Lessons on Life and Marriage from Matthew 10

The rules of the road for Commission also apply to Marriage.

Readership: All; The Married; Those interested in Marriage; Men;
Author’s Note: This post had some input from Jack.
Length: 2,300 words
Reading Time: 8 minutes

Conflicts as Vectors of Life Lessons

I’ve had some email conversations with Deti, Jack, and Mike at Marriage, Sex, and More (NSFW).  The discussions with these men have been very helpful, and between their insights and some honest self-evaluation, I saw a few areas that I needed to change in myself regarding my interactions with my wife.  These areas are directly related to masculinity.

Here’s one noteworthy change that I’ll relate to our readers. Being the head, I don’t argue with my wife at all, because what superior argues with their direct reports?  I’ll state expectations once, and she either complies or she does not, but I don’t worry about her behavior even though I may have to take action to address it in the future.  This alone has made for better interactions between us.  I also don’t ask anymore, I say what I want, I give instructions, or I act.  For as headstrong and obstinate as she can be at times, she really hasn’t given me any negative replies or real resistance.  There are still times when it feels like my stomach is churning because the beta chump in me does not want to give up without a fight, but I’m working on putting that part of me in its place.

Jack covered this approach in a past study he did on Marital Conflict. He goes over an in-depth account of the psychology, and describes the interaction as making “bids” (the man invites positive attention from the wife) and making “demands” (the man makes requests for the wife to do something or change her actions). Jack came up with the idea of “demanding better responses to bids”, and it appears that several readers have had tremendous success with this approach. Jack also reported a study from John Gottman that showed when the husband initiates more conflict than the wife, then the marriage improved over the long haul. When the wife initiated more conflict than the husband, then the opposite happened. I strongly urge all married men to carefully read through the posts on this subject, especially these three…

  1. Σ Frame: Conflict Structure and Marital Satisfaction (November 15, 2017)
  2. Σ Frame: Disciplined, Submissive, Happy Wives (February 15, 2018)
  3. Σ Frame: How To Get A Better Response From Your Girl (February 27, 2018)

Mike Davis’ approach is very similar to this but he describes it in his own words.  For example, instead of “bids” and “demands”, he’ll say something along the lines of “Men say what they want.  It’s up to her to comply, but if she doesn’t, go about your business like it didn’t really matter to you.”  It is the concept of bid and demand in action. Deti’s approach is kind of the same way, except his wife is less submissive and more disorderly, so he ramps up the tension (usually with Dread Game) in order to induce some humility in her and give her a sense of security.

One of the areas that emailing with Mike showed me is the difference between dominant and domineering.  My issue, because of the hurt and anger, is a propensity to move into domineering territory.  Fighting the urge to argue a point helps me keep more in the dominant category, which helps my marriage.

To me, the difference between dominant and domineering is having what the ‘sphere calls an outcome independence mindset. Mike and Deti both have this mindset, and Jack wrote a post about this too. Dominant is when you accept that she may not act the way you want her to, but you know that you will be fine no matter what she does. Domineering behavior comes from a place of fear that you will not be fine depending on her behavior, and so you do whatever you can to control the outcome in order to keep it all together. Being dominant is an expression of faith that God will handle everything, resulting in calm, assured confidence, whereas being domineering does not.

Lessons on Life and Marriage from Matthew 10

So what does all this have to do with Matthew 10 which is the chapter where Christ sends out the 12 disciples?  The instructions Jesus gives them require behaviors and attitudes that draw from the blueprint for masculinity.  I’ll go over these aspects of masculinity in the remainder of this post.

Verses 5-6: Christ demonstrates what having a vision looks like. He clearly lays out the mission of what His ministry looks like.  There is no doubt in the apostle’s minds what they are to do, because in these verses Christ provides direct instruction for how to carry out the mission.

  • Stay focused on the mission.
  • Concentrate on helping your own people.
  • Don’t waste time and effort on nonessentials.
  • Know the sheep from the wolves, and stick to your own kind.*
  • Team up with those who share the same values, goals and modus operandi that you do, and who complement your abilities. Doing otherwise will limit your blessings.

These instructions require behaviors and attitudes that display characteristics of masculinity.  The laying out of his vision and giving instructions to achieve it are what husbands are to do with their own families.

Verse 7: Telling people that the kingdom of heaven is at hand is a bold declaration of truth and commitment to truth that would draw the ire of the religious leaders of the day. Applying this to marriage requires husbands to boldly state the truth and offer encouraging words when appropriate.

Verse 8: Demonstrates an understanding of God’s provision to us through helping those God puts in our lives to help. Think of the confidence you would need to have to raise the dead, heal terminal illness or tell demons to leave and expect them to obey.  One might even call this irrational. In marriage, a husband should have this kind of confidence and faith, doing what he can to improve the quality and spiritual vitality of his family foremost, but also others who cross his path of life.

Verses 9-10: Leaving on a journey without provisions requires outcome independence that only exists when there is confidence and trust in God’s provision.  As a husband you are the spiritual head of your family and headship starts and ends with trust in God.

Verses 11-13: In these verses, Jesus gives the apostles the standards they are to enforce and the means by which to enforce them.  They were to evaluate people for worthiness to the vision and mission.  Those that met the standard were to receive the peace Jesus gave the apostles to share.  Those that did not meet the standard and those that rejected God’s message of His kingdom were be left for judgement.  This is a basic overview of evaluating the marriage potential of a woman against your vision.  Knowing your standards and withdrawing your blessing (attention in the case of marriage) are also tactics for a husband to manage his wife’s willingness to work towards the objective of his vision.

Going further, these instructions can be applied to child rearing as well. The inherent lessons applicable to children would be…

  • Maintain good standards and habits.
  • Associate with those of good repute.
  • Build rapport with friends and classmates.
  • Draw appropriate boundaries and withdraw from those who don’t respect your boundaries or treat you right.
  • Choose your friends wisely, those you can trust.
  • Be appreciative and respectful to those who teach, guide, and support you.
  • Don’t behave in ways that would create topics for gossip or bring shame to yourself or the family.
  • Stay where you are supposed to be. Do your best in the place where you are.
  • Finish what you start. Move on to the next task when the previous work is finished.

The need for this instruction points back to the importance of fathers displaying masculine traits in the home.

Father and daughter relaxing on a rocky beach by the sea and having time together.

Verses 14-15: If people under your care won’t follow you, then leave them to their own devices. Let them learn the hard way if that’s how it goes. This is the outcome independence that comes from knowing God is in control.  It also shows that not everyone can or wants to be helped and that we have to be comfortable with that fact.

Verses 16-20: These verses are calls for wisdom and outcome independence with regards to staying on mission. The idea that anything could happen to you for staying on mission but that you will know what to do when the time comes, again, points to confidence and faith in God.

Verses 21-23: The apostles knew that they would head into circumstances that would lead to conflict, but they went anyway.  Staying the course for what is right even when it is not easy or convenient is a generally masculine trait. Moving on from people who do not help you towards your vision is a means of setting and holding those boundaries necessary for accomplishing a long-term objective.

Verses 24-25: These verses portray a hierarchy of authority.  The students and servants are not above their teachers and masters and the members of the household follow its head.  This corresponds to Headship in marriage.  I have seen my own family follow in my reactions, where my short temperedness and irritability shows up in them.  I have also seen where my happiness feeds into their own happiness and helps them when they are struggling.  Basically, “Happy king, Happy kingdom.”  This conveys the importance of having a Godly wife.

Verses 26-31: These verses show us the boldness the disciples were to do their work with, which is a very masculine trait, and that they were to do so without fear of consequences.  We also see the reason why we as men can act without fear of the outcome, namely that God controls the world down to things as insignificant as the life of a sparrow or the number of hairs on our heads. (A moment of candor, if God controls how many hairs are on my head and can sustain trillions of stars in the sky, does he really have to make the counting easier using my scalp?)  Jesus is basically telling them there is a plan that the Almighty set in motion.  It could be tough, but you do not have to fear.  If I were to apply this to our world today, it would be to say, “Men, act and speak confidently and boldly because it is who God made you to be in His image.  Don’t worry about the outcome, because God won’t let anything happen to you that is not in His plan, down to knowing which of your hairs were going to fall out on your pillow last night.”

* Concerning Matthew 10:6, fellow blogger W. J. Tychonievich wrote an interesting post that sheds light on the identity of the lost sheep of Israel.

Conclusions

Correctly understanding your value as a man is so important.

Men who grew up in a converged or progressive church are not very well aware of how the Bible is an authority on masculine traits. But when you become aware of the nature of masculinity, and those traits associated with it (through taking the Red Pill), then you can see that those traits show up throughout scripture. In this post, I’ve only covered one chapter in the Bible, and we see that a plethora of masculine traits are shown in the commands Jesus gives the disciples before sending them out.

This suggests that the core of masculinity has elements of trusting God’s provision in many aspects of life, including resources (go out without any money), shelter (staying at the home of someone you just met), and trusting God with what to say.  Outcome independence is the term for trusting God with your life, knowing that whatever happens is of His doing for your ultimate benefit.

Similarly, PUA tactics are all based on mirroring concepts of dominant masculinity and male sexual authority that are reminiscent of Headship.  But instead of moving towards a life’s vision, their ends are more carnal in nature. The Christian Manosphere concentrates on those true aspects of masculinity that have been forgotten within churchianity, and attempts to avoid the spiritual pitfalls that secular authors ride through roughshod in their pursuit of a score. For example, secular Red Pill authors have stated that you need to be totally self-sufficient, have a “backup plan” of some sort, and you have to “stop caring” in order to achieve outcome independence. This approach might appear the same on the outside, but this kind of comprehension is missing the element of faith.

How do the things I discussed in the first section (e.g. “bids”, making “demands”, outcome independence, etc.) tie in with the lessons from Matthew 10?

While Jack and I were examining every verse in light of masculine traits, it was hard not to get sidetracked by delving into tactics instead of masculine characteristics.  We decided to focus on traits, and let readers discover more about the tactics on their own. You’re welcome to discuss tactics in the comments.

To give readers a clue, RP tactics are based off of masculine traits. Deti started a long discussion of this in his comment the other day about the importance of knowing one’s value and worth.  Man has vision.  He keeps that vision as his primary objective.  Not putting up with activities/people that don’t support that vision creates man’s frame.  Man holds frame by enforcing the boundaries he puts in place so that he can stay on mission.

It’s all, in one way or another, a display of dominant, masculine traits.

Related

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146 Responses to Lessons on Life and Marriage from Matthew 10

  1. “Being the head, I don’t argue with my wife at all, because what superior argues with their direct reports?”

    That sounds like a good strategy.

    Good distinction between dominant and domineering.

    All that said, I’m not sure why you link to a site with pornography. The guy may be great at leading his wife, but I don’t need a picture of her giving him a BJ.

    Liked by 1 person

    • cameron232 says:

      That’s because the manosphere is a reactionary movement and we sometimes have a bad habit of reacting against Churchian denial of male sexuality (the idealization of female non-sexual embrace of beta male husbands) by going too far in the opposite direction. I do it all the time with inappropriate comments and sometimes the pictures posted reflect this as well. There’s been non-explicit BJ pics posted here before.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Lastmod says:

        That’s anon-explicit picture?

        Its his page, he do whatever he likes. If I was indeed married, I would probably be taking his advice in areas that it was needed, or asking questions.

        As for the picture itself? I guess the world “just had to know” he gets BJ’s.

        Liked by 2 people

      • cameron232 says:

        I can’t see it (and probably shouldn’t) since I’m at work and not on my personal phone. I mean that there are non-explicit but suggestive photos posted here sometimes.

        Like

      • Lastmod says:

        Scorolling through his posts….yeah…..well…..he has a penis! His wife has breasts!(shocking, I never knew women had them). I’m done here. Perhaps if I was married…I would feel the need to read, or get help / advice in this area if I needed it.

        “Dear Penthouse Foum…..I too did not believe all the stories you piblished until one day a funny thing happened to me……my secretery just showed up to work on Monday in a vetry short skirt with no paties on……she just felt the need to do this…I being, an above average looking man took advantage of the situation……..”

        (rolls eyes). You know, good for him. He is having sex!

        Liked by 3 people

    • Red Pill Apostle says:

      EM – Some people will find Mike’s content problematic. I personally don’t find them titillating because his content is of a longtime married man and his wife. Here is what people need to know about Mike and his marriage and why his opinion and story are valuable.

      Mike fell for the “happy wife, happy life” mantra early in his marriage. In trying to be a good husband he lost those traits that his wife was attracted to and over time the marriage began to falter. Sex was uninspiring, he saw that his wife was going through the motions and he felt that divorce was on the horizon.

      They were in a tough place and before the manosphere existed he recognized that the husband should be the driving force in marriage and he began to fix himself. He fought through the fear and apprehension that comes with being open about what he wanted in marriage and life and did it anyway. He did not shy away from the hard work of molding himself into a person that he himself would want to follow.

      He is also practical, recognizing that much of what the sphere says about women is true and is applicable to his wife, because he’s seen it in his own marriage years ago. He has told me that with time, leading your wife becomes second nature and it’s not nearly as much work as when you are fixing things. He had a marriage that almost broke and figured out how to mold it into a relationship that resembles headship and submission as depicted in the Bible.

      Here is the last thing I want people, specifically men, to know about Mike. If you will to listen to him to learn from his wisdom and put in the effort to improve yourself, he is wildly generous with his time giving of it freely to complete strangers. The man truly has a heart for marriage.

      Liked by 2 people

      • That’s a great message, and I’m glad he did that and shares the success stories. Hopefully, others will follow.

        I just don’t need to see him and his wife naked while he shares his message :-).

        Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        EM – I understand your sentiment. Before Mike started working on being the best version of himself that he could be, sex for them was once a week, one position and no lights on. Now she’s an active participant in his posts, they have some form of sexual intimacy most every night and is quite enthusiastic about fulfilling his desires. Note, they are grandparents in their 50s. To me, especially to me, this is encouraging.

        Liked by 2 people

      • cameron232 says:

        I couldn’t click on the link if I wanted to since I’m on my work computer. It would be blocked.

        When I see a pic of e.g. a hot young blond girl…..

        https://sigmaframe.wordpress.com/2021/09/01/how-is-godliness-attractive/

        ….looking like she’s going to give a BJ then it’s hard not to think of said hot young blond girl giving you a BJ. Yes, it is a temptation to concupiscence So I basically agree with EM’s prudishness.

        “because his content is of a longtime married man and his wife.”

        Actually I’m going to call bullsh!t. I think most guys will struggle not to think about another dude’s (attractive) wife whether or not it’s a longtime married man and his wife being depicted. Arousal and temptation is mostly about if the girl and situation is attractive not the moralized context – “oh, she’s been long married, now if was pictures of a woman fornicating, that’s a different story!” If you can make this distinction for purposes of your arousal cycle congratulations – you have better control than I do.

        Bet you money most guys who deny this are lying through their teeth.

        Liked by 2 people

      • cameron232 says:

        Well dudes, I am 50 miles from home and don’t have the ability to Free Willy for another 6 hours so I’m gonna avoid looking at OPP. Catholic guilt thing LoL! No shaming intended bros.

        Liked by 2 people

    • thedeti says:

      I don’t need a pic of it either. But I’m not going to clutch pearls about it. Leave that to the girls and their useless shaming language.

      This is a site by men, for men, to help men, where men talk about things important to men. We speak and depict things frankly and explicitly. It’s time we stopped our squeamishness about this and talked about it, looked at it, faced it, and dealt with it all head (heh) on.

      Look. We are Christian men, but we’re men. There has got to be a place where we as men can discuss women, what we like about them, and what we want from them and what we want to do with them, without someone getting irritated or grimaced because they saw something a little shocking or out of the ordinary. Can we develop a bit of a thicker skin here?

      Liked by 1 person

      • Oh, piss off. I’m no prude. But a Christian site shouldn’t link to porn. If you want to do some pathetic macho virtue-signaling over why that’s OK, then go ahead. I’m not buying it. Don’t be intellectually dishonest and conflate it with not being able to discuss women and such candidly.

        Liked by 4 people

      • thedeti says:

        Shrugs

        Say what you want to about me, but I’m here doing the work. I don’t care what you call me – the work’s getting done whether you help or not, whether you like it or not. Either pitch in and help, or stand aside while we get the work done. It’s not about intellectual dishonesty. OK, fine, you don’t like Davis’ site. Don’t look at it. Now that that’s out of the way, can we get back to the task at hand and fix this sh!t? Can we focus on what we agree on and not concern ourselves with irrelevancies and what we disagree about?

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        Kinda my fault honestly guys. I have a problem with visual stuff. EM just made one small comment and I kept it going. It’s all good.

        Liked by 1 person

      • I, as Captain Obvious, made a side comment about an ostensibly Christian site linking to porn. You are the one with the multiple soliloquies getting defensive about it. Find a mirror.

        Liked by 2 people

      • thedeti says:

        Help, don’t help. Doesn’t matter to me.

        Like

      • Lastmod says:

        In defense of this Mike character and his site:

        It’s his site, he can post what he d*mn well pleases. If Christian married men find a use for this. Great. Good for them.

        For a LONG time, supposed Christian men had zero problem with Roosh’s sexual escapades across Europe. His very un-christ like stances concerning women, and how to treat others……the defense was “what he says is truth, don’t sin….but his take on women is correct”

        Well……when Roosh was found down and out, living at home with mommy, wouldn’t answer the door for the press…….hero took a fall. Finds God. Good on him. Whatever.

        Same with this guy……I don’t care if he thinks he is christian or not…..or this new “masculine” christianity…god pill….or if he is a tantraic buddhist……it never stopped this forum and forums like it to linking to this stuff.

        I wouldn’t post pictures. He is very proud of himself evidently…….and I am sure this gives the wife the attention she needs or wants…and I am sure 100% she is okay with this. If a guy here can get some help from this…christian or not….no hate, no bothers….but when this forum actually starts making him into one, you might lose me on that.

        Anyway

        Like

  2. Scott says:

    Once upon a time, when a movie or TV show wanted to depict that a married couple was about to have married fun, they would show them start to kiss, then move to the outside of the house and the lights in the bedroom would go out.

    I miss those days.

    Liked by 7 people

    • thedeti says:

      So do I. Those were also days where pretty much every man got to have some married fun, and pretty much every man and woman knew and understood what was about to happen with said married couple.

      That was then, this is now.

      We don’t live in those days anymore. We now live in a time where 20% of men and around 70% of women get to have that fun. We now live in a time where it falls to us men to do the teaching and instruction that other men’s fathers and mothers should have done. We now live in a time where despite whatever instruction is given, most of those 80% are going to be just sh!t out of luck.

      So I don’t too much care that the girls and a few of the men don’t like depictions of sex on one site. Ozzie and Harriet left the building. It’s too bad they didn’t teach their kids how to do this, and their kids didn’t teach their kids. Because they didn’t teach their kids and their kids’ kids, it now falls to me to do it. So I don’t really care that some people don’t like how I do it.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Elspeth says:

        For the record, no women complained about the site. I didn’t even click on it. Eternity Matters, I think, is a guy. I could be wrong.

        I will however, invoke our old friend Cane Caldo and submit that the marriage bed should be treated equivalently to the holiest of holies.

        Liked by 1 person

      • thedeti says:

        E:

        Perhaps you didn’t complain explicitly, but you and Liz “like” the comments that are critical of Davis’ site and echo the pearl clutching about depictions of fellatio. You might as well have just cluck-clucked out loud. I know EM is a man.

        Sorry you don’t like it. But there’s important work to do here, and we don’t have time to make sure women like the work, like how it’s done, or even understand what needs to be done.

        Like

      • Elspeth says:

        Except….it was MEN who “clucked” out loud and more than once. Yet you explicitly led with complaints about the women.

        I suspect this is the first time I’ve ever, ever been accused of pearl clutching though, so thanks for that.

        I mean it. No snark. Thank you.

        Like

      • thedeti says:

        I don’t care.

        Lead, follow, or get out of the way. There’s important work to be done. We don’t have time or energy to expend making sure everyone is comfortable. I don’t have time to coddle people’s squeamishness. If you have nothing useful to say, zip it.

        Either help me, or leave me alone while I do what needs done.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        I’m not trying to censor this site or any other. I’d guess some guys are more sensitive to that sort of thing than others. If that’s not an issue for some guys that have some sort of mature sexuality or faith or “control over their hormones” like commenter Maniac , or whatever then cool.

        I might be an especially lecherous, adolescent-minded dude, IDK.

        Sorry my dudes, if you post pics of your naked wives giving you bj’s I’m gonna struggle with my thoughts. That’s my only point.

        Liked by 1 person

    • Joe2 says:

      And I always thought they were just going to go to sleep, each to their own bedroom after a good night kiss. Boy, was I naive when I was young.

      Liked by 3 people

  3. Scott says:

    Once when my step son came to visit (he was like 22) we were trying to be REALLY quiet but it apparently didn’t work. We got a text (that we didn’t see until later) that said “STOP!”

    It was kind of embarrassing, but appropriate at the same time. Those moments are precious/playful and family/private like.

    Nothing was seen, but he got to “know” that mom and dad are still really in to each other, without any graphic learning.

    Liked by 3 people

    • thedeti says:

      Better he hears that, than mom and dad at each other’s throats, yelling and screaming and fighting with each other behind closed doors.

      Mrs. d and I did that a lot. Our house has paper thin walls. After I could hear my daughter talking on the phone in her room, it dawned on me – the fighting we did. My kids heard everything. EVERYTHING. And we said some pretty graphic stuff during those arguments.

      I’d much rather they heard us f__king than fighting – but mostly, they just heard fighting.

      Liked by 4 people

    • cameron232 says:

      Just tell the kids your moving heavy furniture.

      Like

    • cameron232 says:

      Kid: “What are you doing?!!!”
      Mom: “Mommy and daddy are ummm….. wrestling!”
      Kid: “It looks like daddy’s winning.”

      Liked by 3 people

  4. I made an opening comment with two positive things along with a mild aside that a site like this shouldn’t be posting links to porn. I was thinking back to when a church we attended spent most of its effort on entertaining kids rather than teaching them good theology. The leaders went for a bait-and-switch to get kids in the door, but they never got around to the switch. I’d joke that if you offered the kids free beer and pornography then that might boost attendance, but perhaps there would be a downside. That was my point here: It is a great site that doesn’t need porn links. It hurts your witness and diminishes what I think is some truly unique and excellent work.

    If that mild constructive criticism makes some wet their pants, then I don’t care. The irony that people clutched their pearls while accusing me of the same is lost on them. I yawn at the logical fallacy-fests trying to blame me.

    That’s my last word. I can go elsewhere to get/give red pill advice on how to have a fabulous, sex-filled Christian marriage (35 years and counting) where my wife recognizes my authority, where I raised two “unicorn” daughters who did things the right way and have married fantastic Christian guys, etc. (all by the grace of God, of course, and by learning through mistakes along the way).

    All the best, guys.

    Liked by 1 person

    • whiteguy1 says:

      I think I speak for most here:

      OK boomer.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Lastmod says:

      Actually I agree in theory. Maybe there should have been a warning to men. “Hey guys….. Some risque photos. Don’t view at work or while your teenage daughter is talking to you” kind of thing.

      I am glad to know to I guess that Mike here has a penis, and manscapes. The world just had to know… other than that…. So what? If men on this forum need to see that… well….. I really don’t know what to say…… I read through a few of his posts……. I am sure they’re helpful to someone / somebody out there. It’s not a big deal. The women I have seen in Playboy by glance over the decades look better than his wife and those few times I have been a shower with other guys……. I was not surprised to know they had one too.

      I guess we should link back to that discernment post?

      Liked by 4 people

  5. cameron232 says:

    If any of you decide to post naked wife pictures keep yourselves out of the pics. I don’t want to see y’all’s scrotums.

    There does that lighten things up a bit?

    Liked by 1 person

  6. Ed Hurst says:

    Back to the topic of the post: Sometimes it can work out really well without even giving orders. Back in my military days in Europe, my beloved asked me one morning what I thought of her new blouse. I said it looked fine, but then casually remarked that I didn’t think too much of shoulder pads — it was a fad back then, and these were prominent. When I got home from work, the trash can in our bedroom was half full of shoulder pads from her other garments.

    Liked by 4 people

    • Scott says:

      Yes. They absolutely do stuff like this.

      When Mychael was my girlfriend, she asked me what I liked for hair style and I said, the darker, the longer and the straighter the better. The next day, it was jet black, and had been straightened.

      Liked by 2 people

      • cameron232 says:

        “They absolutely do stuff like this…”

        ….. for men they place high value on.

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        When we were first dating she dyed her hair from it’s natural golden blonde to lighter blond and curled her naturally straight hair with a perm. I didn’t like it at all – prefer natural blond and straight.

        Her hair is very long, but shorter than I like it now. She knows I like maximum length – it used to be down past her hips – but it gives her headaches she said.

        Like

    • elspeth says:

      Right. Because you stated a preference, and she cares about what you think. A wife wanting her husband to be pleased when he looks at her. Sounds so basic to me, but apparently it isn’t.

      Liked by 3 people

      • cameron232 says:

        It was when she was his girlfriend not wife.

        Do you imagine most of your churchgoing friends would do this for their husbands? Next day change their hair entirely based on his stated preference? Seriously asking.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        It’s like I’ve taken over for Deti in harassing you! LoL – just kidding.

        Liked by 1 person

      • thedeti says:

        It is all a function of her attraction to him.

        If she’s attracted, she’ll do anything for him. If she is not, even the smallest requests are grave and unreasonable impositions.

        Liked by 3 people

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        I will second Deti’s sentiment. When Mrs. Apostle and I first started dating she changed her appearance based on what I liked and even altered her education/career plans. Things went awry (I’ll call it that) after marriage but along with faith, part of what makes me think that the relationship can be repaired is that initial attraction.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Scott says:

        RPA-

        Yes! She felt that way about you once, and I truly believe its still in there somewhere. I didn’t know that about your relationship until just now.

        Don’t give up. I think its worth it.

        Liked by 5 people

      • Scott says:

        I feel so strongly about this, I need to write more.

        RPAs wife NEEDS contact with women like Elspeth. This is a major weak link in the Christian red-pill civilizational reset plan that is so desperately needed.

        Liked by 6 people

      • Scott says:

        And it doesn’t matter if RPA “deserves” to be treated like crap, or if he has “earned” the respect and sweetness that he entitled to by virtue of taking on the role of “husband.” There is NO quid pro-quo in marriage. It is a 100% obligation oriented relationship, and without accountability from other women, the ENTIRE thing fails.

        Liked by 4 people

      • elspeth says:

        You know Scott, for years I had a blog (or two) where I tried to talk about this stuff. There were some women who seemed to appreciate it and be helped by it, but there was a subset who made the whole thing so intolerable that I began to question whether it was even worth the trouble. So I quit.

        I was insulted, my huband was insulted, I was dragged on gossip sites and the standard line was, “That must be a horrible marriage with a horrible man who is abusive”, etc. I even got tarred a homewrecker even though my husband had never been married and was 19 years old when we got together. Hearth wrote a post once and said that her husband corrects her swiftly when she disrespects him, and got dragged for that too.

        I like to think I have thick skin, but I finally decided that online ministering to women was just not for me. I take very seriously my responsibility to exhort the women in my immediate circle to excellent wifehood. I take seriously the opportunities afforded me to speak into the lives of younger women around me. But I will not subject myself to strangers crapping on my virtual carpet, and I’ve grown to question the wisdom of a woman setting up the equivalent of an online church to preach to other men’s wives. In person is one thing, because those women’s husbands have access to SAM. He’s had men tell him that they think his refusal to be my liege may work for him, but they are not sure it would work for them, or even if it’s right. One Christian man told him that patriarchy is bad. His take was that Christians should promote complementarianism, and not patriarchy.

        What would really be helpful is if pastors and their wives would do the bare minimum and preach God’s word faithfully. But people are scared to death that some woman somewhere might be abused as if abusive men and traditional, Christian, Bible-based understanding of sexual hierarchy and responsibilities have anything to do with one another.

        Liked by 5 people

      • Jack says:

        Elspeth wrote [emphases mine],

        “One Christian man told him that patriarchy is bad. His take was that Christians should promote complementarianism, and not patriarchy.”

        “What would really be helpful is if pastors and their wives would do the bare minimum and preach God’s word faithfully. But people are scared to death that some woman somewhere might be abused as if abusive men and traditional, Christian, Bible-based understanding of sexual hierarchy and responsibilities have anything to do with one another.

        The feminist PTB have have worked overtime for decades with their narratives to establish this false (or cherry picked at best) association in people’s subliminal minds (i.e. “Patriarchy bad!”). What we are now discovering is that Feminism hurts more women and men much worse than Patriarchy. It just takes longer for the “displaced incel/MGTOW” and “lonely spinster with cats and wine” phase to kick in. Christians need to reestablish the understanding that both Feminism and Patriarchy have their distinctive pros and cons, but ultimately, God’s way is best.

        Liked by 1 person

      • elspeth says:

        I think the saddest part of that first exchange I mentioned was born not because my husband was offering any advice, but because the husband in question was excitedly sharing the sermon his pastor had preached that morning, which was basically a condemnation of patriarchy as an abusive, man-made system, while complementarianism is the Scriptural standard.

        Thing is, I am in favor of complementarianism because I do believe it is the Scriptural standard. I just don’t believe it equalizes the authority between husband and wife.

        It saddens me greatly that the meanings of words have been so bastardized that common sense is thrown out the window. No one would ever consider a matriarchal system inherently abusive, despite the fact that it also bestows authority and headship on one party in the relationship.

        Of course one of the first strategic steps in a cultural revolution is co-opting of the language and redefinition of terms. I talked a little about that here:

        Corrupting language and education is a political strategy.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Lastmod says:

        It’s all a show right? Or is it? I applied to be a contestant on “The Price Is Right” about a month ago. Since I am local, I have been asked to “come on down” to CBS / Television City Studios and meet with a producer. The pretty sounding girl on the phone reminded me “to be excited” and “put on a good show for the producers to see if I would be a good contestant.”

        They’ll get a show for sure, but not what they probably are expecting. People do stuff for people for a reason. Want to be a show? Act this way. Want that guy to like you more? Wear your hair for him, the way he likes it.

        “…she changed her appearance based on what I liked and even altered her education/career plans.”

        Depends on what you want. I would be a bit more intrigued if I told a gal I liked, “Hey… Why don’t you…” and she replied, “Why? Tell me why you like this look or that look”, instead of just doing it. Different strokes for different folks right?

        Elvis had Priscilla all dolled up looking almost “fake” and “plastic” in her big ‘do and makeup applied with a paint sprayer. That one Kardashian make her butt so big, she bordered on the absurd. I’ll be excited when I have to be, and we’ll see what happens. Honestly, I did this for nostalgia reasons…… and I just wanted to be on a TV show without an audition. I guess I was wrong there. Will keep you posted. I have to be at the studio by 6 p.m. on Wednesday.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        Jason. That’s so cool. Have to see it if you make it. Yodeling mountain climber game was my favorite

        Like

      • Lastmod says:

        That was every boy’s fav game on that show. We’ll see! If I don’t make the cut, at least I’ll be in the studio audience. Life is too short, and since I live down here….why not try to get on a show like this?

        Liked by 2 people

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Scott –

        Thanks for that. We are working on things with clearly set expectations and some firm boundaries on what is and is not acceptable. I am cautiously optimistic, as early results are promising.

        Elspeth –

        Mike Davis tells me similar stories about responses men give him when he shares what he did to get his wife to respond to him the way she does. A man will ask what has to happen to get a wife like Mike has and when Mike shares his story they either aren’t willing to put in the work to make it happen or they don’t believe it is possible. After hearing many excuses he stopped trying to convince men who did not want to be convinced. He now will offer to talk with anyone who wants to, but the man has to be proactive in seeking Mike and he will only continue to help if they are willing to put in the work to try and make it happen.

        I would think that if you painted a picture, not of submission and headship, but those things that SAM gives you that other wives wish their husbands gave them, you might draw in women who ask you what your “secret” is. If they scoff at your answer, you move on. If they are receptive, that is a woman you might be able to effectively counsel.

        Liked by 2 people

      • elspeth says:

        @ RPA:

        Eh. Staying within the circle of flesh and blood influence provides plenty of opportunity for women to see what my husband does for me and how he cherishes me. It’s clear the kind of relationship we have and it tempers reaction to what I say (only when asked!!!), even if said woman disagrees.

        But I have had friends say (on numerous occasions) that they are far more aware of the ways they speak to, think about, and respond to their husbands after our conversations. I consider that a win.

        Liked by 4 people

      • cameron232 says:

        @Elspeth, that’s too bad about your and Hearthies experience blogging. Guess we should thank you instead of picking so much.

        Anyway hopefully we don’t give you that kind of grief. People share personal stuff. It’s interesting to try to draw conclusions about relationships but I try not to use stuff people say here against them in a hurtful way

        Women can throw a huge amount of hate at other women. Often, honestly, out of envy it seems.

        Liked by 2 people

      • elspeth says:

        “Anyway hopefully we don’t give you that kind of grief. People share personal stuff. It’s interesting to try to draw conclusions about relationships but I try not to use stuff people say here against them in a hurtful way.”

        You’ve never used anything I’ve said in a hurtful way. No worries. Interestingly, the very things I used to share in an attempt to short circuit the accusation of presenting perfection or inciting envy didn’t stop that from taking place. That still happened, but was served with a side of derision and judgment for our sins and mistakes.

        That’s when I knew it was best for women to get their advice from someone with a squeaky clean past, like Lori A. And that it was best for me to close up shop and share my wisdom with people who have a 3-D view of my life and family.

        Perspective is everything.

        Liked by 3 people

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Elspeth –

        “That’s when I knew it was best for women to get their advice from someone with a squeaky clean past, like Lori A. And that it was best for me to close up shop and share my wisdom with people who have a 3-D view of my life and family.”

        This is disheartening to an extent. The list of people in Christ’s lineage that are iffy in their “cleanliness” or come from less than ideal backgrounds is a good one. Rahab the harlot is in there, as is Ruth who was a Moabite (a people started by Lot’s incest with his daughters). Then of course you have David and Solomon and all of their well documented indiscretions. I have come to believe that it is seeing the picture, warts and all, that makes God’s ways and the gospel so confounding to some and so beautiful to others.

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        Well part of the problem I suppose is the focus on words/categories which then encourages people to form into camps. “I’m a complementarian.” “I’m a “patriarch-ist.” Such categories aren’t found in scripture. We’re told what’s expected of us.

        I have no problem with “complementarian” (men and women DO complement each other) if the man gets 50.0001 % of the vote. No compulsion to sin in my opinion.

        I posted this before but Matthew Cochran does a good job discussing this from the standpoint of the model of the relationship between Christ and the Church. This avoids the endless back and forth between differing interpretation of verses, arguments about context, etc.

        http://matthewcochran.net/blog/?p=1943

        Liked by 2 people

      • elspeth says:

        O/T, but I think Cam will appreciate it, even though it’s going to sound like the beginning of a bad joke (demographics added for visual imagination):

        A black guy, a Cuban, a Korean, and a white dude -all neighbors and all middle aged- are standing out in front of the space between the black guy and the white guy’s houses, discussing the latest work the white guy’s planning to do on his very nice 20+ year old Corvette.

        A great time is being had by all. Then the owner of the Corvette, lamenting his wife’s reaction to the latest bit of car repair sticker shock, says, “My son and his husband don’t have these kinds of arguments. The again, they make a lot more money than we do.”

        Cuban guy side eyes the black dude, and the Korean guy diverts his eyes downward. A couple of more minutes of small talk continues, before the previously robust conversation peters out.

        I saw the scene from the window, but was not privy to the conversation. My immediate reaction was a line from “Those Were the Days” the intro to the old Archie Bunker show: girls were girls and men were men.

        Sigh. That guy goes to church sometimes, too.

        Liked by 2 people

      • cameron232 says:

        @Elspeth,

        Not shocked about the reactions. White men and even Asian men are portrayed as wimpy goobers in the media. Relentlessly. They’ve internalized it and their women have internalized it. The Cuban man and your man don’t have that issue to contend with.

        Yeah, it’s too bad the church is infested with white male wimps. But really what would you have the white guy do? He’s already “standing up” to her by arguing.

        What would SAM do if you firmly decided to be this way? He can’t beat submission or even basic respect out of you.

        The only tool in the white guy’s toolbox is to threaten to go nuclear, Deti style. Well, that does risk destroying the family. Divorce is bad for adult children too. Do you endorse this tactic?

        I used to ride to work with two Vietnam veterans in their 60s. One was a marine who looked like a human bulldog and was uber alpha (he grabbed the steering wheel from me one time when he was pissed at traffic). Every time he got a speeding ticket, his wife (she didn’t work) would spend that amount of money on something frivolous (as a way to send him a message about his “frivolous” use of their money). The other guy – his wife dumped a glass of ice water over his head while he was sleeping because he was snoring too loud.

        Like

      • elspeth says:

        My husband has an issue with the redefinition of terms over the past couple of decades, LOL. He thought it was strange the way the words “My son’s husband” just rolled off the our neighbor’s tongue as if it were the most normal, natural thing in the world: “It is not possible for a man to have a husband”.

        We knew that the guy’s son is gay. Not news, as the neighbor and my husband actually have a pretty good relationship. They certainly talk and interact with each other far more than me and the wife do.

        I try to bring him up to speed with the rapid changes in language, but he has no interest in the new sensibilities. His linguistics are stuck in the understanding of the world his dad taught him: 1950s (hubs was born in ’73).

        He keeps up with tech developments, since he needs to keep up with that to feed us. But he’s never gonna be okay with the idea that a man can have a husband.

        He was glad [Dave} stood up to his wife though.

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        I actually thought that was a typo in your comment and assumed you meant “wife.” Yeah it’s kind of hard to get used to that sort of thing. Living in a fairly working/LMC neighborhood we probably see less of that. There are two lesbians down the street – exactly fitting the butch woman stereotype. They seem fairly nice though.

        I have an uncle who is two years older than me – LoL – it’s a West Virginia thing. His oldest daughter (my first cousin who is younger than my oldest son) now smokes pot and is bi-sexual (has a boyfriend and “girlfriend”). I miss maw-maw and paw-paw but I’m glad they didn’t live to see this.

        My uncle’s wife, years ago, was fired from her work for looking at “vampire porn” which I guess is a thing. Someone tried to explain it to my maw-maw – bless her virtuous heart she couldn’t even comprehend what they were telling her. Most beautiful woman I have ever known – love and miss her so much.

        Like

      • elspeth says:

        Nope, not a WV thing. My 48 year old husband has a 52 year old uncle. I have nieces and nephews in their mid-40s.

        It’s more a factor of couples having very large families of a long stretch of time. I became an aunt when I was 7 (and yes, my sister was married at the time). Same with my husband’s family. His mother was married when she had her first child, but her parents also had a 3 year-old son as well.

        When we moved to the model of marry young and have maximum 4 kids, all by the age of 30-ish, then added college to the list of “things you must do before having kids”, then we see the idea of an aunt or uncle being much older than their nieces and nephews.

        It probably is a function of class as well, of course. “well bred” people have always kept something of a limit on the numbers of children they produced compared to us down at the bottom.

        Well, Queen Victoria and Prince Albert had 9 kids, so that’s not absolute. Theirs was also a legendary love story, though.

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        I mean, this is a woman who grew up on a rural dairy farm in Greenbriar county, WV in the 1930s, was a Holiness Christian, married at 15, spent her entire life loving and serving the men and children in her family, never cursed, smoked or touched alcohol, saw the good in everyone, fed hobos off her back porch, etc. Yes, as a matter of pride, I was “special” to her and she was certainly special to me. “Mary” the most beautiful female-name in the universe. Got to hold her hand for hours as she was dying.

        In her twilight years – vampire porn. Lord, please come take me away to a better place because I can’t go back to a better time.

        Liked by 1 person

  7. feeriker says:

    “Sorry my dudes, if you post pics of your naked wives giving you bj’s I’m gonna struggle with my thoughts. That’s my only point.”

    I think very nearly all of us would struggle, being the hormone-filled male specimens God created us as.

    I have to ask, though: why would any man who is not also a pimp post nude pictures of his wife in sexually explicit situations for all the world’s males to stare at? It makes ZE-RO sense.

    Liked by 6 people

    • Lastmod says:

      Stranger things have happened. He has some nice pics of himself there too, or at least “he” thinks so. He’s got “gonads” for sure posting this, I will admit.

      Like

    • lastholdout says:

      Wasn’t last week’s post about “discernment?”

      Liked by 1 person

      • Lastmod says:

        I mentioned that above….. I think Jack here though would in real “Brady Bunch honesty” like men to focus on Mike’s postings rather than his “bold” pictures.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Lastmod,

        Neither of those are the case. The post developed from an email string Jack and I had regarding scripture and masculinity and how, when you are tuned into masculine traits, you start to see them in scripture. Part of the reason for the email was because of my off thread conversations with Mike and Deti, both of whom had turned towards concepts of masculinity as I bounced ideas about my marriage off them and they gave me their impressions and advice.

        They only reason Mike is mentioned in the post is because of my email conversation with him. Much of what he and I have emailed about is more detailed when it comes to marriage and some of the specifics about improving yourself as a husband, than what he puts on the blog.

        Like

    • lastholdout says:

      I know I’ll regret this, but here it is anyway . . . Mike may have had great success with his wife and he may think that being able to post pornographic pictures of her (and him) somehow gives credibility to his success and, thus, his method. It doesn’t. All it says is that he’s willing to pimp out his wife and himself with photos and videos. (I believe he said they are monetizing the photo and video content. If that is not pimping, then what is?) For all those who are defending Mike, where are your pictures of you and your wife? Oh, I see. “It is good for Mike, but I’m not going to do it.” Or, “There’s no way in hell my wife would want pictures or videos of her (and me) posted for all the world to see.” Mike and his wife are an anomaly. Why are we taking an extreme and trying to normalize it? Yes, Mike and his wife can do whatever the hell they want. I’m not begrudging them. But I don’t see the added value he brings, given the liability that is attached.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Lastmod says:

        Some of this may perhaps be the “humblebrag” thing blackpillers speak about. Many christians and secular alike have a problem with foul language….. I don’t. I would watch my tongue while in Uniform of course…….. but many do. If, as a Christian, you don’t like what he is doing…. then don’t view it or give him cred. Remember that ad a few years back with the “hot mom” who had twenty kids or whatever and her caption on her ad / picture was “What’s your excuse?” (because she had a nice body after all those babies).

        Women were outraged at it. Kind of the same thing. The “message” is, “All you have to do is put in the work, and yes YOU….. Ms. Belinda Q Housewife, mom of four……… can have this body too! Just put in the work. No excuses!” The power of this also gives them the perfect defense of, “Those who are griping / complaining are prudes, don’t like attractive women, don’t want to put in the work, and are lazy.”

        Mike perhaps may be doing the same thing. I don’t know and don’t care. Roosh was defended here forever when he was pretty much nailing anything with a heartbeat, and Rollo who isn’t a Christian is looked at as some Saint here, and on other Christian forums similar to this….. No complaints on his behavior or motives. A guy post pics of him boning his wife in “September sex” and it gives the message, “Just put the work in, and this will happen to you!”

        Whatever…… If it helps you in your marriage…. doesn’t matter. Don’t like it? Don’t look at it. I do find it a bit “exhibitionist”, more than pornography. Maybe I am more aloof on this because I am not married, no girlfriend, and really never had to worry about this.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        Agreed.

        Like

      • lastholdout says:

        There isn’t a guy on this blog who wouldn’t want to have the influence on his wife that Mike has. Although I would bet that they wouldn’t take it the extreme that he has. Mike is the parallel to what Deti commented in one of the recent posts about women handling their sexuality as a flamethrower. Mike is unwieldly in the “power” of his headship/leadership. He’s taken his wife to a place that defiles her. Mike may be 100% correct in his method, but he’s abused it. He’s forsaken the sanctity of the intimacy of his marriage. I pity him and his wife. If he has a contribution to be made to the red pill community, then why not make it on its own merit — without the sensationalism of showing their sexual escapades.

        Liked by 1 person

    • cameron232 says:

      The internet makes people think and behave strangely.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        The only thing that rivals the internet in bringing out who people really are is copious amounts of alcohol.

        Liked by 2 people

      • cameron232 says:

        Yeah I’m not sure if the bad qualities people display on the internet are the real them or not.

        Lol copious amounts of alcohol make me a very chill, passive guy. Must be who I am.

        Like

    • Lastmod says:

      Well RPA, I don’t have to have Mike, or Rollo, or DS, or anyone tell me “concepts” of masculinity or what it means or what “I” have to do to be considered a man. Because I am one.

      Jesus wept, and overturned tables (two extremes right there). Jesus told the truth, but didn’t spend his time all day in “the gym” to look good for the ladies. Telling the truth to people was probably much harder than just going to the gym, especially to a people who…. like today… don’t like or want to hear it.

      I won’t suppose what Jesus would think or do in today’s crisis of manhood…… but I do know he would quote scripture from the Torah like he always did, “It is written….”, or use scripture as a base, “When Adam walked in the garden….”

      I don’t think he would have talked about masculine pursuits, or how to make men more into men…..for he would have referenced “the father” on that. He also seemed a bit more concerned to what would please “the father” than what would please women, other men or the culture at large.

      Liked by 3 people

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Lastmod,

        “Well RPA, I don’t have to have Mike, or Rollo, or DS, or anyone tell me “concepts” of masculinity or what it means or what “I” have to do to be considered a man. Because I am one.”

        What you are missing in your critique here is that there are traits that are predominantly associated both with masculinity and femininity. They are independent of whether you are a man or not. We were having a discussion about these masculine concepts and traits and this moved to my life and the application of them to my life, because that is the type of feedback I sought from them and they generously gave of their time and wisdom for my benefit. Their feedback helped me identify a couple aspects of how I communicated that I needed to change at the time and the results have been good so far.

        Here’s what I wrote up thread, just so there is no question.

        “Neither of those are the case. The post developed from an email string Jack and I had regarding scripture and masculinity and how when you are tuned into masculine traits you start to see them in scripture. Part of the reason for the email was because of my off thread conversations with Mike and Deti, both of which had turned towards concepts of masculinity as I bounced ideas about my marriage off them and they gave me their impressions and advice.”

        My comment was a simple explanation for why Mike’s blog was mentioned in the post. You personalized my answer, and somehow, my email discussion of masculine traits is about how you don’t need to be told what is masculine and that you are firmly secure in your status as a man. Personalizing comments that are not about you makes interacting with you difficult. If that is how you choose to project who you are, then so be it.

        A potentially better response to what I wrote would be to further delve into the idea of masculine traits. Is masculinity synonymous with being male? If not, what differentiates the two? Are there traits that we can identify as distinctly masculine and if so are they attributed to nature or nurture? Posing answers or insights to any of these questions, or similar questions of your choosing, would add to the main concept of the original post, which is that when Jesus sent out the 12, He did so in a manner that displayed masculine traits.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        I don’t know if I’ve ever read Roosh other than an article about Orthodoxy. I had no reason to read pua. He may be right about some things wrt women. That doesn’t make him some sort of hero to me.

        I’ve read a number of articles by Rollo and have quoted him here. I don’t think he’s some philosopher king. He says some interesting, quotable things. Again I have no need for pua. I also always note his financial incentive to come up with novel ideas he can claim as his.

        Like

      • Lastmod says:

        This is where you lose me. So I am genetically male, and now I have to be told how to be one by who???? You? Jack? Scott? My late father?

        When you speak of traits. Like what? Having sex five times a day? Your penis size? (Yes, I know every woman has told you, I am sure you are larger than she has ever seen.) Hitting on women? Burping in her face? I mean…… I think facial hair on men, a usually denser muscle mass…. men more than women are likely to be red / green color blind. Stuff a man “cannot change” about himself.

        As for your comment, you mentioned…

        “A potentially better response to what I wrote would be to further delve into the idea of masculine traits. Is masculinity synonymous with being male? If not, what differentiates the two? Are there traits that we can identify as distinctly masculine and if so are they attributed to nature or nurture?”

        I actually considered this, or a question similar to it… but it would have been answered with, “Rollo says…”, “DS says…”, “Science says…”, “It’s proven that…”, and it would have been closed off immediately. You already have the answers you accept to be true, and would not consider any other response if truth be told.

        As for personalization……. I do take it in that way (as would most men here) for the fact it was directed at them, including the exit questions. You don’t have to prove your “Alpha male” status to me in here…….. We all know you have beaten me in everything… So what use am I to the faith? To you? What of my opinion anyway? We all know its wrong…… Right??????? 🙂

        Like

      • Jack says:

        “I don’t think [Jesus} would have talked about masculine pursuits, or how to make men more into men….. for He would have referenced “the father” on that. He also seemed a bit more concerned to what would please “the father” than what would please women, other men or the culture at large.”

        LMAO!!! Do you expect Jesus to say, “Now boys, here’s what you have to do to be a man…”??? Masculinity is something that is “caught”, not “taught”. The purpose of this blog is to help men compute the necessary psychological calculus to make the catching easier. “Throwing” a masculine archetype is the father’s role, that’s true, and in the Patriarchal society in which Jesus lived, masculinity was obvious enough that it did not need to be taught from an academic standpoint. In our modern feminist culture, so many fathers have failed to deliver this basic message, that now, men need a primer on manhood.

        Like

      • Lastmod says:

        Now Jack…..of course I don’t…..but taking Matthew 10 here to “next level” really is just doing that, and if indeed it was a patrirachal society……I’ll agree it was….it wouldn’t need to be said, but I don’t see how Matthew 10 is broken down into some secret code that it is actually about men and patrirachal society.

        Men have failed today raising boys because for the most part….and the glaring reason is that they are not there.

        Gone.

        Perhaps they were using their “masculine traits / types / or following hyper-masculinity that only having sex and getting experience matters with zero responsibility. We can blame family court, women, feminism til the cows come home……..not that it should be ignored, but after a running a Scout Troop for ten years……most of the young boys I dealt with, their dad was never married to mom, he got what he wanted and left. Maybe it was by the playbook here of “dump her by the third date”

        Most of the boys, it wasn’t the “family court” that kept son away from dad. It was that dad left the moment mom was pregnant. Maybe some responsibility from the bible should be taught, just maybe there is a reason why in the the word…fornication is frowed upon.

        Maybe it was because where I lived in and ran a Scout Troop from alower social and economic order of people in the city. I personally think the poem “If” by Kipling is a more clear and better template of manhood that re-interpeting Matthew 10 as some :”masculinist primer”

        Also too…..many men are not as intelligent, accomplished or have your physical appeal Jack. They never took calculus in theird grade or whatever and would not have the academic gynmastics to understand Matthew 10 on this level. You can laugh you ass off….happy for you….and glad I am causing you a bit of humor……but even I was reading Matthew 10 and I wasn’t making all these connections.

        Like

  8. lastholdout says:

    Now, back to our regular programming . . .

    I don’t want to neglect the OP. It is another excellent reinforcement for those of us working ourselves out of the BP mentality to maintain frame and, thus, lead our wives out of the hole that they are stuck in. I see it as a discipline that is to be internalized to the point that it becomes a part of who we are.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Red Pill Apostle says:

      “I see it as a discipline that is to be internalized to the point that it becomes a part of who we are.”

      Per the man whose name I will not mention to avoid derailing your import thought, when this point is reached it gets much easier for a husband because guiding your wife becomes second nature.

      Liked by 1 person

  9. redpillboomer says:

    Well, that was quite sporting reading through all the comments above! lol Sorry, I must have missed the link because I kept thinking, “What link are they all talking about? It seemed to create quite the food fight here in this blog!” Well, anyways, going to head back to the post…

    “Similarly, PUA tactics are all based on mirroring concepts of dominant masculinity and male sexual authority that are reminiscent of Headship. But instead of moving towards a life’s vision, their ends are more carnal in nature. The Christian Manosphere concentrates on those true aspects of masculinity that have been forgotten within churchianity, and attempts to avoid the spiritual pitfalls that secular authors ride through roughshod in their pursuit of a score.”

    Yes, this is what slowed me down in my listening to the secular ‘Sphere content creators. I still listen to a few fairly regularly because I like what they have to say, and they seem genuine; like in genuinely trying to help men and not so much worried about making a buck. But even in listening to the ones I like and value most of what they have to say, my take on it can end up often looking something like this: “Yep — agree with that. Yep — agree with that too. Yep — no problems with that either.” …and then, “Nope — don’t disagree in theory with what you’re saying, BUT don’t agree how you’re applying it.” Why the disagreement? It’s because the application doesn’t align with scripture. For example, “Guys, you have to maintain frame with women.” (Okay, good with that.) “Don’t be exclusive when you’re dating.” (Okay good with that too.) “Don’t spend lots of money on them.” (Okay good with that too. Just as an aside, I read just today that the average dinner date in US is $116! Don’t know if it’s true or not, but wow, just wow! That’s some serious coin for a young dude taking some 26 year old CC rider out to dinner!) AND THEN, “If they’re not giving it up by the third date, next them. Ghost and block them.”

    Ah yes, the conundrum for the Christian young man, how to date, enjoy one self, vet the girl, and keep from having to have sex with her by the third date or else send her on her merry way. Not being prudish guys, but there has to be some other way than this approach, although NO ONE in the ‘Sphere deviates from the three date rule that I’ve heard yet. Yep-Yep-Yep… Hmm, got to say “Nope!”, but there’s got to be some way around this, maybe? Any ideas, or is the three date rule now simply ‘truth’ in the SMP and one just has to get with the program or miss out, or simply go the MGTOW monk route? Seriously, what do you all think? Maybe my age is showing here and getting in my way. This might not be a great example above, but I struggle with it and do appreciate coming to this site because of the scriptural grounding, or at least the attempt to align with scriptural views on the relationships between the sexes.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Scott says:

      The “sex by the third date” is so 80s. (When I was dating in my teens)

      Now all you have to know is if she swiped right, or left or whatever. It means you are going to have sex.

      Like

    • Jack says:

      RPB asked,

      “Any ideas, or is the three date rule now simply ‘truth’ in the SMP and one just has to get with the program or miss out, or simply go the MGTOW monk route? Seriously, what do you all think?”

      We hashed this out in February and March this year, and concluded that the current situation has no good solutions. (Readers may like to go to “Posts by Month” on the sidebar to review what was discussed.) HOWEVER, by faith I’ll say that a “solution” is in the divine works. We just need to keep pecking away at it as we have been doing.

      Like

    • Joe2 says:

      “…or is the three date rule now simply ‘truth’ in the SMP and one just has to get with the program or miss out, or simply go the MGTOW monk route? Seriously, what do you all think?”

      Back in the 80’s, a young Christian woman explained to me that the three date rulewas about full disclosure. It was not about giving it up to keep the guy. The intent of the rule was to provide the girl the opportunity to vet a guy on her terms. It focused on what she thought was important (both appearance and performance) and it stopped short of intercourse. It was initiated by the girl so she was in control. So if a Christian girl was interested in a guy, she could now check him out. It was something for her to get out of the way to avoid surprises or disappointments if the relationship progressed. The three date rule was completely gynocentric.

      Today, I don’t have a clue about what goes on in the Christian dating scene.

      Liked by 1 person

  10. Jack says:

    RedPillApostle and I worked on this post for more than a month. So when I logged into WordPress this morning, I was hoping to see some great insights about Biblical examples of masculinity, and maybe some examples of applied tactics or other ideas.

    Instead, I see comments about “Mike has a scrotum”, and “pearl clutching”, and “Roosh and Rollo says… (but we don’t need to care about that)”. Lastmod is taking things personally again. Worst of all, Eternity Matters (who I was just starting to get to know through email correspondence) appears to not be coming back.

    One of the things we learned from this study of Matthew 10 is that Jesus tested people to see if they were worthy of receiving that which they were seeking. I’m beginning to understand why God hasn’t given us any further insights about the conundrums and dilemmas we covered back in February and March.

    Like

    • cameron232 says:

      Yeah I had that thought after this mess. “Jack worked hard and it went off track right out of the gate.” Didn’t think about RPA. Have noticed you’re trying to take the site in a serious, spiritual direction.

      I tend to agree with EM on the disputed matter but try not to be a scold. There’s also some passionate personalities around here — e.g. Deti. I like Jason but there’s a tendency to bring up what “we” did to him — that is distracting.

      I’ll take my share of the blame. Sorry Jack.

      Like

      • thedeti says:

        I’ll take my share of the blame too. I responded directly to EM, and he didn’t like it. Admittedly, my florid, direct style is not everyone’s cup of tea. That said, and even though Mike Davis’ site is a lot to take, it’s what we need to see and hear. Men, at least.

        I need to develop my thoughts on this. Men’s sexuality is overt, in your face, direct. The internet amplifies this with photos and permanency. The way sex is depicted on Mike’s site is the way young men used to talk about this in fleeting words spoken, and in magazines we read and threw away. The internet is forever – it doesn’t degrade like paper nor is it easily forgotten like the spoken word.

        What Mike Davis puts on his site in 2021 is what men used to talk about in 1961, 1971, 1981, and 1991. I know, because was there in 1981 and 1991. I heard the words, I read the printed stories, I looked at the photos. The only difference is that today, in 2021, the words are permanent, the photos there for all to see.

        Like

    • Lastmod says:

      I’m as dumb as whale sh!t here, and that is at the bottom of the ocean, Jack. I read this twice. I took it personally because it was made personal… to us men. I don’t see how “insight” could be allowed or commented upon because there was zero room for insight…… You guys set the table, told us how it was… and that was the end the story.

      So…. on your end, I am sorry. This was an opinion / policy piece for the sphere. Not a piece open to insights. Hence, me evidently taking this personally, the focus on the Mikes private parts… The talk of “sex by the third date”

      And other matters….

      I will not deny the hard work by you and others…….. but at the same time, maybe…. JUST MAYBE……. you men need to look at what was hit right, and what was presented a bit “incorrectly”…. excuse me, not that per say…. but just with a spirit of “Aagree with this / affirm this post, or else you are not mature on any level!”

      I have had foolproof, awesome plans at my job…. sometimes…. they fall through. What looks good on the whiteboard, and presented to the team I supervise sound great! Its awesome…. well, the execution part doesn’t always work. But do I blame my “incompetent property managers”???

      No. I am the leader (supposedly) and I have take the hit of “I didn’t make it clear. The tools were not there. You know… it IS a good plan, but this team need a bit more work in this area or that area…….. Teach and uplift them, so we can try my plan again in the future” kind-of-thing.

      As for that new poster, I did not take his stance…. but I know that feeling here….. sometimes…SOMETIMES you guys close the door before even considering someone else…….. and this guy was a believer

      Like

  11. feeriker says:

    “I will second Deti’s sentiment. When Mrs. Apostle and I first started dating she changed her appearance based on what I liked and even altered her education/career plans. Things went awry (I’ll call it that) after marriage .”

    I’m slowly beginning to understand now why so many men refuse to commit, to “put a ring on it,” to “tie the knot.” Why they “string woman along,” making them think that commitment is always “just around the corner.” They’ve seen more than one of their buddies get into a serious relationship with a woman who worships the ground he walks on and who will self-immolate if he asks her to do it, only to have the same woman turn fridgybitch sexless harpy as soon as the wedding ring goes on. “No,” these men think to themselves. “FTS. I’m not setting myself up for that trap. Wedding ring = inner bitch activator/personality inverter. Free milk beats cantankerous cow maintenance any day. If the milk dries up, there’s a whole herd out there to pick from. But once you buy a cow that goes dry, you’re stuck with her.”

    Liked by 3 people

    • cameron232 says:

      Well said fee.

      “Wedding cake is the best libido killer.”

      In all fairness, Al Bundy/Ed O’Neill warned us about this in the 1980s.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Scott says:

      This is exactly why I wrote what I did about passion verses permanence. They are, usually, mutually exclusive. And its almost never because the man loses the spark/interest.

      Liked by 2 people

      • elspeth says:

        I did a whole series of posts on a book by European sex and relationship therapist Esther Perel, Mating in Captivity. Her entire book was cenetered around whether permanence and passion are mutually exclusive. Her working thesis was that they are, but with attention to the relationship (and some willingness to introduce k!nk into a marriage), they don’t have to be.

        The interesting thing about her book was that some of the stuff she wrote was spot on, while others were so far off-base that it almost negated my ability to believe she had valuable insights.

        But then, she does not counsel from a Christian perspective.

        Liked by 1 person

  12. cameron232 says:

    Ok, this is the comment where I utterly reverse course. At home this a.m. I was able to get on my smartphone and check out the offending site (for about 2 minutes) before rushing out the door.

    My assumption was it was a “tasteful couples porn site” possibly softcore. No, it’s a grossout, degrading porn site like you find all over the internet now. I spent all of 120 seconds there and it’s things like him jizzing on his wife’s chest, her wearing a strap on, photos of her bent over to show a beaver shot, her jacking him off, in addition to a bunch of photos of her boobs, her opening her labia for the camera, her fellating him, him pounding her. WTF? Dude’s pimping out his wife as a porn star.

    I 100% support Eternity Matters’ reaction and think if anything it was too mild. I 100% reject the idea that the girls (Elspeth and Liz) drove this reaction in some of us. Grandpa there’s messed up – hope grandkids don’t have internet connection.

    Oh, the stuff wasn’t titillating/tempting to me either not because it was a married couple but because it was nasty porn, not even “suggestive.” We don’t need marriage advice from a guy who blows his load on his wife’s belly and posts photos of it on the internet. Pics of girls are tempting to me. Pics of some guy giving grandma a pearl necklace aren’t.

    I retract my apology for distracting the discussion. The nature of site linked to distracted the discussion.

    Liked by 2 people

    • forsoothredux says:

      I have been reading here for years now, Jack. Silently, sincerely seeking to understand.

      I have lost more and more faith in masculinity and patri<>chy with the majority of posts and comments here.

      With the exception of a few, perhaps Ed Hurst*, Scott and Jason, I hold out little hope for male leadership. (Though, Jason, I’d like to see you state your opinion without the pseudo passive voice. Live loud and prosper.)

      I could never have imagined the way some people think. It’s cracked my heart a little more. (Today’s ki$k-driven po%n view is the least destructive viewing I’ve vicariously experienced here.)

      In the end visiting here has at least taught me a little more to accept what I can’t change and that perception is truly either treasure or trash.

      I am grateful the Almighty is unknowable because this creation is crazy.

      How to end? Kindness is greatly underrated.

      *Thanks Ed for your quiet voice and long view. You’ve been a demonstrable influence for clarity in this space.

      Like

      • Lastmod says:

        Sir….

        I need this place more than most actually understand. I had a severe crisis of faith in a few years back. I don’t hate Christians. I don’t want them to suffer. I actually WANT to believe, and serve…..and be a part of this. When I was a Salvationist we were told “indeed to make Heaven on Earth by his example”

        I found that example in the Salvation Army mostly talk…sure, a decent organization. They use the money people kindly give for what they state. No hate on them there. They are a humble, trustworthy organization on those matters.

        I just found myself even more depressed and lonely. Where was my joy? Where were the things the hope of the Gospel spke of? Well, according to many in this realm….”I wasn’t really saved” and I found myself feeling even being “less” of a man. I felt it was club I wasn’t going to be aloowed in. Well, if I am not allowed in this club “just as I am” and allowed to grow, why bother with it?

        I take a contraian approach at times (well, mostly) hoping to at least to make these men at least consider their actions, or what they are purporting.

        If there is no place for me in the faith as an older, never married virgin who was born with bad genetics, a lower social / maturity IQ…………what of a young man with raging hormones being told to “be a man” and yet given impossible metrics he will never meet unless he does sin with women, unless he happens to have the comeliness on a cultural standard….and to be told to have faith, but then told “there are no good women left”

        The world needs this page, badly……but christians here at TIMES forget most of the world is not at their level………sometimes….not always….not even all the time they come off as “making a movie about frogs but starring clams”

        Liked by 3 people

      • caterpillar345 says:

        Jason, I appreciate your perspective here. You seem to be the lone voice at times playing the “devil’s advocate” as it were, to engage the ideas presented without just assuming they are true. It causes others to have to defend their position and really figure out what is true. I think it is useful in the process.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Lastmod says:

        Caterpillar:

        I would encourage you to LISTEN to the fellow believers here…..in my takes on stuff, you may ignore…..or perhaps use in your witness to other men. Gone are the days of man just being told about Jesus, and he decides to drop everything and “follow him”. I won’t deny this happens, but very uncommon; well unless one does have that exceptional gift of charisma, or speaking, or leadership in these matters.

        A common phrase I heard in The Salvation Army “Jason, why are you putting God in a box?” and my reply was “Because you put him there” and I actually would mention Thomas……a man that followed Christ for years…one of the twelve…and even he had his doubts. He was told to “trust and believe” and had to have that encounter. Mind you…..his fellow disciples did little to convince him other than to say “He we saw this, he has risen!”

        Thomas can be for that man that needs convincing. Did Jesus damn him? Did he throw him into the lake of fire? NO! He convinced him of his true divine state. I believe many men never had this (myself included). We were just told by the “more important” people that this had happened, accept it. Now. As we do know afterward, Thomas took the Gospel to what is now known as India, and he was matyred there……but to this day, there is a large group of Indian Christians who do indeed believe that a man named Thomas brought the Gospel to Vedic India. No “doubt” that Thomas lived his faith in his small way, but made an impact. He just needed that convincing. That encounter. I pray for that for myself. I was tired of being made a lesser man for the fact I didn’t have this…or was not as well versed, or had a good speaking voice, or had a presence, stature and physical appearance that “commanded” and “expected” resepct. Not having these make me less of a man in the red-pill-christian sphere? That’s really on them……and at the same time…..I began to think I was indeed crazy, or less or not as good or had little to offer because I wasn’t married. A father. Didn’t have the opportunity to “spin plates” or follow x amount of steps to get a wife…….

        It hurt. Badly. The crisis came, and no “satan” did not enter…nor a hatred of the message. But some anger at the messengers. In the end I though I was going to finally have some friends and actual brotherhood, or more help of finding that mission or goal or objective in life. I found none in the faith.

        Liked by 2 people

    • Lastmod says:

      It didn’t bother me, per se….. I just found it interesting he had to let the world know he has a penis. His wife has breasts. Shocking, I know! It came off as “humblebrag” to me. “See if you put in the work, be a real man and lead, work hard… then your wife will do this, and I have the pics to prove it!”

      Maybe I am kind of numb now, and beyond the pale when it comes to sex, love or even male headship because I have accepted that “my ship has sailed.” As for the matter of if it was appropriate or not for Christendom….. I’ll let you believers debate that, and think it over.

      Liked by 2 people

      • cameron232 says:

        Oh, it was more than that.

        The reaction to the rise of gynocentric, sexless, feminist Christianity is, apparently, the rise of androcentric, porno Christianity. It’s ok because we’re in a unique crisis. The early Christians were tortured, mutilated, thrown out of windows, burned alive, had their teeth smashed out etc. but I guess they got laid.

        “The devil always sends errors into the world in pairs” – C.S. Lewis

        Liked by 3 people

      • thedeti says:

        “The devil always sends errors into the world in pairs”

        It’s so funny how those errors always manage to find each other and reproduce, too.

        Like

      • Joe2 says:

        It came off as “humblebrag” to me. “see if you put in the work, be a real man and lead, work hard…

        Because that’s what it is. I glanced at some of his earlier posts and he actually does say that men have failed because they didn’t put in the hard work or don’t want to put in the hard work like he did. He also mentions that he and his wife were high school sweethearts. Obviously, she had the tingles for him way back when they were teenagers. As a couple, they are kind of an anomaly.

        This begs the question exactly how much hard work was necessary since his starting point was with a woman who had the tingles for him at a young age compared to the hard work that may be required of a man who is married to a woman who never had the tingles and now finds himself in a sexless marriage for years? So his hard work may pale in comparison and criticism of men not wanting to put in the hard work may be misplaced.

        As an aside, the photos I saw in his earlier posts were rather tame – a breast here a breast there. He seems to have gone off the rails with the recent photos.

        Like

    • Random Angeleno says:

      Mike may have had useful things to say. But I’ll never know now.
      That’s porn, l give zero ****s about educational value.
      Married sex can be good, it’s supposed to be good, we get it, but it’s also meant to be private. Mike has his fans, he can keep them, but his pictorial content doesn’t belong here.
      Jack, do us a favor, don’t send us there again.

      Liked by 5 people

      • Sharkly says:

        So I leave Σ Frame for just a few weeks, and the rumor reaches me via another site that they’re now taking advice on how to be husbands from some porn pimping pillow-biter whose wife wears a strap-on! LOL
        I know it wasn’t very churchian of me, but I found out as my work was ending, and I just couldn’t stop laughing to myself my whole drive home.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        This is for anyone reading through the comments in the future. My references to Mike Davis, and his generous gifts of his time and wisdom learned by actually getting his wife to be submissive, are from an extensive email conversation I had with him. Because of that experience and wisdom he was able to point out some specific things from my story that would be good areas to work on. His insights and help played a crucial role in helping me improve my marriage and keeping it intact so my kids grow up with parents that actually live under the same roof and like each other.

        Mike, who Sharkly is dismissing because of the naked pictures, both of his wife and the two of them in the throes of marital acts, that Mike posts on his own blog, is a man whose marriage was not going well and figured out how to fix it. Mike focused on masculinity, took a long hard look in the mirror to see where he was falling short and began working. He saved his marriage and gave his 3 kids and intact home to grow up in with all the benefits that entails for them. He has been so effective at becoming more attractive and leading his wife that she’ll do just about anything for or with him. She was, at one point, a wife who would have sex once per week with the lights off and now is a wife that is enthusiastic about bringing him pleasure, which according to them is almost daily.

        Contrast this with Sharkly’s marriage, which is in the process of divorce. In this process his wife is doing what she can, at the very least, to limit Sharkly’s involvement with his sons. On his blog, Laughing at Feminism (link above on the sidebar of this blog), you can read about his marriage.

        I take Sharkly at his word on the details and they are excruciating to read. Going only by what is written, I can see many ways where Mike’s advice on masculinity could have been helpful to Sharkly. It’s impossible to tell if Mike’s wisdom on the topic of fixing his own marriage would have helped Sharkly be successful in fixing his or at the very least mitigated the fallout during the divorce proceedings.

        Here’s a link to a specific paragraph Sharkly wrote that is quite pertinent.

        “On about the fifth day of our honeymoon Pam suddenly announced she thought her period was starting, and that we would not be having sex for a couple weeks until it was over. I said, “Well I’m excited to get the first blow-job of my life”, to which Pam got an evil smirk on her face and told me that even though she had been happy to do that for a lot of other men, she felt it would be demeaning to do that for her husband. I reminded her that she had claimed that she had wished she had saved that all for me, and she responded by explaining to me that she did that for all those other guys because she respected them, and that she would never respect me like she had respected them. She literally said that, just like that, less than a week into our honeymoon, with an evil smirk on her face.”

        In February of 2020 my wife told me that I didn’t deserve sex with her, that she did not respect me in any way, and told me the classic, “I love you, but I’m not in love with you.” Fast forward to this past week and I got everything Sharkly wanted on his honeymoon and I didn’t have to ask for it. Mrs. Apostle acted of her own volition. This is my result from applying Mike’s wisdom regarding masculinity to my own marriage.

        So if there is an issue of contentiousness with your wife and you are having trouble with her, then who would you ask for help? Sharkly? Mike Davis? That depends on what you want help on. If you are looking for advice on what not to do, you can ask either of them, because they have both been there. If you want to know what to do to fix it … well, y’all know who you should email for advice for reasons that are more than obvious.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Elspeth says:

        RPA:

        “So if there is an issue of contentiousness with your wife and you are having trouble with her, then who would you ask for help? Sharkly? Mike Davis? That depends on what you want help on. If you are looking for advice on what not to do, you can ask either of them, because they have both been there. If you want to know what to do to fix it … well, y’all know who you should email for advice for reasons that are more than obvious.”

        That is shaky theology bordering on heresy. Surely you know that! Do evil so that good may come? That’s Churchianity 101: Pragmatic hermeneutics. Temporal happiness is all that matters.

        So every sin I committed and moral guard rail I crashed through on my way to a happy — and later Christian — marriage was A-okay. How many years I wasted wrestling with guilt and repentance!

        I have friends whom I appreciate and love, but whom I can still say to them, “You’re wrong and you need to stop that. I can’t support it.”

        These two positions are not mutually exclusive.

        Ok. That was my last word on the subject.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Elspeth – I reject your assertion that what Mike did to bring his wife into submission and what he has chosen to do with that submission are not mutually exclusive. They absolutely are. What you are clearly missing is that you can in fact easily separate what Mike chooses to do with his masculinity from if his counsel on masculinity actually works to improve marriage (it does in many cases). The emotional reaction to porn is so great that people often can’t see past it. So will I choose to lead Mrs. Apostle the way Mike has chosen to lead his wife? No. Will I apply the wisdom he shared with me about applying masculine principles to my marriage for it’s betterment? Absolutely.

        Liked by 3 people

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Elspeth – I had a thought on my run this afternoon that further clarifies what I am talking about. Your own life is an example of separating masculinity from the application of the influence and authority masculinity has.

        Your SAM, at any point, could have used his inherent masculine influence on you to prevent sin, but by your admission, he did not. The same masculine influence over you has been used to bring you under his headship in marriage where he now leads you according to biblical principles. From this it’s easy to see that SAM’s masculinity was not the issue as he’s used his masculine influence for both sin and goodness. Hence, masculinity and then how it is used are easily delineated which is why I can be grateful for Mike’s advice on masculinity and choose to apply those lessons differently to me and Mrs. Apostle.

        Liked by 3 people

      • Elspeth says:

        Since you took the time to thoughtfully reply to me RPA using my own example, I should make something clear.

        Firstly, you’re right. My husband’s initial influence on me was strong yet did not in any way prevent me from sinning. However, he wasn’t a Christian, and was not only not a Christian, but was completely and utterly unchurched. When he stepped in a church it was because someone had died or was getting married. There were a few exceptions at Easter and Christmas when he was a very young child. I was the professing believer who followed him (happily and willingly) into a sinful relationship.

        I think you are, in your zeal to be right, failing to understand the crux of this issue. I am not questioning whether or not Mike said something to you that was helpful. It is perfectly possible that he did. The problem here is, and always was, that a Christian blog, which caters to Christan readers, linked to a blog which exhibits hard core porn, and apparently endorses something called “ethical non-monogamy”.

        If you had simply stated that Mike at [whatever the name of the blog is] had offered you advice that helped you immensely, even shared some of the advice, and then skipped the linkage this would have been a non-event. Just make clear to the men (and few women) who read here that the site is NSFW and contains content that some Christians might find objectionable (click at your own risk). There was a non-controversial way to handle this which acknowledged his help, and stayed away from the kind of content that made this a thing.

        Or at least it wouldn’t have been as much of a thing. Your refusal to simply acknowledge the reality of what is espoused there, and digging in your heels to call those who expressed discomfort graceless moralists who make a mockery of the Cross by pretending we are without sin is what has caused this to ramble on as long as it did.

        Okay. Now THAT really is my final word on the subject.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Sharkly says:

        @Red Pill Apostle,
        Elspeth is right, in that you can’t judge eternal merit solely by temporal outcome. Jesus Christ had miraculous power and crowds of fans, and yet ended up being crucified after not even speaking in His own defense. Temporally that would look like failure.
        Jesus taught us:
        Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
        Following Christ is an act of faith, not a means to a fun earthly existence.

        I was already divorced, and falsely accused of being a danger to my sons, and stripped of much of my family/income/freedom, and Etc., before I went looking for, and found, the red-pill. Nor do I claim to be a relationship coach.
        Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

        Although I may appear like a temporal fool, I am however, not an eternal fool, like your mentor, Mike Davis. You would do well to take into consideration the criticism that the well meaning folks on here and elsewhere have offered you. Although I haven’t recently been to Mike’s site that you linked to, it has been reliably reported that he has posted hardcore pornographic images there, including images of his wife wearing a strap-on dildo, and it has also been reported that they claim to practice “non-monogamy”. Do not be deceived, adulterers have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.
        Ephesians 5:5 For this you know with certainty, that no sexually immoral or impure or greedy person, which amounts to an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 See that no one deceives you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

        Based upon my perusing of your post and the comments, I’m still drawing a blank as to what specifically was Mike’s advice to you that has helped you. However, I was instead offered a link to see his wife wearing a strap on dildo. LOL
        I think that is what people are trying to point out to you. That you could have just relayed the helpful information without showing us that Mike’s wife wears a strap-on during her sexual encounters.

        Bonus material:
        Although it may not be worldly wise, part of why I’m still suffering is because:
        1 Corinthians 13:7(ESV) Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
        1 Corinthians 13:7(Amplified) Love bears all things [regardless of what comes], believes all things [looking for the best in each one], hopes all things [remaining steadfast during difficult times], endures all things [without weakening].

        But, I’m also a man who has kept my own dignity, despite being in humbling circumstances. I may lose everything like my Lord, who first suffered and died a shame-filled death for me, paying for my sins, as an example for those who follow Him. According to Ephesians 5:23 I am to act as the “savior” of my wife. She may chose to leave me, take my sons, take my stuff, and subject me to servitude, but nevertheless I won’t be leading her into “non-monogamy”. If my wife inherits eternal shame and the contempt of God, it won’t be because I taught her to do evil. I have committed my sons into God’s hands while the divorce court enforces my wife’s kidnapping them from me.
        Matthew 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
        I’m on a different plan from Mike Davis. Pick the guide who is able to lead you to the destination you want to go to. If you want to head to where Mike is, follow Mike Davis. But I’m following Christ, and the way is narrow and difficult and few will find it.(Matthew 7:13-14)

        His wife wears a strap-on! LOL Figure it out buddy before you follow him! Did I mention I’ve still got my dignity and the sense to not go exposing the shame of my nakedness? Some day I will be clothed in righteousness and the lawless will see me shine resplendent as they are cast into darkness. Mock men like me if you want to now, we’ll have the last laugh.

        If Mike has some good advice, share the good advice, not his hardcore pornography.

        Liked by 3 people

      • thedeti says:

        That is shaky theology bordering on heresy. Surely you know that! Do evil so that good may come? That’s Churchianity 101: Pragmatic hermeneutics. Temporal happiness is all that matters.

        Not one bit of what RPA said was theology. It was practical advice on how an earthly fallen man deals with an earthly fallen woman in an earthly fallen marriage dealing with earthly fallen things.

        He’s not teaching about theology. He’s teaching about human relationships.

        So every sin I committed and moral guard rail I crashed through on my way to a happy — and later Christian — marriage was A-okay. How many years I wasted wrestling with guilt and repentance!

        How is Mike Davis sinning? And who are you to judge that? With all due respect, you’re a woman, trying to tell men how to be men. You’re a woman trying to tell men how to run their marriages. Sorry – if my choice is between listening to a woman tell me how to run my marriage, and a guy who puts some explicit pics on his page but who has a successful marriage, I’m going to listen to the guy. Every time.

        We listened to women. We tried it your way. It crashed and burned. So I am done listening to women on these things. If I had continued listening to women like you, I’d be divorced, just now getting done paying alimony, and probably visiting my son at juvy.

        So, yeah. I am done listening to women.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Elspeth – Graceless moralism is exactly what happened. The entire OP is about masculinity with specific examples of how expressing masculinity has helped me. Commenters saw naked pics of Mike and his wife, promptly ignored those good things Mike can teach about marriage and masculinity and then gracelessly threw the baby out with the bathwater. You don’t have to agree with what Mike choses to do, but he is honest about who he is, what he likes and he’s not afraid of people’s reactions to how he chooses to live.

        Sharkly – Bud, it’s so simple I can break it down for you in a few sentences.

        Deti had a rough marriage that was headed towards divorce and figured out a way to make it better to the point that it works. Mike Davis had a languishing marriage that was headed towards divorce, figured out how to improve himself by returning to masculine principles and now his wife is submissive to him like few wives in Christian marriages actually are. You didn’t figure it out and so I go to men who have faced very difficult circumstances and actually preserved their first marriages in an effort to learn from their experience at being successful in my work at preserving my own. God is using sinful men to help another sinful man be a better husband and have a better marriage. Since God is very clear that He hates divorce, I’d much rather have Deti’s and Mike’s results than yours.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Sharkly says:

        Red Pill Apostle,
        I’m quite happy to hear your marriage is improving, and I’m happy for all the other men who have improved their marriages.

        “Graceless moralism” … Versus what … foolish immoralism?
        Is it really a proof of your grace to leave people in danger of damnation uncorrected, or to let defilers carry on undenounced? That sounds like the “cult of niceness”.

        “You didn’t figure it out…”
        Are you implying that if men would just figure out what they’re doing wrong all marriage problems would be fixed? OK Churchian! LOL
        Some of the things you’re implying are things Dalrock expounded on. You seem to still be under the churchian impression that vagina tingles are a divine measure of a man’s virtue, as though once a man has it figured out, and is living right, his wife will automatically be a “responder” and respond properly. I happen to have many things figured out, there just isn’t much that will work in my case, in our current environment. My case is not a case of some sissified dumpy chump who just needs to be told how to be a man, or told what things work on most all women with normal thought processes. If only it was that easy!

        Of course God hates divorce, although He metaphorically got one Himself. I hate it too, and it isn’t happening by my choice, nor by some fault of mine. FWIW God hates adultery more.
        If people can’t conceive of a divorce where a man isn’t at fault, then Feminism really has a hold on their mind. Did Hosea, God’s prophet who loved a whore exactly like God loved Israel, not have it figured out? Was he just not manly enough? Did he just not value marriage enough? You seem to be preemptively ruling out that a man can have things figured out and still have his home destroyed by an evil and crazy woman. Too bad you and Mike weren’t there to give advice to God and Hosea on how to love, so they could have prevented Gomer and Israel from continuing to play the whore.
        You seem to be making some Feminist assumptions about my marriage. i.e. that as a man, I’m responsible for its failure, because I didn’t figure out how to prevent her from destroying her own home.(Proverbs 14:1) You are also discounting the possibility that I could know more than Mike about how to have a proper marriage, even though my own wife is intractable. Yes, I will admit that I certainly could have chosen better, in hindsight.

        FWIW I’ve know a lot of men who say they had absolutely horrible first marriages, and without learning much or changing much they had good later marriages just due to the fact that they later married somebody who was reasonable and could be worked with. While anecdotes are not the best proof, there is certainly a lot of evidence that a woman can mess up a perfectly good marriage just like Eve was tempted to be dissatisfied with her lot, messing up a perfect paradise. While some men may allow their marriage to be destroyed through a lack of understanding, that isn’t every man’s case. God cursed Eve for her sin, He never implied it was Adam’s fault for not figuring out how to prevent Eve from disobeying.

        Liked by 2 people

  13. Lastmod says:

    Did Jesus face evil? Did Jesus face the ugliness of his day? Did he face unpleasant situations? A different take. Ponder? Discusss? Hate on? Flame?

    Liked by 3 people

    • feeriker says:

      Well said! (and good Northern Soul background, too)!

      Liked by 1 person

      • Lastmod says:

        Thanks….I don’t script my videos, so I know I go a bit all over the place. Look, christians should be prayed up enough or confident in the faith enough to when they see porn, or something they think is pornographic to not be upset but to know right from wrong. Pearl clutching was mentioned in the comments above. Well…….yeah, but no. Perhaps, instead of being outraged or upset. The question that could have been posed is, “Has anyone asked him why he feels the need to post pics like this?”

        I mean… you guys are married……. and / or have many escapades in your own lives that probably looked like thee photos.

        Northern Soul / classic R&B and Motown is the best dance music ever. The biggest reason why I went to the UK was to dance to this music in all-nite clubs, Its HUGE there still. The dancing, the lyrics, the music are so positive, fun and give me such a release. It’s great music. Then disco came along and ruined everything 😉

        Liked by 3 people

      • cameron232 says:

        “I mean… you guys are married……. and / or have many escapades in your own lives that probably looked like thee photos.”

        I’m known for my Little House on the Prairie prudishness at least in deed if not word, so take this with a grain of salt. IMO sex should in some way express marital love. Pearl necklace and granny-tranny-weenie don’t express marital love.

        Even 30 year marriage coitus don’t belong on the WWW.

        Liked by 2 people

      • elspeth says:

        I have a boatload of papers to finish grading but before I sign off, I was reminded of this post of mine from a while ago. It illustrates a fairly stark comparison between a “primitive” understanding of sex and our Western, postmodern approach to sex. I prefer the descriptor of “fundamental” or “natural”, but the article referenced came from The Atlantic.

        Word Nerd Wednesday: Western Postmodernism’s Sexual Vocabulary

        Liked by 2 people

      • anonymous_ng says:

        “Look, christians should be prayed up enough or confident in the faith enough to when they see porn, or something they think is pornographic to not be upset but to know right from wrong.”

        This resonates. I’ve made the comment a time or two that Christians in the first century certainly weren’t living in some idyllic Christian village with no drunks, prostitutes, sailors, and heathens.

        Prostitution didn’t become illegal in the US until 1910 according to a quick search. So, houses of ill repute were probably pretty common until then.

        OH NOES!!!! PR0N!!!

        Sometimes I wonder whether God finds sexual sin to be worse than pride, vanity, and a lack of charity.

        That reminds me of the classic RCC tale of when the young man goes into church for confession and tells the priest that he’s been having sex with his girlfriend. The priest tells him to at least use a condom. The young man aghast says that the church is against contraceptives, and the priest hollers at him that the church is against premarital sex too.

        Liked by 2 people

    • cameron232 says:

      Good video lastmod. “Big, fat, fugly, Ron Jeremy” – LoL dude! You have a good sense of humor.

      The site I saw was hard core porn. I didn’t spend but a few minutes scrolling down (it seemed like a constant scrolling format). Dude pearl-necklaced her, had her wear a strap-on, explicit coitus, fellatio, masturbation and gynecologist pics of wifey-pooh. I guess it wasn’t porn if the minimum qualification for “porn” now is two or three dudes doing each orifice at the same time. Did we see the same site? Liz says they recommend a “swingers” book on the site.

      My impression (don’t know if it was said here or I noticed it there) was the pics were teasers to get you to subscribe to videos so I would assume you get the full show with subscription.

      I never had a “porn” problem either if this is what you mean by porn. “Old fashioned” Playboy porn – e.g. looking an non-gynecologist pics of beautiful women is tempting. I don’t like seeing other guys’ junk and body fluids – I have my own thanks.

      Wanking is sin of adolescence that men should really try to conquer. Good old fashioned shame and guilt helps. If you can’t, I recommend becoming catholic or orthodox and going to confession (the priest has heard it a million times) or if you’re protestant you can confess your sin to other Christian men which I think is suggested in the Epistle of James. Lutherans use formal, pastoral confession too. Men can beat this – I can’t imagine it’s as hard as a cocaine addiction.

      My usual caution about the internet (“The Land of Make Believe”). You don’t know what’s real and what’s not. Even if you exchange emails with people. Especially if people are selling things for money. Has anyone verified that this is a Christian couple with grandkids? Do you know for sure this isn’t e.g. just a 50 year old childless couple who don’t want to get real jobs. It would be much more fun to diddle my wife daily instead of spending 10 hours in a cubicle.

      Hell’s bells, I’m not even sure the Duggars are entirely real.

      Liked by 2 people

      • elspeth says:

        That’s a great point, Cam. I have met up with quite a few of my bloggy acquaintances over the years. Had one or two who live in different parts of the state over for a meal, been to their houses, too. We even had one family from the midwest here in the house for a couple of days. So whether or not I’m real isn’t a thing (enough people can verify the broad generalities of my life), but none of those people have lived with us over the long haul or had a long term friendship with me because of geography and logistics. And the same goes with me for them.

        I just assume, by default, that it is not possible for me to have a full picture of anyone’s life online OR in real life for that matter, without a very close and intimate friendship. I only have two or three of those.

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        I don’t doubt for a second you’re anything but who/what you say you are. I think every current SF commenter is who/what he says he is. From what I can tell, men are more prone to BS-ing and role play character acting online (non-profit and for-profit). But who knows.

        Liked by 1 person

    • cameron232 says:

      When you see a beautiful woman in porn there’s something psychologically painful about it. That a woman with beauty would degrade and destroy herself that way. Yeah, I know porn isn’t good for “ugly” women and “ugly” women have value too – just as much value in the spiritual sense and can have more inner beauty value than a beauty queen.

      It’s just weird because you can understand why an unattractive woman would become like that – she can get a lot of male attention that way. A beautiful woman doesn’t have to do things like that to get male attention.

      Feel guilty writing that. No woman, beautiful or not, should do that

      Liked by 1 person

    • Lastmod says:

      Not justifying porn use by Christians. I mean, is the statue of David porn? Is the Bible “pornographic” in Song of Solomon? Probably considered a bit more hot n heavy centuries ago than today. What about all the “laying with the servant” in the Bible. What about sending a man… a righteous one……. to die on the front line so one man “who god loved” could get his wife…and this man was a freaking “peeping tom voyeuristic type” to begin with. Is that pornographic? I mean…..how do you slice this. A person needs to have their own convictions, but at the same time not run for the hills if they are confronted with it.

      The word says not to “get yourself off” and it doesn’t like the sex act defiled. That could be through porn, or fornication, or adultery, and even today, we should think about keeping children safe…. secular or sacred.

      He’s married. He’s a show off for sure…… and well, will I be frequenting his page again? No. Am I envious? No. Was I aroused? No. Was I intrigued? Maybe because he was pretty bold in what he thinks he is.

      Whatever. He has a great sex life with his wife. Hope his grandkids see it one day

      Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        “Not justifying porn use by Christians. I mean, is the statue of David porn? Is the Bible “pornographic” in Song of Solomon? Probably considered a bit more hot n heavy centuries ago than today. What about all the “laying with the servant” in the Bible. What about sending a man…a righteous one…….to die on the front line so one man “who god loved” could get his wife…and this man was a freaking “peeping tom voyeuristic type” to begin with. Is that pornographic? I mean…..how do you slice this. A person needs to have their own convictions, but at the same time not run for the hills if they are confronted with it.”

        Great questions. Well put.

        Song of Solomon is highly erotic, even with all it’s metaphor and innuendo, yet is in the Bible to give all an uncensored view of the physical expression of passion God intends couples to have in marriage.

        In our conversation Mike told me he and his wife are Catholic. I’ll take him at his word and hope that me and Mrs. Apostle have that type of intimate relationship when we’re in our 50s, minus the camera of course. It’s not my thing.

        Like

      • Jack says:

        Just to point this out… the Bible has R and X rated content in prose and PG language.

        Like

  14. Pingback: Love begins where perfection ends | Σ Frame

  15. cameron232 says:

    @anonymous

    “OH NOES!!!! PR0N!!!”

    We’ve all seen porn. What’s being objected to is seeking Christian marriage counsel from a person who pimps his wife out as an internet porn star in a degrading way. And since there’s supposed to be a couple hundred lurking (presumably mostly male) readers, causing your brother to stumble probably isn’t wise either.

    “Sometimes I wonder whether God finds sexual sin to be worse than pride, vanity, and a lack of charity.”

    Sexual sins figure prominently in those that exclude people from the Kingdom of Heaven. Is that just you noodling on an idea (which is an interesting topic) , or is that a suggestion that those who judge what Mike’s doing lack charity and are proud and morally vain?

    Internet porn is rather unique to our time but I wouldn’t have suggested that a Christian man living before 1910 visit a brothel and seek relationship advice from the brothel pimp.

    @ RPA

    Hunter Biden is Catholic — Mike might be too. He has, on his website, proudly displayed pictures of things that are unambiguously defined by the Catholic Church as mortal sin . I wouldn’t seek Christian advice from someone who totally ignores his churches’ basic teaching and proudly displays it even if you disagree with those teachings.

    I hope you have a healthy marital sex life. (Your story has made me very upset on your behalf.) I hope when you are in your 50s you aren’t taking pictures of her bending over and displaying her cervix for the camera, she isn’t wearing your semen on her torso and wearing a fake, strap-on penis on, presumably in obedience to your headship.

    @ Jack,

    The Holy Scriptures aren’t pornography, Mike’s site is.

    I’m think I’m going to punch out in terms of site participation or at least scale way back. Not out to make a scene/protest, just because it’s obvious I don’t fit in belief-wise. Honestly, all you get out of me is comment quantity not quality anyway. I may lurk a bit to keep up on Elspeth and Jason. I feel like there’s good work going on to bring Jason into the sense of camaraderie, friendship and brotherhood that was clearly lacking for him in earlier versions of the ‘sphere. And it would be cool to get updates on Oscar and Scott’s family. Most guys here seem to have serious relationship problems and they may benefit from what you’re trying to do here – I’m not really gaining much since I’m in a pretty good marriage. Also there’s a sense that if I object I’m getting in the way of important work being done, yet it’s hard for me to not express an opinion on something like this.

    Liked by 2 people

  16. Joe2 says:

    “Prostitution didn’t become illegal in the US until 1910 according to a quick search. So, houses of ill repute were probably pretty common until then.”

    That’s true, but from 1980 to 2009 Rhode Island decriminalized indoor prostitution. This occurred because in 1980 the Rhode Island General Assembly changed the prostitution laws in an attempt to make them more specific. In the process, they created a legislative “loophole” that lasted almost 30 years that outlawed soliciting on the street, but essentially made indoor prostitution legal.

    Anyone who had functioning brain cell knew what was going on; it was no secret that indoor sex work was alive and well, especially in Providence — for almost 30 years!

    I’m not aware of any Christian outrage. Apparently, Christians didn’t seem to care.

    Like

  17. feeriker says:

    “Song of Solomon is highly erotic, even with all it’s metaphor and innuendo, yet is in the Bible to give all an uncensored view of the physical expression of passion God intends couples to have in marriage.”

    Show of (virtual) hands: Who here has EVER heard a pastor deliver a sermon on the Song of Solomon?

    Yes, OF COURSE that was a rhetorical question …

    Liked by 3 people

  18. Jack says:

    There’s a lot of fire and brimstone here, which would be quite appropriate if RPA was a renegade maverick PUA who’s laying hundreds of chicks a year. But most men these days aren’t like this. The men who read this site aren’t like this. Mike isn’t like this either. Most men are struggling just to have a normal sex life with their wives (if they even have one) and keep their marriage intact. The thing that most men need is direction and encouragement, not warnings of eternal hellfire.

    This is exactly what I was getting at in Friday’s post, On the Discernment of Desire. A relevant excerpt is copied here.

    “This misaligned concept of desire and the accompanying fear of sin is firmly entrenched within Christian circles and doctrines. It is reinforced by Biblical passages, and backed with sound reason. But thinking primarily in terms of sin rather than glorification would indicate that fear, guilt, or shame remains outstanding. To be honest, it is too easy to focus on the fear, “What if I sin…?”, and the resulting shame and ignominy, and cling to this fear so firmly that one neglects the opposing aspect of “What if I could find a new Life in Christ?” Ultimately, we choose to cling to our fears, rather than seeking out and developing the Life that our faith in Christ might deliver ourselves.”

    The larger point of the two posts covering my personal experience with discernment, which maybe I didn’t make very clear, is that the kitchen heats up when food is being prepared. That is to say, when you get closer to God, you’ll face a lot more intense battles with tests, trials, and temptations. Accusations and persecutions also come with the territory. But that is no reason to not get closer to God. Instead, it is an indicator that you’re heading in the right direction.

    I think every man comes to a point in his life where he has to do some really dirty stuff to fulfill his duty to those in his care and remain true to his God ordained mission in life. Think of soldiers on a battlefield (which is what Christian men are in the spiritual sense). No one blames such a man for being immoral. No, we laud him as being a hero. RPA came to this point when he asked Mike for marital advice. I’m doing that by hosting this controversial blog. We might even think of this as a rite of passage. “To what lengths is a man willing to go, to get the job done?” For the Christian man, it doesn’t glorify God for him to shirk his duty and his calling because he is too afraid to get his hands dirty.

    In saying these things, I am not condoning Mike’s specific actions that have sensationalized this comment section. I am commending RPA for doing what he had to do to get control over his household and marriage, which I believe is God’s will for the married man.

    Liked by 3 people

    • thedeti says:

      And:

      Women do not get to tell men how to be men. Women do not get to sit back and judge what we men need to do to get our houses in order.

      Liked by 3 people

    • Liz says:

      Jack, I will never post on your forum again so no need to ban me (but feel free if needed).
      I’m not giving advice to men on how to be men here. Just trying to offer some sanity with a little thinking exercise. Imagine this topic (the porn husband/wife team) on Jerry Springer. Would it receive applause or condemnation?
      This is rhetorical, I think we all know there would be mass applause.
      Not everything that gets pushback either Godly or appropriate. I think the analogy to a soldier (as the mother of a military member, wife of a military member, daughter of a military member) is incredibly inappropriate as well (and kinda insulting).
      Just saying my peace.
      Hope you all live long, well, and have happy marriages.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Elspeth says:

        Up until today, I had never even looked at the site in question, although I admit I read the link response. Thank goodness, I was able to read the article without being at all assaulted by any imagery. If I were on a computer, I may not have been so fortunate.

        The basic rebuttal was, “Didn’t Jesus have something to say about being ‘judgy’?” ROFL!! Okay, that is weak. In no era ever before this, have men with any kind of theological knowledge, conviction, or principles EVER asserted that “Judge not” meant there are no common standards of Christian decency. Jason has the right of it with his description: “No harm to me… though this behavior is “chick behavior” for sure. Whatever.” Typical churchian deflection.

        My absence after this is probably for the best, but to be clear, it’s not due to any kind of reaction to our recent conversation. As it happens, I’m on the cusp of a three month blog-hopping sabbatical. Less chatter, more silence and prayer, for the fourth quarter of 2021. I’ll post on my blogs, but they are super duper quiet, and not as exciting, which is what I need currently.

        I do want to say though before my exit, that the notion that women drove this entire debacle is a lie; a bold and blatant one. I think that dishonesty bothers me more than the whole pron thing. If the tactic is to blame women even for minor skirmishes that we clearly had nothing to do with, that’s telling as well…

        Best wishes to all of you. I truly pray God’s blessings on your homes, marriages and every endeavor.

        Liked by 2 people

  19. Jack says:

    Update: Mike has written a response to the clamor which clears up some questions that have been raised. Remember, Mike’s site is NSFW.

    Marriage Sex and More: Why All the Hate? (2021-09-27)

    Like

  20. Lastmod says:

    Call me dumb I have no idea what NSFW means. I read his reply. He just likes to brag. Glad he has a sex life, glad he is “man” enough to post pics of himself, glad he has a good marriage. The best reply he could have done…. was indeed none.

    I wasn’t offended by the pics. I just smirked and thought, “humblebrag”, meaning, “Ssee what I have and you don’t” kind of thing. No harm to me… though this behavior is “chick behavior” for sure. Whatever. No skin off me.

    Liked by 2 people

    • thedeti says:

      NSFW = Not Safe For Work

      Like

    • Lastmod says:

      Jesus was not some athletic Adonis, in the OT says the “messiah” will have no “comeliness about him that we would be attracted to him”.

      When I mentioned it was a “chick thing” to do, meaning that usually, mostly women will post pics of themselves… camera “up” and cleavage exposed. Lots of butts in yoga pants. Halter tops, pin up shots… and I am sure on “OnlyFans” and countless other sites, you get a glimpse. This seems to be more of a behavior by women than men…. that is why I said it.

      Whatever.

      Like

    • Random Angeleno says:

      NSFW indeed.

      Sure the Bible has some juicy stuff in it and not just in the Song of Solomon, but it’s written, not pictorial. Pictorially, there are plenty of more tasteful nudes out there. I’ve seen Michelangelo’s David in Florence. Many paintings and statues featuring bare breasts. No problem with that sort of thing. And then there’s hard core porn. I don’t need to be seeing that and I don’t want to wade through it just to read the good articles. Sure, this is is Jack’s blog, Jack’s rules, but why should I have to view porn in order to read good content for men?

      Liked by 1 person

  21. Lastmod says:

    The 19 second mark kind-of fits all of this! LOL!

    Like

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