Dealing with Discernment

Developing discernment can be a crisis of faith all by itself.

Readership: Christians
Reader’s Note: * Some proper names have been changed.
Length: 1,750 words
Reading Time: 6 minutes

Introduction

In a previous post, 8 Things that Increase Discernment (2021-06-25), we looked at the nature and importance of discernment, and how it enables wisdom, faith, trust, and certain elements of prosperity. In this post, I want to express what it is like to experience an increase in discernment.

In 2019-2020, I experienced a drastic increase in my spiritual discernment. Although readers might think this to be a good thing, in fact, this sudden information overload threw me into a quagmire of confusion.

This post will recount some of my thoughts, feelings, and experiences from this time, most of which is taken from my private journal. These passages are intended to convey some of the challenges and issues of confusion that arise from having a sudden increase in discernment, and are not intended to offer any rationally based doctrinal consistency.

Excerpts

I’ve been meeting Pastor Dan* about once a month for the past year. During our talks I’ve learned that discernment and wisdom go hand in hand, and based on James 1:5-8, he urged me to pray for more discernment. One of the first things God gave me was this verse about discernment.

12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”

Hebrews 5:12-14 (NKJV)

Seeing how I am a professor, this verse hit me in a raw place.

A young and precocious boy is ready to teach you about new theories.

This week, I have noticed an increase in my spiritual discernment. It’s really hard to suddenly start sensing new things. One thing that is troubling me is the realization of how much I have missed out on in life as a result of not having any discernment. I no longer regret the things I used to regret, and instead, I have all these new regrets about things that I never imagined I would regret, many of which I didn’t have much control over. For instance, I regret not calling my Dad on his birthday earlier this year, even though he could not have taken my call anyway, because he was on vacation. Why do I regret this?


Lately I’ve been writing a post about sanctification and defilement (2020-11-15). I’ve been studying defilement for almost two years now, so I understand it fairly well, but I’m discovering that I don’t understand sanctification at all. I’m also struggling with understanding the basic concepts of adultery and marital fraud – I mean, everybody knows it’s a sin “because the Bible says so”, but why? How? Nobody can explain that. I know it’s related to sanctification and defilement, but it’s hard to see it clearly.

I mean, why does it appear so strongly to me, that Roosh’s life of fornication was a necessary part of a long messy process that eventually led to his salvation? How does this glorify God? How can sin result in sanctification? If anyone makes any kind of statement to this effect, or puts their finger on the fact that many ex-PUAs have turned to God, then they are, more or less, condemned as a lawless heretic and excommunicated from nice Churchian society. Meanwhile, the proponents of purity have renounced their faith, women in the church are secretly selling their V card to the highest SMV bidder, and the holy roller incels are singing in the corner, reciting their scriptures, and then they go home to drain their aching balls on MILF p0rn. And we call this church! It just seems so obvious that Roosh was headed in the right direction, although this notion flies in the face of my understanding of scripture. I can’t explain why, other than Roosh was creating a disturbance in The Force which drew a Cosmic reaction.

28 “But what do you think?  A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, Son, go work today in the vineyard.’  29 But he replied, ‘I do not want to.’  Yet afterward he regretted it and went.  30 And the man came to his second son and said the same thing; and he replied, ‘I will, sir’; and yet he did not go.  31 Which of the two did the will of his father?”  They said, “The first.”  Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you.”

Matthew 21:28-31 (NASB)

…and PUAs.

Applying this same question to myself, why do I feel so certain that if I had engaged in more sexual experimentation when I was younger, then my spiritual maturity, faith, and confidence would be so much stronger now than it is? If these things were a necessary part of “hitting bottom” and “finding God”, then why did I try so hard to avoid fornicating as much as I did?  All my righteousness is but filthy rags. (Isaiah 64:6) This vexes me with regrets — not about wrongdoing, but about doing the right thing! This is too incredible! Maybe if I had the discernment back then that I have now, I would have willingly embraced the helpless state of my desire and ran that way. This troubles me, because I keep having the idea that my previous lack of discernment indicates that perhaps I am (or was?) not redeemed… or sanctified… or whatever. It’s waaay too confusing for me to take it all in.


I’ve been praying for discernment for a while, and during this time, I’m starting to sense some things from people. At first, the “information” I got from this increased discernment made me angry, and I wasn’t sure why. I prayed about this, and God told me that I’m having a crisis of faith. But I didn’t understand what the crisis is about. But as my discernment continued to improve, I started to get some impressions that seemed to “fit” together with other experiences I had, and I was able to form some vague conclusions, like an abstract version of inductive reasoning. It’s hard to put into words, but it’s like I am more aware of people’s spiritual constitution, and most of it is pretty ugly, although I cannot put my finger on why. It makes me not want to get very close to most people. But once in a while, I’ll meet a person who has a “halo”, for lack of a better description, and these people never fail to create a memorable impression on me. It is interesting to find that the people who have a “halo” don’t seem aware of it, and apparently they don’t subscribe to any sort of religious beliefs that would explain this. Some of them seem quite worldly according to my previous methods of estimation.

Pastor Dan* asked me what seems different since my discernment improved. I told him it’s a lot easier to read people. I used to think that Christians were not much different from non-Christians, because their behavior is really not that much different. Only a few “super-Christians” really display real Christ-likeness, and I’ve only met a few people like this in my entire life. But lately, my discernment has been revealing people’s desire. It strikes me as appearing like a “halo” in my impression. They seem to “glow” with passion and joyful enthusiasm. These people seem glorified and alive, while other people are kind of dead on the inside. As for the latter, their mind is working, their mouths are talking, but there’s nothing happening on a deeper level. Nothing can switch on the headlights of their souls. It’s like I’m living in a zombie world, like what is so popular in movies and video games lately. So far, I haven’t been able to connect these observations to faith or Christianity, but I am guessing this has something to do with their relationship to God.

I am also grieving about my marriage, because my wife appears to be one of the zombies on speed. It’s like she is very emotionally alive, but all her swooning antics don’t create any perturbation in “The Force”. I never noticed this about her before, and seeing her this way now makes me very disappointed with her, and with marriage in general. I’ve begun to think I made a very poor choice in a wife, adding yet another regret to my repertoire. But at the time we got married, I had the sense that God was urging me to choose her. Now I doubt this, and I really don’t know why I had this idea. Was it just my sexual desire, or ego fulfilment? I can’t really say now, because everything seems so different.

28 Then Peter began to say to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You.”
29 So Jesus answered and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel’s, 30 who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time — houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions — and in the age to come, eternal life.”

Mark 10:28-30 (NKJV); c.f. Matthew 19:29

Concluding Statements

As you can see from these excerpts, waking up to the awareness of a new spiritual dimension is a grand mal soul reset. This awareness creates a 5 dimensional frame with its own contexts and nuances through which all of life is viewed and is therefore experienced as a sublime yet grotesque reality. I always thought I understood these things, but after becoming acutely aware of certain metaphysical realities, I began to wonder how much of the spiritual aspect of reality I truly understood.

In my profession as a teacher, I often meet students who are afraid of asking a question because they are afraid to look stupid in front of their peers. Likewise, people who ask questions like, “What is sanctification?” or “Why is fornication a sin?”, may seem wholly ignorant or naïve on the surface. They might even seem like a troublemaker or a heretic. But on the other hand, if that person is experiencing a real time discernment of these matters, then it would be ignorant and naïve of us, even pharisaical, to scorn them to shame for their apparent stupidity. After all, they have a 5-D view, and may very well be on the threshold of the Kingdom.

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About Jack

Jack is a world traveling artist, skilled in trading ideas and information, none of which are considered too holy, too nerdy, nor too profane to hijack and twist into useful fashion. Sigma Frame Mindsets and methods for building and maintaining a masculine Frame
This entry was posted in Authenticity, Boundaries, Choosing a Partner or Spouse, Conserving Power, Desire, Discerning Lies and Deception, Discernment, Wisdom, Fundamental Frame, Glory, Holding Frame, Introspection, Legalism, Manosphere, Maturity, Personal Growth and Development, MGTOW, Incels, Models of Failure, Models of Success, Prayer, Relationships, Rites of Passage, Sanctification & Defilement, Self-Concept, The Power of God, Vetting Women. Bookmark the permalink.

100 Responses to Dealing with Discernment

  1. info says:

    This halo is definitely the result of the work of the Holy Spirit in their hearts. Gods Spirit inevitably bears fruit.

    Liked by 2 people

  2. Scott says:

    Although I did not spend a decade or more travelling the world and then writing books about all the different sexual conquests I racked up in those places, I do know that by 16 I had completely jettisoned any notions of Christian sexual morality from my mind. I believed (like pretty much everyone) that sex and romantic love are what sanctified marriage.

    And as much as I hate to admit it, regardless of what our Bibles and the church supposedly teach us, marriage is nothing like it was in the OT, or even in the first century. Like, nearly unrecognizable.

    The long, slow grind of what has become is a function of many factors, not the least of which are these: Our time horizon (avg life expectancy was like 40 100 years ago) and relative opulence compared to people who lived back then.

    We now have the luxury (and time) of meeting people and sampling those people as a sort of sexual buffet until you make a connection that feels like “the one” and then proceed to have discussions about possibly marrying, maybe or maybe not having kids, negotiating with each other for needs within that framework and then ending it if it doesn’t work out. Then, trying again with a new dish from the buffet.

    There is a very high probability that I will not ever be able to reconcile my actual lived life verses what I am told is “marriage.”

    Add to that the fact that a significant portion of the men who read post around here were simply shut out from that process through no fault of their own and I feel somewhat as Cameron does–quite despondent.

    So, if you had lived a life like Roosh, or me, or something in between I don’t think you would be any less confused.

    Liked by 7 people

  3. “But on the other hand, if that person is experiencing a real time discernment of these matters, then it would be ignorant and naïve of us, even pharisaical, to scorn them to shame for their apparent stupidity.”

    Great point. We should meet people where they are — that is, where they really are (i.e., if they are faking it, then we’ll be able to discern that and move on, but if they are sincere then we should be patient).

    “Applying this same question to myself, why do I feel so certain that if I had engaged in more sexual experimentation when I was younger, then my spiritual maturity, faith, and confidence would be so much stronger now than it is?”

    I wouldn’t spend time on hypotheticals like that. God may have spared you from damaging others, being involved in pregnancies and abortions, diseases, etc. Just be glad that in God’s perfect timing you are saved now, and follow Jesus from here.

    Liked by 3 people

    • Jack says:

      “God may have spared you from damaging others, being involved in pregnancies and abortions, diseases, etc. Just be glad that in God’s perfect timing you are saved now, and follow Jesus from here.”

      Yes, I think this may be the divine reason I didn’t realize these things until much later in life.

      Like

  4. “But at the time we got married, I had the sense that God was urging me to choose her. Now I doubt this, and I really don’t know why I had this idea.”

    That’s a broad topic touching on decision making and the will of God and “hearing” from God. Among orthodox people (i.e., those truly believing the essentials but differing on non-essentials), I find that to be the #1 area for sloppy thinking and bad decisions. I used to think He worked like that until I became “red-pilled” about how He really speaks to us – through his word! Books like “Jesus Calling” are blasphemous garbage and mislead millions (not that you read it, just that it is a perennial best-seller and countless church-goers think it is legitimate).

    If He is not speaking to you outside the Bible, there is nothing to hear. If He is speaking to you, there is no way you could miss it. So study the word, seek wisdom, and live in freedom. You don’t need clues from God as to whether she is “the one.”

    Liked by 4 people

    • In other words, this is one of the most important things to get right when it comes to discernment. Kevin DeYoung has a great book on this — Just Do Something: A Liberating Approach to Finding God’s Will. (Link goes to Amazon.)

      And at the risk of a shameless plug, I did a video on this covering the many ways people get it wrong, then I show the biblical model for wise decision making. (Link goes to a video on Rumble.)

      Eternity Matters: Decision Making and the Will of God (2021-07-26)

      [Jack: It’s not shameless. It’s right on topic. Thanks for sharing this.]

      Liked by 3 people

    • Scott says:

      I do believe that Jack is on record as believing that he receives some form of extrabiblical guidance.

      Liked by 1 person

      • I always concede that God could speak to you outside the Bible, but there are zero verses supporting the concept that He will or that it is normative for all believers. And every example in the Bible was a clear, supernatural, unmistakable intrusion. There weren’t nudges and such. And the Bible is full of guidance on the “wisdom model” — i.e., ask for wisdom, read the wisdom of Proverbs and other sections, the early church was told to solve problems themselves, etc.

        And not picking on him, because I’ve done the same thing in the past, but he noted that he thought God was speaking to him but now realizes He probably wasn’t. That’s the very thing I try to help people avoid. We can convince ourselves of all sorts of things if we rationalize that it is God’s idea.

        Liked by 2 people

      • And if you really want supernatural guidance, do the fleece test as Gideon did. But you must ask for a supernatural sign for the yes and the no. Ask him to levitate a chair for the yes, and to levitate a table for the no, or something like that. When He doesn’t do either, the “sign” is that you should decide based on his moral will, using wisdom (the Bible, counsel from others, etc.), and your personal preferences.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        This is the norm in popular Evangelical Christianity. If you sincerely pray then God has spoken in whatever decision you made because God wouldn’t fail to answer a sincere prayer.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Scott says:

        Truth is I don’t really have an opinion about it anymore. I used to try to argue that the only way to know Truth is from what is written in the canonical texts but I am not sure now.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        Where I’m at today is the de fide teachings of the church which for me is basically the summary of Trent + the two de fide teachings of Vatican 1. The “pillar of truth” has to have an identifiable truth.

        Just my personal statement of faith.

        Like

    • info says:

      If it’s a vague feeling it’s not from God. But if God really speaks. Apparently he is unmistakable.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Jack says:

      “I find that to be the #1 area for sloppy thinking and bad decisions.”

      Yes, I hope that our discussion of these matters might help us make some progress in this area. What we know now is infinitely better than what we had 20+ years ago. Even so, I find the current advice about vetting and marriage management is insufficient for making a good decision about who to marry. For example, even though Deep Strengths list of vetting qualifications, Scott’s axiom, and Deti’s techniques are quite helpful, these are merely adaptations to the current malaise, and won’t necessarily lead to successful (i.e. sanctified) marriages and families. I don’t think we really understand what we should be looking for.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Scott says:

        Yes, and even though that axiom was 100% met in my first marriage, I ended up divorced against me will as the hamster spun and spun justifying her leaving with no actual reasons (no adultery, no violence, no yelling, no addictions, nothing.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Scott says:

        And it may be a colossal conceit of mine, (I pray not)

        But I would be surprised if the works of what we now call “the manosphere” were not one day collated and canonized into some kind of formal warning text. Might not be for several hundred years.

        I’m, of course talking about Dalrock, Sunshine Mary, and others. But I’m even a little bit proud of some of the stuff I wrote on The Courtship Pledge, Western Philosophy and Eastern Faith, and Morally Contextulized Romance.

        All of this stuff is a blue print for how not to let the men of your civilization be led around by their collective “small heads” and a warning about what happens if they do.

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        @Scott. I’ve seen your comments on what happened to you since Dalrock.

        My impression formed since then is that not having children with her played a significant role in what happened.

        Yeah I know you told her from the start you didn’t want them.

        Like

  5. lastholdout says:

    I see discernment as a byproduct of sanctification, and sanctification a result of at least a couple of things: 1) studying and knowing the Word (gaining wisdom) and 2) working through trials and tribulations while holding fast to your faith. God will reveal to you what He wants you to see and only what you can handle.

    FWIW, Matthew Henry provides some insight to Hebrews 5:12-14 [Emphasis added]:

    IV. The apostle shows how the various doctrines of the gospel must be dispensed to different persons. There are in the church babes and persons of full age (v. 12-14), and there are in the gospel milk and strong meat. . . . (5.) There are spiritual senses as well as those that are natural. There is a spiritual eye, a spiritual appetite, a spiritual taste; the soul has its sensations as well as the body; these are much depraved and lost by sin, but they are recovered by grace. (6.) It is by use and exercise that these senses are improved, made more quick and strong to taste the sweetness of what is good and true, and the bitterness of what is false and evil. Not only reason and faith, but spiritual sense, will teach men to distinguish between what is pleasing and what is provoking to God, between what is helpful and what is hurtful to our own souls.

    Henry seems to hint at what is the end-game of discernment – the bolded text. It is to be focused on keeping to the narrow way (Matt 7:14) in developing our own holiness. Part of keeping to the narrow way is sensing the spiritual state of others and steering clear of those who will negatively affect your holiness, e.g., “I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators” (1 Cor. 5:9). I don’t know if you can carry discernment much further than that without looking like a Pharisee.

    Liked by 2 people

  6. Ed Hurst says:

    On the one hand, there is much I regret in my life. On the other hand, I came to faith very early (aged 9) and it took a permanent hold then. Thus, my track has been quite different, in that some failures were foreclosed before I got to them. I experimented with romance, but not sex. My wife is my one and only sex partner, and if she dies anytime soon, that won’t change.

    But the result of all the other scars and skid marks on my soul is a wholesale rejection of the world in which I live today. The practical matters of how separate I can become is another matter; I’m an alien in today’s Western society. I have no interest in preserving anything from this civilization; there’s nothing that justifies me trying to make it better. As much as possible, I want to breathe fresh life into something else entirely, something I perceive to be from God’s earlier efforts to reveal Himself.

    That doesn’t mean I have nothing useful to say about where we are today. It just means my answers tend to be rather extreme, and I am fully aware of that.

    Liked by 3 people

  7. Rock Kitaro says:

    This is awesome, Jack. Well done. One of the coolest things about being alive is that there’s no perfection, no end to how much you can improve and better yourself.

    Liked by 3 people

  8. dpmonahan says:

    I think a big part of discernment is humility; pride makes it impossible to see the truth about yourself, so if you want to discern you have to be humble.
    Regarding the church incel: he imagines that if he is a good boy then God will reward him with a wife.

    Is the church incel virtuous? In some ways, maybe, but he lacks the strength (Fortitude) to grow up and make decisions for himself (Prudence) — decisions which may come out wrong, i.e. he tries to palm off the risks of life on God.

    These guys go on a lot about discernment too, because they want a sure thing, a magic bullet. I don’t think that is what discernment is.

    Liked by 7 people

    • Red Pill Apostle says:

      “Regarding the church incel: he imagines that if he is a good boy then God will reward him with a wife.

      Is the church incel virtuous?”

      The way the incel is painted in the statement is most certainly not virtuous. Within the statement is a subtle, yet very important tell of the person’s heart. In this instance the incel has entered a covert contract with God, becoming a modern example of prodigal son’s older brother.

      It’s quite natural in the west, and to some extent we all have to watch for this tendency in ourselves, to think that following the rules obligates God to reward in a certain way. Too often assume the rewards will be temporal and carnal in nature, instead of finding joy in pleasing our creator.

      Liked by 3 people

      • Lexet Blog says:

        Nail on the head re covert contracts. They believe they will receive blessings solely because they do what they are told.

        There are parables in the Bible that address this, and they are very hard to address. Why do the wicked get forgiven and rewarded when the obedient son gets nothing?

        Liked by 1 person

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        Lexet – Keller’s book on the parable of the prodigal son gives a good analysis of the parable. Of the two brothers in the parable both are quite wicked but show their wickedness in different ways. The son whose wickedness is so public, as to be obvious to all, represents the tax collectors and sinners Jesus is eating with. The outwardly obedient son represents the Pharisees who are talking about Jesus’ dinner company. Jesus, in typical fashion, cuts to the heart of the Pharisees and exposes the wickedness indwelling them. We don’t know what happens to the older brother, but we do know the younger brother is forgiven. The exasperation of the older brother is explained well by the sheep and the goats parable (Matt 25) or “Jacob I loved but Esau I hated” (Rom 9).

        Liked by 2 people

      • Lastmod says:

        In the prodigal son, the Father says to the older brother, “All I have is yours”. I don’t take that as being being “not” forgiven.

        So why have “the law” or “the commandments”? Why even have the whole freaking Bible if “Jesus uses wicked people and forgives them.”

        You guys to me sound like you are justifying YOUR bad behavior and “damming” everyone else, or looking to somehow connect anyone who may indeed be living a holy life as “blue pilled”.

        I don’t like this.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        I’m terrible at this theology thing but I think Christians discern, in principle, God’s positive (examples:miracles, the incarnation) will and God’s permissive (example: people acting as free willed agents) will. God created people in his image with free will because only free willed creatures can love. True love cannot be coerced or programmed into a machine.

        So this is the sense in which God “uses ” people and their sins. God works with the free willed decisions of his creation.

        Like

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        “In the prodigal son, the Father says to the older brother, “All I have is yours.” I don’t take that as being being “not” forgiven.

        So why have “the law” or “the commandments”? Why even have the whole freaking Bible if “Jesus uses wicked people and forgives them”?”

        You’re right lastmod, the father does say, “All I have is yours”, and Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees so it is entirely possible that the older brother is both someone God called to be one of His children and still show deep sinfulness in his heart. The Pharisees were Jews so the covenants were theirs as was the lineage of Christ. Yet their hearts were hardened to God’s grace and this shows in their motivation for pious performance.

        The Pharisees completely missed the concept of Matthew 9:13 (Jesus: I desire mercy not sacrifice) and they lived as close to letter of the law as humanly possible as a means of getting into heaven. They missed that they were sinners on the level of the son who squandered his Father’s inheritance. They also did not understand that God has mercy on those He has mercy and this is not human performance based. The thief that Jesus extends God’s grace to in Luke 23 is a good example of this. He’s an obvious law breaker and was unrepentant until he was dying on a cross and yet Jesus is quite clear he’ll spend eternity in heaven.

        This brings us to the question of why does the law even exist if Jesus uses wicked people for His purposes and forgives them? The law and the commandments point out our flaws. They tell us where we fall short of God’s standard every moment of every day of our existence. For the person trying to work their way into heaven an increasing awareness of the law is a burden that is crushing. The outcomes of trying to follow the law perfectly are either arrogant legalism or dejection stemming from inadequacy that leads many to walk away from faith and often to become angry at the faith itself because of the seeming unfairness of it all.

        But there is another reason that people joyfully follow the law to the best of their abilities, obviously fail and yet are not overburdened by it’s requirements. There is a reason that Jesus said, “For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” in Matt 28:30. He is clearly talking about Himself as fulfilling every single stroke of the law for those He was sent to redeem. If someone responds to this gift and it’s cost with the heart attitude that they can live anyway they want their entire lives and then claim Jesus at the end to get into heaven, they are living with a heart attitude that embodies the transactional view of faith just like the Pharisees had. The reason that people try to obey the law is out of a deep sense of gratefulness for a gift they don’t deserve, can’t earn and was given to them to save them from being eternally separated from their creator, the ramifications of which, given the evils of this world, I try not to contemplate too deeply.

        Liked by 1 person

      • info says:

        “The outcomes of trying to follow the law perfectly are either arrogant legalism or dejection stemming from inadequacy that leads many to walk away from faith and often to become angry at the faith itself because of the seeming unfairness of it all.”

        Even the Pharisee Legalism is a failure to uphold the Law:

        “3 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You pay tithes of mint, dill, and cumin. But you have disregarded the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.”

        Even the “Letter of the Law” was violated. Not to mention their loopholing of the Law thereby breaking the Letter of the Law whilst deliberately blinding themselves to it:

        “You neatly set aside the command of God to maintain your own tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ 11 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, ‘Whatever you would have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), 12 he is no longer permitted to do anything for his father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by the tradition you have handed down. And you do so in many such matters.””

        Like

      • info says:

        When Jesus is accusing the Pharisees of not doing Justice and works of Mercy he is referring to this part of the Law:

        Jeremiah 22:3

        “This is what the LORD says: Administer justice and righteousness. Rescue the victim of robbery from the hand of his oppressor. Do no wrong or violence to the foreigner, the fatherless, or the widow. Do not shed innocent blood in this place.”

        1 Samuel 15:22

        “And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.”

        Like

      • info says:

        Micah 6:7-8

        “7 Would the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I present my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? 8 He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you but to act justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.”

        Like

  9. Lastmod says:

    Eh…. disagree on some level. If God indeed throughout the scriptures talked about fornication as “wrong” or a “sin”, and then Roosh comes before God and is saved now, and became “sanctified” through his sinful behavior, then just do what you want and “let god work on you in his time”.

    Sounds like the worn out “God knows my heart” nonsense I heard in church for a decade. Just do what you want and “Let God work on you” and on “His time”.

    The last straws of a scoundrel are usually patriotism, and running to God.

    I am happy for the fact Roosh has renounced his past, and he said it is wrong. Why are people still quoting him then on his amazing “game / red pill / looks don’t matter” nonsense?

    What I don’t like is that he is now being hailed as some sort of “expert” on Christianity. I spent twelve years in the faith, and I still was considered an addict. Did God use my past sins of this to “glorify Him”?

    The answer is “no” and I still wasn’t trusted because of my past. Roosh is being hailed in Christian circles because he was a “player”, and men for the most part measure their lives on their sexual prowess (how many, how hot, how much, how awesome woman in question was…..).

    If indeed, God wanted me back to Him…… He wants this for all….. He will not use sinful destructive behaviors as an example for all to follow to come to him. People who do come to Him through this should be looked at as “what God can indeed do” but not as “God wanted him to live like this so He could be glorified”.

    Liked by 3 people

    • cameron232 says:

      I’m not convinced either his old persona or his new are real. I’m not convinced he slept with 1000 chicks or that his Orthodoxy is sincere. It’s possible he is and has always been a internet LARPer, grifter, book and clickbait salesman, etc. These internet celebrities – I don’t know.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Red Pill Apostle says:

      Lastmod,

      “I spent twelve years in the faith, and I still was considered an addict. Did God use my past sins of this to “glorify him”?”

      The short answer to your question is yes, and your comment very well could be an example of your past sins being used by God. This is a blog that Christian men read and your comments, at the least, have spurred debate and thought. Most certainly, your life experience and your opinions on matters expressed here and elsewhere have caused people to consider their faith, their positions on matters and to further research topics they were once certain about.

      You may not see it in yourself, but it is there. In Roosh’s case, the concept of Romans 8:28 is easier for more people to see because of his profile both prior to and after his conversion.

      Like

      • Lastmod says:

        Fair enough. Your reply was thought provoking…..now, I can “agree” that when I came to Faith…it would be a testament of “what god can do” and there probably should be “rejoicing” over this.

        But did he let me be an alcohol abuser and an addict so I could glorify him? He made me this way? He wanted me to be an alcoholic and an addict? Doubtful.

        What if I had died of an overdose before “coming to my senses” would god then be glorified? The answer is no. What if I had died in a car crash from alcohol…and killed other people without “knowing him” or “before repenting” so to speak? Eternity in hell? Or did he know “my real heart” and “he was just an alcoholic, he meant well”?

        No.

        What is being purported with the example of Roosh is that it is setting up a “two-tiered” christian faith. God creates wicked people, and then they become “holy” and they should eb the example the rest follow. Others were born / raised in the faith or were not fornicators or addicts, or murderers, or felons……they stiull struggle with sin…..but their testimony is not is good or as strong or as impressive of that of Roosh.

        Paul was a chief of sinners. A murderer. A horrible man. Yes, he mentioned it but his actions AFTER made him into what Christ wants for all. You mean to tell me, a man like Saul (before he became Paul)…god wanted him to murder, and be this way?

        What of the murdered people Saul sentenced? Their loved ones left behind? Families? God planned that? Excrement. What of free will? What of the Holy Ghost?

        The Incels who are in choir and watch M*LF porn and are christian v Roosh……god really doesn’t care who was worse. God cares for the fact the sin is sin. Watching milf porn is a sin. Roosh bedding 1000 women is a sin. All fall short, all must submit to the Cross. Roosh gets a pass in the ‘sphere because he was a ladies man. Blue pilled men like me who “watch milf” porn are terrible because they knew better?????? (I don’t use porn by the way). God wants a community of believers. Many rooms in his house. All are welcome. All have sin.

        Roosh would still…..like Paul to have humility. I don’t really see that…..but what do I know? I was still viewed as an addict (a sin…yes, still paying for my actions). Roosh “all is forgiven. God sanctified him, and he now is worthy of lecturing the rest of us?”

        BS

        Like

      • Lastmod says:

        I really love Paul McCartney’s work, outlook on life…..with and after The Beatles. Really talented man. Very talented. Writes pop songs and “silly love songs” like a dime store novelist.

        Now.

        He decided a decade or two ago to take up painting as a hobby. Great! His “artwork” gets a front billing at the Tate Gallery in London. Pressing fawning over it. People “praising” him on his artistic abilities!

        Really? Look, huge Paul McCartney fan! Huge! The artwork is terrible. It’s not good. Now, as a hobby, something to build upon…learn? Something new? YES! But to hail him as talented here and give him an exclusive billing in a world famous gallery is an insult to art, and tons of artists who will never get a chance to have their work in the Tate Gallery who are probably WAY better than McCartney.

        What I am trying to get at here…..being good or amazing, or skilled, or having talents in areas of your life…does not make you an expert on everything, nor should your opinion be equal to a giant in the field. With practice, time…..lots of hard work could MCartney’s painting be better? Yes. Probably. But to hail him as an artist now in this fashion does art and him a disservice.

        Roosh. A man we all “secretly” wanted to be evidently. Sold books, podcasts, told us all “how its done” and everything concern women and how to be a ladies man. Renounces his past…..become a Christian….now knows more than the pope? Can teach us all a lesson? God “sanctified” him?????? No…like countless men before him, he came to a point in his life when the Faith was the only answer….as we all probably should.

        But elevating him to a “saint” status now in the faith does Roosh and the faith a disservice.

        Liked by 1 person

    • cameron232 says:

      Roosh – internet selling stuff back then, internet selling stuff now. Internet attention whore then, internet attention whore now.

      You take these people too seriously.

      Like

      • Lastmod says:

        I don’t take him seriously…I’ve watched and read some of the christian stuff he is doing now. Look…….the word say for when a man repents of his past, the angels in heaven rejoice. However, I get kind-of the notion from him that he’s not really “sorry” about his past actions. I mean, he doesn’t have to flogg himself. Nor do all the “hail mary’s” nor sit in a corner in a church and just lamenting in his past. I don’t think he, or any sinner who has had a “past” or made bad choices needs to sit in shame in church if they have indeed repented and “not like that anymore”

        This is why christ’s message was so astounding for the time. No blood needed to be shed. There was room for all who trusted, believed, listened and learned. All had and do have sin. All. All in a faith in christ understand this (or should). We should not “justify” sin, but I notice we tend to justify sin on depending on what kind of sin it was.

        Women who ride the CC and get saved, repent and believe….many in here still would not accpet them……while Roosh gets a pass……and this nonsense “god is using him” to justify his past behavior so he can “lead many to christ”

        AS many former PUA’s are embracing jesus, just as many are not. For every Incel who is leading the choir and using porn…plenty are not.

        This whole thing is seems to be boiling down to “Gee, I wish I lived like Roosh bc as a former ladies man, he would be getting respect in the faith”

        So his past didn’t matter? All the hearts he broke? The lies he told to women? The other nefarious ways of getting a girl naked with him. Getting her drunk, using mind-games and tricks? The derogatory language and rating them after he tossed her to the side????

        God did this, allowed this and wanted him to hurt and emotionally harm so many so God could be glorified??? What if he fathered a child and this woman aborted? That on him or her? Or both….he slept with so many raw (and he bragged about it). GTFOH. And…..”you can do this too, just sleep with lots of women / use drugs and steal, rob, lie and cheat to get them….to keep your fix, and urge…then come to god so he can be glorified?”

        Why have the Bible. Any scripture. God is just gonna be glorified. He is using who is doing wicked things in this world. Really? Is he using Nancy Pelosi???????

        Even if she repented tomorrow, just about everyone here would still hate her. There is a cost for sin. All sin. In a church you are supposed to go on, but use your past to justify why you are there now. To me, it sound like again “the popular kids” changing the rules mid-stream…and the rest just have to get on board and still get left further behind.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        I wouldn’t let him near my daughters. I wouldn’t marry a former CC rider. There are earthly consequences for sin independent of forgiveness. I don’t judge other men who choose differently wrt these things.

        I’d be shocked but thrilled if Nancy Pelosi repented.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        To the extent I have control of their choices.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        I’m very glad I didnt live like Roosh. I’m not promiscuous by nature. Glad I’ve only slept with one woman. Your notch count should be 0 or 1 unless widowed.

        I “accept” former CC riders I just wouldn’t marry one. I “accept” former male sluts I just prefer they stay away from my daughters.

        Liked by 1 person

      • info says:

        A former CC is likely past 35 so it’s a no go for marriage and relationships.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Lastmod says:

        So under 35 is okay???????????????????? You guys claim Christianity and have a gazillion rules for marriage and dating when your Bible says very little on the topic, and what is said is vague……… pretty much, if you do want a good marriage, you have to “stop sinning” and follow Christ.

        Do you guys even believe this at this point?

        Like

      • Jack says:

        “…if you do want a good marriage, you have to “stop sinning” and follow Christ.”

        It is not as simple as “If you do (or don’t do) A, then B (or not B)”. At present, we know of no clear path to a “good marriage”, and I presume that by “good” we mean sanctified. We covered this question back in February and March, so readers may want to go to “Posts by Month” on the sidebar and review these discussions. Of note, NovaSeeker’s post on The Christian Conundrum (2021-03-01) sums up some of the major issues.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        I would assume the under 35 was mentioned because many women can’t have children much past that.

        There’s no rule for not marrying a former CC rider. People that have a particular sin are more likely to revert to it even if they convert. Adultery has huge consequences for a man. Formerly promiscuous women can and often do.lose their ability to emotionally connect during intimacy (“pair bond”).They can carry a lot of emotional baggage. Female promiscuity also undermines a man’s ability to feel like “this woman is mine and mine alone” which has some effect on male romantic love.

        Former drug addicts who convert are also more likely to revert. We’ve seen this many times, including with one of my wife’s best friends who is a sincere Christian but has periodically fallen back to drug use. Men don’t want the mother of their children using drugs. That has consequences.

        Christians who are formerly promiscuous or drug users aren’t filth, they’re brothers and sisters in Christ. Other Christians don’t have to consider them for marriage. I don’t condemn those who do.

        Liked by 1 person

  10. redpillboomer says:

    Interesting thoughts on discernment. For me, and this is a shorthand, off the top of my head kind of thinking, increased discernment gives me 1) Hope for my future, as in I’m going to navigate life more effectively in the coming years, and I won’t be prone to making the mistakes I used to make through incomplete, faulty or just flat out missing discernment. (The Who’s song, “Won’t get Fooled Again” just jumped into my mind as I was typing–seems to fit.); 2) In the present, increased discernment ‘feels’ good because I sense that I’m becoming a ‘better’ version of myself, i.e. wiser, smarter, stronger, etc. version and I LIKE that ‘feeling’ A LOT, I mean a whole lot; and 3) BUT, and here’s the rub, it’s the past where I have my problems with increased discernment. I have a tendency to look back and go, “Dang, if I just knew what I know know, I could have made WISER choices and not SUFFERED the consequences of faulty choices!” I start suffering from regret. However, I seem to be able to get over that fairly quickly, the regret thing I mean. The other issue which is more insidious for me personally is to go back into my past and try to replay what MIGHT have happened if I’d chosen differently, sort of an alternative reality to reality. (“What really did happen back then?) Maybe it’s just a by-product of my personality, the tendency to be analytical in trying to ‘figure it all out’ that I end up frustrating myself by creating an array of alternative scenarios for how the past MIGHT have played out back then if I just “knew then what I know now.”

    I’ll give you an example. When I got Red Pilled and got past my RP rage, I went back in my mind to my twenties and started to play the mental gymnastics game of, “What if I’d chosen path B instead of A? … How about path C? or D? or E? (knowing what I know now) instead of A?” Like with women, supposed I had not become a Christian in my mid-twenties like I did and instead became one around 30, AND had this Red Pill knowledge during my twenties, “Wow, I could have had more sex with more women throughout my twenties, did I miss out?” Or how about this, “With this RP knowledge about female nature, even though I was a Christian, I could have been banging more of the women in my singles group, particularly the two that I was closest to, the two good looking besties instead of ‘treating them like sisters in the Lord.’ Wow! Did I miss out on something there? OMG, I might have been able to have a threesome if I just used my now found RP insider knowledge of the tingles and Christian girls being like secular girls when overcome by the tingles… Well, no, that wouldn’t have worked because I was endeavoring to honor God, but I had two good looking one’s who I thought then (and think I know now), would have given it up to me, at least individually. Did I make the right choice? Did I miss out?” On and on and on it goes… to where?…. Nowhere in particular that I can tell.

    So, what I’ve done in my own thinking with my twenties, is say, “It went down the way it went down, and that’s it… NO continual reviewing it through the lens of coulda, shoulda, woulda.” Where the Red Pill discernment DOES help is in reviewing my twenties, gleaning the lessons the discernment provides me now, is in helping other men (and women) NOW where it can help. That works for me. It also seems to knock out the other part of looking back on my past with my present discernment — the continual “What if, what if, what if’ing the past” to the point of frustration — because it goes just plain nowhere.

    Liked by 2 people

  11. Scott says:

    Someday I may write my own version of this, but it would be something like 47 lines about 23 1/2 women.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Scott says:

      Warning: NSFW

      Like

    • Lastmod says:

      He remembered all their names??? Doubtful. 🙂

      Like

      • Scott says:

        I actually tried that exercise once. There are precisely 4 whose names I can’t remember.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        I’m so dumb I didn’t get it was the man’s notch count at first. My wife knows a lady who was her husband’s 18th conquest. He has cheated on her for most of the marriage and is now in the Brevard County jail for molesting their two daughters. Oh, yeah he was simultaneously sleeping with some woman and gave something to their daughters.

        Obviously most promiscuous men aren’t child molesters but character matters and poor character is high risk.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        18th conquest and they married young.

        Like

  12. Scott says:

    “I’m so dumb I didn’t get it was the man’s notch count at first.”

    Not dumb, but that is a classic alternative song from 1981. My oldest brother pioneered the serial monogamy trail for my family in college in the 80s, and this was kind of an anthem for that life.

    By the time I was 23, and about to get married, I was on number 7, and didn’t think it was weird at all. The number ballooned up between wife # 1 and Mychael, as I was 30 something, in the army (then graduate school) and totally free to do whatever I wanted. The majority of those were first dates that ended in sex and then never calling back. The rule has always been “if she gives it up on the first date, she is not girlfriend material.” That’s been true since high school. It’s as true as the driver controls the radio on a road trip. I mean, come on.

    I’ve discussed this before, but the sweet spot is the third date. Well, it was. I have no idea now. It gives the girl just enough cover to give the impression she is not too easy, but she knows you will walk if it goes too long after that.

    Like

    • Scott says:

      This is actually one of the areas where I have a lot of empathy for the girls who came of age in the 70s and 80s. They had to walk this fine line of “first date too soon” and “fifth date, you lost him.”

      Because every guy knew that he could just next it and get some on date #3 if he wanted to. It must have been very stressful for the girls.

      Add to that, you couldn’t actually admit to your parents that you were having sex with your boyfriend, even though everyone knew exactly what you were doing after football practice in those 2 hours or so before the parents got home.

      Again, very stressful.

      Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        I think we waited like 6 or 8 weeks but it’s been a long time. It wasn’t 3 or 5 dates.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        I blame my sin on Janet Jackson’s music. Oh you nasty boy!

        Like

      • Scott says:

        Waiting 8 weeks would have made me violent at that age.

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        You know Scott, no. The decent guys didn’t leave them if they didn’t put out by the 5th date. And the decent guys weren’t all Paul from the Wonder Years. It’s like we’re excusing girl’s poor choices.

        Liked by 1 person

  13. Lastmod says:

    Sleep with one, none or 100…. great. proud of you. So in a Christian sense, will God reward the man who had “more of sampling of sex” in the world? Or will he just want to know that you are blameless before him? In heaven… if such a place really does exist……. is everyone still going to be rated on how many women they bedded? Will women debate about how many guys thought they were hot? Will it be a place of “he tithed more in his life”, or “she ran the youth group with no complaints for 35 years”? I was told these things don’t/won’t matter in that place. But when I started to see that in church…. they DID seem to matter….. Well, just another question I had that no one could answer.

    “Is everyone excited about going to heaven?” a pastor said one Sunday. All cheered, put on the show…. except one man. When asked why he wasn’t excited, he replied, “…not if I am going to have to spend eternity with just about all of you guys.”

    The guffaws, and gasps could probably be heard from the parking lot. Instead of blowing him off… one man in that church approached him afterwards. Genuinely wanted to know why he felt this way.

    That one man was all it took for someone in that place to just talk to him. The man had been attending church and no one knew his name, his story, or anything about him… assumed him to be a nobody… not handsome, not dropping 100K in the collection plate, not invited or asked to participate in any ministry…..

    I got a huge fine reversed today. Had a great late breakfast. Met with the manager at the other property concerning the fine we got. I taught and encouraged him, but at the same time, I explained that “I expect and want more from you in this position.”

    I was surprised how well it went at City Hall…….. no anger, no yelling, no calling them incompetent…. I just explained the code, let them speak AND finish when they were defending their position. The cute girl then got her manager….. without me asking……. He and I had a chat, a cigarette outside over the cool LA morning…… I was done in about 20 minutes. No bedding of women involved. No Game or frame. Just doing the job, and asking the right questions instead of “thinking” I was right. In LA…. attitude is everything! 🙂

    Have a great weekend all!

    Liked by 1 person

  14. Lastmod says:

    Though I was bumping song this really loud in my car, windows down…cigarette in my mouth as I rolled downtown this morning. Love it! So sixties!

    Liked by 4 people

    • Jack says:

      Jason, you need to get an Exner designed Chrysler/Plymouth/Dodge to make your mod life complete. (If you’re not familiar with Exner’s designs, you can do an image search for “Exner Chrysler”. They have that space-age, “Jetsons” look to them.) The 1961 Plymouth Fury is one of my personal favorites.

      If you prefer fins, then look for something from 1960 or before. Here’s a 1960 Chrysler Imperial Crown Convertible.

      If you prefer something smaller (and cheaper), Exner produced an economy size version too. (Plymouth Valiant and Dodge Dart and Lancer) Here’s a 1962 Dodge Dart.

      Since you’re in California, it should be easy for you to find something in good condition.

      Better get one soon, the prices are going up quickly these days.

      Like

      • Lastmod says:

        Familiar with his work! I grew up in a Chrysler / Plymouth / Dodge family. That’s all we ever bought. Dad always owned a Dodge truck. Swore by them. I prefer the mid-sixties Mopar’s.

        I did look into purchasing an older “vintage” Mopar, the problem was insurance, and repairs if indeed I did get into an accident. I was looking at base Dodge Darts, Plymouth Valiants….. all four doors and maybe a 318 engine. Most vintage cars are souped up, 340’s, 413’s, or hemis…..

        I didn’t want a sports car or muscle car (at my age it would be overcompensating). I wanted a base model… and those are hard to find, or they have been stripped down and muscled up. I don’t have time to tinker on a car or a place where I could work on it.

        Mod’s actually rode scooters, and I will get one again. (I want a 1964 Lambretta.) I bought the Volkswagen because I wanted a reliable car that kind-of fit in with everything else, that got decent mileage, had a decent engine for pep (1.8 turbo) and a good warranty. The car was built in Mexico but the engine and transmission was built in Germany. The car was also a stick shift. BIG selling point for me.

        Love the cars, and Chrysler was once a very innovative company that built good cars and had a style that in some cases blew the doors off of GM or Ford of the period.

        Thanks~! 🙂

        Liked by 2 people

      • Lastmod says:

        Just before I was born. My parents bought a brand new 1969 Plymouth Road Runner. A base 383 model. Dad had his 1968 Dodge Custom 3/4 ton truck. The car was the family car / mom’s car.

        By 1973, my mother was on the verge of losing her license with so many speeding tickets. Dad didn’t like the fact that I was a toddler in a car seat with mom who was used to driving on the wrong side of the road (born and raised in the UK). The decision was made. The car was traded in and a nice Plymouth Fury station wagon was purchased with a base 318 engine.

        I don’t remember the Road Runner…I was very, very young. I do remember that station wagon.

        The Chrysler 318 was probably one of the best standard “workhorse” engines ever built by the big three. I can to this day tell when I hear one 😉

        Liked by 1 person

  15. feeriker says:

    “…a lady who was her husband’s 18th conquest. He has cheated on her for most of the marriage and is now in the Brevard County jail for molesting their two daughters. Oh, yeah he was simultaneously sleeping with some woman and gave something to their daughters.”

    Quite frankly, she belongs in jail in the cell next his. BOTH of them also deserve to be sterilized (he by castration).

    Like

  16. feeriker says:

    “Why have the Bible. Any scripture.”

    Pretty much the attitude of most churchian franchises, who’ve largely dispensed with it.

    “I’d be shocked but thrilled if Nancy Pelosi repented.”

    In order for anyone to believe it’s genuine, she would have to demonstrate some absolutely radical works — as in, putting her very life on the line to reverse the heinous damage she’s done over the years.

    Yeah, I agree; there’s a greater probability of the Earth suddenly reversing its rotational direction.

    Like

    • Lastmod says:

      Okay… Roosh says, “Yeah, I’m an Orthodox now”, and you all suddenly take this as meaning that sinning and having sex with tons of women was okay. You will say, “Well, he repented” (so he says), or “That is between him and God.”

      I bring up Nancy Pelosi….. NOW “conditions” come in. You guys are priceless.

      Like

      • feeriker says:

        I don’t dispute your assertions about Roosh. I’m as skeptical as you are, as I am about any “celebrity conversion.”

        As for Roosh specifically, I’ll believe that his conversion is sincere when he tries to reach out to his female victims and make some sort of atonement or restitution.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Jack says:

        “Roosh says, “Yeah, I’m an Orthodox now”, and you all suddenly take this as meaning that sinning and having sex with tons of women was okay.”

        Hold on. Nobody here (to my knowledge) has ever said fornication was okay. Christians do not have any green light on sexual promiscuity. What you are questioning is the sovereignty and grace of God. You are asking, “Why does God forgive bad guys?” You are also assuming that we are saying that, “Since God forgives the bad guys, then it’s okay to be bad. After all, God will forgive.” This is a very naïve view of the gospel — one that fails to recognize one’s own need of salvation. Yes, we need to accept the fact that we are all sinners. You have to come to the point where you admit that you’re bad, and that it is “okay” in the sense that we must accept it because that’s just how it is. We cannot make ourselves any more or less sinful. We have to find some way to work within this paradox. It’s also “okay” in the sense that we don’t have to face eternal damnation because Christ redeemed us. But it’s NOT “okay” to assume you have this priceless gift from God and then reject God’s sovereignty over your life, which is the sentiment that you are assuming. To go so far as to say “sin doesn’t matter” fails to recognize the beauty, power, and righteousness of Christ and His kingdom. You have lost sight of Christ and the reason why He forgives.

        Liked by 3 people

      • Lastmod says:

        Not questioning that at all. In your OP you mentioned what Roosh did flies in the face of scripture. You also said “Roosh was heading in the right direction” and you then played “welll, there really isn’t

        And you quoted Matthew, saying “tax collectors and protitutes are going to get into heaven before you” and then you added “and PUA’s”

        “God knows their heart” right?

        I was evil beyond comparison. Still am according to more than a few I am sure…….and I never felt convinced I was forgiven in church, in bible studies, with fellow men……..I had a past in which I had to “live with and deal with” and that prevented me from ANY leadership position in the church. Prevented me from working with children. Since I was a former addict “I couldn’t make good judgement” according to all of them…and all I was good for was to be a body and a pew warmer. I wasn’t even considered “date worthy”

        Roosh claims Orthodoxy……….and he’s hailed as being used by god for santicification. And Jack, I love you dearly but the ‘sphere has qoted Roosh. Has used his ideas for men in the christian realm……..he “old ways” were indeed looked up to in here.

        I don’t know what else to else. He’s like a STD / STI the gift that just keeps on giving. Great, he’s Orthodox now. Great. He said he was wrong. Good. Glad for him a . So now he’s a mystic? He is ready for saithood? What he has to say is important?

        I don’t have a problem with him in faith or practicing, or learning or even expressing it. What I have a problem with is now he’s deemed some sort of saint for us all to follow.

        Does sex bring men closer to god? I guess it does. Do what you want, god “knows your heart…but you ladies that had more than one partner……..and you, you filthy addict. Sit in shame over there, god loves you….but we want nothing of you, you should be here to remind the rest of what not to be…”

        Like

    • cameron232 says:

      If Nancy Pelosi publically said abortion is evil and by supporting it she’s done an evil thing I’d believe her. It would be a complete reversal and she has every incentive to maintain her current position. I would be overjoyed.

      Like

  17. feeriker says:

    “…not if I am going to have to spend eternity with just about all of you guys.”

    It pains me to say it, but that’s becoming my default reaction to just about every churchian I meet. If THAT is who I’m going to have for neighbors in heaven, I might have to move to heaven’s equivalent of where I now live on Earth — the rural part — just to make myself inconvenient and inaccessible.

    Like

    • cameron232 says:

      Other people will be experienced differently. “Relationships” will be experienced differently. Transfigured not sinful flesh. Immediate presence of God, the beatific vision. And purgatory will have changed us.

      Like

  18. anonymous_ng says:

    Not going to try and insert my comments where they best fit. WordPress is horrible for replying sometimes.

    — Praying for a direction. Some have accused me of slipping close to deism, but if God gave us all free will, why would He desire us to ask Him every five minutes what we are supposed to be doing? If God gave us discernment, why would He then want us to ignore the plain scriptures and teachings for a personal word?

    — God’s perfect will. That term is pretty high on the list of phrases that make me just want to vomit.

    IMO, most of the time when people are talking about God’s will, they mean that God decided before the beginning of the world that this man should be a diesel mechanic, and that man should be a college professor, and that woman should be an actress. That this man should live in Texas, and that man should live in Seattle.

    I don’t believe that one bit.

    I don’t find the scriptures about will, read incorrectly if will is understood to be living a sinless life, living within the rules God has laid out for mankind, living with God’s purposes in mind. Again, IMO, it has nothing to do with what car you’re supposed to drive, who you are supposed to marry, where you are supposed to live etc. That’s all churchian nonsense.

    Then, again, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe I’m too proud to follow God’s will and that’s why I come to the conclusions I do. IDK.

    Like

  19. Scott says:

    “Neighbors in Heaven”

    LOL

    You and me both brother..

    Heaven, as described by the ages scares the living daylights out of me.

    How many bazillion times can you hold hands and sing kumbayah before you want to blow your brains out?

    Liked by 1 person

    • feeriker says:

      “How many bazillion times can you hold hands and sing kumbayah before you want to blow your brains out?”

      If you’re a critically thinking person who wants to get to the meat of God’s word, once is more than enough. Unfortunately, we quickly come to realize that what passes for “church” these days (and probably for most of modern western history) isn’t really interested in the meat of God’s word (most can’t digest spiritual junk food, let alone milk or meat, which is why it’s almost impossible to find a church that emphasizes and teaches apologetics). We want to run, Run, RUN away, to anywhere where people seek the truth, but we also know at the same time that the odds of finding such a place are about the same as those of finding a five-star French restaurant in the midst of the slums of Calcutta.

      Liked by 2 people

    • cameron232 says:

      I take it on faith that it’ll be blissful that we won’t be the same
      I dont think the prize is something that’ll make you want to blow your brains out. This world makes me want to blow my brains out a million times over.

      Like

  20. thedeti says:

    Lots of discussion in here about fornication and its effect on us and our salvation.

    I’m not sure how else to express this, but I’ll try.

    A key developmental milestone for a man is his relationship to his own sexuality, and I mean that in the broadest possible terms, “sex” including his maleness, his masculinity, his manhood.

    The church does an OK job with “maleness” (You’re a male, not female, you’re different from women). The church thinks it does really well with “manhood” (spiritual development, a man’s relationship with God the Father, coming into sonship, etc.)

    The church does a TERRIBLE job with “masculinity” (men’s relationship to the world and sexual conduct and behavior). In fact, the church and most everywhere else has been trashing and demonizing masculinity for decades. Everyone, including most men, do a terrible job with “masculinity”.

    Leaving aside everything else, we’re homing in on that part of “masculinity” that deals with a man’s relationship to sexual conduct, and his relationship to women. How he deals with women, the role women play in his life, the kinds of women he likes, the kinds of relationships he has with women, the kinds of relationships he wants with women, the role sex plays in his life, living with and interacting with women, etc.

    Christ lived this out perfectly. Did He have sex with women? We do not know whether He did or not. We take it on faith that He did not because we have no record of His taking a wife and Scripture is silent on it. Tradition says He neither married nor had “carnal” knowledge. There is a gap in descriptions of His early life between ages 12 and when He began public ministry at 30. We know – we take it on faith – He was, and is, the perfect Man, the God-Man.

    Here’s what we know about Christ’s relationships with women: He had a few in his life. He loved them. He cared for them. He showed compassion for them. When he saw friends weeping over Lazarus’ death, he wept with them (and then He took care of business). But – he never submitted to any of them – not even to His own mother, the venerated Mary.

    Jesus exercised absolute lordship over women. He never let a woman tell Him what to do or what He should have done. Remember Mary and Martha: 1) Martha telling Jesus “Hey Jesus! I’m busy in here! Tell my sister Mary to get in here and help me!” Jesus rebuked her gently and corrected her: Martha, you worry about so many things, But Mary has chosen what is most needful. 2) Mary and Martha urgently sending for Jesus when their brother Lazarus was sick. “Jesus, come NOW.” He waited 2 days and let Lazarus die. So when he got there, the very first thing Martha says is “well, hell, Jesus. If you’d been here when I asked you to come, Lazarus wouldn’t have died!… but I know that if it’s Your will, Lazarus will live.”

    He was always in charge with and around them. He told women what to do and they did it. His own mom at the wedding said “Jesus, they’re out of wine, do something about this.” Jesus told his own mom, the venerated Mary: “This has nothing to do with Me. Not my time yet.” And then his own mother, the venerated Mary, said to the servants: “you go do whatever He tells you to do.”

    He didn’t take women seriously. He told women who’s who and what’s what – the woman with five husbands – he showed her compassion but firmly rebuked her. The woman caught in adultery – same thing.

    He tested women. The woman with the demon possessed daughter. “Jesus, heal my daughter!” (Christ ignores her and says nothing.) Disciples: Dude, send her away, she’s annoying us. Jesus: I was sent only for Israel’s lost sheep. (Kneels before Jesus:) “Lord, help me!” It is not right to take children’s bread and throw it to the dogs. “Yes, Lord, but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ tables.” Woman, you have great faith! Your daughter is healed.

    That was, and is, masculinity in relationship with women. You love, care for, and trust, the women closest to you; all others can pound sand. You decide which women you love, care for, and trust by testing them. You make them prove their worthiness of your love, care, and trust. When they pass the tests, then you love, care for, and trust them. At that point, it’s about lordship. Control. Mastery. Firm and gentle rebuke. Women don’t run you or your life. Women don’t tell you what to do; you tell them what to do. You come when you decide it’s time. You go where you decide to go, when you decide to go. You do what you decide needs to be done for the greater good and for the purposes you have deemed necessary and proper.

    Women you don’t love, care for or trust – who cares about them or what they do? Until they pass the tests, you’re indifferent to them. You don’t tell them anything, help them, do anything for them, or give them any mental or emotional effort whatsoever. You have nothing whatsoever to do with them. You keep them out of your life.

    It was Jesus’ frame. First, last, always. Jesus was the undisputed master of the reframe. Every time someone said something, Jesus’ response was a paraphrase of “I reject your frame and substitute My own perfect one.” “Here’s My frame. You need to get with My program.”

    No one could “gotcha” Jesus, though they tried. “Which is the greatest commandment!” Nope, not falling for it. Here’s the whole shebang: Love God with all you got; love your neighbor as yourself. There. That sums up the Law and the prophets. See ya!

    “Hey. We saw You doing that healing stuff at the temple on the Sabbath. That’s work, and You’re not supposed to be working on the Sabbath! Hypocrite! False prophet!” My Father has been working until now, and so I am working.

    What does this have to do with sex? Probably nothing. But I’ve spent so much time writing this I’ll try to get through it. Sex is a basic need for men. We are driven to have it. We need it like we need to breathe air or water. It’s good that men are driven to it because if we weren’t, the human race would have died out a long time ago. Sexual behavior and conduct is part of a man’s masculinity – how he deals with women and how he relates to them. It’s something he has to learn about, try out, and eventually master. One of the ways men do this is through fornicating. Trial and error. You find out that without a human connection, it’s pretty meaningless.

    You find out that if you don’t love, trust, or care about the woman you just fornicated with, it’s at best fleetingly pleasurable; at worst painful and dangerous. Most of the time it’s just mundane. You find out that it’s all pretty much the same and not worth the effort unless there’s something more profound going on. Roosh discovered this- he coined “player burnout” in finding out that all the sex he’d been having was the same – same positions, same Game, same fungible women, same tactile sensations, same vague feelings of emptiness and meaninglessness afterwards. He realized he was just going through the motions, it was unsatisfying, and he had grown bored with it.

    Maybe a lot of men have to find mastery over sexual behavior and their own sexuality by misusing it first. Through some misuse, you might be able to find proper use. Yes, I think it’s less injurious for men to engage in some misuse. (I am not saying it’s “OK”; I’m just saying that men bear fewer and less painful consequences through fornication than women do. I’m saying it’s easier for men to recover from fornication than it is for women. Is this fair? No. But then again, it’s not fair that men have to work so damn hard to get anything. Life’s tough all over. We’ve all got our crosses to bear.)

    We have to do better with masculinity. We have to do better teaching masculinity. We have to stop demonizing masculinity. We have to let men flex their masculinity muscles. We have to give men some room to run, some space to make errors, some grace to return to the fold.

    I don’t know if fornication “leads to” salvation or not. Maybe it does. Maybe it doesn’t. But it is part of a lot of men’s journeys. It’s a stop on the road for a lot of men. That is because sexual behavior is part of men, it’s part of masculinity, it is essential to a man’s nature. It is also because our society has demonized men’s fullest expressions of male sexuality. It is also because the Church has completely failed at expressing and teaching masculinity. It is also because men are strongly discouraged from overt expressions of sexual behavior, desire, and need.

    We have to do better. Otherwise, what you’ll get is more fornication from attractive men; and more dysfunction from less attractive men. We have GOT to do a better job with our boys and our men.

    Liked by 3 people

    • anonymous_ng says:

      @Deti

      “The church does a TERRIBLE job with “masculinity” (men’s relationship to the world and sexual conduct and behavior). In fact, the church and most everywhere else has been trashing and demonizing masculinity for decades. Everyone, including most men, do a terrible job with “masculinity”.”

      Deti, your entire comment was pure platinum laid over with gold.

      Maybe I made this comment before, I can’t remember, but one of the biggest things I found in the pickup community is that guys who are good with women are unapologetic about being sexual.

      However, because the church (collective) is hyper-focused on sexual sin, it inadvertently demonizes our sexual nature until the young men who want to do right, who want to be good, who want to follow the rules come out the other side ashamed of their interest, their erections, their desire.

      Then, when they approach women, they’re weird and creepy because they’ve been made that way. The “alpha” is the one who resists that emasculation.

      Liked by 3 people

      • thedeti says:

        Thanks, anon.

        one of the things I left out is that the earlier you learn this about sex, the better:

        –women are pretty much the same

        –women are not complex or hard to understand

        –sex isn’t worth the effort without some connection to her

        –don’t take women seriously

        –until a woman proves herself worthy, she gets nothing from you

        –under no circumstances is a woman entitled to anything from you

        –women don’t run the show and don’t tell you what to do

        It’s better to learn this in your late teens and early 20s as a young single guy, than it is to learn this 15 years into a marriage.

        Liked by 2 people

      • thedeti says:

        Another example of Jesus “testing” women: The woman with the issue of blood:

        Jesus moving through a crowd. The woman has been bleeding for 12 years, sees Him and thinks, “if I can just get close and touch Him, I’ll be healed.” She came up behind Jesus and touched the fringe of His clothes, and was healed immediately. He said, Who touched Me? She was afraid, but knelt before him and said (paraphrasing) “I did, because I’d heard about Your power and You healing people just by touching them, and I figured if I could just touch You I could get healed.” Daughter, your faith has made you well. Go in peace.

        That’s a woman knowing what the test is and passing with flying colors. The test is “Do it My way, get with My program, step into My frame.” She did it His way: Believe, step out in faith, and act on that faith. She submitted to him, visibly: She knelt in front of Him and explained what she did and why. He recognized her and told her she passed the test, and was rewarded for it with healing and being called “Daughter”.

        Liked by 1 person

    • Jack says:

      Deti, your comments here approach 2,000 words, and the subject matter is worthy of two separate posts. I’ve put together a couple drafts for you to finalize.

      Like

    • Lastmod says:

      This is the same as churchianity… “God knows a mans heart. He has to fornicate… So if he does it, its okay….. and we’ll add to the women’s N count, and then say she’s totally damaged”.

      Just justifying sin. Same thing churchianity does right now.

      Like

      • thedeti says:

        No. Not justifying. explaining.

        explaining, because men are imperfect, fallen creatures. We are going to fail. When men fail, we have to give them a way out and a way back.

        Like

  21. RIchardP says:

    @Red Pill Apostle said:

    “…to think that following the rules obligates God to reward in a certain way…”

    I have not yet read past that statement. So if others have addressed this already, my apologies.

    I’m not going to take the time to find the scripture references, but the Bible is pretty clear that God’s promises are intended only for those who obey him. It is not nuts to flip that and say, we obey God in order to benefit from his promises.

    Why bother with God at all if not to benefit from what he offers us (eternal life with him)? What are the right things I need to do in order to earn God’s favor? Those things do exists, and they are not always what the religious authorities would have us believe. But they can be found by paying attention to what God actually says in the Bible (as opposed to what so-and-so’s book says that the Bible says).

    It doesn’t hurt to start here: “He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?” (Micah 6:8 — KJV)

    “Mercy” has been defined as the act of compassion shown someone when it is in your power to turn and walk away. What does the Lord require? Do what is right (as defined by God in the Bible); show compassion to those you could otherwise walk away from; walk humbly with God.

    And notice that the quoted verse starts out with the answer to too many people’s questions: He hath showed thee, O Man, what is good … Where hath God showed us what is good? In his Word, the Bible. Revelation from God is a fact (which I will address in the next post). But grab onto the promise that He hath showed thee, O Man, what is good … The Bible would be too large if it showed us what is good in every situation we might face. But we have the three litmus tests for any situations we might face: for this given moment, how should we respond? Do what is right. Show compassion (if needed) when we could otherwise walk away. And behave in a way that allows us to walk humbly (not proudly) with God.

    My wife and I have dealt with the children damaged by this woman who called them all around her and asked them to pray with her so that God would tell her whether or not she should leave her husband (the children’s’ father).

    My question to the kids, who got left behind after she decided that God had told her it would be good for her to divorce her husband: what was wrong with what God told us in the Bible about the answer to her question?

    Indeed. What is wrong with looking to what God actually says in his word? Do the right thing (as defined by the Bible); show compassion when it is in your power to turn and walk away; walk humbly with God. That, according to Micah 6:8, is what God requires of us — in a nutshell.

    Like

    • Red Pill Apostle says:

      Richard,

      “I’m not going to take the time to find the scripture references, but the Bible is pretty clear that God’s promises are intended only for those who obey him. It is not nuts to flip that and say, we obey God in order to benefit from his promises.”

      “Why bother with God at all if not to benefit from what he offers us (eternal life with him)? What are the right things I need to do in order to earn God’s favor? Those things do exists, and they are not always what the religious authorities would have us believe. But they can be found by paying attention to what God actually says in the Bible (as opposed to what so-and-so’s book says that the Bible says).”

      God’s children do benefit from his promises, but not necessarily in the way we think we should benefit and not necessarily on this earth.. The incel in the hypothetical case is behaving not out of a heart of gratitude for the gift God has given him, but to obligate God to give him a wife. It’s a covert contract or quid pro quo way of looking at God.

      The why bother with God question is backwards. The question is why should God bother with us? We are dead in our sins, as in lifeless. We were actively at war with God. And under these circumstances, in his Grace, He sought us and brought us to Himself taking on Himself what we deserve. This is why we bother with God and why we obey His commands. Not out of what we might get or what He might do for us, but because of gratitude for what He already has done.

      Of course, since this world and all that is in it is God’s creation, if we follow His handy guide for living, we often benefit here on the earth, but sometimes the opposite is true. This is the issue I addressed in the incel example because we both know that following God’s commandments has lead to imprisonment, poverty, being banished, rejection by family, you get the idea.

      Liked by 2 people

  22. RIchardP says:

    I would like to make links of all of these, but that many wouldn’t be accepted.

    Revelation Given:

    Matthew 11:25 – revelation to children
    Luke 10:21

    Matthew 13:11
    Matthew 16:17
    John 14:26

    Revelation Hidden:

    Matthew 13:10-17
    Matthew 11:25
    Matthew 11:27
    Luke 24:16

    God tells us that he is the creator, we are the created, that his Will will stand, that he will do all that he pleases. He will reveal to whom he wishes to reveal. He will withhold revelation from those he wishes to withold. And he will take the thieves on the cross who cry out to him for mercy and forgiveness, in spite of the fact that they have no sanctification. I bet some of the folks milling about around the foot of the cross as the thief gave up the ghost were those who talked about sanctification and stuff in the newly-forming New Testament Church. Must have burned their chaps that the thief didn’t know a thing about their sanctification doctrines.

    Like

  23. RIchardP says:

    For the folks who want to know what is wrong with fornication, and other queries of that sort. Micah 6:8 has the answer: Do the right thing (as defined by the Bible).

    God says that fornicators will not get into heaven (absent genuine repentance). So one of the “right things” is to not fornicate.

    “OK – I will fornicate until I get old, then I will ask for forgiveness.”

    Well – consider that 1 Corinthians 12:3 says that no one can say that Jesus is Lord of their lives without the help of the Holy Spirit. Which means there will be no confession and request for forgiveness without the help of the Holy Spirit. And if the Holy Spirit is grieved by you to the point that he never again calls you to repentance, what then? How do you repent and thereby gain the forgiveness that allows you to get into heaven if the Holy Spirit decides to pass you by in your old age? Or middle age?

    So, the best answer to the question of “what is wrong with doing whatever?” is: God said not to do it, that is what is wrong with doing it. Given that, no other answer matters if you want to be welcomed to the Tree of Life that stands beside the Throne of God.

    Liked by 2 people

  24. cameron232 says:

    Luther made the strong law/gospel distinction, dividing verses into one or the other – including NT. Law condemns, gospel saves – the law is there to direct you to the gospel. Though it has value in itself (Luther rejected antinomianism). Luther said you could commit murder and fornication 100 times a day and be covered by Christ’s righteousness (google for exact quote).

    Christians are all over the place with interpretation as concerns faith, grace and works. Some saints think nearly everyone will be condemned, others say there’s hope for repentance up until the end of your life. Sometimes facing one’s mortality concentrates the mind towards repentance. One reason the Church historically supported capital punishment in extreme cases.

    Some early Christians, based on certain verses, believed a single grave sin, after conversion, condemned you. The Church seemed to figure out pretty quickly that that condemns basically everyone.

    Work out your salvation in fear and trembling.

    Liked by 1 person

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