What’s good for the goose is bad for the gander.

A discussion of the Faithlessness of Immaturity and the Hopelessness of Gender Inequality.

Readership: The Married; Men interested in LTR’s; Christians;

Note: The original proverb is, “Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander”.  John Ray included this expression in his 1678 proverb collection and termed it “a woman’s Proverb”.  An early assertion of sexual equity, it has since been applied both in instances of male and female and in more general terms.

In a previous post, This means WAR!!! (2019 December 19), I described a rather embarrassing interaction with my wife, but I thought it good to share because it was an excellent example of a technique in Wife-Management which I called, “Pushing the Line” (2018 February 27).

My wife is one of those people who, when she is good, she is very, very good, and when she is bad, she is horrid!

Nikolai Vladivostok from Soviet Men left the following reaction.

“Imagine if you’d been the one who got drunk, received happy messages from your old college friend, then got envious and starting blaming your wife for your comparative dissatisfaction and worked yourself up into such a fury that you started cursing her.  And then starting throwing things on the floor in a rage, including her phone.

And then scowled at her the next day when she mentioned it instead of immediately sobering up, abjectly apologizing, getting her a fantastic new phone and promising on your life never to do such a stupid thing again.  And hoping like hell that she’d eventually forgive you.  Oh, and promising to get your drinking and temper under control, and taking proactive steps towards doing that.

Imagine instead that you needed your wife to find the right moment to coax you into doing what you obviously needed to do as a responsible adult.  Imagine, when she so coaxed you, that you initially defended yourself by again blaming her for all the problems in your life as the good reason why you needed to break her phone.

In the two months since the incident, imagine you kept whining about her cooking or cleaning or something, instead of acting like you’re in the doghouse.

I think if you smashed your wife’s phone on the ground two months previously, you would not have cheerfully forgotten about it.  Rather, it would be weighing heavily upon your mind.”

Nikolai is using the logical technique of Role Reversal, a classic approach in the men’s sphere.  Next, he poses the following, very sobering questions that I’ve pondered many times over the course of my marriage.

“Taken together, would you consider this acceptable behaviour on your part?  Would she have been unreasonable to have walked out on you?  What would your family have said if they found out you’d smashed your wife’s phone in an envious, drunken rage, and blamed her for all your unhappiness?  What would your friends have said?  Your readers?

If it would not be acceptable behaviour from you, why is it okay from her?  Do you expect less from women in general?  Or do you think you’re not worthy of greater respect than this?”

To answer Nikolai’s question about putting the shoe on the other foot, if I was the more immature person, then I would want my spouse to stick with me while I was maturing.

As a Christian, I have to believe in the sanctity of marriage.  But to be honest, at times like this, I do find myself thinking, “Why should I put up with all this $#!+?  What am I getting out of this?  How does this glorify God or fulfill His will?”

AWALT

“My blood is still boiling because you’re obviously a decent bloke who deserves much better.  You are perfectly within your rights to demand better behaviour, not coax it, because you’d never expect anyone to put up with such bullshit from yourself.  Not one tenth of it.

That you did not seem shocked in this story suggests that this is a pattern of behaviour that you have become accustomed to.  I am writing this comment, with the roles reversed, so that you might see it as an outsider would.

Finally, I’m confused as to why other commenters were so blase about it.  Especially Adam – I thought he’d be the one giving you this screed.  What the hell is going on.”

The reason why other commenters were not surprised is basically because AWALT.  The exceptions to this rule fall into generally three categories, for better or for worse.

  1. Depression, dysthymia, or some other psychological condition.
  2. The woman’s true nature is repressed due to cultural conditioning, which may involve a legalistic adherence to religious principles, and/or a long standing fear of punishment.
  3. The woman has achieved a noteworthy level of spiritual and emotional maturity.

The first state is a mental disorder, and a person with such a condition should be rejected as a potential mate.  If you’re already married to such a person, then you have basically two choices.

  1. Bear the burden. Stick with the person and tough it out.  Seek help.  Pray for their recovery.  Hope for the best.
  2. Dump the sad sack and go find someone better.

Of course, the Christian choice would be the first.

The second state listed earlier might appear favorable, but it’s a time bomb waiting for the right combination of conditions before it goes off in a fit of dissipation.

The third state is rare and precious, because it requires a lifetime of investment from her family and social community, as well as a long series of good decisions on her part, starting from adolescence.  This state is the most favorable option when choosing a potential LTR partner.  One potential problem with this state is that it is entirely up to the good will of the woman (and the grace of God) for her to continue in this state.

Women are wild geese, and so is a marriage to one

You might think you know a woman before you get married, but you don’t really know what marriage will be like until after you’ve been married a few years.  Also, marriage changes people, and you don’t know whether those changes will be positive or negative.  I believe marriage is supposed to minimize the number of random variables, but you still don’t know the values of those variables.

You won’t really know until the end of your life when all is said and done, after you invest your years into whatever you’ve chosen.

You don’t know how many children you might have, or none at all.

For some women, you can’t even know how chaste she is.  You can’t know if she has an IUD, or gets an abortion.  There are too many unknowns.

Red flags might be indicators of something, but you don’t always know whether those indicators are true, or if it’s much worse than the indicators indicate.  Red flag indicators are like scatterplot science.  You never know if you have an outlier, or whether she’s above or below the norm.  Women’s biology and even their cognizant awareness is designed to keep you in the dark.  Feminine Machiavellianism, Solipsism, Gaslighting, and fitness tests make it all the more confusing.

My father once told me that it is impossible to know how good or bad your marriage is.  Because you only have one wife, there’s nothing you can compare your marriage to as a reference.  All you can go on is your own subjective experience.

This form of blindness might either be a blessing, or an Achilles heel, depending on how mature your wife is.

Moreover, you don’t know the performance of an investment until you cash out.  Most investments fail, but some win big.  How do you know the result?  How do you know you would have done better with a different investment (woman)?  How do you know you wouldn’t have done any worse?

You just have to go on faith – and the willpower of commitment.

Conclusions

Concerning faith and commitment, Jason’s and Derek’s stance should take on a new significance in light of the above discussion.  Derek said,

”…the Meet Cute approach can be beneficial or detrimental, but that—in comparison—respecting one’s vows is more important.  Jason’s stance is, as far as I can tell from witnessing dozens or hundreds of marriages, is the most important component of a successful marriage.”

Jason’s stance is as follows.

“One of the most plain truths I got from the bible was “have your yes mean yes and your no mean no” […] My parents knew each other six months and married.  My mom always said “your father and I never kept a match or score on each other.” My dad always said “Your mother and I just took our wedding vows seriously.  It was a promise before family, friends and god.  It was just understood, and especially after your older brother… we only had each other… we had to make it work.”

However, commitment in marriage is little more than a prison sentence if your wife is horrendously immature.  Adam, being the good Catholic that he is, said he would have kicked her out.  Sharkly’s preconclusion under Probabilities (2020-2-24) also rings true here.

“Relationships are not usually controlled by what you do as a man and a leader, the relationship is always controlled by the least emotionally mature partner.  The relationship cannot grow above the point that the least mature partner will not sustain.  So, if the man is the weak link, he can improve things, by getting his act together.  But, in our generation, most of the time, the entitled victim spoiled feminist goddess (daughter of the King) is the more emotionally stunted one.  So, almost all progress in the marriage is dependent on her maturing in Christ.  You as a husband can do cartwheels, send smoke signals, hire a psychologist, call a prayer meeting, drop hints, but until your wife chooses to grow up, or has an epiphany, you’re stuck having the level of development in your marriage dictated by that rebellious immature girl’s selfish choices.

But should I divorce my wife, kick her out, or abandon her because I can’t tolerate her immaturity?  Unfortunately (?), spiritual immaturity is not one of the reasons given in the Bible as a justification of divorce.  Hence, the God-ordained prison sentence – or so it seems.

Sometimes, I feel I could sum up the majority of posts on this blog as, How to deal with a spiritually immature wife in a Christian manner.

Maintain Frame, experiment with Game… Suffer, hope, pray, wait…

A man really needs faith and a strong purpose to stick with it over the long haul.

I can see how this would seem utterly stupid to many men, but it certainly builds character, if nothing more.

Personally, I believe marriage is intended (maybe by God) to be a crucible of refinement leading to both our greater maturity.  If you panic and cash in your investment at the worst time by getting out of the relationship, then you obviously take a loss, and you lose any earnings that may have come in the future.

I’m happy to report that I do see my wife continually making small advances in her spiritual life, gaining ground here and there in starts and bursts, although it does seem to happen at a snail’s pace.

Rome wasn’t built in a day.

Related

About Jack

Jack is a world traveling artist, skilled in trading ideas and information, none of which are considered too holy, too nerdy, nor too profane to hijack and twist into useful fashion. Sigma Frame Mindsets and methods for building and maintaining a masculine Frame
This entry was posted in Choosing a Partner or Spouse, Courtship and Marriage, Determination, Discipline, Disorders, Enduring Suffering, Game Theory, Handling Rejection, Holding Frame, Influence, Introspection, Leadership, Love, Maturity, Personal Growth and Development, Models of Success, Perseverance, Purpose, Relationships, Stewardship, Strategy and tagged , . Bookmark the permalink.

22 Responses to What’s good for the goose is bad for the gander.

  1. Adam says:

    I never said that I would have divorced her. But she would have been out of the house until she came crawling back.

    Liked by 1 person

  2. Sharkly says:

    Nikolai Vladivostok says: Finally, I’m confused as to why other commenters were so blase about it. Especially Adam – I thought he’d be the one giving you this screed. What the hell is going on.”

    I totally am with you, Nikolai Vladivostok. I remember that post! As I read it, it sounded like Jack was in some blue-pill pussy-whipped denial and cucking himself so hard, that I didn’t think I should comment because I’d have been harsher than you. Granted, if you believe like I do, once you enter marriage, “You’re stuck like Chuck!” But yeah, I didn’t want to shit all over Jack and just tell him to grow a pair, or second guess another man on how he should lay down the law with his own wife. So out of respect, I just held myself back from commenting then. We should probably all pray for Jack and his wife’s marriage. That’s some rotten stuff to have to be dealing with.

    Jack says: The reason why other commenters were not surprised is basically because AWALT.
    No, Jack, I was real surprised! And I was even embarrassed for you. It seemed like you were enabling her to behave like a brat. My wife is crazy and evil, but, in a very different sort of way.
    I understand you’ve got to try to make peace and live in tranquility as best you know how, and you know your own wife and situation best, but I repeat, I was shocked when I read that post, and thought, it sounds like Jack is way too allowing and enabling of her atrocious behavior. I’m saying a prayer for you and your wife, Jack, as I submit this comment.

    Like

  3. lastmod says:

    My parents actually enjoyed each others company. Neither of them really had friends ourside their marriage. Sure dad now and then would have a beer with his crew from what ever construction job he was on. Yes….mom on that rare occasion would have lunch with a few ladies from work or a co worker. My parents really didnt have any friends. Arguments happened growing up……but very, very rare. My parents were not like Scott’s marriage where sex is frequent, amazing and always great. But my parents would read alound many a night. Long talks. Laughter. We ate every night at a dinner table. TV off. I dont know how or if my mothers “visceral” look was good or correct or right toy father. Doesnt matter now. I dont know why my mother went for my dad. He was much older and working part time pumping gas when he “met cute” (my mom). Sometimes its just luck.

    One of my mistakes growing up was thinking most people had marriages like this and this was normal. How wrong was I 😉

    Liked by 4 people

  4. Scott says:

    If you have children and are not OK with the risk of never seeing them again, you have to manage the occasional temper tantrum the best you can. It’s the reason MGTOWs, plate spinners and all those guys exist. They feel it is not worth it, and there is no arguing with that proposition.

    Liked by 1 person

    • SFC Ton says:

      A man has to be ok with not seeing his chidlern etc or he automatically cedes frame and power to the woman and the state. Which won’t end well. If you are going to try the marriage a family life game, she has to be 100% certian you will burn everything to the ground, leave the country and never return before you act like her little bitch and bow to the state

      Liked by 2 people

  5. Sharkly says:

    FWIW I know I’ve had blind spots in my own marriage and, I tolerated shit I should never have tolerated. And sometimes you think something might work and you just try it to see if it will work, after you’ve tried everything else you can think to try. Being married to some women is just going to be really tough even for the best of men. And sometimes there is little or nothing that will work. Hosea the only man ever selected by God to illustrate God’s own love through marriage, couldn’t get his wife to quit being a total flagrant whore who openly despised him through her whoring and bastard brood of children born of other men while she was Hosea’s wife. Even God’s own love won’t work on some rebellious women. Please understand Jack, that I’m glad you’re trying, I’m glad you’re fighting the good fight. I wouldn’t know exactly what to do in your situation either. And I do respect your efforts, and your quest to find something that will work. In suffering through this and trying your best to redeem your wife and cleanse her from her wickedness, you are living out the love of Jesus Christ. I didn’t mean to come across that I’m not respectful of your efforts. I really do feel for you brother, and I wish your wife would see you for the man that you are, the image of God, and treat you better as you certainly deserve.

    Liked by 2 people

  6. lastmod says:

    When my parents did have a sometimes serious discussion or argument they were trying to keep from my brother and I away from……..they would take their argument, sit in the car in the garage, or in the truck. Their arguments as I recall were always about “money” for the most part, and the lack of it. My father being a Union carpenter was affected by recessions quickly. Construction slowed or stopped? Unemployed he was (shame on him, he should have studied to be a lawyer, or NASA scientist, entered the STEM field….lol). The hospital bills for my brother caused a lot of strain as well at times.

    If a discussion was serious enough and I was old enough to notice…..they would let me know what happened (when I was an older teenager) and would both calmly discuss what they both decided together. “No summer camp this year son….it’s a bit too dear” from my mother. My dad was say stuff like “We’re both on the same page here. With your summer job, we are expecting you to help out a little bit with your paycheck.”

    Always a united front……even when I could tell one of them really wasn’t 100% on board with the other

    Liked by 2 people

  7. cobaltsheath says:

    If we take it as a given that wives, and women in general, will act a certain way that we don’t like, it’s not blase to accept that. Accepting human behavior “as is” means we have a healthy relationship with our biological wiring. It would be unreasonable to expect perfection from them, or anyone. What matters more is that: 1) you have boundaries as defined by your personal convictions, and 2) you make clear and enforce those boundaries with your wife. You can gather advice on what your boundaries should be but it’s up to us as men to determine what they are, and if those behavioral boundaries are crossed, and what the consequences should be.

    Like

  8. JPF says:

    A marriage team that disagrees on ideas, but works together on the decision made… Truly a blessing.

    Liked by 1 person

  9. larryzb says:

    “Sometimes, I feel I could sum up the majority of posts on this blog as, How to deal with a spiritually immature wife in a Christian manner.”

    Yes, that is a major challenge for Christian husbands in these times. Keep the faith and stay in the struggle.

    Liked by 1 person

  10. feeriker says:

    One of my mistakes growing up was thinking most people had marriages like this and this was normal. How wrong was I 😉

    Ditto. My parents had what I consider the perfect Christian marriage, one that lasted 53 years until my dad’s death from cancer. They set the bar very high and I tried my hardest to emulate it, but instead wound up tripping over it. I’d certainly do things differently if I could go back in time and have a “do-over.” Sadly, we live in a different era than our parents did, one where not only society, but, tragically, the “church” is in a state of decay that not only does not foster, but actively sabotages healthy marriage.

    My prayers are with you, Jack. I’ve been in your shoes and it’s a pair that every married man is likely to walk in at some point in his marriage. May God touch your wife’s heart and set her on the path of righteousness and may He give you peace and comfort in this time of trial.

    Liked by 4 people

  11. bee123456 says:

    “I’m happy to report that I do see my wife continually making small advances in her spiritual life, gaining ground here and there in starts and bursts, although it does seem to happen at a snail’s pace.

    Rome wasn’t built in a day.”

    It sounds to me like you are doing a good job. All wives are immature and need to grow. I think what you are experiencing is fairly common. My late wife, recently deceased, threw temper tantrums but she slowly grew over time and became very peaceful and calm later in life. Keep doing what you are doing.

    On another post you said that most Christian guys would be better off wifing up a thin, Buddhist girl and guiding her to be a Christian (going by memory here, so please excuse if I have this wrong). Was your wife a Christian when you married her? Is she a Christian now?

    Like

  12. bee123456 says:

    I would like to add;

    My wife’s spiritual growth appeared to be exponential. Not much apparent progress in the early years of our marriage, lots of progress and growth the last 7 years.

    Liked by 1 person

  13. “My father once told me that it is impossible to know how good or bad your marriage is. Because you only have one wife, there’s nothing you can compare your marriage to as a reference. All you can go on is your own subjective experience.”

    Was most of his married life spent on a deserted island? Or maybe a hidden moon base?

    Liked by 1 person

  14. Ed Hurst says:

    Men have different levels of tolerance, and it may vary for particular types of feminine shenanigans. And at different stages in our life mission, the situation itself may call for varying levels of tolerance that would change sometime down the road. No man knows whether another man is disappointing our Creator; he can only know his own convictions and tolerances. However, I rejoice that Jack is able to handle his own wife in ways that sure do sound like a blessing from God.

    Liked by 4 people

  15. rontomlinson2 says:

    I get where the AWALT concept comes from but it seems unfair to regard female nature as feral. Women have always existed in families and cultures and they were conditioned by those. As a husband or potential husband it’s your job to court her and to tame her. Hopefully it won’t take long and won’t require smashing her phone (though perhaps confiscation may be appropriate at some point!) A line from Petruchio explains why: “Marry, peace it bodes, and love, and quiet life and awful rule, and right supremacy and, to be short, what not that’s sweet and happy?” (The Taming of the Shrew, Act 5 Scene 2)

    Like

    • SFC Ton says:

      Women no longer receive that kind of conditioning and have demonstrated their feral nature. For generations now.

      Women are inferior to men. Expecting anything like a better nature out of one is setting yourself up for failure. Given the pimp hand gets you jail time and her misbehaviour is cheered on by friends, family, the media, the state etc the best you can achieve is her fearing of loosing you is stronger then her feral nature/ the support system empowering her feral nature

      Liked by 5 people

      • JPF says:

        I would add her own moral character to the list of items that can prevent a catastrophe. Granted, women in general do not receive trying to that effect in this culture, as you have pointed out. But there are exceptions, and there are other cultures from which to seek a worthy bride.

        Like

      • SFC Ton says:

        LOL women don’t have morals. Thinking like that is going to cause a man problems

        They have a biologically progamred mission; take in alpha jizz; crank out alpha babies and extract resources from beta males.

        Liked by 1 person

  16. rontomlinson2 says:

    Yes, wickedness reigns in the mainstream which has all but given up responsibility for and honesty about our women. However it would be a mistake to think that the right kind of conditioning requires brutality. A Christian loves his wife and has the advantage of spiritual discernment. The closer the connection the less severity is ever needed and the greater the available privacy to protect him.

    Furthermore, if he can navigate through this and fulfil his responsibility then the prize is greater now than in the past (when he held the upper hand economically and legally). His authority will be upheld by a deeper consent and greater happiness all round will be the result.

    Like

    • JPF says:

      However it would be a mistake to think that the right kind of conditioning requires brutality. A Christian loves his wife

      SFC Ton did not say “brutal”, so let’s not look for an edge-case to excuse the need for any conditioning/training.

      Your comment re love suggests that you think disciplining a girl / young woman / wife is not consistent with loving a wife. The Bible shows the opposite. For example:
      Proverbs 3:
      11My son, do not despise the Lord ‘s
      discipline and do not resent his rebuke,
      12because the Lord disciplines those he
      loves, as a father the son he delights in.

      Hebrews 12:
      5And you have forgotten that word of
      encouragement that addresses you as
      sons: “My son, do not make light of the
      Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart
      when he rebukes you,
      6because the Lord disciplines those he
      loves, and he punishes everyone he
      accepts as a son.”
      7Endure hardship as discipline; God is
      treating you as sons. For what son is not
      disciplined by his father?
      8If you are not disciplined (and everyone
      undergoes discipline), then you are
      illegitimate children and not true sons.
      9Moreover, we have all had human
      fathers who disciplined us and we
      respected them for it. How much more
      should we submit to the Father of our
      spirits and live!
      10Our fathers disciplined us for a little
      while as they thought best; but God
      disciplines us for our good, that we may
      share in his holiness.
      11No discipline seems pleasant at the
      time, but painful. Later on, however, it
      produces a harvest of righteousness
      and peace for those who have been
      trained by it.

      Ephesians 5:
      25Husbands, love your wives, just as
      Christ loved the church and gave
      himself up for her
      26to make her holy, cleansing her by the
      washing with water through the word,
      27and to present her to himself as a
      radiant church, without stain or wrinkle
      or any other

      God bless.

      Like

  17. rontomlinson2 says:

    JPF, thank you. I think we (you, me, SFC Ton) are essentially in agreement here.

    Discipline is necessary, including physical discipline if appropriate. But neither brutality nor the ‘pimp hand’ are required if by those we mean excessive force or something not motivated by love. For example, by the desire to exploit for money.

    I would emphasise that the physical component isn’t sufficient or even the most effective part. Women can tolerate great pain. It’s the emotional signal such as a temporary withdrawal of affection and regard which is most effective and communicates the rejection of evil. This is the part they crave. And one can’t withdraw affection if there was little affection to begin with…

    The pimp is blind here. The mainstream chump is blind. The Christian man has the advantage: he is capable, with inner guidance, of taking a feral woman to the point where no physical force need ever be used again.

    Not only can women tolerate pain, they don’t want to live by explicit rules or hide behind legalisms. So a man need not be afraid of recent laws in this regard, provided he utterly rejects the spirit behind them.

    Yes, men are superior, as SFC and Petruchio aver. I don’t think that women have a feral nature since in nature no woman lives outside of family and tribe. Their nature reflects the culture they live in. Their behaviour has become feral lately because the mainstream has turned evil and is failing them. But this is only a quibble on my part.

    Thanks for the opportunity to develop my thinking.

    Liked by 1 person

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