Coram Mundo vs. Coram Deo

One’s righteousness before God is not the same as one’s practicable value to men.

Readership: All;

God doesn’t see things in the same way that man does

“Can women who were s1uts in the past, but then had a “born-again” saving experience, really become pure and undefiled?”

I have seen this question come up again and again around the Manosphere.

Outside of the Manosphere, all arguments to this effect are essentially shaming Christian men for not eagerly marrying single mothers.  A shame in itself.

Honestly, should Christian men pursue post-wall, Super-N Karens, and single Christian moms for marriage, as if they were the pick of the litter?

Matthew E. Cochran addressed this issue of confusion in a classic post, Do Single Christian Men Owe Marriage to Single Christian Moms? (2019 March 14).  A relevant excerpt follows.

Here, Parkison confuses righteousness coram deo (before God) with righteousness coram mundo (before the world).  Before God, single Christian moms are indeed pure due to the imputed righteousness of Christ, which he mentions several times in the piece. But in this very same sentence, he judges Christian men coram mundo when he indicates that they don’t deserve such a wife.  After all, coram deo, Christian men are likewise pure and perfect. Accordingly, they truly deserve a spotless bride just as much as Jesus Christ does. In other words, Parkison is making an apples-to-oranges comparison here.

What if we make an apples-to-apples comparison? Well, coram deo, there is no judgment to be made, for all the faithful are pure and perfect while all the unfaithful are totally depraved. That is precisely why Christians, when considering whether someone would make a good wife (or husband), always do so coram mundo. Coram deo, even the penitent but struggling prostitute is just as pure as the sinless Son of God. That doesn’t mean she would make a good wife.

As long as one thinks a man should actually evaluate a woman as a prospective wife rather than marrying completely indiscriminately, then it must be done coram mundo. And as long as any such evaluation is going to take place, then men are going to prefer debt-free virgins without tattoos, all other things being equal. The author desperately tries to tie that male preference for virginity to pimply 17-year-olds at youth camp, but as I’ve written before, that preference is rooted in natural law, biological reality, and God’s Word – not in vanity as the author asserts. This God-given preference cannot and should not be overwritten by worldly philosophies, and none of the author’s deceptive rhetoric changes anything on that count.

Apples to apples…  Cochran makes a good point! If women can claim that Coram Deo trumps Coram Mundo, then why can’t men do the same? Let’s entertain this perspective for just a moment to see what this would look like.

“I’m a short, obese man with Asperger’s, 45 years old, uneducated, unemployed, alcoholic, and living in the basement of my parents house. Ever since I was 13, I’ve done nothing but play video games and jerk off to internet p0rn all day. Recently I just got saved! I’m going to AA, and getting sobered up (mostly). I’ve dropped the p0rn too (kinda sorta). But hey, Jesus loves me! I’m a new creation in Christ! So now, I should have a voluptuous supermodel Christian wife who loves to suck my 3 inch dong all day!”

Somehow, we know this just won’t fly. But incredibly, women have the audacity to demand this same kind of nonsense from men!  ROFLMAO!!!

Believe it or not, this is the same man!

The Two-Ring Circus of Life

There seems to be two rings in the circus of life. One ring is the spiritual realm, in which the Holy Spirit works inside an individual to restore his/her fellowship with God and make him/her more Christ-like. This is all up to God. The other ring is the socio-sexual realm, in which what an individual does with him/herself in this world with whatever God has given him/her. This is all up to the individual.

Just like Barnum and Bailey’s famous three-ring circus, the events in each ring happen simultaneously and independently. But the events in each ring are also broadly coordinated with the others such to make up the entire presentation. Things that happen in one ring can and do affect what happens in the other.

For some people, namely those who had a good upbringing, the cause and effect relationship between the two is easily discernable. But for others, usually those from broken or dysfunctional homes, it might take years of trying and testing (and screwing up their lives) to figure it all out. Speaking from experience, generational curses can introduce a load of falsehood which is difficult to identify, clouds the understanding, and skews the perception of reality. I can recommend a liturgy of reading for those who are up against such a challenge.

Concluding Statements

Many false arguments have arisen because people ignorantly confuse Coram Mundo and Coram Deo.  They have the notion that if one is pure and spotless before God, then the same person should also be pure and spotless before men.  But it just isn’t so.

Similarly, people like to believe that if a person is attractive and popular, then such a person is good, even “godly”, whatever that might mean.  There might be some correlation when we look at broad averages.  But technically, there is no such association.

God is interested in a person’s spiritual constitution.  Man is interested in a woman’s sexual constitution.  There is a difference whether people want to accept this or not.  Contrary to what any popular culture stresses, there is no true moral compunction imposed by recognizing this difference.  Wisdom dictates that a man must consider the entire constitution of a woman he proposes to marry.  The same holds true vice versa. Coram Mundo.

For those who cling to the hope that God is somehow going to transform fornicators, Harley McBadboys, Chadwick Edcads, Karens, Katies, s1luts, wh0res, carousel riders, and single mothers into righteous, faithful, Christian husbands, wives, fathers, and mothers, do not be disappointed when this fails to pass.  If it does come to pass, then such an event is no small miracle by the grace of God.  Such individuals have made their decision about who they are, and therefore, God, in his righteous justice, is bound to respect their choices, thereby allowing them to experience all the joys, sorrows, and consequences, good and bad, of such a choice.  It is not for us to determine the outcome of another soul’s constitution according to our desires, needs, and willful expectations.

Why should so many men wish to reward a woman’s sexual indiscretions with the honor of matrimony and the lifelong investment of marriage?  The very idea is foolish, even ludicrous, and challenges the justice of God.  Do not condone their desperate deceit and defraudation.  Do not give ear to the frantic pleas of those who must needs pay the piper after prancing the dance of the faithless.  Instead, let God do His work.  Let their sufferings lead them to repent from their ways.  After all, they chose this path in life.  There will always be motorcycles, fuzzy cats, and red wine to take up the slack. Coram Mundo.

For those who desire purity and a pure marriage partner, for those who wish to avoid the consequences of sexual sin and obtain full sanctification in marriage, it should be stressed that you must necessarily accept all the sorrows and loneliness that accompany obedience, and that you will need to make difficult decisions in vetting for a spouse. Coram Mundo.

May God have mercy on our souls, Coram Deo.


About Jack

Jack is a world traveling artist, skilled in trading ideas and information, none of which are considered too holy, too nerdy, nor too profane to hijack and twist into useful fashion. Sigma Frame Mindsets and methods for building and maintaining a masculine Frame
This entry was posted in Choosing a Partner or Spouse, Courtship and Marriage, Culture Wars, Decision Making, Discerning Lies and Deception, Discernment, Wisdom, Enduring Suffering, Fundamental Frame, Hypergamy, Maturity, Personal Growth and Development, Models of Failure, Purity Culture, Relationships, Sanctification & Defilement, Self-Concept, The Power of God, Vetting Women and tagged . Bookmark the permalink.

23 Responses to Coram Mundo vs. Coram Deo

  1. Ed Hurst says:

    I went out on a limb when I chose my spouse: I tried my best to listen to my convictions and discount my fleshly inclinations. It has worked out quite well. It’s one thing to admit a recovering sinner into your fellowship socially; it’s quite another to attempt to build a marriage covenant with any of those same people. It’s not a question of purity, but suitability.

    Liked by 1 person

  2. When you hold your breath waiting for those type of miracles, you will most likely turn blue and pass out.

    Liked by 3 people

  3. AngloSaxon says:

    I get irritated by those who say that women’s sexual sin doesn’t matter to God because he’s so merciful and forgiving and stuff. Yahweh wanted non virgin Levite girls burned at the stake!


  4. lastmod says:

    Basically “Once a ho always a ho…..sure jesus loves you, but you deserve nothing but contempt from fellow men”

    Plenty of men on / in sphere have had plent of sexual partners…..and that’s okay eviudently. He’s a “real man” and “he repented and its okay now”
    If I was told by the Salvation Army, once an addict, drunk and untrustworthy person, always an untrustworthy person, addict and a drunk well, I probably would have not even TRIED to turn my life around.

    I wish I was more gifted in my writing to explain to you on how elitiest, ridiculous, and smug you sound. You think the “unsaved masses of men” and men like myself would even consider coming back to “church” and “loving jesus more than anything” with this claptrap? You guys have made even christianity a club and closed place for only a few.

    You may claim different, but to most who would read this who knew little about Christianity or are trying to understand would say “that place isn’t for me, why would I want to live in shame for the rest of my life? No second chances or hope, or even a chance.”


    • Jack says:

      @ Lastmod,
      I suppose anyone could always come up with all kinds of indignant reasons NOT to trust God and pursue fellowship. But those who find reasons to the contrary (reasons to trust God and find fellowship) stand a better chance in life.


  5. lastmod says:

    All the apostles were killed for their faith….was that god’s “amazing plan” for their life? They left their familes, their careers and livlihoods to follow Jesus. If a person leaves their past behind, and all that once was……to come to a place to just be reminded of it? You can have it. I’ve had more “one with the universe” moments while hiking and camping. I had more clarity when I started actually trying to live my life and not serving a god who could care less about any of my needs. Standing a better chance? Well, at what? Most of christian history they were poor, and illiterate but had a HOPE of something better. “courtly love” didn’t take this hope away………..

    Anyway, I appreciate your reply. I am actually trying to help.


  6. elspeth says:

    Watch who men marry to determine what they desire in a marriage partner, not what they say they’d do if they had it to do over again in obscure corners of the Internet.

    Liked by 1 person

    • thedeti says:

      The vast majority of men take what they can get. Men marry what they can attract for marriage.

      Women have vastly more choice than men do.

      Who do men actually marry? Who they can get. Men aren’t getting what they “desire”, they’re getting whatever they can. Desire’s got scant little to do with it.

      Liked by 2 people

  7. “Do Single Christian Men Owe Marriage to Single Christian Moms?”

    I don’t understand the question. Why would any man “owe” anything to any woman?

    “1. Single Christian moms are as pure as the sinless Son of God, which is more than you deserve in a wife.”
    Then there is no problem for Christian men. These women are too good for the men in the church. They need to go out and find men actually deserving of them. I’ve heard that Mars needs women.

    Liked by 2 people

    • feeriker says:

      “1. Single Christian moms are as pure as the sinless Son of God, which is more than you deserve in a wife.”
      Then there is no problem for Christian men. These women are too good for the men in the church. They need to go out and find men actually deserving of them. I’ve heard that Mars needs women.

      If Christian men are not deserving of washed-up, semi-repentent slores, then that leaves only men of the world as alternatives who do deserve them. Problem solved. Full circle achieved. In fact, this begs the question of why there this is even an issue worthy of angst, discussion, and time to begin with.

      Liked by 1 person

  8. bee123456 says:

    My mother had a “born-again” saving experience several years after she was married. She began reading the Bible, getting more involved in church, attending a weekly home Bible Study, listening to Christian Radio. Several years after that she heard a sermon that said women should submit to their husbands. She heard it, and immediately rejected it. Decades later she told my wife that she said to herself, “I am not going to do that!” And I could tell by observing my parents marriage that she did not submit to her husband; she made major decisions without consulting him, and she acted cold towards him. They drifted apart but never divorced.

    The born-again saving experience is just the start of a journey. The Christian life is a life long journey of gentle nudges to increasing obedience, increasing faith, increasing joy, and increasing suffering. Like my mother, women at your church can be Christians but can have compartmentalized areas that they refuse to trust and obey God in. Vetting is necessary to specifically discern their personal convictions about submission and respect for a potential husband.

    Liked by 2 people

    • thedeti says:

      “Born again” means having a change of heart. The conversion experience to Christ should be just that – conversion. It means there is a change in that person.

      With all due respect to your mom, she didn’t change, ergo, it’s likely she wasn’t truly “born again”.

      Liked by 1 person

      • feeriker says:

        If we’re completely honest with ourselves, we’ll all admit that this describes the vast majority of the people we know who call themselves “‘born-again’ Christians.”

        Liked by 4 people

  9. lastmod says:

    Most men cant waste ten years vetting and testing….going on a date…..reading and decoding IOI’s and the “secret language of women” while in trade school / college / loving jesus-more-than-anything, working part time or full time through this….handling a budget and still expected to serve and “be a leader” in church, maintain his hobbies or things he likes to do all before the age of 24 and land a good career and have his whole life mission planned and figured out. He has ti vett, investigate everything about potential future girlfriend (find her prom date from five years earlier and interview him, along with every man she met since 10th grade or whatever).

    None of this matters though if you are Scott or some natural Alpha or good looking guy.

    This is the dating world today in and out of church. A world where 80% are deemed “meh” and even if you vett……she still could divorce you…..and some putz here in this sphere will still say you are a “beta” for marrying this or that one. Impossible standards for the average guy. Marriage is an elite thing in and out of the church…..and some of the reason why it is…?frankly is because of some of the advice in these forums.

    I know its simple and easy to do right?


    • Ed Hurst says:

      The advice is based on assumptions that you appear to reject. If you aren’t going to walk with us, you’ll have to work it out on your own.

      Liked by 4 people

  10. Pingback: Idolatry Refugees in the Church Marriage Market | Do What's Right

  11. Pingback: Patheological Weddingsday – What is Purity Actually About? | Σ Frame

  12. Pingback: Patheological Weddingsday – When wanton treachery brings shame, not honor. | Σ Frame

  13. Pingback: Redemption and Sexual Healing | Σ Frame

  14. redpillboomer says:

    I’m thankful that many years ago when I was attending a large singles group in a fairly large midwestern city that there was no preaching that I can recall along the lines of ‘Manning up and marrying those sluts,’ i.e. the single mom’s, the Born Again CC riders, the divorced women trying to find their ‘soulmate,’ etc. What is interesting to me as I look back is what went on in my brain back then; and I mean subconsciously, not consciously. I had quite a few dates, all church going, singles ministry involved ‘Christian’ women–a hot, sexy 25 year old current CC rider (how I knew that is subject for another post), a 29 year old, voluptuous CC jumper, 29 year old woman who’d been a ‘good church girl’ from her youth, 31 year old ‘single again woman’ with no kids, etc. Now mind you, my mindset was as Blue Pill as they come at the time. I can now see looking back that my hind brain got involved in the selection process; and just like the Manosphere trope, ending up selecting…drum roll…the 21 year old, debt-free, tattoo less, virgin. One hurdle I had to get over was the struggle with why I, a 30 year old man at the time, would not select the women my age, but ended up ‘robbing the cradle’ as it was literally called back then. Still married to the same girl 31 years later. I’m very thankful that the church, and it’s single’s ministry that I attended, had not apparently devolved into what is being preached to Christian young men today about marrying single moms and repentant CC riders. I don’t know if this church was an anomaly for the time, or that this apparently widespread Churchian preaching directed at single Christian men had not penetrated the church world that deeply yet. It seems like in the last three decades this preaching to young single men in the church has just gone ‘off the rails’ and devolved into a pure shaming doctrine that could literally be setting them up for a lifetime of marital hell or divorce raping. Oh, the other four women I mentioned above, as I look back on it, the chances I’d still be married to one to the present day occur to me as slim-to-none. I dodged a bullet back then for sure! I could have easily been taken out if I’d married one of them. Three decades ago the late twenties/early thirties women were already toting a lot of baggage around, with the way things are nowadays, the baggage must look like an airport luggage carousel as it goes round and round before the young men’s eyes.


  15. Pingback: Commonalities of Successful Marriages | Σ Frame

  16. Pingback: Is Our Fallen Nature as God Designed it? | Σ Frame

  17. Pingback: The Biblical Adage of “Dying to Self” is not Ego Ablation | Σ Frame

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: Logo

You are commenting using your account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s