We can’t plant seed in the middle of winter.

No community, no organization, no faith for the future… –> No go.

Readership: Christians
Length: 700 words
Reading Time: 2 minutes

Under the post, Is the Christian Red Pill a Black Pill? (2020 November 29), Nikolai Vladivostok wrote,

“From my secular perspective, it looks like a failure of game theory in the absence of social control. Men and women fall into a defect-defect pattern (as noted by Jim) and those few who still cooperate, lose. Especially when there’s a sex imbalance, as you point out.

I respect your view that Christian men should try to walk the line despite the odds. However, I wonder if there could also be a role for re-establising pro-family cultural norms. There are small groups within the West – Amish, Orthodox Jews, assorted cults – that manage to do this.

Or, if women and feminized men are so susceptible to media brainwashing, perhaps that avenue could be hacked to push them in another direction.”

This [statement in bold] is what the entire Christian Red Pill hopes and dreams for in their wildest fantasies. And the reasons it doesn’t happen are as numerous and complicated as the ocean is wide.

I tried to hone a workable list of what this might look like. I attempted to include as many different denominational/traditional world views and I got precisely zero other Manospherians, (who lament the lack such communities) to consider a very mild courtship proposition wherein children brought up in like-minded homes could at least be exposed to each other. No guarantees, no arranged marriages. Simple, wholesome introductions into a newly minted subculture with no weirdos, no purity rings, no perverts, just people who think family formation would be more likely under certain conditions.

Hence, another “black pill” consensus wherein the one thing everyone agrees on is that this re-establishing of bygone social norms (like knowing and really being involved in the lives of the people your kids marry) ain’t going to happen.

All over the Christian Manosphere (and most of those blogs are still up, with comments going back at least a decade and a half) was a weeping and gnashing of teeth, low level grumbling about what a culture that reinforces marriage and family formation would look like.

Everyone agree(d) that this remnant would have to rise from the ashes of the demolished culture and accomplish what Dalrock once called “saving the seeds of civilization while the fire rushes over the forest”.

But this nucleus, this hidden, silent group never materialized and those seeds are (maybe) being saved in individual families (like Elspeths?) and without interconnectedness and multiplying will be consumed by the fire as sure as I sit here today.

What good is it for me to read ancient texts and share ancient wisdom (“Things that We have Heard and Known” – the name of Cane Caldo’s blog) to 5 year olds in my house when no one within 1,000 miles is doing the same?  We’re all going to be a bunch of Yodas practicing a dead religion on a jungle island in one generation. But Luke will not be visiting to learn the ways of Christ and go slaughter the Cathedral.

So what should you do? Go to an American Heritage Girls troop?  Join an Amish community?  OK. The internet and our super cool jobs and gadgets are just too fun.

Richard Grannon (I will be critiquing a really interesting video he did recently) posed this rhetorical question almost flippantly, “Who has a value system that remains useful over multiple contexts?”, and that really struck me. I mean who, really?  I am like a chameleon in my public life. My true beliefs would get me shunned from the company of even those who call themselves “conservatives”.

HQ12~0.JPG Kliknij w obrazek, aby zamknąć okno | The village movie, Wedding  scene, Bryce dallas howard

So sure…  If we have about a bazillion dollars and want to buy a nature preserve like in the movie, “The Village” (2004), then can we can bring all our friends to start a commune?  That’s about the only option we have, as far as I can tell.

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This entry was posted in Building Wealth, Child Development, Choosing a Partner or Spouse, Collective Strength, Courtship and Marriage, Culture Wars, Determination, Education, Evangelism, Faith Community, Freedom, Personal Liberty, Headship and Patriarchy, Introspection, Maturity, Personal Growth and Development, Models of Failure, Models of Success, Organization and Structure, Purpose, Relationships, Sanctification & Defilement, Society, Stewardship, Strategy, The Power of God. Bookmark the permalink.

111 Responses to We can’t plant seed in the middle of winter.

  1. cameron232 says:

    I think it’s especially hard for you Scott, being a part of a small (at least in the U.S.) national/ethnic Church.I assume it would be easier in Serbia.

    But yeah, we all share the same problem.

    Some of this sense of community exists, albeit in imperfect form, in some of the relatively insular (not Amish insular) Bible-belt churches of very conservative type.

    The Mormons particuarly in smaller town Utah and Idaho have some of this.

    Some Traditional Catholics are trying to create this e.g. St Mary’s Kansas.

    But you obviously have to accept what these groups believe to fit in.

    Like

    • Scott says:

      I would be OK with a biritual home for my kids. Mychael and I sort of have that now. The Orthodox church would not let her marry me without her converting to Orthodoxy, and promising to raise the kids Orthodox.

      However, in practice we very much celebrate her Irish/RC traditions on about a 50/50 ratio. Its only fair. And I think western traditions are a beautiful aesthetic. Doing it that way adds richness to our home.

      As long as the home follows the patriarchal deference that both RC and Orthodox proscribe in their own catechisms. That is, if my boys marry RC girls, the wives will have to convert to Orthodoxy, like Mychael did. And if my girls marry RC, they would have to defer to their husband on matters of faith. The RC is a little more lenient about biritual married families, but it is workable.

      I would hope that my sons, watching the way I honor Mychaels rich family RC tradition, while staying Orthodox in particular, will love their wives the same.

      Liked by 1 person

  2. Lexet Blog says:

    The only group that was implementing a system of courtship was the quiverfull movement, which fell apart upon the exposure of their leaderships sin. Even then, that camp of people was relatively small, confined to a homeschool community in the dirty south and Midwest.

    Like most Christian trends in America, their beliefs weren’t inherited by their children.

    As per Amish- you have no shot. Mennonites- your mileage will vary, but they are found in rural areas. They’ll send their family to live with distant relatives just so they can find a man in a different community. You have to have outstanding character to snag one of them though.

    Like

  3. Lexet Blog says:

    Even conservative evangelical churches developed cultures where they are scared that their young adult groups are actually dating pools (because limited men + excess of women who can’t get a man = women ruining it for everyone).

    I’ve met only 4 families in my time who tried to use the church to find spouses for their daughters. Two were female-led homes. All were essentially outcasts in their churches.

    Liked by 1 person

  4. SFC Ton says:

    It never seemed like a workable solution

    #1 life is local and who has the free time for very long road trips to meet some people for a low percentage chance they’ll get married in some unknowable amount of time

    #2 the current system isn’t working well for a lot of people but it’s still working well enough for enough people that most folks arent looking for solutions that far out of the box

    #3 the people advocating these sorts of things all seem high value enough, creating high value kids etc that they are doing well enough in the current system and don’t have to implement their own mental masturbation to be successful

    Personal observation; seeing an up swing in marriages. I think becuase younger folks are finally making enough cash. Last three marriages in my social circle; meet playing volleyball, meet at a bar, meet through family friends….. or they all meet on tinder and are telling tales to cover it up. Either way they all seem happy enough, cranking out babies etc etc

    Like

    • Lexet Blog says:

      What ages are they marrying at?

      I live in an area where church attendance is something even democrats participate in, and the # of marriages are a lot slimmer now than they were 10 years ago. Areas like the south are only a few years behind California’s culture of marrying in your 30s.

      Of all the people in my social circles across many states, I know fewer than 10 who married below the age of 25. Most don’t marry for the first time until they are nearly 30. Of the colleagues not included above who married before 25, they are to a person divorced.

      Now- people living together, completely different story.

      Liked by 1 person

      • SFC Ton says:

        Legit

        In my area democrat = black and they have higher church attendance. Which does nothing to offset the dysfunction

        Guessing at the ages; a 40’ish year old dude, early 30’s chick; a late 20’s early 30’s couple and a couple in their mid 20’s or younger.

        Early marraige is over. That’s just an economic reality. If “conservatives” want more/ younger marriage they will have to do something to encourage it. Like no college debt, blue collar jobs that pay well etc etc

        Liked by 4 people

      • Novaseeker says:

        Lexet —

        The east coast megalopolis is like California in that the marriages are mostly in the 30s. There are some in the later part of the 20s as well. Sub-25 marriages are outliers.

        It poses an unsolvable problem for Christianity, and likely more than anything else is destroying the Church here: virtually everyone in the churches is deeply and profoundly morally compromised by the sex culture prior to marriage, and this culture casts a general shadow over marriage as well as we have discussed in recent articles here. It’s dramatically weakening the church from within.

        Liked by 5 people

      • Lexet Blog says:

        I think one think Protestants can do is to take a hardcore stance against contraceptives. The justification being it contravenes the mandate to be fruitful and multiply, the sin of onan, sin of pride in that you play god and take life into your own hands, as opposed to trusting in god.

        The churches I attended were super conservative. Lots of Doug Wilson followers and lots of MacArthur fans. I was probably the only person under 50 who was against bc at those churches.

        Liked by 3 people

      • Lexet Blog says:

        My point being: churches are not family oriented, nor have they been since the 70s.

        Liked by 3 people

      • cameron232 says:

        @Ton

        “If “conservatives” want more/ younger marriage they will have to do something to encourage it. Like no college debt, blue collar jobs that pay well etc etc”

        And lowered expectations about material things. Don’t have to have a big house (kids can share bedrooms – the horror!), the nice car, men don’t have to have a boat, women don’t have to buy crap at Macy’s, etc. We lived in small houses and dad’s cars were junkers and we were happy.

        @Lexit, “I think one think Protestants can do is to take a hardcore stance against contraceptives.”

        ALmost all Protestants used to be anti-birth control. See Aaron D. Wolf’s (RIP) essay “Hating God, Hating Babies.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Lexet Blog says:

        I agree with your response to Ton, but it’s unlikely “conservatives” will ever push it.

        They want their kids to outperform every one else, so they will recommend everyone else change, while they personally push their kids into college/careers/delayed marriages.

        Before they even address marriage they would have to fight the culture on other fronts: education, entertainment, lifestyle. Most aren’t willing to cancel Netflix or Disney.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Scott says:

        Lexet- Everything the RCC warned about with BC came true.

        The whole world treated them killjoy nerds at the time.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Lexet Blog says:

        I’ve always wondered why Protestants were so eager to accept bc.

        Based off of family sizes, I’d say that it was widely accepted by at least the 80s

        Like

      • Scott says:

        It’s covered in the Monty python film “the meaning of life.”

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        Lexet from what I remember, probably more like the 60’s, 70’s at the latest. The Anglican Lambeth conference of 1930 was the first “acceptance” of bc. I put quotes around acceptance because if you read the text is was a very heavily qualified and downright prudish (by today’s standards) acceptance. Basically something like “in dire circumstances….but must never be used for selfish reasons.” WHat the press reported in 1930 was very different from what the Bishops actually concluded. Nevertheless, within 30, maybe 40 years nearly all denominations had folded.

        Like

  5. Oscar says:

    I attempted to include as many different denominational/traditional world views and I got precisely zero other Manospherians, (who lament the lack such communities) to consider a very mild courtship proposition wherein children brought up in like-minded homes could at least be exposed to each other.

    Come on, brother. I was all in on this idea. Heck, I’m still up for it.

    This [statement in bold] is what the entire Christian Red Pill hopes and dreams for in their wildest fantasies. And the reasons it doesn’t happen are as numerous and complicated as the ocean is wide.

    Except that it is happening. Here are three places that I’ve visited personally.

    St. Mary’s, KS. The Society of Pope Pius X (SPPX) created exactly the kind of community many who read in the Christian Androsphere claim to want. I shared this article at Dalrock’s once, and I think I shared it here as well.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/01/retreat-christian-soldiers/603043/

    Moscow, ID. Pastor Doug Wilson is one of the Christian Androsphere’s favorite punching bags, but guess what? He’s been building for decades what the Christian Androsphere claims doesn’t exist.
    Branson, MO. Ever since I returned from my last deployment (Kuwait, so not a “real” deployment), my wife and I have been building close friendships with Christians there, who – although I doubt read the Christian Androsphere – hold a lot of similar, traditionalist views. We’re already talking to one family about getting our kids together like Scott talked about.

    So, what am I supposed to believe? People who tell me these communities don’t exist? Or my own lying eyes?

    Look, I get that all these communities are flawed. No kidding. They’re full of sinners. Let’s not make “perfection” the enemy of the good, especially considering what’s coming.

    Colossians 3:12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do.

    You know what it means to “bear with one another”? It means putting up with each other. We’d better learn how to do that quickly, because persecution is here, and it’s going to get a lot worse.

    Liked by 3 people

    • Lexet Blog says:

      Doug Wilson is an enemy of the Manosphere, and an advocate of chivalry and blue pill beliefs. The “enemy of my enemy is my friend” principle doesn’t have universal application.

      But, to your point, those circles do try to set couples up and promote marriage. The problem with those groups is that: it’s new, relies on converts, kids leave en masse when they get out of the home.

      The other problem is that they will be short lived. The people who make up the CREC are people who constantly in-fight and jump from movement to movement. Once Wilson leaves, they will leave. Once their ministries face scandal, it will collapse.

      Like

      • Elspeth says:

        I read all of Dalrock’s tirades against Doug Wilson, and here’s the deal. DW’s not perfect, but he’s certainly not the worst when it comes to Biblical teaching on marriage and family. Not the worst by a long, long shot. He’s closer to the truth than fully 75% of the pastors I’ve encountered over the years

        A pastor leading a flock doesn’t have the luxury of pet doctrines and laser focus on one issue. He can’t pretend that men don’t sin against their wives or that every time it happens it MUST because the woman caused it. He can’t do that because it’s anti-Biblical, and not even remotely true.

        Those of us who are not doing the hard job of leading flocks of real human beings in all the messiness of life have the luxury of being armchair quarter backs and back seat drivers.

        I have had a bone or two to pick with Wilson over the years on one or two occasions, but his understanding of the gospel is not one of them, and Oscar is right that he has actually done the work of building the kind of community most of us long for our kids to have been raised in.

        That’s just the truth.

        Like

      • Oscar says:

        @ Lexet

        Doug Wilson is an enemy of the Manosphere, and an advocate of chivalry and blue pill beliefs. The “enemy of my enemy is my friend” principle doesn’t have universal application.

        Right. He’s imperfect. So are you. So am I. Are we going to “bear with each other” (Colossians 3:12), or not?

        But, to your point, those circles do try to set couples up and promote marriage. The problem with those groups is that: it’s new, relies on converts, kids leave en masse when they get out of the home.

        That’s only part of my point. A community is a lot more than just a church, though Pastor Doug’s critics have failed to build even that.

        Christ Church has over 800 members in a city of 23,000. They have a private K-12 school, Logos, that actually teaches “ancient texts and share ancient wisdom” that Scott mentioned in his article. They have a private college, New St. Andrews, that accepts zero government funding.

        What have Pastor Doug’s critics built?

        Obviously, there’s room to criticize Pastor Doug. He’s a man. He can’t be right about everything. But, who do you think has more credibility? A man who’s spent decades building a real life, brick and mortar, flesh and blood community? Or a man who snipes at the builder while building jack crap?

        Like

      • Lexet Blog says:

        They are insulated. I know from personal experience because I know many former friends who bought into their line of thinking. For the purpose of regulating behavior, that’s great. But we can look at numerous other groups to realize how toxic of an environment those can be. The CREC is the new westboro baptists.

        By dating in those pools, you can guarantee certain things. One guarantee you won’t expect is that they will be trauma victims that come with tons of emotional baggage.

        My standard for church leaders is scripture. The only criteria for elder that Doug Wilson meets is that he is a man and is married. Other than that he is completely unqualified to be apart of ministry. There is nothing to respect about him as a person, or the institution he built that is the false church. You may as well go praise the Scientologists because they are the same.

        The people who like Wilson and these smaller cults don’t want a health church that lives biblically. They want social control so they can take part in their power fantasies.

        I’ve seen a lot of this first hand. It always ends in only a few families carrying on into the next generation, only because of the power/money they get from it. They rarely last 2 generations. The ministries are plagued by affairs, financial improprieties, and other crimes.

        Many people like Wilson because of his opinions on American politics.

        Stop mixing faith and culture. Just because they aren’t a liberal doesn’t mean they are a good person and faithful Christian. Just because they say they are a Christian doesn’t mean they are one either.

        If you look into wilson, you will see how toxic he is, and how dangerous he is to the church. You will also see how many scandals and allegations come out of his church.

        Here’s what Doug Wilson has built: a kingdom that honors his name (he is a MacArthur/sproul wannabe), not scriptur. He destroyed the Presbyterian denominations with his federal vision heresy (including my local body when I was in the PCA). His theology has been declared apostate by every denomination except the SBC.

        He’s also a racist (not in the SJW sense, but an actual racist, and all of the CREC members I personally know, they are all racists as well). He supports the system of slavery the south had as well.

        They follow the federal vision statement, and believe that merely joining a church saves you, infant baptism and communion, theonomy, they believe we are in the kingdom right now, that your justification is a process, there are degrees do it, and believe that modern pastors are a continuation of the priesthood, and can therefore intercede on your behalf). If you are Catholic, this is the Protestant denomination for you.

        Because of the controversy over fed vision, Wilson came out and said he will no longer call himself by that term. Instead he re labeled his beliefs, and did not change them. He is deceptive like that.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Oscar says:

        Stop mixing faith and culture.

        The root word of the culture is the Latin “cultus”, which means “a system of worship”, which means faith is the root of culture. You can’t separate the two, no matter how hard you try.

        Anyway, that’s a lot of writing just to evade a question.

        No one is telling you to join any of these communities. The fact is that they exist, so if they’re not doing it your way, you can make your own. When do you start?

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        “He’s also a racist (not in the SJW sense, but an actual racist, and all of the CREC members I personally know, they are all racists as well). He supports the system of slavery the south had as well.”

        Not trolling, genuinely curious. In what ways are they racist (besides “supports the system of slavery the south had”).

        Liked by 1 person

      • Lexet Blog says:

        I think my draft response got deleted by accident. Let me try to recreate it.

        CREC was named after the confederacy. Founded after events in Monroe Louisiana, and recruited out of Deep South PCA churches. (While PCA is only about 50 years old, it’s race relations history is quite bad). Wilson and co wrote revisionist history pieces in the 90s/00s that defended the practice of American slavery. Eventually, the university of Idaho held a civil war conference to debunk everything Wilson taught about the civil war. (This is pre SJW era).

        http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/02/12/what-is-the-problem-with-doug-wilson/

        Liked by 1 person

      • Lexet Blog says:

        Look up

        Doug Wilson
        Steven Wilkins
        League of the south.

        Like

    • Lexet Blog says:

      The faith community in the ozarks is also a completely different animal than anywhere else in the south or even America.

      They have a high concentration of CREC, independent baptists, home schools, home churches, militias, etc. a lot of people out there belonged in the quiverfull movement.

      The churches out there are chock full of women though. The problem is that high quality men are not easily found in those areas- they skip town and leave the state after college. There’s a lack of high paying jobs too. The rest have deadend jobs, or tend to be mothered a bit to much.

      Maybe single guys in the manosphere should move out there, and propose to girls wearing denim skirts or working at chick fil a. They can have their wedding at Branson and have it officiated by Jim bob Duggar

      Like

      • Elspeth says:

        The problem is that high quality men are not easily found in those areas- they skip town and leave the state after college. There’s a lack of high paying jobs too. The rest have deadend jobs, or tend to be mothered a bit to much.

        I read this and I think of SFC Ton’s comment about most men being just as progressive as young women are.

        Why are those “high value” men not going back to their hometown and marrying a virtuous girl from their religious community before heading out together to chase the high paying career? Why leave and go out and marry women who have been swimming in the sewer of postmodern culture their entire lives?

        Because all the immoral dysfunction that characterizes Western womanhood also infects western manhood. The difference is that women have the sexual power and the legal and cultural framework catering to their dysfunction.

        Men are the builders of stable civilizations; women can’t do it. We can only help create functioning societies inside of the framework of what men build. If the men are not interested in building traditional, stable, virtuous communities for building families and passing on the faith to children born in them, there’s is no point in expecting women to be able to right the ship.

        We are not equipped. There’s a reason why you don’t find women leaders in the Bible until the ship is way, way off course.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Lexet Blog says:

        It’s not the fault of the guys though. The churches will shun anyone who doesn’t get married after college, and won’t allow guys without degrees date their daughters. So the sons go off to college out of necessity, and never come back either because they left the faith or economic necessity.

        Most of the parents don’t care if their daughters are single until 35.

        Even in the “ultra conservative” circles I was in, women were pressured to get careers, go to college, motherhood was discouraged, contraceptives encouraged.

        Not sure how the Pentecostal and church of Christ cultures are though.

        Without fail, every married homeschool/stay at home wife family I know had kids who married and rejected their parents lifestyle. That’s what happens when you conform to culture.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Oscar says:

        Maybe single guys in the manosphere should move out there, and propose to girls wearing denim skirts or working at chick fil a.

        You mean put actions to their words? Nah. Better to keep whining on the internet that there are no virtuous women left, than to marry a girl who wears denim skirts.

        Liked by 4 people

      • Lexet Blog says:

        Lots of truth to your comment, but at the same time, I will say that many of these groups do not like outsiders (I have no clue about Pentecostals though. I assume you can get by pretending you are speaking in tongues) . They will make you prove you believe exactly what they believe, and if you don’t, you will be excluded.

        I brought it up in another comment, but insulated communities have a very big negative to them: oppression, fear, and scandal.

        We are seeing waves of reports of sexual abuse in ministries across the US. Look at sovereign grace ministries and a lot of rural baptist churches.

        It takes years for this news to come out because of the social pressures involved. If you speak, you are challenging the authority of the leadership, and you are taking a stance against your social circle.

        Much of the Midwest and south has a very insulated church culture, to the point where if you leave one church, you are dead to everyone in your old church, regardless of why you moved.

        The Duggar’s are a perfect example. A home church centered around the father, where he controls everything. Yea, he is a patriarch, but his sons in law have 0 say over their lives, and the family is a complete wreck since daddy let his son fiddle the daughters.

        There was then a big coverup of the incident by his friends. At the end of the day, one of Jim Bob’s friends ended up in prison because he was into CP.

        Good ole American conservative Christian family

        Liked by 1 person

    • Lexet Blog says:

      There are groups that call themselves “brethren” (they are essentially a cult) who are heavily insular to the point they spend all their time traveling across the country to hold conferences throughout the year. But each sect has only 5-10,000 people MAX nation wide.

      Like

    • redpillboomer says:

      Good points!

      Like

  6. Novaseeker says:

    We’re all going to be a bunch of Yodas practicing a dead religion on a jungle island in one generation. But Luke will not be visiting to learn the ways of Christ and go slaughter the Cathedral.

    Alas, this is true. It is in God’s hands, ultimately, at this point. There are personal solutions for individual situations, but the net/net of all of these is so small, in the grand scale, and the reality is that what you say there — that traditional religion, properly understood, will be dead and in the “Amish” category within a relatively brief period of time (1-3 generations I would say) that it’s really simply something we have to place in God’s hands.

    Do what makes sense in our own lives and for our kids, understand it’s all a drop of water in a massive ocean worth against us, and accept that reality. Trust in God — not because he will ensure we don’t end up in your scenario. In fact, that may be very much what he has in mind. Also don’t place too much stock in the individual outcomes of children, either. You have to do what you can to raise them right, but then they do become adults, and they will be swimming on their own power in this great ocean of anti-God hate that has engulfed us. We do not control what they, as individuals, choose to do, either — we can influence, we can try to persuade, but we cannot determine outcomes. Again, it is in their hands and God’s hands.

    We are entering a period similar to what the last pagans in the Roman empire experienced as the new faith — our own, as it turns out — was swamping theirs, and they were becoming more irrelevant by the day. It is our doom, living in this age, to experience this ourselves in reverse. Of course, it isn’t exactly the same as that. Christianity will survive — primarily in an openly practiced, and openly apostate, form that exists primarily to persecute actual believers. And God will make certain that there are always some actual believers in the world, as bad as it may seem to get for them. But this is what is coming. Accept it, and pray for strength.

    Liked by 2 people

    • redpillboomer says:

      A bit on the pessimistic side, and I get it. Looking around, we’re surrounded by a cultural sh!t show that just seems to keep growing as the years go by. However, HOWEVER…in the midst of all this pessimism, we can’t count God out. We may be headed to the end times swamp land Satanic hell hole, OR…or we may have another revival a la the two Great Awakenings that occurred earlier in American history. I’m not talking about some church having a revival in the panhandle of Florida or Texas, but a Holy Spirit fire revival throughout the land. IDK, just throwing it out there as a possibility. It is above all our ‘pay grades’ now to try to ‘fix’ this utter sh!t show we have in American/Western society 2021, but God… In fact, many years ago my pastor in NJ preached a sermon entitled “But God” using various ‘But God’ passages from Scripture. I don’t remember anything about the sermon except the title, and how riveting it was. When all is lost, when all is hopeless beyond belief… BUT GOD!!! Amen.

      Liked by 1 person

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  8. feeriker says:

    I think the problem ultimately comes down to this: so many –indeed, a majority– of those who claim to be Christ-followers have either forgotten or are ignoring the commandment to “be in the World but not OF the World.” The rejection of the courtship model is one clear piece of evidence of this. While not biblical in the strictest sense, the courtship model still represents a rejection of the secular world’s conception of the MMP. That most Christians reject it as well, and for most of the same reasons as non-believers, is very telling.

    Liked by 1 person

    • redpillboomer says:

      Yes. We have a great falling away, a great deception going on within the church world. However, there still is a remnant who believe and are praying. God is still God. I’m in no way pollyannaish, but I haven’t lost faith in the possibility God has ‘something up His sleeve’ with regards to this utter cultural sh!t show we’re all dealing with. It’s for sure beyond man’s ability to deal with all this crap. It’s going to take God and His power to turn this calamity around.

      Liked by 1 person

  9. lastmod says:

    I agree with Scott actually. Most Christians in th end will not be able to “love” each other. Impossible actually if you look at the comments over the past ten years by many of them. Yes, I know….they are not “real” Christians.

    We may like our gadgets……true enough……..but where is everyone going to freaking WORK in said community? A HVAC tech can’t live in East Jesus and drive three hours to work everyday, raise a family and “keep his balls drained” by his wife who submits only to his authority and riun the household with his wisdom and “authority” if he is driving six hours a day to work and back. So what is said dude going to do? WOrk on a farm? Yeah….24 years old…loves “jesus more than anything” is from the suburbs and wants to move to said community but has zero farming experience or training. One just doesn’t “go work on a farm” or become a rancher. A woman in the same position just doesn’t learn to “darn socks” at 21, and spin cloth and make quilts and has a great life with her believing husband.

    That world doesn’t exist anymore for just about 99% of Christians.

    I grew up in rural America. Someone above was giving the “noble savagery” thing about rural Appalachia / Ozarks. Here’s a truth: most rural Americans are on seasonal work. Most are dirt poor. Most get “government checks” and “county checks” and alcoholism is as bad there as crack cocaine is in the ghetto. That gal in the denim skirt who works at “Chick Filet” usually is not religious, doesn’t have all her teeth and usually has someone in her family that is in jail or has been in state prison. Church attendance in rural “mountain” America is actually lower than in suburban communities.

    Like

    • Oscar says:

      You gotta love it when naysayers claim what others are actually doing is impossible. For example:

      but where is everyone going to freaking WORK in said community?

      The three cities I mentioned, St. Marys, KS, Moscow, ID, and Branson, MO, all have vibrant economies. St. Marys has one college. Moscow has two. Branson has one, with other colleges nearby. No need to “go work on a farm”.

      I grew up in rural America.

      I live in rural Missouri right now, and this…

      That gal in the denim skirt who works at “Chick Filet” usually is not religious, doesn’t have all her teeth and usually has someone in her family that is in jail or has been in state prison.

      … is false.

      Christians are building loving Christian communities right now. They’ve been doing it for decades. No one is obligated to live in any of them, or support any of them, but claims that those communities don’t exist are false.

      Like

      • lastmod says:

        vibrant cities?????

        St. Marys, KS, Moscow, ID, and Branson,

        Thriving economies????? Well Scott, here you go….and the rest of you. Just move here. All set. Oscar will lead by example.

        That gal in the denim skirt who works at “Chick Filet” usually is not religious, doesn’t have all her teeth and usually has someone in her family that is in jail or has been in state prison.

        It’s is true as the day is long. Grew up in it, saw it, lived it. Why do you lie Osacr??????
        Rural America is called “trailer trash” a bit unfairly I could conceed but hence why no one wants to move ther. No work. No work. NO WORK.

        Well….for engineers and men like Scott who have the “skills” but most???? Notta chance. You will be living on welfare. Doing seasonal work.

        Like

      • lastmod says:

        You live in rural Missouri? Sorry to hear that. Get out while you can.

        Like

      • lastmod says:

        “You gotta love it when naysayers claim what others are actually doing is impossible.”

        So……why didn’t you reply this way to Scott? He is the one laying the plank of “where is this?”

        You won’t. Why? Because you just like to hate on anything I say and cut me down. That’s why.

        Like

      • Oscar says:

        You live in rural Missouri?

        Yep.

        Sorry to hear that.

        I’m not. The work is plentiful, the cost of living is low, and the people are great. But then, I don’t have “a low opinion of my fellow man”, so that probably helps.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Joe2 says:

        The three cities I mentioned, St. Marys, KS, Moscow, ID, and Branson, MO, all have vibrant economies.

        Branson, Mo has high crime rates (based on 2019 calendar year data) compared to the overall state (S) and other cities such as St. Joseph (SJ) and Joplin (J). Source: neighborhoodscout.com

        Violent Crime (per 1,000 residents): Branson 6.28, (S) 4.95, (SJ) 5.76, (J) 6.03
        Property Crime (per 1,000 residents): Branson 100.86, (S) 26.39, (SJ) 58.16, (J) 72.2

        Moscow, ID does an excellent job with Violent Crime, but not with Property Crime compared to the overall state (S).

        Violent Crime (per 1,000 residents): Moscow 0.27, (S) 2.24
        Property Crime (per 1,000 residents): Moscow 13.42, (S) 12.19

        St Marys no data.

        With the strong Christian influence in these communities, I would have expected their crime rates to be less than the overall state. Generally, that has not happened which is a disappointment.

        Like

      • Oscar says:

        @ Joe2

        Moscow is home to the University of Idaho, which means a lot of dumb college students doing dumb college student things, and Branson is a resort town, which means thousands of out-of-towners visiting every day.

        I’m not surprised that there is no data on St. Marys.

        Like

      • cameron232 says:

        St Mary’s is rougly midway between Tokpeka and Manhattan (home of K State – a fairly nice town). K State is the more conservative college town/community (Lawrence is the liberal one). There’s very little crime in St Mary’s (and in nearby Maple Hill home of FSSP).

        Property crime rates are less reliable as a gauge partially becuase reporting rates vary more. Ozark people, like Appalacian people (my mom’s family) are more violent than, say, nice midwestern Scandicucks. Or at least there’s a larger violent element in their communities to put it more charitably.

        As far as I can tell, the St. Mary’s parishoners are split work wise – some travel to Topeka or Manhattan. Some have local jobs. Areas lilke this have cheap home prices, paticuarly if you are ok with a modest older home and/or fixer upper.

        Not ideal for sure unless you really like boring small town life but life’s a tradeoff.

        I have a friend out there who works for a defense contractor who works from home full time (his “home office” is in Dallas but he never goes there).

        My dad’s ancestors moved to and helped build Cincinatti’s German-Catholic community. They baked bricks in their ovens to bring to CHurch to build/expand the actual church buildings. They were effectively ethnically cleansed out of the neighborhoods they built by ghetto thugs migrating from the South.

        Like

  10. Ame says:

    I mean who, really? I am like a chameleon in my public life. My true beliefs would get me shunned from the company of even those who call themselves “conservatives”.

    there’s theory.

    then there’s reality.

    the bible gives us lots of clear direction in lots of areas, but it doesn’t give us detailed direction in lots of areas. which is probably one of the reasons it continues to be so relevant through history.

    Liked by 2 people

  11. cameron232 says:

    From what I can tell, the people who have to closet thing to this are the LDS in small town Utah and, especially, Idaho (not Salt Lake City which is nice only by big city standards).

    I think this is simply because of the large geographic concentration in UT/SE Idaho.

    Of course you have to accept their rather “unique” understand. I guess to point to mentioning it is to show what is possible.

    THere are thriving Latin Mass traditional Catholics in various areas: St Mary’s KS, Mapleton (Topeka) KS, Kansas City, Southeast Michigan (urban), Southwest Wisconsin (rural), SW Ohio/N Kentucky/SE Indiana, etc. But these are not anywhere near majorities in their communies.

    THere is a large concentration of Mennonites north of Wichita KS. There are quite of few conservative Lutherans (of various synods) in North Wisconsin and the Michigan UP.

    Like

    • Sharkly says:

      There is a large concentration of Mennonites north of Wichita KS.
      Yeah, and we’re all pretty much woman worshipping churchians these days. And growing more worldly by the day. Don’t come here and expect to find it how it was when I was little. It really crapped out over the last 35 years. The local Mennonite people have fully assimilated and become typical ordinary Americans. They won’t even eat their own Mennonite New-Years-cookies anymore. They claim they’re disgusting.

      Like

  12. SFC Ton says:

    The more I grind through it the more I see the low marriage and low birth rate as an ecconmic issue

    Lestwise here in rural and eastern NC. We have a few old school blue collar employers and it seems to me, young men get married up pretty quickly once they get hired on by one

    Middle class wages = middle class morality

    Lestwise out here where most young boys get their early world view from going to Sunday school and playing Pop-Warner football

    Liked by 2 people

    • Oscar says:

      That’s definitely part of it, but it’s kind of a feedback loop.

      Solid marriages result in stable families that build wealth over time. Weak marriages – or even worse, no marriage – leads to unstable families that get stuck in generational poverty.

      I’m sure you knew that already, but it’s good to emphasize, I think.

      Like

      • Seem’s like you mostly missed the point of Ton’s comment. What is the solid marriage based on? Economic security has to be there for wife and kids and steady, good-paying job is the basis of economic security.

        Of course that economic security, while required, is not sufficient on its own. The women has to believe that staying married to the same economically secure man is in her own best interest, and the society around her has to support and reinforce that belief.

        Like

      • Oscar says:

        Seem’s like you mostly missed the point of Ton’s comment. What is the solid marriage based on? Economic security has to be there for wife and kids and steady, good-paying job is the basis of economic security.

        No, I got the point, and I agree with Ton. That’s why I said it’s a feedback loop. Economic security helps make marriages stable, and stable marriages help create economic security. A family can either spiral upward, or downward, depending on that feedback loop.

        However, you have to start somewhere. My family was dirt poor when we immigrated to the States, but my parents had a stable marriage (despite being so economically insecure that they often had to choose between bare necessities like food, and rent), and that marital stability led to economic stability for the next generation.

        Liked by 1 person

      • lastmod says:

        This is where the confusion and the split answers come in depeanding on “who” is saying it.

        A young man needs to have his “mission” for life planned out to find / pursue a “good wife”. Let’s say this is the case (rare, but it happens) so he gets a career, has enough money for a house, ready to get married and he can’t find a wife because they are all “no good” and on ‘Only Fans” or he just isn’t “good looking” enough to attract one. Then he has to settle for the gal at “Chick Filet” in the denmin skirt…..then he will be lamblasted for not marrying the right one when she divorces him “oh because we live ina feminized culture / he didn’t vett properly”

        The other side is that a man is married. Company closes, Covid casuses work to stop or some other calamity….the finacial situation gets dire and he “should have got a better / more stable career. He should have saved 45% of every check for situations like this”

        If we go by what Dalrock and others and many, many pastors today purport we should not be surprised……….a man is supposed to have everything “figured out” and if he doesn’t he obviously is “blue pilled” or whatever. He is to have provision, above average looking, have muscles, have above average intelligence, and be able to brign all women to an orgams / cause the “tingles” really hard, or it’s “just not going to work”

        This split of the these “whatevers” has caused vast confusion about christian and men and men of the world. The problem is that Christianity adopted the “world’ standard” for everything. Excellent provision, looks, status, money, athelticim…eveything the world claims is VERY important and on the Christian side, its the same but with a few bible quotes, jesus invoked and the same standrds set….and its being purported by Red Pilled Christianity.

        I am not saying the christian or faith side of the spectrum should throw it all to the wind and not strive to be the best they can….but such a focus on looks, money, status, provision, and who has more or what you-need-to-d-o-to-get-more has done more corruption than feminism.

        Even if man has provision in the Christian world, or is on the upswing towards that….he still isn’t good enough because he has to do a billion other things just maybe get IOI’s or female attention.

        This is where I lean towards where a disconnect may be. Osacr of course will disagree with me…….but every secular single man and every single christian man seems to be gettting mixed messages on what is important. Hence why most secular men are not “flocking to church to learn about jesus” because really it teaches nothing different than what he has learned in the secular world. Much of this is coming from Red Pilled Christians mind you. Just an observation

        My parents were doing very well by the mid 1970’s. By 1981, dad out of work for two years (the recession of 1981/ 1982 hit the Northeast badly). We almost lost everything. They had a stable marriage………and that didn’t prevent a “spiral downward”

        Like

      • Oscar says:

        My parents were doing very well by the mid 1970’s. By 1981, dad out of work for two years (the recession of 1981/ 1982 hit the Northeast badly). We almost lost everything. They had a stable marriage………and that didn’t prevent a “spiral downward”

        Nobody said that a stable marriage will prevent a spiral downward in all cases. Obviously, everyone understands that there are circumstances outside ones control.

        My native country got taken over by Communists who threatened to kill my dad. Obviously, those circumstances were outside my parents’ control.

        However, my parents chose to stay together for life, and that stability enabled my siblings and me to pull out of the downward spiral that the Commies sent my family into.

        My parents couldn’t control the Commies, but they did control themselves, and my siblings and I are better off because of it.

        Liked by 2 people

  13. Scott says:

    I wouldn’t mind the atomized “civilization” we live in so much if we could do it without the political correctness, cancel culture and struggle sessions.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Novaseeker says:

      But, but … without those, there would not be any civilization left. That is, these are now the “ties that bind”. The old “ties” are “oppressive”, but you can’t maintain a large entity like ours with the degree of atomization we have unless there are some “ties” … so we have these markers acting as the “ties that bind”. This is also why they — or something like them — are not going away soon. It is precisely because the culture is atomized that we have such an emphasis on these things — we “need” them to hold together the entity on a large/national basis (as rickety as that obviously is right now, lol), because without them, literally nothing else binds us together.

      Liked by 4 people

      • Scott says:

        And that’s precisely my point

        Folks can point and sputter at the likes of Vdare, occidental dissent, American renaissance et al, and label them all “racists” but the basic thesis is correct.

        Dimensions of homogeneity matter. And if the “traditional” ones like ethnicity/faith/whatever are no longer considered valid factors around which to build a civilization, SOMETHING will take the place of those.

        And so now we have this weird hard left/progressive values system that everyone must adhere to or risk everything, including your very way of making a living.

        Liked by 5 people

      • Oscar says:

        I need to create a WordPress account so I can “like” these comments.

        Like

  14. Joe2 says:

    @Oscar

    and Branson is a resort town, which means thousands of out-of-towners visiting every day.

    True. The source (neighborhoodscout.com) in its Q.and A. section addressed that concern. In other words, visitors / tourists may commit the crimes and skew the statistics. They compared the crime rates of various cities in Florida all of which experience a large influx of visitors / tourists. They learned that the cities did not all have high crime rates. They concluded that crime rates are related to inherent characteristic of the population and not due to visitors / tourists.

    Like

    • Oscar says:

      This is, yet again, a case where I have to ask myself, what do I believe; the naysayers, or my own, lying eyes?

      My family and I visit Branson regularly, and the Christian influence in Branson is palpable. The people of Branson are undoubtedly the kindest, friendliest, most welcoming people I’ve ever been around. And I’ve been to a lot places in this world.

      Like

      • cameron232 says:

        Ozark people are probably like Appalachian people. Appalachian people have a higher proportion of violent people compared to e.g. Minnesota Scandicucks and Iowa Midwest Nice.

        My mom’s family is from rural West Virginia. My paw-paw was stabbed in the ribs with a pocketknife and returned the favor by carving the guy up pretty good (my paw paw did jail time for this). He also pulled a knife on a Nazarene preacher named “Johnny-Joe” who would later become his brother in law. His sister used to beat up shop-lifting black women (sorry for the racial angle but black women’s reputation as pretty tough is the point to including it) and toss them in the alley when the cops refused to do anythign about the theft. With that violence btw comes a disproportionate amoung of child abuse – some of it pretty bad. ONe of my mom’s cousins suffered brain damage from being thrown against the wall repeatedly.

        I wouldn’t be shocked if Branson had higher than average crime AND some real nice people.

        Booze/meth or Jesus.

        Like

      • Scott says:

        Cameron-

        Interesting. My moms side is Ozark mountain Scot-Irish. (Benton, Cooper, Leach, Brownlowe, names like that)

        My grandpa actually killed two guys for beating up a cousin of mine (who was left paralyzed) They beat him because he was weird/nerdy. Essentially, bullying/picking on him.

        So, after the dust settled, my grandpa found them hunting in the woods, and beat them to death with the butt of his shotgun. The sheriff did not investigate or do anything, because everyone in town thought it was just.

        This was in the 1930s, Rosebud, Arkansas.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Oscar says:

        @ Cameron

        Booze/meth or Jesus.

        So… like Hispanics, then. Must be why I like it there.

        Liked by 2 people

  15. feeriker says:

    If “conservatives” want more/ younger marriage they will have to do something to encourage it.

    “Conservatives” are part of the secular Globalist culture that hates families. They’ve made that obvious for years. The only difference between them and the liberals is that the liberals are OVERT AND UNASHAMED in their hatred of famlies, especially “Deplorable” families. “Conservatives” hate such people, too, but just can’t bring themselves to be honest enough to admit it.

    Liked by 2 people

    • SFC Ton says:

      Republicans were the 1st progessive poltical party, and at the time owned by the railroads

      Nothing has changed. They are still a far left party and still bought and paid for.

      Which is why they hated Trump and have never done anything to help middle class founding stock types

      Liked by 1 person

  16. feeriker says:

    My standard for church leaders is scripture.

    Most churches claim that this is their standard for how they operate, but we know this to be false. How do we know this to be false? Very simple: almost NO established churches emphasize apologetics training for their congregations. How can they, when they don’t even emphasize basic biblical literacy to the point where congregants can digest spiritual milk, let alone spiritual meat? In fact, most churches dispense nothing by spiritual junk food.

    Symptom: Almost NO churches impose a strict requirement for Bible study as a condition of membership. Of course the justification for this is something along the lines of “we can’t compel our members to do this! They’ll leave us if we do!” Okay … so what? What good is a congregation full of Biblical illiterates? You might as well establish a drinking club, a sports club, or a comix club if you don’t care about biblical literacy. Of course the real reason churches won’t impose mandatory biblical literacy requirements is two-fold. First, most churches’ pastors and “elders” are themselves biblically illiterate and have no desire to remedy that condition (because of sloth and fear). Second, they cannot afford to risk alienating congregants because it causes empty collection plates.

    Symptom: “Bible studies” in most churches focus not on the Bible, but on heresy-laden bestselling New Age-y books written by biblically ignorant churchian celebrity authors. This trend is RAMPANT in Protestant churches today and is in no small measure responsible for the heretical rot that has taken hold. The Bible is apparently “just too hard for most people to understand.” Yes, I’ve actually had more than one pastor come right out and give that to me as a justification for not centering “Bible study” ON THE ACTUAL BIBLE. No, the Bible is not “too hard for most people to understand.” “Most people” are too lazy to blow the dust off of their Bibles and open the covers to read them. Also, most pastors realize that if their congregations were truly biblically literate and born again in Christ that they would strip said pastors of their position and run them out of town covered in tar and feathers for the lies and heresies that they’ve fed them.

    Symptom: Women in positions of authority within the church. We can thank the two symptoms listed above for this abomination. A cynic might also say that this is another reason apologetics is frowned upon, as is studying the Bible in “Bible studies” rather than churchian romance novels. The Bible contains too many passages that women don’t like, especially when it comes to women’s proper and Scriptural roles within the church and the family. Alienating women = no more shekels in the collection plates, and since churchian franchises are businesses (albeit of the [ostensibly] non-profit variety) this cannot be tolerated.

    Inevitably, someone will say “it’s every man’s job to ‘wash his family in the Word.'” That’s true, but if men are to lead their families, if they are to relate to their wives and children as Christ relates to the Church, do they not need to be as strong as possible in their knowledge of the Word? Should not one of a pastor’s primary duties be to ensure that the men of his congregation are as strong as possible in their knowledge and understanding of the Word so that they may wash their families in it? Should not the men of the congregation be in unity in their positions as leaders? Most pastors apparently don’t see things that way. They see strong, biblically literate men as threats to their own power and authority. Heaven forbid that a biblically literate layman might embarrass the pastor by having some insight into or understanding of the Bible that the pastor lacks. Or, worse still, that the layman calls out the pastor on a sin that might force him to repent in front of the congregation, or even threaten his pastoral status. Can’t have that, not under any circumstances. Better that everyone live in darkness than that Dear Leader be seen as weak or compromised.

    THIS is a major reason why corporate churches today are collapsing in dysfunction. Pastors playing the role of Supreme Leader, manipulating biblically illiterate congregations in ways that serve their own personal ends rather than God’s, and who are unrestrained by elders who are wise and knowledgable in the Word and who are fully aware of unhesitating in fulfilling the roles within the church that Scripture sets out for them, and a complete lack of church discipline on any level. I won’t even get into the fact that Christian church bodies today are not even remotely united in any way that enables them to act on even the most basic and universally agreed upon tenets of the Christian faith. I’m not just talking about different denominations, but even individual congregations within the same denomination. It’s small wonder the enemy is having such a field day.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Elspeth says:

      I tend to agree with you on this freeriker, and am blessed with a husband who not only studies faithfully, but leads his family in faithful study.

      However, there are plenty of sects within Christianity where Biblical knowledge is not placed at a high premium but where -at least until very recently- the model of family order, marital responsibilities, and sexual mores are clear and distinct. I’m very Protestant, but always respected that particular trait of Catholicism (again, until very recently). I only mention that because I know there are readers and contributors here who are in faith traditions that don’t necessitate knowing Scripture thoroughly as a prerequisite for leading one’s family.

      We have been wrestling with our church affiliation for the better part of 5 years (maybe more). We feel very strongly that church hopping is something to avoid, that commitment to the body of believers you are a part of is serious business, to only be un-tethered in the case of rank heresy. Otherwise, you stay and fight for the truth. We recently came to the conclusion that it is time to find a new church. Funny how 2020 forced us to look at things that we never really wanted to look at before. But we don’t harbor any illusions that we will land in an ideologically perfect church.

      The thing we are finding is that having standards and principles which should be common among fellow believers often makes us seem rigid and/or judgemental no matter how loving and open we are to people around us. The primary motivation for everyone these days seems to be catering to how people feel,or how something might make others feel. Even if it isn’t right.

      It is hard to plant seeds in the middle of winter; even down here where we live with a year round planting season, LOL.

      Like

      • feeriker says:

        The thing we are finding is that having standards and principles which should be common among fellow believers often makes us seem rigid and/or judgemental no matter how loving and open we are to people around us.

        I would like to say that I’m mystified by the rampant aversion to “judgementalism” that infects most churches today, but when I think about it, it’s not surprising. This attitude is central to hedonism, and we see how thoroughly that philosophy has infected the church (at least here in the West). Even a cursory glance at both the Four Gospels and the Epistles of Paul, those parts of Scripture that represent the core of Christian doctrine, reveals that both Jesus and His Disciples were VERY “judgemental” when it came to confronting sin and setting those who believed (or who sought the truth) on the path to reptenance and salvation. Reading the Gospels, in particular, in greater detail, we see that “judgementalism” WORKED in terms of leading the sinner away from the path to damnation and toward that of salvation. It is the LACK of such “judgementalism” that has led the church to the point of collapse where it now finds itself. One of the reasons I have left every church I’ve attended over the last twelve years is that NOT ONE would ever draw a firm line in the sand and say “This is what our Lord has commanded*, and this is what our Lord will have done. DO IT, or be found in sin!” In response to the inevitable “but that will turn people away!”, I say no, it won’t. Believers (and remember, the church is an assembly of BELIEVERS, first and foremost) who have absorbed Scripture in their hearts and who are doing their best to walk the walk will NOT be offended by any such thing. Quite the contrary, in fact. Indeed, I don’t think that even non-saved “seekers” who are hungry for the truth would be offended by this approach. I think the lack of committment to absolutes (another characteristic of hedonism) is what has led to so many non-believers refusing to even consider church attendance. If the church isn’t going to hold people to standards different from or higher than the World’s, then what is the point?

        [* In reference to specific Scripture passages read IN CONTEXT.]

        Like

      • Oscar says:

        I would like to say that I’m mystified by the rampant aversion to “judgementalism” that infects most churches today, but when I think about it, it’s not surprising.

        It’s not new. It was already rampant in the early ’90s.

        This attitude is central to hedonism, and we see how thoroughly that philosophy has infected the church (at least here in the West).

        That’s part of it, but I think it started as an over-correction to actual legalism. Now, it’s the “woke” Christians who are the actual legalists. It’s just that their “laws” are a mockery of God’s law.

        Since I was a teenager, whenever a professing Christian calls me judgmental for adhering to Biblical principle, I respond with, “let me see if I understand this correctly. You’ve judged that I’m judgmental, and you’ve judged that being judgmental is bad. Does that about cover it?”

        Like

  17. Eric Francis Silk says:

    My own experience is that existing churches are useless as dating pools. But if you want to marry within your own faith tradition then normal dating strategies don’t work either. Forget about chatting up the girl at the coffee shop; she probably isn’t a Christian in any meaningful way. Not in our culture.

    I think the sexual market is broken. We’ve reached a state of crisis.

    Biblical marriage, or Marriage 1.0 as others have called it, no longer exists in this world.

    We can’t go back to the world that once existed. That world is dead. Time to stop beating a dead horse.

    I’m about to turn 31. My chance for a “biblical” marriage at a young age has already passed me by.

    So how do we survive under these new conditions?

    Liked by 1 person

    • Novaseeker says:

      It’s certainly very hard. The trouble is that although the times have indeed changed, God’s law doesn’t change. No negotiability there.

      If you haven’t seen it yet, this is a good resource, written by a younger guy who ran the gauntlet himself, with success, after quite a lot of difficulty: https://deepstrength.wordpress.com/actionable-steps-to-finding-a-wife/

      Liked by 1 person

      • Eric Francis Silk says:

        Well… I’ve already tried to articulate my views on God’s Law and the question of whether it can change or be suspended in response to a state of crisis. I was even invited to contribute a whole post on that. We’ll see how that goes.

        If I wanted to sum up my view on the Bible and its applicability in a crisis I guess I could do it by stating this: books can’t make decisions. Or alternately: no norm is applicable to chaos.

        Still have to go back to my sources and develop this further.

        Liked by 1 person

    • Oscar says:

      Time to stop beating a dead horse.

      Why? You seem very fond of beating dead horses.

      Like

      • Eric Francis Silk says:

        If I wanted your opinion I’d give it to you.

        Like

      • Oscar says:

        If I wanted your opinion I’d give it to you.

        Couldn’t everyone here say the same, lame movie line to you?

        Speaking of your opinion (which you’re very happy to give everyone who didn’t ask for it); have you figured out who – specifically (as in a person’s name, or specific office) – has the authority to “suspend” God’s law yet?

        No one here has (or claims) that authority, yet you insist on beating that dead horse here, instead of making your case to the person (or office) that supposedly has the authority to “suspend” God’s law. Why?

        Liked by 1 person

      • Eric Francis Silk says:

        Relying here since I can’t reply to your last comment.

        As for who can suspend God’s Law, we’ve been over this before. Deus Absconditus isn’t available for direct questioning. This is a line of reasoning that needs to be developed as a collaborative process.

        You are very unhelpful. In general, and on this specific topic.

        That’s not even what my first comment here was about.

        My point: Biblical marriage is dead, and you’re not going to find a worthwhile spouse through Tinder or chatting up women in the street. The Sexual Market is in a state of crisis. So what now? Without giving away too many personal details, moving to Branson Missouri isn’t going to be happening.

        I don’t think there are personal solutions to systemic problems. The best we can do is to adjust to the new real as best we can and stop living as if Marriage 1.0 still existed. It is dead. It is not coming back in our lifetimes. The ships have been burnt and there is no turning back.

        No norm is applicable to chaos. The old rules don’t apply because the old game isn’t even being played anymore.

        So how do we play the hand we are dealt?

        Like

      • Oscar says:

        @ Eric Francis Silk

        As for who can suspend God’s Law, we’ve been over this before.

        Right. You’re still beating that dead horse. As I stated.

        Deus Absconditus isn’t available for direct questioning.

        No matter how many times you repeat that lie, it’s still a lie.

        Philippians 4:6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God

        You are very unhelpful. In general, and on this specific topic.

        Translation: you have a problem for every solution. For example….

        Without giving away too many personal details, moving to Branson Missouri isn’t going to be happening.

        Shocker!

        So how do we play the hand we are dealt?

        The answer to your question depends on the answer to one of the many questions I’ve asked you that you never answered (which you just did again, by the way).

        Who is your Lord?

        That is not a rhetorical question. Please try giving a direct, honest answer to a direct, honest question for once, and name your Lord.

        Like

    • Joe2 says:

      My own experience is that existing churches are useless as dating pools. But if you want to marry within your own faith tradition then normal dating strategies don’t work either.

      Julia Duin in her book, “Quitting Church” documents how singles are treated in the church here in the USA. And what she found is discouraging. If you are single and like to be abused and considered second class, then there is a place for you in church.

      Existing churches are useless because the pastor, elders and those who “run” the church don’t want it to be used as such. In contrast, in India she found that Christian churches will act as a kind of matchmaker for those who express an interest. I surmise this is due to a different culture and that Christians are a very small minority.

      Liked by 2 people

      • SFC Ton says:

        I left church becuase of their hostility toward men and their hostility toward Westren civilization via poltical correctness

        That was 15-20 years ago. Can’t imagine how much worse that’s all gotten

        Like

    • feeriker says:

      So how do we survive under these new conditions?

      Looking at that question in the broader, more generic sense (i.e., “how do we believers survive under these conditions of increasing persecution and marginalization that are only going to get much, MUCH worse?”), the short answer is “start bearing one another’s burdens. Come together as a community. Form true bonds as brothers and sisters in Christ. Make strengthening your faith and building of the community of believers your number one prioirty.”

      <a href=”https://jehurst.wordpress.com/’>Ed Hurst already covers this far better than I can, so if you want to know what this community of the faithful (a Covenant community) looks like, check out Ed’s work. From where I sit, this means completely abandoning the atomized, individualist lifestyle and life philosophy that we have all been leading for our entire lives. It also means treating one’s faith as something more than “Sunday Morning Night Club.” Needless to say, I don’t think most people are ready for this – yet. We’ll see if tunes change as conditions continue to worsen.

      In terms of the focus of this thread, it would be wonderful to think that Christians will wake up, realize that this is not a game, and that forming Christian families and communities is essential to survival. The best we can do now is pray that this attitude takes root, and try to do whatever we can in our own individual ways to guide things down that path.

      Liked by 3 people

      • Oscar says:

        Christians can join one of the Christian communities that already exist (of which I mentioned three, so odds are that others exist), or they can build their own. But I don’t want to hear any more whining about how it’s impossible to build Christian community these days, when Christians have been doing the supposedly “impossible” for decades in real life.

        Like

    • Eric Francis Silk says:

      @Oscar

      As for “having a problem for every solution”, I’m not an American. So, no, moving to Missouri isn’t an option.

      That’s beside the point. You’re unhelpful and unpleasant. I’m not interested in discussing this with you any more.

      Like

      • Oscar says:

        As for “having a problem for every solution”, I’m not an American. So, no, moving to Missouri isn’t an option.

        I wasn’t born in the USA either. So?

        Besides, Branson, MO is not the only place on Earth that where faithful Christian communities exist. You could find a faithful Christian community somewhere else that is more to your liking, and then join that community.

        But you won’t, because you have a problem for every solution. So, you’d rather sit on the internet beating dead horses.

        Also, you still didn’t answer the question (shocker!). Who is your Lord?

        Like

  18. lastmod says:

    DOn’t read it. Same ol schlop you have been tol din Bible studies…and he won’t answer questions unless you tell him how much you are benching, how many reps, and your long term set-in-stone goals are.

    I have read this book. Same as the trillion other books for other Christian men. If it doesn’t work, you didn’t follow his steps exactly and must be “blue pilled”

    Don’t waste your time

    Like

  19. lastmod says:

    Nova…he had plenty of success. Plenty of women noticed him (IOI’s). Plenty of women wanted to get to know him, and he did have prematial sex……so there you have it.

    Like

  20. feeriker says:

    But I don’t want to hear any more whining about how it’s impossible to build Christian community these days, when Christians have been doing the supposedly “impossible” for decades in real life.

    I’m certainly not saying it’s impossible. I merely question the willingness of the current majority to get up off of their bee-hinds and actually make it happen.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Oscar says:

      I agree that the majority won’t make it happen, but it’s that same majority who then whines that Christian communities don’t exist, or are impossible to create. Then, when I point out that Christian communities already exist, they whine that those communities aren’t perfect, or not doing it their way, or the women wear denim skirts, or, or, or….

      Liked by 1 person

    • Oscar says:

      …. or they don’t want to move to Branson, MO, but they’re also unwilling to look for faithful Christian communities anywhere (see Eric Francis Silk above), or… or… or….

      A problem for every solution.

      Like

  21. Eric Francis Silk says:

    God is sovereign. Does that answer your question?

    The recognition that the sexual market is in crisis and requires a state of exception is not a dead horse. It is a horse that hasn’t been born yet.

    I do not appreciate your needless antagonism.

    Like

    • Oscar says:

      God is sovereign. Does that answer your question?

      Nope. Who is your Lord? The answer to that question is “_____ is my Lord”. Fill in the blank.

      Like

      • Eric Francis Silk says:

        God is my lord. God is sovereign. Same thing.

        Do states of crisis require states of exception (ie suspending the law)? Is the Bible a suicide pact? Do biblical norms apply to chaos?

        Like

      • Oscar says:

        God is my lord. God is sovereign. Same thing.

        Thank you for finally answering the question. No, they’re not the same thing. One is active and personal (God is my Lord). One is passive and impersonal (God is sovereign).

        Do states of crisis require states of exception (ie suspending the law)?

        Man’s law? Maybe. God’s Law? No. Not even when Christians were being burned alive to light Nero’s garden. Has anyone threatened to literally burn you alive?

        Is the Bible a suicide pact?

        The one you claim is your Lord requires you to be obedient onto death.

        Revelation 2:10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

        Do biblical norms apply to chaos?

        God’s Law applies even to the chaos of being burned alive to light Nero’s garden. Has anyone threatened to literally burn you alive?

        Did you notice how I answered your questions directly the first time you asked them? Now, you try.

        Like

      • Eric Francis Silk says:

        Have you read the novel Silence by Shusako Endo or seen the recent film version?
        If you haven’t, it’s about a Portuguese priest serving as a missionary to feudal Japan. The priest is arrested by the local authorities who want to stop the spread of Christianity to Japan. The authorities have already figured out that the Christians in Japan won’t apostatize under torture. So they torture others and tell tbe Christians that they can stop the torture by apostatizing, symbolically done by trampling on an image of Christ.
        This is the choice that the priest is given. He tramples on the image.
        Did the priest commit a sin?

        I won’t equate navigating today’s sexual market with that dire situation. But it is something to ponder.

        Like

      • Oscar says:

        @ Eric Francis Silk

        I don’t base my theology on novels, and you evaded the question again. Has anyone threatened to literally burn you alive?

        Like

      • Eric Francis Silk says:

        All political theories are just secularized theological concepts. The opposite is also true.

        The Bible is a book of written law. All bodies of written law have limits.

        Can books make decisions?
        Is the Bible sovereign or is God sovereign?

        And I did answer your question. It wasn’t a serious question (has anyone here been threatened with being burned alive?) so I’ll take it as the rhetorical question it is.

        Now answer mine. Did the priest sin by trampling on the image?

        Your flippant answer of “I don’t base my theology on novels” shows that you didn’t even think about it.

        Like

      • Oscar says:

        And I did answer your question. It wasn’t a serious question (has anyone here been threatened with being burned alive?) so I’ll take it as the rhetorical question it is.

        It definitely is a serious question. It’s not rhetorical. And you failed to answer, unsurprisingly. Has anyone threatened to burn you alive, Eric? Yes, or no?

        I’ll answer your question as soon as you answer mine, just as I did before.

        Like

    • Eric Francis Silk says:

      I think you know the answer, which is why it isn’t a question that can be taken seriously.

      Would you trample on the image if you were in the same position as the Portuguese priest?

      Like

      • Oscar says:

        I think you know the answer, which is why it isn’t a question that can be taken seriously.

        I don’t even know where you live, so no, I don’t know the answer. Now, answer the question. Has anyone threatened to burn you alive, Eric? Yes, or no?

        I will answer your question as soon as you answer mine, just as I did before.

        Like

      • Eric Francis Silk says:

        Unask the question. The answer is irrelevant. Whether or not that has happened to me establishes nothing.
        If you must know, then no. That has not happened. But it means nothing. It’s just a simple statement of fact.

        On the other hand, I gave you a dilemma to consider. What’s your choice? Will you trample the image? You answer reveals a lot.

        Like

      • Oscar says:

        If you must know, then no. That has not happened.

        Okay. So, no one has threatened to burn you alive, if you refuse to deny Christ. That means that you have never faced a moral crisis anywhere near as bad as the ones faced by the Christians who were burned alive for refusing to deny Christ.

        What’s your choice? Will you trample the image?

        Here’s what my Lord commands me.

        Matthew 10:32 “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.

        I want my Lord to confess me before the Father, so I will confess my Lord before men, as He commanded me to do. I’ve faced death hundreds of times for far less. I can do no less for my Lord than He did for me, for I am not greater than He.

        So, since the Christians who were burned alive for their faithfulness to Christ refused to “suspend” God’s moral Law to relive their suffering, what gives you the right to “suspend” God’s moral Law to relieve yours?

        That was not a rhetorical question. Please answer it.

        Like

    • Eric Francis Silk says:

      You haven’t been paying attention.

      I suggest you either read the novel or watch the film version.

      The priest had the choice of trampling the image or allowing others to be tortured and killed. Would you trample the image?

      Like

      • Oscar says:

        @ Eric Francis Silk

        You haven’t been paying attention.

        No. You haven’t been paying attention. I already told you what my Lord (and your Lord, so you claim) commands. I will obey my Lord.

        I suggest you either read the novel or watch the film version.

        I already did, and I still don’t base my theology on novels, or movies.

        The priest had the choice of trampling the image or allowing others to be tortured and killed. Would you trample the image?

        Have you read Fox’s Book of Martyrs? That’s been a real moral dilemma for Christians for 2,000 years. And I already answered your question.

        So, since the Christians who were burned alive for their faithfulness to Christ refused to “suspend” God’s moral Law to relive their suffering, what gives you the right to “suspend” God’s moral Law to relieve yours?
        That was not a rhetorical question. Please answer it.

        Like

  22. Pingback: The Sexual Market IS the Marriage Market | Σ Frame

  23. Pingback: The Christian Marriage Dilemma | Σ Frame

  24. Wulfgar Thundercock III says:

    Nothing is going to fix marriage until things get bad enough that men go back to owning women, and women start being passed from father to husband without much regard for her feelings on the matter. Contraception, safe and reliable, has been available since some time in the Bronze Age. It isn’t contraceptives that is causing the problem. It is the high status of women with regards to men. Control women, and you will find that the problem mysteriously disappears, much like how women mysteriously started having bastards in alleys when the Victorians tried to control men instead of women.

    Until then, the only way to go about it for a Christian man is to keep fucking women until he can find one he can get to stick around. Any interpretation of Scripture that results in incels and whores is a bad interpretation. It will bear no fruit, and it is by the fruit that we shall know the true intent.

    I wanted to marry a virgin, as a virgin, and be a one woman man for my life. That isn’t on the table. So tinder it is, until this civilization dies its much deserved death and we can start rebuilding.

    Liked by 1 person

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