ADIEU HUSsies Sell a Broken Script

You can stick the landing too, by just becoming a HUSsy!

Readership: All
Author’s Note: This post is an expose on a topic Deti and I discussed under Deti’s previous post, The Feminist Life Script (2020 December 17).
Reader’s Note: HUSsie is a partial acronym for Hooking Up Smart, an old website which gave out popular advice to a certain class of women discussed in this post.

Introduction

The life script of the emergent middle and upper-middle class HUSsie is understood as:

  • College until ~22
  • Work/grad school/travel until late 20s
  • Marriage between late 20s and mid-30s

And we all know the HUSsies are not exactly restrained in their sex lives.

These are not the women who are indifferent about family and children — those are a different set of ultra-careerists and are generally easy to spot because they continue the same lifestyle of their mid-20s well into their 40s. The HUSsies are the women who want to marry and have children, but only after they have done enough of the work/grad-school/travel in their 20s such that they are “ready to settle down” and focus on family life.

The refrain that is ubiquitously heard from them is…

“Look, everyone, all you need to do is just do it the way we do it. Just be more like us!”

“Go to college, get a job, start working, and you too can make it just like we did.”

“It doesn’t matter that you’re not white, or you came from a single mom household and haven’t seen your father in 15 years, or that you lack future time orientation, or you’re not all that smart, or you’re not as physically attractive. Doesn’t matter!”

“Go to college, get a job, and start working and earning money, start looksmaxxing, and you’ll be just like us!”

Moreover, the HUSsy life script is presented as simple, easy, and proper. The problem with this script is that the elites are selling to everyone a lifestyle and manner of living that works only for the elites. “Elites” being upper middle class, strong family background, college educated, employed earning good money, and usually white.

Who are the HUSsies?

HUSsies fit the following description in general.

  • They are almost all white women.
  • They are women whose parents are physicians or lawyers or college professors or bankers or C-suite corporate officers who are still married to each other, and where both of them usually work outside the home.
  • They attended NYU or Georgetown or Duke or Penn or UNC or UVA.
  • They work in prestigious high status jobs that are predominantly male occupied: banking, finance, “consulting”, advertising, PR, or some other cushy office job they got through dad’s connections (less often law or medicine because these professions require education beyond a bachelor’s degree).
  • They usually don’t work in traditional female jobs: teaching, social services, nursing, or clerical.
  • They have at least one long term relationship under their belts, and they broke up because of moving or his job or her job or “just didn’t work out”.
  • They’re well put together: makeup and hair on point, always well dressed and accessorized, height weight proportional, keep in shape, and limiting or avoiding recreational drug use for at least the last couple of years.

Generally speaking these are women who are college-educated, work in the service or “knowledge” industries in jobs that are generally located in one of the metros, and who are upwardly-mobile, career-oriented women.

The uber-elites prefer to have a workforce of college graduates who are educated to think like them.

Where are the HUSsies?

HUSsies are present everywhere today, but they are particularly concentrated in larger cities. DC, SF Bay, and Seattle are probably where it has the greatest percentage of the total population, but it extends throughout the coastal megalopoli, and the larger interior cities like Atlanta, DFW/Houston/Austin, the Twin Cities, Chicago, Miami, and Seattle.

While the HUSsie phenomena is utterly dominant in those cities mentioned, generally, it is not very widespread outside of these cities. However, this is slowly changing. Pockets of it have spread to places like Charlotte, Boise, Columbus, and others. Deti reported that there are HUSsies in the Midwest who can sometimes stick the landing even though they live outside the metro area context:

“I see this also in the Midwest, to a slightly lesser degree. These can also stick the landing. Mom and Dad are still married to each other but parents worked in slightly less prestigious occupations: Local elected official, lawyer, GP physician, school district administrator, successful small business owner. They’re overwhelmingly white. Their degrees are from Big Ten or Mid-South universities, or Northwestern or Vanderbilt or the University of Chicago or Miami/Ohio. Many went to small super expensive liberal arts colleges like Ripon, Oberlin, Grinnell, or Luther. (There are dozens of these little prestigious colleges around the Midwest with enrollments of 2500 or less, they are very well known nationwide, admissions are quite selective, the courses of study are rigorous, and their graduates succeed in work and life.) They work in jobs for which you need a bachelor’s degree – social work, social services, insurance, PR. Or they’re headed to law or med school. They’re also well put together, dressed well, absolutely none below HB 7, but not as pronounced as on the eastern seaboard. These women can also get away with a lot of promiscuity and partying it up in their 20s. They can stick the landing quite well.

Both of these groups can also walk out the life script pretty much to a T, if they want to.”

Context is critical here. In other contexts it can be more, or less, challenging depending on how many men are “left” at the time the woman leaves the “carousel”, the overall sex ratio where the woman lives, her overall level of attractiveness, and so on.

How to be Just Like Them

In the last post, I explained why Sticking the Landing is for the Elite (2021 May 10). Women who are UMC or higher, and are able to stick the landing, have the following traits.

  1. Attractiveness / Looks
  2. Discipline
  3. Intelligence / Smarts
  4. Education
  5. Upbringing

Obviously a critical juncture in the HUSsie life script is the transition from the 20s “carousel”/dating lifestyle to the more “intentional dating” lifestyle that is oriented towards finding a husband and not merely a fun guy to date and sleep with while you are busy doing the work/grad-school/travel script. This transition can be more or less challenging due to a number of factors, which is why it has become referred to as “sticking the landing” — that is, as a gymnast “sticks the landing” after a floor routine, the HUSsie will try to “stick the landing” after ejecting herself from the carousel so that she can find a husband. The landing is “stuck” with marriage to an attractive and suitable man.

But most women are not gymnasts.

A woman can be more confident of her ability to “stick the landing”, in a variety of contexts, if and only if she has looks, smarts, discipline, and solid family of origin. This explains the HUSsie phenomenon: white, upper middle class, college educated, employed women from two parent families in their late 20s and early 30s still able to find attractive husbands and have small families (one, maybe 2 kids, 3 if they’re doing really well).

But pretty much, only those women who possess at least four of the five ADIEU traits are those who are able to stick the landing. You have to have most or all of those characteristics to do it. White, intact family, UMC on up, at least a bachelor’s degree, employed, and good looking.

Tucker’s Point, Bermuda.

Epilogue

DC and SF are truly crazy outliers nationally, yet these areas dominate the political arena and the tech/internet industry, respectively, and are therefore among the most influential places. They head up politics and the media, and they design systems which everyone else has to follow. The information and systems they produce are what works for them and for people like them. Everyone else is expected to be like them, as well, to the best of their ability, and to move to these cities as well (hence the response that rural areas don’t have any problems a U-Haul can’t solve).

Just as men are pressured to get into the top 20% before they are recognized, women feel the need to shoehorn themselves into the HUSsy lifestyle in order to be taken seriously.

Feminism is one of the main drivers of this, coming as it did squarely from this social class, and always having the priorities of the women of this class at its forefront.

But of course, this idyllic life script is unachievable to the vast majority of women. It doesn’t work, because regular people aren’t “just like” the elites. They lack the connections, the attitude, the future time orientation, and the cultural and social markers that help women move up the ladder like the elites do. They don’t look as good or dress as well, or “clean up” as well. They don’t have a sense of life stability that comes from living in a wealthy, intact family. This is why what works for the HUS/elite set won’t work for most anyone else.

This is really one of the central contradictions in American society currently, and one of the greatest sources of tensions. The society has been set up, in everything from social mores to education system to economy and living arrangements, to facilitate this specific lifestyle that truly is centered on a handful of large cities.

As long as our society clearly prioritizes and revolves around ambitious, smart, upper middle class white women, life for them will be vastly improved in virtually all ways. Meanwhile, the rest of the women get a mixed bag — some obviously beneficial things and a lot of things that are arguably worse.

ADIEU!

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This entry was posted in Authenticity, Boundaries, Convergence, Culture Wars, Discerning Lies and Deception, Discipline, Female Power, Feminism, Influence, Media, Models of Failure, Organization and Structure, Personal Presentation, Politics, Purpose, Self-Concept, Society, Solipsism, Strategy, Vetting Women. Bookmark the permalink.

81 Responses to ADIEU HUSsies Sell a Broken Script

  1. info says:

    Elite Wealth and Power is dependent on the lower levels of the pyramid. As the lower levels are eroded so are their wealth and power in the long term.

    Therefore the ADIEU lifescript is unsustainable for even those women in the long term.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Red Pill Apostle says:

      I went to one of the universities mentioned in the article. The wealth many of the families whose kids attend is enough to fend off consequences for generations. Also, the families figured out how to accumulate and preserve wealth, so my hunch is that most of them will adapt to changes in ways that keep them wealthy.

      You are correct that the ADIEU life script is unsustainable long term. It is because it’s built on a lie of what makes most women truly happy (you can only deny how God made us for so long until the damage becomes readily apparent). There is a ton of pressure on women to maintain those parts of life necessary to realize the life script and many can’t handle it. I personally knew girls in college that ended up on medication because they were chronically unhappy. And currently, I know many never married female classmates who chased the script and did not stick the landing.

      If I remember the figures right, about a third of the female population is on some sort of mood altering drug. Any philosophy that eats its own at that rate is going to create an environment where people choose other options to avoid the pain. It’s the pendulum swinging back in the other direction.

      Liked by 5 people

      • Phil Ossifer says:

        I’ll second this. I also went to a university mentioned here (think very politically incorrect mascot in the 90s) with lots of wealthy people. The group in our Bible Study mostly paired off, married by mid-20s, and are still married. Most of the people we knew who followed the ADIEU script, well, they didn’t stick the landing.

        Liked by 2 people

  2. professorGBFMtm2021 says:

    Aunt giggles susan walsh was always good for a laugh!Like when she accused dal’&others of trying to harm her &her family,that was the only time she was realy anything to us redpillers!Why did she give up in ’17?She did’nt fail did she?Oh, she became grandma giggles!?Rollo was right on her being good for giggles!!
    I have never thought much of these propped up elites is it obvious?

    Liked by 1 person

    • Novaseeker says:

      I believe she left because (1) her daughter(s?), who were the original source of her interest in the topic, would have been around 30 or so by then and so past the period covered by her blog and (2) events in the world made her approach superfluous. In terms of point (2), the rise of dating apps changed everything, and basically set aside most of what HUS was talking about, because it fundamentally changed the game for women in ways that Susan likely never really understood.

      Liked by 4 people

      • thedeti says:

        Susan Walsh got into blogging because her daughter was a student at Duke. Daughter and her friends congregated around Walsh, the ultimate wine aunt, to commiserate and get ideas. She became a Game proponent when her son, about 3 or 4 years behind his big sister, was floundering around at Tufts and not doing all that well in school, with girls, and with life. I think Susan genuinely wanted to find a way to help her kids.

        Her kids achieved their milestones. Her attractive daughter married what appears to me to be a beta fux man. He is very much like Susan’s daughter in social status, upbringing, and background, from all appearances. They’re quintessential New England DINKs who will have one designer kid. She’ll be back at work and the baby with Susan and Steve just as fast as she can get back on the treadmill to get back to beach body status. Her son married his longtime girlfriend and is gainfully employed. He became a father shortly before Susan hung it up.

        Susan got her daughter married off to the Better Beta. She got her son married off, and she’s a grandmother now. Her children safely ensconced in their situations to inherit the family names, wealth, and social status, her blogging job was complete. That’s why Susan Walsh got out.

        Liked by 3 people

      • thedeti says:

        Incidentally, Susan Walsh epitomized ADIEU and its target demographics – white, upper middle class, Brahmin upbringing and tastes, parents longtime married but not without their problems, college educated (at UPenn and then Wharton no less), employed, with a premarital sexual history, and married. Susan stuck the landing perfectly. The HUSsies all wanted to be Susan.

        Liked by 3 people

      • Novaseeker says:

        Yes, Susan Walsh was the paradigmatic landing sticker, albeit from an earlier generation when it was far easier to stick the landing.

        She met her husband as a ONS, no strings encounter that just happened to become her husband. It’s the dream of the carousel working out .. sleep with men you find attractive enough to sleep with for a ONS and one of them will end up being both suitable for marriage and interested in marrying you, just like Susan.

        So, yes, they all wanted to be her, which is why she had pull with her readers.

        Liked by 2 people

      • info says:

        Her grandchildren may find it harder even still I think. And perhaps it will end with her grandchildren.

        Liked by 2 people

  3. lastmod says:

    …and why do we even care about these women??????????

    As long as they were putting out when you were a young man and before you had a real walk with “jesus” . As long as they still give you IOI’s at the gym (they are just attracted to the raw masculinity you have even at 55, 50, 45, 42… They can’t help it… that visceral look thing)

    AS long as they give YOU attention. It’s okay.

    Any other man. You must stay away from them.

    Women like this in San Francisco? I am sure there are…… mostly women who are white, over-educated, very, very liberal and working in places and positions and have been ENABLED by men like yourself (i.e. giving them attention)

    Most women are just not this smart. Sorry.

    Like

  4. info says:

    If the Elites who are able to subsist on this on this lifescript and likewise have have abandoned the Right-Wing masses. Then one must either seek their conversion by God’s Grace. But if they intent on rebellion against Him regardless of Grace.

    Then we must also ask God in prayer to give us worthy Men to lead us in their stead. In the same way David was raised up from shepherding to become King of Israel and his Royal House culminating in Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Liked by 3 people

  5. Robert S says:

    Jack and Nova,
    I think you hit the nail on the head. It is a very narrow demographic that may be able pull off this plan. And it’s important to note that it’s not just being from the right background, but one must be the pick of the litter that has not only the looks but all of the other traits that you mention which often only some of the family members may have. Even in those families there are the lesser members who don’t quite measure up. So, I think that you have perfectly described the con job that has been presented to American women over the last 50 years.

    They get the so called examples of women who have done it (actual and in commercials) and attempt to present them as ordinary representatives of the female population of which anyone who sets their mind to it can do the same. Then 90-95% percent of the women who try it discover that it’s not so easy to accomplish especially if you have picked up a child (and/or abortion) along the way and, possibly, an STD or two as well as a notch count that you probably would need more than two hands to tally. Then they have to convince themselves that they are a catch (like their friends told them) and will make a great (equal) “partner” and just need to hit the right clubs and/or coworker and they are set. A forever, happy home with two children and a dog, a nice cottage and a white picket fence.

    O the vain imaginations and sad plight of American women who want it all.

    Liked by 3 people

  6. lastmod says:

    My graduate school is one of the top polytechnics in the USA, though I didn’t get an engineering degree from them…it was effing hard, and very cut-throat in my field of study and department in the mid-1990’s as this “newer” field was emerging (User Centered Design / technical communications).

    The mostly men in my department were not the typical or traditional students at the polytechnic. Tall, swimmers, played water polo, were from white-bread ghettos (lol) like NewTown, CT. Gloucester, MA. Merrimack, NH. Dorset, VT and Westchester County, NY.

    They didn’t look like most of the students…..Dungeon & Dragon players……people who think “Star Trek” is real. Then, like now….just about zero women there. All the men I was in graduate program with all ended up at Dow Chemical, GE, Microsoft, Sun, and I landed at IBM. Like it was “supposed” to happen.

    I never fit in with this handsome “biff types” but I knew how they behaved. I went to prep school with them and dealt with them at undergrad. You basically: let them talk non-stop on how great they are at everything (all liberal, all Democrat…even back then) and just know your place around them. You can’t beat them in the looks, family connections or even connected areas (like status).

    I was allowed in their party so to speak because I could always score good cocaine (even back then) and I was a bartender in grad school (local college bar…none of them had to work) and they expected me to kick them free drinks.

    Their girlfriends were ALWAYS smoking hot or well above average and usually very annoying and foul mouthed when drunk, or if you dared criticize ANYONE in the statehouse of DC with a letter “d” for their political affiliation

    Liked by 2 people

    • Novaseeker says:

      And for the bonus, the question is … why are they all “D”s?

      ….

      The concept is “luxury belief’, akin to a luxury good. If you’re not wealthy enough so that you actually have to care about the government taking some of your money, you’re just not one of them.

      Liked by 2 people

      • cameron232 says:

        Many of their other beliefs are luxury beliefs. Not just tax rates.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Novaseeker says:

        I agree. It’s just the most obvious example to make the point to readers.

        Feminism was supported by this class for the same reasons: if you were a man who didn’t have enough personal power and wealth to be impacted by feminism, you’re not one of them.

        All of these policies impact all men, all people, etc., but if you are starting out from a position of power (like they are) you know that the “hurt” will impact those with less much more than it will impact you. They can take away some of your “excess” money and power, and you will still be very rich and powerful, more than anyone else. Take away money and power from those below you, especially those who are below you yet closest to you, and it hurts them a lot more, and makes it that much harder for them to challenge you. So you win.

        This is why the alliance between the “top” and the “bottom” against the middle makes political sense — it just makes perfect sense in terms of the power play.

        Liked by 3 people

      • cameron232 says:

        The other obvious example – race-woke rich dude that lives in a castle in Vermont or a gated community in northern virginia.

        Well yeah that’s leftism always – top/bottom vs. middle.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Novaseeker says:

        Yep.

        It’s logical. If you’re on the top, you’re biggest threats are (a) revolution from the masses (bottom) and (b) dilution of your power by too many from the rung below you infiltrating the top and joining you.

        So you want to prevent (a) and keep (b) in its place. And it should go without saying that at any and all costs you want to keep (a) and (b) from being in a coalition of any kind, because then you lose, quickly and bigly, at least until tech reaches a point where the entire game is mooted and a new game is being played (not there yet). This isn’t that hard, because there is a lot of natural inherent animosity between (a) and (b) to begin with for the same basic reason — they are jostling up against each other. So all you need to do is exploit that inherent tension, magnify it a bit, make the social and media and cultural lens focus on it, and your work is mostly done. The kind of roiling tension that ensues is more than enough to prevent that kind of nightmarish (a)+(b) coalition from forming, and you can then safely revert to playing (a) and (b) against each other in various ways that al work to ensure that you remain in full power and control and in as minimally a diluted way as possible.

        Liked by 2 people

      • cameron232 says:

        I suspect there is something in human nature/psychology that leads to this. As a low level employee I have often been treated pretty well by much higher up employees e.g. Vice Presidents but I have noticed these same men are often ruthless @$$holes to those men just below them. I chalked it up to me being an insignificant little insect not worth squashing but it’s more than that – they are actually pretty good to me.

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        While I don’t doubt it’s about power, I also think they believe in their religion.

        Stole (slightly modified) this line from someone: “Repentance in their (the left) religion means that you will commit an act of contrition and they will receive salvation as a result.”

        Liked by 1 person

  7. (Q) What if your plan doesn’t work?

    (Their A) does not compute

    Liked by 2 people

  8. redpillboomer says:

    “A woman can be more confident of her ability to “stick the landing”, in a variety of contexts, if and only if she has looks, smarts, discipline, and solid family of origin. This explains the HUSsie phenomenon: white, upper middle class, college educated, employed women from two parent families in their late 20s and early 30s still able to find attractive husbands and have small families (one, maybe 2 kids, 3 if they’re doing really well).”

    This is purely anecdotal, but I’ve noticed (or think I noticed) during COVID 2020-21, some of the younger women I used to do the educational program with a few years back might be struggling a bit maintaining the script and sticking the landing. It seems that the DIE in ADIEU might have bit them in the ass during COVID; that is they either lost their nice, cushy HR or other related jobs or were seriously curtailed in pursuing them in 2020. I noticed a number of ‘entrepreneurial attempts’ at yoga businesses on-line, ‘somatic alchemy’ dance classes, and other ‘you name it’ spiritual practices. I think our late twenty and early thirty somethings might have had a set back following the script/strategy in 2020 into 2021 because of the pandemic. Any others of you have any insight into this or thoughts on it? My data set is just three women that I personally know, or used to know.

    Like

  9. I don’t think the top women are falling for this part of the current B.S., but I wonder what all the 18-25 females currently shrieking daily for the out-and-out destruction of white men “think” is gonna happen when they want a suitable guy for that part of the script.

    Liked by 6 people

    • cameron232 says:

      A large number of white women are irreparably damaged. I don’t mean (just) from a sexual point of view. From a mental/emotional/spiritual point of view. If you find a good one have as many children as you can because we’d be better off if a lot of these crazy white women didn’t breed.

      Liked by 2 people

      • There is no way to assure that the “good one” you miraculously found will remain “good”. If she decides a change is in order she has the entire might of the government behind her.

        Liked by 4 people

      • cameron232 says:

        Sure there’s always risk, always has been – but yes, it’s greater now.

        Liked by 1 person

      • redpillboomer says:

        I recall one Manosphere content creator had a clip entitled something like, “Don’t date/be with any female over the age of 27.” In his cover pic, the 27 was crossed out and replaced by a 25. He said in the clip that after 25, they are too emotionally damaged to pair bond. It was an interesting point of view. But heck, you don’t have to go back too many decades, six or seven maybe, when they were considered ‘old maids’ by the age of 25 if they weren’t married yet. It makes you wonder about the women in our western societies, how much damage there really is out there, psychologically and emotionally speaking? One indicator I think would be the rise in anti-depressant usage among women. I’ve heard 25% of them under 35 are on anti-depressants, but that is a very conservative estimate ‘they’ say. It might be more like a third or even higher.

        Any further insights gents?

        Liked by 4 people

  10. cameron232 says:

    Off topic, but I stumbled on this at social pathologist’s blog. Had seen some discussion about this recently. Data showing the relationship between male promiscuity and divorce. Imperfect for estimating divorce probability since the metric collected was current marital status but this suggests that a woman with n=2/3 (total including current partner) has about the same divorce risk as a man with n=20+.

    https://socialpathology.blogspot.com/2010/09/2002-male-and-female-statistical-data.html

    I remember Cane Caldo offering good commentary on this but I can’t find it.

    Liked by 2 people

  11. thedeti says:

    Cameron says:

    “A large number of white women are irreparably damaged. I don’t mean (just) from a sexual point of view. From a mental/emotional/spiritual point of view.”

    RPB says:

    “It makes you wonder about the women in our western societies, how much damage there really is out there, psychologically and emotionally speaking?”

    My thoughts:

    There’s a lot of damage out there in the US. The main effects are women’s severely distorted views on sex, dating, and marriage in all arenas, across the board, from start to finish – the overall purposes of sex, dating and marriage in a woman’s life, the roles they’re supposed to play in a woman’s life, what they are supposed to look like, how to prepare for them, how they work, and how to select men for them.

    Many women lack even a fundamental understanding of where to begin on any of it. They don’t understand even their own relationship to their own bodies. They don’t understand anything about what sex, dating, and marriage are for. It is as if we’ve handed the nuclear football to a set of drunken fraternity brothers and left on vacation.

    Many women have not the first idea of how men approach sex, dating and marriage. They don’t know men, don’t understand men, don’t know what men want or need, and, frankly, don’t care what men want or need.

    There’s a lot of damage on men’s side too. As Scott said up there, the system is rigged to cause men to believe they’re a lot less valuable than they really are. Men are deeply, deeply confused about what they are supposed to do to attract women, comport themselves with women, what women want and find attractive, and what is and is not acceptable in dealing with women.

    A huge part of the problem for men is that we no longer have ANY margin for error. Boys and men are not free to make mistakes, step over the line, push the envelope, apply gentle pressure. Even the slightest misstep will result in the loss of a budding relationship. Or worse – mistakes can lead to getting kicked out of school, accused of “date rape”, job loss, or criminal charges. One slight mistake can lead to total educational, social, or professional ruination.

    What used to be two drunk college students going a little too far is now “date rape”. What used to be a man applying gentle pressure is now “rape”. What used to be a man pushing the envelope a little is now “assault and battery”. What used to be a man getting a little too pushy is now “harassment”. What used to be a man getting interested in a woman at work is now “harassment” and is a fireable offense. What used to be a husband telling a wife what is and is not acceptable is now “abuse”. What used to be a husband telling a wife “no” is now “abuse” and “unChristian”. What used to be a husband taking authority over his family is now “tyranny” and “a violation of the Duluth model”.

    There has to be some play in the joints. There has to be some social lubrication and room for error. Men have to be free to commit error, to push things a little, to apply pressure, to have standards and to expect women to live up to those standards, to get into and to correct misunderstandings, and to walk away from situations. And, dammit, women have GOT to start taking responsibility for their own roles in all this. Look, women: If you get drunk and get alone with a man, you need to know how he’s going to read that. You agree to be alone with a man, he reads that as “GAME ON” and he’ll step on the gas and go for it. You need to be prepared for that.

    A world where only top 20% men can make mistakes and push the envelope is not a world where men can get much of what they want. The only reason men are still trying to play? P_ssy. Because there’s still some chance that if he stays in the game, some p_ssy might come his way. That’s it.

    Liked by 5 people

    • thedeti says:

      The Aziz Ansari and Louis CK kerfuffles are perfect examples of this.

      Ansari invited some reporter or groupie back to his place for drinks… there was some awkward oral sex, some start and stop… she got uncomfortable… she then gave a tell all interview to some online ‘zine and derailed Ansari’s career for a good long while.

      Louis invited some girls back to his hotel room after a show, during which he drank with them and then pulled out his penis and started masturbating in front of them.

      Neither of these things were sexual misconduct in any way. No crimes were committed.

      If these things had happened during my college or grad school careers or early in my career, these would not in any way be considered education-ending or career-ending events. Awkward sex, weird sex, bad sex, uncomfortable sex, or sex that didn’t work out the way you thought it would, does NOT mean anyone committed any kind of “sexual misconduct”.

      A man inviting an adult woman to his hotel room and then masturbating in front of her might be weird, strange, or even perverted. It might make her extremely uncomfortable and would kill her attraction and sexual mood. It is NOT, however, criminal in any way.

      Neither Ansari nor Louis committed any crimes. Louis didn’t even touch any of these women. and yet they both got cancelled or close to it.

      Look, ladies: What the hell do you think is going to happen when you go on a date with a man, eat food and drink alcohol, and then agree to be alone with him at his place?? Why do you think a man invites a woman to his hotel room at midnight? Huh? He’s not looking for someone to discuss current events, dearies. If you don’t want to have sex with him, why are you going to his hotel room at midnight? Is it really for the possibility of scoring some free drugs?

      In case I have to spell this out for people – he’s looking to use legal or illegal substances, have some fun, and hopefully get the woman who’s there to have sex with him. And anyone who can’t figure that out should not be allowed in public unchaperoned.

      The point is that this is the kind of pushing the envelope that never used to get guys in trouble but now results in career-destroying publicity. This is the kind of thing that used to really weird women out and they wouldn’t have anything to do with the men again, but it wasn’t cause for law enforcement, lawyers, courts, media frenzies, and educational/career destruction. It was a sexual/social “cost of doing business”. Sometimes it doesn’t work, sometimes he’s a weirdo or socially inept, sometimes he’s not who or what you thought, sometimes he lied to you, sometimes you get disappointed, sometimes the sex is terrible. But sheesh, nobody committed any crimes. You chalked it up and went your separate ways. Worst that happened was wasted time and money all around.

      But we can’t do that now. Now, anytime a woman’s feelings get hurt or she gets uncomfortable or she’s in the presence of an unattractive man or she doesn’t get absolutely everything she wanted from an interaction, it’s a federal case that calls for police and court involvement and the man’s career destruction. How the hell does anyone expect men to navigate a social and political environment like this?

      Liked by 3 people

    • Scott says:

      The mistakes need to be made in order to develop correctly.

      When I was 14, I took a girl to the winter formal. I worked hard on her. I walked her between classes, made her laugh in class, etc. When I asked her to the dance and she said yes I felt like I won the lottery.

      At the dance, I barely touched her. If I remember right, I held her hand, and danced with her.

      I thought I was in there! I am moving in the right direction.

      The VERY NEXT Monday after the dance, I was walking by her locker and she was sucking face and playing grab ass with some guy who had her totally pinned against the locker. I thought they were going to f&$# right there.

      I never made that mistake again. That is where I learned several lessons I have been preaching about here and to my clients for years now.

      1– NEVER pursue.
      2– Wait for obvious IOIs, if not, NEXT!
      3– Once you have her alone, be aggressive. That’s why she is there with you.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Scott says:

        Those last three are supposed to be three bullet points. Stupid wordpress formatting.

        Like

      • Scott says:

        An addendum to this.

        This is why dads and older brothers are so important. I have two older brothers and a dad all three of whom maintained fairly good “frame” at all times. When I told my dad what happened, he rolled his eyes and sneered at me and was annoyed. He essentially told me this was a stupid story that only happens to spectators in life.

        I hated feeling like that in his presence.

        Like

      • redpillboomer says:

        Lol, brought back memories for me. When I was in Jr High and High School, I had an opportunity with two good looking and stacked girls. What I didn’t understand is what you mentioned Scott:

        “Once you have her alone, be aggressive. That’s why she is there with you.”

        I did NOT do this. I did the nice guy thing. They lost all interest. Of course, being a young male I analyzed it to death, like in, “What did I do wrong? Why did they stop having anything to do with me other than being polite in the school hallways?” Couldn’t figure it out. Finally, the light bulb went off in my head. Next girl at the HS dance, she and I got alone, and I was aggressive in a masculine way, not like an asshole (I didn’t know how to be that way anyways), but asserted my maleness in the kissing and fondling department; and voila, you guessed it, I was ‘in like Flint’ as the old saying goes. That is exactly why she was there with me alone in the first place. I finally got it. It seemed so easy. Not saying she was a bad girl or anything like it, but it was so natural for her and me. Young me learned a big lesson that day! But today, I shudder thinking the kind of blow back and trouble that a young man might get if he did the same thing. Times certainly have changed!

        Liked by 1 person

      • Scott says:

        “…aggressive in a masculine way, not like an asshole…”

        Admittedly, this part takes a little finesse, the kind Louis CK and the other guy clearly were not tracking if the stories are correct.

        If it feels weird, you are doing it wrong.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Novaseeker says:

        This is correct.

        Which then leads to the problem of guys either (1) not getting any IOIs from women to whom they are attracted or (2) not noticing IOIs.

        Almost all of the attraction issues are under one of those two rubrics. (2) is more fixable than (1) is. If you are in group (1), then you either have to get yourself attracted to different women (hard to do), get more attractive yourself (the difficulty varies depending on what the issues are), move to a different market, or sit out and do something else with your life.

        Liked by 2 people

      • thedeti says:

        “Which then leads to the problem of guys either (1) not getting any IOIs from women to whom they are attracted or (2) not noticing IOIs.”

        A lot of people don’t remember this, but… Red Pill/manosphere used to be geared to guys in group (2). Guys who could get some interest from women and could get things started, but couldn’t keep them going, almost always for the same reasons.

        Something about him is kind of off. He looks OK, but he’s kind of awkward and inexperienced. He doesn’t notice women’s IOIs or misreads them. He hesitates when he should be pressing forward. He’s timid when he should be assertive, even a little aggressive. He’s boring. He’s painfully uncomfortable with himself or others.

        He lets her run everything, lets her dictate the rules of engagement, and defers to her. He asks instead of does. He gives when he should take. Instead of taking action, he just talks. He reveals too much of himself too soon. He stays too long. He doesn’t cut his losses and walk away.

        Or, he has his interactions OK but there’s something glaringly wrong physically and he’s got a real blind spot about it. Overweight. Out of shape. Bad hair. Bad breath. Jacked, crooked, yellow teeth. Terrible clothes.

        And the SMP was something distinct from the RMP. The SMP was one skill set, the RMP another one entirely. You needed some SMP skills for the RMP, but if you had no RMP skills, you would never ever get there.

        Those are the men who the manosphere served once upon a time.

        Now, a lot of the men around here, the younger men, and men at the Red Pill subreddit, are men who are not from and were not raised in a Western, English speaking SMP or RMP, or they’re omegas. Group (1) guys. They can’t get anything going. They have not the slightest idea what they’re doing. They lack even a fundamental understanding of women, the SMP, or the RMP. They know next to nothing about women or how to attract one – they just know they want to have sex with one. What they know and understand about themselves is not much greater. They have enormous blind spots about their own shortcomings. They don’t know what they don’t know. They have unknown unknowns, which is the most dangerous place to be. Now, the SMP and RMP are coextensive; the RMP has been absorbed and subsumed into the SMP. Now, if you have no SMP skills, you’re dead in the water.

        The Red Pill subreddit, PUA, Game, and the original manosphere can’t do anything for these men. These men are lacking most of the fundamental skeletal structure to interact with women in any productive way. It is as these men were expecting to live safe lives in houses that are really just poured concrete basement foundations. That isn’t a house. It’s barely anything at all. It has no structure. It’s nothing.

        That’s a big part of the reason why we are where we are now.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        “Admittedly, this part takes a little finesse, the kind Louis CK and the other guy clearly were not tracking if the stories are correct.

        If it feels weird, you are doing it wrong.”

        If it feels weird you are being hesitant in some way about what you are doing and she’s most likely picking up on that and then hesitating herself leading to awkwardness. This is when Heartiste’s irrational self confidence and when in doubt act with more boldness axioms are very applicable. They certainly help hide a good amount of inexperience and knowing what you want and going for it tends to be attractive to women.

        Liked by 1 person

      • thedeti says:

        “This is when Heartiste’s irrational self confidence and when in doubt act with more boldness axioms are very applicable.”

        Dealing with women is one of those situations where, usually, it’s better to do it wrong or too much than to do too little or nothing at all. Err on the side of boldness. You’ll usually be forgiven for being an a$$hole; but you’ll never be forgiven for being a p_ssy.

        Maybe you don’t really know what to do, but you had better do something. You better make something happen.

        Like

      • Novaseeker says:

        “Maybe you don’t really know what to do, but you had better do something. You better make something happen.”

        Generally, yes.

        Unless you’re Aziz Ansari, however. He was just well-known enough that by making a mistake in an area like that (one that no-one really thought was wrongful, but just really awkward and off-putting) it profited the woman to publicly shame him for it, and so she did. If Ansari is a nobody, nothing happens to him at all in that situation. As it is, nothing much happened and he went on with his career more or less after a relatively brief hiatus, but he did get the public embarrassment for his fumbling approach to the girl, which a “normal” guy wouldn’t have gotten.

        Liked by 1 person

    • As per usual I agree with everything that Deti says, but I also have a question (for anyone really).

      Who, when told they have permission to act with complete impunity in any and every social situation, is going to give that up?

      Go out with a guy and it works out to her immense and total satisfaction? Great. Go out with a guy who disappoints her in any minor way possible? She’s a victim and can get major bonus points for screaming that she’s a victim. That’s what women have now and I don’t see them surrendering that trump card any time soon.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Novaseeker says:

        Yes, that’s absolutely right. Men would do the same if they had the same power, as well (differently of course, due to sex differences, but women aren’t unique in their aptitude to abuse power .. it’s human).

        They have the power solidly now and they won’t give that up unless they are forced to do so, and that won’t happen unless something quite nasty happens to all of us.

        Liked by 3 people

      • info says:

        @Novaseeker

        Lack of repentance ensures that Divine Wrath gets built up like the plagues of Egypt.

        Every generation that does unrepentant evil stores up wrath that would be even worse should their descendants continue.

        Like

      • info says:

        @Novaseeker

        Lack of repentance ensures that Divine Wrath gets built up like the plagues of Egypt.

        Every generation that does unrepentant evil stores up wrath that would be even worse should their descendants continue.

        Like

      • Red Pill Apostle says:

        I think we are currently experiencing generational punishment as described in Numbers 14:18 and Deuteronomy 5:9. Since locusts are out of style in the 21st century, God appears to be chastising us with natural consequences. Feminism really took hold in the early to mid part of the 20th century so we’re at generation 3, give or take. Men, in large part, abandoned their God given role of headship in capitulating to feminists and soon after we were given laws that stack the legal deck against men that seek to restore it.

        As we have gone against God’s instructions for marriage and family, we have seen a host of societal ills become more common. The strong independent women has a substantial minority on anti-depressants or anxiety medication and many miss their window to have children. The Proverbs 21:9,19 husband is the rule, not the exception, and a blessed few end up with the biblically submissive wife that greatly improves the chances of a good marriage.

        I don’t see how the pain and brokenness we see all around us isn’t God pouring out His wrath on us in the form of experiencing the consequences of sin. We know the common indicators from when Israel strayed in the old testament. The list isn’t all inclusive, but here are a few: idolatry (take your pick from the list people worship), praising sin as good, false teaching in churches, churches openly denying biblical truth and endorsing sin, everything Paul lists in 1 Cor 6:9-10, etc.

        I think the only way out of the mess we’re in is to do everything and anything we can to fix our families. If we don’t raise our kids to be God fearing adults that are grounded in truth, we’ll have kicked the can down the road to yet another generation.

        Liked by 2 people

  12. lastmod says:

    “This is why dads and older brothers are so important. I have two older brothers and a dad all three of whom maintained fairly good “frame” at all times. When I told my dad what happened, he rolled his eyes and sneered at me and was annoyed. He essentially told me this was a stupid story that only happens to spectators in life. I hated feeling like that in his presence.”

    Scott, I had a good, solid and loving father. I remember mentioning something about not having a date to some stupid dance in jr. high… rejected by some gal, he smirked (and I can see it clearly to this day), he put out his cigarette… laughed in a kind way. “You’re fourteen, plenty of time in life for that…and who is this girl?”

    I told him her name. I grew up in a tiny town. So everyone knew everybody family, et al. ….

    “She’s a carpenters dream (meaning flat chested), why waste your time with that? Like I said, you have your whole life, in ten years no one will care if a gal like this didn’t want to go to a dance with you.”

    Now on camping / canoeing trips with dad, it was no “laughing matter”.

    Thunder, rain, miles out in the Siamese Pond Wilderness area in the Adirondacks, his voice boomed over the thunder, “You’ve hiked Marcy, Whiteface, and Colden……. and I leave for ten minutes to scout ahead on the trail for tomorrow morning, I tell you to get a fire going and I come back…. and you don’t have it going? The hell is wrong with you? This is basic stuff Scout! (my nickname), You’ve built fires in the rain, and you have dry tinder…. I sometimes wonder about you.”,

    I hated feeling like THAT in my dad’s presence.

    Liked by 2 people

  13. lastmod says:

    “…or sit out and do something else with your life.”

    As if IOI’s are the thing that matters in this life anyway right? Join a monastery? Help the poor? It does get easier as a man gets older, will admit this. Still…….it stings badly, even now. No, it doesn’t throw me into despair or gloom……. but out dancing (pre Covid). Just loving it. The a slower Motown track falls on the 45rpm……..DJ kicks back off the deck and smiles. People grab a hand go out on to the dancefloor…… and well… that is when I sit out. Watch. Always watching. Most of the crowd is younger, so I am not going to walk up to a 21 year old gal and ask to dance (creepy). The women my age are with their husbands or partners, or have cougared up for the night. The women who are not dancing are giving off that RFB (resting b*tch face) letting any man know, she does not want you to ask her to dance.

    Stuff like that still bites hard at times. It sometimes honestly feels like I am back at school, and feeling that “nothing has really changed since 1987” in these matters. Cursing to myself every past wrong I have ever done, thinking that this is the “penalty”.

    Then a faster track kicks up….. back on the floor. Everything gets better. (Smokey Robinson’s dance tracks from the sixties will do that to anyone.)

    I am noticing, and have for awhile……. that the pain from this isn’t as intense, and doesn’t last as long. As a younger guy, it would throw me into a fit of tears when I got home. Desperation. Depression….reaching for the drink, the cocaine……..

    Thank goodness that is over with. I don’t know how younger guys keep sane… It was bad enough for me…… with social media and now DECENT looking guys standing in the cold… must be brutal. In my day, it was the hopelessly unattractive, or dorkwad that was left out.

    Like

    • cameron232 says:

      Today’s women think very highly of themselves. There’s a woman at work divorced about 50 y.o. A divorced man who’s tall, skinny and maybe slightly socially awkward/goobbery asked her out. Normal looking 50ish guy. She complained to me as if she was insulted. He is a decent guy and normal looking – the idea that a wrinkle faced, man-hands 50 year old woman is too good for a guy who’s at least her quality level is ridiculous. Yet she complains about being alone. She has a large collection of rabbits (not cats).

      Liked by 1 person

  14. Ame says:

    came across the term: “Permanence of Marriage View” today … curious as to whether or not that has ever been discussed here?

    Like

    • Scott says:

      You mean has the idea of canonical tradition/sacramental theology about marriage been discussed here?

      Liked by 1 person

      • Ame says:

        Perhaps. I came across the term “Peemanence View,” looked it up, and apparently it’s a thing and books have been written for and against. Didn’t know if the term or any of the”notariety” surrounding the term had been discussed here.

        Like

      • Ame says:

        Have you come across this in counseling?

        Like

      • Ame says:

        In my extremely brief look at it, those for believe in 1 Corinthians 7. Those against do not.

        Like

      • Scott says:

        The idea that there are no “biblical” grounds for divorce is not new to RC and Orthodox.

        Canonical form may not have been met on the date of the marriage, which can create a situation where the marriage is declared null (Catholics). But once the sacrament has been formed, you are married, forever.

        For Orthodox, its a little less formalized, but the church does not grant divorces either. When a divorce happens, it is done by the individuals involved, and the church will acknowledge that it happened, without condoning or approving of it. A grave and cosmic injustice/error has happened, the two people failed to live up to the sacrament. The ripped up what God sewed together. Under certain circumstances, the church declares that the conditions for remarriage exist, and allows a 2nd and up to a 3rd marriage. But those are performed in a more somber, repentant ceremony to account for the fact that a sin (divorce) occurred.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Scott says:

        In other words, you cannot unconsecrate the host. You cannot unforgive someone. You cannot unmarry someone. These are sacraments that God performs, permanently.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Scott says:

        As a former protestant, I would agree that 1 COR 7 seems to suggest that once you are married there is no path to divorce. The individual(s) may behave as if they are unmarried, but they are dooming themselves to a life of adultery or celibacy.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Scott says:

        Does any of it matter in a society where “marriage” is conceptualized a contract (and one that any rational lawyer would call unconscionable) with no real teeth (except for making men pay for every thing if it fails)? Not really.

        The only thing that makes a marriage permanent today is how the woman feels at any given moment.

        Liked by 6 people

      • Ame says:

        I heard the term from a woman who is a Christian what recently divorced her husband because she no longer believes in the “permanence view” of marriage after reading several books about it.

        I was very disheartened, as I always am when there’s a divorce.

        It made me wonder what kind of vows people would make … certainly not for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness or in health. It would have to be until I determine you’re no longer attractive, no longer good for my emotional health, or whatever.

        Liked by 4 people

      • cameron232 says:

        Yep Scott. I’ve tried to promote the “you’re the One because I chose you”, not “I chose you because you’re the One” with my wife. No sell — it’s not romantic enough. The one time we had bad marriage problems, it was as if she could decide in the moment (based on internal feelings) whether the marriage was real. It’s a function of feelz – the idea of an objective reality independent of themselves is alien to most of them.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Ame says:

        I actually like “you’re the one because I chose you.”

        Liked by 3 people

      • cameron232 says:

        For clarity – I had become angry and violent (no drugs or alcohol) at that point in our marriage so it’s not the typical good-husband gets screwed over story you read here. Maybe as angry as AME’s husband IDK. Of course anger and violent isn’t unattractive to women so as long as you come to your senses and get reformed the marriage can work. She knew I had an angry side and married me still.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Ame says:

        His anger was intense, held in a tight hold, usually exhibited in intensive passive aggressive ways, and the level of control changed according to where he was in his addiction cycle.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Novaseeker says:

        The idea that there are no “biblical” grounds for divorce is not new to RC and Orthodox.

        Right. It was the traditional view of the entire church prior to the Reformation. Divorce, of course, was a big issue in the English Reformation, and so it became impossible for Anglo Protestants, as a practical matter, to take a hardline approach on divorce when the entire foundation of Anglo Protestantism to begin with was based on a rejection of the idea that there are no grounds for divorce. That, as they say, rippled through history in interesting ways.

        Liked by 4 people

      • cameron232 says:

        Nova, despite Henry the adulterer, England itself was in practice the most strict of the prots wrt divorce – Scotland was much more libertine.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        Ame one wonders why she bothered to read several books to change her mind. Google is a quicker way to figure out how to rationalize what you want to do.

        Liked by 1 person

      • cameron232 says:

        “Thou art Google and upon this rock…. ” and “Google the pillar of truth”

        Like

  15. Ame says:

    These people see divorce as freedom and new life. They do not see it as a death that continues. They will prop up their lie to match what they want to believe. They will ignore the evil side of now having the knowledge of good and evil after having eaten that fruit to justify their choices. When we do that, there can be no repentance.

    Liked by 3 people

  16. redpillboomer says:

    “These people see divorce as freedom and new life. They do not see it as a death that continues.”

    I’ve known some divorced men that have been remarried successfully for decades, AND they are still in emotional pain to some degree from the divorce from their first wife–the ‘wife of their youth’ as the Bible describes her. Two in particular I’m thinking about, successful Christian men who have seemingly good wives and strong second marriages; and yet, when they ‘took their mask off’ so to speak with me in private, both admitted they were still hurting about the dissolution of their first marriage. I was a bit surprised by this to be quite frank. They were both very public with their second marriages (military commanders whose wives had quite a public role/public face supporting the troops during the Afghan and Iraqi wars), to the point members of their units, particularly some of the female members, ‘envied’ their marriages; like in “Oh they have such a ‘perfect’ marriage. Wish I had one like theirs!” Interesting inquiry, the ‘divorced legally, but never really divorced emotionally because the ‘two became one flesh’ back-in-the-day.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Ame says:

      Yes. A thousand times yes. If I could give my husband one gift, it would to still be married to the wife of his youth (she detonated that). I’d give that gift to both of us.

      Liked by 2 people

    • cameron232 says:

      Scott has made it clear that he has scars from his experience with his ex – even though he got a much better wife.

      Liked by 2 people

  17. Ame says:

    This came up in a conversation referring to a recent time when something reminded me of the divorce days and made me very sad. She said she was sorry I was still struggling with the divorce and sort of suggested books against the permanence view of marriage to help me get over that and be completely ‘free’ and ‘healed.’

    I said nothing. Her divorce is recent. She knows my pov. She found ‘Christian’ books to support what she wanted to do.

    Only time will reveal the truth to her unless she chooses to ignore it to continue justifying herself.

    The fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil only looks good … until you eat the fruit, and time passes. And unless one chooses to believe this is true without experiencing it, they will learn the painful way the knowledge of the evil.

    Liked by 3 people

    • Novaseeker says:

      This is what I was able to find on this by a Google search:

      https://cryingoutforjustice.blog/2014/07/21/good-men-please-start-denouncing-the-permanence-view-of-marriage-that-denies-any-reason-for-divorce/

      https://josiahmeyer.wordpress.com/2020/08/06/why-i-no-longer-believe-in-the-permanence-view-of-marriage/

      It looks like just another one of many fights about the meaning of scripture, as is common enough in Protestant Christianity, unfortunately, but as a practical matter, leaving aside doctrine, I think it’s probably fair to say that, again as a de facto, practical, matter, most Christians of all kinds view marriage this way — that is, as dissoluble, and therefore as potentially impermanent. It is this way, as a practical matter, regardless of what the churches “officially” teach, or what a pastor publicly preaches, as the case may be, because individual Christians are mostly deeply enculturated, and when they have to choose between the culture and a formal teaching that goes directly against the culture, almost all of them choose the culture and either (1) hunt around for a justification (like this approach does), (2) claim that a justification isn’t necessary because the teaching is “just wrong and out of date” or (3) don’t care much, either way, because Christianity is an a la carte program for them anyway, and this kind of thing is not one of the things they put on their personal plate of Christian teachings that they picked while in the buffet line.

      Ultimately, it is this way with all of the teachings that contradict the sexual revolution. Very few Christians follow all of them, and when they don’t they take one of the approaches (1) to (3) and that’s that.

      The teachings don’t generally formally change very much (we have seen some changes in some of the most progressive extreme about gay people, but mostly not anywhere else), but people just stopped following many of them, quietly, quite some time ago.

      Liked by 3 people

      • Scott says:

        “The permanence view” of marriage is like saying “the wet view” of water.

        But to see that, from this side of my journey to Orthodoxy has involved a surrender to authority that everyone has to do alone.

        Liked by 4 people

      • Ame says:

        “In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes.” ~ Judges 21:25

        There truly is nothing new under the sun.

        Liked by 2 people

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