Aristocratic Hypergamy

Hypergamy is a bear market for the Elite.

Readership: All;
Author’s Note: This post was coauthored by Lexet and Jack.

Introduction

The Manosphere seldom covers any examination of relationships within the aristocratic class system, but we’re making up lost ground this week. NovaSeeker’s post, Sticking the landing is for the elite (2021 May 10), pointed out that only upper class (UC) women can make the Feminist Life Script work.

In this post, I want to describe an interesting phenomenon I see happening among professional, educated, upper class (UC) wimminz. Then I will explain that even among the upper class, selecting a mate is not so easy peasy for rosie hoesie.

First, a little Red Pill refresher.

This graph makes a few things clear to our understanding.

  • Women naturally desire a man who is MORE successful than they are.
  • VERY few of these men exist, and these men have MANY options.
  • Men are NOT attracted to success and degrees, but to youth and femininity instead.
  • A woman of high status is at somewhat of a disadvantage in the Socio-Sexual/Marriage Marketplace, maybe not in terms of the quality of man she can attract, but definitely in terms of competition.
  • This same effect applies as a class!

The bottom line is that women desire to marry up, and not just up, but 1- higher than she is, and 2- as high as she can get. Men marry down, leaving wealthy and upper middle class women fewer options for a long term partnership or marriage.

The Elite Mating Market of the Past

The overlapping worlds of the wealthy and the political powermongers offer a sophisticated venue for sexual selection — it always has. But the market dynamics were drastically different in the past.

Many marriages were arranged within the noble class. This was done through the following measures, which presumably preserved the accumulation and transfer of wealth within families.

  • The system ensured daughters of the elite would have husbands who had position, title, money, and/or land.
  • It was almost guaranteed that daughters of wealthy families would have husbands, whether they were young, beautiful, and desirable — or not.

While historians typically say the marriage system worked to “create alliances and peace,” history has shown us otherwise — that political marriages were the center of numerous conflicts in the killing fields of Europe. For example, national leaders being genetically related to numerous other leaders certainly didn’t prevent the First or Second World Wars.

In addition, many aristocracies were covertly controlled by women, and served the interests of women. Dalrock focused on the subject of chivalry. More overt female rule can be seen with Isabella of Castile, Catherine of Aragon, Margaret of Austria, Anne of France, Elizabeth I, Jeanne d’Albret, Catherine de Medici, Christina of Sweden, Queen Mary, Queen Victoria, Catherine the Great.

Or you can just look at this incredibly long list of female hereditary rulers on wikipedia. But those are just facts, and the government told me that women were kept in cages until 1965, when they were allowed to have sex in public at rock concerts.

Had this system not been in place, men would have been free to marry whomever, and the daughters of the elite would have been forced to marry a husband of lesser stature, which would have been a humiliation to them.

The end result of this is that it effectively restricted males from marrying down (i.e., it prevented males from marrying either the wives they wanted, or wives who deeply respected them out of hypergamic instinct). Forcing men to marry women they didn’t love, and historically speaking, not allowing for divorce, encouraged adultery. A famous example would be Prince Charles and Princess Diana.

Princess Diana and Prince Charles during a 1991 trip to Canada. (Credit: Tim Graham/Getty Images)

Other noteworthy people who fit this model include Bill Clinton, John Edwards, John Kerry, Kamala Harris, Ted Cruz, Amy Barrett. A notable exception to this phenomena would be someone like John Kerry.

Interestingly, arranged marriages within the UC promoted the same degeneracy (i.e. affairs) that was produced by the practice of chivalry within the lower classes — which was an ostentatious attempt to mimic the upper class. This goes to show how important it is for leaders to spearhead societal trends by promulgating an Archetype.

How has the Elite Mating Market Changed since the Sexual Revolution?

Politically arranged marriages don’t exist anymore, and with a deregulated sexual marketplace, the relationships formed in political circles and among the rich and famous seldom lead to marriage. Marriage between children of political figures definitely happens, but this has more to do with shared values and interlocutions within social circles than families making deals through marriage.

In The Lopsided Liberalized Mating Market (2021 February 17), Novaseeker discussed how women have a strong upper hand in the Sexual Marketplace. This is no less true for upper class women. However, when it comes to marriage, elite chicks have a unique dilemma. Compared to women of other classes, it is much easier for them to get into marriage, even in spite of their poor attractiveness and past sexual conduct. But it is much tougher for them to attract a man who can Tingulate her deeply and elicit the respect that is vital to a blissful marriage — and win commitment from him.

Prince Harry ,Jester of Simpcester, had to marry down — waaay dooown, to find a woman who could fleece him (and even that is questionable). He is one of the few living examples of recovery from a drug addiction resulting in a lower quality of life.

In fact, there are two qualifications which have come to be the two most important factors that modern elite women take into account when considering a man for marriage.

  1. He must be able to exercise sexual authority over her (i.e. the Tingles).
  2. He must be able to match her expected socio-economic standard of living.

The first qualification is true for women of all SECs (AWALT), and this is difficult enough, mainly because there are so few men who are able to qualify (less than 10%, as described in NovaSeeker’s post). This is even more true for UC women, as shown in the infographic above. But in addition to this, there is much more pressure NOT to marry down, because not only would this fail to satisfy hypergamy, it would also cause an intolerable reduction in her living standards, and it would be a source of social shame as well.

Most elite chicks end up marrying a man who is more or less at their MMV level, taking into account socio-economic factors. This is one area in which market value parity still exists.  But even this can be viewed (by her) as settling if he doesn’t possess both of the qualifications mentioned above.

Epilogue

The elite mating market is still controlled by women, as it was in the past. Yet, women (and marriages) continue to suffer from this arrangement.

Since UC women almost always marry upper tier men, it is ironic that they are frustrated in their attempts to achieve a Headship relational structure, for reasons discussed above.

UC women must frequently endure their husbands having affairs. Depending on their personality and the social risks involved, it was not uncommon for UC women to “look the other way” whenever this occurs, in order to make the marriage “work out”, which essentially means to preserve the wealth and status invested in the union. In the past, dignitaries accepted this situation with the attitude “that’s just how life is”, and did their best to contain the publicity. However, due to women’s liberation and divorce legislation that strongly favors women, this tactic has fallen by the wayside in popular practice.

Overall, the same degeneracy (i.e. affairs) that occurred in the past continues on, with gusto!

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78 Responses to Aristocratic Hypergamy

  1. cameron232 says:

    The paragraph after Harry/Meghan – can’t stress this enough – women want higher than merited value in the alpha/tingles AND beta/SES qualities.

    Gonna be white pill – I think it’s generally 80/20 for the tingles qualities not “less than 10%” that’s a phenomena for tender hos. Per Cane Caldo, women sort the men in their FoV /actually available to them into 80/20. The Tinder top 20% is less than 10% when mapped into the age relevant general male population.

    Liked by 2 people

  2. info says:

    This goes to show historically elite marriage pattern deserve to be abolished and Men must be able to marry women who are not only pretty but actually love and respect them.

    Thereby disincentivising adultery and cutting off the cause of cuckchivalry

    It seems the Patrilineal rule of Ancient Israel was more in keeping with Divine Law. As its far more compatible with the Headship of Husbands as symbolizing Christ.

    Compared to Medieval History where Men who marry royal/noble women don’t even inherit the Throne because of their lower initial status.

    I.e Queen Elizabeth II and her Husband.

    And historically of royal houses composed of solely Men and Males.

    Liked by 2 people

  3. cameron232 says:

    Affairs – I don’t know what qualifies for UC but a friend at work is a PhD scientist married to a woman doctor. He was banging a young Asian woman at work – I mean banging her AT work.

    Like

    • dpmonahan says:

      Asian work-wives can be deadly for us American shlubs. A big RP moment for me was having a female subordinate at work who became my side-kick and cheerleader and I got emotionally attached; classic work wife phenomena. I realized that if I had an egalitarian marriage and a career-oriented wife who wasn’t giving me that kind of support I’d feel defrauded, like I’d completely screwed up my life, and probably cheat.
      Before that I always assumed I’d marry a career woman because that is what my peers were doing, and I simped accordingly. Never again.
      Women want to marry the boss and men want to f*** the maid.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Lexet Blog says:

        You don’t even need to be their boss.

        Workplace fornicating occurs at a higher rate than most people would believe. It only gets outed and reported when the spouse finds out, or a jealous coworker reports it.

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        DPM, yep not just Asian “work wives.”

        My friend who slept with a woman at work married a female doctor. I understand why men do it even if I can’t condone it.

        Lexet – I could tell you stories sir – yes it happens more than most think.

        Liked by 1 person

      • thedeti says:

        “It only gets outed and reported when the spouse finds out, or a jealous coworker reports it.”

        Or more often when the man breaks off the “relationship” and the spurned woman decides ex post facto that he “harassed” her and “quid pro quo’d” her and coerced her into it.

        Liked by 7 people

      • Novaseeker says:

        I think everyone who has worked longer term in a mixed sex office environment has come across this.

        It’s because when you put men and women together in proximity for so many hours a day like that apart from their spouses/partners/etcetera you are going to have a percentage who are attracted to each other, and a percentage of that who decide to act on that. It’s neither complicated nor surprising. The culture wants it to be surprising because the cultural teaching is that it is normal for men and women to be spending most of their time (which is what work time is .. most of one’s waking hours) around people of the opposite sex other than their spouse without there being any sexual attraction, tension or activity of any kind, such that when it does happen, it’s easily portrayed as abberational, abusive, coercive, perverse and all sort of things when it is really just normal, unsurprising and uncomplicated. But somehow we think that when people show up at work, they revert to pre-pubescent humans with no sexuality or, alternatively, that all humans behave sexually when they are spending gobs of time around people they find sexually attractive, and so we’re shocked when neither of those turns out to be the case. Just shocked, I tell you.

        I’ve seen men and women both get dinged for sleeping with coworkers, I’ve seen men not get dinged, I’ve seen men leave their wives for a coworker, I’ve seen a woman leave her husband for a woman at work, I’ve seen women sleep with their law clients (and get dinged for that), and on and on. Wow, men and women who are attracted to each other will often get it on given proximity and opportunity, who knew? Film at 11.

        Liked by 8 people

  4. info says:

    What I find interesting is the way those mating pattern would turn out currently is limit the numbers of those elite because of more stringent requirements in many ways.

    Like

  5. Novaseeker says:

    In some ways this depends on what we are talking about, in terms of class.

    I know this stuff makes most of your eyes glaze over (“what relevance is this to my life?”), but if we’re going to discuss these things at all it makes sense to be clear what we are discussing.

    “Upper class” can mean any number of things.

    To me, I distinguish between the following groups (because they behave differently):

    Ownership class — people who do not need to work for a living, live on substantial passive income and inherited wealth, and the gains thereon.

    Professional/Managerial class — people who work for the Ownership class, either directly or indirectly by working for, or providing services to, entities owned by the Ownership class. Highly educated, upwardly mobile “strivers”, but not necessarily born into this class, in the past (see discussion below).

    Cognitive elite — a subset of the Professional/Managerial class who works in brain-dominated culturally influential positions like media, advertising, publishing, online hubs, entertainment, academia, etc.

    Middle class — mostly college-educated, but not as highly educated as the Professional/Managerial class, and not generally “strivers”. They work in many of the same places as the Professional/Managerial class, in supporting roles, and there is often resentment between these two groups.

    Everyone else — no need to explain.

    These groups mate differently

    The Ownership class actually has more freedom in mating, because there is a ton of money laying around, so much so that it is impossible to run out of it, so that less is leveraged at stake on the mating decision as a practical matter. Most of the people who are born into this class, however, do mate within it for the simple reason that there are very profound “relatability” issues to people who did not grow up in this class, and importing someone who did not grow up with that that kind of financial situation into it can be dicey (the person is not equipped to manage that). So this tends to be an insular group, and above all it’s mostly a hidden group.

    The Professional/Managerial class is the group that forms the core of the “meritocratic myth”. They see themselves as self-made, and therefore merited, elites, and they generally seek out as mates others with similar profiles. In part this is social pressure from others in the striver class, and in part it is the desire to perpetuate the same degree of elite status in their children in the context of an economy and culture that has become skewed to the benefit of the highly-educated meritocrats (i.e., this class). In the past, this class was both more closed (fewer college spaces, therefore smaller number of highly educated people, more elite in background) and more open (marriages were often between classes, with a woman from a lower stratum being picked as a wife by a man in this class). The latter more or less does not happen any longer in any substantial numbers, as the men in this class, today, tend to seek out women in this class (i.e., striver women) as their mates for the reasons noted above. This has had many effects, including a consolidation of class hierarchy and greater economic immobility and cultural alienation between these class groups. It also has led to the women in this specific group (striver women) having more of a “closed market” on these men than was ever the case in the past, where, again, many of these men in prior eras married “down”. Not so much today.

    The middle class is the group that is the largest part of the society in the US. It tends to marry within its own class as well. Previously there was some upward mobility for women in this class via marriage to men in the Professional/Managerial class, but that has closed down for the most part. The route up from this class to that one, today, is much harder. For a few decades there (between the collapse of the “marry into” strategy with the rise of second wave feminism, and around 2000-2005 or so) it was possible for some portion of this class to “educate itself upward” into the Professional/Managerial class without having to be born into it or marrying into it. That has now been mostly shut down as well, due to the prevalence of assortative intermarriage between the current members of the Professional/Managerial class, which tends to pre-populate the institutions and opportunities for this class in the next generation by means of their own kids. So today almost all of the middle marry within their own class and have much less social mobility options, via marriage or otherwise, than in even the recent past.

    The everyone else category is largely not marrying any longer at all.

    Liked by 2 people

    • anonymous_ng says:

      Here’s how I’ve always categorized folks.

      Upper class – those who are both rich, and wealthy regardless of whether they are new money or old. I don’t think anyone in the US would consider someone who is a descendant of old money, but who doesn’t have any share of that familial wealth to be in the upper class.

      Upper middle class – those of the professional class who have done well for themselves. The thing is, there are some of the professional class with the title, but without the money to go along with it. It doesn’t matter if you’re passed the bar, but you’re living in a small apartment in San Diego and whining about your student loans(a woman I know). But, this is also about tastes and interests. I doubt we’d consider someone who is worth millions because they own a construction company to be truly part of the UMC.

      Generally, I would consider UMC family money to be 3x-4x median wages.

      Middle class – here are your IT people, nurses, teachers, and the like. I would say that these families are making 1.5x-2x median family wage, own a single family home, etc.

      Working class – my niece’s husband does construction work, and she does some kind of living facility management. Between them, they’re probably making slightly more than median wages, but he’s her second husband, and fourth father of her children. That’s another thing that tends to separate the working class from the middle-class IME, poor life choices. Maybe it was drugs. Maybe it was a bunch of DUIs. Maybe it was someone going to prison. But, whatever the reason, folks with talent and a future time orientation etc, stay in the working class.

      Lower class – people with serious mental problems or drug problems, ones who work occasionally, are dependent upon government social support etc.

      SOME of the middle-class are aspirational, but I really see that amongst the UMC. That is where you find people who are just as smart as those in the UC, but missed out on the luck, or the contacts etc to make it, and they aren’t happy about it.

      At least this is how things seem to me.

      Like

  6. professorGBFMtm2021 says:

    Why am I still told these ”elites”are special,idealists or better when they have proven themselves fools&delusional beyond all others ever that were drunk with power&the blood of the innocent?These higher up classes with their goodness that only exists on paper!

    Liked by 5 people

    • Lexet Blog says:

      They are better than us. We will never understand cuz we r peasants

      Liked by 4 people

      • feeriker says:

        They can sustain that delusion/illusion only because they still have sufficient conventional wealth to enable them to enforce it on the rest of us. It will be VERY interesting to see what happens after the Great Economic Implosion occurs and they can no longer “buy” or threaten the rest of us.

        Liked by 3 people

    • Elspeth says:

      Because humans, even most Christians, are inclined to judge according to the flesh rather than according to the spirit. So we decide who our “betters” based on what they have more than who they are as determined by what they do.

      I don’t only mean what they do personally, but what they do with the influence they possess.

      Liked by 4 people

  7. Liz says:

    I’ve seen some pretty dysfunctional UC families.
    Author, Anastasia, the epiphany years:
    “Fifty Shades of Green”- My journey beyond billionaire Christian Grey. A saga about overcoming abusive behavior, Anastasia relays her brave story “as a warning to other women”.

    Liked by 1 person

  8. Liz says:

    She never knew what a brave survivor she was until they took that prophylactic marital counseling…

    Liked by 2 people

  9. lastmod says:

    I am middle class……..was raised middle class….but I identify with the working class, though I fully understand and accept that the “working class” probably doesn’t identify with me, and in many cases would take offense for me identifying myself as such.

    After losing everything and having to start over around 2004……I gained a deep humility and respect for people who work “those jobs” (service). I worked 7-11 as a clerk for two years during the noc shft (10pm thru 6am) six days a week. I hated it, but it did teach me what a sixteen-ton of people go through in this country, and California in particular who perhaps didn’t even have as many options as I did.

    Many of these folks were happy or at least accepted where they stood….plenty of really just “stupid” people here too. Not shedding crocodile tears or lionizing over their station and predictament in life. Nor, being an activist and “fighting” for economic equity of this lot.

    I will say, the USA needs them……the country would really shut down if these people didn’t exist. None of us are going to take this work as a living, and most wouldn’t take it even if it was the only thing availible. This is where I was indeed an exception. As the son of parents who were immigrants, there was no shame to take a paying job, no matter how beneath me I though it was.

    SO, my view of class and status here differs from this posting….this views class as a sexual-soci-ecomic one…….where I view it as perhaps as it was.

    Chivalray of course had to be thrown in….if only we were not cucked in 811 AD or whatever…none of this would be happening.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Liz says:

      After losing everything and having to start over around 2004……I gained a deep humility and respect for people who work “those jobs” (service).

      I’ve always felt that way about service jobs.
      I’ve worked quite a few. A good CNA is worth his/her weight in gold.

      Liked by 5 people

  10. redpillboomer says:

    “But in addition to this, there is much more pressure NOT to marry down, because not only would this fail to satisfy hypergamy, it would also cause an intolerable reduction in her living standards, and it would be a source of social shame as well.”

    As an interesting aside to the ‘social shame’ angle, this could also include not ethnically ‘marrying down.’ I know two white women who were dating Indian men for a season (STRs). The Indian guys had the looks, e.g. handsome and well-built; the money-high paying tech jobs and I believe money from their families back home on top of there American incomes; a certain degree of ‘Americanization’ and sophistication about them, e.g. kind of ‘GQ classy players,’ only Indian instead of white. The kicker, both I believe were interested in getting married to good looking UC white women with good jobs (to get double income effect for the even bigger lifestyle). The two UC white women ended up not marrying these men, in fact I think both women dumped them to go back to their search for the UC white male. I have always believed that these ladies rejected these two qualified, marriageable men simply because it would have been ‘marrying down’ ethnically for them, and no other reason.

    Like

    • Novaseeker says:

      Indian guys are in a tough spot, I think. Lots of cultural stuff there that plays negative for them in US culture (eg, Raj from Big Bang Theory type stereotypes), which makes them a less attractive pick in much of the country. It’s different for guys who are 2nd generation or later, born and raised in US, much less culturally South Asian, and also certain parts of the country are easier for these guys (eg, California) than others.

      We have a LOT of South Asian folks here in the DC region and there is very, very little interracial relating going on with them and white women, but these are almost all guys who came here from South Asia with a South Asian wife, and who socialize more or less exclusively with other similar folks. These are young, energetic, highly-educated, highly-skilled guys, but they aren’t after white girls because they are married when they arrive here. So we don’t have as much of the interracial relationships here concerning South Asians … there is some, but it’s trivial compared to the number of South Asians who are here.

      There is a good amount of BM/WW relationships, including marriages, here, where the BMs involved are all highly educated Professional/Managerial types. I don’t think the women in question appear to have think they married down (the ones I am thinking of which I have come across personally all involved very attractive WWs who would have had a lot of options).

      I think this kind of thing varies a lot depending on the local market and who is in it. In other words, what kinds of non-white folks are there, what are their backgrounds (culturally, educationally, professionally), and for immigrants whether they are immigrant generation, kids of immigrants, grandkids of immigrants, etc., and what the culture of relationships is, in general terms, in that local market. Lots and lots of variables really for how interracial dating plays out and most of them are very different depending on local market characteristics, so it’s much harder to make generally applicable statements about this aspect of the dating market, I think.

      Like

      • lastmod says:

        Spent my entire post college career working in California. I still don’t understand how people have time to “flirt” and “build attraction” and have “sexual tension” at work, and nurture this. I have always come to work, to indeed work. I know flirting does happen…and I have heard about a co-worker introducing his son / daughter / nephew / niece to another coworker’s son / daughter / nephew / niece.

        Yes, have seen and heard about co-workers meeting up for drinks after work. Did something happen? Who knows? I sure didn’t. Lots of crass talk on the golf course when I was at IBM with Rush Limbaugh types of men (check-pants republican types, overweight and paunchy…talking about how her admin is checking him out……as if. “Dear Penthouse Forum…..”)

        At work I always worked, even when I snorted up a line in the men’s bathroom….back to the computer buzzing nicely and MORE work actually got done.

        Never heard about a marriage in the office…….and when that show “The Office” (American and British one) was on the air, everyone would tell me “oh, that is just like here!”

        Really? No way. Delusional self-important Californians…or maybe I just didn’t notice….or even care.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Lexet Blog says:

        Do you have autism?

        Like

  11. lastmod says:

    “Workplace fornicating occurs at a higher rate than most people would believe. It only gets outed and reported when the spouse finds out, or a jealous coworker reports it.”

    As always…depends on “who” is doing the fornicating? The guy from the Belvita commercial (the best looking guy at the job), he can get away with it. The (second best looking guy at work). No chance in hell he would be fornicating at work…and the off chance he did pull that off…..in an HR office with termination paperwork in front of him, a last check and probably a lawsuit as well.

    The good looking guy “just can’t help it” and the other guy has to follow “rules”

    Liked by 3 people

    • cameron232 says:

      My friend did it and he and the girl got caught and fired. He is a normal looking guy like me – not a goober and not an alpha stud.

      I suspect anyone caught in the sex act would be fired but whether or not you’re fired for harrassment depends on how important you are to the company. Whether or not you are
      reported by women depends on how attractive you are.

      I have another friend who is unattractive- think socially awkward disheveled college professor type. Strike one for him was when he told a woman he works with that she is mean. Strike 2 – the firing offense – he told a woman she should use her charms to get help from computer IT. Exact words. She didn’t report him – another person did and reported him. If you are unattractive and non-essential you have to be s good boy. He had to go home and tell his wife he got fired.

      Like

      • Lexet Blog says:

        On harassment it’s not looks but power.

        People rarely report toxic people. They mostly report the people who were toxic once or twice in response to a toxic person.

        Battered wife syndrome.

        Liked by 2 people

      • redpillboomer says:

        I would think this day and age, all men, including Mr. Alpha hunky boss, would be careful at work, MeToo and all the derivations it’s spawned throughout the workplaces in America. I get it, human nature and all that, maybe with some human stupidity thrown into the mix as well; however it occurs to me (and I’ve been out of the workforce retired now for six years), like who in the hell would take THAT risk these days? Sounds like the quickest way to pink slip hell for Joe average worker bee or mid-level manager Beta male. And even, Mr. Office Hunky Dude, once the office Stacy (ies) decides she wants his head delivered to her on an HR spike, he could go down in flames too, big muscles and all.

        On a side note, I know I mention my forays to the gym a lot, lol- one of my RP sociology classrooms); however even there, I’ve not seen anyone, Chad and Tyrone included, chatting up the ladies. They walk around that place focused on their workouts like a bunch of aloof, stoic workout warriors. Not saying everyone isn’t checking one another out, of course they are; however that can be done clandestinely enough. I don’t see any ‘PUA like’ moves being made. The only one who does it is Staff Chad, and he gets away with it because, well, he’s on staff and it’s part of his ‘job.’

        I guess what I’m getting at is this: being an older dude now, and being able to think back to what it was like in the workplace and the gym in the PREVIOUS century (lol- amazing to be able to say that now). It seems very different nowadays in some of the public settings where you used to be able to interact with the opposite sex quite freely, heck even hit on them from time to time if you wanted, and not ‘fear for your life’ so to speak.

        Liked by 4 people

      • Novaseeker says:

        Apps impact that. As apps have taken over dating, approaching in person has become “creepy” unless the guy has a contextual invitation to interact, like Staff Chad does.

        Liked by 5 people

      • professorGBFMtm2021 says:

        Lex,remember my main married female physical therapist whose co-male therapist was talking about wanting to know about her bedside manner to the other male PT’s?He had one thing in common with me&her husband,he had a beard!He did’nt understand I never speak of or even hint about sex to any woman I interact with at any work places or anywhere else in fact!
        He was obviously thirsty&thirsty men usualy equal not knowing how these interactions work especialy when your a co-worker of a woman. In other words he saw my good looks&full curly hair&the attention she was giving me&assumed I must be sweet talking her!
        Which I never do!But he must have saw it on some hollywood show or film&went with that understanding of how this stuff works!A man who can easily get a womans undivided attention needs no sweet talking or other such courtly non-sense marketed by the uber-rich!

        Liked by 2 people

      • thedeti says:

        Cam

        Workplace fornication penalties and consequences depend a great deal on what policies were violated, the severity of the violations, and whether any harm was done.

        If you violated a policy and you knew that termination could result from violating that policy, then yeah, you could be terminated. If it was a really bad policy violation, like having sex on the boardroom table at 11 pm when you’re not supposed to be in the office and the cleaning staff saw you in flagrante delicto, yeah, you’ll probably get let go.

        Or, if it was a bad policy violation, like you’ve banged 3 other men in the office and you’ve been repeatedly told to stop that, yeah, you’ll probably get fired. The man you were banging will probably get let go too.

        If some harm was done, especially hurting the bottom line, you’ll probably get let go. A client got wind of it. Or a client saw it and has a morals policy with your firm. Or your little tete-a-tetes are affecting your work. All very problematic.

        But all bets are off if you’re a “key man” or “key woman”. All bets are off if you’re extremely profitable.

        Liked by 5 people

      • thedeti says:

        There are several reasons why sexual harassment policies in workplaces have become so onerous with men (especially men) getting fired for a “first offense”.

        First, companies often have no choice but to fire at first offense for sexually harassing someone at the office especially if it’s pretty egregious. In law, once something happens at a workplace, the owners and supervisory personnel are deemed to have notice that that thing happened. If it happens again, well, you’re liable, because it happened before, you knew it happened before, and you kept that person in your employ anyway. That’s a really compelling jury argument. Clear liability case.

        Second: you keep that person on, or even if you don’t, your insurance coverages for that kind of offense either become unavailable or cost prohibitive. If you have no coverage, that hits the company’s bottom line. It’s money that companies just do not want to have to pay out of pocket.

        Third: The damages for a sexual harassment case are out of this world awful. Companies that lose sex harassment cases pay dearly. Compensatory damages. Back pay. Medical bills. Punitive damages. Attorney fees. Defending a sex harassment case successfully costs tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars and can be pretty difficult. Juries don’t like to give the benefit of the doubt to employers with deep pockets. And, well, do you really want a bunch of outsiders on a jury to hear that sordid story? In public?

        Fourth: Companies involved in sex harassment cases can get engulfed in negative publicity. They can lose goodwill, clients, and key employees.

        Sex harassment is something that companies just cannot countenance at all, they have to adopt zero tolerance policies and enforce them aggressively. Failure to do that can sink a small business and can hurt a bigger company’s bottom line.

        This is why men are increasingly told that female coworkers are off limits, period, end of discussion. You do it and you get caught, or it goes sour in the least little way, the very least that will happen is that you will get fired – and if you’re lucky, that’s all that will happen to you. You get fired for sexually harassing a coworker, you’ve just become radioactive and unemployable. No one will hire you. This happened to Bob Stokes, a former meteorologist at The Weather Channel. Granted, what he did was pretty egregious. And it was career ending. Stokes has not worked as an on air meterologist since TWC fired him in 2008, which was 13 years ago. He probably will never again work as on air talent. So the financial, social, and professional consequences are just too risky to justify workplace fornication or sex harassment.

        Liked by 5 people

      • cameron232 says:

        Deti our ethics training indicated it is not ok to require your office door to be left open if you’re speaking with a female employee in your office. Our ethics video showed such a scenario – no bueno.

        Liked by 2 people

      • thedeti says:

        “…our ethics training indicated it is not ok to require your office door to be left open if you’re speaking with a female employee in your office. Our ethics video showed such a scenario – no bueno.”

        I find it fascinating that taking steps to avoid sexual harassment accusations is a “hostile work environment” and is therefore sexual harassment.

        I find it fascinating that men expressing openly that they don’t want to be accused of sexual harassment is sexual harassment.

        So, now, men protecting themselves and their employers against sexual harassment accusations is itself sexual harassment.

        Isn’t it interesting that helping your company avoid sexual harassment accusations is “hostile” and “paternalistic” and “condescending” and therefore is sexual harassment?

        Liked by 8 people

      • thedeti says:

        Anticipating and guarding against sexual harassment irresponsibly presumes that some woman is going to accuse you of sexual harassment. That creates a “hostile work environment” and is sexual harassment. That’s sexist and prejudiced.

        Having men report harassment to men and women report harassment to women is sexist and creates sex distinctions without a reasonable basis. That’s a hostile work environment and is therefore sexual harassment.

        Sheesh.

        Liked by 5 people

      • Novaseeker says:

        “Deti our ethics training indicated it is not ok to require your office door to be left open if you’re speaking with a female employee in your office. Our ethics video showed such a scenario – no bueno.”

        Yep.

        The workaround for that scenario (which really should only come up for performance reviews and that kind of “private” meeting) is to conduct those kinds of things away from the office area. So, in other words, have the review at a spare table in the corner of the corporate cafeteria, or out on one of the tables on the patio or what have you, so it’s private in that no-one can overhear you, but it’s out in the open. And HR eats that up, too (“more relaxed environment, less hierarchical and more egalitarian, more subordinate friendly, etc.”) so it’s a win-win.

        The only other context in which I can recall the need to be in the office behind a closed door with a female colleague were situations in which it was always possible to have someone else invited to the “meeting” (even an admin to “take notes and be there for any follow ups”). Really, there isn’t much that needs to be one-on-one private that isn’t a performance review.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Lexet Blog says:

        Glass doors

        Liked by 4 people

  12. lastmod says:

    Where i work now is quasi-professional in office culture. I have to wear a shirt and tie to work. Property Management. I am moving to Brentwood (LA) in about a month. I just was promoted into “upper management” and their office are located there, which means back to the IBM days… suit on Monday, shirt and tie Tue-Thur, and casual Friday (no jeans, no sneakers, polo shirt type of thing).

    Aside from moving to LA (which I really don’t want to do), the women I have always worked with in general have been professional at work. Never witnessed any “hanky-panky” here or at IBM… nor have heard about it. In matters like this….. in the end…. men can’t keep a secret. If he is “gettin’ some” he will brag to his co-workers. If she is… she will drop the bomb when / if she decides she was harassed or coerced…. it always comes out.

    None of my female co-workers have driven me “mad with desire” including my admin. Also, married women are off limits for flirting, chatting up or even being friendly aside from work related stuff. If a female co-worker talks about her boyfriend (something “cute” he did for example). I smile, nod and get back to work. Any woman who has a boyfriend is off limits. I know, I know a woman actually wants you to hit on her and game / frame her up if she mentions to you that she has a boyfriend (again, that depends who YOU are).

    I think some of this talk about “office hook-ups” is just plain ol locker-room bullsh*tting. Sure, every guy of course has had action with a “nine or ten” at work, in the supply closet while her boyfriend / husband in a different department down the hall. yes, yes…nurses at the hospital are getting a biology lesson from the hot intern from the local medical college a la “Scrubs” happens all the time.

    What usually happens. Both are on a rebound, a bad marriage and it just happens. I suppose it could “happen” to anybody…….

    Liked by 2 people

    • thedeti says:

      “…married women are off limits for flirting, chatting up or even being friendly aside from work related stuff. ….I think some of this talk about “office hook-ups” is just plain ol locker-room bullsh!tting.”

      Usually, yes. You’d be surprised at the number of married women who flirt openly and who make clear they might be available for some…. extracurriculars, IYKWIM. But it is not usually the 9 or 10 va va voom 30-something divorcee. It is usually the pudgy dumpy 40-something secretary married for 15 years and bored to tears with her hubby. Or the 45 year old prim and proper HR manager who drops hints about her dead bedroom and likes showing you photos of her kids on her iPhone and brags about how her oldest is heading to UCLA. Or the early 50s newly-in-shape woman whose last kid just headed off to college, is clearly on the prowl, looking for some marital exit action, and wants to take her new sleek body for a test drive.

      Seen it happen.

      Liked by 4 people

    • feeriker says:

      Congrats on your promotion!

      Yeah, the idea of moving to LA sucks, but hopefully you can find a decent suburb to call home.

      Liked by 3 people

  13. redpillboomer says:

    “I think some of this talk about “office hook-ups” is just plain ol locker-room bullsh*tting. Sure, every guy of course has had action with a “nine or ten” at work, in the supply closet while her boyfriend / husband in a different department down the hall. yes, yes…nurses at the hospital are getting a biology lesson from the hot intern from the local medical college a la “Scrubs” happens all the time.”

    Good point! In all my years in the service, it happened, but WAY less than people imagined. Mostly it was during TDYs (tour of duty) that most things that happened… well… happened. But day in and day out, nada, nothing much that I was aware of; and this was before the MeToo movement. Of course the rumor mill did run, especially when certain females got elevated/promoted to some of the higher ranking positions and the talk of the ‘promotion couch’ was out there on the grapevine. It was out there because ‘somehow’ she got the job over other more qualified candidates, including female candidates. In other words, there was really no way she should have gotten the job, but she sure enough did; and there was usually a male Officer or SrNCO, e.g. a General or Colonel or Chief Master Sergeant closely associated in some way with the promoted female. I’m sure it happened on the male side too, but back then, it was predominately the females ‘sleeping their way’ to the top. With the proliferation of females into high ranking positions across the military nowadays, maybe there are some males now ‘sleeping there way to the top’ as the old saying goes. Who knows?

    Like

  14. lastmod says:

    I am sure that happens…….I have just never witnessed it. At IBM, the women in my dept (not HR) were indeed “fitting” that Libby Dole type of woman in the early 1960’s (that woman at Harvard). A bit exceptional and in a full STEM dept, and not there to meet a husband……and really not there to bring “attention” to herself. Maybe some of the younger companies in the Silicon Valley (Yahoo, Ebay, Sun Micro, Oracle) maybe that did happen more. IBM was very conservative back then…even with the relaxed dress code post 1999.

    Even in my area…UCD we dealt with engineers, had know the product and what they were talking about at meetings to “write” the manuals. Using a camera (generating artwork), and it was dry, very dry work. Something even “getting girls psyched about science / technology” back then would not attract them to my work.

    I never put the moves on my admin. She was my mothers age, and remembered IBM “when they actually were more serious” and she missed those days of the 1960’s 1970’s. Stable marriage. A daughter my age (though she never introduced me to her…for obvious reasons)

    Liked by 2 people

    • cameron232 says:

      I have never seen an attractive admin at my company. They generally use older women. There was one aging Barbie doll type that had an aging bodybuilder husband. I don’t know if they hire older women to cut down on the boss screwing his admin thing. Our corporate president resigned several years ago because he was screwing his subordinate. No matter – he just became the president of L3 after he left our company

      I work in defense. Multiple people have been caught screwing in closed/classified labs because they assume they won’t get caught. My friend did it a bunch of times before he got caught and fired. You’re behind locked doors that only a few people can get into. Two different women -one married – have said to me “you know we’re alone in here” I didn’t react at all.

      Like

      • Maniac says:

        “Two different women -one married – have said to me ‘you know we’re alone in here’ I didn’t react at all.”

        Therein lies another problem: unreciprocated attraction. It can lead to your typical Western woman accusing you of being gay. Happened to me once.

        Workplace gynocentrism sucks.

        Liked by 2 people

      • cameron232 says:

        In my case it didn’t matter since I’m happily married. I guess accusations of being gay wouldn’t hurt your work since gay is now “good” but I can see how it could hurt your romantic prospects with women you are interested in.

        Liked by 3 people

      • Lexet Blog says:

        I have a friend in a very liberal state who was saved because the complainant remarked that he was gay. Her accusations backfired and she wound up getting in trouble for her comment

        Liked by 2 people

      • cameron232 says:

        The late traditionalist thinker Lawrence Auster used to note that modern women by dressing or speaking inappropriately force a man to one of two choices. One is to leer/react which is deemed inappropriate. The other is having to look away or squash your natural reaction which is emasculating.

        Liked by 5 people

  15. professorGBFMtm2021 says:

    Of course, most of this hooking up at work is locker room talk &porn fantasies!That male physical therapist I refer to was very lucky not to get fired, since the female PT had alot of power in the office at physical therapy!This was right after metoo&all that harvey weinstein harassment scandals began too!I also never see these mythical 9s&10’s that guys like jabba assure me are out here either!

    Liked by 2 people

    • cameron232 says:

      I have personally witnessed one mid 40s woman at work sit on one guys lap and wiggle her a$$ (he was being provocative) and same woman rub the leg of another man (he wasn’t and is a decent Christian man). I know a black man who was propositioned in the elevator – he corrected the woman with no consequence. I know two different IT guys have a woman rub their shoulders uninvited. These weren’t sex but you know it’s happening. It’s not one big orgy but it happens.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Novaseeker says:

        Yep. It’s not like people are going to strip naked and screw right in front of your office, so if that’s what you’re looking for, you won’t see that. But if you keep your eyes and your ears open, it’s pretty obvious what is going on.

        Having said that, context does matter.

        Environments with a more balanced sex ratio will have more of it, and environments with more attractive people will have more of it. So of course places that have high concentrations of super-attractive people (Hollywood, media, athletics, etc) have all had a good deal of publicity about all of the shenanigans, because those are contexts in which there will be more of it, on average, for those reasons.

        And on the other side, I would not be surprised if certain contexts (like the geekier/techier ones) have a lot less of it because of the lower percentage of women and the lower percentage of attractive men, but it’s still happening even there, just probably less of it.

        Most of my career has been in bog-standard corporate environments where there was a very average to slightly below average attractiveness profile, and not very many people in their 20s, and there was plenty of this type of thing happening, as I describe above. Again, not in the open in the hallways. You have to know what to look for and you have to know who to talk to to know what is going on, but it’s going on.

        Liked by 4 people

      • thedeti says:

        “…and there was plenty of this type of thing happening…”

        –there’s always one office romance going on… but if you aren’t paying attention you won’t see it. People can be really good at keeping these things under wraps. Many times it’s not even really a “romance”… the nature of the relationship is almost exclusively sexual, entered into because one or both are in dead bedroom marriages.

        –it often involves a married woman employee who has every incentive to keep it quiet. Even if it goes really bad, she’s not squawking about it because she doesn’t want her husband finding out.

        –management usually knows, or has a pretty good idea that it’s going on, but doesn’t say anything. Or, HR very discreetly calls them in, together, and says effectively, “Look. We know what’s going on. Do it discreetly. It better not cause any problems. If it does we will come down on both of you like a ton of bricks. One or both of you will be transferred or let go. Conduct any part of the relationship here? Gone. Client or employee complaints? Gone. Work suffers because you’re distracted or neglecting it? Gone. Got it? Good.”

        Liked by 1 person

    • cameron232 says:

      Elspeth’s husband had some slut mash her boobs into his back.

      Liked by 1 person

  16. lastmod says:

    More of a ruckus raised at my job now of “Whose turn is it to make coffee? / ughhh….. Somebody do a Starbucks run!”
    The big drama was about two weeks ago when someone used the employee bathroom…… and man oh man…… it was big! Whoever dropped that one was in their office crying.

    Liked by 3 people

    • Joe2 says:

      Whose turn is it to make coffee? / ughhh….. Somebody do a Starbucks run!”

      Why the rukus? Everyone should know that making the coffee and cleaning up afterwards women’s work.

      Liked by 2 people

      • feeriker says:

        Smart facilities management installs Keurigs or similar coffee makers that let people who want coffee make themselves one cup at a time, no muss no fuss, and nothing for anyone else to clean up. At my first post-Navy contracting job there was a 30-cup coffee maker that was a constant source of contention because people wouldn’t make coffee after they took the last cup. The pot was eventually removed by the FM, who got sick of hearing all the bitching about it. At the next company they got smart back in 04/05 and installed a Keurig with the individual K-cups in multiple flavors. Solved the issue overnight. Of course it probably also made some people unhappy who no longer had anything to create drama over …

        Liked by 1 person

  17. redpillboomer says:

    “I think some of this talk about “office hook-ups” is just plain ol locker-room bullsh*tting. Sure, every guy of course has had action with a “nine or ten” at work, in the supply closet while her boyfriend / husband in a different department down the hall. yes, yes…nurses at the hospital are getting a biology lesson from the hot intern from the local medical college a la “Scrubs” happens all the time.”

    Good point! In all my years in the service, it happened, but WAY less than people imagined. Mostly it was during TDYs (tour of duty) that most things that happened…well…happened. But day in and day out, nada, nothing much that I was aware of; and this was before the MeToo movement. Of course the rumor mill did run, especially when certain females got elevated/promoted to some of the higher ranking positions and the talk of the ‘promotion couch’ was out there on the grapevine. It was out there because ‘somehow’ she got the job over other more qualified candidates, including female candidates. In other words, there was really no way she should have gotten the job, but she sure enough did; and there was usually a male Officer or SrNCO, e.g. a General or Colonel or Chief Master Sergeant closely associated in some way with the promoted female. I’m sure it happened on the male side too, but back then, it was predominately the females ‘sleeping their way’ to the top. With the proliferation of females into high ranking positions across the military nowadays, maybe there are some males now ‘sleeping there way to the top’ as the old saying goes. Who knows?

    Like

    • redpillboomer says:

      Although I will add that I had no doubt it was going on behind the scenes, e.g. away from work, just not at work. The at work thing, even the proverbial ‘sex in the closet area or on the office desk’ seemed more like a porn fantasy than anything in reality at work.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Liz says:

      I’ve seen quite a lot of shenanigans over the years.
      A couple of squadrons, we were the only couple that was not divorced and infidelity was usually the reason. Mostly the wives, actually (when the husbands were TDY).

      Most recently, well the last place a squadron in an attached wing some of the instructors video taped the female students giving them fellatio (with their approval. “Let’s tape this! tee hee”). And the spouse of one Lt. Colonel (a Major herself) was the executive officer to a Colonel she had an inappropriate relationship with and left their three kids for.

      Hard to believe this stuff happens in this environment (super risky), but it does apparently.

      Liked by 4 people

      • redpillboomer says:

        Amazing this stuff still happens in THIS environment! I was in a USAF training environment back in the day when they cracked down on any instructors or staff messing with the students. The students of course made up for it with all their shenanigans with each other, but it was career death for any full-time personnel to mess with the students, and supposedly each other. The spouse gone TDY, with the spouse at home cheating, that was way beyond anecdotal and became basically an urban legend ( a true one).

        Liked by 2 people

      • Liz says:

        When Mike first started out (1993) the environment was different. And years before that (when my father served, also a fighter pilot) is was different still. My dad (who was a very honest man of 100 percent fidelity) came home and got genital warts from his first wife.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Ame says:

        Oh, that’s heartbreaking, Liz 😥

        Like

      • Liz says:

        I don’t bring this stuff up often, but this career path has a very high divorce rate, because the lifestyle isn’t easy (for the most part, there are exceptions of people who don’t move around or deploy and whatnot). I wouldn’t change a thing in retrospect, it was a great life but no one should go into it blindly.

        Liked by 3 people

      • cameron232 says:

        If a man leaves his wife even for military duty it may be that she experiences the same psychological response as an abandoned woman. My grandfather literally cuckholded another man who was away fighting WW2.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Liz says:

        “If a man leaves his wife even for military duty it may be that she experiences the same psychological response as an abandoned woman.”

        It’s part of military life, but I think some people do not understand what that means (at first). Hard to understand until you are living it. Requires extreme levels of flexibility, maturity, trust, realistic expectations, and Faith.

        Liked by 3 people

      • Lexet Blog says:

        Jody Calls existed for a reason. Of course, modern day kids have probably never heard of them, though they sure know of Jody.

        Liked by 2 people

  18. locustsplease says:

    My ex wife was written up for inappropriate sexual advances at work before we met. I know im a simp! Omg i cant say i didnt get red flags. That blue pill is strong. God decided to punish me in my life time and not for eternity so ima grateful child support slave:)

    Liked by 4 people

  19. lastmod says:

    IBM just palinly said, “You conduct yourself on a sense of urgency here, you are at work to work!” (which always made me upset…. why did most people have to be told this?)

    I my current company, everyone seems to be well behaved. Politics at work are a “no-no” and everyone does seem to get along……. Most of us were grateful we were working through the whole pandemic. I currently supervise a team of fifteen employees. Had minor run-ins with a co-worker over the past two years…. but he got over it, and so did I.

    All “private” meetings with the opposite sex (employee review for example) are to be done within eye-shot of others or someone. Door to office opened, that kind of thing. I held myself to that “Pence Rule” long before he made it mainstream. Ugly men will be accused of harassment (even if not true, and removed 9 times out of 10 over Chad) much more than the “handsome man” and I am ugly, so whenever I did have to meet with a woman one on one (IBM, with my admin) it was always done with the office door open, in an empty conference area, or lounge area where people could see us.

    In The Salvation Army during Holiness Meetings (Sunday service), men and women who were soldiers (members) could not sit next to each other unless they were married. Which did make people pay more attention than they normally would I suppose. Even when I was at a boys school as a teenager, the discussion, lectures was of better quality because there were no girls to distract us.

    Liked by 3 people

  20. feeriker says:

    “Or more often when the man breaks off the “relationship” and the spurned woman decides ex post facto that he “harassed” her and “quid pro quo’d” her and coerced her into it.”

    This is why you never “sh!t where you eat.” Of course so many men nowadays have no social life outside of work, and if their wives at home are not being “full-service” wives, there really isn’t anywhere else for them to turn to BUT the workplace, foolishly and recklessly risky as such a move is.

    Not condoning this, by the way, just opining on how things are in the real world of the AFWC.

    Like

  21. feeriker says:

    @ Novaseeker says:
    2021-05-15 at 3:58 am

    No one will tell me with a straight face and without making a moron of themselves that all of the sexual harassment/fraternization/sexual misconduct policies that permeate the modern western workplace are not as draconian as they are (ESPECIALLY when they’re aimed at men) because TPTB know damned well that putting men and women, especially MARRIED men and women, into a mixed-sex office environment is a recipe for disaster. However, since the narrative has to be sustained Uber Alles, it will be enforced, no matter how futile and how destructive the results of the enforcement attempts.

    Liked by 3 people

  22. feeriker says:

    “People rarely report toxic people.”

    It wouldn’t do any good if they did, because in most workplaces the “toxic” people are either the managerial/executive class (and thus pretty much untouchable unless they do something to piss off the majority shareholders of the company), or workerbees whose faces are embedded in the arses of the managerial class, making them effectively untouchable, no matter how toxic and destructive they are to the work environment. So yeah, “following the rules” is only for the unconnected, politically powerless plebes who aren’t part of the elite.

    Liked by 1 person

  23. feeriker says:

    thedeti says:
    2021-05-15 at 6:46 am

    Deti, PLEASE don’t tell us that you find these things “amazing,” given that we obviously live in a Bizarro Clown world that is in a state of implosion. You should be amazed only if companies did NOT act in such a ludicrously schizophrenic manner.

    Like

  24. Random Angeleno says:

    I was in management in the ’90’s. Escaped from the cubicles into a real office with a door. On my own, I had all one-on-one meetings somewhere out in the open. I didn’t discriminate between men and women so no one knew the real reason I did that. How I got there is a long story I won’t repeat, but awareness was already a thing back then.

    First harassment case I recall was in the late ’80’s with a secretary who was pushing 40, single, overweight, and homely, accusing a younger good looking second level manager. I saw the report I wasn’t supposed to see, and the description of the touching was fairly graphic. No question he would have been fired in the last 20 years. Back then he was a rising star. Dunno what happened to the complaint, but for sure it stopped his promotions for some time. Back then, I thought it was bull, but I have since come to realize there exist men who will hit on anyone. Like Arnold Schwarzenegger and that maid he had a son with. So I don’t know. Either she was making it up as some women have, or he really did hit on her.

    Then there was the time I shared a 4 person cubicle with 2 men, both married, and a long divorced woman. I was close friends with all three, so when one man and the woman started an affair, and the other man turned out to be very religiously judgmental over it, I was caught in the middle.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Lexet Blog says:

      I know of 2 decently attractive men who would literally screw a goblin with no limbs if they could. Both suffered professionally for those they screwed. Both got away with it until other things were uncovered and only then something happened.

      Liked by 3 people

    • dpmonahan says:

      Me 15 years ago: Why was Arnold sleeping with the homely maid when he was married to Maria Shriver?
      Me today: Of course he was sleeping with the maid, he was married to Maria Shriver.

      Liked by 3 people

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