Fad Diets and Adjustment Disorders

This week’s ramblings.

It’s not just about sports nutrition, I promise. That’s only the first third.

0-0.33 — Introduction
0.33-12:19 — Fad Diets and Nutrition
12:19-14:15 — Comments about Joker at Better Bachelor (MGTOW) YouTube Channel
14:15-16:32 — Comments about James Lindsay at New Discourses (Paradox of tolerance; Herbert Marcusa’s political theories) YouTube Channel
16:32-17:19 — Comments about Zach Morris is Trash
17:19-24:05 — Diagnostic Criteria for Adjustment Disorders
24:05-25:04 — Personal life update and Closing

Correction: Karl Popper is responsible for the phrase “the paradox of tolerance”.

Basic Nutrition Principles

  • Avoid processed foods
  • Plenty of protein from lean/clean sources – supplement as needed
  • Not all fat is created equal
  • Carbs are your friend
  • Fruits and vegetables
  • Your goals matter
  • Timing of macros (probably) matters

DSM 5 Diagnostic Criteria for an Adjustment Disorder

Personality disorders are a series of adjustment disorders that continually recur.

A. The development of emotional or behavioral symptoms in response to an identifiable stressor(s) occurring within 3 months of the onset of the stressor(s)

B. These symptoms or behaviors are clinically significant, as evidenced by one or both of the following:

  1. Marked distress that is out of proportion to the severity or intensity of the stressor, taking into account the external context and the cultural factors that might influence symptoms severity and presentation.
  2. Significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

C. The stress related disturbance does not meet the criteria for another mental disorder and is not merely an exacerbation of a preexisting mental disorder.

D. The symptoms do not represent normal bereavement.

E. Once the stressor or its consequences have terminated, the symptoms do not persist for more than an additional 6 months.

We all have stressors, so it’s difficult to identify an adjustment disorder. A lot of the time, an adjustment disorder is only seen clearly in hindsight.

Zack Morris is Trash

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73 Responses to Fad Diets and Adjustment Disorders

  1. professorGBFMtm2021 says:

    SCOTT,
    ever get that ”SECRET GUIDE TO HEALTH&KNOWLEDGE? BOOK” from 73 MAGS founder WAYNE GREEN(Who died in 2013?)?Idid back in the day(2002) and he was talking about white flour &refined sugar being shown to be the main reasons of such things as increases in crime!This is’nt too MADMAXIAN-TYPE english is it?I’am not worthy to be happy or something so I must be put on RITALIN right,as some seem to think!?Is all this non-rehashed non-post nuclear war language okay?

    Liked by 1 person

  2. Jack says:

    Scott, I think your main point about Adjustment Disorders is that Personality Disorders are a series of Adjustment Disorders that continually recur.

    Is this just another definition of a Personality Disorder, or are you saying that Personality Disorders are caused by a series of Adjustment Disorders? Or is it the other way around? That is, Adjustment Disorders continually arise when one has a Personality Disorder.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Scott says:

      Its closer to the second one.

      But not exactly. It might a bit difficult to tease out here without a small primer on what these disorders are. Recall, disorders find their way in (and out) of the DSM by way of a strange cauldron of rationally and statistically derived processes of elimination/addition that ostensibly gets refined over each iteration of the manual.

      If we are to take the APAs word for it, this method would imply that whatever disorders appear in the most current edition are “real” in the sense that they are representative of the current, state of the art understanding of some psychological construct. Until they don’t.

      With that as the backdrop, all of this is to be taken with a grain of salt.

      Adjustment disorders are an old bulwark in the clinicians toolbox. (They have stood the test of time). Therefore, I think, they can be assumed to be relatively stable representations of phenomena. I propose (like I said, not my idea) that an adjustment disorder can be conceptualized as a sort of a “marker” of characterological defect in the person, because it reads like a microcosm of what happens to such a person when they encounter a stressor that is outside their normal ability to cope with.

      And for personality disordered individuals, “outside their normal ability to cope with” describes them all day long.

      This is not to say that everyone who meets the criteria, ever, has a personality disorder. Not at all. A normal, healthy individual, could have an adjustment disorder once and then never again. Or even have it happen a couple of times over the lifespan. But someone with personality pathology moves from one crisis to another, and never really gets off the adjustment disorder roller coaster.

      Liked by 2 people

  3. professorGBFMtm2021 says:

    EVERYBODY, I was having so much fun on LEXETS BLOG today, I forgot it was saturday (That explained no MICHAEL LANDON&VICTOR FRENCH going on the highway to heaven today!!)! Like I told our friend LEX, I woke up today to the sounds of GUITAR HEAVY, MANLY OPERA CULTURE or some meeting in ROISSY D.C.!?

    Liked by 1 person

  4. cameron232 says:

    You’re right about classical liberalism, Scott. And Marcuse was a real bastard.

    That’s sound nutritional advice NOT a “fad diet.”

    By coincidence, I saw an article on the crisis in men’s reproductive health. Sperm counts and T are way down (a common misconception is that you can easily get her pregnant if you have sperm count in the tens of millions – concentration still matters), cases of E.D. are way up (especially among younger men) and even dudes’ junk is shrinking. The article lists the causes as chemicals, lack of exercise and – YOU GOT IT – nutrition. It says dairy is a problem because of the estrogens – bummer because I love cheese. Take care of your junk gents and make the Mrs. happy. Exercise but stay off the bike – it crushes the boys – and stay out of the hot tub and sauna.

    https://nypost.com/2021/02/20/why-more-men-are-suffering-from-infertility-than-ever-before/

    Like

    • SFC Ton says:

      My hillbilly logic says most men aren’t active enough to be healthy

      Most fellas sit on their @$$ for work, sit on their @$$ on their way to work and back, then sit on their @$$ when they get home

      The men who workout think their 1 hour a day is enough to keep a machine that was desgined for near on constant, efficient movement healthy. Which makes 0 sense

      No doubt the other stuff is a factor but given how terrible our forefathers ate and how in motion they were vs how sedentary we are I’m gonna blame it on the lack of physical activity

      Liked by 4 people

      • professorGBFMtm2021 says:

        SFCTON,
        You are absolutely right!I only weight about 215lps at any given time,But I’m 6’3” plus I barely eat during the day & especialy at night!How many men or women can honestly say this?

        Liked by 3 people

      • feeriker says:

        Pure truth. This man is guilty as hell of said sin.

        Liked by 3 people

      • SFC Ton says:

        LOL I have the ADHD

        I have to physically active or I can’t deal with anything more complex then 2+2 = 4’ish

        Liked by 2 people

      • Ame says:

        i’m self-diagnosed ADD 🙂

        the H missed me, but i was always active outside as a kid – nothing organized, just not at home (wasn’t much wanted there).

        my Aspie-Girl had the H, and i prayed she would outgrow it – she did (that was a gift from God for my sanity – i admit to being selfish here!). she still has the ADD, though, so we make quite the pair when together 🙂

        Liked by 2 people

      • SFC Ton says:

        Nothing selfish about that

        Liked by 2 people

    • Oscar says:

      Obesity suppresses testosterone production in men, and low testosterone makes it harder to lose fat and gain muscle. To quote Fat Bastard, “it’s a vicious cycle”.

      https://www.nature.com/articles/ijir200842

      Obesity is an important risk factor for many common diseases including cardiovascular disease (CVD), type 2 diabetes, cancer and erectile dysfunction (ED). Adipose tissues produce a number of adipokines and cytokines, which affect endothelial and metabolic function resulting in insulin resistance and the metabolic syndrome (risks factors for CVD). Both ED and metabolic syndrome improve with a reduction in body mass index (BMI). The relationships among obesity, metabolic syndrome, ED, sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) and serum total and free testosterone levels are complex and often confusing to the physician. It is known that BMI is inversely proportional to serum total testosterone concentrations; low serum SHBG levels in obesity contribute to the low serum total testosterone. Recent studies show that BMI is also inversely proportional to free testosterone concentration. The characteristic low serum testosterone concentrations observed in obese men are also present in men with the metabolic syndrome and type 2 diabetes mellitus. A small proportion of men with ED have hypogonadism; however, the proportion increases if these men are obese with manifestations of the metabolic syndrome or type 2 diabetes mellitus. ED is a common symptom in patients with type 2 diabetes who also have low testosterone levels. This review describes the relationships between low serum testosterone concentrations and ED in obese patients and those with metabolic syndrome and type 2 diabetes mellitus.

      Liked by 1 person

  5. Elspeth says:

    I agree with Ton. My husband’s rural living, late 50s/early 60s aunts and uncles are in incredible physical shape compared to us in the suburbs even though we are more than a decade younger.

    They eat pie for breakfast, lol.

    O/T but worth a look.

    Liked by 1 person

  6. Ame says:

    someone just posted this link on fb … thought you men would like to see the latest book coming out of the ‘church’ here shortly, and i’m guessing it will be huge:

    https://religionnews.com/2021/02/18/ravi-zacharias-carl-lentz-is-the-evangelical-view-of-sex-at-the-root-of-our-sex-scandals/?fbclid=IwAR1ESQ-yy88S8OooGndxeWAgePJ5mNKNouc1R5GBu_E9RAQqjCsSfcSsNgs

    Liked by 2 people

    • cameron232 says:

      There’s no indication she understand male sexuality or female sexuality so I don’t trust her on anything. Sex isn’t 100% of relationships/marriage but it’s foundational for both men and women. This is particuarly the case when you allow people to choose their spouse (which in most of human history wasn’t done).

      As someone here recently posted, women divide men into “would f_ck” and “would marry” with a third category “neither” implied. “Would f_ck” is obfuscation and really means “want to f_ck” as in f_cking for the sake/pleasure of f_cking. “Would marry” means “will f_ck” (as in “will f_ck” when there’s something else for her in it – not talking about literal prostitution). This is the average “kinda happy” wife that needs the right timing, get in the mood for hubby, etc. Obviously “neither” is the guys most women won’t negotiate with. THis is the basic alpha-beta-gamma categorization. You could probably subcategorize betas into “greater” -preferred “will f_ck” and “lesser” – acceptable “will f_ck.” Most guys here (myself included) are probably in the “will f_ck” category. Scott and probably SAM are in the “want to f_ck” category. “Want to f_ck” guys produce visceral attraction in most (almost all?) women. BTW “want to f_ck” guys can still have beta traits which makes them even better.

      One of the most basic problems (and what she can’t understand) is that men want desire sex from women. This is the predominant theme in male-oriented pornography – desire sex – she really wants you. But Rollo is correct about something – you can’t negotiate desire. Men want desire sex with a woman with whom he’s given up all his freedom and has to work a lifetime job that he probably hates and the woman usually provides unenthusiatic sex when the planets align properly. So he seeks out desire sex from pornography (the best substitute most men can get) or he seeks desire from other women (which is easier when you’re married since women seem to be more attracted to another woman’s man). Then men get called out as wicked.

      Also, men from the time we are in middle school are bombarded with female semi-nudity and often girls talking about all sorts of sexual things in front of us (particuarly when we’re teens). Men and boys have to deal with a constant state of arousal and semi-arousal that is caused by women’s dress and behavior. SHe seems to show zero awareness of this.

      As far as women not having the big O most of the time my guess is that’s because they’re mostly married to men in the “will f_ck” category not men in the “want to f_ck” category. I don’t know what to say other than if you give men a basic anatomy lesson it’s pretty easy to give her the big O every time using your schwing-schwang only.

      In summary women categorize men into “want to f_ck”, “will f_ck” (for something in exchange) and “neither.” Most men are in the latter two categories hence the problem with expression of male sexuality when they received limited or no desire. Blackpilled? Yeah, the world’s an ugly place.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Novaseeker says:

        Cameron —

        Gregoire (the author of that piece) is a known commodity — Dalrock fisked her stuff severely on multiple occasions. She’s an evangelical feminist, so it’s to be expected.

        Deep Strength had a post about the differences between the way male and female desire and arousal work about a week or so ago that is worth reading.

        Suffice to say, women do not “grok” how male arousal actually works, other than in an observational/crude way — they simply have not experienced living in a male body, pumped full of testosterone, with the resultant sex drive, and how that is constantly stoked in a post sex-rev world. They tend to project their own sexual function onto us, and say that we are just not exercising control when we describe how our sexuality works, and Gregoire is an example of that (virtually all feminists do this, and Gregoire is certainly a feminist). Unfortunately there are a number of men (likely low T themselves or with otherwise atypical sexualities for men) who will back them up with psycho-babble designed to obfuscate an underlying reality which is reflected in virtually the entirety of human experience across all cultures and timeframes.

        Liked by 4 people

    • cameron232 says:

      Also Ame, most women give their most precious gift, their virginity, to a man, not their husband, who is presumed (reasonably so) to be in the “want to f_ck” category. As some women like to say, “you never forget your first.”

      Realistically, knowlege of this probably increases her future husband’s craving for validational (for him) desire sex which usually isn’t forthcoming. God wants women to remain chaste – for good reasons.

      Liked by 2 people

  7. professorGBFMtm2021 says:

    EVERBODY,
    Most of you understand I’m not the original GBFMtm right?Like I told you on my first comment that ”I’ve been knowing about most of you since march/april 2012”you thought I was kidding?NO!I was GBFMtm’s biggest fan that he did’nt know about!You people have literaly been more like friends&family to myself than my real extended family ever has!I’m only bringing this up because one of you we’re confused over it!I ‘am heavily like GBFMtm in that I don’t harm anyone on here or in RL& mentaly dance to my own beat in life!But that is beside the point!Here me going off about BUTTHEXINGS or NEOCON WEALTHTRANSFERS or LOLZZ… or telling JACK to ”EXALT THE WORDS OF MOSES&JESUS”?Diffirent guy thats why ,as I have already told &showed you on here & elsewhere(namelySHARKLY,LEXETBLOG&ELSPETH)
    Actualy with my latest funloving comment on RATIONALMALE!I think I will mainly be going silent now!I have been having so much fun on the MANOSPHERE over the last 3? days!I have mainly gotten over my long-term(since1986!) depression enough that I’m getting up around 7:30am(I go to sleep around 2:30AM most nights!thats right 4 hours of sleep!) for the first-time since my mother died over a year ago!That’s how good all of everybodys work on the MANOSPHERE can be!Keep it up everybody!You matter more than you think you do!If I’m out here ,how many others have all of you helped over the years?P.S.Don’t all of you wish we could have a big DALROCKIAN REUNION?

    Liked by 2 people

  8. redpillboomer says:

    “… most women give their most precious gift, their virginity, to a man, not their husband, who is presumed (reasonably so) to be in the “want to f_ck” category. As some women like to say, “you never forget your first.”
    I’d amend this to say they never forget that first Alpha f ck. I’ve had several tell me their first time as a teen was ‘so bad’ that they thought, “What is the big deal about sex? Why the all the fuss? That wasn’t anything good at all.” However, that first Alpha f ck was the difference maker. I had one female confide in me that she had sex with a star player on the UGA football team when she was an incoming freshman. This guy went on to play in the NFL, he long ago forgot about her (after all he probably banged numerous nubiles on campus while he was there for three years), BUT she never forgot about him! Her teenage liaison where she lost her virginity was in her words “miserable for her, just terrible sex.” Now 31, any Beta who wife’s her up expecting to pair bond will have to contend not only with her high N-count (easily double digit), but the ‘unforgettable UGA star.’ Can anyone say Alpha Widow?

    Liked by 4 people

    • locustsplease says:

      My ex-wife’s best friend (when we met) lost her v card to her college boyfriend who was nominated for, but didn’t win the Heisman trophy. No, I can’t tell you the school, but it was in the 90s. I swear to god on my life. While I didn’t know about Red Pill (at that time), I was never a simp, and this set big red flags. At the time, I just couldn’t identify why. The widow was just looking for a nice white collar gentle man. Haha!

      Its hard to think about how rare of an alpha that is. There are millions of college students. You could show up at a rivals campus and get laid. That is in the top 5 best college football players in the country. Its 6.5x rarer than being a first round draft pick. And oh my! You should have heard them swoon their mouths were literally watering.

      I didn’t understand alpha widow behavior at the time. It was just another disgusting female behavior thing I didn’t want to see again. I thought, I’ve got to wade thru sh-t occasionally. Some day its gonna end, but until then, its just amplifying.

      Liked by 4 people

    • cameron232 says:

      While I agree with you, I think what I was getting at was her future husband’s perceptions, not her recollection of her experience(s) or the actual reality of her experiences. The husband craves the desire that he reasonably doubts is there.

      We are seeing this (probably) right now with a current couple we know where I strongly suspect that the wife’s sexual offers are either “duty” sex or validational (for her) sex and the husband wants what he cannot have (her desire). It’s hard to say since people only tell you so much.

      IMO, it’s best to marry your HS sweetheart since most girls go wild in college.

      Like

      • Novaseeker says:

        it’s best to marry your HS sweetheart

        This assumes that there is one.

        I had 2 HS girlfriends, neither of one was a “sweetheart” in truth (college broke up both relationships … first one was her dumping me when she went to college and then the following year, the next one dumped me when I went to college (not the one she wanted)). That was way ahead of the curve in the guys I knew. My two closest friends didn’t date anyone until after college (not attractive enough … they asked). My bandmates (I mean these are freaking guys in a garage rock band!) … 5 of us, 2 never had a GF in HS, one did about as well as me, and one was a ladies man type (had GFs and other encounters that didn’t rise to level of “GF” but were … intimate). The guys the next level up did about as well as me (occasional GF, but mostly dry spell).

        For a lot of guys the “marry the HS sweetheart” doesn’t pencil because there isn’t one.

        Liked by 4 people

      • Elspeth says:

        Yep. I went throughout high school without ever going on a date, a boyfriend, a kiss. Nothing.

        Nope. Wasn’t hideous. Several boys -I learned later as adults- had varying degrees of crushes on me.

        But my dad wasn’t having it. I was under guard, lol.

        Not everyone has a HS sweetheart. None of my kids did either.

        Liked by 3 people

      • cameron232 says:

        Yeah, I didn’t mean “here’s an easy solution guys!” I just mean there’s something about getting together young if that’s an option. I think it’s best when the guys a bit older.

        I first came in contact with her my senior year (she’s younger) but we didn’t become a thing until well after I graduated and was attending the local 13th grade. I graduated HS younger than most so I was still a teenager. I didn’t’ have a girlfriend in HS.

        We know a few other couples that made the HS sweetheart thing work and appear to have good marriages but it’s not real common.

        Liked by 3 people

      • thedeti says:

        Elspeth:

        Yep. I went throughout high school without ever going on a date, a boyfriend, a kiss. Nothing.

        Nope. Wasn’t hideous. Several boys -I learned later as adults- had varying degrees of crushes on me.

        It’s not the same. Not anywhere close to the same. Because…..

        But my dad wasn’t having it. I was under guard, lol.

        The reason you didn’t date was because your father wouldn’t let you. Not because men didn’t want to date, and not even because YOU didn’t want to date. If you had wanted to and your dad allowed it, you could, and you would. This is not men’s experience at all.

        Not everyone has a HS sweetheart. None of my kids did either.

        You have five girls who SAM guards like a German shepherd himself.

        It is not the same for girls.

        Liked by 2 people

      • cameron232 says:

        @thedeti,

        This can be a blind spot for women (even women with empathy for men) in terms of relating to men. Before I met my wife, no one wanted me. My wife describes the same feeling: “my friends were dating…. I wasn’t …. I wondered what was wrong with me”

        In reality, she had some IoIs that she rejected. Yes, women generally don’t understand.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Scott says:

        Cameron, Deti-

        When I try to describe for my wife the despair I have encountered during my several “dry spells” between LTRs, she looks at me like I have 3 heads.

        As loving and sweet as she is, she has never experienced this and just can’t relate.

        Liked by 2 people

      • thedeti says:

        In general, men are much better at understanding women’s dating problems, than women are at understanding men’s dating problems. Granted, I don’t feel the emotions women feel, but I understand it on an intellectual logical level.

        I know that women’s primary dilemmas are

        1) “The men I want, don’t want me. I can’t get rid of the unattractive men who want me”

        Put another way:

        “The attractive men I want won’t stay with me and aren’t relationship material. The men who will stay with me and who are relationship material are unattractive men who I don’t want.”

        2) “If I have sex with this attractive man now, I run the risk that he’ll pump and dump me. But if I don’t have sex with him now, someone else will. So now I have to do the risk/benefit analysis.

        “I’ll go ahead and have sex with him on the longshot hope that he likes me, or likes the sex, well enough to stick around. Or, I will not have sex with him, but my best bud Becky will, and then I definitely lose out. You lose 100% of the shots you don’t take; but if I take the shot and make the basket, what does that really get me in the long run?”

        (And this is actually more mental energy than most women expend on this.)

        3) Risk of pregnancy/STDs/reputation loss. These risks have been reduced to near zero. But, women still state these as deterrents. Yes, if she gets knocked up, ultimately she will deal with all the consequences. (Women of my vintage understood this keenly). It’s a lot easier for women to contract an STD than it is for men.

        Women still fear slut shaming; it’s just that they wrongly blame it on men, when women are far, far more brutal and vicious about slut shaming than men ever could be. And that’s how friends slut shame each other.

        I understand this on an intellectual level and just articulated them. How many women could even so much as IDENTIFY men’s dating problems, much less explicate them with any eloquence at all?

        Liked by 2 people

  9. Elspeth says:

    I think the point we’re making Cameron, at least it seems that way to me, is that people having “high school sweethearts” is even less common now that it was for Gen X (my generation). Our generation probably dated -the way many people view dating now- more than any other generation, and still not all of us had high school sweethearts.

    My first date was my senior prom, and my older brother, while not my date, was something of a chaperone. I was asked out by a mildly popular boy on the football team who was friends with my brother. My father said, “We’ll see, Maybe.” And that only because he knew the boy’s father well. The solution? The girl who lived next door had NOT been asked. My brother, 19, was directed to ask her, so she’d have a date, we could double date, and I wouldn’t be wandering around with a boy without eyes on me.

    I did date that boy the summer after graduation, but he went off to college to play football, I went to Local U., and that was that. I didn’t date for two years after that, not for lack of opportunity, and I wasn’t an “alpha widow” either.. A friend introduced me to SAM, he made me knees weak (literally, and not in the wrong use of that word. I mean literally), and that was that.

    Couples should try and get together young, which we did. Some people thought we were too young, including my late FIL. Even with our youth, he brought a fair amount of baggage to the marriage that we had to unpack. I did too, but it was mostly of the feminine insecure neuroticism variety, which is baggage with lots of hidden compartments.

    And then off course, there are at least three commenters here who did al the stuff. Married the N=0 while she was young and “mold-able” and all he things. They all ended up divorced. We humans love formulas because they make us feel in control.

    The reality is that 1) love is a choice, and 2) there are kinds of variables that pop up in a relationship. Some are good, some are not so good, but at the end of the day the secret to a successful marriage is number 1, understanding that love is a choice. And probably even more importantly, understanding what love is so you don’t make wrong choices based on an irreparably flawed definition of love.

    Liked by 2 people

    • cameron232 says:

      Only one of my kids so far has gone to a real high school. The two others that are HS age are in a Montessori school and homeschooled. From my son’s tales, the landscape hasn’t changed. Guys who are jerks date the girls while plotting to dump them right after graduation and the nice guys finish last.

      I think it’s useful to look for patterns to inform how we do things. Sure, love is a choice, teach your children that. Still, patterns are useful for understanding the world – they don’t have to turn into formulas.

      Was going to include head cropped out senior prom picture but I can’t figure out how to add a picture here – dang I”m old and techno-illiterate!

      Liked by 1 person

      • Novaseeker says:

        Guys who are jerks date the girls while plotting to dump them right after graduation and the nice guys finish last.

        It’s also just that dating in general is not that common. My son was a football player in HS, and in great shape, quite an attractive young man. One GF in HS that lasted about 4 months. Otherwise, zilch. The other boys weren’t dating at all. There was hooking up with the most popular boys, yes, but not much dating. DC area so maybe everyone is just cynical from the time they are 2 years old here, dunno.

        Was going to include head cropped out senior prom picture but I can’t figure out how to add a picture here – dang I”m old and techno-illiterate!

        You need to place the picture on a photo hosting site, and then link to it.

        Liked by 3 people

      • Elspeth says:

        I understand what you’re saying Cameron, and I don’t fully disagree. One of the things I know my friends and family tire of hearing me saying is, “Look. Without generalizations it is impossible for us to have effective communication.” You know, because everyone knows an exception to every rule these days. It makes it hard to say anything definitively without an objection being raised. But the reality is that exceptions exist, and they aren’t even particularly rare, when we’re paying attention.

        Human beings are predictable in many ways, and in others, we can really throw a curve ball into what someone thinks they know about human beings. It’s the God factor, and that divine image bearing nature means that we can change, we can grow, we can learn, we can buck trends and do better. All of that is true, so we have to take it into account. To fail to do so and rely on patterns even when we have ample evidence to suggest that a thing doesn’t fit the pattern, it to operate as automatons and not rational, tri-part humans.

        Liked by 2 people

    • cameron232 says:

      I think for me this is such a big mystery: why did I get such a good relationship?

      I don’t feel like I deserve it, that there’s anything about me (attractiveness, success etc.) that made it inevitable. Her background of abuse and her mother’s awful example, makes it even less likely. Statistically, it shouldn’t have worked. I’m not exaggerating when I say I’m treated like an object of desire/affection – I’m treated like an alpha by her. I’m anything but. Where did this come from?

      And then what can I do to help my sons get a girl like mama?

      Liked by 2 people

      • Elspeth says:

        @ Cameron:

        Why? Providence.

        I suspect for the first 15 years of our marriage my husband would have easily pronounced that he got a great marriage because why would a man like him NOT have a great marriage? Duh! Confidence flows in abundance among the men in his family. Of course, my dad was like that too, though.

        But now, as a strong Christian with an understanding of how much he doesn’t deserve the life we have enjoyed, he would say, “God’s grace, and the fact that we were willing to work at it. It’s not free.”

        I don’t know how your sons get a girl like their mother anymore than I know how my girls get a guy like their dad. The last two decades of cultural indoctrination and the rapid increase in societal rot runs deep, and we may have to face a reality that we’d rather not:

        “It rains on the just as well as the unjust.”

        Like

      • Ame says:

        That’s a tough question. I did everything ‘right,’ and my first Husband still made terrible choices.

        If I’d have had a father like Elspeth’s would he have caught things? I always wonder. My parents never knew who I was with or where I was and I never had a curfew – it’s truly a miracle I made it out as unscathed as I did.

        One of my sister’s had friends in high places on the dark side – not good, but she was protected by then and could go anywhere in florida at anytime of day or night and all the other bad people knew not to touch her. Our brother got into all kinds of nefarious stuff.

        And then there’s a totally different consideration … I believe God allows things though I do not even begin to comprehend that, but what if what I’ve been through is not about me? What if God has allowed it to put me in places I would never have otherwise gone to reach people here, in these places, for Him?

        Am I willing to acknowledge God might want to do something similar with my daughters?

        This does NOT mean I shouldn’t be diligent, that I should be flippant, etc … Just another perspective.

        Believer’s are to be the light of Jesus in a dark world; how does God get certain of His lights into those dark places?

        Liked by 3 people

      • Oscar says:

        @ Ame

        I did everything ‘right,’ and my first Husband still made terrible choices.

        It’s possible to make no mistakes and still lose. It’s rare, but it does happen. We live in a sinful world full of sinful people, including ourselves.

        It’s also possible to do everything wrong, and come out on top. Again, it’s rare, but it does happen. We have a gracious God who “sends rain on the just and the unjust alike” (Matthew 5:45).

        Ultimately, the only thing God owes any of us is judgement, because that’s all we’ve earned. Every day He withholds judgement from us is one more day of mercy. Every blessing He bestows on us above and beyond judgement is evidence of His grace.

        We don’t understand why God distributes His grace the way He does, and frankly, it’s none of our business. Our business is to trust, and obey Him where, and whenever He placed us.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Ame says:

        i agree, Oscar.

        not saying, and have never said, that i was a perfect wife all the time and that i didn’t make my fair share of mistakes.

        i did not make divorce-level mistakes – i was always available to him, i tried to honor and respect and submit to him the best i knew how and was continuously learning and growing in these areas, i stayed true to him and didn’t stray though i have ample opportunity – all of which he knew about b/c i told him (though, i find it odd that he never did anything about it, esp when a couple of the men who hit of me quite blatantly were ‘friends.’)

        i prayed for him fervently – i was told that i a woman could draw her husband to God thru prayer, it would have been me. he was a PK and professing christian, but his addiction took him to bad places.

        even after i learned about the prostitutes and dealt with it (2.5 years of intense therapy) i still chose to stay married to him. i was told i’d have to decide how i wanted to be single – either single and married, or single and divorced. i said i could not divorce him, so it would have to be single and married (we were separated for a year in those 2.5 yrs).

        i had no good models to follow, and i knew that, so i read and listened to everything i could get my hands on and adapted and adjusted.

        i always asked him what he wanted and it was EXTREMELY rare that he would tell me, so i had to guess – it was always damned if i do and damned if i don’t. i’d do something one way, and he’d get angry. next time i’d do it the other way, and he’d get angry. we never knew when he’d blow up – he was a continuous time bomb. some things he would never ever comment on what he liked and preferred, so i had to guess.

        there were people close to us who were deeply fearful for the lives of my daughters and myself. i wasn’t nearly as concerned, though as time passes, i can see their concern. he was the type who could have taken us all out methodically when in the dark phases of his addiction cycle.

        when things happen now as a result of all of that, and i get sad and sorrowful about it, my daughters are the first to support me. they always say things like, “Mom! He was my Dad! I knew him! There was NOTHING you could have done! You did EVERYTHING possible! And you protected and took care of US!”

        he had a good side and a dark side. when he was good, there wasn’t anyone better, but when he was dark, he was very evil. there were times i’d look at him in the eyes, and he wasn’t there; evil had taken over. one time i said to him casually, “You know, you’ve opened a window and given Satan free access to our home.” and he replied without emotion, “I know.”

        we lost our church, i lost most of my friends, i had close friends stab me in the back, we lost our house, and after a year or so he lost his job, took me back to court, sued me for custody, and got child support and spousal support removed. and, when he died, he left nothing for his daughters – he beneficiaried everything to his parents and brother.

        BUT!!! we ALWAYS had GOD!!! on the advice of a counselor i pulled in a group of about ten ladies whom i kept updated at least weekly who prayed fervently for us – man of them shared the emails with their husbands, and they prayed for us, too.

        i had begun praying, quite innocently, when Oldest was born that God would protect her from all forms of evil, and i continued the same with Aspie-Girl when she was born … and, WOW! He did! there is SO much they don’t remember and have no emotional feelings from – like they don’t have any emotional or body memories of the evil in our home (and there were times it was quite prevalent and caused all sorts of ill on my girls and me).

        we left the church b/c someone was crying after church every sunday, and i didn’t want my daughters to think of God that way … so i separated God from church people, and my daughters never even once turned from Jesus – they both love Jesus fervently! Praise Jesus!!!

        they have both completely forgiven their dad for all that he did, and he did a lot of terrible things that they do remember – many of which he did to them after the divorce and which caused severe consequences in both my daughters.

        we can talk about him and laugh about him and tell the truth about him as though we’re talking about anything.

        and they’ve learned both good and bad from him – i forced them to see him as he was, not as they wanted to remember.

        NOT saying it’s been easy and all rainbows and flowers, not saying there wasn’t a cost in each of our lives – some areas more severe and life-lasting than others …

        what i am saying is that God has never left us. not once. not even when we thought He had. and what i am saying is that the three of us are VERY close and my daughters have a deep, forever respect and protective love for me 🙂

        we’ve come to see his life as a tragedy. he didn’t have to make the continuous choices he did. he had an enormous amount of support, especially from the three of us. we lived in an area where he had every possible service available to him and every possible support available to him, and though he tried it all for a couple years, he finally ditched every bit of it.

        when he died, he had been being SO bad to our daughters and causing such severe pain in their lives, that many who had been praying for us, who didn’t even know each other, all said that God took him out … that God decided He wasn’t going to let him hurt these babies anymore. interestingly, both my daughters came to this same conclusion on their own at different times.

        Liked by 3 people

    • thedeti says:

      1) love is a choice

      No. The decision to marry is a choice. The decision to stay with the one you married is a choice. Those decisions may or may not culminate in love, but it is not the kind of “love” that most men want or that rewards them. It’s the kind of love that serves women, not men.

      Sexual attraction is not a choice. A crappy sex life is not usually a choice. It is almost always thrust on a man against his will.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Elspeth says:

        I have to disagree deti. Love is a choice, which is why I made the explicit statement that the first thing we need to do is make sure we understand what the meaning of love is. When I say love, I mean 1 Cor. 13:

        Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

        These are actions and choices we make. The warm fuzzy, infatuation feelings? no, those are not a choice. I agree.

        But you guys are always the ones insisting that the vast majority of women are incapable of visceral attraction to their husbands. If that is the case, and these Christian marriages have any chance of enduring and producing any level of contentment, then expectations will need to be calibrated.

        Real, biblical love, sexual availability and keeping to Biblical commands regarding marriage can go a long way towards people having successful marriages.

        If it has never been historically so that women were head over heels sexually for their husbands, then using that as the definitive baseline for a marriage that a man can be happy in, then we’re basically saying there’s no such thing the possibility of a happy marriage for 75% of men.

        That sounds depressing….

        Like

      • thedeti says:

        If it has never been historically so that women were head over heels sexually for their husbands, then using that as the definitive baseline for a marriage that a man can be happy in, then we’re basically saying there’s no such thing the possibility of a happy marriage for 75% of men.

        Tell us about it. Women aren’t suffering. Men are.

        It’s not men’s fault that head over heels sexually is the standard now. I didn’t ask for this. Don’t talk to me about it. Tell women about it. It’s on them, not us.

        I Cor. 13 is what men do for women. Not what women do for men. Men love women, women respect men. And women do not respect men.

        You women want to “love” men? HERE is what women are expected to do for men. Eph. 5:22-24:

        Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

        I Peter 3:1-5

        Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2 when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 3 Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes. 4 Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight. 5 For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their own husbands, 6 like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord.

        Submit to your husbands. He is your head. Submit to him in everything. Everything means exactly what it says – everything. Every. Thing. Not some things, not most things. EVERYTHING. Not when you want to, not when you feel like it, not when you agree with it, not when it makes sense. All the time, without fail. Purity. Reverence. Inner beauty. Gentle quiet spirit. Submit to your own husbands.

        That is how a woman is supposed to “love” her man. And, yes, I’ll agree, they’re supposed to do that by choice. A man really cannot force a wife to submit. All he can do is simply withdraw his love, protection, and provision. Much as God will do when we will not submit. He does not force us to submit to Him or obey Him. He simply leaves us to our own devices.

        I don’t care about not keeping score. I don’t need her to protect or hope. I need her to submit, respect, and obey. I need for her to do what I ask, when I ask it, how I ask it. I would like her to do it nicely and kindly and reverently and with a gentle and contrite heart. And with a little fear. Not that I’ll beat her or abuse her, but that I’ll be disappointed or displeased. A wife should always want to please her man and should try to avoid displeasing or disappointing him.

        Most of all, I need her to WANT to respect me. I need her to CHOOSE it.

        If she does so grudgingly, I don’t want it, and I don’t want her. Too many women do it grudgingly. They don’t give a s**t if their husbands are disappointed or displeased. They’re doing it “cuz the Bible tells me so” and “I’ll do it, but only if I like it and agree with it and if my Holy Spirit says it’s OK, otherwise I’m going to our pastor and he will tell my husband he can’t do that and our pastor will act as the court of review over Husband’s decisions because I don’t have to submit to him if I think he’s doing something unGodly or he’s not prayed up or he’s not going to Church or whatever else he’s doing or not doing that I don’t like.”

        THAT is the state of most “Christian” marriages today.

        Liked by 1 person

      • thedeti says:

        Everyone here should go to Kevin Samuels’ YouTube channel and watch the women he counsels there. You want to see hamsters running at light speed, he’s got them. I mean, the absolute insanity these women foist on themselves and everyone around them has to be seen and heard to be believed. These women have no idea whatsoever about men, who men are, what they want, what they need, or even about themselves. It’s utter insanity and it’s why we are where we are today.

        Like

  10. redpillboomer says:

    “And then off course, there are at least three commenters here who did al the stuff. Married the N=0 while she was young and “mold-able” and all he things. They all ended up divorced. We humans love formulas because they make us feel in control.”
    Yes. There is no ‘formula’ to make it foolproof. The best we have is to get as close to the Biblical model as possible and then let God work in and through the marriage to make it work out. I had what the manosphere refers to as the ‘right formula.’ I was 30, N=5 (not too low so I had ‘experience,’ yet not too high where I could only see females as the ‘next lay.’) My wife was 21, almost 22, N=0, in part because her father was ill dying of brain cancer and she had to take care of him since her mother was pretty much useless as a caretaker. Fortunately, we were both Christians by then; she since a young girl, and me since close my to mid-twenties (23-24) when I was led to Christ. Here’s the point, and it speaks to what Elspeth said, my marriage was on the rocks twice in the first ten years, the second, right on the verge of separation for sure, more than likely divorce if it had kept going the way it was. But God did a work, and we got through it 32 years and two kids later, still doing well. Not a brag, but when I look back, I can clearly see it was God who salvaged the relationship, not me or her (Ecclesiastes I believe: “A chord of three strands is hard to break.”). We played a part with a degree of obedience, like learning to start doing things more in line with Ephesians 5 and less in line with what the world says. It slowly began right itself and to work out; took about two years or so. So yes, there is no formula, but I do believe any couple, Christian or secular, who gets as close to Biblical model as possible has a fighting chance, even in this day and age. So many forces out there trying to tear it down, it’s a miracle any marriage lasts 20-30-40 years or more in these times.

    Liked by 3 people

  11. Scott says:

    And then off course, there are at least three commenters here who did al the stuff. Married the N=0 while she was young and “mold-able” and all he things. They all ended up divorced.

    In my case, It had a disastrous effect on my faith and cast a long shadow of second and third order effects on everything about my life even today.

    Liked by 6 people

  12. Elspeth says:

    @ Deti:

    You’re operating on the assumption that everything you’ve written about the dilemmas women face are accurate. Funny the confidence you have in that exposition without having the slightest possible idea of what it feels like to be a woman.

    Some of what you wrote I could relate to, but other parts of it are as foreign to me as a Martian life form. And I am 100% totally cis female.

    All I have to go on, really, is what my dad allowed to slip, what I saw of his experiences as a widower for 9 years, and what my husband has told me. That, and what I’ve witnessed. It’s a limited sample, and I readily admit that I have no idea what it feels like to be a man and all the struggles of maleness or masculinity.

    Like

    • thedeti says:

      Elspeth

      Funny the confidence you have in that exposition without having the slightest possible idea of what it feels like to be a woman.

      Stop right there. The “feels like” part is not what I’m talking about. I did not say anything about women’s feelings. I didn’t get that far because that doesn’t concern me and I know I can’t have any idea what those dilemmas FEEL like. I don’t care what they FEEL like. I cared about identifying them, in an intellectual, unemotional manner, because in that way we can get to the truth about them and not get all mixed up in feelings.

      I want to know the truth. I want to know facts. I can’t do anything with feelings, especially women’s feelings.

      I’ve been learning, studying and writing about these issues for almost 10 years. I’ve probably got the equivalent of a BA in sociology now, with all the reading I’ve done.

      What I wrote up there are what I have seen and heard hundreds of women talk and write about, and not just on the internet. I’m very confident that when it comes to dating and sex, those problems are what most concern women – including Christian women. Especially that first one. Women are wailing to high heaven, all over the place, about how they’re sick of unattractive men orbiting them and they can’t get attractive men to do anything more than demand sex right now.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Ame says:

        “I can’t do anything with feelings, especially women’s feelings.”

        LOL!

        We can hardly do anything with our feelings, either! 😂

        Liked by 2 people

    • cameron232 says:

      You’re a unicorn. I told you that. The fact that you’re here (imperfectly) empathizing with men shows you’re atypical. The dilemmas thedeti describes are typical of contemporary women, even if not universal. How do we know? Because women say so and their actions are consistent with this too.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Elspeth says:

        I am NOT a unicorn. That’s all I have to say about that can ‘o’ worms.

        2.@ deti: I shouldn’t have used the word. “feelings”. I was rushing and shortcutted because I have to shove off for today.

        My point was that just like you I’ve been musing on all of this for several years. I still can’t fully appreciate the masculine experience. And YOU can never full appreciate the female experience.

        No matter how much we read, see and know, there is an uncrossable chasm there. For both of us.

        Like

      • thedeti says:

        For the purposes of this particular discussion, I don’t care about “the female experience”. You’re still mired in feelings.

        I care about what the actual dilemmas are, not how anyone feels about them. I care about what women are saying and demonstrating are the problems they have. I care about what I am seeing and hearing. I care about facts and truth. I don’t care how women experience facts and truth.

        Facts don’t care about our feelings. Facts are facts, regardless of how we feel about them. The truth is the truth, regardless of how we feel about it. I care about what those facts ARE. I care about what the truth is. I don’t care how people feel about those facts. For the purposes of this particular discussion, I don’t care how people internally experience facts and truth.

        Like

      • Elspeth says:

        This is probably the last you’ll hear from me for today, but I have to say Deti, that I was NOT the one who started the talk about feelings.

        The guys started the talk about how some of the dating pitfalls, dry spells, etc made them feel. The inability for a woman to understand their experiences. Go re-read. It’s there.

        I can totally understand the propensity to dismiss (at least somewhat) a woman going on about feelings. Lord knows we’ve done enough damage following our feelings.

        But let’s be fair when doling out our pronouncements, ok?

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        As a very young woman, you married a man with alpha attractive features AND dad features. You married a male unicorn. I am very happy for you in all this.

        We look at what women are saying (sometimes in barely coded language and sometimes not coded at all). Empowered women have nothing to be afraid of and spill the beans now all the time. We look at what women do. We look at what it does to men and marriages and we tell the truth about it.

        I’m sure deti’s listing of the female predicament is incomplete. It’s still true.

        Liked by 1 person

      • thedeti says:

        E

        You’re a unicorn in that you have what at least 80% of women do not: A man she’s so insanely sexually attracted to she can barely see straight.

        Most women don’t have that. Lack of sexual attraction from wife to husband is the single biggest problem in marriage today, and has been for the past 40 years. It is the single biggest factor causing marital breakdown today. It shows no signs of subsiding. It is this way mainly because most men just don’t cut it with women today. Most men do not inspire feelings of sexual attraction.

        We’ve pretty well established in the manosphere that the only way to have a successful marriage today is that wife must be immediately and irretrievably sexually attracted to her husband, literally from the first time she ever laid eyes on him. She has to be so sexually attracted to him she literally can’t think straight. If it is not there from the beginning it will never be there. It has to arise organically. It cannot be created. There is NOTHING a man can do to create it. All he can do is what I did: Make leaving so painful that staying is the better option.

        All the successful marriages in the manosphere have the defining feature of wife is really, really, REALLY viscerally hard attracted to husband. At least, “successful” from the man’s perspective, which is every last bit as important as what women think is “success”.

        Liked by 2 people

      • thedeti says:

        E:

        Everything you’ve said in your comment is true. But it has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

        This is probably the last you’ll hear from me for today, but I have to say Deti, that I was NOT the one who started the talk about feelings.

        The guys started the talk about how some of the dating pitfalls, dry spells, etc made them feel. The inability for a woman to understand their experiences. Go re-read. It’s there.

        Maybe, but that subthread is irrelevant to this particular subthread and topic. I acknowledge that men cannot understand women’s feelings or experiences. I acknowledge that men cannot understand how women internally experience facts and truth. I don’t care. I care about facts and truth.

        I can totally understand the propensity to dismiss (at least somewhat) a woman going on about feelings. Lord knows we’ve done enough damage following our feelings.

        But let’s be fair when doling out our pronouncements, ok?

        Men talking about their feelings here doesn’t have anything to do with what I was talking about.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        “You’re a unicorn in that you have what at least 80% of women do not: A man she’s so insanely sexually attracted to she can barely see straight.
        Most women don’t have that. Lack of sexual attraction from wife to husband is the single biggest problem in marriage today, and has been for the past 40 years. It is the single biggest factor causing marital breakdown today. It shows no signs of subsiding. It is this way mainly because most men just don’t cut it with women today. Most men do not inspire feelings of sexual attraction.”

        It’s a real problem for sure. My wife has been in Christian mom groups for 20 years now (various denominations, all “conservative” or whatever.) It is very common for women in those groups to tell her they are not interested in sex with their husbands. It is never for abuse or because he’s a jerk that doesn’t meet her emotional needs. She tries to light-heartedly counsel them: “girl, you need to get yours!” but doesn’t seem to have much success with them. These are not middle-aged women, these are mostly young women. Not medical issues. These are not women whose complaint is that he’s a sex fiend who wants it constantly. They don’t want to have sex with their husbands. I imagine many of them do the “duty sex” thing – I’m sure they’re shocked when hubby is watching porn or messing with other women.

        They are also constantly complaining about petty crap. “My husband left whiskers on the bathroom sink.” She tries to remind them of all the women who wish they had a man to leave his whiskers on the sink. Sometimes she gets through with this line, sometimes not.

        Liked by 3 people

    • thedeti says:

      We look at what women are saying (sometimes in barely coded language and sometimes not coded at all). Empowered women have nothing to be afraid of and spill the beans now all the time. We look at what women do. We look at what it does to men and marriages and we tell the truth about it.

      The prime reason for the disconnect here, I think, is the way men and women approach these issues.

      Men tend to take it apart, deconstruct it, reverse engineer it, and analyze its component parts to understand it. Then, once we understand it, we put it back together and then try to use it. Women tend to observe it all together, identify how they can use it, and talk about how they experience using it.

      For men, it’s about understanding all the component parts and how they work together. For women, it’s all mishmashed together and understood as a choate whole. Women don’t need to deconstruct it. They don’t need an owner’s manual. All they need is someone to show them, once, how to use it. That’s all they need to know. Women have literally the whole world at their disposal to show and instruct them on how to use it. Men don’t.

      Most men are not like manosphere men. Most men went through this mental exercise as young boys without “showing their work”, as it were. Most men worked through it in their heads, and then went about using it as best they can.

      Liked by 1 person

      • redpillboomer says:

        “Most men are not like manosphere men. Most men went through this mental exercise as young boys without “showing their work”, as it were. Most men worked through it in their heads, and then went about using it as best they can.”
        And most of us went through this in the pre-manospherian era having to figure it out from what the ‘school of hard knocks’ was teaching us. Heck, I’m still learning it. Albeit, I’m older, hopefully a lot wiser, and a lot of what I’m learning, I look back on my past and go, “Oh, so that’s why that worked out the way it did. That’s what was going on there. I really get it now.” What I’ve learned the last three years since taking the Red Pill has been incredibly enlightening. It’s helped me in my marriage a lot and helped me in my relations with women and men in all walks of life. I can now listen to younger men, 20s-40s, and get what they are dealing with. Admittedly, sometimes I cringe when I hear their current stories with women because they are so Blue Pill. These guys have some Alpha qualities, Beta qualities, Gamma qualities–whatever letters you use-in one big mishmash coupled with whatever socially constructed upbringing they’ve had. I try to help them the best I can, but it is very difficult to get through to them without them having taken the Red Pill. I do my best to help them subtly, but damn it’s not easy at all. You want to say ‘just let them learn it for themselves,’ aka school of hard knocks, and yes, that is ultimately what you have to let them do; however they are also swimming in more ‘dangerous waters’ than I did back in the late eighties. I feel for them. We had it a bit rough back then, but nothing like these young men do now. Thankfully, they have access to this plethora of information in the Manosphere (some good, some bad, some just plain crap), if they can just reach a place where they can hear it, digest it, observe/test it out in the real world, and adjust accordingly, they’ll have a fighting chance. Still, the WWI trench warfare illustration, soldiers crawling through the mud of no-mans land with machine gun fire rainind down on them comes to mind as a metaphor for what the young men are dealing with nowadays. Getting tougher on the girls too from what I gather in the last few years with the way things have been evolving between the sexes. It seem like the ladies AF/BB strategy of the last 2-3 decades is breaking down a lot more now judging by the amount of whining and complaining coming from the fairer sex.

        Like

  13. Elspeth says:

    I Cor. 13 is what men do for women. Not what women do for men. Men love women, women respect men. And women do not respect men.

    No. No. No. No. NO.

    1 Corinthians 13 is the standard of love as commanded of all believers, male and female. And I try to remain silent in the face of all the insistence that men are extra loyal, men love women of so well, etc. I do that despite all my life knowing more men than I can count on my hands who cheat on wives, abuse wives. etc. And it’s not always the woman’s fault anymore than it’s the man’s fault when women stray and behave treacherously.

    I usually stay silent on it because I fully recognize that in this particular citizenry, that is the way it usually goes. I know Christian, middle class men get kicked in the teeth by wives more readily, but can we stop pretending as if all men are loving their wives perfectly? Don’t tell me women aren’t suffering. I’ve watched them suffer despite pulling out all the stops to keep their men happy and fulfill his ever shifting demands.

    The current cultural paradigm bolsters women in their sins; Yes. It penalizes men legally and financially when women are unhappy; Yes. But let’s not get too hyperbolic with the claims of men suffering while women don’t. Now that I’ve gotten that out of the way…

    In my comment, I was quite clear that women MUST live according to Biblical commands as they relate to marriage and marital hierarchy. That includes Eph. 5, Titus 2, and 1 Peter 3. I didn’t quote all of that because I was focused only on clarifying what love is. Love is what love is no matter who we are, no matter our sex, and no matter our station in life.

    Your exegesis is horrible here.

    Like

  14. thedeti says:

    1 Corinthians 13 is the standard of love as commanded of all believers, male and female.

    Not in this instance. We are talking here about how husbands and wives are to relate to each other. Not how “men” and “women” are supposed to love each other. Come on E, you’re being disingenuous here. I am to love you and you are to love me as commanded in I Cor. 13. But you are not my wife, so I am not commanded to love you “as Christ loved the church” and you are not commanded to respect me “in every thing”. And we are not talking about phileo or agape. And you know that and I know you know that.

    Men are required to show a particular kind of love to their wives -sacrificial love, even unto death, “as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her”. I’m to love you according to I Cor. 13, but ain’t no way will I be nailed to a cross for you and I Cor 13 doesn’t require it. I’m to die for Mrs. deti, but I will not do it for any of you here. THAT is the love we’re talking about.

    can we stop pretending as if all men are loving their wives perfectly?

    I didn’t say that. But I do think men are doing a better job of love than women are of respect.

    Don’t tell me women aren’t suffering. I’ve watched them suffer despite pulling out all the stops to keep their men happy and fulfill his ever shifting demands.

    I am not going to do Oppression Olympics here. All I’ll say is if women suffer they have law, culture, society, and law enforcement protection on their side. Men have none of this. Men have to suffer. Women can avail themselves of all sorts of help to alleviate their suffering.

    And if expectations need to be calibrated, then it really will have to be women doing most of the calibrating.

    Like

    • Elspeth says:

      I think wives and husband are to love each other as commanded in the various marriage scriptures, but the 1 cor. 13 definition also applies. Those verses are how we are instructed on what love is and what it isn’t. To say it is irrelevant to this discussion is, in my opinion, to strip love of its many facets and its very essence.

      Imagine if wives learned not to seek their own way, not to keep a record of perceived wrongs (men are EXCELLENT at this by the way, even when y’all have actually been wronged), to be patient, kind, etc. And then to that, obedience to the Scripture’s commands for wives.

      That’s a recipe for a great marriage. Or at least a good one.

      Like

      • thedeti says:

        I Cor. 13 would be relevant if wives were commanded to love husbands.

        They aren’t.

        Like

      • Elspeth says:

        Yes we are commanded to love our husbands. See Titus 2.

        Gotta go now…

        Like

      • thedeti says:

        Nope. The context requires respect and submission:

        Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.

        Older women (older wives) are to be reverent (I.e. submissive).

        Younger women (younger wives) are to be subject to their husbands.

        The entire reason women aren’t commanded to love is because it comes more naturally to them. Wives have to be commanded to respect husbands because wives find it hard to do this. (Your desire shall be to rule over your husband, but he shall rule over you.)

        Like

      • Elspeth says:

        I literally cannot recall a time when I didn’t see my husband as someone I need to be worthy of.

        It came “naturally” to me. I am sure I am not the only wife like this.

        Love -as Scripture defines love- doesn’t come easy to women. Affection does, but that can be fickle.

        The Scriptural definition of love cannot be glossed over. I would argue that’s doing that is a huge part of how we got here.

        Like

      • thedeti says:

        I literally cannot recall a time when I didn’t see my husband as someone I need to be worthy of.

        Well OF COURSE NOT. By your own description, you’re married to a man you’re so incredibly sexually attracted to you can’t see straight.OF COURSE you feel that.

        Most women don’t feel that way about their husbands. I have been trying to get through to you on this for YEARS.

        It came “naturally” to me. I am sure I am not the only wife like this.

        OF COURSE it came naturally to you. By your own description, you’re married to a man you’re so incredibly sexually attracted to you can’t see straight. No, you’re not the only wife like this, but they’re rare. I am sure Mychael is one. I am sure Sunshine Mary is another. But to my knowledge…. that’s about it. Mrs deti didn’t start feeling that way about me until I threatened to end her ride on the Deti Gravy Train Express. THEN she started getting in line.

        Love -as Scripture defines love- doesn’t come easy to women. Affection does, but that can be fickle.

        From men’s viewpoint, and based on women’s outward conduct, what doesn’t come easy to women is RESPECT. Love comes easy. Respect and submission to husbands does not. It might feel to you like love doesn’t come easy.. but whatever you want to call it, it manifests to us men as respect. Again, the curse of Eve: Your desire shall be to your husband, but he shall rule over you. You ladies do not like men you’re not sexually attracted to ruling over you.

        The Scriptural definition of love cannot be glossed over. I would argue that’s doing that is a huge part of how we got here.

        No, what’s got us here is that you don’t understand how men see this. IT. IS. ABOUT. RESPECT. EVERYTHING is about respect for men. EVERYTHING.

        Like

      • Oscar says:

        @ deti

        Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children

        It’s right there. The fact that the older women are commanded to “urge the younger women to love their husbands” means that that women are commanded to love their husbands.

        Furthermore, all Christians are commanded to “love one another” (John 13:34-35, John 15:12, 7, Romans 12:10, and many more). There’s no exception there for wives. Then, there’s “love your neighbor as yourself” (Leviticus 19:18, Matthew 22:39, etc.). Your “neighbor” is the person closest to you, and there is no one closer to you than your spouse. Again, no exception for wives.

        Like

      • Elspeth says:

        Thank you, Oscar. I have never quite been able to figure out where the idea that “wives are not commanded to love their husbands” came from.

        The hierarchy of respect is in no way mutually exclusive from the command to love.

        Further, my husband would never be at peace with, “I have the utmost respect for you Babe, and I submit to you in everything, but I don’t really love you like that. Not really in love with you.”

        That would be like throwing a grenade smack dab in the middle of our bed.

        Like

      • thedeti says:

        I have never quite been able to figure out where the idea that “wives are not commanded to love their husbands” came from.

        I told you, several times. In addition, you’re not a man.

        “I have the utmost respect for you Babe, and I submit to you in everything, but I don’t really love you like that. Not really in love with you.”

        That’s a deliberate misrepresentation of what I said. I didn’t say women don’t love. I said they’re not COMMANDED to love because it comes naturally to them. They’re commanded to respect because they really bristle at respecting men.

        I’m done here. You’re being deliberately obtuse and you’re now twisting and distorting what I said to suit your own purposes. I know you know better than this.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Elspeth says:

        Fair enough. No need to keep fighting opposite currents in an uncross-able channel any longer than necessary.

        🙂

        Like

      • Elspeth says:

        Just thought you might find tjis amusing.

        I was talking to my brother yesterday and he hit me with this in response to a question:

        “You’re not a man. You don’t really get it.”

        😂

        Liked by 1 person

    • Elspeth says:

      No Oppression Olympics here. I’m loving my life and my marriage. I’m just injecting some reality here is all.

      Like

      • thedeti says:

        But we aren’t talking about your life and your marriage. You came here telling us about oppressed wives suffering at the hands of their evil husbands. I know that. We all do.

        The suffering of wives is trumpeted across every newspaper, every blog post, every radio and television broadcast, every minute of every hour of every day. Billions on billions of dollars are spent to alleviate their suffering. An entire multibillion dollar legal system has been devised to alleviate their suffering and then transfer money and property from men to women. An entire false theology has been created to justify women divorcing their husbands to alleviate their suffering.

        Like

  15. thedeti says:

    And it’s not always the woman’s fault anymore than it’s the man’s fault when women stray and behave treacherously.

    Wait. What now?

    No, I cant agree that if a woman strays and behaves treacherously, that the man is partially to blame for that. No. I can’t go there with you, not when women have full agency and are fully accountable to God for their own transgressions (see Gen 3 and 4). Eve sinned; Eve answered to God for it; Eve bore and bears the consequences in body and spirit for it.

    When a woman strays and behaves treacherously, that’s 100% on her. No one else.

    Like

    • Elspeth says:

      You misunderstood me. I said (or I thought I said) that it’s NOT the man’s fault if his wife strays anymore than it is HER fault if he strays.

      Like

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