in tough territory if we start down the “being worthy of death” road. Ephesians 2:1-5 reminds us that we were all once dead in our sin, as in spiritually lifeless and unable to move, and God’s grace saved us. I bring this up to say that there is room for God’s beautiful redemptive work in a formerly promiscuous woman’s life. She still may not be worth rolling the dice on for marriage, but we can leave the sticks and stones at home and bring her a cat instead.

      “Do you want a woman that tries to be ugly, cutting her hair, wearing men’s clothing, and eating bad food? Or do you want a woman that tries to be beautiful for her husband, having hair to her waist, wearing skirts, showing self-control with the kinds of food she eats?”

      Be careful with preferences. I like Mrs. Apostle in clothing that shows off her curves like tight fitting jeans or yoga pants. I also like her hair about shoulder length, no longer. If she said she wanted to change it, I’d tell her not to.

      Liked by 3 people

      • joshua4355 says:

        Thanks for writing the OP and the comments RPA. As iron sharpens iron, a good man can sharpen another.

        “We’re in tough territory if we start down the “being worthy of death” road.”

        The “worthy of death” judgement comes from God, not me; see the passage I mentioned. That does not mean your assessment of “tough territory” is wrong though; it feels bad to have to punish someone and to remove their evil influence from society. What loving parent/husband/civic leader wants to punish another?

        But someone far smarter than me says that is what we are required to do. I think God’s ways are best, even if I do not understand many of them.

        With respect to preferences of hair, clothing, and self-control, those are actually not (merely) my personal preferences. (Well, they match my preferences also, but that is a secondary and a far weaker point.) It was my mistake to not provide the basis for those examples of “making herself ugly”; my bad.

        The primary reasons for a woman to wear women’s clothing, not cut her hair, and to exercise self-control (food is not specifically mentioned, but I think it is included in self-control) come from Deuteronomy 22:5, 1 Corinthians 11:1-16, and Titus 2:3-5.

        With respect to your direction for your wife to cut her hair, despite the commands in 1 Corinthians 11:1-16, it is good that your wife obeys you. Sarah lied at least twice, at her husband’s command, and she is held up as a righteous example in 1 Peter 2. I think the responsibility for ordering something contrary to God’s commands will be on the husband, rather than on the wife for her (correct) submission to her husband’s instructions. By obeying God’s command for her to obey her husband, she is doing what is righteous.

        Liked by 1 person

      • feeriker says:

        “We’re in tough territory if we start down the “being worthy of death” road. Ephesians 2:1-5 reminds us that we were all once dead in our sin, as in spiritually lifeless and unable to move, and God’s grace saved us. I bring this up to say that there is room for God’s beautiful redemptive work in a formerly promiscuous woman’s life. She still may not be worth rolling the dice on for marriage, but we can leave the sticks and stones at home and bring her a cat instead.”

        This is true as far as it goes, but sadly, too many people of both sexes have the attitude that “grace” means either never having to own up to one’s past sins (i.e., grace is a given and comes without repentance) or, arguably worse, believe that grace = no temporal consequences for one’s sinful past. Both of these are toxic to and ultimately destroyers of relationships, sooner or later.

        Where men and dating are concerned, the rare jewel to look for in our current dysfunctional MMP/SMP, one that might be just as rare as (if not rarer than) a chaste virgin is a woman who LIVES in genuine repentance of her past sins. Admittedly this is one of those, “I can’t define it, but I know it when I see it” things, but attitude is a major giveaway. There is a palpable difference between the solipsistic and entitled EAP/born-again virgin and the woman who is truly born again in spirit after suffering the consequences of poor life choices and is grateful for every blessing that comes her way in her new life and is not about to put them at risk — especially if she finds a quality man willing to give her a chance in spite of her past. In other words, her attitude is, “He deserves, and can no doubt get a woman so much more deserving than me, but he has settled for me, chosen me above more worthy women, so I must ensure that I remain worthy of him.”

        Rare? As rare as a four-leaf clover, but worthy of attention if found.

        Liked by 4 people

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Feeriker, I think we have an example of what at least one repentant woman looks like in practice. Luke 7:36-50 would seem to be a story of a promiscuous woman who grieved over her sin. That passage paints a pretty good picture of the attitude you describe here…

        “In other words, her attitude is, “He deserves and can no doubt get a woman so much more deserving than me, but he has settled for me, chosen me above more worthy women, so I must ensure that I remain worthy of him.”

        Liked by 1 person

    • Rock Kitaro says:

      When it comes to that “arrogance” you speak of, it’s usually what comes to mind when I consider a woman’s faith in God. Granted, we all make mistakes and fall short. But over the past few years, I’ve had plenty of opportunities with atheists/agnostics/spiritual but not religious/the ridiculously beautiful Hindu women of India/and even ladies who claim to be Christian but celebrate gay marriage and sex outside of marriage.

      But then I think of King Solomon and other men in the Old Testament who married women outside their faiths and we’re led to worshiping false gods and idols.

      Donovan Sharpe was a Red Pill coach I used to listen to back in 2018. He opined that, “Women aren’t religious. They simply follow the religion of whatever dominant man that’s leading them at any given point in their lives.”

      So part of me thinks, “I could be that strong Christian male who can lead a woman to Christ and keep her on the path of righteousness” (to the best of her ability) …but part of me also thinks it’s arrogance. If the alpha, good-looking, wise, super rich King Solomon was led by his women to worshiping false gods… Who do I think I am? It’s not even that I’m worried so much about myself being tempted… but what about our children? I can be friends with such ladies and teach them about Christ, but the covenant of marriage just seems too much of a risk on anyone who at the very least isn’t openly professing their desire to put God first.

      Liked by 3 people

      • Rock Kitaro says:

        P.S… not saying I agree with Sharpe, but that it was just food for thought.

        Like

      • Oscar says:

        “…part of me also thinks it’s arrogance…”

        It’s hubris, and horniness, which is a dangerous combination.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Jack says:

        Donovan Sharpe:

        “Women aren’t religious. They simply follow the religion of whatever dominant man that’s leading them at any given point in their lives.”

        Rock Kitaro wrote,

        “So part of me thinks, “I could be that strong Christian male who can lead a woman to Christ and keep on the path of righteousness” (to the best of her ability)… but part of me also thinks it’s arrogance.”

        Oscar wrote,

        “It’s hubris, and horniness, which is a dangerous combination.”

        I think it is confidence in one’s sexual authority when interacting with those women who are responsive to it, but I agree that for most men who have this kind of sexual authority, it is often expressed lecherously and hubristically.

        In the past, I was very cautious about dating non-Christian women, but to be honest, many of them were more Christian in behavior than women who professed to be Christians. Some of the non-Christian women I dated became Christians a year or two after we dated, and I can only conclude it was due to my influence. This surprised me, because I realized that God works through my relationships to accomplish His will. I also felt regretful about not considering them more earnestly, and that maybe I had rejected some women with good potential because they weren’t Christians (at that time). That’s when I started to realize what RPA is saying about potential.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Oscar says:

        Jack,

        The Bible warns against marrying unbelievers in both the Old Testament, and the New Testament. You’re free to believe you know better, but pardon me if I have my doubts.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Jack,
        I am firmly against dating unbelievers. You might as well date a Churchian. Well, maybe not that, because you get the self-righteous judgment you wouldn’t with an unbeliever, but you know what I mean. Even if they say they became a Christian while you were dating, there is the issue of giving them enough time to show signs of the fruits of the spirit in their lives to verify the faith is real. It’s that important. I can imagine not being able to lean on scripture when correcting Mrs. Apostle’s behavior and it’s not pretty.

        While some unbelieving women may have potential, it is a dangerous game to date one. Your heart might become entangled and now you have a modern day Solomon issue on your hands. You can be friends. I have one non-Christian female friend from high school that was close enough that our families still exchange Christmas cards two decades later, but it never went past friendship … on purpose.

        The warning against dating non-Christians is because women are malleable. If a woman is really into you, she very well may say and act like you would expect a Christian to act. But if she ever loses the infatuation, watch out, because you are not on the same page foundationally.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Jack – I had a clarifying thoughts this morning regarding this part of your comment.

        “That’s when I started to realize what RPA is saying about potential.”

        You are correct in that I am saying to look for potential and not be so quick to dismiss certain groups of women outright. I will add the parameter that if you are breaking a clear biblical command in considering that potential, then this is outside what I am advocating.

        I am thinking more along the lines of a woman who you believe to be one of God’s children who is still wayward in attitude when it comes to being wife material. The Taming of the Shrew comes to mind as an example. I’d liken this to a parent of a high energy child. It’s work to help the child focus their energy productively and hone the skills and abilities God has given them, but with good guidance the child can put all that energy to good use and accomplish quite a bit.

        Yes, I just compared guiding a woman to becoming a good wife to raising a child. No, men should not say this out loud. But I do find it very peculiar how much overlap there is in the process: setting expectations, holding them accountable, getting them to understand they are responsible for the choices they make, upholding the boundaries that protect them from making errors that come with consequences they would not be able to bare.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Oscar says:

        @ RPA

        “I am thinking more along the lines of a woman who you believe to be one of God’s children who is still wayward in attitude when it comes to being wife material. The Taming of the Shrew comes to mind as an example.”

        We also need to be clear that it depends on how much risk a man is willing to take. A man is free to take a risk on a reformed harlot, like Caleb did with Rahab (Matthew 1:5), but he’s not required to, and he needs to have a clear picture in his mind of the risks he’s taking.

        The problem is that most pastors and churches today deny that there is any risk in marrying a reformed harlot, or even worse, claim that men are required to do so.

        I’m looking at you, Mark “How Dare You!” Driscoll!

        Liked by 2 people

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Oscar,

        Those are good thoughts with much wisdom behind them. That Driscoll clip never gets old for me, for the pure unmitigated delusional hubris of it all.

        Liked by 1 person

    • Jack says:

      Joshua4355 wrote,

      “Do you want a woman that tries to be ugly, cutting her hair, wearing men’s clothing, and eating bad food? Or do you want a woman that tries to be beautiful for her husband, having hair to her waist, wearing skirts, showing self-control with the kinds of food she eats?”

      Personally, I think it’s better to find a woman (before marriage) who doesn’t try to be beautiful or ugly. I think appearance is one area that offers a good example of what RPA means by potential. Single women who make excessive efforts to be beautiful are usually fishing for attention and are motivated by hypergamy. Also, if she’s quite skilled in painting her face, then she’s already reached her potential. Single women who try to be ugly are either ashamed of themselves for some reason, or they are butch feminists with bad taste.

      In my experience, appearance is one of the most easily moldable traits in a woman, probably because they’re very conscious of it and the attention it brings them. If you go shopping with them, then you can pick out what you want her to get and she’ll usually agree. If you buy clothes for them that you like, then they’ll wear them. If you say you like gold (or whatever color) fingernail polish, then they’ll be wearing it the next time you see them. And so on and so forth.

      I’ve had at least three girlfriends who let their hair grow longer simply because I said I liked it that way. One of them had shoulder length hair, and I told her she would be more beautiful if she let her hair grow longer. To my utter astonishment, she didn’t cut her hair again for the next 4-5 years! It was getting to be waist length by then! Eventually, she gave me a long apology with stories about coworkers who made negative comments about her long hair and asked me if she could cut her hair a little shorter!!! Other girlfriends resisted my requests for long hair in the beginning, giving out excuses like, “It’s too much work to care for long hair”. But after a while, they stopped cutting their hair.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Oscar says:

        “In my experience, appearance is one of the most easily moldable traits in a woman, probably because they’re very conscious of it and the attention it brings them.”

        Explain that to a man who married an attractive woman who transformed herself into a womapotamous. Go ahead. I dare you.

        Like

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Oscar,

        I’ll take that dare.

        First, he probably didn’t directly say anything to his womapotamus (passive aggressive comments don’t count because they are domineering, not dominant). Second, he probably did not do anything to make her change her ways … married dread game anyone? Third, he let himself go a little which takes the pressure off her. Forth, ice cream is just too tasty.

        If a man cannot accept a hippo for a wife, then he needs to carefully contemplate the lengths he is willing to go to change his situation. If his wife calls him on it in any way and he can’t find it within himself to remedy the situation, he’s lost the game of chicken with his wife. He will now live in subjugation under his womanopotamus and that is an uncomfortable place to be.

        Liked by 3 people

      • Oscar says:

        @ RPA

        A man can tell his wife what he prefers before they get married, tell her directly and unequivocally what he prefers after marriage, stay in shape himself, and if she still doesn’t want to lose weight, she won’t. I know, because I’ve seen it.

        As for “married dread game”; it’s a lie. I’m not saying it won’t work. I’m saying that, whether it works or not, it’s still a lie.

        Did you say “forsaking all others”, and “till death do us part” when you got married? If so, then did you mean it? If you meant it, then you won’t cheat on her, or leave her. If she knows you meant it, then it doesn’t matter how much “dread game” you play on her, because she knows you won’t cheat on her, or leave her.

        If you didn’t mean it, then you’re a liar.

        So, were you lying when you said, “forsaking all others”, and “till death do us part”, or are you lying now that you’re threatening her with “dread game”, when in fact you won’t cheat on her or leave her? Either way, you can’t get away from the fact that you lied.

        Now, if you’re cool with that, you’re free to play all the games you want. No one will stop you. But, understand that you’re a liar.

        Women aren’t automatons that you can program, or reprogram with just the right combination of characters to get them to do what you want. They’re human beings, created in God’s image (here we go again), endowed with free will, and moral agency, and fatally corrupted by the sinful nature.

        That means that, just like men, some of them will use their free will and moral agency for evil purposes.

        And, guess what? If she refuses to change, there’s nothing you can do to make her change, just like you can’t make a man change.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        “As for “married dread game”; it’s a lie. I’m not saying it won’t work. I’m saying that, whether it works or not, it’s still a lie.”

        Nope, a man can use dread without going where you took it, as one of his tools to mold his wife. Married dread game can be as simple a man being himself again with everyone. That means talking and joking with men and women both, like he did when he was single, as he refuses to let the wifeapotomus suck the joy out of his life any more, because her contentious refusal to be obedient to scripture can do just that if he lets it. It can be getting in shape again. The whole premise of dread game in a Christian marriage is leaving her behind as he pursues life. She’s welcome to come with him or sit and wallow like she’s doing, but he’s moving forward regardless. The reason that people often scoff when a person tries to improve themselves is that they don’t want to be left behind, and wives are not immune to this part of human nature.

        Now, for hypothetical purposes, say that soft dread tactics that are perfectly OK in a Christian marriage aren’t enough. Does the husband who has been tricked into becoming a rancher with a single livestock animal have to suck it up and accept his fate? Not necessarily. A man still has leverage over his time, his attention, and if this is something she cares about, the appearance of the ideal marriage. This is why a man will have to contemplate deeply what is most important to him, because at this point, his wife has stopped being his helpmeet and is now just another problem he has to figure out how to best handle.

        Like

      • Oscar says:

        RPA,

        “Dread game” is when the man behaves in a way that fills the woman with dread that he’s going to cheat on her or leave her. Otherwise, what’s there to dread? That he won’t give her attention? If she cared about his attention, she would’ve never gotten fat in the first place.

        There is not a woman alive who doesn’t know that the way to get a man’s attention is to make herself attractive to him. Sure, they’ll lie about this (insert “I’m shocked” meme here), but they all know it. The reason we know that they know is that they make themselves attractive to the man before they get married, and because they make themselves attractive to the next man when they plan to divorce the current husband.

        Again, people are not automatons.

        A husband can do everything right, and his wife can still turn into a fat, soul crushing, life draining succubus.

        A wife can do everything right, and her husband can still turn into a beer-swilling, porn-addicted pervert.

        A parent can do everything right, and his/her child can still turn into a drug-abusing dirtbag.

        We can influence people in our lives, but ultimately, that’s all we can do – influence. We can’t help someone who doesn’t want help. We can’t change other people. We can’t make anyone do anything they really don’t want to do (unless you’re willing to use the kind of force that goes way beyond the realm of acceptable Christian behavior).

        People have free will. Even God Himself didn’t keep Adam and Eve – who lived in literal paradise – from using their free will destructively. Thinking we can do that which God Himself didn’t – living in a fallen world, no less – is the height of hubris.

        Like

  5. Oscar says:

    Remember when I said that a man needs to consider a woman’s potential as a wife and mother, and not just what she has to offer right now?

    I rest my case.

    Liked by 6 people

    • Red Pill Apostle says:

      I don’t remember, but I like the sentiment. 🙂

      Since deti is quite correct that we as men do a poor job at recognizing potential in women, what would be the attributes you’d look for in a woman’s character to flesh out her potential?

      Liked by 1 person

      • Oscar says:

        RPA,

        There’s a lot that goes along with vetting, and none of it is a 100% safe bet. The following is a non-exhaustive, off-the-top-of-my-head list that should be considered in a Biblical context. In other words, if she’s not a believer, she’s automatically disqualified.

        How does she react to scriptures about wives submitting to their husbands? Does she submit to, and respect her father? Does her mother submit to, and respect her father? Does she want children? How many? Has the young man vetting her observed her caring for children? How does she respond when the facts of female fertility come up? How does she respond when the young man vetting her tells her that he wants her to stay home with the children, and possibly home school? How does she handle money? Has she made the effort to develop domestic skills?

        Most importantly; is she contentious?

        contentious: exhibiting an often perverse and wearisome tendency to quarrels and disputes

        https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/contentious

        If she’s contentious before the marriage, she’s automatically disqualified. It’ll only get worse after the wedding. And as we know, a man is better off living alone than with a contentious woman.

        https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=contentious&version=NKJV

        Is her mother contentious toward her father? Women tend to take after their mothers, for better and for worse.

        Again, there’s a lot more, and there are no guarantees, but I think that’s a start.

        Liked by 3 people

      • thedeti says:

        “There’s a lot that goes along with vetting, and none of it is a 100% safe bet. The following is a non-exhaustive, off-the-top-of-my-head list…”

        This is a good list, but none of this conflicts with what I said a woman needs to be “right now”, and what men need “right now”. I cannot find the thread immediately as I sit here. But as I remember, what a woman needs to be “right now” is feminine and nice. That’s not “potential”. She needs to be that now. Not 10 years from now, not next week. NOW. If a woman has to tell me she might be able to become feminine and nice, someday, that’s not good enough. She needs to be those things right now.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Oscar says:

        I thought of a few more.

        When she disagrees with the young man, how does she disagree? How does she react to being held accountable for her actions? Is she entitled? Does she behave selflessly? Is she demanding, or manipulative? Is she a hard worker, or lazy? Is she focused, or flighty/flaky?

        I’m sure others can add a lot more.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Rock Kitaro says:

        I have to chime in with what Oscar’s saying here. Oscar mentioned, “How does she react to scriptures about wives submitting to husbands?”

        For me, this is a big deal. Because, I get it… if they’re in the middle of their Christian journey and they just weren’t ready to hear the truth… that’s one thing. However, when it turns into straight up rejection of the scriptures…

        That happened with two recent online dating prospects. And I really hate to make it racial, but in the Black Community, there’s a stereotype (of many) about why some black men date outside their race. It goes, “with white women, the more masculine you are, the more feminine she becomes. However, with black women, the more masculine you are, the more masculine she becomes to get up to your level and challenge you.”

        With the two recent dating prospects, both were coincidentally 26, black, and pursuing careers in the medical industry, while claiming to be God-fearing Christians… However, when we talked about Feminism and Wives Submitting to their husbands… they gave me a whole lot of push back to the point where they were trying to shame me for simply quoting the scriptures and believing in them. As in, “How dare you hold on to those old beliefs. Don’t you know modern day Christians can pick and choose what they want from the Bible?”

        That level of defiance, where there’s so much acrimony and resentment where it shouldn’t be… if we haven’t even gotten married and there’s all this friction about living by Christ’s standards… I don’t even want to imagine what it’ll be like the day we have a son who comes home one day in the 5th grade and decides he wants to be called Madeline.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Oscar says:

        RK,

        “However when we talked about Feminism and Wives Submitting to their husbands… they gave me a whole lot of push back to the point where they were trying to shame me for simply quoting the scriptures and believing in them.”

        Others may think they’re “alpha” enough to tame that shrew. I’ll pass. And I’ll advise my boys to pass. Not worth the risk, or the years of misery.

        Liked by 2 people

    • thedeti says:

      OK, consider potential. But she also has to offer something RIGHT NOW.

      You can’t be all “right now”. You can’t be all “potential” either.

      Like

      • Oscar says:

        Well, yeah. The same goes for a woman vetting a man. Both need to offer a combination of past track record (that list is going to be pretty short, if they’re young), current assets (again, pretty short list, if they’re young), and future potential.

        Unfortunately, for most young people, potential will be the bulk of what they have to offer. I say that’s unfortunate, because potential is a lot more difficult to judge than an established track record.

        Like

  6. RichardP says:

    Adam’s father saw that it was not good for him to be alone, and so created a help, proper and fitting for him. Meet is Old English for Proper and Fitting. In the context of this discussion, it is important to remember that that phrase was applied to the wife that Adam’s father created for him.

    Point 1 — God could have created anything / anyone to be Adam’s wife that he wanted to, and so he did. It is also important to remember that that truth was applied to the wife that Adam’s father created for him. God could have created anything, and he created a “help” for Adam that would force him to choose between her and God. God knew that before he created Eve, and created her anyway.

    The takeaway from this Point 1 has to be that God did not desire perfection for Adam. He created a help for Adam that would cause him to struggle. He could have created Eve differently, but he did not. For the young guys just starting out, or the old guys looking back, it is vitally important to recognize the truth of this Point 1. A “help” created for Adam that forced him to choose between her and God has the phrase “proper and fitting” applied to her. That struggle is what God wanted, even if it is not what we want. I won’t look for the verse citation, but there is a spot in the New Testament which talks about Jesus, identified as the final sacrifice for Adam and Eve and their children. Identified from before the foundation of the world. Before God created Adam and Eve, he identified the solution to the problems that he was going to create Adam and Eve to struggle with. Someone upthread properly identified the condition that God intentionally created for the folks who inhabit this present creation — a struggle, apparently designed to bring all of us to the point where we call out, “Please God, help. I cannot do this by myself!” But that thought is counterbalanced by the statement in the New Tesament that no man can say that Jesus is Lord of his life without the help of the Holy Spirit.

    Point 2 — At what point did Eve, the one described as proper and fitting for Adam, decide there were benefits to be had from disobeying God? Before she approached the forbidden tree? Or after she bit into the forbidden fruit? (Do I really need to provide a hint here? What was it that encouraged Eve to even approach the tree? And don’t answer with “serpent”.)

    When considering the points raised in Point 1, consider this; God said of himself…

    Isaiah 46:9-10 (NIV)
    I am God … I say ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.’

    Isaiah 45:6-10 (KJV Paraphrased)
    I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things …  Who are you to question who I am and what I do? Does the clay question the potter about what he is making?

    We were created for God’s benefit.  He was not created for our benefit. Because this is true, our understanding of what is happening to us in the struggle may be way off track — because who can know all of the mind of God, particularly regarding why he created us (each individual taking up that thought individually, not collectively as a society).

    Point 3 — The pure in heart at age 18 can become corrupted at age 40. The corrupted at age 18 can become pure of heart at age 40 (assuming a genuine conversion and the washing away of sin’s stain). There is nothing any of us can do to control that (no one can say that Jesus is Lord of their lives without the help of the Holy Spirit). Honoring God by choosing the 18-year-old who is pure of spirit is not really honoring God. Because doing that proves that we are not really believing and acting on what God actually says in the Bible What is true of this moment is not necessarily what will be true 23 years from now. We have all sinned (and will sin) and come short of the glory of God. Paul, after his encounter with God on the road to Damascus says, “I still do what I know I shouldn’t. And I still don’t do what I know I should.” If that is true of Paul, personally grabbed by God, why do we believe it is not true of us? Why do we think it is not true of the pure 18-year-old girl we might choose? Why do we think marrying a pure 18-year-old girl guarantees we will have a spiritual future that is free of strife?

    Point 4 — If everybody sins, if Paul can’t get it together either, then focusing on the spiritual when choosing the one who will be fitting and proper for us should be done by considering levels other than just the spiritual. That sounds like heresy. But reread this Point 4 if you need to: Adam’s father did not give him a wife who would guarantee a spiritual life together that was free of strife. Paul couldn’t keep it together, even after a personal encounter with God. God identified the final sacrifice, needed because of what Adam and Eve and their children would do, even before he created Adam and Eve.

    Point 5 — This thread, and others around the Christian Manosphere, lean heavily on what we suppose God wants / requires from us (not a criticism here). That leaning presumes that we actually know the mind of God for any given individual. We don’t. But we can know that God knew each of us would need a final sacrifice, and knew it before he created any of us. Before he created any of us, God knew that Paul would say what he did (stated above), in spite of having had a personal encounter with God. Before he created any of us, God knew that each of us could not make him Lord of our lives without the help of the Holy Spirit. And God knew that we would not reach out to that Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit would have to reach out to us – because the natural man, all of us, are dead in trespasses and sins, and do not perceive Spiritual things. How can we reach out to the Holy Spirit to help us when we do not perceive that he exists?

    Because of what is written in the previous paragraph, none of us can guarantee that the stars will all be in alignment if we will only vet properly and choose the “correct” girl for wife. To believe that we can do that is to disbelieve all I’ve said in this post.

    What we are left with is mainly in the natural:
    — Know what women respond to (with the understanding that these things probably change, depending on personality type).
    — Know what has been demonstrated regarding the ability for a woman to bond when she has had multiple sexual partners.
    — Know that men and women think differently.
    — Know that, because they think differently, they approach moral reasoning from different points of view. Therefore, women will exercise their agency different from men.

    When a man educates himself about these points, he can make a more informed choice about things in the natural. But a man cannot make a perfect choice, either in the natural or the spiritual. If he could, we would not need the final sacrifice or the Holy Spirit.

    For the young guys, go into marriage with all of these thoughts in mind. God does not assume you will make a perfect choice, because a perfect choice implies no struggle. And no struggle probably means that we will not ever get to the point where we recognize our need for the final sacrifice. No struggle probably means we won’t ever get to that point where we cry out, “Please God, help me. I can’t do this by myself!” But then, if the natural man cannot perceive spiritual things, we probably won’t ever utter that cry without the help of the Holy Spirit.

    Now, apply all of these thoughts to the spouse that is treating you so badly. These thoughts apply to that spouse in the same way they apply to each of us. Rebuking someone operating out of the natural man, that state which is unable to perceive spiritual things, is going to be a sterile effort if the Holy Spirit is not opening that someone’s eyes so that they might perceive spiritual things.

    And that’s the part that really sucks, particularly for those raised in the church who were taught to believe that we can bring people to Christ Look closely at what God actually says in the Bible and you can see that that statement is not true. We can teach them what God says in the Bible. But only the Holy Spirit can open someone’s natural eyes so that they might perceive spiritual things.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Oscar says:

      “If that is true of Paul, personally grabbed by God, why do we believe it is not true of us, true of the pure 18-year-old girl we choose – because she guarantees we will have a spiritual future that is free of strife?”

      I’ve never heard anyone argue that choosing a “pure 18-year-old girl… guarantees we will have a spiritual future that is free of strife”.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        “I’ve never heard anyone argue that choosing a “pure 18-year-old girl… guarantees we will have a spiritual future that is free of strife”.”

        I resemble that remark! I am Mrs. Apostle’s one and only, and she turned 22 a couple weeks before we wed. Those facts did little to nothing to limit the strife her contentiousness caused. The most they did was stop her from comparing me to anyone else, which I can imagine would have been all sorts of fun to have her bring up in an argument.

        Like

  7. RichardP says:

    My apologies. I forgot that paragraph numbers don’t work on this blog. Hopefully you can get something out of that post without the paragraph numbers.

    There is a sentence in there that reads True of the pure 18-year-old girl … That should read Not true of the pure 18-year-old girl …

    Like

  8. thedeti says:

    Well, I didn’t say, “Don’t date until you’re 30.” I said don’t get serious with any woman until you’re 30.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Red Pill Apostle says:

      I would say that whether it is “don’t date until you’re 30”, or “don’t get serious with any woman until you’re 30”, the logic still applies. We practice the way we want to play. So if you are under 30, still date seriously, especially if you don’t consider yourself to be in the top 20%. Here are my reasons for being serious about a woman, or women, and by serious I mean enjoying each other’s company while keeping a critical observational eye out for those characteristics you want in a wife. This also means if you see qualities in a woman that disqualify her, you dump her.

      I didn’t date seriously until I met Mrs. Apostle and I was too inexperienced to pick up on the potential issues. I may still have married her but I’d have done a lot of the work I eventually did up front. Critical experience matters and casual dating won’t give you the experience you will need when evaluating a woman auditioning to be an actual biblical wife instead of the old ball and chain.
      Dating seriously means you are evaluating whether she works for you. This is the correct power balance balance between men and women. The attitude that will come from this process will also make you appear more attractive in general.
      The more women you get to seriously evaluate, the higher the odds that you find one that will suffice as a wife. Proverbs 31:10 lets us know that a decent wife is hard to find, so don’t waste time.

      Solomon was writing about difficult contentious women in Proverbs 2000+ years ago, so what we’re witnessing now is not a new phenomenon. The current female demeanor as a whole is culturally less checked than it has been in the past few centuries, mainly because weak men (hello Adam) allowed feminism (hello Eve) social and political power in the 1900s, but we’re still dealing with the nature of women, which appears to be quite consistent. Any man looking for a wife will need to be wise as a serpent and he’ll need the steady demeanor that comes from experience.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Oscar says:

        “Solomon was writing about difficult contentious women in Proverbs 2000+ years ago so what we’re witnessing now is not a new phenomenon.”

        Amen! As I’ve said before, if female contentiousness wasn’t a big problem 3,000 years ago, the Holy Spirit wouldn’t have inspired King Solomon to write so many warnings about female contentiousness. It’s true that modern American culture encourages, and rewards female contentiousness in ways that it didn’t in the past, but that doesn’t mean female nature has changed at all.

        I saw this feminist meme that said that the Bible has to command women to be submissive to their husbands so many times (five epistles written by two apostles), because submission doesn’t come naturally to women.

        I thought, no kidding, Einstein!

        But, as I’ve also said before, feminists are more honest about Biblical submission than churchians are.

        Liked by 3 people

      • redpillboomer says:

        “I would say that whether it is “don’t date until you’re 30” or “don’t get serious with any woman until you’re 30” the logic still applies. We practice the way we want to play. So if you are under 30, still date seriously, especially if you don’t consider yourself to be in the top 20%.”

        I can relate to this part, “don’t get serious with any woman until you’re 30.” As I’ve written about on my earlier posts, I did try to get serious in my twenties and it didn’t work out. The dating part was good, the serious part wasn’t.

        I had a four year LTR with one woman, that turned into a long distance relationship after the first year, and it didn’t work out for me. Why? I wasn’t ready for something serious in the first year of the relationship (I was 25, she was 20) because I hadn’t developed myself enough yet to have one. By year four (I’m now 29, she’s 24), I was ready, and probably had moved into the top 20%, but that was looks, build, career, and money-wise, but not yet in wisdom and understanding of female nature-wise. Why? I hadn’t been taught to vet properly. Where I would have found this teaching at the time, I have absolutely no idea. No Manosphere at the time, and no men close enough to me to teach me anything useful regarding relationships.

        The key problem in my vetting was this line of reasoning I had going on at the time with her, or any other woman for that matter: Did she pass the looks test? Figure test? Turn me on test? Like to be with her test? Church going girl test? Check-check-check-check-check. Did she pass the wife material test? No way; although I couldn’t see that until it finally smacked me in the face hard, i.e. I was dumped. Why not wife material? Churchian, carousel riding with an ever increasing N-count, following the feminist life script (career, travel and ‘fun’ first before even thinking about marriage), contentious when pressed, and not submissive…. and yes, still going to church on and off.

        So, I agree with the age 30 in principle, but it comes with a big caveat, need proper female vetting knowledge, understanding and wisdom. And, I’d add ‘Red Pill’ awareness of what they’re dealing with in female nature and our gynocentric culture.

        I’ve met too many men now, in their thirties, forties, fifties, and even in their sixties, who are still too blue pill minded to understand what they are dealing with in Eve. Even though the school of hard knocks should have beaten it out of them by now, amazingly it hasn’t. Yes, they have learned a few things along the way, but they still seem all to willing to walk through the current SMP ‘minefield’ with their eyes shut so to speak. I know what a SIMP is, I can put a name and face on them.

        Even though I wasn’t Red Pilled when I was thirty, I got hammered almost simultaneously by the 24 year old and the 29 year old I’ve written about in my earlier posts. It didn’t Red Pill me, but at least the ‘clue bird’ landed enough on blue pill me that I was IN NO WAY dealing with females who were sugar and spice and everything nice, far from it; and that I better walk through this ‘minefield’ with a lot more caution than I’d been doing throughout my twenties.

        I started to vet to some degree, and with God’s help, actually vetted pretty well in finding a marriageable women, a trainable woman. But even with that, the first 5-10 years were still challenging because she wasn’t perfect, no woman is. By not perfect, I really mean there were no major red flags, but she still had a female nature and our society/culture that caters to it. My blue pill mind, not fully understanding headship, or frame as it’s currently called, struggled with her female nature and my blue pill thinking on what to do about it. However, at least it wasn’t the 24 or 29 year old, I shudder now to think what it would have been like to married to them. I know what it would have been like: Hell on earth! While cliché, it still is a pretty apt way of describing it. Of course, I wouldn’t have been married to them 32 years later, no question. I’d have been divorced, probably by them, and lost half my stuff in the process and maybe half my mind or more.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        redpillboomer,
        Your 4 year relationship is exactly what I am talking about. You were serious enough about her to stay for FOUR years. You made mistakes and without having anyone to mentor you, felt your way through the process. You ended up dumped and wiser for the entirety of your experience.

        “Even though I wasn’t Red Pilled when I was thirty, I got hammered almost simultaneously by the 24 year old and the 29 year old I’ve written about in my earlier posts. It didn’t Red Pill me, but at least the ‘clue bird’ landed enough on blue pill me that I was IN NO WAY dealing with females who were sugar and spice and everything nice, far from it; and that I better walk through this ‘minefield’ with a lot more caution than I’d been doing throughout my twenties.”

        My guess is that the four year relationship that didn’t work out, gave you the experience you needed when the real thing came along. Essentially, skipping purposeful or serious dating in your late teens and early 20’s, eliminates the try-fail-learn sequence that we as humans all endure. There is a growing body of research on the detrimental effects of helicopter parenting on children, because shielding children from risk and failure also shields them from very important growth and life lessons.

        Liked by 1 person

  9. This is the similar to he FAST model that RPC uses and that I’ve talked about a few times on my blog.

    FAST – faithful, available, saved, teachable

    FAS are pretty obvious ones for a Christian.

    Teachable being the most important one in terms of developing into a potential GF, wife, and mother.

    Ideally, if there’s potential attraction and interest between the two of you, you should start to teach her right away through Bible studies, discussions, and such. See her character and how she responds. Through this you can not only vet her background but also see if she can leave more and more of the world behind and accept more and more of not only what being a Christian means but being a potential gf and wife (e.g. her trusting you and following your decisions).

    It’s true that a certain women might not be teachable for you, but may be much more teachable to another man too. The big thing is to not get caught up and get butthurt if some women don’t fit because not everyone will. Also allows you to practice good leadership skills.

    Liked by 4 people

  10. Oscar says:

    Off Topic: Elon Musk gets it (this time).

    Business Insider: Elon Musk says there are ‘not enough people’ and that the falling birthrate could threaten human civilization (2021-12-07)

    “I think one of the biggest risks to civilization is the low birth rate and the rapidly declining birthrate,” said the father of six at the Wall Street Journal’s annual CEO Council.”

    “And yet, so many people, including smart people, think that there are too many people in the world and think that the population is growing out of control. It’s completely the opposite. Please look at the numbers — if people don’t have more children, civilization is going to crumble, mark my words,” he said.”

    Catch up, slackers!

    Liked by 2 people

    • cameron232 says:

      Might be too late for a 9th – might be too old but who knows.

      Like

    • feeriker says:

      “And yet, so many people, including smart people, think that there are too many people in the world and think that the population is growing out of control. It’s completely the opposite.”

      I think Elon overestimates the number of “smart people” inhabiting the planet. Like so many others are wont to do, he affixes the label of “smart” to people whose behavior clearly proves that they are no such thing.

      Speaking of Elon, while I’m no fan of his, he does appear to be belatedly awakening to certain socioeconomic truths. However, as evidenced by his history with women, he is a man still in desperate need of a Red Pill education (I sincerely wish, for his sake as well as his child’s and humanity’s, that he had gotten this education before he reproduced with the hideous, batsh!+-crazy monstrosity that is the mother of his child).

      Liked by 2 people

      • Oscar says:

        “I think Elon overestimates the number of “smart people” inhabiting the planet. Like so many others are wont to do, he affixes the label of “smart” to people whose behavior clearly proves that they are no such thing.”

        I think a lot of these smart people are evil. Bill Gates, for example, is a highly intelligent man. He’s obviously good enough at math, and web searches, to arrive at the same conclusion as Elon Musk. Heck, I’ve been talking about this since the early 2000s, and I have less information available to me than Bill Gates does.

        Despite all that, Bill Gates, and many others, want to depopulate the world. They want to reduce the human population to 500 million, from its current 7.7 billion. That means that they want to kill a minimum of 7.2 billion people.

        That’s not dumb. That’s evil.

        Liked by 2 people

      • cameron232 says:

        @Oscar, Gates has no gonads. Given his frame, i.e. no God, no Christianity, his population reduction efforts should include eugenics. But there’s no evidence they do.

        Most people don’t have the b@lls to be real atheists so they retreat into alternative religions (woke Gaia worship or whatever) when they abandon traditional religion.

        Like

  11. locustsplease says:

    I kind of fit in this bracket. My list of automatic disqualifiers has disqualified everyone. I’m in it for the long haul and I’m prepared to be single until I die. I’ve tried a reformed party girl and cannot suggest it for anyone. They will always miss the streets. Leave them there. After reading this, I thought I knew a few reformed party girls who successfully settled down. But as I went further, I realized they only did so when they had to, e.g. ran out of time, pregnancy, “need a provider now” situations. I cannot call that reform.

    This is like following probation. You’re not doing it because you want to live this way. You are doing it to avoid punishment and glamorize the fun you had. The women are taught this, “Go do whatever you want and there will always be a schmuck waiting for you.” These women who stick the landing are not teaching girls to do any differently.

    My biggest problem is, the church I attend has plenty of attractive young women and I get nearly no chances to meet them. They stick together and only attend youth and college groups. I couldn’t even tell you how many married couples I’ve met and old people attending church groups. What really sucks is that I get flirted with constantly outside of church and have to gently turn down their advances. They are all young and attractive. I refuse to online date.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Oscar says:

      “My biggest problem is, the church I attend has plenty of attractive young women and I get nearly no chances to meet them. They stick together and only attend youth and college groups. I couldn’t even tell you how many married couples I’ve met and old people attending church groups.”

      Have you considered asking one of those couples to help fix you up with one of those attractive young women?

      Like

      • feeriker says:

        “Have you considered asking one of those couples to help fix you up with one of those attractive young women?”

        If LP’s church is like most others, that request would met with the same reaction as if he’d asked them to sell him a child or commit a contract murder.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        locustsplease,

        This is one of those cases where boldness and confidence are your friends. Use some social savvy of course, it’s helpful if you know the couple you approach and they know you, but the worst that can happen is they say no. They may actually do what you ask, so be prepared for that outcome.

        Here is the approach I would use to increase your odds of getting what you want. Once you know the specific girl or two (and the specificity is important because it shows you know what you want), pose the question as a request for the married couple’s help. People generally are willing to help others and if you pose your request to them because you value their advice, then your odds will go up because you’ve stroked their egos. if this is successful, then you just have to wait for Oscar’s old adage that married church women often like to play matchmaker.

        Like

    • Joe2 says:

      “This is like following probation. You’re not doing it because you want to live this way. You are doing it to avoid punishment and glamorize the fun you had. The women are taught, “Go do whatever you want and there will always be a schmuck waiting for you.” These women who stick the landing are not teaching girls to do any differently.

      Pastors do that all the time by inviting some young college graduate who was into partying, drugs, premarital sex, alcohol, etc. to give a testimony at an evening service on how God has shown them the error of their ways and changed their lives around. As part of their ministry, they may even go on a speaking circuit to various churches to spread their message to the young people.

      The reality is, the message that is heard is that “I had a great time while in college and turned out O.K. And I’m also getting paid to speak to you about my bad behavior.” So rather than it being a deterrent to such behavior, it may actually encourage it.

      Like

      • feeriker says:

        “The reality is, the message that is heard is that “I had a great time while in college and turned out O.K. And I’m also getting paid to speak to you about my bad behavior.” So rather than it being a deterrent to such behavior, it may actually encourage it.”

        Yup. That’s why the most effective speaker to convey the message that living a hedonistic and carnal lifestyle brings nothing but pain and chaos and that only giving oneself wholly over to Jesus ensures salvation is a speaker who is, say, in hospice care dying of AIDS, in prison serving a life sentence for murdering someone in a drug deal gone bad, or who is crippled/disfigured after having been violently attacked by someone with whom they were in a relationship. IOW, someone who has accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior, but who is under no illusions whatsoever that they’re ever going to escape the temporal consequences of their past sinful behavior.

        “Look at me. THIS is what living a life of sin gets you. DON’T BE ME! Let Jesus be your Shepherd, Lord, and Savior NOW, before you make foolish decisions that lead to to you becoming a carbon copy of me!”

        Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Don’t forget the carrot side of the carrot and stick approach. It helps to see what a marriage can be like when a woman actually does what the bible tells her to do as a wife. Pass on any woman that proclaims the “marriage is hard work” BS too. The ideal is a woman who says she obediently did what she was instructed to do (instead of fighting for what she thought she wanted at the time), and now can enumerate all the blessings in her life because of her obedience.

        Like

    • anonymous_ng says:

      I don’t know about anyone else, but despite being very obvious about looking for another woman in my life, I’ve had exactly ONE person even BROACH the subject of introducing me to a friend. A woman from church, perhaps ten years older mentioned that she’d thought about introducing me to a friend of hers, but her friend was in her late 40s and divorced with a couple of kids and she didn’t think I would be interested, which I wouldn’t have been, but it was a nice thought. Noone else even thought that far.

      Either that, or I’m such a dirtbag they didn’t want to introduce me to their friends. IDK.

      Just saying, that’s unlikely to happen often enough to be worth discussing, at least here in the US.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Oscar says:

        “Either that, or I’m such a dirtbag they didn’t want to introduce me to their friends.”

        Or, maybe they don’t know you’d like them to introduce you to their friends. Have you asked?

        Like

    • Joe2 says:

      “My biggest problem is the church I attend has plenty of attractive young women and I get nearly no chances to meet them. They stick together and only attend youth and college groups. I couldn’t even tell you how many married couples I’ve met and old people attending church groups.”

      I don’t understand why you don’t attend some youth and college groups so you can meet them? The young women may be interested in meeting men who fit into these groups. If you are too old or don’t qualify for these groups, well you’re out of luck and just move on.

      Like

  12. Oscar says:

    File this under “women are attracted to men that other men respect”.

    Like

  13. hamg says:

    Hi. I’m a young Christian man about to finish college and start my career. I used to be a clueless pedestalizer, but a painful dating experience led me to the red pill and Christian manosphere blogs about a year ago, and my life has changed as a result. Reading this stuff has helped me trust the Word of God, make sense of my experiences, and grow. That’s my background, though I am leaving out a lot of detail.

    Now I have a question: how important is intellectual agreement on the topics of headship and submission if a prospective wife shows promising behavior? Or how–practically–do you broach the topic to find out what she believes?

    I am realizing that believing what the Bible plainly says about men and women puts you at odds with what 99% of Christians believe. I know one or two girls who are sweet and attractive, perhaps even naturally submissive personality-wise, who would probably go out with me if I initiated, but I have a hunch that they would parrot the typical mutual submission or complementarian sentiments if engaged intellectually on the matter of biblical marriage roles. With someone like this, is it ever a good strategy to date and just act like a leader without saying what you’re doing and see what she does? Or is it best to go in guns blazing and get the hard topics out of the way early with the idea that the bad ones will filter themselves out? Should I not even waste my time unless I already know what a woman believes?

    Just looking for thoughts on some of these practical issues. I really appreciate all the discussion that happens here.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Jack says:

      hamg,
      Welcome to the Christian Manosphere!

      “Now I have a question: how important is intellectual agreement on the topics of headship and submission if a prospective wife shows promising behavior?”

      RPA and I are working on a post on this, but I’ll answer the question briefly here.

      The basic idea is that she doesn’t have to agree, she just has to willingly follow you. Once she starts following, then she’ll eventually come around. All the man has to do is make things clear and demonstrate how things work. Of course, it is much more complicated than this, and that’s why we’re writing up a post on it. So stay tuned for more.

      A few years ago, this was a big discovery in the sphere, put forth by Cane Caldo and Deep Strength of Christianity and Masculinity. Before that time, readers had the idea that husband and wife must be in agreement for submission and obedience to happen, and they had bible verses to back up their viewpoint of course. But the problem with this is that the wife can choose to be disagreeable in order to garnish power. So as long as the husband is trying to get her to agree, she keeps him trapped in circular hamster arguments and he is basically asking for her permission under the guise of “agreement”.

      However, we only explored this in the context of marriage. I don’t think we have explored this in the context of courtship and vetting, but I would guess it works in a similar way. Deep Strength might have some posts about this though.

      Like

    • Red Pill Apostle says:

      hamg,

      “I know one or two girls who are sweet and attractive, perhaps even naturally submissive personality-wise, who would probably go out with me if I initiated, but I have a hunch that they would parrot the typical mutual submission or complementarian sentiments if engaged intellectually on the matter of biblical marriage roles.”

      Without knowing the specific details about these women, I’ll assume from your comment that they are believers and that you think there might be potential there with either of them. Based on those assumptions, this is the type of situation where I would encourage you to not immediately dismiss them until you have taken some time to investigate further to see if there is potential. By potential, I mean that she shows signs that she is willing to follow you, which at your stage in life can be as simple as leading her in bible study. As you lay out biblical truth for her see how she reacts. She may not agree with what the bible says about men and women in marriage the first time she is presented with the idea so it is going to be her reaction to the new info that will be telling. If she is quite argumentative and contentious about the topic the potential probably isn’t there. If she resists but appears to be chewing over what she just read like she is wrestling with it, you might have a woman who you can guide through scripture and could make a good wife because that wrestling with scripture’s truths is often part of the sanctification process.

      Use wisdom as you do this. Be a fun, dominant man that has thought about what he wants in life and how he’ll get it. Always be evaluating her as the relationship progresses for those qualities you will need in a help mate. Never hesitate in ending the relationship if she crosses one of the firm boundaries you have for yourself because if she knows what they are and breaks them anyway, that’s no bueno.

      These are just some of the things I wish I had known when I was your age.

      Liked by 1 person

      • hamg says:

        Jack, RPA, thanks for the responses. Lots here to think about. Sounds like I can look at my initial questions as a both/and scenario in some ways. I think my approach to the headship/submission issue will be a combination of 1) own my role as the man and observe her response and 2) get into the Scriptures with her and see what that turns up. One of the women I mentioned has made it obvious that she is interested in me over the last couple days, so I will probably go ahead and ask her out. As that develops, these comments will be in the back of my head.

        As others have said in these parts, I never would have found this type of advice in church or other Christian circles where I’m from. This is the first post I’ve commented on, but I’ve been reading Deepstrength, Dalrock, and this blog for a year and have picked up a lot. The knowledge has been hard to digest at times, but I’ve been blessed by it as I slowly learn how to practice it, and I’m sure other silent readers have too. Another data point in case you ever doubt that your labor is fruitful.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        hamg,

        “As others have said in these parts, I never would have found this type of advice in church or other Christian circles where I’m from. This is the first post I’ve commented on, but I’ve been reading Deepstrength, Dalrock, and this blog for a year and have picked up a lot. The knowledge has been hard to digest at times, but I’ve been blessed by it as I slowly learn how to practice it, and I’m sure other silent readers have too.”

        When you get to the point of addressing the idea of biblical headship with a woman, remember how much you read and the amount of time it took you to digest the new information and integrate it into your own life. Just like you had not heard red pilled advice from your church and Christian circles, she probably has not heard about submission from hers.

        Liked by 2 people

      • hamg says:

        RPA,

        “…remember how much you read and the amount of time it took you to digest the new information…”

        That’s an important point I hadn’t thought of. It took me months of unraveling before I was able to throw out the presupposition of equality and start accepting the Bible’s teachings as the starting point instead. It was a huge shift in thinking, so patience is in order for sure.

        DS,
        I read your post and left a comment. Thanks for taking the time.

        Liked by 2 people

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