An introspective lesson based on a reader’s testimony.
Readership: Christians
Author’s Note: This post is based on an email I received from a reader who will remain anonymous. The content of his message carried nuances of the Red Pill rage that is common to those new to the ‘sphere. His story had some important points that we could all learn something from.
Reader’s Note: Some sections paraphrased for brevity. Quotes are lightly edited for clarity.
Length: 2,100 words
Reading Time: 7 minutes
Handling a Crisis Situation
“The [current economic situation] has hit me hard. I was laid off work a few months ago, and I’ve been struggling to make ends meet. About a month ago, I decided that instead of hunting and waiting for a job offer, I’d just start my own business.* I already have the training and tools, and my buddy at work who was also laid off has been working with me. All I’ve had to do is find customers and develop a reputation. We’re already getting regular calls coming in, and me and my partner are pretty close to matching our previous salaries. (We’re about ~70% there.)
My wife has not made things any easier. Me being out of work has made her feel much more insecure than usual, and her constant complaints and nagging are a continual reminder of this. We fight and argue about stupid little stuff every day.”
* His business is home remodeling, e.g. kitchen, bathroom, plumbing, and flooring. He mentioned that, in spite of the lockdown, some people are doing pretty well, and since they are spending more time at home, they want a nicer home environment.
Case Study 1 – Mismatched Priorities
As an example of the stupid little stuff he and his wife argue about, the reader shared this little story in his private email.
“My wife vacuums the floor and cooks a meal every day and she thinks that makes her the most fabulous wife on the planet. That’s great and all, but at the same time, she is always talking like I’m a 5-year-old slob! If I drop one crumb from the dinner table, or leave one hair in the shower stall, she is on my case like a school marm. Fact is, I don’t give a rat’s @$$ about crumbs or hairs, or meticulous floors, or even hot meals. The thing that would make me feel like she is a fabulous wife is if she would just take a break from the shame game and show a little more positivity, natural affection, and encouragement.”
I know how that feels. This is another example of a woman making a man out to be an immature boy. Deep Strength covered this dynamic in a comment.
“The issue is not maturity though. A woman’s preconceived notions of what they think is “mature” or not is their will manifesting as pride: they think they know what is better than the man they are with and are setting themselves up as the judge of that.”
Personally, I’ve made a habit of drawing a boundary between what I want, and what my wife wants, as a way of reminding her that she is not the only person living in the house. This approach works for the most part, except when she just doesn’t want to hear it.
Case Study 2 – He is not handy, but she is?!?
Case Study 1 compares closely to what Locustsplease shared here.
“When I was married I remodeled bathrooms, whole new flooring and shower, replaced roof, did major auto repairs, decking, graded the entire back yard… She replaced the kitchen cabinet knobs 1 time. Yet, she insisted until we split that I was not handy around the house, and that she was, and she even included this statement in the divorce manifesto docs!”
The myopic solipsism is absolutely amazing here. Like DS said, this is pride being manifested in her will.
Pride Goeth before a Fall
The letter continues.
“During this time, I had an epiphany. She actually has a purpose for being contentious. She thinks she is keeping me on my toes and preventing me from becoming lazy. Fact is, I would have a lot more time and a lot better mindset to deal with work if she would just take it easy.
The thing that really irks me is that she actually enjoys it.** My wife’s biggest problem is her pride, and since we’ve been married 15 years now, let me tell you a few things I’ve learned about her pride…”
- Her main prerogative is to protect her pride. If someone or something rubs her pride the wrong way, she gets angry, argumentative, and tries to shame that person into submission – all in an effort to protect her pride.
- This pride is why she is afraid to trust or depend on a man (me) in a time of crisis, be in debt, or owe anything to anyone.
- This pride is why she never wants to say sorry, even when she knows she’s wrong and feels guilty.
- This pride is why she puts on a show like she is careless about other’s needs (i.e. my need for regular sex and a peaceful home environment).
- This pride is why she wants to play with her cats and her smartphone during talk time, and talk during sex time.
- This pride is also why she denies her desire and acts like she is frigid in bed, even though she’s actually hot for a romp.
- This pride is what makes her particularly skilled in making my c0ck feel like it has to beg for her attention.
- This pride is why she can’t grow up.
“All because she is proud as hәll.
Whenever I’ve pointed this out to her in the past, she says I am proud!”
This defense mechanism is a combination of displacement and psychological projection.
** Wife is Asian, and I can confirm that some Asian women do take an extreme enjoyment in creating arguments and being contentious.
The Principle of Pride
He says one day his phone got smashed and he borrowed his wife’s phone for a few days.
“I was [very offended] when I happened upon a text message that my wife sent to one of her friends. She told her I was lazy because I had not found another job after 3 months, and that our pastor had to convince her to take a more positive view of me and the situation. I was glad that our pastor had set her straight, but it [offended me] because she obviously respects our pastor’s opinion more than she respects me in this time of difficulty.”
In another text message she had with a friend who consulted her for dating advice, he was flabbergasted to find that his wife told her friend about her “principle”. She wrote…
“Men start quickly, but they learn slowly.”
I don’t say, “I can do all the things for the boys” [I see it in the message], because having a soft heart will become a tool for boys to use.”
“To respect each other [Translation: to establish my own power as dominant], the degree of cooperation is very important. The mastership lies in whether the attitude of performance is firm. I don’t easily change what I said. I will not tell the boys my principles. But the ruler in my own heart will naturally make the boys know that they can’t offend me!”
“Boys who are pressing for intimacy always want to give and hear a lot of sweet talk, so when you use your principle to embarrass [Translation: shame] them, they will always respect you.” [See translation of “respect” above.]
“Just take a look at the princess who just took it all away [referring to herself], and it will be easier to get closer to what you want.”
So he’s dealing with a woman who will shame him mercilessly if he ever happens to cross her egotistical pride. (This is a particularly Asian approach for dealing with men.)
Notice how she refers to men, including her husband, as “the boys“. He’s right… her pride is unbearable!
When he pointed out this message to his wife and asked her to explain, she fell into a silent, bitter mood. Her cool contempt was heartbreaking. He writes,
“I was so angry that I took a shower to cool off. After this, she refused to share any more of her messages with me and she locked her phone. What you [Jack] wrote about trust came to my mind here.”
I’m not sure exactly what he is referring to here, but I’ll guess that he’s referring to this.
“Men are taught, “a man’s word is his honor”, and they generally adhere to their natural bent towards logic and reason. But they make the mistake of allowing these hallmarks of masculinity to dictate their interactions with a woman. Women are naturally gifted at coopting these traits of man to their own purposes. Thus, men who naively believe that being honest, reasonable, and altruistic will increase their bonding with a woman are surprised when the woman hijacks the Head Trust, takes the driver’s seat in the relationship, and then fails to appreciate his “goodness”. Thus, if men do not become sufficiently self-aware of their own nature, they will continue on this path towards absconding their God given power and authority, thereby leading to the destruction of the union.”
Σ Frame: Creating and Maintaining Heart Trust (2019-04-28)
Later in the day, she complained about how he was always so unresponsive to her questions. He asked her if she was aware of the fact that he had just asked her a question not 10 minutes earlier as they were sitting there, and she totally ignored his question and started her rant. Then she changed the subject by comparing their relationship to that of another couple they knew, saying, “they seemed like a real couple last night at dinner, sharing food and ideas”, but she didn’t feel that they were the same way. There was obviously some fundamental differences in basic values. She complained about him some more, and when he shut her down, then she wanted to argue about whether he should accept investors for his new business. She went on like this for something like 20 minutes. At first, he just sat quietly and let her rant, thinking that she might have something important to say about the business. But after he found that her argument had no substance, and that she was just inciting more conflict, he excused himself and left the room.
She just won’t shut up with the proud mouthed tongue lashing! It’s better to just walk away.
Introspection and Resolution
This whole situation really p!ssed him off, and he didn’t know what to do about it. He decided to pray about it, hoping that God might give him some ideas. During his prayer, he remembered another post, The Greatest Archetype, and he got the idea that women (i.e. his wife) treat him the same way he treats God. When this idea hit him, he asked God about it very specifically,
“Do I treat You like these women treat me?”
God answered him and said,
“You used to, not too many years ago. You didn’t want to listen. You complained a lot. You demanded to have a wife and regular sex. You jumped the gun on marriage. You took matters into your own hands, and I could not work in your life. But now you’re all right. You’re in a place where I can work with you. Now it’s your wife’s turn to learn this.”
It is a fascinating question. Did he simply get what he deserved? “Like attracts like“, and all that?
“I had to ask God to forgive me for being that way.”
The question in my mind is, what will this forgiveness look like?
“The next morning, I decided to wear a watch my father had given me as a wedding present, just so I would be reminded of my father’s example, to stay patient, and not take my wife’s squabbles too seriously. Somehow, this gave me a lot of confidence.”
I assume that he hadn’t wanted to wear his watch to work in the past because the work involved chemicals and adhesives.
“Me and my business associate had a prayer together, and we mentioned a few of our clients, contractors, and suppliers by name. God answered my prayers, telling me that things would be OK, and I got a supreme sense of peace for the rest of the day.”
Yes, sometimes the best thing (and perhaps the only thing) a man can do is to step back, take a deep breath, and keep busy doing what he knows he needs to do.
I will guess that “forgiveness” in this case will be the success of his new business and a refinement of his character, but it’s hard to say how it will go with the wife.
A woman’s selfish pride is a tough nut to crack.
Exit Questions
- How does pride affect our relationships with God and with a spouse?
- Does your wife treat you the way you treat God?
- Does God treat you the way you treat your wife?
Related
- Σ Frame: Only noble born men are qualified to do housework for unicorns (2020 August 24)
- Σ Frame: Redefining Manhood as Boyish Immaturity (2021 June 14)
- Σ Frame: Do men need talk therapy? (2021 June 16)
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Σ Frame 
She sounds typical for her culture–
Women in secular groups are very status conscious, comparing themselves.
THEY feel ashamed amongst each other.
SHE is feeling ashamed because of what her female community thinks of her husband.
SHE is the one putting him down because that’s the (females) way of making people do things.
She thinks she is coming from a higher right principle as per her (female culture) upbringing.
Every woman in her female group culture thinks like her.
Typical…
She/they do not see that she is undermining/unsupportive.
She thinks she is “helping” hubby. This is how you “help”.
Being supportive and positive and optimistic towards hubby is considered “weak”. Don’t be a weak wife.
I know so many women like this.
When hubby doesn’t do things the way she wants, she sees HIM as weak. Therefore a “boy”. Therefore, she treats him like a boy.
I see this all my life. In so many marriages.
Sickening.
I think it’s in our nature–automatically.
The wife has to SEE it in her own nature and want to root it out.
Most just blame the man.
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I went through a period like this with Mrs. Apostle. I did not set boundaries and check her behavior and the behavior escalated. Now is the time to decide how you want to be treated and to enforce those as you see fit. Now is the time to start using words (don’t tell her what you are doing) that reflect headship and dominant male characteristics. The home is mine. The boys are mine. She is to be my competent manager of both.
Logically, as the husband (the meaning and origin of the word says it all) any failure will be on you, so you better take ownership of the command. Do not refer to you and your wife as a “team” because while you may employ teamwork at times, you, as the husband, are the general, she is the lieutenant, and as such the responsibility is always at your feet. God gave you children and her to help you bring them into being, so they are your children, not “our” children, and she is to raise them as you see fit. The home is “my house” not “our house” as God gave you your wife to be your household manager to run it as you instruct.
Changing your language is very much about changing the very concept in your being of who and what you are as a husband to correctly root out the current cultural feminist understandings of marriage. The husband is the center of the relationship, to be God’s image bearer and to have dominion over the earth (to be a ruler) and as a married man that starts with your household, your children and your wife even if she won’t admit it.
As this starts to sink in, you will realize that these things are here for you, not you for them. And while the language shift is subtle, the mindset shift is unambiguous.
Here’s an example of what I am referring to by this concept. Your wife puts on an outfit and she looks good in it. The typical husband comment is, “You look good in that.” Compare this to a husband who correctly sees himself as the center of the relationship. In the same situation he says, “I like the way you look in that.” The shift correctly recognizes her role as helpmeet and that she should please him and the statement centers on his feelings about her appearance.
Changing your mindset and your language will communicate dominance. If the wife reacts to this in a way that displeases you, then remove yourself from her presence. If she reacts the way you want her to, then reward that with your time and attention. I would start taking this approach immediately because while there is forgiveness there are consequences that do not go away even after the sins are forgiven.
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That’s why in the Scriptures the NIV 1984 and not the Gender Neutral corrupted NIV 2011.
It’s not “Family”, it’s “Father’s House”, or “Father’s Household”, because Man is the head of his family.
A Christian is from his Father’s Family.
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Info – This is a fantastic example of the power of language to impose an assumed frame. While family may sound similar to father’s household, especially in today’s culture, the implications for what the word choice means is a fundamental shift from truth.
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I’d never taken note of that before, but my husband does that: “I like your hair like that” or “I like that dress on you”, or conversely, “I don’t like your hair like that” or “I don’t like that dress on you.” I’ve been told to take something back and try again, 🙂
I am absolutely, positively, 100% certain that he is not cognizant of this as a definitive statement of himself as the center of things. He doesn’t think the world revolves around him, because he also refers to our relationship as a team. He readily acknowledges that what I bring to the table makes it possible for him to do much of what he does.
To him, It’s just basic logic that when his wife gets dressed, the only person’s opinion about her appearance that truly matters is his. I’ve struggled with that at times, but made the necessary adjustments. For instance he likes tank tops, and since we live in FL, most of the year provides tank top weather. The crowd we socialize with most are not tank top types. There is no overt judgment cast. Just the opposite, in fact. They are simply far more modest in their estimation of what a woman should wear; particularly in our age group.
I had to get over that and I did, because he buys my clothes.
I know more than one wife whose husband, in the wake of a job loss, got a hustle on doing something independent rather than immediately put himself at the mercy of a corporation again.
A couple of them have really been supportive and pulled out all the stops to help him make that work. Obviously I have no idea what kind of fresh hell any of those men were enduring at home at the end of each day, but their wives seemed supportive to me.
We too have endured job losses, one quite recently, and it was an opportunity for new ventures as well as an opportunity for both of us to do work more in keeping with our particular talents. It wasn’t easy, but even in my nervous moments, I had the good sense to know that adding to what was already a heavy burden (no matter how well hidden) would not only hinder forward progress, but would strain the relationship unnecessarily.
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Now I feel as if I let the cat out of the bag. 🙂 I hope this is one more aspect of God’s blessings in y’alls marriage to be thankful for.
Some men just naturally have this frame of reference and this is a good thing because it makes the delineation between the feminine and the masculine more distinct. Others have to force themselves into this mindset until it becomes second nature.
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Nah, RPA.
You didn’t expose anything or let any cats out of the bag. It’s as I said, just normal speech (ever since we’ve been together). The idea that it is strategic in nature will make him laugh, but I suspect he will appreciate the logic: “Common sense”, he’ll probably say. I’m gonna run it by him.
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Elspeth,
My guess is that SAM has not given this any thought at all because it is just who he is.
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RPA / Elspeth
Of course he doesn’t use it as a tactic/strategy. Of course he hasn’t given it thought. He ffg doesn’t need redpill. Hes a dominant male.
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This is what I mean by normal speech.
I have something of a routine, one that has been hardly ever disrupted. I get up at 5:15, and before the day starts (after Bible reading), I take out boxers, t-shirt, and appropriate socks to match whatever SAM is wearing. I put them on the bathroom counter so that when he gets out of the shower at 7, they’re ready and waiting. It’s not that much effort, not is it a big deal, really. It’s 90 seconds of my life.
But this morning, I didn’t do it because I was concerned about reading over an essay that his daughter (LOL) has to turn in this morning, so I went straight to the computer and started doing that, telling myself that I would remember to put his things out after I finished, but I didn’t want to forget to read her paper. As it turns out, I did forget to put his things out.
So he gets out of the shower, and says, “Where’s my stuff?” Being in something of a ‘mood” at that moment, I replied sarcastically, “Oh my gosh! You have to get your own underwear this morning.”
To which he replies, “How ’bout I stay home and ‘Oh my gosh! You have to go out and get your own money today’?” Ouch, and touché.
It was a moment, it passed quickly, we laughed it off. When he was leaving, we hugged and kissed and it really was over just that fast. But I know a few men who would have said, “Yeah. You’re right. I can get my own underwear. Sorry.”
Never even crossed his mind to wax apologetic, even as he deigned to reach into the bureau and get his own stuff out.
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@Elspeth
You know a few men? MOST men would say they’re sorry although most men wouldn’t even get to that point.
Most men don’t have a wife who gets his stuff for him every day as a matter of duty. Most men wouldn’t be able to get away with saying, “Where’s my stuff?” the one time you don’t do it. Most men wouldn’t be able to get away with saying the thing about you getting your own money.
Most men don’t have wives who would allow him to pick out her clothes and tell her what to wear.
What you mean by “normal” speech is it comes naturally to him. It is natural in the sense that it’s alpha speech. Alpha personality is somewhat inborn and is reinforced by how people react to natural alphas their entire lives.
This is part you (your willing submission) and part him (his natural alpha-ness). He has little awareness of his alpha-ness because he isn’t struggling for it – it’s who he is. That’s why his comments you report here sometimes come off to us as, “Just do it. Just conquer it. Just be a man (like me).” (I know he doesn’t literally say these things.)
I have a good marriage and my wife does e.g. do my laundry (doesn’t usually hang it up, doesn’t take it out of drier). She will make me a meal just for me if the kids have already eaten. I once bought her some long linen skirts from L.L. Bean. She wore them for awhile but someone thought she was Mennonite and she stopped. She knows I like skirts but most of the time wears knee length shorts or capris-baggy-mom jeans. SAM tells you he likes tank tops and you wear tank tops despite not fitting in with the more conservative dressed women in your social group.
I don’t get the level of attention and obedience you do. At least some of this is because I am less alpha than SAM.
Note this is not envy of SAM I’m expressing. I’m quite happy with what I have. I’m just noting difference and why.
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I had to threaten to divorce Mrs. Deti and shame her very, very publicly just to get her to stop being a b!tch. Fortunately, it didn’t take much more to get her to the point where she’ll do things like make lunches for me, but only if I ask.
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I have always gotten the impression that you are very happy with the relationship you have with your Mrs., so no worries.
One thing I have learned over the years (which I would love to have reciprocated in my direction), is that while a good marriage has a lot of general similarities in dynamic, the minutiae and details of what that looks like for each couple often varies wildly. There are men who have wives who love them extremely well, but in different ways; ways that are important to that man.
All that to say, I don’t ever assume anyone is envious of anything I have. Joshua Gibbs says people who are given to envy are those who lack imagination. I tend to agree with that sentiment. I’d also say they lack gratitude, and you don’t strike me as an ungrateful person.
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As husbands, we’ve all faced this at one time or another. We have to realize that we’re dealing with the adversary here. The contentious wife is often associated with an overt, abrasive, unruly individual, but contention is a broad category that includes a woman who wears a veneer of humility publicly while mistreating her husband in subtle, passive-aggressive ways privately. She destroys her marriage with a thousand paper cuts, acting as Solomon warned: “Every wise woman builds her house, but the foolish pulls it down with her hands.” (Prov. 14:1). This subtle aggression is sinister and evil, worse than any overt, physical assault. It is a state that is common today. It includes any woman who is so overtaken by her own pride and self-absorption that her heart is hardened toward her husband. Modern culture has emboldened and encouraged her pride and hostility toward him. [In the case study, she’s deliberately hardening her heart – “I don’t say, ‘I can do all the things for the boys’, because having a soft heart will become a tool for boys to use.”]
Additionally, Proverbs is plentiful in citing the overtly contentious woman:
• “It is better to dwell in a corner of the housetop than with a brawling woman in a wide house.” (Prov. 21:9)
• “It is better to dwell in the wilderness than with a contentious and angry woman.” (Prov. 21:19)
• “It is better to dwell in the corner of the housetop than with a brawling woman in a wide house.” (Prov. 25:24)
• “A continual dripping on a very rainy day and a contentious woman are alike; whoever restrains her restrains the wind, and grasps oil in his right hand” (Prov. 27:15–16)
• “For three things the earth is disquieted, and for four which it cannot bear: for a servant when he reigns, and a fool when he is filled with food, for a hateful woman when she is married, and a handmaid who is heir to her mistress.” (Prov. 30:21–23)
• “A foolish son is the calamity of his father, and the contentions of a wife are a continual dripping of water.” (Prov. 19:13)
Paul warns women against turning aside after Satan through speaking reproachfully: “Therefore I desire that the younger women marry, bear children, manage the house, and give no occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. For some have already turned aside after Satan.” (1 Tim. 5:14–15).
This is the manifestation of “. . . your desire will be for your husband . . . ” (Gen. 3:16). And to the advice already given, the husband needs to operate from his own frame – “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife . . .” (Gen. 3:17).
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Any woman with a contentious personality is automatic poison and will destroy any Man who marries said woman.
Contentious Women shouldn’t even get Husbands until they fix that.
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Contentious women are not fixable by men. They have to reach a point of personal suffering from rejection that they want to change themselves. It is rare that this point is ever reached.
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But men love to marry and reproduce with contentious women. Why do you think there are so many of them?
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@ imnobody00
The trade space for men’s choice of a woman is “hot” vs. “agreeable.” Some men will choose a contentious woman in their pursuit of “hot.” Also some women act agreeable until he puts a ring on it. I know of cases in my family where the woman acted all demure and such until married and then……
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@cameron232
How long can a woman remain demure before she becomes tired of the pretense and it comes out prior to a ring? Perhaps higher-pressure situations will deplete her mental energy that allows her to keep on her mask and will show her true character in the same way the wilderness showed forth Israel’s true character.
Maybe women need similar tests to force the pretenses to come down.
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I like the habit of translating current relational euphemisms back into Biblical terms.There seems to be no end to the euphemisms we come up with to describe something for modern ears that was already referenced in some way in the Bible. For example, Tomi Lahren’s attitiude as the stereotypical modern day woman, has been dissected in in a bazillion ways by Manospherian commenters; however, if I had to choose one Biblical word to describe her and her ilk, it would be CONTENTIOUS, as in the CONTENTIOUS WOMAN from scriptural references. In this case, one Biblical word (two if you add woman), and it’s case closed.
And you hit the nail on the head lastholdout with all the scripture you referenced. The one I liked the best to describe TL and her sisters out there: “A continual dripping on a very rainy day and a contentious woman are alike; whoever restrains her restrains the wind, and grasps oil in his right hand.” (Prov 27:15–16)
There truly is ‘nothing new under the sun.’
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If every woman is as aware of their own “game” that they could articulate it the way she did, then I’d say men are at least 50 years behind! Her “principle” is disturbing. It is one thing for a woman to behave without being conscious of her motives (other than her emotions), but to have a “principle” that is well thought through places her in the realm of a military opponent, not a spouse who vowed ‘til death do us part.
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Totally off topic.
Fr Dragoljub Popovich from Holy Evangelist and Apostle Saint Luke Serbian Mission and Parish in Leander Tx is having severe complications from COVID. The prognosis is not good. This is the man who brought me back to Orthodoxy, converted my wife, remarried us in the church and baptized all four of my children. Please pray for him. He is a good man and has served since his days as a chaplain in the Yugoslavian army, over 50 years.
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He is a protopresbyter, which is the equivalent clerical rank to bishop for RC. He left his very high position in Chicago to start the mission in Tx, with basically no budget or support and it is a thriving Serbian community now.
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Did you ever consider settling there Scott?
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Yes, but I can’t stand the weather and there are no mountains.
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I’m with you man. I love mountains and cold weather. I live in the worst possible place.
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@Scott:
Will pray today for your priest.
@ Cameron:
The worst possible place, LOL?
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Elspeth,
Yeah that wasn’t worded well by me. I meant “worst possible place” in the sense that it’s the complete opposite for a person who likes a lot of terrain relief and cold weather. Florida is the complete opposite.
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Somehow I thought Mychael was still Catholic.
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Orthodox church won’t recognize marriage between RC and Orthodox. Other way around is OK though.
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Thanks for the mention. The divorce has seriously hurt her pride.
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OT rambling.
Here’s the piece I was actually looking for when I posted something from this site the other day:
http://masculineprinciple.blogspot.com/2015/03/the-fraud-of-modern-marriage.html
I would add that this is the case for marriages involving beta males (or lower) i.e. most men. So marriage is “transactional” for most couples.
When is this not the case? When he’s an alpha male (at least from the female perspective it’s not transactional in this case) or a man she has visceral attraction to. There’s less of a “transactional” quality when the woman wants to have sex with the man anyway (he’s an “alpha” for her).
When else is this not the case? When BOTH spouses are obedient to God in the sense of actively loving (in the agape way) their spouse by giving themselves freely and joyfully. This is the ideal. I would say this is uncommon in marriages (even Christian marriages) nowadays.
Women don’t want their sexuality “owned” by men who they aren’t much attracted to. Men don’t want their labor/time/commitment “owned” by women who don’t desire them.
To the woman it feels like prostitution. To the man it feels like slavery and pointless sacrifice/opportunity cost.
For men it’s Russian roulette. Even more so for a Christian man because you have little or zero option for divorce and/or remarriage (depending on denomination, Biblical understanding). No wonder Jesus’s disciples reacted to His teaching with, “If this is the case, it’s best not the marry.”
No this isn’t the ONLY reason for marital breakdown. But it’s a big one.
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There’s also a “transactional” quality at the aggregate/societal level and not just with individual relationships. Women exchanged ownership of their sexuality for civilization. For comforts and security and not sitting on dirt floors under palm branch lean-tos. This is no longer evident to women. It’s assumed that what we have (civilization and it’s material benefits) just somehow “happened” and is held in place by magical forces. No need to “transact” with men anymore.
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I would add WRT one of Elspeth’s common objections.
The entire point of this isn’t blackpilled wallowing in hopelessness for the middle-aged men in bad marriages that post here. There is a reason to inform unmarried male readers so that they can make a (qualitative) risk assessment with regard to getting married. There is a reason to inform men who may have options for divorce and remarriage (the biblical Protestant reasons, a Catholic or Orthodox who has reason to believe his marriage is not sacramental and can seek an annulment, the secular readers who have no moral opposition to divorce and remarriage). This isn’t about embracing hopelessness.
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I wanted to add one more thought to something you said, Cameron:
The first is that I imagined what that whole exchange probably sounds like to any woman who might run across it. Probably pretty terrible. That’s not how it was. It was a light moment, really. He wasn’t mean, his tone wasn’t angry, none of that. It was a matter of fact statement that was actually true. We were laughing at ourselves, really.
The other thought was the perception of the things I do as extra work or extra attentive, or as most wives have told me they perceive it, extra burdensome. None of those things even come close to how I experience the things that I do for SAM. The way I think of it when I lay out his stuff, iron his clothes, make his breakfast (all usually before 7:30) as between 45 and 60 minutes out of a 24 hour day to do something for someone who is working a minimum of 10 hours a day to provide all the things for me.
It’s not burdensome. It’s not special. I’m already gathering my own stuff. I’m already ironing my own clothes. The breakfast is extra because I don’t always eat breakfast, but if I was doing that for the kids, no one would see it as a problem. And they would be fine with it even though our youngest is 13; more than old enough to cook her own breakfast.
All that to say that a large part of what ails women in marriage is our own attitudes. Which is the thing no one wants to deal with.
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Cameron,
In all the scenarios you outlined above, the transactional nature of marriage still exists. There is no way around this reality because no matter how the people in the marriage perceive it, the marriage is a set of vows, voluntarily entered into that lock each person into behavioral performance standards.
In the case of the alpha that a woman is crazy about, she perceives that she comes out way ahead in the deal and goes to great lengths to makes sure her performance meets his expectations. The reason for the transaction it to keep the alpha.
In the case of 2 believers being obedient to God, they both exchange promises of performance. The incentive for performance is based on a faith that is larger than the individuals. If you think about this further to marriage being the model of Christ and the church, this “marriage” is quite transactional, just that in this case the fulfilment of the covenant is unilateral.
In the old testament there is a similar example (a Christophany) in the covenant between God and Abraham in Genesis 15. God enters into the covenant with Abraham, where God will make Abraham into His people if Abraham follows God’s law, and fulfills both parts of the covenant ceremony. It is why Abraham is put in a trance/unconscious state (the state of man with regards to his redemption) and the torch passes through the bisected animal which should have been Abraham’s part, basically saying let this (the splitting in half) happen to me if I don’t keep my part of the covenant. Because he never would be able to keep his part, following God’s law, God did it for him.
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@RPA,
I agree but women also have sex with betas that they want to get or keep. The difference with the alpha is she WANTS to have sex with him, thoroughly ENJOYS sex with him, is enthusiastic. So I think it seems and is (relatively) less “transactional” for her. It probably feels more like transactional prostitution when she does it more for BetaBob’s paycheck than for the actual positive experience of sex with BetaBob.
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Sex that feels like she is doing it out of obligation or to get something from you is actually worse than no sex at all.
So…. Next!
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There is a phenomenon called I think “Maiden’s love” which is that a woman falls hard for the Man who is her first. And is known to be very clingy in comparison to women who had multiple Men. Since she isn’t Alpha widowed in the first place you are the best she had and will ever have.
This explains one reason why beautiful virgin women are preferred as wives as the Scripture itself heavily leans towards. Although such women are vanishingly rare to non-existent nowadays.
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Yeah, I think there’s a sort of “imprinting” that occurs. Both in terms of initial attraction, experience, and, yes, sex. “You never forget your first” is something that I’ve heard some women say.
It can be an alpha widow thing but it’s not just an alpha widow thing. They lose or at least damage their ability to pair-bond/emotionally connect during sex with their n-teenth sex partner. WHEN this happens, to what degree, etc. probably varies from woman-to-woman and with circumstances, but the important point is a potential hubby can’t predict these things, even if he had an accurate (cough!) n-count. N-count is a powerful predictor of short term and long term marital stability.
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I think a big part of what happens to women is just that women lose their wide eyed innocence and sense of wonder and “newness”. They get jaded, cynical, and wizened.
I’ve actually heard this more than once from women. “Guys are like city buses. They’re all the same and serve the same purposes. If you miss this one, just stay there and wait a while, because another one will be along soon.”
This truly is the attitude most women have about men.
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@deti,
It is a sad reality that decent men (the type women SAY they want) are de facto punished by their wives on the basis of the wrongs that the wife committed against him before they were married (giving what is rightfully his to douchebags), and even the wrongs committed against him WHILE they are married. See F. Roger Devlin’s “Rotating Polyandry”, specifically the first section, for examples and evidence of this.
[Jack: I did a search for Devlin’s work, and I discovered that Goggle has totally shadowbanned it. Using Edge, I found a post from Dalrock on top, Rotating Polyandry and it’s Enforcers (2011-06-27). Links to Devlin’s original essay can be found there.]
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Examples and descriptions of the latter from Rotating Polyandry. Described within the context of unfaithful wives and from actual interviews and surveys, NOT mere Manosphere speculation:
Yes, these are from a study of troubled relationships (NAWALT) but the reviewed book is enough to show this is common and to show the female emotional mechanisms behind this.
Good men are punished for women’s pre AND post marriage-ceremony infidelity.
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I would add “obedience” as a critical factor in performance. That is, obedience to the commands and admonitions in Scripture pertaining to the h/w relationship. The church community is proficient at citing the man’s obedience, but fails to provide any check on the woman’s heart. Agapé and her obedience moves the relationship from one of feeelz to one of will. She has the capacity to move her heart to a non-transactional state by her own will by governing her thoughts (resisting the hamster). As cited in the OP, it is their pride that blinds them, but where is that rooted? “For some have already turned aside after Satan.” (1 Tim. 5:15) [He also feeds her hamster.] I’ve cited before on this blog plenty of women (authors and bloggers) who have revealed their own self-willed journey in setting down their pride and becoming obedient to their biblical call as married women and, thereby, attaining the loving relationship they so desired; so I believe it is possible.
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@lastholdout
Well said.
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I’m playing thread catch up. Yes. Absolutely true. I totally believe this. I believe that just as women’s emotions can be manipulated in other ways, so can a wife — at first by will to action, and then by practicing corralling her thoughts — she can develop real and true passion for her husband, if there was ever a spark there to begin with.
For example, Jack made note in a recent post that sometimes women like certain music because it induces (if I remember correctly) something of a sensual or sexual feeling. So… what if a wife listens to a song that provokes a specific memory she shared with her husband, either during or prior to marriage, even if that song isn’t particularly holy, LOL. If that gets the husband what he wants, and she is sufficiently obedient because she is a “godly wife” and engaged, does the fact that some external stimuli was a part of the moment make it less valuable than a moment I share with my husband which didn’t require external stimuli? I don’t think so.
Also, consider Scott’s statement that his wife is kind of “addicted”, I believe he said, to the whole romantic dance between them. I can relate to that, because it is fun to keep stoking that connection. Why couldn’t some other wife do that, even if she has to get there by the scenic route?
I spend a fair amount of time encouraging wives, and I offer suggestions of ways that they can reconnect, and I have heard some pretty remarkable reports.
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@ Elspeth
You will be blessed because of your faith and obedience . . .
“Likewise, older women should be reverent in behavior, and not be false accusers, not be enslaved to much wine, but teachers of good things, that they may teach the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, and to be self-controlled, pure, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be dishonored.” (Titus 2:3–5).
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1) Even when spouses are in this mindset, it does little for actual real visceral sexual attraction from her to him. Even a woman who is being obedient still has her feelings, and her feelings of disattraction for her husband will still wear on her.
2) The effects of disattraction are magnified 100-fold when there are absolutely no mechanisms in place to enforce her wifely obligations. Women are water and take the shape of whatever containers your pour them into. It used to be that a woman was given a a man or picked one, and she was told “Here is your ‘container’. This is the only one you get, so DEAL WITH IT.”
Today, women are told, “If you don’t like the containers, you can get rid of the one you picked, make your own container, or be uncontained, and there’s not one damn thing men can do about that. They just have to deal with it.”
When a man has no container, isn’t permitted to decide what container to use, or his woman refuses to be poured into the container her husband decides upon, well, there’s not much a man can do about that. We’ve empowered women at the expense of men.
When we empowered men to pick the containers, everyone benefited from it. Now that we let women pick the containers, everyone suffers. There are no mechanisms in place to enforce a wife’s obligations to her husband. The only “checks” on her behavior are her own conscience and moral compass. She doesn’t have to do a damn thing she doesn’t want to do.
The only logical response to this by men is to say “no”. “No, I’m not getting into that kind of a marriage.” “No, you cannot act like that and stay married to me.” “No, I won’t put up with that, and if it continues you will not be my wife anymore.”
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There’s no such thing as “equality”.
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A woman in a “container” is like a glass of ice water. She is useful to herself and others. She is refreshing and controlled and orderly.
A woman out of a “container” is like spilling that glass of ice water. The water is wasted. You can’t drink it now. It is a mess, it’s all over the place and it needs to be sopped up. There’s nothing you can do with it after it’s sopped up other than to put it in the laundry and hope it will be cleaned later.
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Today is my 14th anniversary
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Traditionally, the 14th anniversary is to be celebrated by having sex all day. This is especially emphasized in Orthodox cultures.
And the 15th and the 16th……..
Helping ya’ out bro! 😊
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Well, I’m working at a remote location today so we’re not even in the same county right now.
So I made her this super sappy totally beta video and she went crazy over it when she woke up to it this morning.
So I’m good until I see her again.
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But no matter what you do, Scott, it won’t be seen as “totally beta” because Mychael could not be more smitten with you.
A less alpha man, all beta, does the exact same thing, the divorce papers are on file the next day.
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That was the sweetest video! Oh my gosh, 😁
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Happy Anniversary, Scott and Mychael❤!
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Ditto Scott!
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As the girls and beta dudes like me like to say – awwww!!
@1:53 – dang man, you two get a room!!
PS, Orthodox tradition is that when you miss sex on your anniversary you have to do it 2X as much when you see each other again. 🙂
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You may not remember it, but the cackling hens over at Two Birds and a Stone HATED that picture when Mychael posted it on our old website. They said it was “creepy”.
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My daughter “caught” us in the kitchen and snapped it.
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Not creepy. Picture probably triggered other negative feelings. It was a gratuitous display of your love and passion for each other which a lot of couples don’t have.
My tendency is to be happy for people but I’m not a harpie-woman.
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I’m with you. I get satisfaction from seeing others couples who clearly like each other.
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I mean, I hate to sound so cliché, but it just seemed like envy/jealousy. Probably haven’t felt that way about their husbands (the picture obviously imbues) in a long time, maybe ever.
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Yeah, that was my fancy way of saying they’re probably jealous. Here’s the thing – women (not our women’s auxillary) have all these emotional triggers. We have had really weird female reactions when we have the babies. Some women are really bothered when they can’t have one or when their husband won’t give them one, etc. Your baby can really upset them.
Not really blaming women- the emotional thing – it’s kind of just how they’re made.
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One of the things that Dalrock used to say was that marriage provides the [moral] context to pursue sex and romance. (Hence, the name of our blog together, Morally Contextualized Romance). He was juxtaposing this rubric against the society, which says love is the ingredient that makes sex, love and even marriage valid.
And when you think about it, its like, “Duh. No kidding.”
But what I really resonated with was his use of the word “pursue.” It’s like marriage, when done right, is freedom. Its the ultimate “safe space”
You are announcing to the world, “Me and this person are going to aggressively pursue this romance in a bubble of protection provided by God himself. And if you don’t like the way we do it, go f%$# yourself.”
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And all we ever hear about is how patriarchal and oppressive marriage is.
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Happy Anniversary Scott
Marriage is patriarchal because God made it that way. People who don’t like this add the oppressive part because they refuse to see that boundaries often free us. My 6 year old is a great example of this. If I set parameters for him to operate within, he’s great. It lets him be himself and enjoy life. If I don’t give him those boundaries he does not know how to deal yet with the uncertainty and it stifles him because the safety of having his daddy set the rules isn’t there.
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Happy anniversary!
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Congratulations and Happy Anniversary.
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A very happy anniversary to you both!
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I’m not trying to pick a fight, Deti. But surely you must have heard a man say this before? I have heard more than one man say it, and I don’t mean on the Internet.
On the subject I mentioned earlier:
I told a friend of mine, one who knows me and SAM well and has a deep appreciation for how I love him, and how he loves me, about our exchange this morning. She laughed along with me because she understood it for what it was in a way that other women do not. While they (good wives and women), are usually hung not only on the idea that I do such things, but that he has the nerve to expect them, she totally got it. But that’s because she totally gets us, and has an inside track.
Anyway, the whole thing got me thinking about language on a more grand scale, so I wrote a little post about it. I don’t have the mental acuity at present to go deeper, but I wanted to jot something down:
https://readingbetweenthelife.com/2021/08/26/on-mother-tongues-and-functional-community/
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Even the good wives/women don’t do those things and think he has nerve to expect them?
Sounds like more proof your marriage is highly atypical.
Couples do have “inside” language/jokes. Mine says I should get a second wife, should trade her in for a younger model. I sometimes call her my favorite wife. Were kidding but some people would be horrified if they didn’t know.
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No, I have not heard men say this. Because most men don’t have this kind of experience with women. Maybe the men you know say things like this; but men like me don’t. Maybe if I’d treated women more like the men you know treat women, I’d have had better luck.
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In my experience husbands dont talk about wives like this. The only men who talk about women like this are promiscuous men. Guys that next a woman when she becomes too difficult.
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I wasn’t referring to husbands.
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Yes there have always been men that say swinish things. I see more wives saying negative things about husbands than the reverse. Who knows, maybe it was the opposite in ye olden days and now it’s payback time. I have seen direct evidence that at least some feminism is motivated by team woman revenge.
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You know Deti:
All of the Christian men in my life and family treat their women well. Extremely well, in fact. Did they make mistakes during their younger, non Christian years? Absolutely. Do they or have they ever worshipped a woman? No.
But I think I am going to spare you (and me) this tug of war with a break for a while.
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Had to post this. Ol’ Blue Eyes had it right. A good expression of the tension a man has between of what he is tempted and what he knows what should be . . .
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In most cases, it’s because they have trained their marriages in a different direction. They’re good in many ways, but there is a sense (not all that uncommon among GenX wives and younger), that laying out your husband’s clothes or underwear is tantamount to “mothering” him. There are actually men who feel that way as well.
Interestingly, after I shared this morning’s incident with my friend whom I knew would totally get it, she recounted times when her dad got out of the shower and called out, “Janet! Where’s my underwear?” when her mom forgot to put them out while he showered. So basically, my husband and I are throwbacks from another era, and I recognize that.
We enjoy each other so very much that I have long since ceased to be bothered by any side-eyed assessments about what I do that he should be doing for himself. According to the norms of the postmodern era, I should be out there earning my own money, too. But I’m not.
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Mychael picks out what I wear most days
She’s pretty good at it and she says she does it to make sure I look like a doctor. Otherwise I would wear jeans and a t-shirt with Chuck Taylor’s.
To me it feels like I’m being cherished and taken care of. It’s cute.
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She’s particularly concerned about it when I have to testify in court.
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So we’re not the only throwbacks? Yay!
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No, in fact, if I asked her to do it (pick out my clothes) every day she would probably pass out with joy.
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It goes both ways.
I leave way before she gets up in the morning. And every morning I set up the coffee machine so all she has to do is hit the button.
She loves it.
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Yes, Scott. In a great marriage, the giving always goes both ways. SAM does little things for me as well; especially on the mornings when I have a tight schedule because I have to teach. He may cook me eggs, or iron my dress, etc. His work schedule is way more flexible so he can leave home whenever, so he is helpful to me when I need it.
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Any couple can that can find joy–true joy–in taking care of each other wins.
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I agree Scott. I’m pretty spoiled by SAM. He is really into grand romantic gestures and it’s not an exaggeration to say he takes excellent care of me.
What I’ve found over the years is that women see what I do for him as more…taxing? than what they perceive he does for me. But I love serving him and he loves taking care of me.
The general tenor is that when women do a lot for their husbands, they are going above and beyond. But when a husband works hard for his wife and family, he’s simply doing what he’s supposed to do.
Speaking of which, mine just stopped working. Yeah…
So, night night.
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My wife believes all housework is her job. I sometimes surprise her by folding the huge volume of clean laundry. When I do anything like this she is always grateful. She pushes back at other women’s complaining (which is the norm). One woman complained her husband took out the garbage but didn’t change the bag – she told her to be grateful for what he did.
She seems to find joy in serving men. My dad had diabetes and awful foot problems. She used to give my dad pedicures (unrequested). My mom would see it and grumble that she wouldn’t touch his gross feet. She used to give him haircuts and she cuts mine. So yeah she has that servants heart.
The good women you describe dont want to do things like you do for SAM because it’s subservient like Edith Bunker. The picking out of clothes for her is seen as controlling whether it’s for modesty reasons or for his personal tastes (SAM’s tank tops vs my preference for skirts). I think my very good wife saw the skirt thing as somewhat controlling so my guess is the difference is Sam’s greater alpha qualities. It’s easier and more natural to submit to an alpha – “it just kinda happens”
My maternal grandfather was a very dominant male (knife fights in his youth, etc). Dominant but never abusive. Less outwardly lovey-dovey than SAM. My grandmother was quite submissive to him although he didn’t order her around. She had the servants heart too. I wonder if when women submit to an alpha if it doesnt carry over to how they act towards everyone.
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Dominant but never abusive. Less outwardly lovey-dovey than SAM. My grandmother was quite submissive to him although he didn’t order her around. She had the servants heart too. I wonder if when women submit to an alpha if it doesnt carry over to how they act towards everyone.
This resonates, because I am always a little taken aback when I hear someone refer to my husband as “intimidating”. My mind goes, “Huh? Really? I don’t see it.” Until I put myself in their shoes. By that, they don’t mean that he is unkind, or not personable, He almost never meets a stranger. It’s something else.
He is very affectionate at home. The kids are like, “Sheesh!” But to the outside it’s a different dynamic. It’s more a keen sense of his protectiveness. As a recent example, I was going to visit my brother who has been having some health issues. I’d cooked him up some dishes, did some other things. Anyway, he has this dog, and she is very temperamental. I don’t like her. He asked me to call him when I pulled up so he could put her away because, “I don’t want to get into with [SAM] because he comes over here thinking he can shoot my dog.” Here’s the funny part.
I hadn’t told my brother this, but when I left home SAM said, “Tell your brother I said, ‘Don’t make me have to bring my gun over there and shoot that dog over my wife'”. That is the general reputation he has.
If I’m not feeling well and am dragging my feet about a physical, it won’t be long before I get a call from the doc’s office confirming an appointment that he bothered to make on my behalf. Stuff like that. You can’t just say anything to his wife. You can’t just say anything ABOUT his wife. Etc.
Not a lot of PDA, although he won’t hesitate to kiss me goodbye if we’re parting ways in the presence of others.
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El, I bet if you think about it, most people see Sam as a bear/dangerous animal, nice to look at but sure as ‘s#&t’ don’t feed him, touch him or mess with ‘HIS’ slueth (mama bear and cubs).
I’ve been described as ‘scary’, and ‘intimidating’, a lot. I just don’t see it, but that’s how the world generally views me, but that’s adults. Now kids, they think I’m a giant teddy bear that also doubles as a jungle gym.
Last month a friend of the family came to my parents house with her 10yr old. The girl has a rare genetic disorder (Cri-du-chat syndrome) and it wasn’t long before she asked to be picked up and we played for a good 15 minutes. What a joy and blessing it was to meet someone like that. It’s heart breaking to know that she probably won’t make it to adulthood, but God does work miracles everyday.
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@ white guy:
Yeah. Kids love my husband. And generally, once the ice is broken, he easily slides into congenial conversations with any and every one. He finds people and their unique stories fascinating in a way that I do not. Or at least, he makes them feel that way. But when he’s not feeling it, he’s not.
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Children are naturally drawn to me. I am not intimidating to them or to adults. My pastor friend David used to get mad because groups of children were drawn to me and not him. He literally likened it to the pictures of Jesus surrounded by children (yes I’m an infinite distance from the Lord). Unlike Scott I naturally tend to like other people’s children and they trust me. So do animals for some reason my wife has noted both.
I have a violent temper if pushed to a certain point. My wife came home to me with a wrapped bloody fist when I was in college. This is not alpha like SAM. More like a shy sharp dog who is viscious when cornered and unable to retreat. An alpha like SAM is calmly dominant and doesnt tend to avoid confrontations. I am the amiable type.
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To a modern woman who doesnt value and/or look up to her man:
Him picking out her clothes = controlling (“no way that betas going to tell me what to wear.”
To women, clothing is a really important expression. If she let’s him tell her what to wear she’s quite submitted.
Her picking out his clothes = “subservient” or “being his mom”
When she willingly does this she values him and wants her man to look good. Mychael is highly attracted to Scott and wants him to look sharp and in line with his high (professional and physical) status. Mychael loved Scott in his uniform, loves him in his court clothes. HER man, enthusiastically.
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Yep! See it in real life!
In family and church. The women are disappointed and blame the man.
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“What I’ve found over the years is that women see what I do for him as more…taxing? than what they perceive he does for me.“
They apparently view marriage through a transactional lens . . . as opposed to agapé.
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Even if they do view it through a transactional lens, and they are at home with the kids (which I grant you is genuine work, especially when they are young and even more so if you have several young ones like Cam’s wife), there’s still a lot of flexibility there. The older the kids get, the more flexible life becomes.
Besides sex, a lot of the little things a wife can do to make her husband feel valued are things she is already doing for herself and the kids. I don’t see the issue with doing it for your husband unless you simply have an inherent aversion to serving you husband. I wouldn’t trade places with my husband, because I see that the work he does is in many ways far more demanding than my time at home.
I picked up an extremely part time gig this fall, where I work in person, away from home, a grand total of 3 hours a week. There is work that I do from home, but it adds up to about 9 or 10 hours worth of work.
I was at it for two weeks, and I joked to my husband (but with a grain of truth thrown in), “I don’t think this working stuff is for me. You mind if I quit?” LOL! I’m not quitting. I actually like it.
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My wife regularly expresses gratitude to me for working. She knows how bad work stinks. She doesn’t have a boss (technically it’s me but I’m not real demanding), she can’t be fired, if she screws up the family doesn’t go under, she doesn’t have to listen HR calling her racist just for existing, she doesn’t have to wake up at 4 a.m. She is surrounded by little people who love her back, not people clawing at each other for who gets the promotion to senior staff engineer.
Her job is busy but I help. The only time I fall short is after 9 p.m. when I’m passing out because I have to do it all over again at 4 a.m.
I think perfect agape by both spouses is ideal. In the real world all relationships have some degree of transactional nature.
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I just realized that my statements could invoke a lot of objection if I were among women. Not all women have a lot of flexibility in their lives. Raising kids well is hard.
My point was that women almost always ascribe higher value to our work and less value to the value that men add. More than that, there is precious little thought given to the burden a husband carries, while men (even mine!) seem to always be cognizant of how much their wives contribute to the family. Which is why I say that even if they ARE viewing marriage through a transactional lens, their valuation calculator is so skewed, they can’t even get that right. If they did, they would be much less inclined to feel put upon when expected to meet a husband’s needs.
And I have never, ever had any problem saying this to women face to face because I believe it just that strongly.
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Elspeth: “Well, your husband works really hard right? He carries the burden of being the main or only bread winner? If he became incapacitated or dead your entire lifestyle and quality of life would end? He also helps around the house, helps with the kids? Then what’s the big deal about giving him a big sweet smile and a kiss when he gets home? And maybe even some sex that you might not be super into at the moment?”
Every American wife on earth: “You are friggin crazy.”
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Scott. the sex part you know why. Because sex isn’t a neutral experience for them. It is qualitatively different than working for someone, doing something for someone. It is a negative, very negative experience when they’re not attracted. “Marital rape” as described by women doesnt just mean being physically forced to do it with hubby.
Obviously the other answer to your question is they don’t do those things to maintain power and/or they don’t love him
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My husband works so hard, I have literally decided that unless there is a real and unambiguous reason, I will not turn him down physically. Ever. And I told him so. As in, “Feel free even to wake me up, I don’t mind. I am open to you. Period. I can just take a nap before cooking dinner tomorrow”, and I sometimes have to do that. He cares about me, so he doesn’t expect sick me to be on like that. He’s not a brute or a buffoon. That declaration has not subjected me to callousness or abuse. Just the opposite, actually.
But this is a man who works a regular 50 hour a week job. He’s got a couple of independent clients that he does work for besides (I am his receptionist/bookkeeper/secretary). So he works maybe 70 hours on a light week, compared to my 12-ish paid work hours, plus managing kids’ stuff. But they’re teens, so I mostly make sure they do what they’re supposed to, drive around a lot, and cook, and do laundry. Everyone cleans around here. So expending some extra energy into the man who makes all of this possible seems like such a small premium.
But again, we don’t have small children so what is possible for me isn’t always possible for other wives. However, I do believe that they should make an effort to do what is reasonable for them in order to meet their “quotas”, 🙂
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My wife nurses on demand until the baby shows signs of wanting to wean. This has been as little as 11 months. Currently it will be three years in November . Three years in a separate room limits opportunities even for a wife who doesnt deny.
I don’t like the mentality of a trade. I don’t like the idea of trading my four-12 hour days and 2 hour daily commute and share of work around the house and childcare for four 10 minute quickies or even having the mentality I’m “owed” something or else! Non-rapist non-perv men want non transactional, non-coerced desire sex.
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I don’t like the mentality of a trade. I don’t like the idea of trading my four-12 hour days and 2 hour daily commute and share of work around the house and childcare for four 10 minute quickies or even having the mentality I’m “owed” something or else! Non-rapist non-perv men want non transactional, non-coerced desire sex.
I hope I didn’t imply transactional intimacy. I thought I was implying a default posture of openness and willingness based in joyful gratitude, not trade. That idea actually repulses me, and I know for a doubt it repulses my husband. What you described above does not sound like fun, neither does it sound romantic, and we don’t roll like that around here. A man who puts on music spontaneously and dances with his wife wouldn’t come near her if she hinted that she is repaying his effforts with sex. He’d rather do without. Well, mostly, LOL 🙂
But I think Scott’s initial point was that for the wife who isn’t feeling it. That she needs to open her eyes, find some gratitude, and come up with a reason why she should love her husband well anyway.
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The baby made various messes while wife and big sister went for guitar lessons today. The latest was clogging the sink with TP so she could play with her rubber ducky. Been cleaning these messes all day in between flapping my gums on these websites LoL. Point is we do work AaND help and try to give wives and children happy lives.
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Havent given this much thought – thinking out loud.
My mind wants to draw the distinction between agape and transactional, agape being the selfless willing of the good of the other reflecting God’s love. God’s love does not emanate from a need.
Response based on being grateful seems to have a transactional quality. Gratefulness is appreciation of what’s received, appreciation involving the under standing of value received. This seems to have a transactional quality.
The idea of a transaction that involves formal agreement (verbal or written) seems icky wrt sex I get it. But how is “you did something for me, I’ll do something for you” not transactional. The formal spoken agreement just lays it bare which makes not “feel right.” Gratefulness involves feeling and leaves this concealed/unspoken so it feels “right.”
Not wedded to this view – open to others.
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This is -mostly- theoretical for me as well. SAM cranks my engine just fine 99% of the time.
But there are days, not just concerning sex but other areas as well, when I act because, yeah, that’s the least I can do. If that’s transactional, then guilty as charged. Let’s pan out, though.
Why do you obey God? Does God value your obedience less if you don’t feel emotional euphoria in your obedience?
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Women can’t force themselves to feel emotional euphoria or attraction. That doesn’t release them from obedience (in God’s eyes). I think what caught my attention was negative reaction to things being transactional which strikes me as somewhat naive in the real world.
That SAM only fails to crank your engine once every 2 years makes it mostly irrelevant to you but points to the fact that it’s very relevant to most men. If that comment has an “ah haa, gotcha!” sound to it I apologize but it’s part of what Deti and RPA are telling you (in their own special way 🙂
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Wait…are you switching lanes?
I thought you were the one with the naive negative reaction to anything in marriage being transactional.
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Maybe. I don’t like the idea of trading. As I said desire sex is ideal. I dont know what % of the time I get that. Probably less than SAMs 99%.
How it makes me feel doesnt really matter. What’s true is what matters or at least is what’s interesting. Again noodling on all this.
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Maybe 90% was more accurate 🤔. Now that I think about it, 99 sounds unicorn-ish. And I ain’t that.
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Ok 90% Elspeth. Many men get 10, 5….0%. Many men’s get the percent corresponding to her ovulation window and are among the more fortunate. Not manosphere – real world guys.
Is “exchange” more palatable than “transaction.”
Marriage is a good exchange for alphabux like SAM and Scott and Mike. It’s not a good deal for betas.
It will be three years in November of sleeping alone and limited sex opportunities and sex being real quick. Everything else in the way. I make more than enough but she insisted on installing the dishwasher ourselves. Now we are having to fix the leak. Then we will go out to work on the treehouse for the kids. Now her stomach hurts because I took her out and we gorged on Mexican food contra my recommendation we get something lite. I feel like a beggar in line waiting for scraps of her time even though I help with EVERYTHING. I love our 2yo daughter but she wanted a baby – I gave her what she wanted which is now keeping us apart.
Mychael somehow manages (see Scott’s comment yesterday) even though she has 5 children and is a nurse and I doubt she’s lazy with children and housework. Somehow Mychael manages all fighters – I dont expect that. The difference? Scott’s an alphabux who makes $200+K. SAM’s an alphabux. Liz has sex with Mike everyday (fighter/airline pilot). Marriage isnt a good exchange from a betas perspective.
Marriage is done for most. She doesnt sh!t test me like many but she will react to this with a love/comfort test. “If he loves me he”ll understand” My acceptance of lack of what makes me feel loved, desired and appreciated will become a test of whether I make her feel loved. That’s a perfect inversion of a “loving exchange” I’m sure she rationalizes it by doing other things – I can go to a barber or Publix for a sub and throw my own clothes into the machine men invented. I can’t have sex with a stylist or the deli girl at Publix.
I know this all bothers you because you want husbands for daughters and grandkids but marriage is not a fair exchange for betas and I am one of the luckier betas.
If I dont merit what Scott and SAM merit then I dont want the responsibility and headaches and want my life back.
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Well, seeing as Mrs. Cameron has 8(?) kids, several still young, which presumably you helped produce in fealty to your Catholic faith, I’d pour heaping measures of grace on her.
We haven’t had very young children in several years. When we had lots of Littles underfoot, quickies were what we had time for if we ever meant to get any sleep.
Marriage is as cyclical as every other part of life. If you have more babies, the cycle will be extended. If you don’t, given the praise you normally offer of your wife, you’ll be in a very different mood as little as two years from now.
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RPA is right it’s the other side of the coin of marital infidelity. If women can’t love men as they are, then go marry another woman it’s now an option.
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The other thing is, Cam, with 8 kids and no help throughout the day, all she really has to give is probably scraps of her time. Her life sounds overwhelming, to say the least.
We only had 5 kids, and we spaced them out so much that by the time #4 arrived, #’s 1, 2, and 3 (who happened to be girls besides) were old enough to do a lot around the house. With the first three, who were born extremely close together, there was a season when I was stretched terribly thin. We didn’t homeschool until #4 either. So yeah, I had a lot of energy and focus to channel towards my husband’s needs, but that was because of our particular situation.
Yours is vastly different, and it’s not because of any alpha/beta stuff. It’s because you have a different family dynamic.
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She gets groped and suckled on all day by toddler. Doesn’t help. Hard to go from mom to sexy in 2 minutes. Male PMS. Liz says Mike gets grouchy too.
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Didnt take two years -different mood now since things were remedied. Previous comment = male PMS. Thanks for the words of wisdom and perspective.
Frequency is more of an issue than quickies.
We were anti contraception as Prots. As in the discussion at the other site, I instinctively distrust Christian trends that mimic and slightly lag secular trends. But I dont want to argue, just state it ain’t just Catholicism.
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My husband would get grumpy, too. It happens.
No worries on the religion stuff. Whatever the reasons, you have a large family., the basic impact on romance is the same.
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Whenever it doesn’t happen for us because she is not feeling well in pain she goes out of her way to make sure I know its not because of me not being attractive.
This is a HUGE difference in the “no’s” I get from the ones discussed here a lot.
When you hear, “Oh my God! I would LOVE to… but [some reasonable thing]. As soon as I am feeling better we are sending the kids to moms and having an all nighter!”, then its WAY easier to hear “no.”
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And of course, the all nighter actually happens a few days later.
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