Moral Guidance Based Feedback vs. Sexual Attention

Both are necessary for redemption and sanctification (in marriage).

Readership: Men; Christian Men;
Theme: Agency
Reader’s Note: I’ve finished covering the tangent on how the Meet Cute initiates the Cascade model. Now back to the topic of Agency.
Length: 1,000 words
Reading Time: 3.5 minutes

How Should Christian Men respond to IOIs?

In a previous post, Handling an IOI requires a Miracle! (2020-07-17), I posed the question of how men might respond to IOIs, and what might be a Christian response, instead of the PUA responses that we are used to reading about in the Manosphere.

When responding to IOI’s, what are the choices that Christian men have?

The basic choices are…

  1. Ignore it.
  2. Acknowledge and escalate (presumably to coitus, according to her desire).
  3. Acknowledge and reframe the situation into something redemptive.

There are other choices (e.g. “acknowledge and s1ut shame her”), but I will dismiss these as being unconstructive to the following discussion.

Choice 1 is a miss.
Choice 2 is not a Christian response (unless the woman is your spouse).
Choice 3 is the oft overlooked (if not absolutely esoteric) Christian response.

At the time of writing that post, there were some readers who thought that handling IOI’s in a Christian manner is a preposterous oxymoron. Others viewed it as what I would call a “miracle”. With these sorts of beliefs floating around, it is not hard to understand why it is generally held that Christian men are total losers in the SMP.

But during our recent study of Agency, we’ve gained some new insights about what Choice 3 might look like. I’ll briefly recount the foundations for this insight in the next section, and the following section will present a new possibility.

Relevant concepts from the Cascade Model

I covered how to apply volitional will when dealing with those of the opposite sex in A Volitional Model of Cascade Courtship (2021-11-15). This study answered the question of why Women have sex to influence men (2021-11-10). It is because It’s all about her Ego (2021-11-12). From this study, we learned that women’s motivation is not purpose driven, like a man’s would be, but instead seeks to establish a cascading chain of increasing ego relevancy which takes the following general form.

Feedback –> Trust –> Relevancy –> Humility –> Comfort –> Security

Women see themselves as being responsible for either the success or failure of establishing this chain, even though much of the necessary context lies outside of their control. In fact, it is necessary for her to have the impression that she exercises volitional will in the matter of getting Feedback, or else she cannot make the next step to Trust.

The main point of these posts was that it is necessary for both men and women to understand how women’s cascade of interest operates (i.e. Feedback, Trust, Relevancy, and so on), and to follow a prescribed sequence of steps for a successful courtship. Both are necessary to achieve redemption and sanctification in marriage.

Moral Guidance Based Feedback vs. Sexual Attention

Femmy looked at the Cascade model through the archetypal example of Adam and Eve, and she got the idea that…

“If Adam gave [Eve] Feedback, then the rest of that loop would follow?”

We don’t know the details about how or why Adam didn’t intervene, but either she didn’t confide in Adam until after she made the decision to eat the forbidden fruit, or else Adam stood by and did nothing. Either way, there was no feedback from Adam, and apparently, she didn’t get any immediate feedback from God either. So the chain of…

Feedback –> Trust –> Relevancy –> Humility –> Comfort –> Security

was broken between her and Adam (and God), and was replaced by Feedback, Trust, and so on, with Satan.

Femmy further theorized that

“…since females crave attention/feedback, [then her receiving] moral [guidance based] attention instead of regular [sexual] attention would satisfy that craving and continue positively through the loop for the guy.  […]  If every single guy gave every single female moral [guidance based] attention instead of regular [sexual] attention, wouldn’t it satisfy her craving and result in a positive outcome for the guy by the end of the loop?

But, I see now because of her ego decision at the Tree, she won’t desire moral guidance based attention.

But, I still think it would be a great experiment to see if there would be positive results.

I think there are guys who would try this. I would love to see it done as a social experiment and see results.”

Feeriker et al. agreed.

“That’s a great question, and it would be interesting to see some men try this out. I’m tempted to say, based on observation and experience, that it’s unlikely that most women would exhibit the desired reaction, and would instead respond negatively. Why? Because “moral [guidance based] attention” is aimed at what a woman SHOULD desire for her own spiritual health and wellbeing, whereas the ego-centric attention that most women get from most men gives them what they (think they) desire at the moment.”

Concluding Statements

This is a fantastic experiment, and not one without challenges. To do this properly, men and women should have already completed step 1 of the above cascade (i.e. the Meet Cute). However, I see no reason why men and women cannot change their frame and begin conducting this approach no matter what their station in life.

Note for single men: This approach could be used as a vetting qualification. Namely, is the woman agreeable? Does she respond positively to moral guidance based attention?

Note for married men: Husbands should be giving their wives a balance of moral guidance based attention and sexual attention.

Note for fathers: Fathers should be giving their daughters moral guidance based attention and teaching them to value getting this from men. Fathers should also make their daughters aware that much of the sexual attention they get from their male peers is a cheap substitute for moral guidance based attention.

About Jack

Jack is a world traveling artist, skilled in trading ideas and information, none of which are considered too holy, too nerdy, nor too profane to hijack and twist into useful fashion. Sigma Frame Mindsets and methods for building and maintaining a masculine Frame
This entry was posted in Agency, Attraction, Boundaries, Charisma, Child Development, Choosing a Partner or Spouse, Collective Strength, Communications, Courtship and Marriage, Decision Making, Discernment, Wisdom, Discipline, Fundamental Frame, Game Theory, Headship and Patriarchy, Holding Frame, Indicators of Interest, Inner Game, Introspection, Leadership, Love, Male Power, Maturity, Personal Growth and Development, Meet Cute, Models of Success, Moral Agency, Personal Presentation, Power, Purpose, Questions from Readers, Relationships, Sanctification & Defilement, Self-Concept, Sexual Authority, SMV/MMV, Sphere of Influence, Stewardship, Strategy, The Power of God, Vetting Women. Bookmark the permalink.

13 Responses to Moral Guidance Based Feedback vs. Sexual Attention

  1. anonymous_ng says:

    I’m not sure that I agree with some of the things here, but as my friend who spent time helping disadents behind the Iron Curtain, “Disagree. It’s what free men do.” I like that.

    Since some of the process I learned in the pickup world matches up with the process Jack has laid out, I’m going to detail what I learned here in hopes that it adds to the conversation.

    First, a comment on inertia. One of the pickup gurus from the Project Hollywood days wrote about why a woman may not respond to you later. He told about asking an attractive friend if she was going to meet up with the attractive guy to whom she’d given her number, and she said that she probably would not. She said that she already has plenty of friends, and can have sex any time she wants, so a man has to be enough better than the guys she already has wanting to get into her bed, in order to overcome the inertia. This is probably true of Christian women too.

    From the pickup world:


    — Woman is at the club, lights, music, people, it’s sensory overload. Then, you force your presence to the front of her attention. If she’s completely uninterested, she will know that in seconds. However, just because you aren’t automatically rejected, doesn’t mean that she’s interested, you still have to overcome the inertia of all the other things competing for her attention.

    — This is where the man often has to carry the conversation because she is not yet interested. She is only potentially interested, if you’re interesting, if you bring more energy to things than you take away. If you’re an energy leech, she’s better off turning back to her phone and ignoring you.

    — The hook point. That point at which she’s decided that you’re more interesting than sitting there staring at her phone, and she starts to contribute to the interaction, and starts to want to know more about you.

    — Escalation. If you’re a good conversationalist, you can spend hours with an attractive woman and she’s absolutely enjoying herself, but she’s not thinking about sleeping with you. For that, you have to shift the context into a sexual frame with innuendo and other flirty banter, even trial closes. Here also is where things like invading her personal space, taking her hand, kissing her (or attempting such) comes into play. All of these things raise the sexual tension/temperature.

    — HOWEVER, it’s going to take most women a couple of hours to get comfortable with you, to trust you enough to risk going somewhere private and alone with you. Thus, the comfort phase is one of raising and lowering the sexual tension in order to keep her interested, but at the same time to give her time to reach that comfort level. Here also, leading helps. Suggest that you go outside for a breath of fresh air, and then take her hand and lead her through the crowd, or say that you like this song, and take her hand and lead her to the dance floor, etc. This also is part of comfort, in that it gets her comfortable with you touching her, and gives her some plausible deniability when sex happens because she didn’t make it happen, you made it happen, for her, “it just happened”, she got carried away in the moment, etc.

    — If she’s there by herself, she’s probably (more likely than not) looking for someone to go home with. If she’s there with friends, during the comfort phase, you need to meet the friends, and win them over too until they’re all subtly rooting for you not to screw things up.

    — Eventually, you need to manage the logistics of going someplace private where sex can happen without making it obvious to people around so that she again has that deniability. An invitation to an after-party, to getting some food, to going back to your place to play Mario Cart, etc. These are the kinds of excuses that can get her into the cab.

    — In the cab or car, whatever, the man also has to make sure that the sexual tension doesn’t melt away completely because then she make go back into her logical frame of mind and decide that if she has sex with you, everyone will think she’s a whore, and at this point, there is no countervailing sexual tension to counteract the social conditioning and risk of social judgement.

    — Afterward, depending on your goals, you can kick her out (cad), call a cab (caddish), or take her to breakfast (interested in seeing her again), etc.


    That’s the pickup pull process. Sounds like work doesn’t it? It is, and some of this happens more organically depending on the woman and the man and the situation, etc. But, if you break it down into a process, this is what I was taught it looks like.

    Back to the question at hand, what is a Christian man to do with IOIs? I posit that it depends on the environment and the context.

    I figure that you can escalate up to kissing, but probably not petting without engaging in sin (depending on your personal situation, etc.).

    — A story from a pickup forum: A man said that what he would do with women is a hard push/pull. He would escalate and then pull back claiming his morals/faith/etc. were an impediment to things going further. Then he would reluctantly be drawn back in and escalate again before pulling back, etc. He said that when a woman thinks she is corrupting you from your morals, she feels powerful, and is of course going to sleep with you to finish that corruption.

    I think that a Christian man can escalate and show that he understands social interactions, that he recognizes what he’s doing and shows that he could go further, but makes it clear than his faith is more important than his carnal desires, for some women, this can work.

    Here’s the thing though, if a woman is 24 years old and has decided that her life path is grad school, career, and then marriage at 30, then you’re going to have to be top 10%, maybe top 5% in order to kick her off the “career woman” life script to join you on the “marriage next year” life script. And, even a woman who is marriage minded isn’t going to date you for five years. Think five months.

    That’s how I see it anyway, if you’re a Christian man and you are going out into the dating world, just understand that the entire purpose of dating is to find out is this woman has what it takes to be YOUR wife, and vice versa. If so, then things need to progress to marriage post haste. The modern conceit of dating and being engaged for years only works when everyone turns a blind eye to their illicit sex.

    Liked by 2 people

  2. Sharkly says:

    “He said that when a woman thinks she is corrupting you from your morals, she feels powerful, and is of course going to sleep with you to finish that corruption.”

    Yes, God told us that women are defilers:

    Revelation 14:4a
    These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins.

    Based upon Revelation 14:4, the obvious conclusion is that those men who are virgins until married, still get defiled by women, for they are no longer virgins, thus they are defiled, because those undefiled by women are all virgins, which clearly does not include morally upright married men.

    According to the book of Enoch and other extra-canonical books some of the heavenly watchers were also defiled by sex with women, and thereby were united with women’s uncleanness:

    Enoch 9:8a
    And they have gone to the daughters of the humans of the earth, and they have mated with them, and have defiled themselves with the women.

    Enoch 15:3
    Why have you left-behind the heavens, the highest heavens, the holy place of the age; and fallen-asleep with the women, and were stained with the daughters of the humans; and taken women for yourselves, acting like the sons of the earth; and have begotten for yourselves children, sons which are giants? (4a) But all of you were holy-ones and living as spirits, perpetual. Yet you were stained in the blood of the women, and procreated in the blood of flesh.

    According to that recounting, when even a holy male being becomes one flesh with a woman he takes on her ceremonial uncleanness and is stained by the uncleanness of her blood.

    Ephesians 5:23
    For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

    Husbands are the image of Christ the savior, called to bodily assume their bride’s defilement.

    1 Peter 2:21
    For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: … 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

    Women’s salvation apparently is at least metaphorically linked through the procreative act with her husband, which is also her created purpose, to be a help and mate for her husband:

    1 Timothy 2:15 (NLT)
    But women will be saved through childbearing, assuming they continue to live in faith, love, holiness, and modesty.

    That passage was written well after Jesus Christ had already come and died and risen from the dead and ascended back up to heaven. So it does not refer to anticipating the birth of Jesus Christ. 1 Timothy 2:15 makes it clear that women will, in some sense, still be saved through the procreative act even well after Christ’s salvific work had been finished, assuming they continue to live in holy virtue. Husbands image Christ by taking upon themselves the uncleanness of the defilers bodily.

    Ephesians 5:24
    Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

    Husbands image Christ in the cleansing of their wives, and in assuming the wife’s sins and shortcomings as a burden upon themselves, and her salvation is worked out through her faithfully carrying out her marital duties.

    Ephesians 5:32
    This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

    The husband is not to be reverenced by the wife because he is not fallen, because he is not also a sinner, or because he was created from dirt, the husband is to be reverenced because God made him into the image of Christ the savior, and the husband humbled himself and took on the burden of the woman’s defilement and her curse as his own responsibility and he is there to cleanse her like Christ cleanses us all of our all our blemishes.


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